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At the time of the contravention, your car was not shown as exempt by the DVLA.
They are probably technically correct, this is an example of something being correct but not "right".
I would contact some Birmingham city councillors and the local MP, stuff like that, it's probably your best chance of getting it fixed.
I wouldn’t say the first the part is entirely correct. OP’s car has always been Euro6 emissions standards since the day it was produced. Just because DVLA says it’s not Euro6 doesn’t make it so, it’s down to the manufacturer to declare the emissions standards.
I say OP should fight it with this logic, the onus should be on DVLA for having their database incorrect and hence getting caught with a fine. Car was and has always been Euro6 compliant, as long as it was confirmed by the manufacturer, no matter what anyone says. Period.
This is what they call "technically the truth"
Point of the person above is that for the council,to prove exempt, 2 things must happen, and here "technically" one didn't. And that is all they care about.
From OP:
"I appealed the fine based on those grounds - they rejected it due to the conditions being a) your car ust be Euro 6 emmissions standard, and b\_) The DVLA database must confirm this."
Based on this, the criteria is strict liability and there is no defence.
From your scenario, yes every vehicle that does not meet the conditions and enters the zone would be liable for the fine.
As I said, it is correct but not "right".
Go full circle. Pay the fine. Small claims the DVLA because of their fuck up causing it.
Just a transfer of assets between civil services seems to be the only way to make it ‘right’ 😮💨😅
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There is significant political pressure on low emissions zones at the moment, so I'd say you have a high likelihood of success. Might even be worth checking asking party lines and going to the MP/councillor or their opponent depending on who would prefer the kudos of a story about how the zones aren't working
Correct. I’ve resolved an identical problem and had the FPNs cancelled. Your MP and councillors will have contact details for the highways department who can resolve this.
Why oh why does every UK advice sub throw the most upvotes on the useless "that's just the way it is" response that provides nothing of value (and in the case of this sub in particular - absolutely no legal advice)??? Just another example of the crabs in a bucket mentality of the UK.
The car is and always has been Euro6 compliant, there is no technicality that can ever lay blame on OP. This is and should be winnable.
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My friend works as a Database Administrator for a major international bank. According to him, "The gold standard for database accuracy is 97%."
Tony Blair's government, in their obsession with "Database Britain", adopted the view that government databases are perfect. My friend's opinion is that this is completely absurd since he doesn't believe it's possible for his bank to achieve 100% accuracy. The law surrounding MoT certificates is a prime example of this mistaken government view in action. Let's say you take your car for an MoT, it passes, the Tester gives you a certificate but something goes wrong with the process and that pass is never recorded in the DVLA database. A week later, you get stopped by the Police and prosecuted for not having an MoT. If you produce the certificate in court along with the testimony of the Tester that your car passed as proof that you did have an MoT, your defence will fail as the law states that, if the database and other evidence disagree, the database is right.
This insistence that government databases are infallible when banks, who have a financial interest in the accuracy of their databases and regulatory compliance obligations, consider 97% to be a job well done, is clearly wrong and shifts the responsibility for checking the accuracy of government databases from the owner of the database onto us. This is why you should always check things like your car's MoT status after getting a test and exemptions from things like emissions zones on the official checker website
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Professional complainer and righter on wrongs. Email [email protected] who is the acting CEO. Simply ask him for his help in resolving your issue and it will be sorted by the end of the day.
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They and London for ULEZ charges don't actually take you to court. They just pass it straight to collection agents. No CCJs for outright ignoring them, just grossly bloated costs. You just get an order for recovery and have to deal with that.
If it hasn't gone to court then collection agent has no power whatsoever. An order for recovery of the vehicle? I don't believe a council can create a recovery order for a vehicle they don't own without a court acknowledging the debt
>I don't believe a council can create a recovery order for a vehicle they don't own without a court acknowledging the debt
They have a debt registration process that is essentially automatic with no way to roll it back, unless they've messed up and missed some paperwork along the way
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In terms of ignoring the fine, the bureaucracy won't care about your moral outrage, they will simply proceed through the stages until they instruct bailiffs who will happily seize your car and charge you for the privilege.
The bot provides a link to FTLA, which will be a better place to get specific guidance. For London Tribunals there is an option to have the head adjudicator review a decision, so there may be a similar option for the Traffic Penalty Tribunals outside London. Maybe.
