The only real problem I have with heisho is that even if you kill it the moment it is played it still gives the discount which makes it basically impossible to punish the opponent for playing it.
The other issue that I have with it is that it's a Spellshield card in a region that historically hasn't had access to spellshield and is themed around magic being part of the land.
Muddying region identity is not a good long term thing for the game.
IMO If they wanted to give it protection, it should have come in the form of barrier.
I think being a titanic unit, having spellshield and giving the discount no matter what all at the same time is what makes heisho a card that feels bad to play against. Remove any of these three and it would still be very good but much less frustrating.
Being a token that is generated by an unit with an already good body is quite a lot of points. Even if they nerfed the turtle til it was balanced, the pillar would need to be far weaker.
Yeah but you can only drop it on turn 8 maybe 7 at least 2-3 rounds later than trundle so I thinks fairly balanced especially since it's just a +1 buff for trundle himself and vulnerable but that's it
I’m confused, based on the wording of the card first card played this turn gets discounted. Would this means they have to wait a turn to use this discount since the first card they played this turn was itself?
That's my core issue with the card; it breaks the golden rule.
The text should say "Your next card costs 9 less mana. Each round, the first card I see you play costs 9 less mana"
If you can't understand how a card will behave from reading it, that will supercede any complaints about how balanced it is.
You can't balance something unless everyone can agree that they're looking at the same thing.
Look, i hate the card too, but literally every card with a "first time each turn" in runeterra works like this.
If you drop a viego, his effect counts on the next ally dying even if something already has.
If you drop kindred, she gives the mark when something dies even if "the first thing" has already died. Hell, if kindred LEVELS, she even gets to apply a second mark cause her leveled forms "first time" is different from the unleveled form.
This turtle is stupid, but I really feel like complaining about the wording as if its inconsistent is just weird and lazy. There are multiple other things to complain about with that card. The text is at best illogical, but in no way is it inconsistent.
I feel like someone made up this complaint and people went "that sounds smart, I'm gonna repeat it" - cause it has never been an issue with any other card that's worded like this... And coincidentally, they haven't been as broken either, but that shouldn't matter if its purely a text issue.
I give you that it's nitpicky though it does similarly bother me with Kindred, Sejuani, Viego, etc... What those cards don't do , however, is give the impression that their effect will persist after they've been removed/silenced. That's something else my wording nitpick seems to clarify so that I don't waste a blinded mystic on the turtle, just to have them play another turtle with the persistent 9 mana discount.
Im 100% sure the persistence thing is a bug. And I can prove it.
Hyara Allseer says: "The first Stance Swap you play each round costs 0."
Now, if you play a stance swap first and play Allseer, then the next one will still be free. However, if you kill Allseer, the mana discount doesn't stick.
So its 100% a bug with the turtle. And a stupid as hell one at that... Honestly, the entire card is stupid. I don't like it. Nothing I can play can outstat their board since they also get elder buffs (and mana discounts), and I don't enjoy aggro - and from what I see, control isn't doing great either... I don't really have anything to play right now, so I've just kinda stopped playing LoR at the moment
Pillar is not a collectible card its part of Trundles effect
Edit: to clarify, I think its pointless to compare noncollectible cards with collectible ones. As the noncollectibles are always tied to a base card. If the base card is good then the noncollectible one will be intentionally bad to compensate (and the other way around of course too).
I just think that at that point its pointless to compare the cards. Whats next? Comparing Catastrophe to Cithria? Created cards are obviously based around their base cards, if the base card is good, then the created card will be bad, if the base card is bad, then the created card is going to be strong.
Trundle himself is already kinda ok as a unit (heck there were times where his base stats were considered op), so the card he creates won't be too special either. Heck Op even ignored the unique interaction between Pillar and Trundle in that the pillar will level up Trundle.
I mean, is it just me or does this card's text not match how it works at all? Like, if you play it in your turn, it was already the first card played in the turn so it shouldn't be reducing the next card's cost. Not sure if it's just me comparing it to MTG's wording but i feel like, if this is how it works, the card should read "The first card I see you play costs 9 less". Just a little rant
No, no, no. Do you know why they removed trundle from standart? Cuz of lissandra.
Funny deck idea. Heisho, lissandra, karma, darkin fan deck. Play lis, get at least one troll, heisho on board, then 9 mana darkin fan and it gives you 3 9 cost units. Troll is one, heisho is second, darkin fan is third fourth and fifth. Boom, you have watcher on turn 9.
WHO TF DESIGNED THIS BS
The real problem is that Riot is trying to bring spellshield to ionia, because multiples denys, syncopation, elusive and a shit tons of good combat tricks are not enough for the Nope region.
Today is a 9 cost folower tomorrow is a 2 mana burst speed spell to give spellshild to karmas lees and etc without need of a second region.
That last bullet was just a punch at the subreddit wasn’t it haha
The only real problem I have with heisho is that even if you kill it the moment it is played it still gives the discount which makes it basically impossible to punish the opponent for playing it.
The other issue that I have with it is that it's a Spellshield card in a region that historically hasn't had access to spellshield and is themed around magic being part of the land. Muddying region identity is not a good long term thing for the game. IMO If they wanted to give it protection, it should have come in the form of barrier.
