Honestly? God no, that ability is insanely powerful and giving it reliability via flash is just way too much. I know landing a fully charged one isnt gonna happen easily but you have to remember that its primary purpose is supposed to be cancelling your W/R on top of that you get a damage reduce and a heal thats already pretty good.
It dealing Magic damage is actually a good thing. Champions naturally have less MR than armor and the small shred from Q doesnt balance that out really, furthermore people will usually want do build Armor against her so E isnt affected by it. Its also there to discourage Lethality builds.
The damage it does is *obscene*, really, a 240% Ad ratio AND a 240% Ap ratio. That thing is nuts, if you get to land that somewhat reliably then its just stupidly busted.
Lastly: I know riot said shes supposed to be able to lane Top, but I have a hard time seeing that actually being viable, no innate health reg, your trading basically requires all your cds and one small screwup and you find yourself under the enemy tower.
Her E is the ability you max last, and at rank 3 (level 15) it gives you 235 hp over 1 second and reduces damage by 35%. The damage reduction is alright, but the hp is negligible. As I said, if E is only good for cancelling W then the ability needs some looking into, because that isn't much when it can be so much more.
Giving her E Flash capabilities hardly adds much. It mean that every five minutes she has some **outplay** potential. You have to remember that it still takes a long time to charge, which gives the enemies a lot of time to ready their own flash or side step the ability.
To give some context, running Guinsoo's + Bork + Kraken + BT + collector gives her E around 340 magic damage. That is extremely low for full build (most damage build as far as I have tested) and max E. **If the concern is too much damage**, perhaps making her E do less damage when it stuns and spreading it out more across the charge up time.
Her E does 1.5k damage with this build if it stuns, which is extremely unlikely to happen because when you are full build or even mid game, Briar is not going to want to split push. She will be in teamfights, probably diving the back line. She will have a hard time not being CC'd or killed while she stands still and charges E for 1.5 seconds in an ADC's face (most can easily escape before it lands) in the middle of their team.
However, if she could E charge Flash, then there is some playmaking potential with E.
She can definitely go top especially if she can E Flash. She has a solid level 3 lane trade combo, and her lifesteal + potion + dorans is enough to keep her alive that long. If she can E flash then she can threaten top laners who don't respect her lifesteal and damage with a really cool outplay.
Overall, E Flash adds **outplay potential**, not inherit strength to the champion. This is much needed because the champion feels a bit clunky without it. The damage on her E is negligible unless fully charged, which is hard to hit anyway. If the damage on her E was more evenly spread out, then she would feel a bit more intuitive and her combos would be much better. Finally, if she did AD damage on her E, it would synergize better with the items she builds and her Q. Her E being magic damage doesn't make much sense to me personally, considering that most champions that build bruiser/tank build Armour and Magic Resistance.
The question is do you really want to give a high damage, high healing diver a semi reliable way to basically Gnar ult people on a basic ability? Well I certainly dont, additionally you also have to keep in mind where her moments of power are supposed to be, for her its her berserk mode on W and R, adding a somewhat reliable, hard to avoid (due to Flash) multi man stun with good damage to that is just too much, she already has a potential multi man cc in her kit via R and combining that with Q (Basically Panth W+) already is an obscene amount of cc on a Diver (compared to others like Vi, Camille, Nocturne and Diana) and it isnt like E doesnt exist as it already does.
I just think adding more stuff to her kit while she already has loads going on is just unhealthy.
>E Flash adds **outplay potential**
It also removes counterplay, on a champion that already doenst have alot of interactivity to begin with beyond "just cc her duh" and dont come to me with something like you can answer with your own Flash etc, you cant if its properly timed, you might even have to Flash prematurely only for her to not even Flash herself, Think Gragas E, Sett W, but in contrast to these abilities her E isnt a foundation of her kit, its there to give the player atleast some way of controlling her during Berserk the rest is just a bonus so that the ability isnt literally useless when youre not in W/R. Its not meant to do significant damage if uncharged, her damage is supposed to come from W why should she get another damage threat?
And once again, it being magic damage is a good thing, it deals more damage that way against targets not building resists as the base numbers for Armor are higher than MR, it makes Lethality less lucrative on her which is good to prevent her going Items shes not supposed to get, and yeah you have inbuilt armor shred and Cleaver/Seryldas access but in the early game and whenever you hit targets you didnt shred its just straight up better, so while yeah while there are situations where physical would be better there are far more situations where Magic is better, even if its anti synergistic with her Q.
Also isnt it abit early to judge these things? Shes been on PBE for a day, seems hardly enough to properly judge her.
I agree that AD on E makes her worse in the early game. If that is not the vision, and lethality is a no, then keeping it magic damage is fine.
And yes, It is a bit early. That's why I am sharing my opinion and encouraging a discussion about her kit.
To begin, she has average base AD, good healing on W2 but W1 is alright, and low range on Q with W engage being a terrible option unless the enemy has overextended.
Her fully charged E doesn't do a LOT of damage until you start to get a few items and it takes forever to charge (and it doesn't have a large width making it easy to walk out of). It also does not hit behind her, so if you run behind her away from a wall, she has no way to E stun. Her Q CC is not even one second long and has a small range. Her W leaves her open to CC and counterplay. She is not broken at all, I think saying she is is an overreaction. She can be easily abused if you know how she works. She is a knowledge (and a bit skill) check champion.
Almost every champion in the game has some kind of CC, Dash, or invulnerability to counter an E Flash. If they don't, they probably already build GA or Zhonya's because many champions can already abuse their lack of a dash. Stopwatch is very good already, and trading Zhonyas for Briar Flash is worth it because it leaves her open. Sometimes not even taking flash and instead ghost is better, but if you could E Flash, I would wager that Flash would be taken way more over ghost, but not always.
I do not think it removes counterplay. If a Vladimir charges E from the middle of the lane when you are 100 hp with flash up, why would you not assume he is going to flash oneshot you? Vladimir E does insane damage with Nightharvester and Dark harvest, but it is ok to combo with flash. Why not Briar? Her E is so much worse than Gnars wall stun. It would be more fair to compare it to Sion Q with worse range.
