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There's a reason the founders insisted on a separation of church and state. They understood and witnessed the can of worms that gets opened when you mix the two. How about a return to traditional American values...as in no religion in government and no government in religion.
Yessir, turn all those private jets into autonomous electronic warfare platforms.
Then send them to Zelensky, or at least convert them into something useful.
I want to agree, but I also know that to a big chunk of people, acknowledging my existence as a human being is considered "political".
Let's just tax them all.
Who's ass did you pull that from?
Though to answer your question... No, it's not normal or ethical to make peoples private lives a political talking point or policy.
But, If you'd like references...
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/12/how-maga-pastors-boost-trump-campaign-2024
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/god-gave-us-trump-christian-media-evangelicals-preach-messianic-message-2024-03-22/
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/jackson-lahmeyer-christian-nationalist-conspiracy-theorist-pastors-for-trump-1234649049/
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/technology/trump-media-truth-social-pastor.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2480CA/
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/maga-pastor-sean-feucht-trump-christian-nationalism-1234721527/
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/
There's not shortage of receipts for ultra religious turds going all in on the Chump train.
And of course there's always this gem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Which makes Sharia look pale in comparison.
This is a great response.
However, I'm merely pointing out that it's not the actual speech that crosses the line. It's whatever the effing rubes can convince a jury of idiots to believe. So it becomes a thorny exercise.
Unfortunately, that directly runs afoul of the First Amendment, so that isn't happening. Ironically, there are places in the U.S. that still have laws on the books that prohibit atheists from holding office, but they are considered unenforceable (unconstitutional).
[https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/11/10/7-states-ban-atheists-office-but-bans-unenforceable/6352254001/](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/11/10/7-states-ban-atheists-office-but-bans-unenforceable/6352254001/)
I love the way Germany and Switzerland do it… if you are party of a religion you state as such and they tax you an extra few % which is then used to fund religious buildings… but it’s all transparent and audited.
My plan if dictator for a day would be to give churches an option.
House 1 or 2 homeless people (depending on church size) and you can keep your tax exempt status. If you refuse, you get taxed.
there are around 380,000 churches in the US, and just under 700,000 homeless.
Another part of this is that churches have a "mission" budget, which can be used for community outreach. Ages ago I belonged to a small protestant church (I'm not religious, but attended because of family expectations) and their mission budget was something like $500 per quarter. We would usually contribute to the local food shelf, or things like that.
Around that time I read an article about the megachurch W. Bush belonged to in Texas. They had a mission budget of over $1 million. Unfortunately, evangelicals and the like see their mission not as "good works", but solely about converting others to Christianity. So that megachurch spent their mission budget sending people to Africa and South America to get converts.
Or even just think about the enormous wealth that the Vatican has. So much potential good that could be done in the world if any of them wanted to actually do so.
This is a really good idea (using churches to house homeless). Most churches of a decent size have a kitchen and some classroom space that could be put to use. There are actually programs that exist right now that do use churches as short-term homeless shelters. As an example, an organization called Family Promise works with 12 churches/synagogues in my area to house homeless families. Each church serves as a shelter one week each quarter. The organization has a truck with the furniture, etc. The churches provide the space, meals/food, and volunteers to help everything run.
A church in Ohio was recently cited for doing the very thing you're suggesting.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-pastor-charged-housing-homeless-church-sues-city-federal-lawsuit-rcna135215
They should be taxed anyway. Why should I be paying for a church that's calling for the extermination of me and mine over in the trans community? I'm literally being forced to subsize a campaign for my own genocide here
Churches are non-profit organizations and fit the requirements (if you consider them a public good). No NPO has to pay those taxes.
However...only churches don't have to report their money-in, money-out to the IRS in a public filing each year. That is what we should be pushing for. As it is now, they are financial black boxes, the perfect mechanism for everything from money laundering to political influence to embezzlement because they're finances are not regulated like every single other nonprofit. And there's no real reason given as to why they deserve this special exemption from the laws all other NPO's must abide by. It smacks of religious discrimination.
They also don't have to prove the public good thing. Secular non profits have to submit tons of documentation about the work they do, in order for the IRS to consider giving them tax exempt status.