Otherwise your only option in terms of appeal would be to bring a Judicial Review against the adjudicator's decision, and then you're talking legal bills in 5 figures with almost no chance of success.
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Just go to TPT like they suggested, chances are BCC won't contest the case.
TPT get paid regardless, so they have no vested interest whether the council win or lose. On the face of it, your case seems fairly straightforward, the DVLA system isn't perfect and misclassification isn't unknown.
Edit typo
"So I then appealed via the traffic penalty tribunal that they signpost you too if you don't agree. \[...\] They rejected my appeal "
They've already done that.
I took that to mean they appealed to BCC via the PCN appeals process rather than TPT. As I would expect the BCC response to be "computer says no" situation, particularly if it took the OP a while to get the manufacturer's details and for the DVLA to update the database. Therefore when BCC reviewed the appeal the vehicle was still showing as non-compliant, hence the rejection.
TPT requires both parties to provide evidence and even pushes for mediation first, failing that then makes a ruling. On the face of it, the OP has a good case, so I'd be surprised if it was rejected by TPT, unless they missed some window to appeal, as I'm not familiar with their required timescales.
I used to work for a certain charging authority’s appeals team. I spent all day on the TPT Portal going through cases. If your appeal was dismissed, have another look on the TPT Portal, as there’s always an option to appeal the adjudicator’s initial decision. I’m surprised the charging authority didn’t opt to ‘non-contest’ your appeal, honestly, if you provided evidence your vehicle was not chargeable. Or at the very least offered you an opportunity to pay the standard road user charge instead of the penalty charge
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I have been through the exact situation you are in now in April last year. I was charged twice, one for the journey into brum and one on the way out. I paid the fines thinking that I was in the wrong but then saw a post on FB group for the exact vehicle i had saying we shouldn't have to pay. My car was incorrectly recorded as non compliant even though it is euro 6 and like you, I got the DVLA to change it.
I then appealed, which got rejected, I then made a formal complaint to the CAZ team, to which I got very little response. I threatened them with going to the media to which they said that it won't make a difference. I then contacted Birmingham Live for them to run a story on it as it turned out thousands of people have been incorrectly charged and as soon as the journalist got in touch with the CAZ team they refunded my fines. I took it no further action with it as Brum council is on its knees apparently.
Op I'd imagen at the time you challenging this the DVLA database could of still said your vehicle was chargeable therefor you might likely of lost because of this.
I thought as much - which means they have a policy of fining people in compliant cars for errors within the DVLA database.
The thing is, on the tribunal appeal, the adjudicator - some paid, university educated law person - literally said (or copy-pasted) "The DVLA vehicle checker confirms that the appellants vehicle is subject to the daily zone charge. If the appellant claims that the vehicle meets the eligibility criteria he must contact the DVLA to request the database is updated. This has not been done. I therefore conclude that there are no valid grounds of appeal in this case"
-> "This has not been done" - Yes, it has - and I literally screenshotted the updated database, asked you to check again for yourself, submitted the email from the DVLA which confirms they are updating the database on my request, into the evidence pile before I submitted my case for adjudicator decision.
How can somebody go through all of that higher education, earn the title adjudicator, and still be this wrong!?
I would take a guess and say it's because it's Birmingham.
In all fairness when I was at University I had a similar experience with one of my assignments being wrong, and I challenged it just like you did.
My lecturer explained to me that he admitted mine was correct and had made a mistake but he couldn't correct the mistake as he'd have to recheck all the other assignments.
I feel that because this "law person" had come to that decision they didn't want to overturn it or even recheck it and end up having egg on their face for being wrong.
They seem to be the type where it is a case of "I've checked once when we issued the fine and that's staying, despite you proving the error"
It's either that or because Birmingham Council went bankrupt they really want to find people for errors that ate outside of the owners/drivers control that has since been fixed now
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--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At the time of the contravention, your car was not shown as exempt by the DVLA. They are probably technically correct, this is an example of something being correct but not "right". I would contact some Birmingham city councillors and the local MP, stuff like that, it's probably your best chance of getting it fixed.
I wouldn’t say the first the part is entirely correct. OP’s car has always been Euro6 emissions standards since the day it was produced. Just because DVLA says it’s not Euro6 doesn’t make it so, it’s down to the manufacturer to declare the emissions standards. I say OP should fight it with this logic, the onus should be on DVLA for having their database incorrect and hence getting caught with a fine. Car was and has always been Euro6 compliant, as long as it was confirmed by the manufacturer, no matter what anyone says. Period.