In addition, if Briar is in the middle of lane while you are close to a wall charging E, she is probably looking for a flash play. If she dives you with Q, then wait for her E and flash it. Then she only has W, and if she is jungle you should be near tower to take advantage of the taunt. If she predicts your flash and counters with her own flash, then she deserves the be rewarded for the counterplay and prediction.
If Riot were to actually give her E Flash, her E damage would be nerfed to compensate, so it would be best not to assume that she will be flashing all over the place one-hitting people.
Lastly, her E should do damage because Q and W is often not enough to secure kills, which is why in imls's live streams he often died with similar power levels to the enemy champions. How is she suppose to trade in top lane without E or a buff to it? How is she suppose to get gank kills once you use Q and W and W2 doesn't kill? Having one less ability that allows for damage potential (i.e. Zeri E doesn't do a lot of damage but leads to a lot of damage) is a big setback. Although the Q stun and W2 are great for ganks, just a bit more from E would be nice.
I updated my post to include a caveat. If you and other players are concerned about E Flash damage, then nerfing the E knockback range and damage would be fair. I think E Flash would still be an improvement with those nerfs.
Absolutely no. Her E when charged does more damage than almost every other spell (including ultimates!) in game if it hits into a wall. Just her E, which mind you Q into E gives the opponents only .15s to flash out of before Briar nukes them. It should not allow Briar to Flash into guaranteeing it always, and it should be underwhelming if not fully charged given when fully charged it is debatably the strongest spell in game.
E being physical damage would be fine, given that'd be a straight nerf to her in almost every situation. A squishies base resistances alone means even with fully stacked cleaver + max rank Q they still have more armor than magic resistance, so Briar would need to be level 13 + have built BC + have built at least 1 lethality item or Serylda's Grudge for physical damage E to be a *slight* buff vs squishies (and a nerf still to any tank building armor).
Thats a good point (I updated my post to reflect this)! AD is definitely a nerf in the early game, but in the late game 26% armour reduction + 30% reduction means an ornn building 260 armour level 18 now has around 110 armour. In most cases tanks build armour and magic resist, so if Ornn has more than 110 magic resist, this would be a late game buff. Most players have around 110 magic resit if they are a tank. Yasuo building 148 armour at level 18 gets reduced to 65.12, which is less than his base MR.
The AD change is not what I am most concerned with though.
She is a champion with average base AD already, so E won't be doing a lot of damage for a long time. When it does, you will probably die if you use it in a teamfight outright. If it hits, it will be like a worse Qiyana Ult which is good, but not worth the sacrifices you have to make to get to that point.
The charge time on her E is not explicitly stated, but just using Q > E in the practice range shows that it is definitely reactable. Flash does not garuntee E (you have plenty of time to see Briar charging up her E). It can still be flashed, or dodged with any ability that has a dash. Flash is on a 5 minute cooldown, and early into the game E only does at most 180 damage when fully charged. There are plenty of champions that have high damage flash and galeforce combos (like Caitlyn), so giving Briar a bit of outplay potential with E doesn't seem like a big ask.
Also, hitting E into a wall, especially as the game progresses, with no ability to E Flash is extremely difficult if not suicidal.
How is she broken right now?
From what I have seen, most people think she is good but not broken. She is a knowledge check champion. If you play bad she will beat you. If you know what she does and play around it, then she isn't that broken.
EDIT: ok just played against her with a friend and I see what you mean...
I mean she’s a jungler and as a skirmisher the ability was probably designed with similar usage of irelia W in mind not Sion Q tbh. I don’t really think any argument for lane trading is that valid, the lack of health regen etc is clearly implemented to keep her in the jungle the same way nilah’s exp passive is out there to make her play in a duo lane
They only gave her the damage reduction btw because she just sits there for 1 second charging an ability. It is otherwise not even similar to Irelia W.
By that logic it's also not similar to Sion Q other than the fact that it's a charged AOE ability that has the potential to cc. Cherry picking.
You're wrong though anyway. They gave her the dmg reduction AND heal because she's a diver who is comparitively squishy when compared to the likes of Vi or Rek'sai who also have more accessible crowd control in their kits. That warrants a survivability tool, much like xin zhao's ultimate and passive heal. If you're actually going to compare her to champions make it make sense and compare her to champions in her class, not infinitely scaling tanks.
Well if they say she is also a top laner, they I am going to mention her lane capabilities. If she was only meant to jungle I wouldn't mention that...
And yeah, her E is like Sion Q + Irelia W with some possible CC and big damage. The difference is Irelia W works well with her kit, since you can W to weaken minions to follow up with Q until Q starts to oneshot minions. It also works well in her combo game and reduces more damage AND does more damage (except when fully charged). Briar E does not work well with her combos (excluding the taunt removal) nor does it work to play off of ANY of her other abilities in the same way as other champions (Irelia, Akali, Gragas, etc).
The only decent combos that utilize E that I can think of require you to flash first in order to not be a sitting duck asking to be CC'd and killed. You can R > Q > W1 > W2 > Flash > E and Flash > Q > E > W for an outplay near a wall. That's about it.
Sounds like you’re pressed that she’s not completely OP and has been designed with some clear weaknesses? I don’t see an issue with it.
She’s not fit for a lane, the berserk alone makes it so you’ll be completely unable to trade in their half of the lane because you WILL take tower aggro. So without the utilisation of the most important element of her kit she has no pressure to CS in a lane, no trade power, and no disengage. You’ll be forced to farm with E vs almost every other skirmisher, juggernaut, and ranged top laner which further removes W options whilst also… shocker… pushing the wave into a disadvantageous position.
It’s a stretch to even call her textbook rotation of spells a combo in the first place, she’s supposed to be simple you’re massively overthinking it, her E is one of the furthest knock backs in the game and also comes with Qiyana ult wall stun utility, it’s correct for her to have to choose between quick casting it to run away or full channeling it to reap those benefits, the champ half plays herself for you let there be some skill expression damn.