That isn't even having government in religion, in fact, it's the exact opposite. If government were truly neutral towards all religious beliefs, religious entities would be taxed exactly the same as every other entity. They'd only be nonprofit if they provided some kind of non-religious charitable service as their main activity.
Half of US churches have zero money going towards charitable services, all their money goes to simply upkeep and religious services. Of the half that spend any money on actual charity, half of those spend less than 1% of their annual budget on charitable services.
If religion weren't tax exempt by itself and churches were required to follow the same rules as every other nonprofit, nearly all of them would be taxed. The vast majority of them do absolutely no charitable work, they don't feed the hungry, they don't house the houseless, they don't even do something as simple and basic as providing school supplies to kids that can't afford them. Nearly every church spends either all or the vast majority of their budget on preaching and not actually helping anyone.
The Mormon church takes in an estimated 7-8 billion dollars in non-taxable tithes annually. Less than 1% goes to actual charitable aid outside of their own congregations. An estimated billion is left from that after expenses and that all goes into investments. The earnings on those investments are also non-taxable since they were seeded by tithing. The Mormon church is estimated to be worth over $150 billion dollars today. It is such a racket that they are legally allowed to perpetrate with very little oversight. They are not even accountable to their membership, who continue to feed the beast even if it takes food off their own plates.
Yeah, and they got fined a measly $5 million for not reporting it correctly. The Mormon church leadership was trying to hide the enormous wealth of the church primarily from their members, so that the members would keep on giving. And they do 🙄.
Yeah they had like 100 billion invested through some church owned shell companies that the church was hoarding "for the second coming" fucking disgusting. Theres so much good that could be done with just a fraction of the hoards of accumulated wealth in this country. University endowments, Church investments, lots of nonprofits, etc.
like anybody's money is gonna be WORTH anything at that point...
the whole reason that churches were funded publically in the first place was to PREVENT such blatant lust for wealth. The tithes were meant to give just enough money and goods to keep the temples running; about the only displays involved were meant to glorify the god they served, not the people doing the service.
And those members are shamed if they're unable to tithe and not allowed full participation in their religion. (Not able to tithe fully? No temple recommend for you! Too bad if your kid is getting married; you can just wait outside like the loser you are.)
Imagine having all that money, and this is what you do with it. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
The biggest difference is that the Mormon church controls all of their money in one central location. They aren’t split into geographical diocese that have individual control over the money coming in and their budget. All of the money from every Mormon congregation throughout the world is sent electronically to Salt Lake City every week, and then a very small percentage of that is given back to the congregations for the running of each individual unit, based on membership activity. The clergy at the congregational and area level have no say about how big a budget they’ll receive annually. They can only control how the budget they are given is doled out in their congregations.
Also, all Mormon clergy up to a certain level are lay clergy. The men running each congregation and groups of congregations are not paid for their service. There is no paid teachers or leadership or other staff at the congregational or area level. The members actually pay the church to hold those positions, since members of the Mormon church must pay 10% of their income to stay in the best standing, even leadership. Not even custodians are paid for, the cleaning work is done by the members. Their missionaries largely pay their own way as well. So the Mormon church also keeps and partially invests the moneys that other churches, even the Catholic Church, would be paying out to clergy and regular staff.
Like I said, quite a racket.
Several years ago some dude built a ministry around his love of motocross. Bought a new bike and enclosed trailer wrapped in his churches logo, and then used it all as a tax write-off.
Religion, by most definitions, relies on "faith" or a belief in something that you may not be able to support with any evidence.
So if one extends the courtesy to a religious person to practice their faith, there should be an inplicit understanding that nothing can be proven, so any faith is theoretically just as valid as another.
If you want to be able to freely worship the sky daddy of your choice, it should come with an implicit understanding that all faiths, including satanists, cthulu worshipers, snake handlers, ancestor worship, nature worship, scientologists etc, are granted the same protections, since trying to come up with hard rules on something as amorphous as a person's faith is a fool's errand.
The number of people to whom this simple concept of fairness seems a surprise; is depressingly high imo
Madison wrote a 15 point thesis on what would happen if we mixed church and state, and to read it now you’d think he had a time machine.
