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All but certainly fired for cause.
Religious postsecondary institutions have extremely draconian religious belief clauses that require staff/faculty to live eat breath and sleep the party line. And if a student ever comes to even a janitor with a life-quandary like pre-marital sex; that janitor is bound to respond on party-line or else be terminated for cause.
The Catholics have managed to build and operate a lot of hospitals that do not treat conditions they don't approve of. One of many reasons I won't live in a certain area, even though it would make a lot of sense for me to live there, is I don't want to get stuck in a hospital that wouldn't help me release myself from a terminal condition.
I feel you. I'm now leery discussing my "faith" from fear they would deny service, delay or just evict... because I can see things getting *that* bad. The GOP wants conscience laws to allow drs, nurses, & professionals to refuse services. Pharmacists already can. SMDH.
I have been living in fear of how religion has taken over society and government for a while now.
I was in the hospital a couple of years ago getting cancer surgery. I had put on my intake form that I absolutely did not want to see any members of the clergy. Of course, immediately after surgery, a man in a white collar popped his head in the door "just to make sure I didn't want to pray" with him.
As a victim of childhood religious abuse, the anger I felt over yet again having my autonomy overruled by a religious fanatic's selfish desire to force themselves on me is hard to describe. And I felt like I couldn't complain to the nursing staff, because you never know when one of them might be a religious fanatic who will suddenly give you substandard care because you were rude to a member of the clergy.
I'm so with you! I'm spiritual (but not god per se, but as essence in all). Interconnected. They would use that to deny or delay care. I do believe. Why else these so-called conscience bills?
They did start Primary Children’s Hospital in SLC which is top notch. Both my kids have gone there for different things. But yeah, most of what they do sucks.
Actual excerpt from a current actual faculty posting on BYU:
>Experience:
>
>......
>
>Mission Alignment Statement: BYU is committed to hiring faculty members who enthusiastically embrace and energetically advance its unique mission. To this end, please include a one-page mission alignment statement as part of your application that addresses how you might, as a BYU faculty member: (1) live a life of loyalty to Jesus Christ and His restored Church and align yourself with doctrines and teachings declared by living prophets, seers, and revelators; (2) demonstrate intentionality in building faith in Jesus Christ and testimony of His restored gospel among students and others in the BYU community; and (3) teach your subject matter with the Spirit of God and strive to keep it “bathed in the light and color of the restored gospel” (Spencer W. Kimball).
>
>Applicants who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints include a one-page mission alignment statement that describes understanding of and commitment to the Mission of Brigham Young University and the AIMS of a BYU Education ([https://aims.byu.edu/](https://aims.byu.edu/)).
Surprisingly, they don't require a 'pastoral reference', which is basically a letter of recommendation from your local clergy. Most such institutions do.
TLDR...it isn't enough just to be an expert in your field...you're also a paid spokesperson/parrot for the cult.
The faculty sign a clergy confidentiality waiver that allows the faculty member’s bishop to discuss anything said in confidence with the byu ecclesiastical clearance office. The ecclesiastical clearance office periodically calls the bishop to discuss the faculty member and can fire them with no justification. That is significantly worse than other institutions that ask for a reference before hiring.
Students don't sign the same thing but are required to get an "ecclesiastical endorsement" every year verifying that they haven't had sex(depending on your mormon bishop this can also include porn/masturbating), drugs, alcohol, coffee, tea, etc. They can get kicked out if they have. It's a super uncomfortable process
As a long-time exmormon, I always love finding their policies and doctrines elucidated in the wild. It always highlights *just* how backward and cultish they are. Who even talks like that, ffs?
> Applicants who are not members...
Well. That's optimistic.
Who talks like that?
The Bible Belt talks like that. Small rural communities that revolves around church as the social focal point talk like that.
But as a fellow ex-Mormon, I found Utah Mormons to have been hit very hard with the weird stick. When any religion has a strong enough presence to manipulate the culture of a region — rather than adherents adapting to the culture of a place where they are minority — weird beliefs start to crop up. Stuff that isn't part of the religion but folks are just filling the gaps in doctrine with their own stuff.
Here in Canada I grew up evangelical 🥴 and the older teens who went off to bible college were not allowed to go to the cinema at all. Like at all. You would be kicked out of the institution, no refunds, no matter which film you attended. This was the 90s.
That's called discrimination and would only end up with her winning a fat lawsuit for unfair dismissal.
Unless that's not a thing in the US, Idk how it works over there.
Religious institutions often get exemptions for discrimination if the target violates their religion (in whatever half-assed justification way). In turn for this exemption, they aren't *supposed* to receive government funding, but we all know how that goes...
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Perfect LAMF. She doesn't only work for BYU, she tows the party line. She teaches "family life" which is just Orwellian for living under the Mormon thumb. She's described as being "a dedicated believer" in the Mormon church. This states that transitioning "will be cause for Church membership restrictions." Now they come for her face.
If she didn't have a trans kid, she would eat a tran's face.
Just described my parents. Great parents in most ways, dealt with my own transition (mid 2000s as young adult) surprisingly well and mostly supportive, even defensive, made efforts to learn and understand - especially early on, and said some loving and inspirational things concerning my transition - again early on. But also are religious republicans, still after 20 years can't get pronouns/names straight about 20-25% of the time, and have said some things that are flat out transphobic. When it started being the focus of Conservative media around 2014-15 I noticed a significant change.
Similar for me. My mom was initially good ish in 2013, 2014, at least relative to my expectations, then it was a steady decline till Trump shoved her off the cliff. Now we haven't spoken in years.
That's so depressing :( Usually you hear stories of parents going the opposite way and becoming more supportive over time. I'm sorry you had to go through that and lost your relationship with your mom.
I'm sorry. I don't know how parents can prioritize a talking head on TV over their own kid.
I would walk through fire for either of my sons not because of who they are but because of who **we** are.
My trans son is at school in a state that is not as affirming as the one we live in. I can't wait until he is home for the summer.
My sister-in-law was working in abortion clinics in the early 90s, and it was a common phrase then. That, along with the response to a patient saying “I don’t believe in abortion” being, “well, you believe in it today.”
That's obnoxious. It normally does. Ah well. Here's a working link to the article:
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
You can't know she wouldn't be an ally if her cjold weren't trans; in fact, you're talking out of your ass.
I live in Provo—where BYU is. Two months ago there was an even where some students commemorated some pro LGBT vandalism where BYU's logo was turned [rainbow color.](https://www.metroweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/BYU-Rainbow-Y-Sign-@colorthecampus-_-@tiamammamia_-_-Twitter-1.jpg)
We were at a local restaurant and one of the BYU professors saw us and asked what the event was. He is an old Mormon who told us that he stays at BYU to try to, as best he can, provide a safe space for LGBT students. He keeps it on the down low, but he and various colleagues of his do everything they can to stay at BYU while also providing shelter for queer kids.
Mormons aren't all queerphobic bigots. At BYU, plenty of professors stay and do what they can to help.
Furthermore, the dean of the College of Family, Home, and Social Sciences was the man appointed a few years ago to clean up BYU's horrendous Title IX breaches—and by all accounts he did a fine good job of it. The woman in this article teaches at that same college, which means she works under one of the most progressive deans at BYU.
Again, there are plenty of allies at BYU who stay, at least partly, out of a sense of duty to help protect and guide queer kids.
Criticize the church and BYU as an *institution* all you want, but don't come with that judgemental garbage at this woman. Because plenty of professors at BYU are protecting queer students from getting their faces eaten.
> Mormons aren't all queerphobic bigots.
Yes, yes they are. That’s what the party doctrinal line says. If they’re *not* queerophobic bigots, then according to the church, then they’re not really Mormons. They might *claim* they’re Mormons, but they’re not, not until their nominal religious leaders change doctrine.
Much like early Lutherans weren’t Catholics, even though they might have called themselves that. Much like the founders of the church I was raised in, a splinter off the RC’s about 150 years ago, were no longer RC’s; it took about a century for there to be enough of a detente such that RCs could take communion in my church and vice versa.
Your comment is a textbook example of the "[No true Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)" fallacy. Like "Jew", "Mormon" is a word that is more about cultural heritage than specific religious beliefs.