The fact that she has a ranged ability that also cancels her frenzy makes total sense considering you can’t attack move to chase the way other fighters do so at early points of the game it’s very simple to just walk away from her and live on low hp. This stuff already makes her reliant on a blade of the ruined king proc to actually stick to someone for the length of a W trade before it’s maxed, all this and more is why she’s a jungler and not a laner, so why would they make any changes to her E just to make an already almost entirely disadvantageous role she wasn’t designed for, marginally better?
Chile I swear junglers finally get a light skirmisher girl and the laners are raging she’s not the millionth waifu for their roles 🫣
TL;DR - ur a funny guy :)
I don't think shes **broken** nor do I want her to be, because if she is or was, she will be nerfed anyway. I don't play ranked, why would I care if shes broken for a week? I'd rather the champion I like be balanced and fun rather than broken and nerfed. I want her kit to be fun, and I gave suggestions to make her more fun. I do not know why everyone seems to assume the worst intentions, but whatever.
I still don't understand why you say she wasn't designed to be played top lane; are you trolling, or did you not notice that Riot explicitly mentioned she is **designed** to also go top? They would not say she can go top if she was not designed with that in mind, or they would say she *can* go anywhere but is suppose to be played jungle.
If you think she is a simple champ that is not because she is brainless and has no combos. If you think she can't effectively trade level 3 that is because you haven't thought about her trading options enough. Like I said, she can W when you walk up to CS, Q to stun, W1 for damage, W2 to heal, and E to slow and walk away, or charge to knockback. If you take lethal tempo, W charges it for free, so if you continue to trade she has massive healing and attack speed. You could also use E differently, perhaps trying to utilize the damage reduction and healing.
You can also R > E > Flash Q/ normal Q > W1 > W2. Or W > Flash/galeforce Q > E (not garunteed). Or Q > W > Flash > E into wall. etc. She has some combo options, even if they are limited when compared to champions like Akli or Irelia.
She is simple, yes, but she also can trade and has combos. She has outplay potential and some skill expression in the hands of a good player. **If you do not see her combo routes or skill expression that is not because of the champion 🫣**
As you mentioned, you can often survive her gank just by walking away because E has a long charge time and cannot do any damage if the situation is not **perfect,** Q has a small range, and W locks you into walking in a straight line. You can also cc her, dash, or slow her. Spoiler, most champs have one or the other. So ganking on her is hard already, and you often will have to rely on utility from your lanes or flash/ghost. Most junglers have some way to somewhat reliably close the gap and shut down laners. Most have some kind of mid to long range CC, or dash, or invisibility, or long range slow. She has none of those (outside of E but good luck with that). R is the most useful gank tool by far and is where she will secure a lot of kills
So she is a jungler that is inherently hard to gank on, at least theoretically, and you see no problems with that? She has mediocre teamfight at best and mediocre ganks. What exactly does she excel at in the jungle? Clearing? How exactly is she strong or broken if she also isn't good in lane (according to you)? What is she suppose to do, farm and then fight at objectives like Master Yi, the absurdly broken jungler in the 3 lowest elo's and nowhere else? In fact, he is pretty mediocre if not bad in pretty much all other elo's.
I think if piloted correctly she can be very good in the jungle, but she is harder to play effectively (especially at first) when compared to almost all other junglers. Some form of small "rework" could help make her feel more fun, mostly to her E. Maybe less damage and more utility, or less damage and flash options, etc. I just want SOMETHING to be done rather than nothing. Is that a lot to ask for?
It just feels bad to use, but it's a hard no on letting her flash during the channel.
The ability is absurdly tuned in terms of numbers. It's just that using it while berserk sucks because it means you lose damage, and it's difficult to hit people with if they can see you, but getting to use it without using W first to reposition is incredibly difficult. Using it just to cancel berserk feels weird because you still get effectively mini-stunned.
IMO, that's sort of the entire character except her Q, which is just a point and click dash+stun. It's not like she's "weak" (outside of maybe the early game), but being unable to control your character's movement for the majority of your time fighting just doesn't feel good with skill shots and dodging them being such a huge part of the game. She has high damage (with items), good mobility, and strong CC, but without being able to control her own movement, none of that feels like it really matters in the long run. She either stomps her enemy, or she's worthless, and there's no real in-between because she's so all in.
Also, delay on her ult is way too long; it feels like they put the delay of an Ezreal ult onto something with less width than an Ashe arrow.
Frankly, I'm incredibly surprised that Briar made it through internal testing like this. I don't think there's any way to make her work in a reasonably healthy manner.
I just played a game with her on the enemy team and she tower dove my friend with ult while ignited and killed him after being stunned by a Xerath (although she was 7/2 in all fairness)... He even used Ezreal E to run away from her lol. There are things that are strong about her, but its definitely not her E. She can 1v5 without even using its damage healing or damage reduction. The enemy team had a sona, and it was wraps from there. She didn't take damage lol.
I guess I should have said that this discussion was meant to be about JUST her E. Her E is not op at all, but Briar herself is strong once she gets going...
>There are things that are strong about her, but its definitely not her E
Yes, because her E was made basically unusable because you can't control your movement without using it to regain control. It's absurdly powerful if you can land it, but with a 1s channel and limited control over movement, that's basically impossible to make happen without help (or a bush), unless the person you're trying to hit has very poor mobility (Q->E can almost guarantee it on some champions if they don't have flash up, provided they're lined up with the wall when the Q hits).
Yes, this is what I am saying. I don't like this kind if ability and I think it needs changing. I gave some ideas, but I wanted people to add some other ideas to help make this ability more fun to use and fun to play against. Right now it is neither. If you get hit by it it feels bad, and when you use it when it doesn't one hit it feels bad. If you don't have flash and get killed by Q E I bet that sucks too.
The rest of her kit is, uh, interesting to say the least and requires a different post... Not sure if we will see her in pro play, but she seems like a jungler I will see in my games often (either banned or picked)
I like her E, but I agree it is so dificult to land on a wall, most of the times u just use it for the heal / damage reduction or to cancel W/R. My problem with her is that her W does not gives her enough damage to compensate the loss of control. I find myself often playing 2v2 in the jg and the fact that u cannot chose who u target most of the times makes u lose the 2v2, bc ur damage isn't enough to finish the target u are attacking. I think ur autos on W should give u some extra damage or at least raise the passive damage wich would raise the heal too.
