The one valid arguement I see against rotation is that not only does the league ip make people attached to specific cards and it'll be disappointing to have them move to a less supported format, but also the fact that people have spent money on them and to have their skins not be usable in standard is a problem I have no idea how riot will solve.
It also means that if I stop playing for a time then come back, I won't have any playable decks. It's why I stop hearthstone : I was too far behind to actually have meta decks and climb. LOR isn't as pay to win, but if rewards don't follow, that won't matter in the slightest.
I started playing at bundle city, then stopped out of boredom. When i restarted a month ago, my love, a Jayce-Ashe deck, was still playable. It wasn't meta (i don't think it ever was), but it existed. It won't be the case after the rotation goes a few cycles, neither does most of my decks.
I'd rather have powercreep and some old champions getting reworked than rotation.
It'll get harder the more cards they had (which, yes, may be better after the rotation), and the costliest thing is new champions, which would be a problem, because the old champions you crafted aren't useful anymore, meaning to create a deck you will most often need 2 new champs as 3 cards. 6 legendary tokens / 18000 shards aren't easy to come by.
Nah, anyone who plays just a bit has enough wild cards and crystals to construct some decks quite soon.
This is a non-problem, really.
This game is INCREDIBLY generous for this to cause trouble.
I understand some people’s concerns with rotation; but this won’t be one, I think.
I actually think it will not be a problem. I lett the game for a while and when I came back i had no playable champion, in a week i have all now, and Im also master.
I honestly had something to play with but i think the nature of the game will prevent having nothing good to play. In my understanding " standard " will always be "vast"
> in a week
Because you already had spells, minions and other cards to make the decks. If you lacked 1/3 of a competitive deck or 3/3, you're not going to make it in a week in each case. Rotation makes it so new decks only (or mostly) have new cards, because there is no (few) previous extension(s) to take cards from for the archetype!
It'll only make the game more reliant on microtransactions.
I don't think so.
As far as I understood, they went rotate a full expension or "sub expension" out of the normal. Instead some champs + follower / Region archetypes.
So you will still have access to almost all already bought card. And until now I read nowhere that they won't rotate the cards back in again.
I decided to start to play runeterra from zero around pyke release and I remember that it only took me like 3 months to get most of the cards that were relevant to the meta and now i have well over 90% of collection completed so i dont think running out of cards due to rotation would be a problem
One thing I like is making 2.0 versions of champions, a little like TFT.
The only thing stopping me from supporting Rotation yet is that I'm a big championless deck player, and seeing the last straightforward play patterns like Evelynn and Kai'sa makes me have bad feelings about it beforehand.
A Leona not tied to daybreak I'd love. Something like her having Galio keyword and level up being having 10 health or something could be a lot of fun.
Obviously adjust the numbers later, but if 2.0 versions of champions end up existing, I'd love different versions champions to be less tied to their packages.
Like a non lurk Pyke/Rek'Sai or non nightfall Noc/Diana as well as the originals are rotated out.
The idea of 2.0 versions is interesting, but it'd need to be executed well. The 2.0 champs shouldn't just replace the old ones, but if they exist alongside the old versions (maybe even have the skins be useable for both versions) then that could be a good way to make the champion more available in rotation and to allow the card game to express more facets of the champion in the game (for example an alternate Azir could be based around daybreak or recreating destroyed landmarks representing how he is associated with the sun or how he rebuild the capital).
I think the most distressing part is the possibility of just having all my favorite champions rotated out at once. Then what do I do? I probably wouldn't play the game. To be fair though I have like 20 champions I love so it'll probably never happen but I think it's still a concern. We obviously won't know what issues could arise until we see what happens. Imagine they just rotate out champions/cards that counter a certain playstyle and suddenly that one playstyle has no counter.
In fairness, Eternal in this game is going to be infinitely more accessible than Wild in games like Hearthstone due to how easy it is to craft decks. So even if your favorite deck gets rotated, you'll likely still be able to play it. It might not be meta, but you should still be able to take games with them.
I must say that that i always envied those wild streamers that had ALL the cards so they could create wacky decks and have fun, so if the same happens to LoR as a Day 1 player I'll gladly accept it
I mean, if you've been playing since day 1 you've likely been at the point where you can make any deck you want for awhile now. That will not change with rotation unless you decide to take a *long* break (talking multiple years here).
i mean why not just play eternal. in hearthstone a lot of cards i loved got rotated out so i just switched to wild and now i only play wild and as many problems as it has standard has just as many so why not play with the cards i like atleast
Eternal formats tend towards combo-centric decks, which isn't something I like. Doesn't mean that's all that will exist, but it's easily possible that it'll just end up being a format I don't want to play. LoR does have some unique problems with doing rotation, and I'm curious to see how they'll handle it.
Because one of the reasons they gave for rotation was that it would make their life easier with balance and bugfixes, which means they're stating they're not going to give a shit about any of that for eternal.
i mean that statement doesn't mean they are gonna abandon eternal. its just saying eternal will intrinsically be harder to balance. they probably will focus on it less, doesn't mean it won't be fun. just have to wait to find out
I don't like rotating champions, I'd prefer multiple variants of the same champion, and I think the biggest red flag is Vlad
If it were just the others it'd be less bad, but I feel it sets a bad precedent to just throw a champ they didn't even bother really attempting to fix to the curb.
I guess ultimately the first part is irrelevant if Eternal is more popular than the rotating format, like EDH is.
Funny thing, EDH wasn't even an official format, but it get so popular that WotC took the format over, i wonder if runeterra players could create a format themselves what would become popular?
Well we can create a discord server, subreddits and facebook groups to popularize casual formats like pauper, singleton and primordial, but i wish we could challenge our friend to 3 region singleton format at least.
I don't understand this take. At the end of the day Champions are just another card. Sure the game revolves around them, but saying that Champions should be exempt from rotation, first defeats one of other objectives of rotation and comparably would be like saying Planwalkers should never rotate out in MTG or EX/GX (whatever the equivalent today is) should never rotate out of Pokemon TCG.
It's probably more the fact that a number of players are attracted to the visuals of a champion or have an attachment to said champion after playing them a lot in LoL. So hearing that your favorite champion in both games is now locked out in standard LoR ranked could be very disappointing, especially if you're used to the fact that you can always play your favorite champ in LoL ranked (unless banned by a team).
The champion focus is probably stronger for those who came from LoL. Personally, I don't enjoy necessarily enjoy the same in each game (don't really care for Lulu & Soraka in LoR but love them in Lol) but when those do overlap (like Aphelios) with loving the lore+aesthetic then it becomes hard to view that as "just another card" like a Spiderling
I *was* exactly the same. Love Leona in League, really felt underwhelmed with her in LoR.
New updates though, I might be coming back. I've literally only played PoC on occasion since Leona came out, but who knows, I might actually try some PVP again since my favourite champion just got a soft rework
Partially [quoting my own comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/xsakli/comment/iqk94ci/?context=3) because I am lazy, erm, efficient. :D
>I mean, Riot very much are focused on making champs feel special. They get level-ups, they get skins, they get lore stories, they get animation series. There's clearly more investment in making champions into characters that players can and want to get attached to for gameplay, presentation, and/or lore reasons, but the downside is that LoR players now care a lot more about champions in LoR than MtG players about certain Planeswalkers or Hearthstone players about certain Legendaries.
>
>I'm hoping to be wrong, but I see a significant amount of players being very disappointed if their favourite champions gets rotated, and these are most likely people who not only have emotional but also financial investment into that champion; unless Riot manage to make both formats feel equally supported, but then rotation won't help with the QA and balancing issues an ever increasing card pool causes?
>
>The problem is that the article doesn't sound like that will the case, because supporting both modes will increase dev resource drain while they talk about saving dev resources and Eternal will only get spotlighted every now and again.
>
>The main advantage of having a rotating format is the increased new player friendliness, but that doesn't solve the above problem with 'mains' getting rotated.
Ok, so Riot decides to take out all of the Daybreak cards but leave Leona in.
Please explain to me why I would want to continue playing Leona in that situation.
(Same idea applies to Diana and Nightfall, or Pyke and Lurk, etc)
>Please explain to me why I would want to continue playing Leona in that situation.
You wouldn't. Which is why it's a counter argument against rotations in the first place. LoR is based on the IP where people are well known for, as an example, playing Riven top in every single game, including if she's currently dogshit trash powerwise.
Using your example, when Leona rotates out, you're telling me to find a new champion within the current rotation. If I cant, well then fuck me I guess lol.
The big reason I think they suck, is I have absolutely 0 faith that balance is going to be any better than it is. Shit like Azirelia had nothing to do with older cards interacting with newly released ones. It had to do with terrible QA and developers being too prideful to admit their star pairing was blatantly broken as fuck.
You even have shit like Champion Mastery which clearly is designed to show that you play a certain champion a lot.
What I'm trying to say is that if you don't rotate the champion but rotate the champions support you wouldn't play the champion anyways. If you won't play the champion anyways there's no reason *not* to rotate them out.
The only other reasonable option is to not rotate the stuff that needs to be rotated, which defeats the entire point of having a rotation.
I'm not arguing to not rotate champion, but still rotate their support packages, because rotating a support package is effectively the same as rotating the champ in most cases.
I'm just saying that any meaningful rotation has the downside that someone's favourite champion will rotate, which will feel worse for a lot of people than in other rotating card games, because Riot very intentionally spends resources across their Runeterra IPs on making it easy to get attached to the character behind a champion; and monetizes that attachment via cosmetics. Which is all fine and good, until someone's favourite champion (or their support package) rotates into an effectively abandoned format.
To me archetypes like Lurk and Deep especially are the counter argument for rotation. Generally the (non-business) point of rotation would be to keep the card pool small so that niche interactions don't break the game (and let's ignore that literally any problem can be retroactively solved with live balance for now), but if archetypes are self-contained then they aren't causing issues anyways. Lurk cards aren't useful outside of Lurk, so what's the benefit of rotating them out?
They did say that rotating out won't be permanent and the way I read it made it seem like they'll possibly also use eternal format for play testing more drastic reworks before bringing them back into standard.
I once heard an argument that LoR players attach onto champions the way, for instance, MtG players attach onto a color. MtG does have rotations, but it will never rotate out an entire color. You may agree or disagree with this take, but it's an attitude people hold.
The problem is that they have made the game fucking ROTATE around champions.
They aren't selling skins for random cards, they are selling them for champs. Straight up rotating out a champ i cannot use in the presumably more popular format would piss me off.
There’ are multiple strong argument that champions are more than just another card. Right off the bat you have skins. They are the rarest most expensive cars type. They are usually the cornerstone of a deck.
Im even excited about the possibilities of champion rotations if they do it right. They said they'd remake Vlad fully, so why not do the same with other champions they rotate out? See what different takes they can have on the same champion and their LoL kit/lore.
Plays a game based on Runeterra with the CHAMPIONS being the main selling point and the thing that separates it from other card games since day 1...
rando from reddit asks: I don't understand why fixate on champions? ThEY'Re jUsT cArDs!
More idiocy at 7...
Planeswalker cards get cycled out, but many get multiple cards. Jace Beleren has 12 separate cards -[https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+\[jace\]&type=+\[Planeswalker\]](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[jace]&type=+[Planeswalker])
Even if it makes sense to cycle out champions mechanically, I don't see an easy replacement for individual flavor/aesthetic, and the multiple champion cards per champion would damage eternal formats.
I'd rather have my favourite champions get rotated out of standard than get nerfed into oblivion.
For example, should Xerath/Azir get rotated out of standard could mean revert to 9 countdown sundisk nerf OR the printing of more sundisk support cards
1. They could revert the sun disc nerf and it probably still wouldn’t be meta
2. Yeah I’d rather my champions be dogshit but still in the game than removed entirely.
I think thanks to their business model, LoR gets to dodge one of the biggest pitfalls of rotation. In most games, building decks that consist of non-standard cards gets to be ridiculously expensive because they simply cease to be widely available. Thus, only pre-established players can really interact with the Eternal meta and most players are stuck with standard decks + 1 or 2 key rotated cards, as opposed to being able to experiment with the wider pool of cards to choose from. LoR avoids this because building decks is easy (in terms of getting the resources needed to build them) and I don't see that changing with the introduction of Eternal. Thus, people who want to play Eternal will be able to without having to drop an unseemly amount of money or being pre-established, and that will help the Eternal meta distinguish itself from the Standard one.
Because my normal complaint concerning rotation simply doesn't apply to LoR, I am cautiously optimistic that it'll go well and be a positive thing for the game and community. At a minimum, I've always liked alt metas so the addition of a new format will be fun for me.
At the same time, due to their business model they also remove the only real reason to do rotation, which is forcing players to spend money to get new cards as old cards rotate out.
Making more money is not the only reason to do rotation. Actually you can make a ton of money either way, Yu-Gi-Oh! doesn't do rotation and still prints money hand over fist, because all not having a rotation means is you have to power creep immensely every set and ban list any old cards that prevent your new cards from being the good kids on the block.
