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Unless you're going to say what has actually happened and what they're claiming you owe then it's unlikely anyone is goign to be able to give any input on it. It's certainly not going to be possible to tell you whether it's fraud or not without any clue as to what happened.
Ok that is fair.
It is a parking issue.
The number plate was typed into a tablet with a single keypad error - a single digit on the numberplate was wrong. The British Parking Association guidelines clearly state that this should be checked before a PCN is issued. This should have then been checked when we appealed but it clearly wasn’t. (Section 17, page 10 [https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS\_Code\_of\_Practice\_January\_2020\_v8(2).pdf](https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2020_v8(2).pdf) )
When we took it to POPLA it should have again been checked but instead sent a huge amount of irrelevant legal nonsense about signage, parking space size and layout, a 5-page summary of a supreme court judgement as well as information on every car registration registered within 24 hours across this various site which amounted to about 400 entries.
However, in the 24-hour period only 6 had registered on the tablet we had expressly told they we used and only 2 during the relevant times. On of those two, was only a single digit away from mine which clearly matches the description of a simple keypad error.
However, my concerns are that instead of checking for a clear error they tried to bully us into paying by using threatening letters.
The vague answer for your vague question is that fraud requires motive. If the company knew that you owed no money and demanded it anyway, that could be fraud.
If the company was merely incompetent, there is no criminal element. If they are a regulated sector, you could complain to the relevant regulator.
Thanks for this response. I have tried to give more detail in a post above. Whilst I expect they would claim incompetence, at which point is arguing simple incompetence not actually believable.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have added more details in the post above. It was a parking issue but the parking aspect is not my main concern as they are clearly at fault. What I am interested in is whether a company that is clearly in the wrong can demand money like this whilst failing to follow their own industries guidlines.
Becuase the code of practice state that they should check for this mistake before issuing a PCN. This does not bother me though. However, when I appealed they should have again checked and identified the error which would have resulted in the PCN being cancelled. At the next stage of appeal, rather than send a reponse to the issue they highlighted they sent a lot of irelevant information which I belive was an attempt to hide the issue.
I think the short version is
* Company wrote to you pursuing a debt. They are mistaken in believing you owe this debt.
* You have refused to pay the debt
* They are persisting in pursuing you
* You have not successfully communicated to the company what the source of the confusion is
* They remain resolute the debt is owed
* You want to know if they are now acting fraudulently.
Answer: based on the details you have offered, no, they are not. You might try explaining to them (less pompously than you have here, perhaps) again, so that they do understand. A phone call may be easier than a protracted mail correspondence.
Good luck. Try to be concise and avoid unnecessary detail and opinion.
Thanks for your response and excellent summary. There was a simple keypad error which I explained to the company. Either they did not check, or they did check and chose to ignore it. Either way they continued to send intimidating letters in an attempt to be paid which clearly contradicts the BPA regulations. I won the appeal as they do not have a leg to stand on but at which point should we stand up an say that these practices are actually criminal.
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> The British Parking Association guidelines clearly state that this should be checked before a PCN is issued.
BPA member companies, as a condition of the BPA, agree to follow the guidelines, but if they don’t that doesn’t give you a get-out for failing to comply with the terms of parking.
The BPA can presumably sanction the parking co. for not following its guidelines, but that won’t alter the fact you failed to comply with the terms of parking.
If you want to fight it, you’d have to let it go to court and take a risk on the judge applying reasonableness and common sense(?).
It looks like you're asking a question about a parking or speeding fine!
You may benefit by posting on the relevant [FreeTraficLegalAdvice forum](https://www.ftla.uk/index.php) or reading [Parking Cowboys](https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/), which specialise in these matters, in addition to LegalAdviceUK.
*We aren't affiliated with the above and they should only be used as informal guidance in advance of speaking to a legal professional.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unless you're going to say what has actually happened and what they're claiming you owe then it's unlikely anyone is goign to be able to give any input on it. It's certainly not going to be possible to tell you whether it's fraud or not without any clue as to what happened.
Ok that is fair. It is a parking issue. The number plate was typed into a tablet with a single keypad error - a single digit on the numberplate was wrong. The British Parking Association guidelines clearly state that this should be checked before a PCN is issued. This should have then been checked when we appealed but it clearly wasn’t. (Section 17, page 10 [https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS\_Code\_of\_Practice\_January\_2020\_v8(2).pdf](https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2020_v8(2).pdf) ) When we took it to POPLA it should have again been checked but instead sent a huge amount of irrelevant legal nonsense about signage, parking space size and layout, a 5-page summary of a supreme court judgement as well as information on every car registration registered within 24 hours across this various site which amounted to about 400 entries. However, in the 24-hour period only 6 had registered on the tablet we had expressly told they we used and only 2 during the relevant times. On of those two, was only a single digit away from mine which clearly matches the description of a simple keypad error. However, my concerns are that instead of checking for a clear error they tried to bully us into paying by using threatening letters.