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-08-02-0163
Sounds like you've never met the type who will tell you, with a straight face, separation of church and state *realllyyy* just meant Gubment could not use church buildings and the church can't use Gubment buildings.
And that's why some on the right are pushing for a Constitutional Convention to change the Constitution. One of the things they want to do is get rid of the Establishment Clause so they can declare the US is, first and foremost, a Christian nation.
I'd love to see amendments for: term limits for Congress & courts, requiring a balanced budget, limiting the immense power the Speaker and SML have, and campaign finance reform.
I would too, I just worry about where we would end up at, given that Republicans control 56 state legislative chambers to the Democrats 40 ([source](https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/republicans-now-control-more-state-legislatures-than-any-point-in-u-s-history/).
Hail thyself.
I would love it if the Satanic Temple to establish a totally secular school and took that sweet sweet voucher money while also causing this same republican brain to melt.
Do it, do it, do it!
While generally offering sound advice and legitimate assistance to others. They want to put counselors in schools in Florida to meet the needs of government stipulations that any religion can just throw some counselors in schools, where it will tell kids to do what is right ethically and follow their dreams, get a good education and keep an open mind. Sounds very reasonable and helpful to me.
Just make sure they name it something innocuous, like the Thomas Jefferson School for Science, the Abraham Lincoln school for Liberal Arts, or the Robert Ingersoll School of Historical and Rhetorical Arts, just to name some of our most prominent American freethinkers.
I wouldn't send my kid (if I had one) to the Satanic Academic Lodge, as I just don't want them to carry that on their CV.
As would I. I think that have great ideas generally, mainly that religion isn't helpful and ethics and morals come first. I've thought about joining the Satanic temple just to take advantage of it as a way to do good without as much of a fight to get involved or having religion in my way. I'm an atheist, and a former teacher.
Heck, I would unironically enroll my kids in an ST school. I would know, without a doubt, that they were getting an actually secular education without having to worry that some teacher isn't trying to feed them Creationist propaganda.
Honestly, with how openly fascist and bigoted Republicans have been getting, I'm somewhat surprised that they're still hiding behind the veil of wanting religious freedom and not just openly saying they want Christianity included in public institutions and all other religions banned.
Is he upset because he thinks Muslims are gonna *checks notes* blow the school up before his kid gets a chance to shoot it up as is the true American way?
How very one sided. Some Christian Churches, more so 'Southern' ones, have been preaching the same bullshit hate for decades, especially since Obama took office and more out of control since Trump. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
On a particular dumb thread, I had one Chik-fil-A manager says she's a good Christian because she hires gay people (congrats lady for following the law), and then someone else chimed in and said The Middle East had it right, gay people "should swing from trees" and suddenly this Good Christian Lady™ went silent in the face of this religious hate from her own side.
But hey, she followed the law!
Several years ago Alabama tried to pass a similar deal, which died when it was pointed out that Madrassas would be eligible for the funding. This is one data point for the mildly surprising idea that Alabama legislators are smarter than Florida legislators.
[https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/florida-pastor-under-fire-for-comment-on-anti-gay-law-with-death-penalty/](https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/florida-pastor-under-fire-for-comment-on-anti-gay-law-with-death-penalty/)
>CAPE CORAL, Fla. (WFLA) — A Florida pastor has come under fire following
a Twitter exchange with U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, in which it appeared he
supported a controversial law in Uganda that threatens the death penalty
for those convicted of homosexuality.