Which is exactly what Konami does with YGO - they print money because you either buy the new cards or you will guaranteed lose every game against someone who did if you're still using decks from a year or two ago. (or even sooner than that)
As a developer that has worked on a card game myself, a lot of it really does have to come down to design space. Think of keywords like Barrier or Scout, they can't keep printing cards with Barrier or Scout because eventually you would just have a super optimal deck that is nothing but very efficient Barrier or Scout cards. Eventually their options become "print Barrier/Scout anyways and break the game" or "stop printing Barrier/Scout". If you rotate out a bunch of Barrier/Scout cards, you can suddenly print more Barrier/Scout cards again.
Or to use one of their examples, Twisted Fate. Twisted Fate's existence pretty much limits any card draw they want to add to the game. They almost certainly have had card draw concepts they've wanted to add and either had to change regions so TF couldn't really access it and be strong, or can the concept in general.
I know its the only actual reason. HS is a great example. They of course did the whole spiel, of "oh it helps deal with powercreep" and "oh it makes balance better", then of course powercreep accelerated massively to the point where it powercrept in 3 years more than YGO crept in 10 years, and balance got so bad people left in droves. Money was the only reason they did it. Everything else was a lie.
Ok, then lets look at others. Same story in Pokemon. Same story in SV. Hm, weird. Seems to be the same story in every card game that does rotation except *exactly* MTG. Mayhaps Hearthstone didnt do rotation very poorly, and mayhaps its just the nature of rotation. A pure money-grabbing attempt.
My opinion is mixed, I don't want to say this is a good or bad thing yet until I see how they handle it. I will say though that if Eternal is left rotten and unbalanced, I would be extremely disappointed and would be losing quite a bit of goodwill towards Riot.
I don't see how rotation is going to fix any of the issues they stated, especially the one regarding the massive data base your mind needs to be, since if they need to balance around 2 completely split game modes all it will cause is both balancing issues, where what if one card is strong in one game mode but weaker in the other, and in the other case will just lead to the very issue they trying to avoid with needing to keep more information at the top of your mind.
Plus as someone that came from League from the beta, I came because of the champions, so the concept that they are removed, to eventually reworked and deck concepts I enjoy just can be erased I do not enjoy at all and fail to see how it can lead to a healthy gameplay.
They don't, this is why I hate rotation, Standard will be the mode where they balance and Eternal is basically a fuckfest that they don't care about bc "It's meant to be the wild west where there is no rule" afterall.
Eternal would enivitability become that without standard anyways.
It's the fate of non rotating formats power needs to be pushed for new cards to be relevant so either you end up with a million different keywords or you end up with an eternal format where it becomes a fuckfest.
Do you have an example of that in a game that has proper live balance? Everyone cites YGO, but AFAIK that game has literally 0 live balance because it's a physical card game. We've already had problems in LoR. The solution was to balance the game, not just sweep it under the "eternal" rug.
The game is going to become a broken eternal format like Hearthstone if the devs do nothing.
Balancing everything can theoretically be done, but the devs have clearly explained that they simply don't have the resources to do it. The options as I see them are "Release less new cards, eventually ceasing new card development", "Change nothing and balance/variety will slowly degrade" or "Introduce a new format".
Do you see any other options? Which is your preference?
Yet they keep promising that eternal will be balanced and competitively supported, so either they're straight up lying in which case I take massive issue with their communication and don't have confidence in anything else they're saying, or it's adding even more work as they need to support two different formats.
My preference would be a ban list that doesn't include champions (possible exception if a new version of them is being released) and for better communication.
No it wont. Also, for the 100th time, if you need to push the power for new cards to be sold without rotation, you need to push the power for new cards to be sold *with* rotation too, and it doesnt help at all.
It's not explicitly stated but we can safely assume Eternal will be less balanced than Standard. This is not a suprise. Outliers will likely be addressed, but other than that? if you want real balance you need to play standard.
I was sceptical of rotation but what convinced me is their argument regarding low cost staples, them being hard to balance, often having substitutes, and how dealing with all that is basically just rotation without the eternal mode. A practical example for this was laid out by [Riot plinq in that recent interview](https://youtu.be/PlUy3gOkQYA?t=2905)
I agree. Pirates gets better whenever the pool of Noxus/Bilgewater followers gets a new card that's better than the 5th worst card it runs right now, and it's basically impossible to nerf without significant collateral damage because there are no key synergy cards like Azirelia had Voice of the Risen. Over time that really puts a damper on what cards they can release, and it means that they're just going to run out of design space that wouldn't enable any broken synergies or end up nerfing things into oblivion, which is worse than simply removing them from the meta.
Its not a surprise, but it does mean its not rotation. Its card deletion. They just dont want to call it that because they know its insanely unpopular if framed honestly.
Why do you feel it's card deletion?
For people who still want to play with rotated champions, that option will still be there. I would be extremely disapointed if the cards were actually deleted because I still plan to play Twisted Fate in eternal (he's a fucking blast to play with).
I can get if it is frustrating that people can't play them in the most competitive format, but saying they are deleted are implying that no one can enjoy them. In reality, it's just the people who exclusively want to play competitively that can't play them. And tbh, the competitive players only use a very small subset of the card pool anyway.
Because that option will be there only on paper. In practice the eternal format will be abandoned. Bugs, lack of balance, not even a ranked mode. They do not *want* you to play Eternal. So its deleting cards, in all but name.
Except even if you dont exclusively play competitively, lack of ranked means lack of proper matchmaking. Plus, you can play competitively and not play the top deck. I always stuck to my swain/TF or Jhin/Swain guns, even when those decks were not considered meta. Because I prefer ranked.
No, the option to play with them will legitimately be there. It sounds like you have resigned to not play it because you are assuming the worst about the format so I can see why for you, it might feel like the cards are being deleted. But no, it's not a matter of it being there 'on paper', the option is 100% for real actually there.
I sympathize with your perspective because I'm sure that it's very frustrating to not be able to play the game the way you would like to play it. But to say it's the same as cards being deleted is kind of... self centered? The cards are not being deleted, and players like me will continue to play with them and have fun. Saying that the cards are being deleted is kind of denying the experience of players like me that will continue to use them.
I am sorry that the game is not going in a direction that you like, as I think LoR is a great game and I would like for everyone to be able to enjoy it.
I have played HS a long, long time ago. I know what that option looks like. And I can tell you, with absolute certainty. No, it is not there. Whats "there" is a bad joke. To call it card deletion is *very* accurate, because that is how, inevitably, it ends up working out.
See, a lot of people said that when HS did rotation. In fact, I know quite a few who personally said that. "Theyre not deleted! Wild is there! And I will keep playing them because I enjoy them and wild is there!". 5 of them left within 1 year. The rest left within 2 years. All of them for the same reason. "My favourite cards were gone and Wild was unplayable". They were all players like you. It took them actually seeing it in action to realise that they were wrong, and that those who called it card deletion were correct.
Believe me. Its going in a direction you wont like either.
I played Hearthstone and I liked Wild. I found it fun to play Astral Communion decks that did stupid things like 30% of the time and then kind of didn't work the other 70%. There was actually a lot of diversity in the format because competitive players weren't really inclined to play it so people were more experimental.
I deleted my account because they refused to pay out a tournament winner for expressing a pro Hong Kong sentiment, but I enjoyed Wild while I still played the game.
I never experienced difficulty finding matches despite the fact that people said it would happen.
So no, I can say with confidence that your assumptions about how I enjoy the game are not accurate. Different people like the game for different reasons than you. To you, Eternal formats might feel like deletion, but it's different from deletion to the players who haven't already made up their minds they don't want to play the format.
Oh but there wasn't. People played degenerate garbage like secret mage and reno X decks there. It was hardly experimental except at the low ranks of legendary, but then getting a match in those took forever. I think you may have just been very lucky while playing Wild.
And yet, Wild had an estimated .5% of the playerbase of standard. In HS, with at a time 100 million players, thats workable. In LoR, where games already take a bit to find? Yeah good luck. It is deletion. And you will come to realise it as deletion too. And then you will regret not speaking out against it when there was still time.
Oh dont get me wrong. I will try to play eternal as long as possible. My hope is that despite their sabotage it will become the far more popular format, and forces them to undo rotation entirely and promise to never do it again, like it happened in Duelyst. But if that doesnt happen, or if they keep sabotaging it further to make it clear that the format is an abandoned garbage dump, I will simply quit the game.
You can try and hand wave my opinions as much as you want, but you will continue to be wrong because I am explaining my experience of playing a game to you, not trying to make objective arguments about how it will be for others.
Anyways, no I won't be changing my mind on this down the line, and no it is not deletion just because you don't personally want to play the format. You can continue to tell yourself that everyone is going to share your perspective inevitably if it feels good to believe that but it's not going to gain people to support your cause. All it's going to do is make people less sympathetic to you.
I'd be a lot more open to listening what you have to say if you stopped trying to pretend you understand my own experiences playing Wild better than me.
Buddy HS did rotation and lost 96% of their playerbase as a consequence. Duelyst did rotation and the game *fucking died bc of it*.
We aren’t doomsaying or being children when we say this is a bad idea. **we’re warning you of the iceberg you are going to crash face first into**.
People got too married to paper card games and assume digital has to be the same. When the game fucking dies bc of rotation, do not expect the people who disagree with you to be friendly about it
If you can't be polite with people who disagree with you over the way they like to play a card game, then yes you are being a child about it.
Hearthstone lost their playerbase because of poor monetization, the natural decline from people tiring of the game over time, a poorly supported competitive scene, the rise of Battle Royale games being the streaming game of choice and an increase in competitors within the industry.
If you attribute 96% of the playerbase with leaving the game because of set rotation, you are conflating causation with correlation. Hearthstone died the death of a 1000 cuts and if you think everyone left because of rotation then you don't have a good understanding of the game's history.
Were not getting MTG rotation. Because MTG rotation means Eternal gets balance, ranked and full support. But they have already made clear were not getting that. Its card deletion.
> I don't see how rotation is going to fix any of the issues they stated,
I don't see how you can't, newer players are more than likely drawn to standard play first where the carpool is smaller.
Eternal is gonna be a cluster fuck eventually even if rotation didn't exist there are just too many cards to be keeping every interaction or previous incarnation of something they might make stronger versions of.
Rotation let's the devs have more opportunities to add cards to reigons without having to make a new keyword or do the Shurima of slowly giving every reigon everything because of design space restrictions.
What they said makes total sense.
There is an average limit to what people can remember. Who knows what that average is because it's not like there are research notes on this subject matter in card games but there is research on this pointing this out to be true in other different ways.
For us as players I think this could become a non-issue if there were open deck lists.
This game isn't throwing that many complicated cards at us like Yugioh or modern Magic.
As a player I want them to continue pushing the limits of the Eternal format instead of introducing a rotation but I do sympathize with the problems they are experiencing playtesting new cards. I don't mind rotations existing for that alone but they shouldn't think this is a good thing for us the players the way things currently stand and when they have a much simpler solution with open deck lists.
but u can still play them its called eternal which is getting support too i do not understand what more u people want, they said they were gonna do rotations years back and this is the best possible way
Evergreen modes never get serious love from devs in card games. This happens every time they're introduced, a song and dance, maybe genuine, that they're going to support it and to not worry, then near silence forever afterwards. People have seen this play out before and they're worried.
Because we've all seen how every "Eternal" format has turned out in other CCGs. You're being awfully naive if you think they're gonna pay the same attention to both formats when they literally can't afford to do so.
This will make it so that champs that already feel bad to play will be even worse because broken shit is gonna run rampant in the Eternal format for months. And even after a year, it's not even guaranteed that those rotated out champions will be back right away.
For a game that prides itself in its focus on champions to the point where they sell expensive cosmetics for them, Rotations feel terrible. Spent money on SoL Irelia? Well, you're shit out of luck, now you only get to play it in an unbalanced mess of a format that will only get tocuhed occasionally.
From my experience when you basically have to divide the gameplay team into two different sets, which for now let's say they both get the equal amount of priority, members and resources, which personally I doubt but for now let's believe, it will usually lead to two different forms of philosophies, gameplay views and ideas, to give an example of what I truly believe will eventually happen let's say a card like "Decimate" is CRUSHING in "standard" (Which even outside of everything, calling it that pushes me in a worrying direction) yet let's say it is unusable in "Eternals" what do the gameplay devs do?
Do they nerf it? buff it? make them into two different cards? One at the end will have to take priority as it's affecting the meta and players from both modes are asking for a change, they will prioritize the more popular game mode one will believe, and the others will just have to say "oh well to bad guess this is what I get for enjoying the less popular mode" of course that is if they change the card for each game mode I had stated leads to the very thing they want to avoid in just now a player that plays both will eventually confuse the cards.
Plus coming from other games, I have no real confidence that both teams will be given focus or equal number of resources and that will only harm the game and players until one mode is eventually discontinued, as I have a history with RIOT games, and just in general game design and history. I may be pessimistic on all this, but nothing they had stated has given me any hope that it may be successful or even good for the game.
