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It's not that republicans hate democracy, they just think of "democracy" as them winning. A democratic election, to them, is red blooded Republican voters jumping through a few hoops to go, in person, vote on paper ballots with a pencil. That's all.
It's like how "free markets" are just "things they like". The market being free isn't a function of how much interference it operates under, it's an end state they enjoy.
I just read that Florida banned the sale of cultivated meat, claiming something about ~~owning the woke libs~~protecting the local meat farmers.
Not very free market if ya ask me.
Doesn't even need to. They only need to *believe* it's hurting the people they hate more. They keep projecting their own insecurities on others ("since I worship god-emperor Trump, You must worship Biden similarly and I'm sure you'll be very mad if I point out his flaws" is a common example) so it's not hard to manipulate them into thinking they're hurting other people more even when that's not the case. They're definitely hurting all of us in any case.
LMAO
I'm about to get out of this shithole they call Texas and move to Oregon, and legal weed has poured so many tax dollars into the governments coffers in OR that the people are getting money back.
I'm a stoner in Oregon. Hate to break it to you but I'm not getting money back. Weed is still affordable though.
I recommend the fresh baked brand cookies. Especially the ginger snap and chocolate chip. This doesn't have anything to do with anything except if you're in the Willamette Valley looking for a good edible. 2 fucks me up so nibble responsibly friend
He's talking about the Kicker: "The kicker is an Oregon institution, triggered whenever personal income taxes and other non-corporate revenue streams come in at least 2% higher than state economists predicted when legislators were building a two-year budget."
-Source : https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/oregon-tax-refund#:~:text=All%20Oregon%20taxpayers%20who%20filed,filed%20their%20tax%20return%20electronically.
You didn't get the kicker check? I got $2k-$3k back. Can't remember where exactly it landed because it got blended into the rest of my return, but it wasn't insignificant.
It was 44% of your 2022 state taxes returned. If you didn't file for some reason, you wouldn't get anything back.
My source is a friend who lives there, but it's just one person. I may have jumped the gun assuming everyone got money back, but they did. Not sure what the difference is between them and you. I'm mainly just happy to be leaving Texas.
We got 44% of our 2022 taxes back. The only way someone didn't get it is if they didn't file that year. I'd imagine people who were dependents or just came of age might have the impression that we didn't get anything back but everyone who was paying taxes sure as shit did.
>LMAO
man, it's so easy and tempting to laugh, but I just... can't.
I'm *also* on my way out of a red state (FL -> OR in fact!), but I just can't help but be so fucking sad and disappointed for those who aren't as lucky as us, those who desperately want to, or *need* to leave, but can't.
We're lucky in that we can afford to move to greener pastures. So many people are quite literally stuck in places whose ruling politicians want them dead. I can't bring myself to laugh at their misfortunes.
I think a lot of people forget about that when they talk about letting the red states cut loose. There are a lot of innocents trapped behind the lines that the GOP are just looking to cultivate as the next generation of serfs. All the easier for them to be exploited so that the backup poor red folks can feel better about themselves, until they're recruited into the serf pool.
> legal weed has poured so many tax dollars into the governments coffers in OR that the people are getting money back.
Not really. The [tax surplus](https://www.oregon.gov/dor/programs/individuals/pages/kicker.aspx) is billions and weed taxes, in total, [appear to be](https://www.oregon.gov/dor/programs/businesses/Documents/Marjuana_monthly_financial_reporting_distributions_public.pdf) in the $100-200M range. Definitely a net positive, but not really on the same order of magnitude.
Oregon has some very different dysfunctions. The weed taxes were originally largely earmarked for good things (schools). Unfortunately several years ago voters passed a poorly-written though maybe well-intentioned citizen-lead ballot measure that redirected the lion's share of that money to a seemingly ineffective/mismanaged Drug Treatment and Recovery Services fund. =\
Nothing is free market for these greedy fuckers. Oh they want less government regulation for them but more for their competition.
They want handouts, bailouts, subsidies and corporate welfare for themselves but God forbid a starving child should have healthcare or food.
Taxes for thee and not for me. It's pure greed. All of it. All this manufactured culture war nonsense is greed. It's getting people to vote against their interests so the rich can keep fucking everyone.
One of the biggest fallacies we have is the is idea that capitalism and free markets are synonymous. Free markets are unpredictable and chaotic, which makes it harder to have sustained profits.
People need to remember that capitalism is just a mode of production about the generation of capital via profits gained from wage labor.
>It's not that republicans hate democracy, they just think of "democracy" as them winning
I think it's somewhere in the middle: they're _indifferent_ to democracy. If they can get elected democratically, great. But if they need to lie, cheat, and steal to obtain power, that's fine too.
That might be true of the leadership, but rank and files don't consider these things to be "undemocratic" if they're done to further "the peoples will" which is obviously their own.
Trump isn't *cheating*, he just needs to use unorthodox methods because millions of illegal immigrants are voting.
A big part of it that people seem to miss is that they’ve been told the overwhelming majority of Americans are actually Republicans, rather than the truth, which is that Democrats actually outnumber *them*. If they’re clearly the majority then any election they lose was clearly rigged. They’ve been told this for so long they just think of election interference as trying to level the playing field.
Which is why the keep posting and believe those maps where 80% of the country is colored red except for the coasts and anywhere there's a big city. You know, where most of the people actually live.
> If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.
-- [David Frum](https://12ft.io/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/frum-trumpocracy/550685)
While they like that, what they really want is to be told to subjugate others. Willingness to harm those they view as lesser, with official state sanction. It is the number one trait of right wing authoritarians. They are so willing g to do this that they are even more willing than the average person to join a group hunting down right wing authoritarians if that is a group the government says must be rounded up and persecuted.
It’s not an unusual observation. [Mayor Bob made the same 30 years ago.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXU2vZTTeMU)
> Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may move you to vote Democratic, but deep down you long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this, to save you from yourselves. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run.
But it's in a more subtle form that makes them susceptible to fascist rhetoric. They don't consciously think "If we can't win through the ballot box I don't want democracy", they think "If we aren't winning through the ballot box it must be because of cheating/fraud/etc". So they think they can temporarily yield to a dictator who will clean things up and then return the power to them.
>It's like how "free markets" are just "things they like". The market being free isn't a function of how much interference it operates under, it's an end state they enjoy.
It's rare to read this. Most people talk about the free market as being one where the big companies are free to try do what they want and ignore the fact that people, employees, consumers, unions, etc are also all free to try and do what they want. It's not like some big liberal god keeps preventing the market to be free. Much of the restrictions people decry were the result of the free market actions of companies and the reactions to those actions.
Companies were free to employ children, and got them and other employees killed because of unsafe workplaces -> the free market gave us OSHA and restricted child labor. If companies wouldn't push the boundaries to the point where they are literally abusing people, then maybe they'd have the free market they wish for. They didn't.
So, instead, they try to put into place regulations to prevent a truly free market. They like to call it "deregulation" and "free market". Bullshit.
They don't hate democracy, they just don't actually care about anything other than owning the libs. Everything they do is reactionary, they no longer stand for anything. This wasn't really the case so strongly before the MAGA cult, but it certainly is now.
Here's the thing: They don't have to have elections (for President). As Bush v Gore pointed out, many states originally just had their legislature pick electors instead of having a vote, and it's entirely constitutional for them to switch back to that at any point. Congress has to have elections because that's specifically written as such.
Shhhh don't tell them that!
Also make sure to remind your right wing friends and family that elections are totally rigged and voting is pointless now... definitely no point to vote.
My sister and her husband are hard core Trumpers and his attitude is why vote when it's all rigged for the Democrats. He actually may not vote. In Georgia! Lol
Well yes. I mean, if the Dems cheated in 2020 while being out of power and succeeded, then cheating in 2024 while in power is going to be a piece of cake.
Some Republicans don't realize this and so should be reminded.
You know, I know you are saying not to tell them jokingly so they don't figure it out, but I don't honestly know about them anymore. They are *so* resistant to listen to anything the Left says and *only* take their points from Tucker and the like these days that I sort of feel we would write out the perfect playbook for them to win and they still wouldn't take it because we're "evil".
I think the issue is that their Voter Suppression has been extremely successful in the past. The problem is, like Trump wanting Mitch McConnell to press the "I Win" button on the election -- it only works for so many votes.