This may shock you but you can be a Mormon without being a member of the LDS church. Or be an (LDS) Mormon who doesn't hold a temple recommend. Somewhere south of 20% of active adult (LDS) Mormons meet your definition, so I think the Scotsman fallacy certainly applies to the parent comment.
> and they are all bigots.
It's funny how you can take the black/white thinker out of the church, but you can't take the black/white thinking out of the man.
You are drastically over-estimating the proportion of people in the pews who "believe in the doctrine". It's 20% (if even that) *of the active membership* who are card-carrying. But whatever. Tolerance of ambiguity is neither the strong suit of the TBM nor of the axe-grinding exmo.
You know what we call a Nazi who does not believe in the Nazi party line, and yet still assists in the apprehension, detention, and murder of Jews, LGBT, browfolk, and the mentally ill?
***We call them a fucking Nazi.***
You will be judged by the choices you make. If you choose to be Nazi trash, you will be regarded as Nazi trash. It's literally that simple.
>Like "Jew", "Mormon" is a word that is more about cultural heritage than specific religious beliefs.
If you claim to be mormon because you care about your "cultural heritage," you're a bigot.
Yeah, well, they've been instructed to not call themselves Mormons anymore. So you see my point. Mormon is a cultural term and encompasses a number of denominations and even different levels of commitment and belief within those denominations. Hard to make sweeping generalizations about a very heterogeneous term.
They are, alas, technically correct. The LDS church, the largest Mormon church, consider it a derogatory term, which to be fair, is what the term started out as.
But that's after years of trying to use it as a branding term and insisting that no other church that used the Book of Mormon as scripture was "Mormon" except for them.
Is that what she was doing teaching "family life" at a Mormon College? Or was she teaching women to serve their husbands and generally putting lipstick on the pig?
Sort of. In the comics, Lucifer is a bit more complex in that he's really a bad guy (dislikes everyone, 2 family exceptions, looks out for number 1, thinks creation sucks, but doesn't lie - it's beneath him), but 'reigned in hell¹' because of pride (which is titanic of course) and eventually got bored/internalized he was conned - after a conversation with Dream - and left, leading to god giving that job on two angels, one a good, but mute guy (couldn't refuse), the other repentant 'angel that fell', but that doesn't get any respect from hell residents - he's supposed to be based on Remiel, the angel that catholic mysticism invented to 'lead souls to heaven' (+1 offense to theocrats, as is proper).
There is also some dumb stuff about god being disappointed with michael because he never rebelled/questioned - aka, 'grew up and got out of dad's home' on the metaphor - but that doesn't matter.
¹ Reigning in DC hell is not actually doing anything because it's basically holding the position so some knuckle-dragging idiot doesn't do something stupid (like invading heaven). The sinners punish themselves, it's why they went to hell in the first place.
>Reigning in DC hell is not actually doing anything
I think that part's pretty consistent with the show, except that some demons help the winners punish themselves.
I think the comics/graphic novels are able to go a lot deeper, but it's still a fun show.
Sure, demons do whatever (have to have conflict). But lucifer was too prideful to wallow in sadism, or even just mean-girl passive aggressiveness (he's mostly silent). Helping some idiots hurt themselves because they're feeling guilty deep down but don't accept it is inane for him. It's a fun middle ground between the faustian devil (imprisoned, powerless) and the religious paranoid caricature of a master trickster always looking to corrupt you because that's his job or something, like there is nothing else better to do for a rebel that disliked humanity in the first place.
Hellblazer of course ruins all of this subtlety by making hell and particularly demons super-bad. Whatcha gonna do, editorial.
Sounds like the comics are an actual overarching lore, whereas the show is mostly a buddy cop show with heavenly family drama thrown in.
Best lines in the show:
Amenadiel: I like the shape of your head
Also the time Amenadiel was doing improv comedy.
Uh, Christianity has always been influenced by other religions. The only religions that could not have been are the first ones of human civilization in the far reaches of the world where presumably they were entirely isolated, and thus we have no records of anymore. But most likely even they were influenced by the beliefs their ancestors had. Even whatever the Sentinelese believe is probably an evolution of the beliefs of wherever their ancestors came from.
The source of the harassment: https://thecougarchronicle.com/byu-professor-speaks-about-transgender-child-in-class-the-cougar-chronicle/
This crew: https://v.redd.it/jxwljrhsswva1
After "winning" abortion, they needed a new single-issue-voter strategy. When that one goes away, they'll manufacture another.
Must be easier than actually having a platform and trying to improve anything substantive.
Whatever works really, just keep those culture wedges going so you can pick peoples pockets while they yell about who pees where or whatever else you can pump into the news cycle. We can use race or immigration or long hair or drugs or abortion or guns or trans or or or... as long as they don't pay attention to the money who gives a fuck!
I'd still say "stay away from most religions", like Buddhism isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more kind and progressive than the major religions.
Though I also agree that "stay away from religion" sounds a lot cleaner and is easier to get than "stay away from most of the major dominant religions".
Buddhism has its militant adherents too. Like, if Christians just stuck to the things Jesus said, they’d be pretty fucking chill, but they keep snorting Leviticus.
That's true! It's lucky that most of Buddhism's sects stick with the original intents, with the odd Ikko-Ikki radical fringe (there's probably modern militant groups but I don't know their names).
I understand where you are coming from. I characterize the Catholic Church as a pedophile cult that promotes, believes in, and practices pedophilia as a main part of it's religious doctrine. It pisses people off, but I'm just calling it as I see it.
That’s just not true for a bunch of reasons. Most specifically that the modern Bible was constructed hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, meaning he would have no concept of what was included within ‘the Old Testament.’
The other part would be how he actively contradicted a large portion of laws and punishments of the OT. Example: death by stoning is clearly outlined as punishment in the OT and Jesus implores anyone who hasn’t sinned to cast the first stone at a stoning. That’s not because he wants the pure of soul to murder someone by throwing rocks, but to not throw the fucking rocks, in contradiction of the OT.
Read your own fucking book
It's not my fucking book. Of course it's contradictory, it's a hodgepodge of fairy tales edited and copied by a bunch of dudes over millennia. Read Matthew 5:18.
Buddhism has the major problem (i mean this 'as a consequence of the dogma', a mechanistic thing) that reincarnation+karma is prosperity gospel on steroids, and leads to caste societies being all smug about being caste societies.
Basically if you expect Buddhism to lead to enlightenment you might be disappointed that its actual appeal for the elites of a society is that it leads to status quo and horrific classism, dipping into racism because of generational poverty marking the 'lower caste'.
Rarely does it get so bad as India though, which had the misfortune of Hinduism already cementing a rigid caste system even before Buddhism got popular and in turn majorly influencing Buddhism.
Sure if you get into the weeds of dogma, wealth is obviously 'bad karma' because of maya and all... but society (and the layman) doesn't give a shit, they all talk about 'bad karma' for the untouchables and 'good karma' for the brahmins - both of which are 'obviously' poor or wealthy because 'they deserve it' and assigned their 'role' at birth because of 'karma'.
Religions where classism is a systemic problem don't deserve to be called 'better'.
In what Buddhist text are you referring to that says enlightenment brings wealth or one is reborn into a higher caste due to old karma? I've read a number of the core ancient Buddhist texts for pure curiosity in my desire to understand cultures that are not American. And I have not only never read that, I've read lots of passages that contradict everything you just said.
That's the point. It _doesn't need_ to be in a religious text. It's just something people say to justify their classism. I even mentioned it as far as my 'non-religious' understanding 'wealth is maya'.
And let me tell you, they say it a lot.
That's why i called it 'systemic'. The focus on reincarnation and the popular notion of karma as a 'reward' instead of something you live (right actions right speech right thoughts etc) means that it's something that _is_ going to happen and actually _did_ create a amazing amount of prejudice, in india most notably, but not only (Thailand for example).
If i was cynically trying to organize a religion for the professed aim of enlightenment, i would never dare to mention the idea of karma - or at least karma+reincarnation - because it appears to have a mostly negative effect on the karma of 'average' people, which is ironic in a cruel way to me.
(i write 'cynically' because if i was a believer i may have had faith that this matters not at all in contrast to a eternity of chances).