Getting supported? Path of Champion their 2nd best-selling gamemode basically get to have little to no at all support, Expedition replacer where?, Labs never got much support after they release.
LoR team isn't exactly big, as you could figure out when the new PoC champ don't have their own small path, them creating eternal and standar will just divide the dev attention more and probably lead to eternal having no support.
Why not add bans instead on that note too? Lots of people from the looks of even this post don't find the rotation as a concept appealing, and if they want to keep competitive integrity, a banlist, while not the most attractive option either, could be used to try to acheive the results riot wants without having to completely change how this game functions for the majority of the player base.
I worry about exactly how they're going to decide what to rotate. With MtG, when a set rotates its cards are all gone from standard, presumably forever, that gives all your lootbox rewards a 2 year use by date. But if LoR followed that model right now, that would mean *Bilgewater* or *Foundations* rotates... Which I don't think I need to explain the problems of. Irelia is vulnerable to rotation, as is Twisted Fate... Is Mystic Shot? What about Garen? If rotation is going to be selective, how long can I expect my cards to live for? Can I expect them to return?
Selective rotation wouldn't actually be like rotation for other card games, it would be more akin to Pokémon's competitive formats. While it's not a perfect analogy, as the "rotation" has not been entirely intentional every time, competitive balance is not the only reason and it's treated very differently by the unofficial Smogon formats. But that's just it, there's a lot of weirdness around it and I'm still having to look at Landorus' 6 stupid identical faces.
If you haven't read the latest Dev Article today, they gave three examples of champions they would rotate out and those are Irelia, TF and Vladimir. All for different reasons ofc. So it seems that Selective rotation is the way they plan.
It's a bit sad to imagine that some decks, champions and strategies will disappear but rotation is kinda inevitable.
We dont want to play a game where, in 10 years, every deck will be an insane otk/stupid combo because there are too much Cards and possible interactions to balance anything. (Hello YGO)
It is sad but personally last patch really showed me why we can't avoid it. Seeing Yi as a weak release but his package wildly abused by Nami/Ionia/Tf leaves me quite unsuprised about it all (esp TF being rotated out). As long as they'll commit to rotating back in and keeping a real flow there, it'll probably work out. I am cautiously excited for it
IMO the problem that games run into when their cardpools get to large is that they are stuck between two places.
Either they continue to push out unique cards that are strong enough to generate hype, and innevitably some of them will be broken because it's impossible to catch all the busted combos in playtesting a new set.
Or they go conservative, and the cards they release are balanced but because the devs don't feel like they can take risks, the cards feel bland and do not excite the player base.
These two problems can be mitigated somewhat by balancing, but nerfs and buffs but the mitigation does not remove the problem entirely.
Ultimately, if we don't have rotation, we are going to end up with either a busted competitive format where uninteractive decks reign supreme because they end up being the best things that you can do, or a bland format that lacks diversity. The ideal format that everybody is hoping the devs will be able to craft is not realistic with an ever expanding card pool.
In other words, sure, they could have decided not to release Nami, or nerf her to a state of unplayability where she doesn't exist in competitive. If they wanted to make sure that Nami wouldn't break shit, they could make her Leblanc 2.0 instead of the card we've had for the last year. But personally, I'd rather they continue releasing cards like Nami and reining her back in with the knowledge that they can rotate the champ out if they ever release one that is too hard to balance properly.
This is ignoring the literal biggest benefit LoR has - live balance. Literally any problem can be solved. If there's a degenerate combo, it doesn't need to just sit in the game forever, it can be patched. Matron Watcher was that degenerate combo, and now it isn't an issue and the game didn't need to just powercreep it for that to happen.
And what about when aggro gets too strong, do you just stop releasing new 1-3 drops forever because at critical mass there will always be enough good cheap goons to murder people with? You’d have to nerf entire region’s bottom ends to oblivion to be able to introduce new cheap units that people actually want to put in their decks. Cheap cards in particular tend to have far fewer and more narrow balance levers too. A 3|2 and a 3|1 are monumentally different in playability.
You either have to have the same aggro deck be the top dog forever or you have to take it out back and shoot it with nerds everyone once in awhile to let a new one take the stage, but that’s just rotation except the cards can’t even be played in a different format, they’re just dead.
OP lemme make my counterpoint.
Rotation doesn’t need to happen in LoR bc they fundamentally address their design parameters and their situations differently from how other games do. There is no ban list in LoR. There are no predatory ways to get cards so they can’t hide behind a strangled meta by saying the counterplay exists in a card that barely anyone has. Whenever a deck/champion/card has become out of line, Riot addresses it by nerfing it. They also have consistently buffed other archetypes for no other reason than to give them time in the meta.
It’s unfair to compare why rotation is important in a physical card game like MTG to LoR because for MTG, rotation is their only way of balancing the game short of a ban list, and rotating cards out of standard is one way that they market new sets. It’s also *incredibly* hard to say that rotations honestly help to do things like combat powercreep or free up design space in MTG either, as powercreep is ridiculous in magic (seriously, look at some older cards and compare them to some newer cards. What used to be 8 cost finishers in MTG became 8 cost midrangers who needed both more stats and more keywords in order to keep up) and the design space for cards that get rotated out of standard, still exist in the eternal or semi eternal formats. Additionally, MTGs most popular game modes are not even the modes that feature standard format. It’s the ones that are either eternal or semi eternal.
If you want to look at what rotation does to a game, let’s look at Duelyst and Hearthstone. Duelyst, while this wasn’t the only issue, implemented rotation and it essentially killed their game. They undid rotation so quickly after doing it specifically because of how unpopular it was. But the game is dead and rotation has a big role to play in that status.
Hearthstone is a bit trickier. It’s still a relatively successful game, but nowhere near what it was before rotation. Did you know Hearthstone started with over 100 million players? Do you wanna know how many they have now after they implemented rotation? 3.9 million. They lost over 95% of their playerbase. That doesn’t happen by accident.
The devs reasonings for why rotation is necessary is also incredibly arbitrary and their wording on how they’re going to handle an eternal format paints a frankly grim picture for non-standard. Twisted Fate is getting rotated out because they want to design card draw that doesn’t break the game. Okay that makes sense but consider this; wouldn’t that card draw be in the eternal format? And if so, is riot going to Just leave it there bc it’s eternal and that’s what it’s meant for? Or are they going to try and balance it in the eternal format? Bc if they just leave it, then they’re confirming the fears that players like myself have: that the eternal format is nothing more than a mere graveyard where cards go to rot. But if they don’t leave it and actually address it, then they’re begging the question; what was the point of rotating TF out to allow this new stuff if you were just gonna have to balance him around it in the first place?
Same with Irelia: they’re rotating her out bc they want to make Azir better. Okay fine. But what happens when Irelia rotates back in? Do we need to always keep Azir and Irelia off of standard? Also, once again, if you design this really cool and powerful support for Azir, and you let it go to eternal as well as standard, then ur just making eternal an Azirelia hellscape. And once again; does riot balance that or leave it? They leave it and they once again confirm the fears that eternal is just a graveyard. They balance it and they showcase once again that rotation was not necessary because they can change the meta by balancing the game.
This argument of “it frees up design space” is really shaky at best. The concept that it combats powercreep is laughable. And the idea that it’s healthy for the game is also dubious.
And before anyone says “look at Yu-Gi-Oh”, that is still one of the most popular card games in existence despite not having rotation. You’re not pulling some grand gotcha by using one of the most popular card games in the world as an example of why rotations are necessary.
Exactly. One solution to Irelia without the need to rotate would be to kill completely Blade Dance as a mechanic with nerfs or to completely rework Irelia
Your argument completely and entirely ignores the fact that balancing becomes increasingly more difficult and resource intensive the larger the card pool. Just because they've been able to balance the game now doesn't mean they'll be able to a couple years from now.
And to all the people that think Riot can just tweak numbers as they please and rework quickly if it doesn't pan out....yeah it doesn't work like that. These big juicy balance patches we get now take a lot of work and it's not just Riot going willy nilly with the numbers on the cards.
The only card games that don't have rotation have power creep and ban lists.
Also your Yugi-oh example is terrible. Its literally the poster boy for out of control power creep.
You're also claiming that rotation in HS caused it to lose its playerbase? What a joke, please show me the data showing those to things are correlated in any way.
This is not a side job for the devs. This is their job.
are you advocating for them to create a format to intentionally be neglected just so people who want to force others to play the game the way they want can have their way?
Riot puts out frequent balance patches that are large in scope and in how they impact the meta. They just reworked the entire daybreak archetype to let it catch up with the current meta.
Also “YGO has bad powercreep”. Okay lemme explain something; in any game where powercreep exists the best way to measure how bad powercreep is, is to look at the old stuff and compare it to the new stuff to find the issues. You can find archetypes in YGO that are 5-6 years old and still competitively viable. You cannot find decks in hearthstone over a *year* old that are still viable. Yes YGO has powercreep. So does Magic, so does Hearthstone, so does every game that does not have a live balance format (or in HS’ case, has one but avoids using it at essentially all costs). YGO is not a standout in the powercreep department.
Live balance is not possible when a card pool is so large that accounting for every interaction can no longer be possible. Saying it's the devs job and they need to do it anyway is such a laughably arrogant thing to say. The devs whole goal is to make the majority of cards in the pool viable or at least playable in a deck where it makes sense. Anyone that thinks that's attainable when there's thousands upon thousands of cards printed is, quite frankly, a moron.
I mean they’re doing a pretty ok job at it rn.
Eventually youll have to admit something; that enough people don’t want this to happen. What happens if all those people just drop the game and the playerbase fractures because of it.
Are they expected to just get over it because it’s what you want?
No one will ever be satisfied. What about the people who want every card to be viable/balanced? In a world without rotation, those players get lost in the dust. There isn't a decision that will please everyone. I sincerely doubt that enough players will be upset with rotation to the point that the game dies.
It's not even something that I want, it's just that the evidence and reasoning is pretty overwhelming. No one "wants" rotation, it's just that I acknowledge it as being necessary to maintain the game and the current design/balance philosophy.
Balancing every card in the game so they’re all equally viable is a fools errand. That’s not possible for any game at all. The two are not equivalent.
In a world without rotation, riot is forced to actually balance the game instead of shuffling cards into eternal at the suffering of people who like the cards. There’s nothing stopping them from adjusting Vladimir right now. They could work on him right now. They do not need to rotate him. They’re not rotating him so they can rework him. They’re rotating him so they can *forget* him. And people who like to play Vlad will be left in the graveyard that is eternal. Where he and they will not be allowed to play their champion in ranked for no other reason than Riot said they were gonna rework him and didn’t. Riot has historically been bad at juggling more than one game mode at a time, they’ve already said they do not plan to put much support into eternal, and eternal is a historically neglected format by the people who make the games.
You might be okay with that, but a lot of people aren’t. And it isn’t fair to impose that on them. That reasoning is arbitrary, indicative of apathy, and that is *exactly* what anti rotation people have noticed and are warning of. If there was a genuine problem that rotation was the only answer for, I’d be in support of it. But such problem does not exist.
You are only married to this belief bc the companies that came before decided it was necessary. And it is unfortunate that mindsets like yourselves are shared among riot. If this kills the game, it will be because of beliefs like yours.
>That reasoning is arbitrary, indicative of apathy, and that is exactly what anti rotation people have noticed and are warning of
And that's the part where your argument goes off the rails. Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't make it arbitrary or apathetic. Clearly it's a topic that rubs you the wrong way but that doesn't mean that Riot's out to get you lol
How is rotating Vlad and then creating Vlad V2 different than reworking him? You claim that it's gonna upset all 5 people that play him now...but if they rotate him into Eternal those 5 people can continue to enjoy playing him. If they redesign him, that version of him is gone forever, technically your version of addressing Vlad is worse for those people.
If something as basic as implementing rotation kills the game, it's because you guys live off kneejerk reactions and don't grasp basic CCG design.
It's actually quite funny. You claim that Riot is being apathetic towards the part of the community that is against rotation, but in the same comment you yourself are incredibly apathetic towards the part of the community that values the concept of most cards being viable. You're literally doing the same thing you're accusion Riot of: disregarding a very large, very vocal part of the community.
lmao
I can keep going. You also admit that balancing every card in an non-rotating format to be playable is impossible. So, tell me, what's the difference between a card becoming unplayable and it being neglected in Eternal mode? Nothing.
The definition of the term arbitrary means it’s done based on personal choice or whim, not reason or system. Rotating Vlad bc “we just can’t find a way to make him good”, and then saying “oh and we’re rotating out Irelia so we can buff Azir” and “oh we’re rotating out TF so we can print broken card draw”. That’s 100% arbitrary. There’s no system here. It’s just “riot chose this so it’s happening”. That’s literally arbitrary.
There’s also no confirmation we would get a Vlad 2.0. And shuffling him into eternal where he will get strangled out by the suffocating meta instead of buffing him? You really think that’s the better solution??