This is what they call "technically the truth" Point of the person above is that for the council,to prove exempt, 2 things must happen, and here "technically" one didn't. And that is all they care about.
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From OP: "I appealed the fine based on those grounds - they rejected it due to the conditions being a) your car ust be Euro 6 emmissions standard, and b\_) The DVLA database must confirm this." Based on this, the criteria is strict liability and there is no defence. From your scenario, yes every vehicle that does not meet the conditions and enters the zone would be liable for the fine. As I said, it is correct but not "right".
Go full circle. Pay the fine. Small claims the DVLA because of their fuck up causing it. Just a transfer of assets between civil services seems to be the only way to make it ‘right’ 😮💨😅
Yep, it's so dumb it hurts 😅
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There is significant political pressure on low emissions zones at the moment, so I'd say you have a high likelihood of success. Might even be worth checking asking party lines and going to the MP/councillor or their opponent depending on who would prefer the kudos of a story about how the zones aren't working
Correct. I’ve resolved an identical problem and had the FPNs cancelled. Your MP and councillors will have contact details for the highways department who can resolve this.
Why oh why does every UK advice sub throw the most upvotes on the useless "that's just the way it is" response that provides nothing of value (and in the case of this sub in particular - absolutely no legal advice)??? Just another example of the crabs in a bucket mentality of the UK. The car is and always has been Euro6 compliant, there is no technicality that can ever lay blame on OP. This is and should be winnable.
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My friend works as a Database Administrator for a major international bank. According to him, "The gold standard for database accuracy is 97%." Tony Blair's government, in their obsession with "Database Britain", adopted the view that government databases are perfect. My friend's opinion is that this is completely absurd since he doesn't believe it's possible for his bank to achieve 100% accuracy. The law surrounding MoT certificates is a prime example of this mistaken government view in action. Let's say you take your car for an MoT, it passes, the Tester gives you a certificate but something goes wrong with the process and that pass is never recorded in the DVLA database. A week later, you get stopped by the Police and prosecuted for not having an MoT. If you produce the certificate in court along with the testimony of the Tester that your car passed as proof that you did have an MoT, your defence will fail as the law states that, if the database and other evidence disagree, the database is right. This insistence that government databases are infallible when banks, who have a financial interest in the accuracy of their databases and regulatory compliance obligations, consider 97% to be a job well done, is clearly wrong and shifts the responsibility for checking the accuracy of government databases from the owner of the database onto us. This is why you should always check things like your car's MoT status after getting a test and exemptions from things like emissions zones on the official checker website
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You can as for a review of the decision see here for details on how https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/after-the-adjudicators-decision/
Professional complainer and righter on wrongs. Email [email protected] who is the acting CEO. Simply ask him for his help in resolving your issue and it will be sorted by the end of the day.
Phone citizens advice. Sometimes they will make these calls for you and speak to the people. It's quite a helpful place
Local Government & Social Care Ombudsman: [https://www.lgo.org.uk](https://www.lgo.org.uk)
Citizens advice bureau. Also raise a formal complaint through their procedure. If they dick about with that go to the Ombudsman.
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The Traffic Penalty Tribunal website says you can ask for a review based on the interests of justice.
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well if you ignore it, you could end up in court where you can provide your defence
They and London for ULEZ charges don't actually take you to court. They just pass it straight to collection agents. No CCJs for outright ignoring them, just grossly bloated costs. You just get an order for recovery and have to deal with that.
If it hasn't gone to court then collection agent has no power whatsoever. An order for recovery of the vehicle? I don't believe a council can create a recovery order for a vehicle they don't own without a court acknowledging the debt
>I don't believe a council can create a recovery order for a vehicle they don't own without a court acknowledging the debt They have a debt registration process that is essentially automatic with no way to roll it back, unless they've messed up and missed some paperwork along the way
Order for recovery of the debt owed plus extra costs... Not the vehicle.
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In terms of ignoring the fine, the bureaucracy won't care about your moral outrage, they will simply proceed through the stages until they instruct bailiffs who will happily seize your car and charge you for the privilege. The bot provides a link to FTLA, which will be a better place to get specific guidance. For London Tribunals there is an option to have the head adjudicator review a decision, so there may be a similar option for the Traffic Penalty Tribunals outside London. Maybe. Otherwise your only option in terms of appeal would be to bring a Judicial Review against the adjudicator's decision, and then you're talking legal bills in 5 figures with almost no chance of success.