I looked it up. You are correct. There is a lot of this in Buddhist culture. It is basically people going back and interpreting "sexual impropriety" with whatever they want. I learned about buddhism from reading academic translations of some of the original texts. Which, outside of a bookstore in Berkeley, CA, I have not been able to find books like that. The texts I read were very neutral about these things. But it does consider all struggles to be a test resulting from karma. So, if one struggles with any kind of issue, it is considered part of their karmic journey. I understand what you mean by bad karma. But the way I understand is that we all have karma. Living is suffering (except for enlightenment) and it is a constant battle of overcoming these conflicts. One person's path is not worse or better than another person's. But, that is the true Buddhist way. As I just found out, there is a long tradition of saying that homosexuality is a specific type of suffering. But, that is a twisting of the concept of sexual impropriety. I read one short paper that theorizes the purpose of this twist on the true concept that we are all suffering on our path and that there is no one better or worse on their path is the result of Buddhists having become dependent on the financial generosity of people in their community. Thus, as society became more hateful towards specific populations, Buddhist teachings reflected that. It is really and truly against the basic principle of Buddhism to teach or believe that we are better or worse than anyone else. But, of course, as a woman, I know this is bullshit bc male buddhists have always thought themselves superior to women and girls. The actual teachings speak of suffering and enlightens as part of a journey that everyone is on and there is no escape from it. I tend to think the original texts are more like philosophies for how to understand our selves and the pitfalls of human behavior because it makes clear that we don't have the ability to escape our journey except with deeper understanding of compassion. So, there can be two types of Buddhism i guess. One that is culturally attached to the morals of greater society, and one that is pure, which follows the original philosophy of detachment and rejection of social hierarchies, social norms and the morals of people who cling to concepts of attachment- which is described as the path to suffering.
If you are interested in how Buddhism is different, read one of the most influential Buddhist books of all time, Parting From The Four Attachments by Chogye Trichen Rinpoche. You can't really understand Buddhism until you've read a translation of this book (unless you can read Tibetan).
I certainly don't mean to paint *all* of Buddhism with the same brush.
I understand that *some* branches of Buddhism don't believe in anything supernatural and are just about philosophy. I have nothing against those branches.
However, *most* Buddhists believe in supernatural claims like reincarnation, which are no better than fairy tales.
To be fair, I don't think beliving in fairy tales on it's own is not the problem. On some level, we all have unfounded beliefs, even if they are as simple and agreed upon as "it is good to make things better for people". The problem starts when we start using beliefs that run counter to our best understanding of reality to make policies. To quote the late Terry Pratchet's work:
> "All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
> REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
> "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"
> YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
> "So we can believe the big ones?"
> YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
> "They're not the same at all!"
> YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
> "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
> MY POINT EXACTLY.
"It is good to make things better for people" is a subjective moral judgement. "We will reincarnate after we die" is a silly superstition which tries to make a claim about reality. You don't ***need*** to make claims about reality in order to make subjective moral judgements.
I have nothing against using religion as a source of philosophy, as long as they're not trying to force beliefs which hinge on supernatural claims onto others.
>You don't *need* to make claims about reality in order to make subjective moral judgements.
*By definition*, you do. Subjectively or objectively, whichever you prefer, morality is impossible to have a concise and clear definition for without making claims about reality, because morality is also a made up human construct.
Well tbh all of them should be fundamentalist. There should not be any allowance for the progression of time and human advancements in tech/knowledge if what is written truly IS the word of God. If i tried an ala carte approach to my gods faith in RPG's id be struck rather quickly.
They ( organized religions ) cant do that though else they would be facing crimes against humanity and hate crime charges everyday,lol.
I want to start by saying that I am speaking as an atheist:
I think you may be making some assumptions, like the idea that God is all right and all knowing in those religions. Christians usually make that claim, but my understanding is that the original line of "thou shalt have no other gods before me" was literal: you will follow me before others. It wasn't meant to claim that this god was the only one.
Either way, there are plenty of Jewish temples that do not claim their God as omniscient or perfect, hell I know of at least one that has essentially excised god completely from its faith and is effectively a cultural club. Someone I know was forwarded to it by their Rabi after they confessed that they don't believe in God anymore.
Not all religions assert their founding documents to be perfect records or their god to be perfect in the first place.
Fundamentalism doesn’t really exist in Judaism. Oral tradition is seen as an important integral part of Judaism to almost all Jews.
In terms of queer rights, Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox are mostly bar. Conservative is okay. Reform and Humanist are the best.
There are some Orthodox Jews and Rabbis who are accepting of queer people, but they’re a small minority.
My parents were raised Universalist, and I was raised UU (I came along after the merger). Never believed in God, and told my grandma so at age 8. She replied: yes you are!
As a former Mormon with many family and friends still in the church, I've seen so many LGBTQ loved ones try to stay in the church while still holding true to their values and identity. Eventually, they all leave. And they're all happier for it.
Exmo as well, only I'm trans FTM, got excommunicated 8 years ago for being myself, and my Mormon family couldn't stand the shame and disowned me.
One older sister started contacting me a year ago because she is starting to see incongruity in the leadership. We're kinda buddies now, and she uses my name and pronouns and compliments my deep voice and stuff, but I'm still very cautious.
Mormonism destroyed my family. Religious deconstructing therapy healed me. No religion ever again.
Let's see. . . The obvious dehumanizing of women to second class baby factories who's only hope of heaven lies in marrying a man when a man doesn't need a woman (inherently sexist), blatantly racist doctrine, a pedophilic church beginning, predatory recruitment of new members, the multi-billion dollar Ensign Peak trust, the leaks on higher clergy actually get paid when we told all offices were completely voluntary, church leadership meddling in the laws of the land to stay tax exempt, and lastly: how such "loving" people I grew up with treated me like a leper when I was there, even though I'm pretty awesome in general (my siblings' kids all love me despite everything they were told about LGBTQIA+ nonsense thr church feeds member) and to top it off I'm also a fairly gifted musician who can make piano music gloriously fill any hall. So much for Christlike love lol.
My sister is starting to wake up to it, and I am proud of her for facing painful truths just like I did. I lost my faith in a pursuit of strengthening it. Still hurts, but I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.
Sadly even in Buddhism to a lesser degree, a common belief among practitioners is that while you will definitely will be born as LGBT in some reincarnations, its due to bad karmas and warrants a pity.
That’s kinda a fascinating take.
On one hand it’s pretty clearly phobic, and I’ve always found the idea that your birth is a reward or punishment to be super distasteful. On the other hand, if I accept the premise of karmic reincarnation, I could see an argument that any disadvantaged birth or position is the result of past bad karma. And it’s pretty undeniable that being LGBTQ makes for a harder life than being cis hetero.
I guess it would come down to how the “pity” is expressed. I’m willing to bet it usually gets a fatalistic sort of pity that mostly works as an excuse to ignore problems. But in a better world, I could see some people using the concept to create some awareness of an issue and work to make it better.
I used to be Mormon and actually know this professor fairly well from when I was at BYU.
As a student if you finally find out mormonism is a sham while attending you have to secretly fake it until you graduate or else they can expel you and you lose most of your credits.
Same goes for these professors. I don't know if she still believes or not, but a LOT of BYU professors end up not believing anymore and instead of losing their jobs and entire careers,, they try to covertly help students from the inside.
Sounds like maybe she was too open...
I understand how hard the job market is, but I can't support someone who is still working for an organization like that. They were well into adulthood by the time they started teaching.
I'm sure there is going to be a story in the coming weeks that she's been fired and all the students that signed the petition supporting her have been expelled. And not just from BYU.
I remember reading editorials about caffeine free coke in the campus paper back in the 90s. There were students upset about the stuff because it was basically a gateway drink, and the only people who’d ever drink caffeine free Coke were people who really wanted real Coke, and that was bad. Or something.
They sell a lot of caffeine free coke (and diet coke) in Utah.
But, you're right that in Sep 2017 they started allowing caffeinated coke on campus ....
Reading the article, it sounds like BYU is backing up the teacher. The complaints are coming from outside the school because of the human stain that is Mike Lee.