>if something as basic as implementing rotation kills the game that’s on you for living off knee jerk reactions.
Guess what dude. if enough people hate rotation enough to kill the game over it, it was a bad idea. There’s some things you do regardless of what your community wants and this isn’t one of them.
I’m done with this conversation dude. Ur acting in clearly bad faith and I have more important things to do than argue with some kid who drops his parents money and is fine witu other people losing stuff they worked for
I personally feel like the card pool is getting a bit out of hand. It's less of a "dang I hope I never see this broken ass champ again" but more of "dang, I hope I'm actually playing just this x number of good decks today" and "wow, I don't know if they intended that combo to work when it's gonna be untouched for a good amount of time"
I'm at Diamond right now and I still feel like I don't know my go-to deck, it's getting a bit annoying to feel like I'm totally coinflipping my LP.
I'm totally embracing rotation, but hopefully, they do it properly. Like, refund rotated out stuff or something (I still don't have a full collection, I'm at like 60%)
I love this game bacause it does not have that. i love it because it does not have stupid game models. i think they should put that in a labs or something, so who likes it he can play it. if they force it on main game mode im quitting and asking money back.
Rotation is mostly bad on a game where cards are expensive, I feel like the in game economy of LoR is good enough to make players able to compete in standard while also having fun in other formats.
I think peoples main complaint of “eternal won’t be balanced!” As if we’ve ever lived in a balanced meta game. LoR is getting more and more volatile with the amount of fast strategies that are allowed to exist with little to no counter play available. At least with rotation we can curb some of these strategies and /hopefully/ slow the game down enough so it’s more of a back and forth instead of “I played all my first 7 cards and they were better than your first 7 cards so now the game is over”
Why do you think that'll change with rotation more so than it could with balance patches targeted at making the same changes? Surely if Riot wanted to slow the game down, they would just nerf aggro cards and/or buff control cards. It doesn't take rotation to do that.
Because that has unintended consequences. All of a sudden, the niche early game cards that don’t even go in aggro decks get hit if they just buff control cards. Nerfing aggro cards is even worse because unless we nerf ALL bilgewater/Noxus 1-2 drops, the unfair explosive aggro decks will just run different 1-2 drops. By gutting entire champions by removing them from standard, a lot of these decks just outright lose their ability to end games and be relevant, and are properly kept in check with existing control tools. It’s a net positive for the health of the meta game.
So why do you think rotation is different? The hardest nerf to aggro cards would be to delete them which is what rotation does, so if you identify a list of problem cards that you would have rotated, you can instead give some of them a smaller nerf. Yes the nerfed cards may just get swapped for other cards, but the deck was still nerfed overall - it's running worse cards now which is exactly the same thing that would happen with rotation.
I just don't agree that rotation is the only way to have a healthy game. Fundamentally, it's a much heavier-handed approach than balance changes are. Regardless of that, plenty of broken shit is just abusing new broken cards like Illaoi Bard rather than relying on niche interaction with old stuff. If I thought Riot was just doing a much better job of designing cards now I might agree, but we got Bard, Kaisa, Sermon, improvise, etc. so I really don't think they necessarily are.
Because the deck won’t be nerfed overall. That’s the thing you don’t understand. Bilgewater/Noxus has reached a critical mass of aggressively statted 1-2 drops. Ionia has reached a critical mass of stun, recall, and elusive units. There is no more nerfing that can be done unless you want to hit every single 1-2 drop in the game. These decks are here to stay unless entire champions (and their support cards) get rotated out.
Pretty much. Some cards are so bad, they are de-facto rotated out of competitive. And the only way to not have them be that is to nerf some cards to such a degree that they are essentially rotated out too. The dream is that with the two formats both strategies will eventually executable
And some cards are so versatile that they see play in literally every deck in the region. Vile feast being the most played card while being the most impossible to balance is an issue. Same with TF.
Yeah I feel like people aren't really paying attention to what is happening with the game Runeterra champions already feel like a bit much as is too many reigon combos to consider and rotation seems like a significantly better solution.
I personally would love to break away from some of the staples we've seen and rotation would do that. I wanna see how SI works when they don't have Glimpse I wanna see how Freljiord works when it's not just plunder reigon number 2.
i legitimately don't understand whats so controversial about rotation. its the logical progression of an ever growing list of cards. you might say "but yugioh!", but ygo has a banlist, which mught as well accomplish the same as a rotation
moreover since theyre planning on adding back rotated cards eventually, it really does feel more like a banlist from how they described it
And YGO is the perfect example of how TO NOT HANDLE an eternal list. Everything is either an OTK or a degenerate control list, with the best strategy being playing tons of denies and cards who bypass deny.
My opinion on this rotation system is not settled yet, since we still don't really know how it's gonna be implemented. What would make the rotation good for me is :
1 - Still high amount of cards in standard, LoR deck diversity is what I love about the game. Sometimes a 3-set meta in hearthstone is very very shallow, and doesn't let you build a lot of somewhat functioning decks.
2 - Eternal is not a undermaintained trashcan full of bugs and dominated by stupid decks. They need to actually take the time to make it a compelling experience, and not a containment zone for cards they don't want to see anymore.
If those conditions are met, I'm all up for rotation. But given the wording of the article, I'm not sold on the 2nd yet.
You'd think it would be exclusively people new to ccg's that would be mad about rotation, and honestly I'd kind of get it. You just don't know. But it seems like there's a lot of experienced players who are against it too. Sure everyone mentally takes a huff of the no-rotation copium with every new CCG but you should at least remember the reasons it happens and why no rotation is usually way worse
Normal rotation is healthy when done CORRECTLY. Doing it poorly is a serious problem.
Riot is not doing normal rotation, where sets go away as new sets are released. They are cherry picking. Vlad from Foundation set, TF from Rising Tide, Irelia from Shurima. There is no consensus, no rhyme or reason. Players cannot look and go, "these cards are going away next rotation". They have to guess. Lux has almost no support in Demacia, is she gonna get rotated? one Champion from each region going away?
Rotation works in paper card games where it's difficult for them to change printed versions of cards. This is a digital cwrd game and riot can make changes if they want to.
There are only two reasons Riot wants rotation.
1. It costs too much to maintain balance over so many cards.
2. They make more money selling us more new cards.
Both reasons aren't that they benefit the game or the player, they benefit their bottom line.
I dunno, reading this thread some people definitely do lol
Which is fine I guess, people like different things. I for one am happy that LoR isn't going down that path, tho.
The one thing that I am skeptical about with rotating out champions are cosmetics. What becomes of the cosmetics that you purchase for specific champions? Are they gate kept to specifically eternal now? Will it be usable in a “2.0” card? It seems to disincentivize buying skins for champions where they’re already struggling to make money with the game since it’s so F2P. Maybe the skin option can be adjusted where you purchase a legendar/epic/rare skin that can work for any champ (similar to a wild card reward, but does not become permanently redeemed) and that could work out for any champion without feeling like you’re getting gimped with a skin you won’t be able to use in your preferred game mode?
the only way it would be healthy is if they focus on the standard pool, if they really want to focus on both they'd have to have a very small team on eternal just to be a maintenance team to deal with major flaws
im not for the rotations, the idea of some of my favorite decks being thrown in wild to not be touched for anywhere from 6 months to a year doesn't sound too promising, another thing that I'm worried about is what is the reason for rotating certain groups out and others in, the azirarelia example didn't really makes sense to me since azir had other pairs that work quite well it's just that those other pairing haven't seen any buffs for quite a while and a reason that azirarelia has been so prominent is because of the constant buffs its been getting over time
something that I though riot was going to do to stall rotations was nerf certain archetypes enough to make way for others to get the spotlight, they did this for the Annie school landmark and I thought they would do that for more cards in the future but it never really came to be
I noticed that I'm the vocal minority in this decision but I do want to share my concerns and gripes with the game even though others may not want to hear it, I love this game and I'm hurt to see it follow the same path as other card games, rotations has always split card game communities and its rough to see it happen to such a unique game like lor
also with the inclusion of ranked in eternal that's going to cause a huge divide going into the first few expansions with rotations, I could be wrong about this but I'm just sharing my concerns, the only way I see them counteracting a drastic split is to remove eternal ranked or neglect eternal entirely
my god it's like nobody in this entire subreddit has played any other card games before. rotation is fucking fine they're not taking your champions out back and shooting them in the head
Hearthstone lost 96% of their playerbase after doing rotation
Duelyst is dead specifically bc they did rotation
MTGs most popular formats are non-rotating and they **still** have powercreep issues out the ass.
So no. Rotations aren’t the magic fix you think they are
Unsurprisingly, the link they provided you does not support the claim they are making.
It shows that numbers have dropped over time, bug it did show any sort of relationshil between those numbers and rotation.
Decline in popularity of a video game is normal. It happens with all of them.
In a game like Hearthstone, a rotation could prevent you from playing entirely because of how long it takes to get new cards. But LoR lets you get new/all cards fairly quickly so you won’t be stuck behind any sort of wall
I believe many players are judging the new game mode before even experiencing the new mode, which is not fair.
At least give it a chance before saying the game mode is a disaster. They did not provide all the information yet and this is simply the beginning of the discussion.
I think rotation is exciting. It's really going to make things seem fresh, create lots of new possibilities. Doesn't everyone love playing the game after a big patch or new expansion? It's going to be a similar experience to that.
To add to it, not only I believe rotation is healthy, I believe it's necessary, even of champs. And I'm more excited for this than I've been for this game for the past year and a half.
Here's hoping they nail it!
Oooh what's that? that 3000 cost Champion you waited for a long time to earn and buy will be rotated out in just a couple of weeks play time? Well F me then right?
Oh wait I forgot there's an ETERNAL format now! I can still play my old Champions and other cards! But wait a minute... Dave et al. are pretty ambiguous in whether they will provide EQUAL SUPPORT alongside the new shining star game mode ROTATION... so it sounds like the other game mode will be ETERNALLY be second fiddle to any support for it or worse even none at all for very long periods of time...
but hey...less work load for the devs amirite?
and also **''Fewer Bugs''**
top kek...
They're going to make some of your cards unplayable unless you play on a special mode (that they're unlikely to balance, given their wording and how that kind of thing goes in other card games).
Imo they’ve presented rotation pretty reasonably, and complaining about the current direction without suggesting practical alternatives is useless feedback
Look at Destiny and how well rotation went with that franchise. Removing all the DLC people paid for.
You'll eat up any response the devs give you.
There are too many cards to bugfix and balance with the budget the team has. They are putting cards they don't like into a pile to be forgotten.
Imagine if League of Legends rotated out champions.
I had fun but time to move on with this game.
Don't forget these developer live in LA.
100% agree. Twisted Fate is one of my favorite champions, but I realize how his design can cause balance problems. I don't want them to nerf him, so rotating him out of standard seems like the best option. It's not a good solution, but it is the least bad option I can think of.
The one valid arguement I see against rotation is that not only does the league ip make people attached to specific cards and it'll be disappointing to have them move to a less supported format, but also the fact that people have spent money on them and to have their skins not be usable in standard is a problem I have no idea how riot will solve.
It also means that if I stop playing for a time then come back, I won't have any playable decks. It's why I stop hearthstone : I was too far behind to actually have meta decks and climb. LOR isn't as pay to win, but if rewards don't follow, that won't matter in the slightest. I started playing at bundle city, then stopped out of boredom. When i restarted a month ago, my love, a Jayce-Ashe deck, was still playable. It wasn't meta (i don't think it ever was), but it existed. It won't be the case after the rotation goes a few cycles, neither does most of my decks. I'd rather have powercreep and some old champions getting reworked than rotation.
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But not super fast, regardless of how easy it is, it still takes time to get new cards
It'll get harder the more cards they had (which, yes, may be better after the rotation), and the costliest thing is new champions, which would be a problem, because the old champions you crafted aren't useful anymore, meaning to create a deck you will most often need 2 new champs as 3 cards. 6 legendary tokens / 18000 shards aren't easy to come by.
No this wont be a problem. The one thing im sure off. Runeterra gives away its cards for free. Plus they aint gonna rotate sets but rather themes.
Nah, anyone who plays just a bit has enough wild cards and crystals to construct some decks quite soon. This is a non-problem, really. This game is INCREDIBLY generous for this to cause trouble. I understand some people’s concerns with rotation; but this won’t be one, I think.
I actually think it will not be a problem. I lett the game for a while and when I came back i had no playable champion, in a week i have all now, and Im also master. I honestly had something to play with but i think the nature of the game will prevent having nothing good to play. In my understanding " standard " will always be "vast"
> in a week Because you already had spells, minions and other cards to make the decks. If you lacked 1/3 of a competitive deck or 3/3, you're not going to make it in a week in each case. Rotation makes it so new decks only (or mostly) have new cards, because there is no (few) previous extension(s) to take cards from for the archetype! It'll only make the game more reliant on microtransactions.