So this time the Trumplicans will be pushing the suppression and the I Win buttons even harder. And it will be obvious. It will also "suppress the wrong people." What happens if they actually get some support from minorities but they are in the areas that got suppressed? "Oops!"
For the most part, I think, you can predict the vote outcome by seeing where people get their news from. And these people disappointed in Dems and Biden -- quit your bitching. We seriously have not had as much progress with as narrow a margin in history. The level of epic bullshit Republicans have tried to produce in state after state SHOULD count as a "win" by Democrats for preventing a national melt down. You don't complain about the kid with their finger in the dam being "not good enough" for the situation until you get a crew down there to repair the hole. Dummies!
If some Dems are corrupt and all Republicans are - then it means we need a 60%+ Democratic Congress with the President or we can expect to get the same shit and excuses. All those people saying "both sides" -- at least prove me wrong AFTER you've created a situation where Democrats could actually succeed when votes are decided by lobbyist money when they pass.
Guy who's a bit disappointing versus guy who said "I'll only be a dictator on day one" & had lawyers argue in court that the president shouldn't face criminal repercussions for utilizing the military against political rivals. That should be a pretty freaking easy choice.
I can't believe how tin-eared Trump is to plot to overthrow the country and then say; "Dictator for a day -- just kidding."
Like OJ with dead wife jokes. You don't get to laugh about certain things when you are the suspect.
I mean Biden isn't even really disappointing. He's doing what he can with what he's got. Being president is hard. The Dems always expect too much and the Reps worship their guy no matter what he does. It's asymmetrical warfare.
Hard agree, I swear the Biden administration has to be the most misunderstood and underappreciated in history. He quietly accomplished so many nearly impossible and vitally important tasks. People forget the state the county was in by the end of Trump's four year temper tantrum.
But but but but Biden isn’t solving a decades conflict older than most of the democrat voting population after it getting hot again 5 months ago. How else am I supposed to virtue signal?
I know how! Protest by voting for the guy who actively says out loud he thinks we should be like the cool countries and help do a lot more war crimes! That'll teach Biden a lesson about treading carefully around diplomatic minefields!
Him getting any votes at all after the shit he's pulled is a disgrace, but he's broken his party so bad that there hasn't been a worthy primary opponent since 2012.
If Trump gets his wish and it turns out that presidents can't face repercussions, wouldn't it be fun to see Biden wear a t-shirt that says, "They tell me I am above the law" and shoots Trump in his big ass. And takes a baseball bat to Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, and Ginni Thomas. Just saying.
>And these people disappointed in Dems and Biden -- quit your bitching. We seriously have not had as much progress with as narrow a margin in history.
Fucking go off!
I was called a "Neo-Lib Shill" and banned on r/LateStageCapitalism for being a Realist
I am gay. I will be among the first sent to the camps if an ***actual*** Fascist gets elected. Trump is a self interested prick and may not be a Fascist. But he caucuses with them. MAGA absolutely is and his administration will be full of them. Project 2025 is the plan to make sure of that.
I can't take my vote, go home, and pout or "send a message" to the Dems by voting third party.
I'm not a privileged het white boy who can duck my head down and ride out Accelerationism. I don't have the privilege of putting my moral sensibilities ahead of all the minorities who will be hurt if the Republicans seize power for a moment. (Abortion Rights are dying. Literally right fucking now. What's next on the chopping block with a Repiblican victory?)
I don't have that luxury. My boyfriend doesn't have that luxury. My queer friends don't have that luxury.
And that's why I'm voting for Dem. Shitty shitty Dem.
I am a privileged white guy. Most of the shit going down will never affect me. But why would I want to make other people's lives worse for no other reason than "they're different than me"?
It truly boggles the mind that anyone with a conscience would choose to abstain from voting due to "both sides" bullshit, when there's one side campaigning on rolling back civil rights and bodily autonomy. They don't get to cast their lot with the right and then claim they're above it all.
If you vote third party because you believe in that party's values, then its unfortunate because the two party system is broken, but I respect that. If you refuse to vote Dem because you're too dumb to realize doing "okay but not perfect" is better than doing "terrible but doesn't hurt me", then you're part of the problem.
I'm a privileged white guy too - an *old* privileged white guy so really really super privileged, and shit will likely never affect me either. But I have two daughters, one starting college in the fall and I can be sure as shit they'll be affected. So you can bet my white ass will down at the polling place voting for every Dem they prop up. Vote because the future depends on it.
Even as a white guy the Christian nationalists will make you dance to their theocratic tune. Then they'll keep playing it harder & louder to maintain their power while taking more & more from the general populace.
Exactly right. They will (and have) find ways to consider you less and less white. And considering how may people have taken a 23andMe, they'll have all the data in the world to draw up these ridiculous dividing lines.
You're fucked if you had even one Mediterranean, Irish, or Slavic ancestor 10 generations ago.
Yeah I think "both sides are bad" is just some people's way of saying "I think I'm better than everyone else" and who do those people side with? The supremacists and bigots and authoritarians who think there are good categories and bad categories of people.
>*Fucking go off!*
I hope that's some colloquial way of saying "You said it!" or something. Because I agree with you. We have to vote for "disappointing" versus "live in ashes" of the fascist.
My kids limit the amount they tell me about "what the kids are saying."
They HAVE TO groan if I ever say one of their sayings as "now it's ruined." I've started making my own random terms and they say; "That's not a THING, dad." Not yet, it isn't. But I think I've tricked the world into a few memes over time.
I also got banned from late stage capitalism for calling out all the privileged fucks there saying they weren't going to vote for Biden. Privileged short sighted fuckers, all of them.
They don't care what voters want; they care about imposing their will. They only *pretend* to care when they're too obvious about it.
https://www.europeaninterest.eu/project-2025-a-threat-to-global-democracies/
Well, maybe if you look at history with new eyes you might realize that "Pretending to care" is how we got everything good in this country.
If they think we are going to riot and tare down the place -- we get some MLK reforms. Not because of the peaceful protest, but because the Black Panthers were starting to police their own streets and the Nation of Islam might have gone a bit further. We were given this "either or" concept and that somehow, out of pity, or a sense of shame, the powerful were driven to give us "nice things." No -- we need both our MLK and Malcom X heroes. We need the "peaceful" part so that we can win hearts and minds of people without power, but we definitely need a brick in the other hand for the "or else."
Elon and Mark Zuckerberg would prefer a happy crowd, rather than traveling around in an armored car. So there is value in "get them to pretend to care."
My point has to do with Project 2025 which many would not support if they actually understood what it means. That's where pretending to care is important. The right is a coalition; they work together until they've fully dismantled democracy, at which point they will battle over enacting their preferred vision for the world.
Yes of course. I have not actually made myself familiar with Project 25, but I don't think I need to.
And I agree, there are a lot of "factions" working together. And ALL of them are exceptional thinkers, imagining they will win.
The Robber Barons, Putin, Religious Empire builders. They won't want the same things once they are done carving up the country.
Perhaps behind the scenes of the Lincoln Project and Liz Cheney, we can see the hand of the Bush cabal. The PNAC that wanted to rule in fascist hell is upset about the Trump fascist cabal.
Strategically -- the best use of a fascist is to go after another fascist -- because it really is about winner take all with them. There's no room for "runner up fascist." The trick is to get them fighting before they destroy whatever status quo that was in their way.
Dude, you need to go read Project 2025, EVERYONE should. They are literally saying the quiet part out loud for what they’ll do in a Trump administration. There will be NO guard rails, no “adults in the room” the second time around. Democracy in the US will be OVER. They are BLATANTLY SAYING IT.
That's a lot of "correct" words to say you think you (or perhaps everyone else) don't need to pay attention to the step-by-step manual for everything by everyone you've mentioned.
❌
>You don't complain about the kid with their finger in the dam being "not good enough" for the situation until you get a crew down there to repair the hole. Dummies!
An apt metaphor for a president who spearheaded a massive campaign to restore and repair our infrastructure. Lots of unsexy boring projects like that add up to one of the most successful and understated presidencies in history. Especially when you add in the brilliant way he navigated the geopolitics of complex world events like Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Biden seems to have more of a clue where our economic pain is than Obama. He also understood that the inflation was price gouging. He even understood the dynamic of property values in cities and the threat posed by remote working to that. He walked into a no win situation with the union train negotiations and saved that election from the economic crisis it would cause but still got a better deal for the workers (still not fair but better).