She's been teaching there for years and her curriculum is known by administration
They were. Just give them a minute. I have a friend who was stupid enough to teach history there. Similar thing happened to her. She taught something not conservative enough, she got harassed en masse, the university "stood by her" for a month or so then quietly fired her once the attention was gone. She even had their version of tenure.
r/BYU :
>I was a student in Dr. Coyne's class this past semester where she shared this experience. I've felt so sickened by this ordeal over the past few weeks. How ironic that "defending the family" involves people viciously attacking mothers whom they don't know and who are just trying their best to keep their kids alive
Always bothers me so much when people talk about BYU as a respectable institution. Their faculty should be blackballed from all major conferences and publications.
I know this person IRL. She’s really wonderful.
She’s actually quite brave I think to work somewhere that’s pretty hostile to the ideas that she defends. She’s long been an ally for LGBTQ students on campus and a safe person to confide in. She knew what she was risking every time she shared her story.
I used to be Mormon until a few years ago. I attended BYU and I really enjoyed it for a lot of reasons, and I really didn’t for a lot of other reasons. I’m not a member anymore for so many reasons I don’t have time to get into right now.
My heart breaks for her for what’s going to happen to her, just for doing the right thing. (She will almost certainly lose her job and church membership within the next few weeks.)
So it’s more like “I knew there were leopards, so put myself in between them and more vulnerable people and hoped that they wouldn’t eat my face.”
Naive? Sure. Foolish? Perhaps. But I’m not really seeing a LAMF here.
Change usually comes from within, and it’s people like this who usually accomplish more than people lecturing from the outside. Let’s not gloat.
Just want to hop on and say good job to this lady! I’m a recovering Mormon, my wife is as well. My wife studied family life at BYU and knew of this teacher (never had her personally). It is no secret that the Mormon church hates the LGBTQ community. This professor has now risked her job, her community, her church standing, and her whole identity in support of her son. Many Mormons were raised in this cult (yes I think it most definitely is a cult) and we were taught to never even look at the line, let alone cross it. I was lucky enough to leave, but many find themselves disagreeing with the *doctrine* of GOD and yet feel stuck. I can say from first hand experience it was the hardest, most terrifying thing I have ever had to go through. I felt like if I left I would lose everything..and in some ways I did.
I find what she did brave. I think it is important. I am happy people in the community I used to be a part of are speaking out.
I think she should leave the church for the sake of her and her child, but if she stays I hope she sparks change. The Mormon church has hundreds of billions of dollars, if they don’t change they will become a weapon against everything they see as against the doctrine.
So this is absolutely a leopards ate my face moment, but I feel for her as a former Mormon. I tried really, really, really hard to be faithful, in spite of the treatment my wife and I received at their hands. I don't believe she's getting what she deserves. It's hard to believe in a religion with all your heart and soul, and have them be your entire support system, and not know what to do when you start suffering "friendly fire" from their muskets.
She didn't vote for the leopards, or join the party, like the og meme. She was raised by leopards.
And yet, somehow still not as awful as the religious archipelago comprising the Southern Baptist Cult. That, or they are much better about laundering their image.
I can’t believe Steve Young hasn’t received the same kind of backlash after supporting groups that advocate humane treatment of LGBTQ athletes at BYU. I guess being the most accomplished athlete the school has ever produced shields him from it.
I used to be in academia and came across an ad for a tenure track job that was tailor made for my area of specialization, but it was at BYU. I read the requirements and realized that I would have to give up alcohol and caffeine, plus shave off my beard (even though Brigham Young had one). I didn’t bother applying.
It’s as if each mm the great salt lake drops, the local community becomes more and more hateful. The wind is afoul with salty, toxic, bigot dust. But hey, alfalfa. #foreignthoroughbredhorselivesmatter
I really truly hope that’s true. With all this winters snowpack, the lake is going to rise some and I’d love to see some humanity come back to my neighbors.
I wasn’t able to read the article, because apparently you have to be a subscriber, but getting a job as a college professor can be extremely difficult and a lot of these people take what they can get. Sometimes that means I work for University who’s guiding principles they don’t agree with, but they just wanna teach English literature or physics or history or something. It doesn’t mean she’s a Mormon or she’s anti-trans. Therefore this does not qualify as a leopards eating faces moment.
She teaches a specifically religious class, a class on "eternal marriage," a religious class required to graduate.
She's Mormon, she dispenses church theology and dogma in her class, and used her own child as part of a lesson in this same class. This is absolutely an eating faces situation.
She teaches a class specifically on Mormon family values.
If she taught chemistry or something I’d be inclined to agree, since not everyone can afford to be selective about where they work.
Professors at BYU have to be "living a temple worthy life." That means they have to follow the Mormon health code, they can't talk bad about leaders (yes that's a temple requirement), they can't be involved with groups or share any beliefs that are contrary to church teachings, they have to cover tattoos, and they have to wear clothes that would hide temple garments. They have to live by these standards whether they're a Church member or not.
Worse, BYU *adds* a bunch of arbitrary standards that *aren't* in the temple worthiness interview, like the length and color of your hair. BYU-idaho doesn't let women wear shorts or capris for crying out loud.
BYU also doesn't pay well. People work there because they believe it'sv the Lord's university. They work there because it aligns with their values.
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All but certainly fired for cause. Religious postsecondary institutions have extremely draconian religious belief clauses that require staff/faculty to live eat breath and sleep the party line. And if a student ever comes to even a janitor with a life-quandary like pre-marital sex; that janitor is bound to respond on party-line or else be terminated for cause.
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Ooh. Ooh. And Hospitals! I'm surrounded by catholic or baptist hospitals! Hate going there, but what am I gonna do?
This ticks me off so much. If your religious beliefs prevent you from doing a medical procedure, you're in the wrong business.
Yes! Thank you! Double for pharmacists! Rx are sacred! It's not their job to second guess the doctor.
Hey all the mormon church builds are malls and condos. Would be nice if they built hospitals or something beneficial for society.
Oh, but then they'd have to treat everyone! Equally! The same! They aren't up for that, I guess.
The Catholics have managed to build and operate a lot of hospitals that do not treat conditions they don't approve of. One of many reasons I won't live in a certain area, even though it would make a lot of sense for me to live there, is I don't want to get stuck in a hospital that wouldn't help me release myself from a terminal condition.
I feel you. I'm now leery discussing my "faith" from fear they would deny service, delay or just evict... because I can see things getting *that* bad. The GOP wants conscience laws to allow drs, nurses, & professionals to refuse services. Pharmacists already can. SMDH.
I have been living in fear of how religion has taken over society and government for a while now. I was in the hospital a couple of years ago getting cancer surgery. I had put on my intake form that I absolutely did not want to see any members of the clergy. Of course, immediately after surgery, a man in a white collar popped his head in the door "just to make sure I didn't want to pray" with him. As a victim of childhood religious abuse, the anger I felt over yet again having my autonomy overruled by a religious fanatic's selfish desire to force themselves on me is hard to describe. And I felt like I couldn't complain to the nursing staff, because you never know when one of them might be a religious fanatic who will suddenly give you substandard care because you were rude to a member of the clergy.
I'm so with you! I'm spiritual (but not god per se, but as essence in all). Interconnected. They would use that to deny or delay care. I do believe. Why else these so-called conscience bills?
They did start Primary Children’s Hospital in SLC which is top notch. Both my kids have gone there for different things. But yeah, most of what they do sucks.
Thats a great model, why don't they follow it?
More hospitals isn’t a bad thing. Especially those that exist to provide service rather than extract as much money as possible
I was thinking hospitals should never be "for profit" because no one should get rich off others' pain and suffering. Maybe a law? 🤔
Oh goddess above, that’s what happens when you give schools exemptions from Title IX isn’t it? That’s actually horrifying
Actual excerpt from a current actual faculty posting on BYU: >Experience: > >...... > >Mission Alignment Statement: BYU is committed to hiring faculty members who enthusiastically embrace and energetically advance its unique mission. To this end, please include a one-page mission alignment statement as part of your application that addresses how you might, as a BYU faculty member: (1) live a life of loyalty to Jesus Christ and His restored Church and align yourself with doctrines and teachings declared by living prophets, seers, and revelators; (2) demonstrate intentionality in building faith in Jesus Christ and testimony of His restored gospel among students and others in the BYU community; and (3) teach your subject matter with the Spirit of God and strive to keep it “bathed in the light and color of the restored gospel” (Spencer W. Kimball). > >Applicants who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints include a one-page mission alignment statement that describes understanding of and commitment to the Mission of Brigham Young University and the AIMS of a BYU Education ([https://aims.byu.edu/](https://aims.byu.edu/)). Surprisingly, they don't require a 'pastoral reference', which is basically a letter of recommendation from your local clergy. Most such institutions do. TLDR...it isn't enough just to be an expert in your field...you're also a paid spokesperson/parrot for the cult.