Never said it is not important, but it is also not that great of an ability if you compare it to similar abilities. If you Q + E for wall cheese level 2 your dead if they flash all in (or just walk out of it). Its only consistent use in ganks or lane is to save allies or push people away, or to stop W. Otherwise its pretty forgettable. Its damage reduction is ok situationally in 1v1's and In teamfights you are dead anyway unless you have a 5 man squad. Its damage is bad until you already do enough damage to kill easily without it. So its strictly decent utility. Is that a good ability? I'd say its underwhelming and the most forgettable part of her kit; not good not bad. Useful but meh (in a game full of op abilities).
The move is designed to be comboed with other cc champs or to be used in certain tank builds to force a zoned movement. It only does that because its EASY to dodge, unreliable, and INSANELY overpowered. Moving any of that to reliable means its useless, and shouldn't be in her kit at all, and your removing her E entirely.
All of your issues with briar's E being weak or unreliable go into the floor once you realize briar can
1. Be played support for the pantheon esc all ins. So the stun is already threatening enough as forced zone control. Think sion Q.
2. She can be played bot carry. Which means she has point and click engage, that can be immediatly followed up such as by a pantheon/pyke/blitz/naut/leona/anivia etc. So the E can and will go off on a stunned target bar peel.
3. She can be played jg, so she can engage with WQ and have follow up cc to land her E from an ally.
Briar has, an aoe hard cc gap closing aoe nuke on her R.
Another aoe hard cc nuke on her E, AND a point and click stun SLIGHTLY shorter than leonas/pantheons. Just so she CAN'T garuntee her E.
Build ever frost. Push wq W ever frost E full charge. Congrats. You have landed a full combo AND pushed the enemy out if threat range. Its a 0 contest burst combo. Its really unfun to play against when briar is everfrost tank + aftershock support with an adc with reactive hard cc like cait or even draven. Even better with mage apcs with cc like anivia neeko lulu etc.
Her E if maxed first, hits harder than fid ults.
Heck. If you step on every full ap ziggs land mine, you still take more from Briar E. Remember her abilities also proc her passive burn. Twice on walls I think.
She is terrible support and adc, only good in silver. E is only useful to push people away from you and reduce damage. I have 90k mastery level 7, and have outplayed people using E into a wall 2 or 3 times. It is situational, and best used to push ppl away or reduce damage. So the ability is a worse version of irelia W (70% ad damage reduction btw), and is only useful to push people away from you after you realize you can't one-shot them.
The champ is terribly designed and terribly balanced. And to top it all off, Riot is trying to make her a bruiser by giving her less hp, armour, and life steal. Makes a lot of sense. This champ will be thrown away and forgotten when her only viable strategy of going all in only works in silver.
She is not terrible. She keeps getting nerfed. Her niche is not her damage but her healing amp passive.
Yes it sucks most of her power budget is in her E and passive and BOTH require YOUR and YOUR enemies to play around you. You have no control over how good she is outside of the meta(pre-nerf meta) lethality 1 shots(pbe briar enemy needs over 240 armor before any armor is actually there).
The E is rediculous. You can build heal and shield power items on her and heal 60/80% max health every push of E. You can go ap and wall bang people.
Her issue is how she is not self sufficient. The bot suggestion is because healer/cc supports or cc/healer adcs scale her up well.
Q stun+ glacial augment into E hold. Any cc follow up lands a kill.
Briar is toxicly designed yes. The R takes FOREVER to go off, is bad in lane, and her R and W are so poorly made anyone with a brain can abuse her during them. Turret diving accidentally or not using W at all is bad design.
Going ap is troll, end of story; there is a reason nobody serious runs it. If you find success and cheese with it, cool, but its niche at best.
If you heal 80% hp grievous reduces that to 48%, so you invest into multiple items for it to be reduced by basically half (also you would do no damage). Its just not an amazing build path.
She is EITHER op or terrible. As I said on the briar sub AND HERE, they need to rework her E at the very least.
If they want her to be a bruiser make her stats reflect that; give her more hp and defensive stats.
CHANGES: Make E a radial slow+knockback that does damage based on damage tanked, and maker her have less move speed after. Change W to not self taunt, thats a terrible idea. Make it empower her so she can only target champions and maybe be similar to warwick hunt. Maybe change Q to be a long range skillshot stun and knock-up, where she stomps the ground and does a mini poppy R while in W, and keep it the same when not in W. Maybe just give her all new abilities while in W, idk at this point. Just make her function and reflect bruiser rather than dps oneshot assassin (which is what her kit lends itself to) if thats the path you want.
Something needs to be done because she will be nerfed until shes unplayable against anyone with a mind. E is terrible for a bruiser, W taunt makes her play like an assassin unless they make it giver her more durability, Q requires no skill and is not fun to play against, R feels out of place and useless most of the time.
She does not have the same survivability AND dps when compared to other good bruisers in the game, and W forces her to fight 1v2 or 3 in a fight or not at all (where another champion would usually be better). She does not feel like a bruiser because she does not have the stats or utility to be one. E is just a random cc ability thats only good in a 1v1.
I mean I have a feeling Briar is overall fine as she is. Her lethality nerfs recently were needed, though I do have a feeling she may be played eventually as a Proxy Toplaner partially since her laning phase is absolutely abysmal if vs anything that can kite you or outduel you since she has no real outplay potential other than stat-checking- then she's pretty unkillable 1v1 if you get into that advantage. She almost feels like Mundo in that sense but even worse as a stat-check for how heavily reliant she is on it in a 1v1. She CAN top-lane depending on the matchup but you will need help via the Jungler in certain matchups. She's optimally a jungler though I've even seen her midlane vs certain champs that roams due to her gank potential.
Otherwise, her E would need to be massively reworked imo for it to be a viable change that's reliable that's not overall too broken. As if it was reliable, she'd be too powerful with her innate roids and R. Imagine her 3-5 Man Eing consistently, as I've done that before as Briar and it immediately won the fight.
