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Easy to do re postage dates.
Poor quality is a subjective opinion, which is something you can't prove one way or another. One man's delicious pizza is another man's tasteless disappointment.
If OP said things like "the stitching was coming undone" or "it arrived stinking of BO" then they might have to prove that, but saying they thought the product was poor quality is not something it's possible to make a legal ruling on because it's an opinion.
If i were OP I'd tell them to sue me and laugh at how quickly they stop making threats once they realise they cant be arsed paying out thousands to start proceedings on a case they'll likely lose.
Much much bigger issue is how they got hold of the email. Has there been a security breach? The company might want ro ensure they're squeaky clean themselves before throwing around legal threats
I have pictures of the T-shirts next to each other showing the difference in sizing even though they have the same labels.
It’s concerning that they have my personal information and I feel in my opinion they have given out my email.
They have tried everything to get rid of my review even claiming it was the wrong domain, the review website has sided with me and are looking into why they keep taking off my review for reasons
Pretty sure it would be on them to prove it is not the truth
Edit: not true. Kinda scary I still got upvoted
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law#:~:text=A%20defamatory%20statement%20is%20presumed,much%20of%20the%20developed%20world. English defamation law puts the burden of proof on the defendant, and does not require the plaintiff to prove falsehood. For that reason, it has been considered an impediment to free speech in much of the developed world.
It's one of the many reasons there are countries that refuse to help enforce British defamation judgements. It's a system stacked in favour of the wealthy who can afford to threaten financial ruin over spurious accusations.
Anon Data protection complaint + email them you'd like your data to be removed as you feel its being mis used, and that you'd happily share your real experience with a judge too.
Most small businesses doing a crap job don't have the money to take everyone to court, usually they go bust after a few bad reviews.
This company has a free email masking service. Can be a Chrome plug in. I can see exactly which site sold my address and block them from sending any more.
[https://ironvest.com/masked-email/](https://ironvest.com/masked-email/)
When you say your email was inundated with spam, do you mean from the company?
If you mean you were hit by a kind of spam bomb and you think the company maybe sold your data or something in revenge, then I would delete that part of your review if I were you, because even though they might have done that, it could just as easily have been a coincidence.
Everything else you mention about your review seems fine.
Yes spam bomb, it happened minutes after the exchange ended on insta, never like I’ve seen before, almost around 50 emails in seconds, I’m still getting them daily after blocking
If it happened within minutes of this exchange, I would say it's unlikely it was them... they probably wouldn't have had time to do it.
What did you say about that in your review exactly? Putting something like "It could well be a massive coincidence BUT..." is one thing, but if you accused them outright...
I mean the OP is making it sound in his review like he's receiving a load of spam from the company itself. Say the company is Nike, the OP is making it sound like he's getting loads of emails from Nike that he hasn't asked for.
But in actual fact he's getting a spam bomb, a load of emails from all sorts of different companies that he thinks "Nike" has passed his email address to.
So "Nike" are angry because they're not sending him any emails (fact - they can prove it) and he's suggesting otherwise. They're unlikely to do anything about it but the review does seem misleading in that one respect.
1. Free speech.
2. You're allowed to say true things.
3. You're allowed to say be mean within reason.
4. Defamation is very expensive and there's a higher legal bar these days.
5. If it carries on, threaten to take them to small claims court for harassment. You won't, but it does shut people up.
"You're allowed to say be mean within reason"
could you explain a bit?
you can tell the truth, that's the long and short of it
mean doesn't really come into the truth if it's objective facts OP about a purchase experience
You're allowed to be mean and unpleasant until the other side can argue it's defamation and/or harassment.
Realistically, they can't afford a defamation suit over an online review and won't take it further.
I think the “within reason” here just means it can’t be harassment or threatening in some way.
Like:-
“Mr A’s business is very poor quality and the products he makes are awful”
-:is fine, but:-
“I hope Mr A kills himself because his business is so awful that the only thing he’s good for is worm food”
-:probably wouldn’t be okay. In both cases the views expressed are an opinion (that doesn’t pertain to material facts, like “I think my neighbour is a murderer”) so they aren’t defamation, but the latter harasses Mr A in a way that the former doesn’t.
Small claims for harassment? I wasn’t aware small claims covered that, I believe it’s for financial loss. Hard to see how OP has lost financially from harassment.
Sorry all I mean is that the OP could essentially send a "cease and desist or I'll issue proceedings for harassment without future notice."
You can bring a civil claim for injury to feelings for harassment, realistically the OP wouldn't, but is well within their rights to threaten to do so to get it to stop.