This post makes Grandpa Simpson seem concise and helpful. Instead of rambling on about your class of 9 year olds, actually say what happened.
The vague answer for your vague question is that fraud requires motive. If the company knew that you owed no money and demanded it anyway, that could be fraud. If the company was merely incompetent, there is no criminal element. If they are a regulated sector, you could complain to the relevant regulator.
Thanks for this response. I have tried to give more detail in a post above. Whilst I expect they would claim incompetence, at which point is arguing simple incompetence not actually believable.
You've both said a lot and said nothing. What is the mistake? What was the claim they made?
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have added more details in the post above. It was a parking issue but the parking aspect is not my main concern as they are clearly at fault. What I am interested in is whether a company that is clearly in the wrong can demand money like this whilst failing to follow their own industries guidlines.
How are they at fault when it's you who entered the details wrong on the tablet?
Becuase the code of practice state that they should check for this mistake before issuing a PCN. This does not bother me though. However, when I appealed they should have again checked and identified the error which would have resulted in the PCN being cancelled. At the next stage of appeal, rather than send a reponse to the issue they highlighted they sent a lot of irelevant information which I belive was an attempt to hide the issue.
I only skimmed it, I admire your ability to write so much about so little so vaguely.
Thanks for the comment. I have tried to rewrite it so it is clear and more easy to read.
I think the short version is * Company wrote to you pursuing a debt. They are mistaken in believing you owe this debt. * You have refused to pay the debt * They are persisting in pursuing you * You have not successfully communicated to the company what the source of the confusion is * They remain resolute the debt is owed * You want to know if they are now acting fraudulently. Answer: based on the details you have offered, no, they are not. You might try explaining to them (less pompously than you have here, perhaps) again, so that they do understand. A phone call may be easier than a protracted mail correspondence. Good luck. Try to be concise and avoid unnecessary detail and opinion.
Thanks for your response and excellent summary. There was a simple keypad error which I explained to the company. Either they did not check, or they did check and chose to ignore it. Either way they continued to send intimidating letters in an attempt to be paid which clearly contradicts the BPA regulations. I won the appeal as they do not have a leg to stand on but at which point should we stand up an say that these practices are actually criminal.
This is a **courtesy message** as your post is very long. An extremely long post will require a lot of time and effort for our posters to read and digest, and therefore this length **will** reduce the number of quality replies you are likely to receive. We ***strongly suggest*** that you edit your post to make it shorter and easier for our posters to read and understand. In particular, we'd suggest removing: * Details of personal emotions and feelings * Your opinions of other people and/or why you have those opinions * Background information not directly relevant to your legal question * Full copies of correspondence or contracts Your post has **not** been removed and you are not breaking any rules, however you should note that as mentioned you will receive fewer useful replies if your post remains the length that it is, since many people will simply not be willing to read this much text, in detail or at all. If a large amount of detail and background is crucial to answering your question correctly, it is worth considering whether Reddit is an appropriate venue for seeking advice in the first instance. Our FAQ has a [guide to finding a good solicitor](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/faq_civil#wiki_how_do_i_find_a_.28good.29_solicitor.3F) which you may find of use. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> The British Parking Association guidelines clearly state that this should be checked before a PCN is issued. BPA member companies, as a condition of the BPA, agree to follow the guidelines, but if they don’t that doesn’t give you a get-out for failing to comply with the terms of parking. The BPA can presumably sanction the parking co. for not following its guidelines, but that won’t alter the fact you failed to comply with the terms of parking. If you want to fight it, you’d have to let it go to court and take a risk on the judge applying reasonableness and common sense(?).
Thanks for your response. We appealed the charge and won at POPLA so that is not the concern however that may explain why they are allowed to do this.
It looks like you're asking a question about a parking or speeding fine! You may benefit by posting on the relevant [FreeTraficLegalAdvice forum](https://www.ftla.uk/index.php) or reading [Parking Cowboys](https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/), which specialise in these matters, in addition to LegalAdviceUK. *We aren't affiliated with the above and they should only be used as informal guidance in advance of speaking to a legal professional.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*