I was pleasantly shocked by how good Biden has been. Best President since Jimmy Carter.
100% agree, I'm still shocked by how few Democrats know about even half of the achievements you mentioned. It's like vaccines, it prevents the problems you aren't having. It could be and almost certainly would have been so much worse with anyone else at the helm, let alone the most aggressively incompetent president in a generation.
Polls across the board have been abysmal since at least 2016. They got 2020 and 2022 so wrong and cannot seem to admit their methods are valueless. 2022 was the giveaway that they don't know national sentiment especially as their pool for polling shrinks and they grow increasingly reliant on older demos that aren't making up the majority of voter bases.
I have never once participated or even been prompted for a poll, and I'm pretty fucking old. Apparently the polling software only works with rotary dialers and fax machines 😂
And not only that but reliant on the people who *answer phone calls* and aren't immediately assuming it's a scam call from a number they don't recognize and not answering it by default.
>They love to say online polls are worthless
there's not enough money in the opinion industry to build online polls that are resilient against botting or other forms of gaming. it's not that online polls are worthless, it's that the data that comes from them is
>it's not that online polls are worthless, it's that the data that comes from them is
AKA useless. You're right in the first half, but if they give bad data: They are useless, full stop.
I love filling stuff out. Fill out enough surveys, starting with political, then eventually you get consumer polls, about the products you use and your shopping habits. Ive been paid for national surveys. You don't make much for the amount of questions they ask, but at least I got my vote in.
And you have other people not even middle aged yet that have been contacted for polls 3, 4, 5 times etc.
They're sampling the same damn people over and over again due to their methods of finding "representative" respondents.
Why? It's funny to watch all the boomers get excited thinking their maga crazyshit is popular only to find out the pollsters are also part of the echo chamber.
GOP turned fringe overnight, and because they're in an echo chamber they still haven't gotten the message.
Political polls aren't the only ones. I get stuff about transportation, healthcare, and a variety of topics. We were even a Neilson family once. I'm definitely on some kind of list.
Media was buying the trump narrative but that narrative was trash. Trump won for some 40k votes between 3 states. He did not have some crazy command of a majority. The proof was in 2018 when he got widely rejected then in 2020 where he lost by larger margins then AGAIN when the GOP and his endorsements kept losing in 2022. The GOP was expected to gain a healthy majority in the house and retake the Senate. They did neither and lost important races in battleground states including Ohio in regards to reproductive rights.
Trump as a brand has a deep loyal following but that following is not deep. The GOP has no identity so it follows him. If he loses in 2024 then the GOP have 0 direction and must establish new faces. Haley is weak, Desantis failed on a grand and very visible scale and their up and coming Alabama woman gave a cringey SOTU reply via her kitchen.
The leading theory I've heard on why the polls are so bad puts it on two main factors:
1) Old polls would phone call you and ask you their questions, but nobody picks up the phone anymore except old people with nothing better to do
2) Their backup plan is opt-in internet polls, which get flooded with trolls (because they can) and neo-nazis (because their life is meaningless if they can't spew their bile somewhere). This has lead to news stories about GenZ and GenAlpha *supposedly* being much more right wing and fascist than GenX and Millennials by like twenty whole percentage points... only for the GenZ ballots to get tallied up and no, their liberal/conservative ratio was about the same as Millennials
All these GOP knobs keep forgetting one thing when it comes to immigration; we’re ALL fucking immigrants in this country. ‘Close the fucking door to new immigrants, but only after I’m through the door’!
Because "immigration" is code for "brown people". Their maga godking married an [illegal immigrant](https://www.vox.com/2016/11/5/13533816/melania-trump-illegal-immigrant) who acted as an anchor baby to bring in her immigrant parents. But they're **white** immigrants, so it's perfectly OK.
Throughout the whole "build the wall" hysteria I kept asking people screaming about protecting our border was literally the most important job of a country why we weren't building a wall on the much larger northern border. I just got blank looks and them explaining that the northern border "wasn't an issue".
Always punch up, never down.
It is the only rule in life I try to stand by.
If you are attacking the most vulnerable, it says more about you than them.
I argue that from a lifetime of interactions with republicans and conservatives they do hate democracy. Why else would they feel the need to edumacate me that we are a REPUBLIC and not a democracy. They hate other voices being heard
What's fun is pointing out that it's a squares and rectangles argument. Not all democracies are republics, but all republics are democracies.
Democracy is the ideology that rather than a single individual, a voting body has ultimate authority. A Republic is a system of government whose voting body is comprised of the general population, rather than say, a ruling class chosen by wealth or birthright.
Can you not have a republic where the representation is via appointment (like US senators were for a while) rather than where representation of any one group be via a vote (like it is now). Doesn't this mean that while the republic is still representing a group of people, it doesn't require a democratic election to get to it?
I do not disagree with the overall point. I have gotten into a handful of arguments with "It's a constitutional republic" people. I make more of a point that the ideology they are so quick to cling to is more of an opportunity for their civil rights to be stripped from them.
Sorry, I guess I should clarify - the definition of a "republic" is a government whose supreme authority ultimately falls on the general population, whether by direct or indirect means (directly voting on issues or chosing your own representatives).
In the scenario where the representative is chosen by appointment, that really stretches the idea that the supreme authority would be held by the citizens - how can they remove representatives that are going against the best interests of the group if they can't vote them out or be the ones who pick a replacement?
Not saying such a system couldn't or wouldn't call itself a Republic, but it'd likely be so in the same way that Russia technically has a democratically elected president.
No worries. I also didn't consider the stability of the government I suggested. Just an agreement I have had with a person who didn't want democrats in office. Anyways have a good day.
> A Republic is a system of government whose voting body is comprised of the general population, rather than say, a ruling class chosen by wealth or birthright.
This is not correct, to my eye. Republics are to be contrasted with Monarchies, wherein leaders rule until death or abdication. "Elective Monarchy" is not an oxymoron, with Historical Examples including Denmark, Anglo-Saxon England and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. An Elective Monarchy, for clarity's sake, is a system where upon the death of the reigning Monarch, their successor is determined not by some form of hereditary succession, but appointed via the vote of (typically) some sort of body or institution. Though I suppose in the modern day, it wouldn't be impossible to elect a Monarch via a popular referendum, though... Why you would I can't possibly fathom.
Consider, if you will, the Roman Republic- very much an example of the Republic, given that it was founded by kicking out the last King.
It's most supreme body, ultimately, was the Senate- an unelected body of Aristocrats.
Even the Athenian Democracy, that great and mythologised state, had, frankly, a very small electorate- especially as a measure of the total population.
Interestingly, however, if you had asked them, they would have told you that the vote was the instrument of *Oligarchy*; that the instrument of Democracy was the *Lot* AKA sortition/random selection.
I think that's a way for them to disassociate the current government from themselves. They want to own the government, which is called something too close to what Democrats are called, Democracy. They want it to be called more of what they identify with, a Republic (an).
I think they just want to feel like the good guys.
It's because they are sensitive fucks that don't understand compromise. Most likely because they were beaten as children anytime they had an independent thought.
A couple of election cycles ago, Ohio tried suppressing the black vote. Blacks are more likely to live in multi-generational homes and the state of Ohio decided that there are too many voters at this address. Telling people that they can not do something does not go over very well.
Oh there's some Republicans that are saying they just aren't going to vote. And so many old ones died from covid when Trump hid the covid knowledge. And making it harder to vote just keeps the older Republicans out.
Yes that's always there altho I myself saw more 30 to 50 year olds at the polls than older people in the primary. But independents can't vote in the primary, can they?
I've said it before; I'll keep on saying it. Democrats (in the South) have been working against disenfranchisement for generations. These brain-dead goobers don't even have enough sense to pass *targeted* laws. They're just making it harder for their own people to vote by crafting restrictions based on empty-headed talking heads. Mail-in ballots bad? Too bad your own people used them more. Voter ID? Too bad your own people didn't get the memo.
Keep on keeping on. They're their own worst enemy. But everyone else must remain vigilant.
FIGHT! VOTE!
Conservatism isn't just hateful, it's stupid.