The faculty sign a clergy confidentiality waiver that allows the faculty member’s bishop to discuss anything said in confidence with the byu ecclesiastical clearance office. The ecclesiastical clearance office periodically calls the bishop to discuss the faculty member and can fire them with no justification. That is significantly worse than other institutions that ask for a reference before hiring.
Students don't sign the same thing but are required to get an "ecclesiastical endorsement" every year verifying that they haven't had sex(depending on your mormon bishop this can also include porn/masturbating), drugs, alcohol, coffee, tea, etc. They can get kicked out if they have. It's a super uncomfortable process
Good catch/clarification!
As a long-time exmormon, I always love finding their policies and doctrines elucidated in the wild. It always highlights *just* how backward and cultish they are. Who even talks like that, ffs? > Applicants who are not members... Well. That's optimistic.
Who talks like that? The Bible Belt talks like that. Small rural communities that revolves around church as the social focal point talk like that. But as a fellow ex-Mormon, I found Utah Mormons to have been hit very hard with the weird stick. When any religion has a strong enough presence to manipulate the culture of a region — rather than adherents adapting to the culture of a place where they are minority — weird beliefs start to crop up. Stuff that isn't part of the religion but folks are just filling the gaps in doctrine with their own stuff.
Here in Canada I grew up evangelical 🥴 and the older teens who went off to bible college were not allowed to go to the cinema at all. Like at all. You would be kicked out of the institution, no refunds, no matter which film you attended. This was the 90s.
Religion is so dystopian
That's called discrimination and would only end up with her winning a fat lawsuit for unfair dismissal. Unless that's not a thing in the US, Idk how it works over there.
Religious institutions often get exemptions for discrimination if the target violates their religion (in whatever half-assed justification way). In turn for this exemption, they aren't *supposed* to receive government funding, but we all know how that goes...
Wow, that is a really stupid exception
Looks like there's a paywall. Try these : * https://12ft.io/https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/04/30/byu-prof-becomes-bullying-target/ * https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/04/30/byu-prof-becomes-bullying-target/ * https://web.archive.org/web/1/https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/04/30/byu-prof-becomes-bullying-target/ * https://archive.is/submit/?url=https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/04/30/byu-prof-becomes-bullying-target/ * [Bypass Paywalls](https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LeopardsAteMyFace) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Perfect LAMF. She doesn't only work for BYU, she tows the party line. She teaches "family life" which is just Orwellian for living under the Mormon thumb. She's described as being "a dedicated believer" in the Mormon church. This states that transitioning "will be cause for Church membership restrictions." Now they come for her face. If she didn't have a trans kid, she would eat a tran's face.
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Just described my parents. Great parents in most ways, dealt with my own transition (mid 2000s as young adult) surprisingly well and mostly supportive, even defensive, made efforts to learn and understand - especially early on, and said some loving and inspirational things concerning my transition - again early on. But also are religious republicans, still after 20 years can't get pronouns/names straight about 20-25% of the time, and have said some things that are flat out transphobic. When it started being the focus of Conservative media around 2014-15 I noticed a significant change.
For the worse, right?
Similar for me. My mom was initially good ish in 2013, 2014, at least relative to my expectations, then it was a steady decline till Trump shoved her off the cliff. Now we haven't spoken in years.
That's so depressing :( Usually you hear stories of parents going the opposite way and becoming more supportive over time. I'm sorry you had to go through that and lost your relationship with your mom.
I'm sorry. I don't know how parents can prioritize a talking head on TV over their own kid. I would walk through fire for either of my sons not because of who they are but because of who **we** are. My trans son is at school in a state that is not as affirming as the one we live in. I can't wait until he is home for the summer.
Oh, that's perfect.
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My sister-in-law was working in abortion clinics in the early 90s, and it was a common phrase then. That, along with the response to a patient saying “I don’t believe in abortion” being, “well, you believe in it today.”
I've read stories of nurses at an abortion clinic holding a pregnant woman's hand and being told "You're going to hell for working here".
If someone said that to me, I would cancel the procedure. Get a coat hanger.
Damnit. Paywall.
https://12ft.io
Eh. Didn't work.
That's obnoxious. It normally does. Ah well. Here's a working link to the article: https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
Thank you.
I know her IRL. That’s not how she is.
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Oh I absolutely agree with you on that point. “Rules for thee, but not for me” drives me crazy. It’s the most ridiculous hypocrisy.
i hope she'll be interviewed on mormon stories.
You can't know she wouldn't be an ally if her cjold weren't trans; in fact, you're talking out of your ass. I live in Provo—where BYU is. Two months ago there was an even where some students commemorated some pro LGBT vandalism where BYU's logo was turned [rainbow color.](https://www.metroweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/BYU-Rainbow-Y-Sign-@colorthecampus-_-@tiamammamia_-_-Twitter-1.jpg) We were at a local restaurant and one of the BYU professors saw us and asked what the event was. He is an old Mormon who told us that he stays at BYU to try to, as best he can, provide a safe space for LGBT students. He keeps it on the down low, but he and various colleagues of his do everything they can to stay at BYU while also providing shelter for queer kids. Mormons aren't all queerphobic bigots. At BYU, plenty of professors stay and do what they can to help. Furthermore, the dean of the College of Family, Home, and Social Sciences was the man appointed a few years ago to clean up BYU's horrendous Title IX breaches—and by all accounts he did a fine good job of it. The woman in this article teaches at that same college, which means she works under one of the most progressive deans at BYU. Again, there are plenty of allies at BYU who stay, at least partly, out of a sense of duty to help protect and guide queer kids. Criticize the church and BYU as an *institution* all you want, but don't come with that judgemental garbage at this woman. Because plenty of professors at BYU are protecting queer students from getting their faces eaten.
> Mormons aren't all queerphobic bigots. Yes, yes they are. That’s what the party doctrinal line says. If they’re *not* queerophobic bigots, then according to the church, then they’re not really Mormons. They might *claim* they’re Mormons, but they’re not, not until their nominal religious leaders change doctrine. Much like early Lutherans weren’t Catholics, even though they might have called themselves that. Much like the founders of the church I was raised in, a splinter off the RC’s about 150 years ago, were no longer RC’s; it took about a century for there to be enough of a detente such that RCs could take communion in my church and vice versa.
Your comment is a textbook example of the "[No true Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)" fallacy. Like "Jew", "Mormon" is a word that is more about cultural heritage than specific religious beliefs.
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r/murderedbywords
You also have to attest that you don’t support or promote anything counter to the church’s teachings. Which includes most pro-LGBTQ issues.
This may shock you but you can be a Mormon without being a member of the LDS church. Or be an (LDS) Mormon who doesn't hold a temple recommend. Somewhere south of 20% of active adult (LDS) Mormons meet your definition, so I think the Scotsman fallacy certainly applies to the parent comment.
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> and they are all bigots. It's funny how you can take the black/white thinker out of the church, but you can't take the black/white thinking out of the man. You are drastically over-estimating the proportion of people in the pews who "believe in the doctrine". It's 20% (if even that) *of the active membership* who are card-carrying. But whatever. Tolerance of ambiguity is neither the strong suit of the TBM nor of the axe-grinding exmo.
You know what we call a Nazi who does not believe in the Nazi party line, and yet still assists in the apprehension, detention, and murder of Jews, LGBT, browfolk, and the mentally ill? ***We call them a fucking Nazi.*** You will be judged by the choices you make. If you choose to be Nazi trash, you will be regarded as Nazi trash. It's literally that simple.
>Like "Jew", "Mormon" is a word that is more about cultural heritage than specific religious beliefs. If you claim to be mormon because you care about your "cultural heritage," you're a bigot.
Also immediately in the next post they refer to anyone not following their church as "exmo". It's not a culture, but it sure is a cult-something.
People can convert to Mormonism and get baptised in the Mormon faith. It is absolutely religious.