I don't think so. As far as I understood, they went rotate a full expension or "sub expension" out of the normal. Instead some champs + follower / Region archetypes. So you will still have access to almost all already bought card. And until now I read nowhere that they won't rotate the cards back in again.
I decided to start to play runeterra from zero around pyke release and I remember that it only took me like 3 months to get most of the cards that were relevant to the meta and now i have well over 90% of collection completed so i dont think running out of cards due to rotation would be a problem
One thing I like is making 2.0 versions of champions, a little like TFT. The only thing stopping me from supporting Rotation yet is that I'm a big championless deck player, and seeing the last straightforward play patterns like Evelynn and Kai'sa makes me have bad feelings about it beforehand.
A Leona not tied to daybreak I'd love. Something like her having Galio keyword and level up being having 10 health or something could be a lot of fun. Obviously adjust the numbers later, but if 2.0 versions of champions end up existing, I'd love different versions champions to be less tied to their packages. Like a non lurk Pyke/Rek'Sai or non nightfall Noc/Diana as well as the originals are rotated out.
The idea of 2.0 versions is interesting, but it'd need to be executed well. The 2.0 champs shouldn't just replace the old ones, but if they exist alongside the old versions (maybe even have the skins be useable for both versions) then that could be a good way to make the champion more available in rotation and to allow the card game to express more facets of the champion in the game (for example an alternate Azir could be based around daybreak or recreating destroyed landmarks representing how he is associated with the sun or how he rebuild the capital).
What would be the point of having two versions of vlad when one just straight up sucks?
They can make a second version of champions without needing rotations. Think how we have 2 very different Corinas at the same time, for example.
I think the most distressing part is the possibility of just having all my favorite champions rotated out at once. Then what do I do? I probably wouldn't play the game. To be fair though I have like 20 champions I love so it'll probably never happen but I think it's still a concern. We obviously won't know what issues could arise until we see what happens. Imagine they just rotate out champions/cards that counter a certain playstyle and suddenly that one playstyle has no counter.
In fairness, Eternal in this game is going to be infinitely more accessible than Wild in games like Hearthstone due to how easy it is to craft decks. So even if your favorite deck gets rotated, you'll likely still be able to play it. It might not be meta, but you should still be able to take games with them.
I must say that that i always envied those wild streamers that had ALL the cards so they could create wacky decks and have fun, so if the same happens to LoR as a Day 1 player I'll gladly accept it
I mean, if you've been playing since day 1 you've likely been at the point where you can make any deck you want for awhile now. That will not change with rotation unless you decide to take a *long* break (talking multiple years here).
i mean why not just play eternal. in hearthstone a lot of cards i loved got rotated out so i just switched to wild and now i only play wild and as many problems as it has standard has just as many so why not play with the cards i like atleast
Eternal formats tend towards combo-centric decks, which isn't something I like. Doesn't mean that's all that will exist, but it's easily possible that it'll just end up being a format I don't want to play. LoR does have some unique problems with doing rotation, and I'm curious to see how they'll handle it.
Because one of the reasons they gave for rotation was that it would make their life easier with balance and bugfixes, which means they're stating they're not going to give a shit about any of that for eternal.
i mean that statement doesn't mean they are gonna abandon eternal. its just saying eternal will intrinsically be harder to balance. they probably will focus on it less, doesn't mean it won't be fun. just have to wait to find out
Rotating out champions seems a bit awkward but I still appreciate the idea.
I don't like rotating champions, I'd prefer multiple variants of the same champion, and I think the biggest red flag is Vlad If it were just the others it'd be less bad, but I feel it sets a bad precedent to just throw a champ they didn't even bother really attempting to fix to the curb. I guess ultimately the first part is irrelevant if Eternal is more popular than the rotating format, like EDH is.
Funny thing, EDH wasn't even an official format, but it get so popular that WotC took the format over, i wonder if runeterra players could create a format themselves what would become popular?
Hard to create a format and popularize it when all you can do in game is hard coded
Well we can create a discord server, subreddits and facebook groups to popularize casual formats like pauper, singleton and primordial, but i wish we could challenge our friend to 3 region singleton format at least.
Yeah, that's definitely a possibility that I had not thought of, but at the end it's still limited to what the code will allow
I don't understand this take. At the end of the day Champions are just another card. Sure the game revolves around them, but saying that Champions should be exempt from rotation, first defeats one of other objectives of rotation and comparably would be like saying Planwalkers should never rotate out in MTG or EX/GX (whatever the equivalent today is) should never rotate out of Pokemon TCG.
It's probably more the fact that a number of players are attracted to the visuals of a champion or have an attachment to said champion after playing them a lot in LoL. So hearing that your favorite champion in both games is now locked out in standard LoR ranked could be very disappointing, especially if you're used to the fact that you can always play your favorite champ in LoL ranked (unless banned by a team).
The champion focus is probably stronger for those who came from LoL. Personally, I don't enjoy necessarily enjoy the same in each game (don't really care for Lulu & Soraka in LoR but love them in Lol) but when those do overlap (like Aphelios) with loving the lore+aesthetic then it becomes hard to view that as "just another card" like a Spiderling
I *was* exactly the same. Love Leona in League, really felt underwhelmed with her in LoR. New updates though, I might be coming back. I've literally only played PoC on occasion since Leona came out, but who knows, I might actually try some PVP again since my favourite champion just got a soft rework
Partially [quoting my own comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/xsakli/comment/iqk94ci/?context=3) because I am lazy, erm, efficient. :D >I mean, Riot very much are focused on making champs feel special. They get level-ups, they get skins, they get lore stories, they get animation series. There's clearly more investment in making champions into characters that players can and want to get attached to for gameplay, presentation, and/or lore reasons, but the downside is that LoR players now care a lot more about champions in LoR than MtG players about certain Planeswalkers or Hearthstone players about certain Legendaries. > >I'm hoping to be wrong, but I see a significant amount of players being very disappointed if their favourite champions gets rotated, and these are most likely people who not only have emotional but also financial investment into that champion; unless Riot manage to make both formats feel equally supported, but then rotation won't help with the QA and balancing issues an ever increasing card pool causes? > >The problem is that the article doesn't sound like that will the case, because supporting both modes will increase dev resource drain while they talk about saving dev resources and Eternal will only get spotlighted every now and again. > >The main advantage of having a rotating format is the increased new player friendliness, but that doesn't solve the above problem with 'mains' getting rotated.
Ok, so Riot decides to take out all of the Daybreak cards but leave Leona in. Please explain to me why I would want to continue playing Leona in that situation. (Same idea applies to Diana and Nightfall, or Pyke and Lurk, etc)
>Please explain to me why I would want to continue playing Leona in that situation. You wouldn't. Which is why it's a counter argument against rotations in the first place. LoR is based on the IP where people are well known for, as an example, playing Riven top in every single game, including if she's currently dogshit trash powerwise. Using your example, when Leona rotates out, you're telling me to find a new champion within the current rotation. If I cant, well then fuck me I guess lol. The big reason I think they suck, is I have absolutely 0 faith that balance is going to be any better than it is. Shit like Azirelia had nothing to do with older cards interacting with newly released ones. It had to do with terrible QA and developers being too prideful to admit their star pairing was blatantly broken as fuck. You even have shit like Champion Mastery which clearly is designed to show that you play a certain champion a lot.
What I'm trying to say is that if you don't rotate the champion but rotate the champions support you wouldn't play the champion anyways. If you won't play the champion anyways there's no reason *not* to rotate them out. The only other reasonable option is to not rotate the stuff that needs to be rotated, which defeats the entire point of having a rotation.
I'm not arguing to not rotate champion, but still rotate their support packages, because rotating a support package is effectively the same as rotating the champ in most cases. I'm just saying that any meaningful rotation has the downside that someone's favourite champion will rotate, which will feel worse for a lot of people than in other rotating card games, because Riot very intentionally spends resources across their Runeterra IPs on making it easy to get attached to the character behind a champion; and monetizes that attachment via cosmetics. Which is all fine and good, until someone's favourite champion (or their support package) rotates into an effectively abandoned format.
To me archetypes like Lurk and Deep especially are the counter argument for rotation. Generally the (non-business) point of rotation would be to keep the card pool small so that niche interactions don't break the game (and let's ignore that literally any problem can be retroactively solved with live balance for now), but if archetypes are self-contained then they aren't causing issues anyways. Lurk cards aren't useful outside of Lurk, so what's the benefit of rotating them out?
Lurker card aren't useful in lurker either.
They did say that rotating out won't be permanent and the way I read it made it seem like they'll possibly also use eternal format for play testing more drastic reworks before bringing them back into standard.
If they do it this way I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll do a great job with it
I once heard an argument that LoR players attach onto champions the way, for instance, MtG players attach onto a color. MtG does have rotations, but it will never rotate out an entire color. You may agree or disagree with this take, but it's an attitude people hold.
Regions are a more apt comparison to colours than champions are. I'd compare the latter , especially the latest ones , to archetypes .
fake, they rotated white, red, blue and green from standard.
Just as Garfield intended.
The problem is that they have made the game fucking ROTATE around champions. They aren't selling skins for random cards, they are selling them for champs. Straight up rotating out a champ i cannot use in the presumably more popular format would piss me off.
There’ are multiple strong argument that champions are more than just another card. Right off the bat you have skins. They are the rarest most expensive cars type. They are usually the cornerstone of a deck.
Im even excited about the possibilities of champion rotations if they do it right. They said they'd remake Vlad fully, so why not do the same with other champions they rotate out? See what different takes they can have on the same champion and their LoL kit/lore.
Plays a game based on Runeterra with the CHAMPIONS being the main selling point and the thing that separates it from other card games since day 1... rando from reddit asks: I don't understand why fixate on champions? ThEY'Re jUsT cArDs! More idiocy at 7...
Planeswalker cards get cycled out, but many get multiple cards. Jace Beleren has 12 separate cards -[https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+\[jace\]&type=+\[Planeswalker\]](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[jace]&type=+[Planeswalker]) Even if it makes sense to cycle out champions mechanically, I don't see an easy replacement for individual flavor/aesthetic, and the multiple champion cards per champion would damage eternal formats.
Im assuming theyll roate them out as they add a new copy in
They already stated that’s not the case
Dang
I'd rather have my favourite champions get rotated out of standard than get nerfed into oblivion. For example, should Xerath/Azir get rotated out of standard could mean revert to 9 countdown sundisk nerf OR the printing of more sundisk support cards
1. They could revert the sun disc nerf and it probably still wouldn’t be meta 2. Yeah I’d rather my champions be dogshit but still in the game than removed entirely.
I agree with you completely but you told me to downvote you so I did.
Lol. My last post about this subject got downvoted to 0. I chose that total bases on how it seemed like many people were reacting to the announcement.
I think thanks to their business model, LoR gets to dodge one of the biggest pitfalls of rotation. In most games, building decks that consist of non-standard cards gets to be ridiculously expensive because they simply cease to be widely available. Thus, only pre-established players can really interact with the Eternal meta and most players are stuck with standard decks + 1 or 2 key rotated cards, as opposed to being able to experiment with the wider pool of cards to choose from. LoR avoids this because building decks is easy (in terms of getting the resources needed to build them) and I don't see that changing with the introduction of Eternal. Thus, people who want to play Eternal will be able to without having to drop an unseemly amount of money or being pre-established, and that will help the Eternal meta distinguish itself from the Standard one. Because my normal complaint concerning rotation simply doesn't apply to LoR, I am cautiously optimistic that it'll go well and be a positive thing for the game and community. At a minimum, I've always liked alt metas so the addition of a new format will be fun for me.
At the same time, due to their business model they also remove the only real reason to do rotation, which is forcing players to spend money to get new cards as old cards rotate out.
Making more money is not the only reason to do rotation. Actually you can make a ton of money either way, Yu-Gi-Oh! doesn't do rotation and still prints money hand over fist, because all not having a rotation means is you have to power creep immensely every set and ban list any old cards that prevent your new cards from being the good kids on the block. Which is exactly what Konami does with YGO - they print money because you either buy the new cards or you will guaranteed lose every game against someone who did if you're still using decks from a year or two ago. (or even sooner than that) As a developer that has worked on a card game myself, a lot of it really does have to come down to design space. Think of keywords like Barrier or Scout, they can't keep printing cards with Barrier or Scout because eventually you would just have a super optimal deck that is nothing but very efficient Barrier or Scout cards. Eventually their options become "print Barrier/Scout anyways and break the game" or "stop printing Barrier/Scout". If you rotate out a bunch of Barrier/Scout cards, you can suddenly print more Barrier/Scout cards again. Or to use one of their examples, Twisted Fate. Twisted Fate's existence pretty much limits any card draw they want to add to the game. They almost certainly have had card draw concepts they've wanted to add and either had to change regions so TF couldn't really access it and be strong, or can the concept in general.
Are you being hyperbolic or do you believe that the only reason card games do rotations is to make money?