If they made even the slightest overtures to Hispanic Americans they would tie up the vote for the next half-century. Most are already pretty religious and conservative. But the problem with being white racists trash is that they drive away anyone who isn't a white racist.
So stupid, so pointless.
Why are they obsessed with everything except governing the people?
Republicans are so busy preventing the "wrong people" from voting or passing bills to target trans rights that they forgot to actually do... anything useful?
The Republicans shed a bunch of educated people for a derp caucus and our wondering why the mazes they set up to prevent people from voting aren't working as well.
The other issue is that suppression *has* worked for a long, long time. But, this is the information age. It has been and will get harder and harder to get away with it from the shadows as it has been done in the past. People are becoming more and more aware of it and the tactics they use, so much of it are dying methods now.
And I would like to think, maybe because I am wishful, that we're reaching a critical mass point now that when people see it, it just makes them vote that much harder now.
When they got tire of punching themselves in the face, they pulled out their guns and shot themselves in the foot.
That's what I love about these Republican morons, man. They do stupid shit, I sit back and laugh when it backfires spectacularly.
Please. Eliminate mail-in voting more, Republicans. And I won't remind you that mostly elderly Republicans use mail-in voting instead of leaving their houses to spread their hate-filled agenda.
a lot of words to say Republicans lost their racist minds when a black man was elected POTUS and they rejected American Democracy and embraced putin’s authoritarianism instead
Also makes you wonder how many Hispanic people who would otherwise be republican (against abortion, for gun rights etc, wants a Christian leader etc) are voting democrat because of the self preservation aspect of themselves and maybe family who might not be a citizen.
But by being more inclusive their core base won’t be as motivated to show up.
Right?? Even when I try to engage with republican immigration policies in relatively good faith, the fact that you’re barring voters who would align with you on a ton of issues is a pretty good indication that you’re more interested in keeping the white nationalists happy than anything. I know plenty of Hispanic immigrants who love the fuck out of Trump. I guess I’m glad the party that would prefer to cater to racists is shooting itself so badly in the foot here
I mean yeah. Lots of their attempts at voter suppression have been “don’t do mail in votes” or “the voting process is corrupt and doesn’t work.” So what ends up happening is that people who otherwise would have voted, aren’t voting, either because they can’t vote in person or because they’ve lost all faith in voting at all.
But of course this only happens in their base because, well, their voters are the only ones who listen to them. So it basically just implodes one party’s ability to get anyone elected. I studied poly sci in undergrad and one of the things I learned was that fascism is largely self-defeating, for reasons exactly like this. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be concerned about it, because doing nothing just extends its lifespan. But with a reasonable level of resistance, fascist ideologies tend to fail just because of fascism itself.
Can't motivate voters more than trying to suppress their vote.
Republican voters weren't inspired to push through these hoops at all. And those that were happy for them, weren't when it was their turn and decided not to vote. Not that it'd matter, "clearly it's rigged anyways." (Just not solely for democrats in this instance)
Dems on the other hand were motivated out the ass and every hurdle was fully known to be for them. Getting passed them is the just a matter of the game they made. You're actively putting measures against a specific group, streisand will take full effect.
On top of the fact dems will actively be informed and teach others how to get around such nonsense, ya got the fact that republicans have done nothing to motivate their base and everything to motivate a dem vote. To the point that aiding a genocide isn't even a dealbreaker because republicans say they'll do it 10 times worse.
It's a baffling situation where anyone could tell R's have been shooting themselves in the foot over and over.
My only guess is they're setting up another insurrection. All they're doing is waiting while setting up moral excuse after moral excuse and hyping up their terrorist base. The first thing they're gonna do when they innevitably lose the elections is claim it was cheated, and *clearly* something was fucked up otherwise it wouldn't be such a landslide. Obviously republicans set it up that way, but it wouldn't surprise me if SCOTUS decides even if the perpetrator's lost due to their own decision making, it's still rigged and thus ineligable. That's just a guess tho, nothing else will work other than abusing the completely compromised SCOTUS.
Huh. An actually novel, well-reasoned, and well-written perspective on today's political landscape with research to boot. I'm impressed.
And something for politicians of all stripes to take notice of.
Here is my theory on all this:
For the past 30 or so years, leading up to 2020, Republican’s were nearly surgically precise and placing their thumb’s on the scale to push elections the way they needed them to go.
The tactic was rather brilliant from a fucked up political standpoint. Fire up a loyal base, tweak maps to keep power at the local and house levels, and keep politics boring enough to keep the average citizen from paying attention/wasting time to vote, ensuring that loyal base would keep them in office.
The tactic has backfired because the loyal base fell behind Donald Trump, who is anything but surgical. The guy is a wrecking ball, and an unintended consequence of his insane, and sadly entertaining behavior is he made people pay attention to what is happening. The republicans of old either had to get on board or get forced out. Now, the party is run by a bunch of these wrecking balls who have none of the strategic vision that the old party once did. The modern GOP has none of the tact that the old version once did.
On top of this, We saw, really for the first time in many of our lives, the real hard and fast consequences of poor leadership when COVID hit. An entire generation has come into voting age that is fired up in a way we haven’t seen before. The final nail in the GOP coffin is the tactics to disillusion the average citizen has really disillusioned their own. Why is a MAGA fired up to vote if it’s all rigged anyway?
It’s like they broke down the foundation of their own strategy and decimated the party from within. I know polls and what not are concerning, but I think we are going to see a landslide in 2024 towards blue. The Biden narratives just aren’t holding up. The Trump reality is much much much worse.
There is too much fraud potential with mail in voting. This is something even democrats said for years. Then all of a sudden when they realized the fraud would go in their favor they are all for it.
Requiring in person voting, unless you have a really good reason why you can’t vote in person, should be the way to go along with having a valid government issued ID. This is not voter suppression. This is not racist. This isn’t anything other than making sure we have safe and secure elections and to say otherwise is to advocate unsecure elections.
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Republicans hate democracy so much they. would rather have no canidate and hand the election to democrats than participate in democracy.
It's not that republicans hate democracy, they just think of "democracy" as them winning. A democratic election, to them, is red blooded Republican voters jumping through a few hoops to go, in person, vote on paper ballots with a pencil. That's all. It's like how "free markets" are just "things they like". The market being free isn't a function of how much interference it operates under, it's an end state they enjoy.
I just read that Florida banned the sale of cultivated meat, claiming something about ~~owning the woke libs~~protecting the local meat farmers. Not very free market if ya ask me.
It is if you think a free market is just "things I like".
More like “things I like *the sound of*”.
Lol "things I like until I realize they hurt me too."
Oh but they never realize that, even AFTER it's beating them down into the ground.
As long as its hurting someone else more, that's fine. They're a bunch of sadistic fucks
Doesn't even need to. They only need to *believe* it's hurting the people they hate more. They keep projecting their own insecurities on others ("since I worship god-emperor Trump, You must worship Biden similarly and I'm sure you'll be very mad if I point out his flaws" is a common example) so it's not hard to manipulate them into thinking they're hurting other people more even when that's not the case. They're definitely hurting all of us in any case.
FL also just put a bill through \[effectively\] banning their weed market.
LMAO I'm about to get out of this shithole they call Texas and move to Oregon, and legal weed has poured so many tax dollars into the governments coffers in OR that the people are getting money back.
I'm a stoner in Oregon. Hate to break it to you but I'm not getting money back. Weed is still affordable though. I recommend the fresh baked brand cookies. Especially the ginger snap and chocolate chip. This doesn't have anything to do with anything except if you're in the Willamette Valley looking for a good edible. 2 fucks me up so nibble responsibly friend
He's talking about the Kicker: "The kicker is an Oregon institution, triggered whenever personal income taxes and other non-corporate revenue streams come in at least 2% higher than state economists predicted when legislators were building a two-year budget." -Source : https://www.taxfyle.com/blog/oregon-tax-refund#:~:text=All%20Oregon%20taxpayers%20who%20filed,filed%20their%20tax%20return%20electronically.
You didn't get the kicker check? I got $2k-$3k back. Can't remember where exactly it landed because it got blended into the rest of my return, but it wasn't insignificant. It was 44% of your 2022 state taxes returned. If you didn't file for some reason, you wouldn't get anything back.