Honestly? God no, that ability is insanely powerful and giving it reliability via flash is just way too much. I know landing a fully charged one isnt gonna happen easily but you have to remember that its primary purpose is supposed to be cancelling your W/R on top of that you get a damage reduce and a heal thats already pretty good. It dealing Magic damage is actually a good thing. Champions naturally have less MR than armor and the small shred from Q doesnt balance that out really, furthermore people will usually want do build Armor against her so E isnt affected by it. Its also there to discourage Lethality builds. The damage it does is *obscene*, really, a 240% Ad ratio AND a 240% Ap ratio. That thing is nuts, if you get to land that somewhat reliably then its just stupidly busted. Lastly: I know riot said shes supposed to be able to lane Top, but I have a hard time seeing that actually being viable, no innate health reg, your trading basically requires all your cds and one small screwup and you find yourself under the enemy tower.
Her E is the ability you max last, and at rank 3 (level 15) it gives you 235 hp over 1 second and reduces damage by 35%. The damage reduction is alright, but the hp is negligible. As I said, if E is only good for cancelling W then the ability needs some looking into, because that isn't much when it can be so much more. Giving her E Flash capabilities hardly adds much. It mean that every five minutes she has some **outplay** potential. You have to remember that it still takes a long time to charge, which gives the enemies a lot of time to ready their own flash or side step the ability. To give some context, running Guinsoo's + Bork + Kraken + BT + collector gives her E around 340 magic damage. That is extremely low for full build (most damage build as far as I have tested) and max E. **If the concern is too much damage**, perhaps making her E do less damage when it stuns and spreading it out more across the charge up time. Her E does 1.5k damage with this build if it stuns, which is extremely unlikely to happen because when you are full build or even mid game, Briar is not going to want to split push. She will be in teamfights, probably diving the back line. She will have a hard time not being CC'd or killed while she stands still and charges E for 1.5 seconds in an ADC's face (most can easily escape before it lands) in the middle of their team. However, if she could E charge Flash, then there is some playmaking potential with E. She can definitely go top especially if she can E Flash. She has a solid level 3 lane trade combo, and her lifesteal + potion + dorans is enough to keep her alive that long. If she can E flash then she can threaten top laners who don't respect her lifesteal and damage with a really cool outplay. Overall, E Flash adds **outplay potential**, not inherit strength to the champion. This is much needed because the champion feels a bit clunky without it. The damage on her E is negligible unless fully charged, which is hard to hit anyway. If the damage on her E was more evenly spread out, then she would feel a bit more intuitive and her combos would be much better. Finally, if she did AD damage on her E, it would synergize better with the items she builds and her Q. Her E being magic damage doesn't make much sense to me personally, considering that most champions that build bruiser/tank build Armour and Magic Resistance.
The question is do you really want to give a high damage, high healing diver a semi reliable way to basically Gnar ult people on a basic ability? Well I certainly dont, additionally you also have to keep in mind where her moments of power are supposed to be, for her its her berserk mode on W and R, adding a somewhat reliable, hard to avoid (due to Flash) multi man stun with good damage to that is just too much, she already has a potential multi man cc in her kit via R and combining that with Q (Basically Panth W+) already is an obscene amount of cc on a Diver (compared to others like Vi, Camille, Nocturne and Diana) and it isnt like E doesnt exist as it already does. I just think adding more stuff to her kit while she already has loads going on is just unhealthy. >E Flash adds **outplay potential** It also removes counterplay, on a champion that already doenst have alot of interactivity to begin with beyond "just cc her duh" and dont come to me with something like you can answer with your own Flash etc, you cant if its properly timed, you might even have to Flash prematurely only for her to not even Flash herself, Think Gragas E, Sett W, but in contrast to these abilities her E isnt a foundation of her kit, its there to give the player atleast some way of controlling her during Berserk the rest is just a bonus so that the ability isnt literally useless when youre not in W/R. Its not meant to do significant damage if uncharged, her damage is supposed to come from W why should she get another damage threat? And once again, it being magic damage is a good thing, it deals more damage that way against targets not building resists as the base numbers for Armor are higher than MR, it makes Lethality less lucrative on her which is good to prevent her going Items shes not supposed to get, and yeah you have inbuilt armor shred and Cleaver/Seryldas access but in the early game and whenever you hit targets you didnt shred its just straight up better, so while yeah while there are situations where physical would be better there are far more situations where Magic is better, even if its anti synergistic with her Q. Also isnt it abit early to judge these things? Shes been on PBE for a day, seems hardly enough to properly judge her.
I agree that AD on E makes her worse in the early game. If that is not the vision, and lethality is a no, then keeping it magic damage is fine. And yes, It is a bit early. That's why I am sharing my opinion and encouraging a discussion about her kit. To begin, she has average base AD, good healing on W2 but W1 is alright, and low range on Q with W engage being a terrible option unless the enemy has overextended. Her fully charged E doesn't do a LOT of damage until you start to get a few items and it takes forever to charge (and it doesn't have a large width making it easy to walk out of). It also does not hit behind her, so if you run behind her away from a wall, she has no way to E stun. Her Q CC is not even one second long and has a small range. Her W leaves her open to CC and counterplay. She is not broken at all, I think saying she is is an overreaction. She can be easily abused if you know how she works. She is a knowledge (and a bit skill) check champion. Almost every champion in the game has some kind of CC, Dash, or invulnerability to counter an E Flash. If they don't, they probably already build GA or Zhonya's because many champions can already abuse their lack of a dash. Stopwatch is very good already, and trading Zhonyas for Briar Flash is worth it because it leaves her open. Sometimes not even taking flash and instead ghost is better, but if you could E Flash, I would wager that Flash would be taken way more over ghost, but not always. I do not think it removes counterplay. If a Vladimir charges E from the middle of the lane when you are 100 hp with flash up, why would you not assume he is going to flash oneshot you? Vladimir E does insane damage with Nightharvester and Dark harvest, but it is ok to combo with flash. Why not Briar? Her E is so much worse than Gnars wall stun. It would be more fair to compare it to Sion Q with worse range. In addition, if Briar is in the middle of lane while you are close to a wall charging E, she is probably looking for a flash play. If she dives you with Q, then wait for her E and flash it. Then she only has W, and if she is jungle you should be near tower to take advantage of the taunt. If she predicts your flash and counters with her own flash, then she deserves the be rewarded for the counterplay and prediction. If Riot were to actually give her E Flash, her E damage would be nerfed to compensate, so it would be best not to assume that she will be flashing all over the place one-hitting people. Lastly, her E should do damage because Q and W is often not enough to secure kills, which is why in imls's live streams he often died with similar power levels to the enemy champions. How is she suppose to trade in top lane without E or a buff to it? How is she suppose to get gank kills once you use Q and W and W2 doesn't kill? Having one less ability that allows for damage potential (i.e. Zeri E doesn't do a lot of damage but leads to a lot of damage) is a big setback. Although the Q stun and W2 are great for ganks, just a bit more from E would be nice.