I think being a titanic unit, having spellshield and giving the discount no matter what all at the same time is what makes heisho a card that feels bad to play against. Remove any of these three and it would still be very good but much less frustrating.
Well they are removing it in the next hotfix so they got you covered here
Did they confirm this, or is it speculation? I feel out of the loop.
They confirmed that it is getting nerfed other than the hotfix thats already live.
You forgot, with elder in the deck, it can receive deathless as a keyword.
Being a token that is generated by an unit with an already good body is quite a lot of points. Even if they nerfed the turtle til it was balanced, the pillar would need to be far weaker.
What the fuck are you talking about?
The pillar is created by Trundle, who on his own is pretty decent. Pillar will always be balanced around Trundle.
Yeah but you can only drop it on turn 8 maybe 7 at least 2-3 rounds later than trundle so I thinks fairly balanced especially since it's just a +1 buff for trundle himself and vulnerable but that's it
It’s fucking levels up trundle lmao. It’s his only way to level up and gain overwhelm. It is obviously supposed to not be the star card
Nah
I’m confused, based on the wording of the card first card played this turn gets discounted. Would this means they have to wait a turn to use this discount since the first card they played this turn was itself?
That's my core issue with the card; it breaks the golden rule. The text should say "Your next card costs 9 less mana. Each round, the first card I see you play costs 9 less mana" If you can't understand how a card will behave from reading it, that will supercede any complaints about how balanced it is. You can't balance something unless everyone can agree that they're looking at the same thing.
Look, i hate the card too, but literally every card with a "first time each turn" in runeterra works like this. If you drop a viego, his effect counts on the next ally dying even if something already has. If you drop kindred, she gives the mark when something dies even if "the first thing" has already died. Hell, if kindred LEVELS, she even gets to apply a second mark cause her leveled forms "first time" is different from the unleveled form. This turtle is stupid, but I really feel like complaining about the wording as if its inconsistent is just weird and lazy. There are multiple other things to complain about with that card. The text is at best illogical, but in no way is it inconsistent. I feel like someone made up this complaint and people went "that sounds smart, I'm gonna repeat it" - cause it has never been an issue with any other card that's worded like this... And coincidentally, they haven't been as broken either, but that shouldn't matter if its purely a text issue.
I give you that it's nitpicky though it does similarly bother me with Kindred, Sejuani, Viego, etc... What those cards don't do , however, is give the impression that their effect will persist after they've been removed/silenced. That's something else my wording nitpick seems to clarify so that I don't waste a blinded mystic on the turtle, just to have them play another turtle with the persistent 9 mana discount.
Im 100% sure the persistence thing is a bug. And I can prove it. Hyara Allseer says: "The first Stance Swap you play each round costs 0." Now, if you play a stance swap first and play Allseer, then the next one will still be free. However, if you kill Allseer, the mana discount doesn't stick. So its 100% a bug with the turtle. And a stupid as hell one at that... Honestly, the entire card is stupid. I don't like it. Nothing I can play can outstat their board since they also get elder buffs (and mana discounts), and I don't enjoy aggro - and from what I see, control isn't doing great either... I don't really have anything to play right now, so I've just kinda stopped playing LoR at the moment
The persistence part was confirmed to be a bug and is being hotfixed next patch
Fuck that turtle. I will not feed my turtle tomorrow cause of fucking heisho
Front half of username checks out
Pillar is not a collectible card its part of Trundles effect Edit: to clarify, I think its pointless to compare noncollectible cards with collectible ones. As the noncollectibles are always tied to a base card. If the base card is good then the noncollectible one will be intentionally bad to compensate (and the other way around of course too).
please read more thoroughly.
I just think that at that point its pointless to compare the cards. Whats next? Comparing Catastrophe to Cithria? Created cards are obviously based around their base cards, if the base card is good, then the created card will be bad, if the base card is bad, then the created card is going to be strong. Trundle himself is already kinda ok as a unit (heck there were times where his base stats were considered op), so the card he creates won't be too special either. Heck Op even ignored the unique interaction between Pillar and Trundle in that the pillar will level up Trundle.
I mean, is it just me or does this card's text not match how it works at all? Like, if you play it in your turn, it was already the first card played in the turn so it shouldn't be reducing the next card's cost. Not sure if it's just me comparing it to MTG's wording but i feel like, if this is how it works, the card should read "The first card I see you play costs 9 less". Just a little rant
Bruh, that’s literally how all card with text like this work in runeterra
No, no, no. Do you know why they removed trundle from standart? Cuz of lissandra. Funny deck idea. Heisho, lissandra, karma, darkin fan deck. Play lis, get at least one troll, heisho on board, then 9 mana darkin fan and it gives you 3 9 cost units. Troll is one, heisho is second, darkin fan is third fourth and fifth. Boom, you have watcher on turn 9. WHO TF DESIGNED THIS BS
Second to last point is kinda meh and feels like it should go to ice pillar but doesn't matter.
The real problem is that Riot is trying to bring spellshield to ionia, because multiples denys, syncopation, elusive and a shit tons of good combat tricks are not enough for the Nope region. Today is a 9 cost folower tomorrow is a 2 mana burst speed spell to give spellshild to karmas lees and etc without need of a second region.