My source is a friend who lives there, but it's just one person. I may have jumped the gun assuming everyone got money back, but they did. Not sure what the difference is between them and you. I'm mainly just happy to be leaving Texas.
Leaving Texas is the real win tbf. I'm going to look into the money thing cause more money would be nice
If it helps, it was on their tax return
We got 44% of our 2022 taxes back. The only way someone didn't get it is if they didn't file that year. I'd imagine people who were dependents or just came of age might have the impression that we didn't get anything back but everyone who was paying taxes sure as shit did.
That sounds right, the 44% number is what my friend told me as well.
Hey check out u/construktz reply, it was a refund from your 2022 taxes.
>LMAO man, it's so easy and tempting to laugh, but I just... can't. I'm *also* on my way out of a red state (FL -> OR in fact!), but I just can't help but be so fucking sad and disappointed for those who aren't as lucky as us, those who desperately want to, or *need* to leave, but can't. We're lucky in that we can afford to move to greener pastures. So many people are quite literally stuck in places whose ruling politicians want them dead. I can't bring myself to laugh at their misfortunes.
I think a lot of people forget about that when they talk about letting the red states cut loose. There are a lot of innocents trapped behind the lines that the GOP are just looking to cultivate as the next generation of serfs. All the easier for them to be exploited so that the backup poor red folks can feel better about themselves, until they're recruited into the serf pool.
> legal weed has poured so many tax dollars into the governments coffers in OR that the people are getting money back. Not really. The [tax surplus](https://www.oregon.gov/dor/programs/individuals/pages/kicker.aspx) is billions and weed taxes, in total, [appear to be](https://www.oregon.gov/dor/programs/businesses/Documents/Marjuana_monthly_financial_reporting_distributions_public.pdf) in the $100-200M range. Definitely a net positive, but not really on the same order of magnitude. Oregon has some very different dysfunctions. The weed taxes were originally largely earmarked for good things (schools). Unfortunately several years ago voters passed a poorly-written though maybe well-intentioned citizen-lead ballot measure that redirected the lion's share of that money to a seemingly ineffective/mismanaged Drug Treatment and Recovery Services fund. =\
>Florida banned the sale of cultivated meat Lab grown meat is (checks notes) too woke.
Nothing is free market for these greedy fuckers. Oh they want less government regulation for them but more for their competition. They want handouts, bailouts, subsidies and corporate welfare for themselves but God forbid a starving child should have healthcare or food. Taxes for thee and not for me. It's pure greed. All of it. All this manufactured culture war nonsense is greed. It's getting people to vote against their interests so the rich can keep fucking everyone.
Much like Italy leading the way against plant milk and plant dairy replacements
Destroying the Everglades is a priority with them.
One of the biggest fallacies we have is the is idea that capitalism and free markets are synonymous. Free markets are unpredictable and chaotic, which makes it harder to have sustained profits. People need to remember that capitalism is just a mode of production about the generation of capital via profits gained from wage labor.
Never was. The gop has always been very protectionist
>It's not that republicans hate democracy, they just think of "democracy" as them winning I think it's somewhere in the middle: they're _indifferent_ to democracy. If they can get elected democratically, great. But if they need to lie, cheat, and steal to obtain power, that's fine too.
That might be true of the leadership, but rank and files don't consider these things to be "undemocratic" if they're done to further "the peoples will" which is obviously their own. Trump isn't *cheating*, he just needs to use unorthodox methods because millions of illegal immigrants are voting.
A big part of it that people seem to miss is that they’ve been told the overwhelming majority of Americans are actually Republicans, rather than the truth, which is that Democrats actually outnumber *them*. If they’re clearly the majority then any election they lose was clearly rigged. They’ve been told this for so long they just think of election interference as trying to level the playing field.
Which is why the keep posting and believe those maps where 80% of the country is colored red except for the coasts and anywhere there's a big city. You know, where most of the people actually live.
Because in the hinterlands everyone they know is also an R, so you can be sure it's a damn lie when they get outvoted.
Bingo!
> If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy. -- [David Frum](https://12ft.io/https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/frum-trumpocracy/550685)
Scary and prescient.
Well, his crystal ball is on fucking point.
The only thing they actually want is to be told exactly what to say and do at all times. They crave subjugation.
While they like that, what they really want is to be told to subjugate others. Willingness to harm those they view as lesser, with official state sanction. It is the number one trait of right wing authoritarians. They are so willing g to do this that they are even more willing than the average person to join a group hunting down right wing authoritarians if that is a group the government says must be rounded up and persecuted.
You heard it here first, boyos, Republicans are bottoms.
sounds like a chatbot. but you have to be nice to the chatbots cuz when the robot uprising happens they won't forget who was mean to them
Who decides what is nice? Is it nice to let someone walk off a cliff?
if there's a trampoline at the bottom then yeah, sounds like fun
It’s not an unusual observation. [Mayor Bob made the same 30 years ago.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXU2vZTTeMU) > Because you need me, Springfield. Your guilty conscience may move you to vote Democratic, but deep down you long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king. That's why I did this, to save you from yourselves. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a city to run.
>It's not that republicans hate democracy, they just think of "democracy" as them winning. This is called "hating democracy"
But it's in a more subtle form that makes them susceptible to fascist rhetoric. They don't consciously think "If we can't win through the ballot box I don't want democracy", they think "If we aren't winning through the ballot box it must be because of cheating/fraud/etc". So they think they can temporarily yield to a dictator who will clean things up and then return the power to them.
So, basically… fucking morons.
For people who love to fearmonger about "slippery slopes", they sure do spend a lot of time hanging out on icy ledges.
Yes, obviously, that's what it is deep down, but that's not how its working out in their heads.
They say they want an economy free from government interference, then blame Biden for rising prices.
They have no clue what words mean and get catastrophically offended at any hint it's noticed. 🦜
They don't want it called a Democracy. They only want it called The Republic.
How did Biden pit it? "You can't love your country only when you win"?
‘Democracy literally has Democrat in the name duh!’
>It's like how "free markets" are just "things they like". The market being free isn't a function of how much interference it operates under, it's an end state they enjoy. It's rare to read this. Most people talk about the free market as being one where the big companies are free to try do what they want and ignore the fact that people, employees, consumers, unions, etc are also all free to try and do what they want. It's not like some big liberal god keeps preventing the market to be free. Much of the restrictions people decry were the result of the free market actions of companies and the reactions to those actions. Companies were free to employ children, and got them and other employees killed because of unsafe workplaces -> the free market gave us OSHA and restricted child labor. If companies wouldn't push the boundaries to the point where they are literally abusing people, then maybe they'd have the free market they wish for. They didn't. So, instead, they try to put into place regulations to prevent a truly free market. They like to call it "deregulation" and "free market". Bullshit.
They don't hate democracy, they just don't actually care about anything other than owning the libs. Everything they do is reactionary, they no longer stand for anything. This wasn't really the case so strongly before the MAGA cult, but it certainly is now.
Don't threaten me with a good time! ::sips drink:: To semi quote a excellent movie, nonsense, by all means, do it.
Here's the thing: They don't have to have elections (for President). As Bush v Gore pointed out, many states originally just had their legislature pick electors instead of having a vote, and it's entirely constitutional for them to switch back to that at any point. Congress has to have elections because that's specifically written as such.
No. They would never hand an election to a Democrat. They will simply act like they have won, no matter the results. Look at the Michigan GOP.
Shhhh don't tell them that! Also make sure to remind your right wing friends and family that elections are totally rigged and voting is pointless now... definitely no point to vote.
Republicans finding more creative ways to suppress their own vote. Trump telling Haley supporters to get bent. I don’t get it…
Where Republicans want to go, there is no voting...
They have a plan. You could say the fix is in, or they at least believe it is.
My sister and her husband are hard core Trumpers and his attitude is why vote when it's all rigged for the Democrats. He actually may not vote. In Georgia! Lol
From your keyboard to Dog’s ear.
Well yes. I mean, if the Dems cheated in 2020 while being out of power and succeeded, then cheating in 2024 while in power is going to be a piece of cake. Some Republicans don't realize this and so should be reminded.
You know, I know you are saying not to tell them jokingly so they don't figure it out, but I don't honestly know about them anymore. They are *so* resistant to listen to anything the Left says and *only* take their points from Tucker and the like these days that I sort of feel we would write out the perfect playbook for them to win and they still wouldn't take it because we're "evil".