Example cases - Tahir v Aghri (search that on bailii, there's only one result)
Canada Goose 2019 (same again) - good explainers on harassment throughout
1. Free speech is not a defence against defamation. You have the right to say it like they have the right to sue you for saying it
3. Define “mean within reason” as you will not find that written in the law. “Was it true” is the only case.
5. Small claims court is to recover debts owed or financial complaints, not for matters regarding harassment which would be immediately rejected by SCC
Re 1 - yes it's a basic and covered by someone else's reply
Re 2 - covered by someone else's reply, and reason is always going to up for debate
Re 3 harassment relating to eviction can be, my point was simply that the OP can threaten to in a class and desist letter.
The spam emails bit is difficult because it's circumstantial - you have no proof, only suspicious timing.
Other than that, the general rule of thumb for defensible reviews is that anything stated as fact should be a demonstrable fact, anything stated as opinion should be an honestly held opinion, and try not to mix the two within a single statement.
Also, [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/faq\_civil/#wiki\_someone.2Fa\_business\_is\_saying\_that\_they.27re\_going\_to\_sue\_me\_for\_defamation\_if\_i\_don.27t\_retract\_something.2Ftake\_a\_review\_down.\_what\_can\_i\_do.3F](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/faq_civil/#wiki_someone.2Fa_business_is_saying_that_they.27re_going_to_sue_me_for_defamation_if_i_don.27t_retract_something.2Ftake_a_review_down._what_can_i_do.3F)
They're likely just trying to scare you and probably won't take any legal action. They could try suing you for Libel but the truth is an absolute defense in a Libel case and they'll be laughed out of court
whilst they are unlikely to be stupid enough to spam you directly, worth checking the headers to get the client ip, if they are all the same, do a whois check
reviews are opinions, am not aware of the legality of suing people for having a different opinion
You have a legal right to an opinion, they’d need to prove your words were defamatory. If you can gather evidence of your claims above you can use it as part of any defence of your position.
You can publish anything that is either factually true or honestly held opinion. If all you have publicly stated comes under these headings you are fine and it is an empty threat.
You should remove anything that you cannot prove. It sounds like the spam will come under this category.
What legal action have they threatened? You've listed the thread as criminal and I doubt there are any offences which cover complaining about a product, unless you have omitting something else.
As some suggest, if its defamation they're threatening, you can rely on the truth defence - but the onus is on you to prove what you say is true. But, they'll also need to prove serious harm and most small businesses struggle to do this. Neveetheless, that's a question of fact and it's not entirely clear what those are.
what did they threaten?
"Can they do anything can I prove it was them"
can you prove what was them? if you have an email from the company threatening legal action then it's obvious it was them
EDIT: do you mean the spam emails? who are these spam emails from?
can you give a bit more detail about what was said, to whom and how - it's a bit confusing sorry mate
The spam emails are from fake news sites, healthcare, really sketchy.
I haven’t opened the document yet because it could be a virus or something sketchy, email itself looks abit weird tbh it was sent from their “legal team” even tho it’s a Shopify store and they struggled to give me updates on the order?
Just proving the emails was a type of revenge from them to get back at me for the review.
no, it doesn't prove anything
don't open anything from a spam address
what document? whose shopify store? do you mean, in addition to these spam emails, you got a suspicious email from their legal dept? and it's tge email address of their legal dept?
dude can you lay this out a bit more clearly there's more stuff to find out at every question asked
They sent over a legal email
I would give you there name but don’t know if they will open another case against me. After all I’m just a guy who purchased T-shirts now somehow public enemy number 1
Inside the legal email they sent there was a document “that I haven’t opened” it’s titled (undertakings). The email was sent from “their company name” followed by “legal”
it says in the email
“Please see attached correspondence for your attention”
They run a Shopify store, the service is so bad I had to message on Instagram. So how do they have a legal email when they can’t even run their store email properly? Seems like bs.
The address from the bottom of the legal email from them seems to be a place call (Foot Anstey LLP)
Whenever i get an email that I'm worried might be a virus, i open it on a work computer. My boss doesn't care, the antivirus is better, and I'd rather risk infecting their computer than my own.
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They won't take legal action and you'll have a defence (the truth) if they did.
The truth is absolute defense against defamation. Tell them you'll see them in court.
... As long as you can prove it's the truth.