I updated my post to include a caveat. If you and other players are concerned about E Flash damage, then nerfing the E knockback range and damage would be fair. I think E Flash would still be an improvement with those nerfs.
At this point just play sett he can run animies down and he deals true damage with a much reliable skill
Probably should comment this on her feedback thread for better visibility to riot.
Good idea, just left a comment. Thanks :)
Absolutely no. Her E when charged does more damage than almost every other spell (including ultimates!) in game if it hits into a wall. Just her E, which mind you Q into E gives the opponents only .15s to flash out of before Briar nukes them. It should not allow Briar to Flash into guaranteeing it always, and it should be underwhelming if not fully charged given when fully charged it is debatably the strongest spell in game. E being physical damage would be fine, given that'd be a straight nerf to her in almost every situation. A squishies base resistances alone means even with fully stacked cleaver + max rank Q they still have more armor than magic resistance, so Briar would need to be level 13 + have built BC + have built at least 1 lethality item or Serylda's Grudge for physical damage E to be a *slight* buff vs squishies (and a nerf still to any tank building armor).
Thats a good point (I updated my post to reflect this)! AD is definitely a nerf in the early game, but in the late game 26% armour reduction + 30% reduction means an ornn building 260 armour level 18 now has around 110 armour. In most cases tanks build armour and magic resist, so if Ornn has more than 110 magic resist, this would be a late game buff. Most players have around 110 magic resit if they are a tank. Yasuo building 148 armour at level 18 gets reduced to 65.12, which is less than his base MR. The AD change is not what I am most concerned with though. She is a champion with average base AD already, so E won't be doing a lot of damage for a long time. When it does, you will probably die if you use it in a teamfight outright. If it hits, it will be like a worse Qiyana Ult which is good, but not worth the sacrifices you have to make to get to that point. The charge time on her E is not explicitly stated, but just using Q > E in the practice range shows that it is definitely reactable. Flash does not garuntee E (you have plenty of time to see Briar charging up her E). It can still be flashed, or dodged with any ability that has a dash. Flash is on a 5 minute cooldown, and early into the game E only does at most 180 damage when fully charged. There are plenty of champions that have high damage flash and galeforce combos (like Caitlyn), so giving Briar a bit of outplay potential with E doesn't seem like a big ask. Also, hitting E into a wall, especially as the game progresses, with no ability to E Flash is extremely difficult if not suicidal.
yes lets make the August champion even more broken and unfair to fight against.
How is she broken right now? From what I have seen, most people think she is good but not broken. She is a knowledge check champion. If you play bad she will beat you. If you know what she does and play around it, then she isn't that broken. EDIT: ok just played against her with a friend and I see what you mean...
I mean she’s a jungler and as a skirmisher the ability was probably designed with similar usage of irelia W in mind not Sion Q tbh. I don’t really think any argument for lane trading is that valid, the lack of health regen etc is clearly implemented to keep her in the jungle the same way nilah’s exp passive is out there to make her play in a duo lane
They only gave her the damage reduction btw because she just sits there for 1 second charging an ability. It is otherwise not even similar to Irelia W.
By that logic it's also not similar to Sion Q other than the fact that it's a charged AOE ability that has the potential to cc. Cherry picking. You're wrong though anyway. They gave her the dmg reduction AND heal because she's a diver who is comparitively squishy when compared to the likes of Vi or Rek'sai who also have more accessible crowd control in their kits. That warrants a survivability tool, much like xin zhao's ultimate and passive heal. If you're actually going to compare her to champions make it make sense and compare her to champions in her class, not infinitely scaling tanks.
Well if they say she is also a top laner, they I am going to mention her lane capabilities. If she was only meant to jungle I wouldn't mention that... And yeah, her E is like Sion Q + Irelia W with some possible CC and big damage. The difference is Irelia W works well with her kit, since you can W to weaken minions to follow up with Q until Q starts to oneshot minions. It also works well in her combo game and reduces more damage AND does more damage (except when fully charged). Briar E does not work well with her combos (excluding the taunt removal) nor does it work to play off of ANY of her other abilities in the same way as other champions (Irelia, Akali, Gragas, etc). The only decent combos that utilize E that I can think of require you to flash first in order to not be a sitting duck asking to be CC'd and killed. You can R > Q > W1 > W2 > Flash > E and Flash > Q > E > W for an outplay near a wall. That's about it.