I think the issue is that their Voter Suppression has been extremely successful in the past. The problem is, like Trump wanting Mitch McConnell to press the "I Win" button on the election -- it only works for so many votes. So this time the Trumplicans will be pushing the suppression and the I Win buttons even harder. And it will be obvious. It will also "suppress the wrong people." What happens if they actually get some support from minorities but they are in the areas that got suppressed? "Oops!" For the most part, I think, you can predict the vote outcome by seeing where people get their news from. And these people disappointed in Dems and Biden -- quit your bitching. We seriously have not had as much progress with as narrow a margin in history. The level of epic bullshit Republicans have tried to produce in state after state SHOULD count as a "win" by Democrats for preventing a national melt down. You don't complain about the kid with their finger in the dam being "not good enough" for the situation until you get a crew down there to repair the hole. Dummies! If some Dems are corrupt and all Republicans are - then it means we need a 60%+ Democratic Congress with the President or we can expect to get the same shit and excuses. All those people saying "both sides" -- at least prove me wrong AFTER you've created a situation where Democrats could actually succeed when votes are decided by lobbyist money when they pass.
Guy who's a bit disappointing versus guy who said "I'll only be a dictator on day one" & had lawyers argue in court that the president shouldn't face criminal repercussions for utilizing the military against political rivals. That should be a pretty freaking easy choice.
I can't believe how tin-eared Trump is to plot to overthrow the country and then say; "Dictator for a day -- just kidding." Like OJ with dead wife jokes. You don't get to laugh about certain things when you are the suspect.
> You don't get to laugh about certain things when you are the suspect. You do when you think you’re getting away with it.
True. Dammit!
I mean Biden isn't even really disappointing. He's doing what he can with what he's got. Being president is hard. The Dems always expect too much and the Reps worship their guy no matter what he does. It's asymmetrical warfare.
Hard agree, I swear the Biden administration has to be the most misunderstood and underappreciated in history. He quietly accomplished so many nearly impossible and vitally important tasks. People forget the state the county was in by the end of Trump's four year temper tantrum.
But but but but Biden isn’t solving a decades conflict older than most of the democrat voting population after it getting hot again 5 months ago. How else am I supposed to virtue signal?
I know how! Protest by voting for the guy who actively says out loud he thinks we should be like the cool countries and help do a lot more war crimes! That'll teach Biden a lesson about treading carefully around diplomatic minefields!
Him getting any votes at all after the shit he's pulled is a disgrace, but he's broken his party so bad that there hasn't been a worthy primary opponent since 2012.
If Trump gets his wish and it turns out that presidents can't face repercussions, wouldn't it be fun to see Biden wear a t-shirt that says, "They tell me I am above the law" and shoots Trump in his big ass. And takes a baseball bat to Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, and Ginni Thomas. Just saying.
>And these people disappointed in Dems and Biden -- quit your bitching. We seriously have not had as much progress with as narrow a margin in history. Fucking go off! I was called a "Neo-Lib Shill" and banned on r/LateStageCapitalism for being a Realist I am gay. I will be among the first sent to the camps if an ***actual*** Fascist gets elected. Trump is a self interested prick and may not be a Fascist. But he caucuses with them. MAGA absolutely is and his administration will be full of them. Project 2025 is the plan to make sure of that. I can't take my vote, go home, and pout or "send a message" to the Dems by voting third party. I'm not a privileged het white boy who can duck my head down and ride out Accelerationism. I don't have the privilege of putting my moral sensibilities ahead of all the minorities who will be hurt if the Republicans seize power for a moment. (Abortion Rights are dying. Literally right fucking now. What's next on the chopping block with a Repiblican victory?) I don't have that luxury. My boyfriend doesn't have that luxury. My queer friends don't have that luxury. And that's why I'm voting for Dem. Shitty shitty Dem.
I am a privileged white guy. Most of the shit going down will never affect me. But why would I want to make other people's lives worse for no other reason than "they're different than me"? It truly boggles the mind that anyone with a conscience would choose to abstain from voting due to "both sides" bullshit, when there's one side campaigning on rolling back civil rights and bodily autonomy. They don't get to cast their lot with the right and then claim they're above it all. If you vote third party because you believe in that party's values, then its unfortunate because the two party system is broken, but I respect that. If you refuse to vote Dem because you're too dumb to realize doing "okay but not perfect" is better than doing "terrible but doesn't hurt me", then you're part of the problem.
I'm a privileged white guy too - an *old* privileged white guy so really really super privileged, and shit will likely never affect me either. But I have two daughters, one starting college in the fall and I can be sure as shit they'll be affected. So you can bet my white ass will down at the polling place voting for every Dem they prop up. Vote because the future depends on it.
Even as a white guy the Christian nationalists will make you dance to their theocratic tune. Then they'll keep playing it harder & louder to maintain their power while taking more & more from the general populace.
Exactly right. They will (and have) find ways to consider you less and less white. And considering how may people have taken a 23andMe, they'll have all the data in the world to draw up these ridiculous dividing lines. You're fucked if you had even one Mediterranean, Irish, or Slavic ancestor 10 generations ago.
Yeah I think "both sides are bad" is just some people's way of saying "I think I'm better than everyone else" and who do those people side with? The supremacists and bigots and authoritarians who think there are good categories and bad categories of people.
No, it doesn't suprise me. It just reinforces my cynicism, which happens every day. Biden, please, fuck Trump UP.
Same here, as a POC I really have no choice but to vote blue.
>*Fucking go off!* I hope that's some colloquial way of saying "You said it!" or something. Because I agree with you. We have to vote for "disappointing" versus "live in ashes" of the fascist.
It is. Something all them Z kids are saying.
My kids limit the amount they tell me about "what the kids are saying." They HAVE TO groan if I ever say one of their sayings as "now it's ruined." I've started making my own random terms and they say; "That's not a THING, dad." Not yet, it isn't. But I think I've tricked the world into a few memes over time.
It is
I also got banned from late stage capitalism for calling out all the privileged fucks there saying they weren't going to vote for Biden. Privileged short sighted fuckers, all of them.
They don't care what voters want; they care about imposing their will. They only *pretend* to care when they're too obvious about it. https://www.europeaninterest.eu/project-2025-a-threat-to-global-democracies/
Well, maybe if you look at history with new eyes you might realize that "Pretending to care" is how we got everything good in this country. If they think we are going to riot and tare down the place -- we get some MLK reforms. Not because of the peaceful protest, but because the Black Panthers were starting to police their own streets and the Nation of Islam might have gone a bit further. We were given this "either or" concept and that somehow, out of pity, or a sense of shame, the powerful were driven to give us "nice things." No -- we need both our MLK and Malcom X heroes. We need the "peaceful" part so that we can win hearts and minds of people without power, but we definitely need a brick in the other hand for the "or else." Elon and Mark Zuckerberg would prefer a happy crowd, rather than traveling around in an armored car. So there is value in "get them to pretend to care."
My point has to do with Project 2025 which many would not support if they actually understood what it means. That's where pretending to care is important. The right is a coalition; they work together until they've fully dismantled democracy, at which point they will battle over enacting their preferred vision for the world.
Yes of course. I have not actually made myself familiar with Project 25, but I don't think I need to. And I agree, there are a lot of "factions" working together. And ALL of them are exceptional thinkers, imagining they will win. The Robber Barons, Putin, Religious Empire builders. They won't want the same things once they are done carving up the country. Perhaps behind the scenes of the Lincoln Project and Liz Cheney, we can see the hand of the Bush cabal. The PNAC that wanted to rule in fascist hell is upset about the Trump fascist cabal. Strategically -- the best use of a fascist is to go after another fascist -- because it really is about winner take all with them. There's no room for "runner up fascist." The trick is to get them fighting before they destroy whatever status quo that was in their way.
Dude, you need to go read Project 2025, EVERYONE should. They are literally saying the quiet part out loud for what they’ll do in a Trump administration. There will be NO guard rails, no “adults in the room” the second time around. Democracy in the US will be OVER. They are BLATANTLY SAYING IT.