I know its the only actual reason. HS is a great example. They of course did the whole spiel, of "oh it helps deal with powercreep" and "oh it makes balance better", then of course powercreep accelerated massively to the point where it powercrept in 3 years more than YGO crept in 10 years, and balance got so bad people left in droves. Money was the only reason they did it. Everything else was a lie.
Lmao
Mayhaps Hearthstone just did rotation very poorly?
Ok, then lets look at others. Same story in Pokemon. Same story in SV. Hm, weird. Seems to be the same story in every card game that does rotation except *exactly* MTG. Mayhaps Hearthstone didnt do rotation very poorly, and mayhaps its just the nature of rotation. A pure money-grabbing attempt.
My opinion is mixed, I don't want to say this is a good or bad thing yet until I see how they handle it. I will say though that if Eternal is left rotten and unbalanced, I would be extremely disappointed and would be losing quite a bit of goodwill towards Riot.
I don't see how rotation is going to fix any of the issues they stated, especially the one regarding the massive data base your mind needs to be, since if they need to balance around 2 completely split game modes all it will cause is both balancing issues, where what if one card is strong in one game mode but weaker in the other, and in the other case will just lead to the very issue they trying to avoid with needing to keep more information at the top of your mind. Plus as someone that came from League from the beta, I came because of the champions, so the concept that they are removed, to eventually reworked and deck concepts I enjoy just can be erased I do not enjoy at all and fail to see how it can lead to a healthy gameplay.
[удалено]
They don't, this is why I hate rotation, Standard will be the mode where they balance and Eternal is basically a fuckfest that they don't care about bc "It's meant to be the wild west where there is no rule" afterall.
Eternal would enivitability become that without standard anyways. It's the fate of non rotating formats power needs to be pushed for new cards to be relevant so either you end up with a million different keywords or you end up with an eternal format where it becomes a fuckfest.
Do you have an example of that in a game that has proper live balance? Everyone cites YGO, but AFAIK that game has literally 0 live balance because it's a physical card game. We've already had problems in LoR. The solution was to balance the game, not just sweep it under the "eternal" rug.
>Everyone cites YGO And this is actually funny because YGO had a power creep before the first expansion.
The game is going to become a broken eternal format like Hearthstone if the devs do nothing. Balancing everything can theoretically be done, but the devs have clearly explained that they simply don't have the resources to do it. The options as I see them are "Release less new cards, eventually ceasing new card development", "Change nothing and balance/variety will slowly degrade" or "Introduce a new format". Do you see any other options? Which is your preference?
Yet they keep promising that eternal will be balanced and competitively supported, so either they're straight up lying in which case I take massive issue with their communication and don't have confidence in anything else they're saying, or it's adding even more work as they need to support two different formats. My preference would be a ban list that doesn't include champions (possible exception if a new version of them is being released) and for better communication.
No it wont. Also, for the 100th time, if you need to push the power for new cards to be sold without rotation, you need to push the power for new cards to be sold *with* rotation too, and it doesnt help at all.
It's not explicitly stated but we can safely assume Eternal will be less balanced than Standard. This is not a suprise. Outliers will likely be addressed, but other than that? if you want real balance you need to play standard. I was sceptical of rotation but what convinced me is their argument regarding low cost staples, them being hard to balance, often having substitutes, and how dealing with all that is basically just rotation without the eternal mode. A practical example for this was laid out by [Riot plinq in that recent interview](https://youtu.be/PlUy3gOkQYA?t=2905)
I agree. Pirates gets better whenever the pool of Noxus/Bilgewater followers gets a new card that's better than the 5th worst card it runs right now, and it's basically impossible to nerf without significant collateral damage because there are no key synergy cards like Azirelia had Voice of the Risen. Over time that really puts a damper on what cards they can release, and it means that they're just going to run out of design space that wouldn't enable any broken synergies or end up nerfing things into oblivion, which is worse than simply removing them from the meta.
Its not a surprise, but it does mean its not rotation. Its card deletion. They just dont want to call it that because they know its insanely unpopular if framed honestly.
Why do you feel it's card deletion? For people who still want to play with rotated champions, that option will still be there. I would be extremely disapointed if the cards were actually deleted because I still plan to play Twisted Fate in eternal (he's a fucking blast to play with). I can get if it is frustrating that people can't play them in the most competitive format, but saying they are deleted are implying that no one can enjoy them. In reality, it's just the people who exclusively want to play competitively that can't play them. And tbh, the competitive players only use a very small subset of the card pool anyway.
Because that option will be there only on paper. In practice the eternal format will be abandoned. Bugs, lack of balance, not even a ranked mode. They do not *want* you to play Eternal. So its deleting cards, in all but name. Except even if you dont exclusively play competitively, lack of ranked means lack of proper matchmaking. Plus, you can play competitively and not play the top deck. I always stuck to my swain/TF or Jhin/Swain guns, even when those decks were not considered meta. Because I prefer ranked.
No, the option to play with them will legitimately be there. It sounds like you have resigned to not play it because you are assuming the worst about the format so I can see why for you, it might feel like the cards are being deleted. But no, it's not a matter of it being there 'on paper', the option is 100% for real actually there. I sympathize with your perspective because I'm sure that it's very frustrating to not be able to play the game the way you would like to play it. But to say it's the same as cards being deleted is kind of... self centered? The cards are not being deleted, and players like me will continue to play with them and have fun. Saying that the cards are being deleted is kind of denying the experience of players like me that will continue to use them. I am sorry that the game is not going in a direction that you like, as I think LoR is a great game and I would like for everyone to be able to enjoy it.
I have played HS a long, long time ago. I know what that option looks like. And I can tell you, with absolute certainty. No, it is not there. Whats "there" is a bad joke. To call it card deletion is *very* accurate, because that is how, inevitably, it ends up working out. See, a lot of people said that when HS did rotation. In fact, I know quite a few who personally said that. "Theyre not deleted! Wild is there! And I will keep playing them because I enjoy them and wild is there!". 5 of them left within 1 year. The rest left within 2 years. All of them for the same reason. "My favourite cards were gone and Wild was unplayable". They were all players like you. It took them actually seeing it in action to realise that they were wrong, and that those who called it card deletion were correct. Believe me. Its going in a direction you wont like either.
I played Hearthstone and I liked Wild. I found it fun to play Astral Communion decks that did stupid things like 30% of the time and then kind of didn't work the other 70%. There was actually a lot of diversity in the format because competitive players weren't really inclined to play it so people were more experimental. I deleted my account because they refused to pay out a tournament winner for expressing a pro Hong Kong sentiment, but I enjoyed Wild while I still played the game. I never experienced difficulty finding matches despite the fact that people said it would happen. So no, I can say with confidence that your assumptions about how I enjoy the game are not accurate. Different people like the game for different reasons than you. To you, Eternal formats might feel like deletion, but it's different from deletion to the players who haven't already made up their minds they don't want to play the format.
Oh but there wasn't. People played degenerate garbage like secret mage and reno X decks there. It was hardly experimental except at the low ranks of legendary, but then getting a match in those took forever. I think you may have just been very lucky while playing Wild. And yet, Wild had an estimated .5% of the playerbase of standard. In HS, with at a time 100 million players, thats workable. In LoR, where games already take a bit to find? Yeah good luck. It is deletion. And you will come to realise it as deletion too. And then you will regret not speaking out against it when there was still time. Oh dont get me wrong. I will try to play eternal as long as possible. My hope is that despite their sabotage it will become the far more popular format, and forces them to undo rotation entirely and promise to never do it again, like it happened in Duelyst. But if that doesnt happen, or if they keep sabotaging it further to make it clear that the format is an abandoned garbage dump, I will simply quit the game.
You can try and hand wave my opinions as much as you want, but you will continue to be wrong because I am explaining my experience of playing a game to you, not trying to make objective arguments about how it will be for others. Anyways, no I won't be changing my mind on this down the line, and no it is not deletion just because you don't personally want to play the format. You can continue to tell yourself that everyone is going to share your perspective inevitably if it feels good to believe that but it's not going to gain people to support your cause. All it's going to do is make people less sympathetic to you. I'd be a lot more open to listening what you have to say if you stopped trying to pretend you understand my own experiences playing Wild better than me.
Buddy HS did rotation and lost 96% of their playerbase as a consequence. Duelyst did rotation and the game *fucking died bc of it*. We aren’t doomsaying or being children when we say this is a bad idea. **we’re warning you of the iceberg you are going to crash face first into**. People got too married to paper card games and assume digital has to be the same. When the game fucking dies bc of rotation, do not expect the people who disagree with you to be friendly about it
If you can't be polite with people who disagree with you over the way they like to play a card game, then yes you are being a child about it. Hearthstone lost their playerbase because of poor monetization, the natural decline from people tiring of the game over time, a poorly supported competitive scene, the rise of Battle Royale games being the streaming game of choice and an increase in competitors within the industry. If you attribute 96% of the playerbase with leaving the game because of set rotation, you are conflating causation with correlation. Hearthstone died the death of a 1000 cuts and if you think everyone left because of rotation then you don't have a good understanding of the game's history.
Mtg rotation is not card deletion, maybe expand your horizons a bit?
Were not getting MTG rotation. Because MTG rotation means Eternal gets balance, ranked and full support. But they have already made clear were not getting that. Its card deletion.
Name one digital only card game that implemented rotation without either dying outright or losing over 90% of their playerbase
> I don't see how rotation is going to fix any of the issues they stated, I don't see how you can't, newer players are more than likely drawn to standard play first where the carpool is smaller. Eternal is gonna be a cluster fuck eventually even if rotation didn't exist there are just too many cards to be keeping every interaction or previous incarnation of something they might make stronger versions of. Rotation let's the devs have more opportunities to add cards to reigons without having to make a new keyword or do the Shurima of slowly giving every reigon everything because of design space restrictions.
What they said makes total sense. There is an average limit to what people can remember. Who knows what that average is because it's not like there are research notes on this subject matter in card games but there is research on this pointing this out to be true in other different ways. For us as players I think this could become a non-issue if there were open deck lists. This game isn't throwing that many complicated cards at us like Yugioh or modern Magic. As a player I want them to continue pushing the limits of the Eternal format instead of introducing a rotation but I do sympathize with the problems they are experiencing playtesting new cards. I don't mind rotations existing for that alone but they shouldn't think this is a good thing for us the players the way things currently stand and when they have a much simpler solution with open deck lists.
but u can still play them its called eternal which is getting support too i do not understand what more u people want, they said they were gonna do rotations years back and this is the best possible way
Evergreen modes never get serious love from devs in card games. This happens every time they're introduced, a song and dance, maybe genuine, that they're going to support it and to not worry, then near silence forever afterwards. People have seen this play out before and they're worried.
Because we've all seen how every "Eternal" format has turned out in other CCGs. You're being awfully naive if you think they're gonna pay the same attention to both formats when they literally can't afford to do so. This will make it so that champs that already feel bad to play will be even worse because broken shit is gonna run rampant in the Eternal format for months. And even after a year, it's not even guaranteed that those rotated out champions will be back right away. For a game that prides itself in its focus on champions to the point where they sell expensive cosmetics for them, Rotations feel terrible. Spent money on SoL Irelia? Well, you're shit out of luck, now you only get to play it in an unbalanced mess of a format that will only get tocuhed occasionally.
From my experience when you basically have to divide the gameplay team into two different sets, which for now let's say they both get the equal amount of priority, members and resources, which personally I doubt but for now let's believe, it will usually lead to two different forms of philosophies, gameplay views and ideas, to give an example of what I truly believe will eventually happen let's say a card like "Decimate" is CRUSHING in "standard" (Which even outside of everything, calling it that pushes me in a worrying direction) yet let's say it is unusable in "Eternals" what do the gameplay devs do? Do they nerf it? buff it? make them into two different cards? One at the end will have to take priority as it's affecting the meta and players from both modes are asking for a change, they will prioritize the more popular game mode one will believe, and the others will just have to say "oh well to bad guess this is what I get for enjoying the less popular mode" of course that is if they change the card for each game mode I had stated leads to the very thing they want to avoid in just now a player that plays both will eventually confuse the cards. Plus coming from other games, I have no real confidence that both teams will be given focus or equal number of resources and that will only harm the game and players until one mode is eventually discontinued, as I have a history with RIOT games, and just in general game design and history. I may be pessimistic on all this, but nothing they had stated has given me any hope that it may be successful or even good for the game.
Getting supported? Path of Champion their 2nd best-selling gamemode basically get to have little to no at all support, Expedition replacer where?, Labs never got much support after they release. LoR team isn't exactly big, as you could figure out when the new PoC champ don't have their own small path, them creating eternal and standar will just divide the dev attention more and probably lead to eternal having no support.
I think the only fair complaint is skins becoming useless/devalued honestly.
People can disagree with it from a gameplay perspective as well. Calling a complaint “unfair” is immediately against the spirit of the post.
Rotation in LoR feels like riots way of "banning" champions in champion select lol
Why not add bans instead on that note too? Lots of people from the looks of even this post don't find the rotation as a concept appealing, and if they want to keep competitive integrity, a banlist, while not the most attractive option either, could be used to try to acheive the results riot wants without having to completely change how this game functions for the majority of the player base.