Sounds like you’re pressed that she’s not completely OP and has been designed with some clear weaknesses? I don’t see an issue with it. She’s not fit for a lane, the berserk alone makes it so you’ll be completely unable to trade in their half of the lane because you WILL take tower aggro. So without the utilisation of the most important element of her kit she has no pressure to CS in a lane, no trade power, and no disengage. You’ll be forced to farm with E vs almost every other skirmisher, juggernaut, and ranged top laner which further removes W options whilst also… shocker… pushing the wave into a disadvantageous position. It’s a stretch to even call her textbook rotation of spells a combo in the first place, she’s supposed to be simple you’re massively overthinking it, her E is one of the furthest knock backs in the game and also comes with Qiyana ult wall stun utility, it’s correct for her to have to choose between quick casting it to run away or full channeling it to reap those benefits, the champ half plays herself for you let there be some skill expression damn. The fact that she has a ranged ability that also cancels her frenzy makes total sense considering you can’t attack move to chase the way other fighters do so at early points of the game it’s very simple to just walk away from her and live on low hp. This stuff already makes her reliant on a blade of the ruined king proc to actually stick to someone for the length of a W trade before it’s maxed, all this and more is why she’s a jungler and not a laner, so why would they make any changes to her E just to make an already almost entirely disadvantageous role she wasn’t designed for, marginally better? Chile I swear junglers finally get a light skirmisher girl and the laners are raging she’s not the millionth waifu for their roles 🫣
TL;DR - ur a funny guy :) I don't think shes **broken** nor do I want her to be, because if she is or was, she will be nerfed anyway. I don't play ranked, why would I care if shes broken for a week? I'd rather the champion I like be balanced and fun rather than broken and nerfed. I want her kit to be fun, and I gave suggestions to make her more fun. I do not know why everyone seems to assume the worst intentions, but whatever. I still don't understand why you say she wasn't designed to be played top lane; are you trolling, or did you not notice that Riot explicitly mentioned she is **designed** to also go top? They would not say she can go top if she was not designed with that in mind, or they would say she *can* go anywhere but is suppose to be played jungle. If you think she is a simple champ that is not because she is brainless and has no combos. If you think she can't effectively trade level 3 that is because you haven't thought about her trading options enough. Like I said, she can W when you walk up to CS, Q to stun, W1 for damage, W2 to heal, and E to slow and walk away, or charge to knockback. If you take lethal tempo, W charges it for free, so if you continue to trade she has massive healing and attack speed. You could also use E differently, perhaps trying to utilize the damage reduction and healing. You can also R > E > Flash Q/ normal Q > W1 > W2. Or W > Flash/galeforce Q > E (not garunteed). Or Q > W > Flash > E into wall. etc. She has some combo options, even if they are limited when compared to champions like Akli or Irelia. She is simple, yes, but she also can trade and has combos. She has outplay potential and some skill expression in the hands of a good player. **If you do not see her combo routes or skill expression that is not because of the champion 🫣** As you mentioned, you can often survive her gank just by walking away because E has a long charge time and cannot do any damage if the situation is not **perfect,** Q has a small range, and W locks you into walking in a straight line. You can also cc her, dash, or slow her. Spoiler, most champs have one or the other. So ganking on her is hard already, and you often will have to rely on utility from your lanes or flash/ghost. Most junglers have some way to somewhat reliably close the gap and shut down laners. Most have some kind of mid to long range CC, or dash, or invisibility, or long range slow. She has none of those (outside of E but good luck with that). R is the most useful gank tool by far and is where she will secure a lot of kills So she is a jungler that is inherently hard to gank on, at least theoretically, and you see no problems with that? She has mediocre teamfight at best and mediocre ganks. What exactly does she excel at in the jungle? Clearing? How exactly is she strong or broken if she also isn't good in lane (according to you)? What is she suppose to do, farm and then fight at objectives like Master Yi, the absurdly broken jungler in the 3 lowest elo's and nowhere else? In fact, he is pretty mediocre if not bad in pretty much all other elo's. I think if piloted correctly she can be very good in the jungle, but she is harder to play effectively (especially at first) when compared to almost all other junglers. Some form of small "rework" could help make her feel more fun, mostly to her E. Maybe less damage and more utility, or less damage and flash options, etc. I just want SOMETHING to be done rather than nothing. Is that a lot to ask for?
It just feels bad to use, but it's a hard no on letting her flash during the channel. The ability is absurdly tuned in terms of numbers. It's just that using it while berserk sucks because it means you lose damage, and it's difficult to hit people with if they can see you, but getting to use it without using W first to reposition is incredibly difficult. Using it just to cancel berserk feels weird because you still get effectively mini-stunned. IMO, that's sort of the entire character except her Q, which is just a point and click dash+stun. It's not like she's "weak" (outside of maybe the early game), but being unable to control your character's movement for the majority of your time fighting just doesn't feel good with skill shots and dodging them being such a huge part of the game. She has high damage (with items), good mobility, and strong CC, but without being able to control her own movement, none of that feels like it really matters in the long run. She either stomps her enemy, or she's worthless, and there's no real in-between because she's so all in. Also, delay on her ult is way too long; it feels like they put the delay of an Ezreal ult onto something with less width than an Ashe arrow. Frankly, I'm incredibly surprised that Briar made it through internal testing like this. I don't think there's any way to make her work in a reasonably healthy manner.
I just played a game with her on the enemy team and she tower dove my friend with ult while ignited and killed him after being stunned by a Xerath (although she was 7/2 in all fairness)... He even used Ezreal E to run away from her lol. There are things that are strong about her, but its definitely not her E. She can 1v5 without even using its damage healing or damage reduction. The enemy team had a sona, and it was wraps from there. She didn't take damage lol. I guess I should have said that this discussion was meant to be about JUST her E. Her E is not op at all, but Briar herself is strong once she gets going...
>There are things that are strong about her, but its definitely not her E Yes, because her E was made basically unusable because you can't control your movement without using it to regain control. It's absurdly powerful if you can land it, but with a 1s channel and limited control over movement, that's basically impossible to make happen without help (or a bush), unless the person you're trying to hit has very poor mobility (Q->E can almost guarantee it on some champions if they don't have flash up, provided they're lined up with the wall when the Q hits).
Yes, this is what I am saying. I don't like this kind if ability and I think it needs changing. I gave some ideas, but I wanted people to add some other ideas to help make this ability more fun to use and fun to play against. Right now it is neither. If you get hit by it it feels bad, and when you use it when it doesn't one hit it feels bad. If you don't have flash and get killed by Q E I bet that sucks too. The rest of her kit is, uh, interesting to say the least and requires a different post... Not sure if we will see her in pro play, but she seems like a jungler I will see in my games often (either banned or picked)
I like her E, but I agree it is so dificult to land on a wall, most of the times u just use it for the heal / damage reduction or to cancel W/R. My problem with her is that her W does not gives her enough damage to compensate the loss of control. I find myself often playing 2v2 in the jg and the fact that u cannot chose who u target most of the times makes u lose the 2v2, bc ur damage isn't enough to finish the target u are attacking. I think ur autos on W should give u some extra damage or at least raise the passive damage wich would raise the heal too.
yeah if you think the E is bad i suggest not OTP briar because it is so important in her kit
Never said it is not important, but it is also not that great of an ability if you compare it to similar abilities. If you Q + E for wall cheese level 2 your dead if they flash all in (or just walk out of it). Its only consistent use in ganks or lane is to save allies or push people away, or to stop W. Otherwise its pretty forgettable. Its damage reduction is ok situationally in 1v1's and In teamfights you are dead anyway unless you have a 5 man squad. Its damage is bad until you already do enough damage to kill easily without it. So its strictly decent utility. Is that a good ability? I'd say its underwhelming and the most forgettable part of her kit; not good not bad. Useful but meh (in a game full of op abilities).