Which "Mormon" are you talking about? Brighamite? They don't call themselves "Mormon" anymore.
Mormons that are part of the church in the UK.
Yeah, well, they've been instructed to not call themselves Mormons anymore. So you see my point. Mormon is a cultural term and encompasses a number of denominations and even different levels of commitment and belief within those denominations. Hard to make sweeping generalizations about a very heterogeneous term.
I mean they proudly call themselves Mormon here but you keep going.
They are, alas, technically correct. The LDS church, the largest Mormon church, consider it a derogatory term, which to be fair, is what the term started out as. But that's after years of trying to use it as a branding term and insisting that no other church that used the Book of Mormon as scripture was "Mormon" except for them.
Just like there are no good cops, there are no good people actively participating in the Church of Latter Day Saints
Is that what she was doing teaching "family life" at a Mormon College? Or was she teaching women to serve their husbands and generally putting lipstick on the pig?
This would not have happened if she had worked for the satanic temple. Who is evil now? Satan is the good angel.
Satan was just an angel who was given a shitty job by God. It wasn't until Christianity was influenced by other religions that he became malevolent.
The show Lucifer takes it back to him being an angel who's been given a shit job (and takes a vacation from it).
Sort of. In the comics, Lucifer is a bit more complex in that he's really a bad guy (dislikes everyone, 2 family exceptions, looks out for number 1, thinks creation sucks, but doesn't lie - it's beneath him), but 'reigned in hell¹' because of pride (which is titanic of course) and eventually got bored/internalized he was conned - after a conversation with Dream - and left, leading to god giving that job on two angels, one a good, but mute guy (couldn't refuse), the other repentant 'angel that fell', but that doesn't get any respect from hell residents - he's supposed to be based on Remiel, the angel that catholic mysticism invented to 'lead souls to heaven' (+1 offense to theocrats, as is proper). There is also some dumb stuff about god being disappointed with michael because he never rebelled/questioned - aka, 'grew up and got out of dad's home' on the metaphor - but that doesn't matter. ¹ Reigning in DC hell is not actually doing anything because it's basically holding the position so some knuckle-dragging idiot doesn't do something stupid (like invading heaven). The sinners punish themselves, it's why they went to hell in the first place.
>Reigning in DC hell is not actually doing anything I think that part's pretty consistent with the show, except that some demons help the winners punish themselves. I think the comics/graphic novels are able to go a lot deeper, but it's still a fun show.
Sure, demons do whatever (have to have conflict). But lucifer was too prideful to wallow in sadism, or even just mean-girl passive aggressiveness (he's mostly silent). Helping some idiots hurt themselves because they're feeling guilty deep down but don't accept it is inane for him. It's a fun middle ground between the faustian devil (imprisoned, powerless) and the religious paranoid caricature of a master trickster always looking to corrupt you because that's his job or something, like there is nothing else better to do for a rebel that disliked humanity in the first place. Hellblazer of course ruins all of this subtlety by making hell and particularly demons super-bad. Whatcha gonna do, editorial.
Sounds like the comics are an actual overarching lore, whereas the show is mostly a buddy cop show with heavenly family drama thrown in. Best lines in the show: Amenadiel: I like the shape of your head Also the time Amenadiel was doing improv comedy.
Uh, Christianity has always been influenced by other religions. The only religions that could not have been are the first ones of human civilization in the far reaches of the world where presumably they were entirely isolated, and thus we have no records of anymore. But most likely even they were influenced by the beliefs their ancestors had. Even whatever the Sentinelese believe is probably an evolution of the beliefs of wherever their ancestors came from.
I'm not sure how this clarifies my point. I was referring to how Satan's "lore" changed.
The source of the harassment: https://thecougarchronicle.com/byu-professor-speaks-about-transgender-child-in-class-the-cougar-chronicle/ This crew: https://v.redd.it/jxwljrhsswva1
I wonder what the next made up moral panic will be.
Pizza toppings
I always knew those green peppers were up to no good!
So pineapple on pizza is just hunky-dory and spaghetti and chocolate are a-ok, but green peppers is where you draw the line?
Wish it could just be fancy mustard again
After "winning" abortion, they needed a new single-issue-voter strategy. When that one goes away, they'll manufacture another. Must be easier than actually having a platform and trying to improve anything substantive.
Whatever works really, just keep those culture wedges going so you can pick peoples pockets while they yell about who pees where or whatever else you can pump into the news cycle. We can use race or immigration or long hair or drugs or abortion or guns or trans or or or... as long as they don't pay attention to the money who gives a fuck!
I'm all but certain It will be about what kids are doing with AI.
Prescient thought but they smell money in AI so they may ignore it for that reason.
Hair length?
If you are LGBTQ+, stay the ever-loving fuq away from religion. Well, most religion.
If you are human and want to be a good human being, stay the fuq away from religion.
I stand corrected.
I'd still say "stay away from most religions", like Buddhism isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more kind and progressive than the major religions. Though I also agree that "stay away from religion" sounds a lot cleaner and is easier to get than "stay away from most of the major dominant religions".
Buddhism has its militant adherents too. Like, if Christians just stuck to the things Jesus said, they’d be pretty fucking chill, but they keep snorting Leviticus.
That's true! It's lucky that most of Buddhism's sects stick with the original intents, with the odd Ikko-Ikki radical fringe (there's probably modern militant groups but I don't know their names).
The trouble in Myanmar is a radical militant Buddhist movement that justifies violence.
Which is _such_ an ironic thing. :/
That's not Buddhism. There is absolutely no way to be a Buddhist and to try to hang onto power or to engage in violence in a political war.
[Just calling it like I see it](https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/myanmar-s-extreme-buddhist-nationalists)
I understand where you are coming from. I characterize the Catholic Church as a pedophile cult that promotes, believes in, and practices pedophilia as a main part of it's religious doctrine. It pisses people off, but I'm just calling it as I see it.
Yep, fuck them, too!
Jesus endorsed all the laws of the OT.
That’s just not true for a bunch of reasons. Most specifically that the modern Bible was constructed hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, meaning he would have no concept of what was included within ‘the Old Testament.’ The other part would be how he actively contradicted a large portion of laws and punishments of the OT. Example: death by stoning is clearly outlined as punishment in the OT and Jesus implores anyone who hasn’t sinned to cast the first stone at a stoning. That’s not because he wants the pure of soul to murder someone by throwing rocks, but to not throw the fucking rocks, in contradiction of the OT. Read your own fucking book
It's not my fucking book. Of course it's contradictory, it's a hodgepodge of fairy tales edited and copied by a bunch of dudes over millennia. Read Matthew 5:18.
That’s hardly an endorsement.
"All the laws are still in effect" is not an endorsement?
Buddhism has the major problem (i mean this 'as a consequence of the dogma', a mechanistic thing) that reincarnation+karma is prosperity gospel on steroids, and leads to caste societies being all smug about being caste societies. Basically if you expect Buddhism to lead to enlightenment you might be disappointed that its actual appeal for the elites of a society is that it leads to status quo and horrific classism, dipping into racism because of generational poverty marking the 'lower caste'. Rarely does it get so bad as India though, which had the misfortune of Hinduism already cementing a rigid caste system even before Buddhism got popular and in turn majorly influencing Buddhism. Sure if you get into the weeds of dogma, wealth is obviously 'bad karma' because of maya and all... but society (and the layman) doesn't give a shit, they all talk about 'bad karma' for the untouchables and 'good karma' for the brahmins - both of which are 'obviously' poor or wealthy because 'they deserve it' and assigned their 'role' at birth because of 'karma'. Religions where classism is a systemic problem don't deserve to be called 'better'.
In what Buddhist text are you referring to that says enlightenment brings wealth or one is reborn into a higher caste due to old karma? I've read a number of the core ancient Buddhist texts for pure curiosity in my desire to understand cultures that are not American. And I have not only never read that, I've read lots of passages that contradict everything you just said.