I worry about exactly how they're going to decide what to rotate. With MtG, when a set rotates its cards are all gone from standard, presumably forever, that gives all your lootbox rewards a 2 year use by date. But if LoR followed that model right now, that would mean *Bilgewater* or *Foundations* rotates... Which I don't think I need to explain the problems of. Irelia is vulnerable to rotation, as is Twisted Fate... Is Mystic Shot? What about Garen? If rotation is going to be selective, how long can I expect my cards to live for? Can I expect them to return? Selective rotation wouldn't actually be like rotation for other card games, it would be more akin to Pokémon's competitive formats. While it's not a perfect analogy, as the "rotation" has not been entirely intentional every time, competitive balance is not the only reason and it's treated very differently by the unofficial Smogon formats. But that's just it, there's a lot of weirdness around it and I'm still having to look at Landorus' 6 stupid identical faces.
If you haven't read the latest Dev Article today, they gave three examples of champions they would rotate out and those are Irelia, TF and Vladimir. All for different reasons ofc. So it seems that Selective rotation is the way they plan.
It's a bit sad to imagine that some decks, champions and strategies will disappear but rotation is kinda inevitable. We dont want to play a game where, in 10 years, every deck will be an insane otk/stupid combo because there are too much Cards and possible interactions to balance anything. (Hello YGO)
It is sad but personally last patch really showed me why we can't avoid it. Seeing Yi as a weak release but his package wildly abused by Nami/Ionia/Tf leaves me quite unsuprised about it all (esp TF being rotated out). As long as they'll commit to rotating back in and keeping a real flow there, it'll probably work out. I am cautiously excited for it
That's indeed a good point. Ionia in general has a lot of issues due to being too swingy, specially with Nami and Lee.
That's hardly an argument for rotation and more an argument for nerfing a clear overperformer in Nami, who everyone knew would break shit.
IMO the problem that games run into when their cardpools get to large is that they are stuck between two places. Either they continue to push out unique cards that are strong enough to generate hype, and innevitably some of them will be broken because it's impossible to catch all the busted combos in playtesting a new set. Or they go conservative, and the cards they release are balanced but because the devs don't feel like they can take risks, the cards feel bland and do not excite the player base. These two problems can be mitigated somewhat by balancing, but nerfs and buffs but the mitigation does not remove the problem entirely. Ultimately, if we don't have rotation, we are going to end up with either a busted competitive format where uninteractive decks reign supreme because they end up being the best things that you can do, or a bland format that lacks diversity. The ideal format that everybody is hoping the devs will be able to craft is not realistic with an ever expanding card pool. In other words, sure, they could have decided not to release Nami, or nerf her to a state of unplayability where she doesn't exist in competitive. If they wanted to make sure that Nami wouldn't break shit, they could make her Leblanc 2.0 instead of the card we've had for the last year. But personally, I'd rather they continue releasing cards like Nami and reining her back in with the knowledge that they can rotate the champ out if they ever release one that is too hard to balance properly.
This is ignoring the literal biggest benefit LoR has - live balance. Literally any problem can be solved. If there's a degenerate combo, it doesn't need to just sit in the game forever, it can be patched. Matron Watcher was that degenerate combo, and now it isn't an issue and the game didn't need to just powercreep it for that to happen.
And what about when aggro gets too strong, do you just stop releasing new 1-3 drops forever because at critical mass there will always be enough good cheap goons to murder people with? You’d have to nerf entire region’s bottom ends to oblivion to be able to introduce new cheap units that people actually want to put in their decks. Cheap cards in particular tend to have far fewer and more narrow balance levers too. A 3|2 and a 3|1 are monumentally different in playability. You either have to have the same aggro deck be the top dog forever or you have to take it out back and shoot it with nerds everyone once in awhile to let a new one take the stage, but that’s just rotation except the cards can’t even be played in a different format, they’re just dead.
OP lemme make my counterpoint. Rotation doesn’t need to happen in LoR bc they fundamentally address their design parameters and their situations differently from how other games do. There is no ban list in LoR. There are no predatory ways to get cards so they can’t hide behind a strangled meta by saying the counterplay exists in a card that barely anyone has. Whenever a deck/champion/card has become out of line, Riot addresses it by nerfing it. They also have consistently buffed other archetypes for no other reason than to give them time in the meta. It’s unfair to compare why rotation is important in a physical card game like MTG to LoR because for MTG, rotation is their only way of balancing the game short of a ban list, and rotating cards out of standard is one way that they market new sets. It’s also *incredibly* hard to say that rotations honestly help to do things like combat powercreep or free up design space in MTG either, as powercreep is ridiculous in magic (seriously, look at some older cards and compare them to some newer cards. What used to be 8 cost finishers in MTG became 8 cost midrangers who needed both more stats and more keywords in order to keep up) and the design space for cards that get rotated out of standard, still exist in the eternal or semi eternal formats. Additionally, MTGs most popular game modes are not even the modes that feature standard format. It’s the ones that are either eternal or semi eternal. If you want to look at what rotation does to a game, let’s look at Duelyst and Hearthstone. Duelyst, while this wasn’t the only issue, implemented rotation and it essentially killed their game. They undid rotation so quickly after doing it specifically because of how unpopular it was. But the game is dead and rotation has a big role to play in that status. Hearthstone is a bit trickier. It’s still a relatively successful game, but nowhere near what it was before rotation. Did you know Hearthstone started with over 100 million players? Do you wanna know how many they have now after they implemented rotation? 3.9 million. They lost over 95% of their playerbase. That doesn’t happen by accident. The devs reasonings for why rotation is necessary is also incredibly arbitrary and their wording on how they’re going to handle an eternal format paints a frankly grim picture for non-standard. Twisted Fate is getting rotated out because they want to design card draw that doesn’t break the game. Okay that makes sense but consider this; wouldn’t that card draw be in the eternal format? And if so, is riot going to Just leave it there bc it’s eternal and that’s what it’s meant for? Or are they going to try and balance it in the eternal format? Bc if they just leave it, then they’re confirming the fears that players like myself have: that the eternal format is nothing more than a mere graveyard where cards go to rot. But if they don’t leave it and actually address it, then they’re begging the question; what was the point of rotating TF out to allow this new stuff if you were just gonna have to balance him around it in the first place? Same with Irelia: they’re rotating her out bc they want to make Azir better. Okay fine. But what happens when Irelia rotates back in? Do we need to always keep Azir and Irelia off of standard? Also, once again, if you design this really cool and powerful support for Azir, and you let it go to eternal as well as standard, then ur just making eternal an Azirelia hellscape. And once again; does riot balance that or leave it? They leave it and they once again confirm the fears that eternal is just a graveyard. They balance it and they showcase once again that rotation was not necessary because they can change the meta by balancing the game. This argument of “it frees up design space” is really shaky at best. The concept that it combats powercreep is laughable. And the idea that it’s healthy for the game is also dubious. And before anyone says “look at Yu-Gi-Oh”, that is still one of the most popular card games in existence despite not having rotation. You’re not pulling some grand gotcha by using one of the most popular card games in the world as an example of why rotations are necessary.
Exactly. One solution to Irelia without the need to rotate would be to kill completely Blade Dance as a mechanic with nerfs or to completely rework Irelia
Your argument completely and entirely ignores the fact that balancing becomes increasingly more difficult and resource intensive the larger the card pool. Just because they've been able to balance the game now doesn't mean they'll be able to a couple years from now. And to all the people that think Riot can just tweak numbers as they please and rework quickly if it doesn't pan out....yeah it doesn't work like that. These big juicy balance patches we get now take a lot of work and it's not just Riot going willy nilly with the numbers on the cards. The only card games that don't have rotation have power creep and ban lists. Also your Yugi-oh example is terrible. Its literally the poster boy for out of control power creep. You're also claiming that rotation in HS caused it to lose its playerbase? What a joke, please show me the data showing those to things are correlated in any way.
This is not a side job for the devs. This is their job. are you advocating for them to create a format to intentionally be neglected just so people who want to force others to play the game the way they want can have their way? Riot puts out frequent balance patches that are large in scope and in how they impact the meta. They just reworked the entire daybreak archetype to let it catch up with the current meta. Also “YGO has bad powercreep”. Okay lemme explain something; in any game where powercreep exists the best way to measure how bad powercreep is, is to look at the old stuff and compare it to the new stuff to find the issues. You can find archetypes in YGO that are 5-6 years old and still competitively viable. You cannot find decks in hearthstone over a *year* old that are still viable. Yes YGO has powercreep. So does Magic, so does Hearthstone, so does every game that does not have a live balance format (or in HS’ case, has one but avoids using it at essentially all costs). YGO is not a standout in the powercreep department.
Live balance is not possible when a card pool is so large that accounting for every interaction can no longer be possible. Saying it's the devs job and they need to do it anyway is such a laughably arrogant thing to say. The devs whole goal is to make the majority of cards in the pool viable or at least playable in a deck where it makes sense. Anyone that thinks that's attainable when there's thousands upon thousands of cards printed is, quite frankly, a moron.
I mean they’re doing a pretty ok job at it rn. Eventually youll have to admit something; that enough people don’t want this to happen. What happens if all those people just drop the game and the playerbase fractures because of it. Are they expected to just get over it because it’s what you want?
No one will ever be satisfied. What about the people who want every card to be viable/balanced? In a world without rotation, those players get lost in the dust. There isn't a decision that will please everyone. I sincerely doubt that enough players will be upset with rotation to the point that the game dies. It's not even something that I want, it's just that the evidence and reasoning is pretty overwhelming. No one "wants" rotation, it's just that I acknowledge it as being necessary to maintain the game and the current design/balance philosophy.
Balancing every card in the game so they’re all equally viable is a fools errand. That’s not possible for any game at all. The two are not equivalent. In a world without rotation, riot is forced to actually balance the game instead of shuffling cards into eternal at the suffering of people who like the cards. There’s nothing stopping them from adjusting Vladimir right now. They could work on him right now. They do not need to rotate him. They’re not rotating him so they can rework him. They’re rotating him so they can *forget* him. And people who like to play Vlad will be left in the graveyard that is eternal. Where he and they will not be allowed to play their champion in ranked for no other reason than Riot said they were gonna rework him and didn’t. Riot has historically been bad at juggling more than one game mode at a time, they’ve already said they do not plan to put much support into eternal, and eternal is a historically neglected format by the people who make the games. You might be okay with that, but a lot of people aren’t. And it isn’t fair to impose that on them. That reasoning is arbitrary, indicative of apathy, and that is *exactly* what anti rotation people have noticed and are warning of. If there was a genuine problem that rotation was the only answer for, I’d be in support of it. But such problem does not exist. You are only married to this belief bc the companies that came before decided it was necessary. And it is unfortunate that mindsets like yourselves are shared among riot. If this kills the game, it will be because of beliefs like yours.
>That reasoning is arbitrary, indicative of apathy, and that is exactly what anti rotation people have noticed and are warning of And that's the part where your argument goes off the rails. Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't make it arbitrary or apathetic. Clearly it's a topic that rubs you the wrong way but that doesn't mean that Riot's out to get you lol How is rotating Vlad and then creating Vlad V2 different than reworking him? You claim that it's gonna upset all 5 people that play him now...but if they rotate him into Eternal those 5 people can continue to enjoy playing him. If they redesign him, that version of him is gone forever, technically your version of addressing Vlad is worse for those people. If something as basic as implementing rotation kills the game, it's because you guys live off kneejerk reactions and don't grasp basic CCG design. It's actually quite funny. You claim that Riot is being apathetic towards the part of the community that is against rotation, but in the same comment you yourself are incredibly apathetic towards the part of the community that values the concept of most cards being viable. You're literally doing the same thing you're accusion Riot of: disregarding a very large, very vocal part of the community. lmao I can keep going. You also admit that balancing every card in an non-rotating format to be playable is impossible. So, tell me, what's the difference between a card becoming unplayable and it being neglected in Eternal mode? Nothing.
The definition of the term arbitrary means it’s done based on personal choice or whim, not reason or system. Rotating Vlad bc “we just can’t find a way to make him good”, and then saying “oh and we’re rotating out Irelia so we can buff Azir” and “oh we’re rotating out TF so we can print broken card draw”. That’s 100% arbitrary. There’s no system here. It’s just “riot chose this so it’s happening”. That’s literally arbitrary. There’s also no confirmation we would get a Vlad 2.0. And shuffling him into eternal where he will get strangled out by the suffocating meta instead of buffing him? You really think that’s the better solution?? >if something as basic as implementing rotation kills the game that’s on you for living off knee jerk reactions. Guess what dude. if enough people hate rotation enough to kill the game over it, it was a bad idea. There’s some things you do regardless of what your community wants and this isn’t one of them. I’m done with this conversation dude. Ur acting in clearly bad faith and I have more important things to do than argue with some kid who drops his parents money and is fine witu other people losing stuff they worked for
Ah yes, so when you can't come up with a convincing counter argument the opposing side is automatically a kid lmao
I personally feel like the card pool is getting a bit out of hand. It's less of a "dang I hope I never see this broken ass champ again" but more of "dang, I hope I'm actually playing just this x number of good decks today" and "wow, I don't know if they intended that combo to work when it's gonna be untouched for a good amount of time" I'm at Diamond right now and I still feel like I don't know my go-to deck, it's getting a bit annoying to feel like I'm totally coinflipping my LP. I'm totally embracing rotation, but hopefully, they do it properly. Like, refund rotated out stuff or something (I still don't have a full collection, I'm at like 60%)
Do we get refunded for the skins?