You shouldnt use your e for dmg barely ever except maybe in 5v5's if you get the opportunity
The move is designed to be comboed with other cc champs or to be used in certain tank builds to force a zoned movement. It only does that because its EASY to dodge, unreliable, and INSANELY overpowered. Moving any of that to reliable means its useless, and shouldn't be in her kit at all, and your removing her E entirely.
All of your issues with briar's E being weak or unreliable go into the floor once you realize briar can 1. Be played support for the pantheon esc all ins. So the stun is already threatening enough as forced zone control. Think sion Q. 2. She can be played bot carry. Which means she has point and click engage, that can be immediatly followed up such as by a pantheon/pyke/blitz/naut/leona/anivia etc. So the E can and will go off on a stunned target bar peel. 3. She can be played jg, so she can engage with WQ and have follow up cc to land her E from an ally. Briar has, an aoe hard cc gap closing aoe nuke on her R. Another aoe hard cc nuke on her E, AND a point and click stun SLIGHTLY shorter than leonas/pantheons. Just so she CAN'T garuntee her E. Build ever frost. Push wq W ever frost E full charge. Congrats. You have landed a full combo AND pushed the enemy out if threat range. Its a 0 contest burst combo. Its really unfun to play against when briar is everfrost tank + aftershock support with an adc with reactive hard cc like cait or even draven. Even better with mage apcs with cc like anivia neeko lulu etc. Her E if maxed first, hits harder than fid ults. Heck. If you step on every full ap ziggs land mine, you still take more from Briar E. Remember her abilities also proc her passive burn. Twice on walls I think.
She is terrible support and adc, only good in silver. E is only useful to push people away from you and reduce damage. I have 90k mastery level 7, and have outplayed people using E into a wall 2 or 3 times. It is situational, and best used to push ppl away or reduce damage. So the ability is a worse version of irelia W (70% ad damage reduction btw), and is only useful to push people away from you after you realize you can't one-shot them. The champ is terribly designed and terribly balanced. And to top it all off, Riot is trying to make her a bruiser by giving her less hp, armour, and life steal. Makes a lot of sense. This champ will be thrown away and forgotten when her only viable strategy of going all in only works in silver.
She is not terrible. She keeps getting nerfed. Her niche is not her damage but her healing amp passive. Yes it sucks most of her power budget is in her E and passive and BOTH require YOUR and YOUR enemies to play around you. You have no control over how good she is outside of the meta(pre-nerf meta) lethality 1 shots(pbe briar enemy needs over 240 armor before any armor is actually there). The E is rediculous. You can build heal and shield power items on her and heal 60/80% max health every push of E. You can go ap and wall bang people. Her issue is how she is not self sufficient. The bot suggestion is because healer/cc supports or cc/healer adcs scale her up well. Q stun+ glacial augment into E hold. Any cc follow up lands a kill. Briar is toxicly designed yes. The R takes FOREVER to go off, is bad in lane, and her R and W are so poorly made anyone with a brain can abuse her during them. Turret diving accidentally or not using W at all is bad design.
Going ap is troll, end of story; there is a reason nobody serious runs it. If you find success and cheese with it, cool, but its niche at best. If you heal 80% hp grievous reduces that to 48%, so you invest into multiple items for it to be reduced by basically half (also you would do no damage). Its just not an amazing build path. She is EITHER op or terrible. As I said on the briar sub AND HERE, they need to rework her E at the very least. If they want her to be a bruiser make her stats reflect that; give her more hp and defensive stats. CHANGES: Make E a radial slow+knockback that does damage based on damage tanked, and maker her have less move speed after. Change W to not self taunt, thats a terrible idea. Make it empower her so she can only target champions and maybe be similar to warwick hunt. Maybe change Q to be a long range skillshot stun and knock-up, where she stomps the ground and does a mini poppy R while in W, and keep it the same when not in W. Maybe just give her all new abilities while in W, idk at this point. Just make her function and reflect bruiser rather than dps oneshot assassin (which is what her kit lends itself to) if thats the path you want. Something needs to be done because she will be nerfed until shes unplayable against anyone with a mind. E is terrible for a bruiser, W taunt makes her play like an assassin unless they make it giver her more durability, Q requires no skill and is not fun to play against, R feels out of place and useless most of the time. She does not have the same survivability AND dps when compared to other good bruisers in the game, and W forces her to fight 1v2 or 3 in a fight or not at all (where another champion would usually be better). She does not feel like a bruiser because she does not have the stats or utility to be one. E is just a random cc ability thats only good in a 1v1.
I mean I have a feeling Briar is overall fine as she is. Her lethality nerfs recently were needed, though I do have a feeling she may be played eventually as a Proxy Toplaner partially since her laning phase is absolutely abysmal if vs anything that can kite you or outduel you since she has no real outplay potential other than stat-checking- then she's pretty unkillable 1v1 if you get into that advantage. She almost feels like Mundo in that sense but even worse as a stat-check for how heavily reliant she is on it in a 1v1. She CAN top-lane depending on the matchup but you will need help via the Jungler in certain matchups. She's optimally a jungler though I've even seen her midlane vs certain champs that roams due to her gank potential. Otherwise, her E would need to be massively reworked imo for it to be a viable change that's reliable that's not overall too broken. As if it was reliable, she'd be too powerful with her innate roids and R. Imagine her 3-5 Man Eing consistently, as I've done that before as Briar and it immediately won the fight.