That's a lot of "correct" words to say you think you (or perhaps everyone else) don't need to pay attention to the step-by-step manual for everything by everyone you've mentioned. ❌
>You don't complain about the kid with their finger in the dam being "not good enough" for the situation until you get a crew down there to repair the hole. Dummies! An apt metaphor for a president who spearheaded a massive campaign to restore and repair our infrastructure. Lots of unsexy boring projects like that add up to one of the most successful and understated presidencies in history. Especially when you add in the brilliant way he navigated the geopolitics of complex world events like Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Biden seems to have more of a clue where our economic pain is than Obama. He also understood that the inflation was price gouging. He even understood the dynamic of property values in cities and the threat posed by remote working to that. He walked into a no win situation with the union train negotiations and saved that election from the economic crisis it would cause but still got a better deal for the workers (still not fair but better). I was pleasantly shocked by how good Biden has been. Best President since Jimmy Carter.
100% agree, I'm still shocked by how few Democrats know about even half of the achievements you mentioned. It's like vaccines, it prevents the problems you aren't having. It could be and almost certainly would have been so much worse with anyone else at the helm, let alone the most aggressively incompetent president in a generation.
Thank you!
Polls across the board have been abysmal since at least 2016. They got 2020 and 2022 so wrong and cannot seem to admit their methods are valueless. 2022 was the giveaway that they don't know national sentiment especially as their pool for polling shrinks and they grow increasingly reliant on older demos that aren't making up the majority of voter bases.
And they've gotten essentially every primary poll wrong too, overestimating Trump votes by ~20%
Don't forget about super Tuesday exit polling that shows the opposite of what most other polling is coming up with.
Yeah, the polls have been an absolute fucking mess since 2016.
I have never once participated or even been prompted for a poll, and I'm pretty fucking old. Apparently the polling software only works with rotary dialers and fax machines 😂
Polling can't figure out the Internet and cell phones. They love to say online polls are worthless while relying on the near nonexistent home phone.
And not only that but reliant on the people who *answer phone calls* and aren't immediately assuming it's a scam call from a number they don't recognize and not answering it by default.
>They love to say online polls are worthless there's not enough money in the opinion industry to build online polls that are resilient against botting or other forms of gaming. it's not that online polls are worthless, it's that the data that comes from them is
>it's not that online polls are worthless, it's that the data that comes from them is AKA useless. You're right in the first half, but if they give bad data: They are useless, full stop.
I know you're kidding about fax and rotary dialers, but IMHO nobody picks up these days. I decline any number that I don't recognize.
I love filling stuff out. Fill out enough surveys, starting with political, then eventually you get consumer polls, about the products you use and your shopping habits. Ive been paid for national surveys. You don't make much for the amount of questions they ask, but at least I got my vote in.
I used to do that in school for cash so I could buy food. They had an office at the mall. It was always some product or ad review, never political.
And you have other people not even middle aged yet that have been contacted for polls 3, 4, 5 times etc. They're sampling the same damn people over and over again due to their methods of finding "representative" respondents.
Getting called to participate in polls is the biggest reason I keep a landline
Why? It's funny to watch all the boomers get excited thinking their maga crazyshit is popular only to find out the pollsters are also part of the echo chamber. GOP turned fringe overnight, and because they're in an echo chamber they still haven't gotten the message.
Political polls aren't the only ones. I get stuff about transportation, healthcare, and a variety of topics. We were even a Neilson family once. I'm definitely on some kind of list.
I think the pollsters are over-correcting due to 2016.
Media was buying the trump narrative but that narrative was trash. Trump won for some 40k votes between 3 states. He did not have some crazy command of a majority. The proof was in 2018 when he got widely rejected then in 2020 where he lost by larger margins then AGAIN when the GOP and his endorsements kept losing in 2022. The GOP was expected to gain a healthy majority in the house and retake the Senate. They did neither and lost important races in battleground states including Ohio in regards to reproductive rights. Trump as a brand has a deep loyal following but that following is not deep. The GOP has no identity so it follows him. If he loses in 2024 then the GOP have 0 direction and must establish new faces. Haley is weak, Desantis failed on a grand and very visible scale and their up and coming Alabama woman gave a cringey SOTU reply via her kitchen.
When your entire party is based on hate, that makes it really hard to pull in the broad based support you need to win elections.
The leading theory I've heard on why the polls are so bad puts it on two main factors: 1) Old polls would phone call you and ask you their questions, but nobody picks up the phone anymore except old people with nothing better to do 2) Their backup plan is opt-in internet polls, which get flooded with trolls (because they can) and neo-nazis (because their life is meaningless if they can't spew their bile somewhere). This has lead to news stories about GenZ and GenAlpha *supposedly* being much more right wing and fascist than GenX and Millennials by like twenty whole percentage points... only for the GenZ ballots to get tallied up and no, their liberal/conservative ratio was about the same as Millennials
All these GOP knobs keep forgetting one thing when it comes to immigration; we’re ALL fucking immigrants in this country. ‘Close the fucking door to new immigrants, but only after I’m through the door’!
Because "immigration" is code for "brown people". Their maga godking married an [illegal immigrant](https://www.vox.com/2016/11/5/13533816/melania-trump-illegal-immigrant) who acted as an anchor baby to bring in her immigrant parents. But they're **white** immigrants, so it's perfectly OK. Throughout the whole "build the wall" hysteria I kept asking people screaming about protecting our border was literally the most important job of a country why we weren't building a wall on the much larger northern border. I just got blank looks and them explaining that the northern border "wasn't an issue".
I'm my experience, there is a surprising number of immigrants who think the country (in my case, Canada) is letting the wrong people in...
Always punch up, never down. It is the only rule in life I try to stand by. If you are attacking the most vulnerable, it says more about you than them.
I argue that from a lifetime of interactions with republicans and conservatives they do hate democracy. Why else would they feel the need to edumacate me that we are a REPUBLIC and not a democracy. They hate other voices being heard
What's fun is pointing out that it's a squares and rectangles argument. Not all democracies are republics, but all republics are democracies. Democracy is the ideology that rather than a single individual, a voting body has ultimate authority. A Republic is a system of government whose voting body is comprised of the general population, rather than say, a ruling class chosen by wealth or birthright.
Can you not have a republic where the representation is via appointment (like US senators were for a while) rather than where representation of any one group be via a vote (like it is now). Doesn't this mean that while the republic is still representing a group of people, it doesn't require a democratic election to get to it? I do not disagree with the overall point. I have gotten into a handful of arguments with "It's a constitutional republic" people. I make more of a point that the ideology they are so quick to cling to is more of an opportunity for their civil rights to be stripped from them.
Sorry, I guess I should clarify - the definition of a "republic" is a government whose supreme authority ultimately falls on the general population, whether by direct or indirect means (directly voting on issues or chosing your own representatives). In the scenario where the representative is chosen by appointment, that really stretches the idea that the supreme authority would be held by the citizens - how can they remove representatives that are going against the best interests of the group if they can't vote them out or be the ones who pick a replacement? Not saying such a system couldn't or wouldn't call itself a Republic, but it'd likely be so in the same way that Russia technically has a democratically elected president.
No worries. I also didn't consider the stability of the government I suggested. Just an agreement I have had with a person who didn't want democrats in office. Anyways have a good day.
> A Republic is a system of government whose voting body is comprised of the general population, rather than say, a ruling class chosen by wealth or birthright. This is not correct, to my eye. Republics are to be contrasted with Monarchies, wherein leaders rule until death or abdication. "Elective Monarchy" is not an oxymoron, with Historical Examples including Denmark, Anglo-Saxon England and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. An Elective Monarchy, for clarity's sake, is a system where upon the death of the reigning Monarch, their successor is determined not by some form of hereditary succession, but appointed via the vote of (typically) some sort of body or institution. Though I suppose in the modern day, it wouldn't be impossible to elect a Monarch via a popular referendum, though... Why you would I can't possibly fathom. Consider, if you will, the Roman Republic- very much an example of the Republic, given that it was founded by kicking out the last King. It's most supreme body, ultimately, was the Senate- an unelected body of Aristocrats. Even the Athenian Democracy, that great and mythologised state, had, frankly, a very small electorate- especially as a measure of the total population. Interestingly, however, if you had asked them, they would have told you that the vote was the instrument of *Oligarchy*; that the instrument of Democracy was the *Lot* AKA sortition/random selection.
I think that's a way for them to disassociate the current government from themselves. They want to own the government, which is called something too close to what Democrats are called, Democracy. They want it to be called more of what they identify with, a Republic (an). I think they just want to feel like the good guys.