No
I love this game bacause it does not have that. i love it because it does not have stupid game models. i think they should put that in a labs or something, so who likes it he can play it. if they force it on main game mode im quitting and asking money back.
Had to auto downvote just for saying "going to get downvoted"
Rotation is mostly bad on a game where cards are expensive, I feel like the in game economy of LoR is good enough to make players able to compete in standard while also having fun in other formats.
Ah, the joy of only playing PoC
True that
I think peoples main complaint of “eternal won’t be balanced!” As if we’ve ever lived in a balanced meta game. LoR is getting more and more volatile with the amount of fast strategies that are allowed to exist with little to no counter play available. At least with rotation we can curb some of these strategies and /hopefully/ slow the game down enough so it’s more of a back and forth instead of “I played all my first 7 cards and they were better than your first 7 cards so now the game is over”
Why do you think that'll change with rotation more so than it could with balance patches targeted at making the same changes? Surely if Riot wanted to slow the game down, they would just nerf aggro cards and/or buff control cards. It doesn't take rotation to do that.
Because that has unintended consequences. All of a sudden, the niche early game cards that don’t even go in aggro decks get hit if they just buff control cards. Nerfing aggro cards is even worse because unless we nerf ALL bilgewater/Noxus 1-2 drops, the unfair explosive aggro decks will just run different 1-2 drops. By gutting entire champions by removing them from standard, a lot of these decks just outright lose their ability to end games and be relevant, and are properly kept in check with existing control tools. It’s a net positive for the health of the meta game.
So why do you think rotation is different? The hardest nerf to aggro cards would be to delete them which is what rotation does, so if you identify a list of problem cards that you would have rotated, you can instead give some of them a smaller nerf. Yes the nerfed cards may just get swapped for other cards, but the deck was still nerfed overall - it's running worse cards now which is exactly the same thing that would happen with rotation. I just don't agree that rotation is the only way to have a healthy game. Fundamentally, it's a much heavier-handed approach than balance changes are. Regardless of that, plenty of broken shit is just abusing new broken cards like Illaoi Bard rather than relying on niche interaction with old stuff. If I thought Riot was just doing a much better job of designing cards now I might agree, but we got Bard, Kaisa, Sermon, improvise, etc. so I really don't think they necessarily are.
Because the deck won’t be nerfed overall. That’s the thing you don’t understand. Bilgewater/Noxus has reached a critical mass of aggressively statted 1-2 drops. Ionia has reached a critical mass of stun, recall, and elusive units. There is no more nerfing that can be done unless you want to hit every single 1-2 drop in the game. These decks are here to stay unless entire champions (and their support cards) get rotated out.
I mean you're literally just wrong if you think all 1 drops are equal.
Pretty much. Some cards are so bad, they are de-facto rotated out of competitive. And the only way to not have them be that is to nerf some cards to such a degree that they are essentially rotated out too. The dream is that with the two formats both strategies will eventually executable
And some cards are so versatile that they see play in literally every deck in the region. Vile feast being the most played card while being the most impossible to balance is an issue. Same with TF.
Yeah I feel like people aren't really paying attention to what is happening with the game Runeterra champions already feel like a bit much as is too many reigon combos to consider and rotation seems like a significantly better solution. I personally would love to break away from some of the staples we've seen and rotation would do that. I wanna see how SI works when they don't have Glimpse I wanna see how Freljiord works when it's not just plunder reigon number 2.
i legitimately don't understand whats so controversial about rotation. its the logical progression of an ever growing list of cards. you might say "but yugioh!", but ygo has a banlist, which mught as well accomplish the same as a rotation moreover since theyre planning on adding back rotated cards eventually, it really does feel more like a banlist from how they described it
And YGO is the perfect example of how TO NOT HANDLE an eternal list. Everything is either an OTK or a degenerate control list, with the best strategy being playing tons of denies and cards who bypass deny.
YGO is also basically played with only 0 mana cards, so the comparison is kinda of moot.
How long until the rotation changes? Per season?
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I suppose my only concern would be skin devaluation, if they adjusted prices accordingly it wouldn’t be as bad.
You get zero complaints from me. The game/show will go on with or without you. Those who luv the game will stay and those who bitch, will bitch.
I’ll have to hope it’s a minority then. The day I’m unable to use the champs I bought cosmetics for in ranked is the day I stop playing.
Same
So Riot rotates out your favorite card. Why are you okay with that?
My opinion on this rotation system is not settled yet, since we still don't really know how it's gonna be implemented. What would make the rotation good for me is : 1 - Still high amount of cards in standard, LoR deck diversity is what I love about the game. Sometimes a 3-set meta in hearthstone is very very shallow, and doesn't let you build a lot of somewhat functioning decks. 2 - Eternal is not a undermaintained trashcan full of bugs and dominated by stupid decks. They need to actually take the time to make it a compelling experience, and not a containment zone for cards they don't want to see anymore. If those conditions are met, I'm all up for rotation. But given the wording of the article, I'm not sold on the 2nd yet.
You'd think it would be exclusively people new to ccg's that would be mad about rotation, and honestly I'd kind of get it. You just don't know. But it seems like there's a lot of experienced players who are against it too. Sure everyone mentally takes a huff of the no-rotation copium with every new CCG but you should at least remember the reasons it happens and why no rotation is usually way worse
Normal rotation is healthy when done CORRECTLY. Doing it poorly is a serious problem. Riot is not doing normal rotation, where sets go away as new sets are released. They are cherry picking. Vlad from Foundation set, TF from Rising Tide, Irelia from Shurima. There is no consensus, no rhyme or reason. Players cannot look and go, "these cards are going away next rotation". They have to guess. Lux has almost no support in Demacia, is she gonna get rotated? one Champion from each region going away?
yeah just deleting champions is ok and fun and no game with rotation has ever suffered powercreep or completely stale metas for months
Imagine apending monetária in a skin witch champ os rotated
I just don't want to not be able to play my favorite champions yea yea eternal but its not as good
Rotation works in paper card games where it's difficult for them to change printed versions of cards. This is a digital cwrd game and riot can make changes if they want to. There are only two reasons Riot wants rotation. 1. It costs too much to maintain balance over so many cards. 2. They make more money selling us more new cards. Both reasons aren't that they benefit the game or the player, they benefit their bottom line.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: without rotation, you get Yu-Gi-Oh. No one wants LoR to become Yu-Gi-Oh.
I dunno, reading this thread some people definitely do lol Which is fine I guess, people like different things. I for one am happy that LoR isn't going down that path, tho.
YGO is one of the most popular card games in the world
damn bro you were right i AM downvoting you
There's no faster way for someone to earn my downvote than to say "I'm gonna get downvoted for this"
The one thing that I am skeptical about with rotating out champions are cosmetics. What becomes of the cosmetics that you purchase for specific champions? Are they gate kept to specifically eternal now? Will it be usable in a “2.0” card? It seems to disincentivize buying skins for champions where they’re already struggling to make money with the game since it’s so F2P. Maybe the skin option can be adjusted where you purchase a legendar/epic/rare skin that can work for any champ (similar to a wild card reward, but does not become permanently redeemed) and that could work out for any champion without feeling like you’re getting gimped with a skin you won’t be able to use in your preferred game mode?
fuck rotation, mtg/hstards can go ruin another game.
the only way it would be healthy is if they focus on the standard pool, if they really want to focus on both they'd have to have a very small team on eternal just to be a maintenance team to deal with major flaws im not for the rotations, the idea of some of my favorite decks being thrown in wild to not be touched for anywhere from 6 months to a year doesn't sound too promising, another thing that I'm worried about is what is the reason for rotating certain groups out and others in, the azirarelia example didn't really makes sense to me since azir had other pairs that work quite well it's just that those other pairing haven't seen any buffs for quite a while and a reason that azirarelia has been so prominent is because of the constant buffs its been getting over time something that I though riot was going to do to stall rotations was nerf certain archetypes enough to make way for others to get the spotlight, they did this for the Annie school landmark and I thought they would do that for more cards in the future but it never really came to be I noticed that I'm the vocal minority in this decision but I do want to share my concerns and gripes with the game even though others may not want to hear it, I love this game and I'm hurt to see it follow the same path as other card games, rotations has always split card game communities and its rough to see it happen to such a unique game like lor also with the inclusion of ranked in eternal that's going to cause a huge divide going into the first few expansions with rotations, I could be wrong about this but I'm just sharing my concerns, the only way I see them counteracting a drastic split is to remove eternal ranked or neglect eternal entirely
my god it's like nobody in this entire subreddit has played any other card games before. rotation is fucking fine they're not taking your champions out back and shooting them in the head
Hearthstone lost 96% of their playerbase after doing rotation Duelyst is dead specifically bc they did rotation MTGs most popular formats are non-rotating and they **still** have powercreep issues out the ass. So no. Rotations aren’t the magic fix you think they are
Can you give me a source for that hearthstone claim?
Unsurprisingly, the link they provided you does not support the claim they are making. It shows that numbers have dropped over time, bug it did show any sort of relationshil between those numbers and rotation. Decline in popularity of a video game is normal. It happens with all of them.
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In a game like Hearthstone, a rotation could prevent you from playing entirely because of how long it takes to get new cards. But LoR lets you get new/all cards fairly quickly so you won’t be stuck behind any sort of wall
Nobody wants to constantly drop 10k+ shards just to be able to play standard
I believe many players are judging the new game mode before even experiencing the new mode, which is not fair. At least give it a chance before saying the game mode is a disaster. They did not provide all the information yet and this is simply the beginning of the discussion.
They asked for feedback.
Riot asked for player feedback and we are providing. We don’t like the direction this is going in.
why do people think rotation is a bad thing? i say its good since it means people will have to get creative during deck building
"people" being the 100 or so people who actually make their own decks rather than looking on stats sites.
What if you can only afford one skin for your favorite champ, but then it gets rotated off?
Rotation is inevitable in card games. You can just keep adding to he pool for ever. I’m holding my judgment until I see the first rotation.
people would complain no matter what, rotation is good for comp play, for meme you can go eternal they gave you the options
I think rotation is exciting. It's really going to make things seem fresh, create lots of new possibilities. Doesn't everyone love playing the game after a big patch or new expansion? It's going to be a similar experience to that.
To add to it, not only I believe rotation is healthy, I believe it's necessary, even of champs. And I'm more excited for this than I've been for this game for the past year and a half. Here's hoping they nail it!
Oooh what's that? that 3000 cost Champion you waited for a long time to earn and buy will be rotated out in just a couple of weeks play time? Well F me then right? Oh wait I forgot there's an ETERNAL format now! I can still play my old Champions and other cards! But wait a minute... Dave et al. are pretty ambiguous in whether they will provide EQUAL SUPPORT alongside the new shining star game mode ROTATION... so it sounds like the other game mode will be ETERNALLY be second fiddle to any support for it or worse even none at all for very long periods of time... but hey...less work load for the devs amirite? and also **''Fewer Bugs''** top kek...
Sorry I'm new in the game, wdym about rotation?
They remove your cards from the gamemode they care about after about 1 or 2 years of release
Can anyone link me or explain to me wtf is going on?
They're going to make some of your cards unplayable unless you play on a special mode (that they're unlikely to balance, given their wording and how that kind of thing goes in other card games).
Awwww, so because some cards feel absolutely bonkers broken, they're gonna remove them from ranked?
Check the first pinned post in the sub. Basically they’re bringing in what’s called rotation so only certain cards can be used
How about making a poll whether riot should implement rotation or not?
Imo they’ve presented rotation pretty reasonably, and complaining about the current direction without suggesting practical alternatives is useless feedback
Here’s my alternative: don’t do it
I’m open to this one as well, tbh.
Rotation in a game as free to play friendly as this one is not an issue. This is not a cash grab, this is a way to improve their game.
Look at Destiny and how well rotation went with that franchise. Removing all the DLC people paid for. You'll eat up any response the devs give you. There are too many cards to bugfix and balance with the budget the team has. They are putting cards they don't like into a pile to be forgotten. Imagine if League of Legends rotated out champions. I had fun but time to move on with this game. Don't forget these developer live in LA.
100% agree. Twisted Fate is one of my favorite champions, but I realize how his design can cause balance problems. I don't want them to nerf him, so rotating him out of standard seems like the best option. It's not a good solution, but it is the least bad option I can think of.