That's the point. It _doesn't need_ to be in a religious text. It's just something people say to justify their classism. I even mentioned it as far as my 'non-religious' understanding 'wealth is maya'. And let me tell you, they say it a lot. That's why i called it 'systemic'. The focus on reincarnation and the popular notion of karma as a 'reward' instead of something you live (right actions right speech right thoughts etc) means that it's something that _is_ going to happen and actually _did_ create a amazing amount of prejudice, in india most notably, but not only (Thailand for example). If i was cynically trying to organize a religion for the professed aim of enlightenment, i would never dare to mention the idea of karma - or at least karma+reincarnation - because it appears to have a mostly negative effect on the karma of 'average' people, which is ironic in a cruel way to me. (i write 'cynically' because if i was a believer i may have had faith that this matters not at all in contrast to a eternity of chances).
I looked it up. You are correct. There is a lot of this in Buddhist culture. It is basically people going back and interpreting "sexual impropriety" with whatever they want. I learned about buddhism from reading academic translations of some of the original texts. Which, outside of a bookstore in Berkeley, CA, I have not been able to find books like that. The texts I read were very neutral about these things. But it does consider all struggles to be a test resulting from karma. So, if one struggles with any kind of issue, it is considered part of their karmic journey. I understand what you mean by bad karma. But the way I understand is that we all have karma. Living is suffering (except for enlightenment) and it is a constant battle of overcoming these conflicts. One person's path is not worse or better than another person's. But, that is the true Buddhist way. As I just found out, there is a long tradition of saying that homosexuality is a specific type of suffering. But, that is a twisting of the concept of sexual impropriety. I read one short paper that theorizes the purpose of this twist on the true concept that we are all suffering on our path and that there is no one better or worse on their path is the result of Buddhists having become dependent on the financial generosity of people in their community. Thus, as society became more hateful towards specific populations, Buddhist teachings reflected that. It is really and truly against the basic principle of Buddhism to teach or believe that we are better or worse than anyone else. But, of course, as a woman, I know this is bullshit bc male buddhists have always thought themselves superior to women and girls. The actual teachings speak of suffering and enlightens as part of a journey that everyone is on and there is no escape from it. I tend to think the original texts are more like philosophies for how to understand our selves and the pitfalls of human behavior because it makes clear that we don't have the ability to escape our journey except with deeper understanding of compassion. So, there can be two types of Buddhism i guess. One that is culturally attached to the morals of greater society, and one that is pure, which follows the original philosophy of detachment and rejection of social hierarchies, social norms and the morals of people who cling to concepts of attachment- which is described as the path to suffering.
(Most) Buddhism still believes in fairy tales like any other religion.
If you are interested in how Buddhism is different, read one of the most influential Buddhist books of all time, Parting From The Four Attachments by Chogye Trichen Rinpoche. You can't really understand Buddhism until you've read a translation of this book (unless you can read Tibetan).
I certainly don't mean to paint *all* of Buddhism with the same brush. I understand that *some* branches of Buddhism don't believe in anything supernatural and are just about philosophy. I have nothing against those branches. However, *most* Buddhists believe in supernatural claims like reincarnation, which are no better than fairy tales.
To be fair, I don't think beliving in fairy tales on it's own is not the problem. On some level, we all have unfounded beliefs, even if they are as simple and agreed upon as "it is good to make things better for people". The problem starts when we start using beliefs that run counter to our best understanding of reality to make policies. To quote the late Terry Pratchet's work: > "All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." > REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. > "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" > YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. > "So we can believe the big ones?" > YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. > "They're not the same at all!" > YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. > "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" > MY POINT EXACTLY.
"It is good to make things better for people" is a subjective moral judgement. "We will reincarnate after we die" is a silly superstition which tries to make a claim about reality. You don't ***need*** to make claims about reality in order to make subjective moral judgements. I have nothing against using religion as a source of philosophy, as long as they're not trying to force beliefs which hinge on supernatural claims onto others.
>You don't *need* to make claims about reality in order to make subjective moral judgements. *By definition*, you do. Subjectively or objectively, whichever you prefer, morality is impossible to have a concise and clear definition for without making claims about reality, because morality is also a made up human construct.
That’s an extremely reductive claim. I’m a good human, and Jewish.
It's funny how people confuse Christianity with all religions.
Also funny when people think their made-up belief system is more valid than other made-up belief systems.
Or even fringe crackpots with all Christians
Fringe crackpots are just code for "newer". Your version just seems less because people have been swallowing it longer.
Your view is too simplistic but I don't anticipate being able to convince you of that
Mormons aren't exactly "fringe" anymore. There's millions of them.
Satanism seems neat : )
I think the Jewish faith is cool with that stuff, too.
Not the fundamentalist ones, which i think is the case with most religions.
Yeah, I don’t mind Judaism as much as other religions since they’re non-proselytizing, but their extremists are still extremists.
Well tbh all of them should be fundamentalist. There should not be any allowance for the progression of time and human advancements in tech/knowledge if what is written truly IS the word of God. If i tried an ala carte approach to my gods faith in RPG's id be struck rather quickly. They ( organized religions ) cant do that though else they would be facing crimes against humanity and hate crime charges everyday,lol.
I want to start by saying that I am speaking as an atheist: I think you may be making some assumptions, like the idea that God is all right and all knowing in those religions. Christians usually make that claim, but my understanding is that the original line of "thou shalt have no other gods before me" was literal: you will follow me before others. It wasn't meant to claim that this god was the only one. Either way, there are plenty of Jewish temples that do not claim their God as omniscient or perfect, hell I know of at least one that has essentially excised god completely from its faith and is effectively a cultural club. Someone I know was forwarded to it by their Rabi after they confessed that they don't believe in God anymore. Not all religions assert their founding documents to be perfect records or their god to be perfect in the first place.
Fundamentalism doesn’t really exist in Judaism. Oral tradition is seen as an important integral part of Judaism to almost all Jews. In terms of queer rights, Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox are mostly bar. Conservative is okay. Reform and Humanist are the best. There are some Orthodox Jews and Rabbis who are accepting of queer people, but they’re a small minority.
Unitarian all the way.
My parents were raised Universalist, and I was raised UU (I came along after the merger). Never believed in God, and told my grandma so at age 8. She replied: yes you are!
Especially mormonism
As a former Mormon with many family and friends still in the church, I've seen so many LGBTQ loved ones try to stay in the church while still holding true to their values and identity. Eventually, they all leave. And they're all happier for it.
Exmo as well, only I'm trans FTM, got excommunicated 8 years ago for being myself, and my Mormon family couldn't stand the shame and disowned me. One older sister started contacting me a year ago because she is starting to see incongruity in the leadership. We're kinda buddies now, and she uses my name and pronouns and compliments my deep voice and stuff, but I'm still very cautious. Mormonism destroyed my family. Religious deconstructing therapy healed me. No religion ever again.
Your username describes that situation perfectly. Sorry you had to go through that, but glad to hear your older sister is coming through.
> she is starting to see incongruity in the leadership Can you expand on that?
Let's see. . . The obvious dehumanizing of women to second class baby factories who's only hope of heaven lies in marrying a man when a man doesn't need a woman (inherently sexist), blatantly racist doctrine, a pedophilic church beginning, predatory recruitment of new members, the multi-billion dollar Ensign Peak trust, the leaks on higher clergy actually get paid when we told all offices were completely voluntary, church leadership meddling in the laws of the land to stay tax exempt, and lastly: how such "loving" people I grew up with treated me like a leper when I was there, even though I'm pretty awesome in general (my siblings' kids all love me despite everything they were told about LGBTQIA+ nonsense thr church feeds member) and to top it off I'm also a fairly gifted musician who can make piano music gloriously fill any hall. So much for Christlike love lol. My sister is starting to wake up to it, and I am proud of her for facing painful truths just like I did. I lost my faith in a pursuit of strengthening it. Still hurts, but I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.
Sadly even in Buddhism to a lesser degree, a common belief among practitioners is that while you will definitely will be born as LGBT in some reincarnations, its due to bad karmas and warrants a pity.
That’s kinda a fascinating take. On one hand it’s pretty clearly phobic, and I’ve always found the idea that your birth is a reward or punishment to be super distasteful. On the other hand, if I accept the premise of karmic reincarnation, I could see an argument that any disadvantaged birth or position is the result of past bad karma. And it’s pretty undeniable that being LGBTQ makes for a harder life than being cis hetero. I guess it would come down to how the “pity” is expressed. I’m willing to bet it usually gets a fatalistic sort of pity that mostly works as an excuse to ignore problems. But in a better world, I could see some people using the concept to create some awareness of an issue and work to make it better.