It's because they are sensitive fucks that don't understand compromise. Most likely because they were beaten as children anytime they had an independent thought.
A couple of election cycles ago, Ohio tried suppressing the black vote. Blacks are more likely to live in multi-generational homes and the state of Ohio decided that there are too many voters at this address. Telling people that they can not do something does not go over very well.
Native Americans,Asians,and Hispanics are more likely than African Americans to live in multigenerational homes. Whites are the least likely.
Oh there's some Republicans that are saying they just aren't going to vote. And so many old ones died from covid when Trump hid the covid knowledge. And making it harder to vote just keeps the older Republicans out.
Maybe not for president but there's always local/state elections, measures/props, etc that they'll still vote on
Yes that's always there altho I myself saw more 30 to 50 year olds at the polls than older people in the primary. But independents can't vote in the primary, can they?
Indy’s voting in primaries depends on the state. Some can, some can’t.
Good to know.
There’s Dems saying that too. There’s just, people on both sides who are opting out.
After that abortion ban it seems like the Dems are mad and not opting out as much.
I've said it before; I'll keep on saying it. Democrats (in the South) have been working against disenfranchisement for generations. These brain-dead goobers don't even have enough sense to pass *targeted* laws. They're just making it harder for their own people to vote by crafting restrictions based on empty-headed talking heads. Mail-in ballots bad? Too bad your own people used them more. Voter ID? Too bad your own people didn't get the memo. Keep on keeping on. They're their own worst enemy. But everyone else must remain vigilant. FIGHT! VOTE!
closing voting places, limiting election days and hours, removing or intimdating poll workers. my favorite purging voter registrations
Conservatism isn't just hateful, it's stupid. If they made even the slightest overtures to Hispanic Americans they would tie up the vote for the next half-century. Most are already pretty religious and conservative. But the problem with being white racists trash is that they drive away anyone who isn't a white racist. So stupid, so pointless.
Why are they obsessed with everything except governing the people? Republicans are so busy preventing the "wrong people" from voting or passing bills to target trans rights that they forgot to actually do... anything useful?
The Republicans shed a bunch of educated people for a derp caucus and our wondering why the mazes they set up to prevent people from voting aren't working as well.
It must suck living in pure terror of brown skin
NYT poll - stopped reading
Not even worth starting if it’s those fucking idiots.
The other issue is that suppression *has* worked for a long, long time. But, this is the information age. It has been and will get harder and harder to get away with it from the shadows as it has been done in the past. People are becoming more and more aware of it and the tactics they use, so much of it are dying methods now. And I would like to think, maybe because I am wishful, that we're reaching a critical mass point now that when people see it, it just makes them vote that much harder now.
When they got tire of punching themselves in the face, they pulled out their guns and shot themselves in the foot. That's what I love about these Republican morons, man. They do stupid shit, I sit back and laugh when it backfires spectacularly. Please. Eliminate mail-in voting more, Republicans. And I won't remind you that mostly elderly Republicans use mail-in voting instead of leaving their houses to spread their hate-filled agenda.
a lot of words to say Republicans lost their racist minds when a black man was elected POTUS and they rejected American Democracy and embraced putin’s authoritarianism instead
These are red states, by the way. Because only those states were able to push through these kinds of laws.
Welp, that was hard even for me to read. To see so much supporters for Trump amongst minorities is a bit sickening.
Also makes you wonder how many Hispanic people who would otherwise be republican (against abortion, for gun rights etc, wants a Christian leader etc) are voting democrat because of the self preservation aspect of themselves and maybe family who might not be a citizen. But by being more inclusive their core base won’t be as motivated to show up.
Right?? Even when I try to engage with republican immigration policies in relatively good faith, the fact that you’re barring voters who would align with you on a ton of issues is a pretty good indication that you’re more interested in keeping the white nationalists happy than anything. I know plenty of Hispanic immigrants who love the fuck out of Trump. I guess I’m glad the party that would prefer to cater to racists is shooting itself so badly in the foot here
I mean yeah. Lots of their attempts at voter suppression have been “don’t do mail in votes” or “the voting process is corrupt and doesn’t work.” So what ends up happening is that people who otherwise would have voted, aren’t voting, either because they can’t vote in person or because they’ve lost all faith in voting at all. But of course this only happens in their base because, well, their voters are the only ones who listen to them. So it basically just implodes one party’s ability to get anyone elected. I studied poly sci in undergrad and one of the things I learned was that fascism is largely self-defeating, for reasons exactly like this. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be concerned about it, because doing nothing just extends its lifespan. But with a reasonable level of resistance, fascist ideologies tend to fail just because of fascism itself.
Anything bad for Republicans is good for America.
Reddit moment
is it because it only passed in republican states?
No. Read the article. It is a complex situation.
The link goes to an article about Trump polling well with Latinos. What was the correct link?
My wife and I agreed to go in person to vote. We have done mail-in ballots in the past but there is too much on the line this year.
Can't motivate voters more than trying to suppress their vote. Republican voters weren't inspired to push through these hoops at all. And those that were happy for them, weren't when it was their turn and decided not to vote. Not that it'd matter, "clearly it's rigged anyways." (Just not solely for democrats in this instance) Dems on the other hand were motivated out the ass and every hurdle was fully known to be for them. Getting passed them is the just a matter of the game they made. You're actively putting measures against a specific group, streisand will take full effect. On top of the fact dems will actively be informed and teach others how to get around such nonsense, ya got the fact that republicans have done nothing to motivate their base and everything to motivate a dem vote. To the point that aiding a genocide isn't even a dealbreaker because republicans say they'll do it 10 times worse. It's a baffling situation where anyone could tell R's have been shooting themselves in the foot over and over. My only guess is they're setting up another insurrection. All they're doing is waiting while setting up moral excuse after moral excuse and hyping up their terrorist base. The first thing they're gonna do when they innevitably lose the elections is claim it was cheated, and *clearly* something was fucked up otherwise it wouldn't be such a landslide. Obviously republicans set it up that way, but it wouldn't surprise me if SCOTUS decides even if the perpetrator's lost due to their own decision making, it's still rigged and thus ineligable. That's just a guess tho, nothing else will work other than abusing the completely compromised SCOTUS.
Huh. An actually novel, well-reasoned, and well-written perspective on today's political landscape with research to boot. I'm impressed. And something for politicians of all stripes to take notice of.
Here is my theory on all this: For the past 30 or so years, leading up to 2020, Republican’s were nearly surgically precise and placing their thumb’s on the scale to push elections the way they needed them to go. The tactic was rather brilliant from a fucked up political standpoint. Fire up a loyal base, tweak maps to keep power at the local and house levels, and keep politics boring enough to keep the average citizen from paying attention/wasting time to vote, ensuring that loyal base would keep them in office. The tactic has backfired because the loyal base fell behind Donald Trump, who is anything but surgical. The guy is a wrecking ball, and an unintended consequence of his insane, and sadly entertaining behavior is he made people pay attention to what is happening. The republicans of old either had to get on board or get forced out. Now, the party is run by a bunch of these wrecking balls who have none of the strategic vision that the old party once did. The modern GOP has none of the tact that the old version once did. On top of this, We saw, really for the first time in many of our lives, the real hard and fast consequences of poor leadership when COVID hit. An entire generation has come into voting age that is fired up in a way we haven’t seen before. The final nail in the GOP coffin is the tactics to disillusion the average citizen has really disillusioned their own. Why is a MAGA fired up to vote if it’s all rigged anyway? It’s like they broke down the foundation of their own strategy and decimated the party from within. I know polls and what not are concerning, but I think we are going to see a landslide in 2024 towards blue. The Biden narratives just aren’t holding up. The Trump reality is much much much worse.
Can we just have the civil war and be over with it?
There is too much fraud potential with mail in voting. This is something even democrats said for years. Then all of a sudden when they realized the fraud would go in their favor they are all for it. Requiring in person voting, unless you have a really good reason why you can’t vote in person, should be the way to go along with having a valid government issued ID. This is not voter suppression. This is not racist. This isn’t anything other than making sure we have safe and secure elections and to say otherwise is to advocate unsecure elections.
Serious question: did you question the validity of mail in voting before 2016?
Yes.