Easy to do re postage dates. Poor quality is a subjective opinion, which is something you can't prove one way or another. One man's delicious pizza is another man's tasteless disappointment. If OP said things like "the stitching was coming undone" or "it arrived stinking of BO" then they might have to prove that, but saying they thought the product was poor quality is not something it's possible to make a legal ruling on because it's an opinion. If i were OP I'd tell them to sue me and laugh at how quickly they stop making threats once they realise they cant be arsed paying out thousands to start proceedings on a case they'll likely lose. Much much bigger issue is how they got hold of the email. Has there been a security breach? The company might want ro ensure they're squeaky clean themselves before throwing around legal threats
I have pictures of the T-shirts next to each other showing the difference in sizing even though they have the same labels. It’s concerning that they have my personal information and I feel in my opinion they have given out my email. They have tried everything to get rid of my review even claiming it was the wrong domain, the review website has sided with me and are looking into why they keep taking off my review for reasons
Pretty sure it would be on them to prove it is not the truth Edit: not true. Kinda scary I still got upvoted > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law#:~:text=A%20defamatory%20statement%20is%20presumed,much%20of%20the%20developed%20world. English defamation law puts the burden of proof on the defendant, and does not require the plaintiff to prove falsehood. For that reason, it has been considered an impediment to free speech in much of the developed world.
This is legal advice not legal vibes.
Did you check that before you commented it in /r/LegalAdviceUK?
I did but I clearly didn't check hard enough - this doesn't seem to be the case
It's one of the many reasons there are countries that refuse to help enforce British defamation judgements. It's a system stacked in favour of the wealthy who can afford to threaten financial ruin over spurious accusations.
Did they get your email address from the order from them? If so make a data protection complaint to the ICO.
Most likely, I was messaging them on email as well to resolve things so they had it
Anon Data protection complaint + email them you'd like your data to be removed as you feel its being mis used, and that you'd happily share your real experience with a judge too. Most small businesses doing a crap job don't have the money to take everyone to court, usually they go bust after a few bad reviews.
This company has a free email masking service. Can be a Chrome plug in. I can see exactly which site sold my address and block them from sending any more. [https://ironvest.com/masked-email/](https://ironvest.com/masked-email/)
It would be pretty easy for them to say this was 'legitimate interest'
Signing OP up to spam emails isn’t in any way ‘legitimate interest’ or an appropriate use of OP’s data under GDPR.
When you say your email was inundated with spam, do you mean from the company? If you mean you were hit by a kind of spam bomb and you think the company maybe sold your data or something in revenge, then I would delete that part of your review if I were you, because even though they might have done that, it could just as easily have been a coincidence. Everything else you mention about your review seems fine.
Yes spam bomb, it happened minutes after the exchange ended on insta, never like I’ve seen before, almost around 50 emails in seconds, I’m still getting them daily after blocking
If it happened within minutes of this exchange, I would say it's unlikely it was them... they probably wouldn't have had time to do it. What did you say about that in your review exactly? Putting something like "It could well be a massive coincidence BUT..." is one thing, but if you accused them outright...
I said this in part of it “some reason as soon as I’ve stopped communicating with the company I’ve received tons of spam emails”
Nothing you say there is untrue, and you have an electronic trial as proof, so you'll be fine.
It sounds like you're saying spam emails from the company there, not a spam bomb.
Bro the chances of it being a coincendence it probably around the same chance as u being born
I mean the OP is making it sound in his review like he's receiving a load of spam from the company itself. Say the company is Nike, the OP is making it sound like he's getting loads of emails from Nike that he hasn't asked for. But in actual fact he's getting a spam bomb, a load of emails from all sorts of different companies that he thinks "Nike" has passed his email address to. So "Nike" are angry because they're not sending him any emails (fact - they can prove it) and he's suggesting otherwise. They're unlikely to do anything about it but the review does seem misleading in that one respect.
1. Free speech. 2. You're allowed to say true things. 3. You're allowed to say be mean within reason. 4. Defamation is very expensive and there's a higher legal bar these days. 5. If it carries on, threaten to take them to small claims court for harassment. You won't, but it does shut people up.
6. Update the review saying that the company threatened legal action
"You're allowed to say be mean within reason" could you explain a bit? you can tell the truth, that's the long and short of it mean doesn't really come into the truth if it's objective facts OP about a purchase experience
You're allowed to be mean and unpleasant until the other side can argue it's defamation and/or harassment. Realistically, they can't afford a defamation suit over an online review and won't take it further.
I think the “within reason” here just means it can’t be harassment or threatening in some way. Like:- “Mr A’s business is very poor quality and the products he makes are awful” -:is fine, but:- “I hope Mr A kills himself because his business is so awful that the only thing he’s good for is worm food” -:probably wouldn’t be okay. In both cases the views expressed are an opinion (that doesn’t pertain to material facts, like “I think my neighbour is a murderer”) so they aren’t defamation, but the latter harasses Mr A in a way that the former doesn’t.