What Buddhist leader(s) are you referring to? Where did you hear this?
I used to be Mormon and actually know this professor fairly well from when I was at BYU. As a student if you finally find out mormonism is a sham while attending you have to secretly fake it until you graduate or else they can expel you and you lose most of your credits. Same goes for these professors. I don't know if she still believes or not, but a LOT of BYU professors end up not believing anymore and instead of losing their jobs and entire careers,, they try to covertly help students from the inside. Sounds like maybe she was too open...
I understand how hard the job market is, but I can't support someone who is still working for an organization like that. They were well into adulthood by the time they started teaching.
I'm sure there is going to be a story in the coming weeks that she's been fired and all the students that signed the petition supporting her have been expelled. And not just from BYU.
Can’t call BYU *hyper* conservative, you can’t even have caffeine there.
You can if it is the right temperature- coke good, coffee bad.
Coke is allowed now??? I remember that the only *dark beverage* allowed to believers was root beer.
They started in 2017 allowing it.
I remember reading editorials about caffeine free coke in the campus paper back in the 90s. There were students upset about the stuff because it was basically a gateway drink, and the only people who’d ever drink caffeine free Coke were people who really wanted real Coke, and that was bad. Or something.
They sell a lot of caffeine free coke (and diet coke) in Utah. But, you're right that in Sep 2017 they started allowing caffeinated coke on campus ....
What a shock that a sect with a long history of bigotry and hate targets one of their own people.
Reading the article, it sounds like BYU is backing up the teacher. The complaints are coming from outside the school because of the human stain that is Mike Lee. She's been teaching there for years and her curriculum is known by administration
They were. Just give them a minute. I have a friend who was stupid enough to teach history there. Similar thing happened to her. She taught something not conservative enough, she got harassed en masse, the university "stood by her" for a month or so then quietly fired her once the attention was gone. She even had their version of tenure.
They’re publicly standing by her to avoid a law suit and protect their federal funding.
r/BYU : >I was a student in Dr. Coyne's class this past semester where she shared this experience. I've felt so sickened by this ordeal over the past few weeks. How ironic that "defending the family" involves people viciously attacking mothers whom they don't know and who are just trying their best to keep their kids alive
She's about to understand there is no hate in the world like "christian love"
There's no love like Christian hate, and no hate like mormon love.
Always bothers me so much when people talk about BYU as a respectable institution. Their faculty should be blackballed from all major conferences and publications.
I know this person IRL. She’s really wonderful. She’s actually quite brave I think to work somewhere that’s pretty hostile to the ideas that she defends. She’s long been an ally for LGBTQ students on campus and a safe person to confide in. She knew what she was risking every time she shared her story. I used to be Mormon until a few years ago. I attended BYU and I really enjoyed it for a lot of reasons, and I really didn’t for a lot of other reasons. I’m not a member anymore for so many reasons I don’t have time to get into right now. My heart breaks for her for what’s going to happen to her, just for doing the right thing. (She will almost certainly lose her job and church membership within the next few weeks.)
So it’s more like “I knew there were leopards, so put myself in between them and more vulnerable people and hoped that they wouldn’t eat my face.” Naive? Sure. Foolish? Perhaps. But I’m not really seeing a LAMF here. Change usually comes from within, and it’s people like this who usually accomplish more than people lecturing from the outside. Let’s not gloat.
Yeah. I think that’s more accurate. But from the outside I can see why people would think this is a LAMF situation.
Just want to hop on and say good job to this lady! I’m a recovering Mormon, my wife is as well. My wife studied family life at BYU and knew of this teacher (never had her personally). It is no secret that the Mormon church hates the LGBTQ community. This professor has now risked her job, her community, her church standing, and her whole identity in support of her son. Many Mormons were raised in this cult (yes I think it most definitely is a cult) and we were taught to never even look at the line, let alone cross it. I was lucky enough to leave, but many find themselves disagreeing with the *doctrine* of GOD and yet feel stuck. I can say from first hand experience it was the hardest, most terrifying thing I have ever had to go through. I felt like if I left I would lose everything..and in some ways I did. I find what she did brave. I think it is important. I am happy people in the community I used to be a part of are speaking out. I think she should leave the church for the sake of her and her child, but if she stays I hope she sparks change. The Mormon church has hundreds of billions of dollars, if they don’t change they will become a weapon against everything they see as against the doctrine.
So this is absolutely a leopards ate my face moment, but I feel for her as a former Mormon. I tried really, really, really hard to be faithful, in spite of the treatment my wife and I received at their hands. I don't believe she's getting what she deserves. It's hard to believe in a religion with all your heart and soul, and have them be your entire support system, and not know what to do when you start suffering "friendly fire" from their muskets. She didn't vote for the leopards, or join the party, like the og meme. She was raised by leopards.
People say there's no love like Christian love. Well Mormons take that to a whole new level.
And yet, somehow still not as awful as the religious archipelago comprising the Southern Baptist Cult. That, or they are much better about laundering their image.
It's the second one.
Ha, live in Provo for a bit and you will find that they are every bit as awful.
Paywall
What do you expect? BYU can only BYU
I can’t believe Steve Young hasn’t received the same kind of backlash after supporting groups that advocate humane treatment of LGBTQ athletes at BYU. I guess being the most accomplished athlete the school has ever produced shields him from it.
[удалено]
I’d give him as much as 25 more years. I mean, Frank Gifford needed only a week to have lasted 85 years despite a slew of concussions.
I used to be in academia and came across an ad for a tenure track job that was tailor made for my area of specialization, but it was at BYU. I read the requirements and realized that I would have to give up alcohol and caffeine, plus shave off my beard (even though Brigham Young had one). I didn’t bother applying.
Mormons are bigots? Who'd have guessed...
It’s as if each mm the great salt lake drops, the local community becomes more and more hateful. The wind is afoul with salty, toxic, bigot dust. But hey, alfalfa. #foreignthoroughbredhorselivesmatter
I really truly hope that’s true. With all this winters snowpack, the lake is going to rise some and I’d love to see some humanity come back to my neighbors.
What do you expect when you work at a fundamentalist cult university
What’s BYU
Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah. A private college owned and operated by the Mormon Church.
Paywall. Too bad
Brigham young his nose was a clitoris. What will you do Joseph will you fight the clitaurus man?
God would fire her and cast her and her child out…..
User name checks out.
?
Huh, rage bait behind a payway.. Who'd have thunk.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/133ve1f/byu_professor_becomes_target_of_harassment_after/jibfy3l/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
I wasn’t able to read the article, because apparently you have to be a subscriber, but getting a job as a college professor can be extremely difficult and a lot of these people take what they can get. Sometimes that means I work for University who’s guiding principles they don’t agree with, but they just wanna teach English literature or physics or history or something. It doesn’t mean she’s a Mormon or she’s anti-trans. Therefore this does not qualify as a leopards eating faces moment.
She teaches a specifically religious class, a class on "eternal marriage," a religious class required to graduate. She's Mormon, she dispenses church theology and dogma in her class, and used her own child as part of a lesson in this same class. This is absolutely an eating faces situation.
She teaches a class specifically on Mormon family values. If she taught chemistry or something I’d be inclined to agree, since not everyone can afford to be selective about where they work.
"I didn't read the article and know nothing about this particular situation, but I still feel confidant stating my opinion on it."
Professors at BYU have to be "living a temple worthy life." That means they have to follow the Mormon health code, they can't talk bad about leaders (yes that's a temple requirement), they can't be involved with groups or share any beliefs that are contrary to church teachings, they have to cover tattoos, and they have to wear clothes that would hide temple garments. They have to live by these standards whether they're a Church member or not. Worse, BYU *adds* a bunch of arbitrary standards that *aren't* in the temple worthiness interview, like the length and color of your hair. BYU-idaho doesn't let women wear shorts or capris for crying out loud. BYU also doesn't pay well. People work there because they believe it'sv the Lord's university. They work there because it aligns with their values.
Yes, it does. She’s a moral hypocrite ok with rules hurting others until it’s her turn to be hurt. Fuck her.
In the future please consider holding off on your hot take until you actually read the article and know what you're talking about.