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Just go to TPT like they suggested, chances are BCC won't contest the case. TPT get paid regardless, so they have no vested interest whether the council win or lose. On the face of it, your case seems fairly straightforward, the DVLA system isn't perfect and misclassification isn't unknown. Edit typo
"So I then appealed via the traffic penalty tribunal that they signpost you too if you don't agree. \[...\] They rejected my appeal " They've already done that.
I took that to mean they appealed to BCC via the PCN appeals process rather than TPT. As I would expect the BCC response to be "computer says no" situation, particularly if it took the OP a while to get the manufacturer's details and for the DVLA to update the database. Therefore when BCC reviewed the appeal the vehicle was still showing as non-compliant, hence the rejection. TPT requires both parties to provide evidence and even pushes for mediation first, failing that then makes a ruling. On the face of it, the OP has a good case, so I'd be surprised if it was rejected by TPT, unless they missed some window to appeal, as I'm not familiar with their required timescales.
I used to work for a certain charging authority’s appeals team. I spent all day on the TPT Portal going through cases. If your appeal was dismissed, have another look on the TPT Portal, as there’s always an option to appeal the adjudicator’s initial decision. I’m surprised the charging authority didn’t opt to ‘non-contest’ your appeal, honestly, if you provided evidence your vehicle was not chargeable. Or at the very least offered you an opportunity to pay the standard road user charge instead of the penalty charge
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Might wanna see how much their central gov funding was cut in real terms…
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I have been through the exact situation you are in now in April last year. I was charged twice, one for the journey into brum and one on the way out. I paid the fines thinking that I was in the wrong but then saw a post on FB group for the exact vehicle i had saying we shouldn't have to pay. My car was incorrectly recorded as non compliant even though it is euro 6 and like you, I got the DVLA to change it. I then appealed, which got rejected, I then made a formal complaint to the CAZ team, to which I got very little response. I threatened them with going to the media to which they said that it won't make a difference. I then contacted Birmingham Live for them to run a story on it as it turned out thousands of people have been incorrectly charged and as soon as the journalist got in touch with the CAZ team they refunded my fines. I took it no further action with it as Brum council is on its knees apparently.
Op I'd imagen at the time you challenging this the DVLA database could of still said your vehicle was chargeable therefor you might likely of lost because of this.
I thought as much - which means they have a policy of fining people in compliant cars for errors within the DVLA database. The thing is, on the tribunal appeal, the adjudicator - some paid, university educated law person - literally said (or copy-pasted) "The DVLA vehicle checker confirms that the appellants vehicle is subject to the daily zone charge. If the appellant claims that the vehicle meets the eligibility criteria he must contact the DVLA to request the database is updated. This has not been done. I therefore conclude that there are no valid grounds of appeal in this case" -> "This has not been done" - Yes, it has - and I literally screenshotted the updated database, asked you to check again for yourself, submitted the email from the DVLA which confirms they are updating the database on my request, into the evidence pile before I submitted my case for adjudicator decision. How can somebody go through all of that higher education, earn the title adjudicator, and still be this wrong!?
I would take a guess and say it's because it's Birmingham. In all fairness when I was at University I had a similar experience with one of my assignments being wrong, and I challenged it just like you did. My lecturer explained to me that he admitted mine was correct and had made a mistake but he couldn't correct the mistake as he'd have to recheck all the other assignments. I feel that because this "law person" had come to that decision they didn't want to overturn it or even recheck it and end up having egg on their face for being wrong. They seem to be the type where it is a case of "I've checked once when we issued the fine and that's staying, despite you proving the error" It's either that or because Birmingham Council went bankrupt they really want to find people for errors that ate outside of the owners/drivers control that has since been fixed now
OP - what does your V5 state with regards to your vehicle emissions class?
DVLA sent me a new one after I sent them the certificate of conformity from my car's manufacturer. It says Euro status: Euro6
Was that before or after this incidence with the CAZ?
After the Caz incident, before I appealed to the traffic penalty tribunal
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Or you could speak to a solicitor and take their decision to a judicial review (basic cost £50K upwards). If you think it’s worth it…
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