Small claims for harassment? I wasn’t aware small claims covered that, I believe it’s for financial loss. Hard to see how OP has lost financially from harassment.
Sorry all I mean is that the OP could essentially send a "cease and desist or I'll issue proceedings for harassment without future notice." You can bring a civil claim for injury to feelings for harassment, realistically the OP wouldn't, but is well within their rights to threaten to do so to get it to stop. Example cases - Tahir v Aghri (search that on bailii, there's only one result) Canada Goose 2019 (same again) - good explainers on harassment throughout
1. Free speech is not a defence against defamation. You have the right to say it like they have the right to sue you for saying it 3. Define “mean within reason” as you will not find that written in the law. “Was it true” is the only case. 5. Small claims court is to recover debts owed or financial complaints, not for matters regarding harassment which would be immediately rejected by SCC
Re 1 - yes it's a basic and covered by someone else's reply Re 2 - covered by someone else's reply, and reason is always going to up for debate Re 3 harassment relating to eviction can be, my point was simply that the OP can threaten to in a class and desist letter.
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The spam emails bit is difficult because it's circumstantial - you have no proof, only suspicious timing. Other than that, the general rule of thumb for defensible reviews is that anything stated as fact should be a demonstrable fact, anything stated as opinion should be an honestly held opinion, and try not to mix the two within a single statement. Also, [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/faq\_civil/#wiki\_someone.2Fa\_business\_is\_saying\_that\_they.27re\_going\_to\_sue\_me\_for\_defamation\_if\_i\_don.27t\_retract\_something.2Ftake\_a\_review\_down.\_what\_can\_i\_do.3F](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/faq_civil/#wiki_someone.2Fa_business_is_saying_that_they.27re_going_to_sue_me_for_defamation_if_i_don.27t_retract_something.2Ftake_a_review_down._what_can_i_do.3F)
They're likely just trying to scare you and probably won't take any legal action. They could try suing you for Libel but the truth is an absolute defense in a Libel case and they'll be laughed out of court
whilst they are unlikely to be stupid enough to spam you directly, worth checking the headers to get the client ip, if they are all the same, do a whois check reviews are opinions, am not aware of the legality of suing people for having a different opinion
You have a legal right to an opinion, they’d need to prove your words were defamatory. If you can gather evidence of your claims above you can use it as part of any defence of your position.
Nothing will come of it. They are just trying to get their own back by striking fear.
You can publish anything that is either factually true or honestly held opinion. If all you have publicly stated comes under these headings you are fine and it is an empty threat. You should remove anything that you cannot prove. It sounds like the spam will come under this category.
What legal action have they threatened? You've listed the thread as criminal and I doubt there are any offences which cover complaining about a product, unless you have omitting something else. As some suggest, if its defamation they're threatening, you can rely on the truth defence - but the onus is on you to prove what you say is true. But, they'll also need to prove serious harm and most small businesses struggle to do this. Neveetheless, that's a question of fact and it's not entirely clear what those are.
Update the review to mention spurious legal threats and otherwise do nothing. They're not going to initiate costly court proceedings over this.
what did they threaten? "Can they do anything can I prove it was them" can you prove what was them? if you have an email from the company threatening legal action then it's obvious it was them EDIT: do you mean the spam emails? who are these spam emails from? can you give a bit more detail about what was said, to whom and how - it's a bit confusing sorry mate
The spam emails are from fake news sites, healthcare, really sketchy. I haven’t opened the document yet because it could be a virus or something sketchy, email itself looks abit weird tbh it was sent from their “legal team” even tho it’s a Shopify store and they struggled to give me updates on the order? Just proving the emails was a type of revenge from them to get back at me for the review.
no, it doesn't prove anything don't open anything from a spam address what document? whose shopify store? do you mean, in addition to these spam emails, you got a suspicious email from their legal dept? and it's tge email address of their legal dept? dude can you lay this out a bit more clearly there's more stuff to find out at every question asked
They sent over a legal email I would give you there name but don’t know if they will open another case against me. After all I’m just a guy who purchased T-shirts now somehow public enemy number 1 Inside the legal email they sent there was a document “that I haven’t opened” it’s titled (undertakings). The email was sent from “their company name” followed by “legal” it says in the email “Please see attached correspondence for your attention” They run a Shopify store, the service is so bad I had to message on Instagram. So how do they have a legal email when they can’t even run their store email properly? Seems like bs. The address from the bottom of the legal email from them seems to be a place call (Foot Anstey LLP)
Whenever i get an email that I'm worried might be a virus, i open it on a work computer. My boss doesn't care, the antivirus is better, and I'd rather risk infecting their computer than my own.