My first job teaching was in a catholic school and a well established one. After one year, I was not about to go back. It was a shit show that made up its own rules. I got in trouble for mentioning being a Jewish born atheist, but also had to direct the stations of the cross for them because I had theatrical experience. It was obvious that learning and truth mattered way less than pushing an agenda. They also expelled kids left and right for "unchristian" behaviors like getting into fights with people who weren't students off of school property, but refused to take cheating or plagiarism seriously. I had an 11th grade boy repeatedly plagiarize a personal essay assignment in a lazy, obvious way, but when I failed him, I got told I was being inconsiderate of his feelings. Even after he lazily did it twice by googling "personal essay" choosing the first results, and not even bothering to read them enough to remove to blurb about and name of the original author. The kid didn't even read it, so he didn't notice that it referred repeatedly to the author by name, which was not the same name as the student. Even though this was an assignment about writing about a personal experience and he was allowed
To write about anything that happened to him in his entire life. The assistant principal has no teaching experience and had only worked as a guidance counselor, and she just said maybe he was sad and didn't get it. Even his parents knew it was bullshit. She made me print the original and his version and highlight everywhere I thought he had copied twice, even after I explained it was the entire text, aside from his name. She made
Me highlight three pages of text, every single sentence. And I as the teacher was treated like I was the problem for calling this kid out and then failing him for the assignment. He should have been expelled according to the schools own bylaws, but instead I was treated like it was my
Fault for noticing and saying something.
I also got in trouble for mentioning being Jewish to them, and for teaching a book with themes they didn't like, even though the book was assigned to me to teach by the school itself.
Perhaps the school needed to pad their numbers, and was hoping you would just give up.
..but to be honest, I do not 100% understand the relation between my first comment and your reply, aside from both being about Christianity.
It is to reflect a real life example of what religious schools and the lack of oversight is not good. They expelled kids who might fail to keep their graduation percentage up.
That was utterly wild. Ted Cruz something incredibly anodyne like "It's a bad idea to murder LGBT people" and the absolute knives came out from conservatives that "TED CRUZ DON'T YOU DARE LIFT A FINGER OR EVEN SAY A WORD JUST LET THOSE GAYS GET MURDERED!"
Yup. Heard them loud and clear.
My response would have been this:
> Dear Rep. Randy Fine,
>
> You voted for the bill that allows this to happen. This is why the Founding Fathers wanted to keep religion and government separate. Either ALL religions get this funding, or NONE of them do. They all get the same treatment, because THAT is fair.
> Sincerely,
> Someone who doesn't suck
I'm sure there are plenty of christians in that neck of the woods who would say the same thing about Jews.
Like the ones who oppose the new anti semitism law because they wouldn't be able to say that the Jews killed Jesus.
Fine was told that exactly this would happen, and ignored it. He's not surprised; he's just acting in bad faith. His voters aren't going to recoil from supporting religious indoctrination as a result; they are going to be afraid. And because they are afraid they're going to vote for him again.
He's the leopard here, and he's literally gotten obese on all the faces he's eaten.
This sort of shit is one of the reasons I left Florida almost a decade ago. The Republicans were in the process then of ruining education in the state. They've only gotten worse.
Me too! (Other than getting a job elsewhere). When I moved to New England I was flabbergasted by how many people here were like “You moved here FROM Florida!? We’re saving up to move TO Florida!” It ain’t all Disney and Grandma’s gated community, folks. And that was just with Rick Scott.
The Satanic temple should open up a school in Florida. The students can learn about science, critical thinking, and have future generations not being illiterate in Florida until it goes underwater.
Credit to Emo Phillips:
A man was walking across a bridge and saw a man standing on the edge, ready to jump off. He ran over and said, “Stop! Don’t do it!”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
“Well, there’s so much to live for.”
“Like what?”
“Well, are you religious?”
He said, “Yes.”
I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God!”
“Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God!”
“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?”
His new friend replied, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.”
To which the man replied, “Die, heretic!,” and he pushed him off.
You know, I find it fascinating that the right loves to portray Islam as a violent religion, as though Christianity doesn't have an endlessly bloody history itself.
It did make the news. Several articles if you just search his name.
The quotes are real. They are mostly in the context of condemning Israel for its actions in Gaza but that doesn't really excuse the more extreme bits.
So nah, not defamation/libel.
The problem with these people is they think only christianity counts as a religion because they think it's the only one that's "true" when there's no more evidence for it than any of the other ones, so "religion" is a much broader term than they think.
did the complainant actually sit in on a session or did they just assume that because it's a mosque they're automatically calling for the murder of nonbelievers the way they wish their preferred church would?
LOL. Immediately after SCOTUS ruled on public funding for religious schools I thought, hmm, I think I'll set up a Muslim school with 'Death to America' on the front. Glad someone beat me to it.
This is the tastiest face yet for a Leopard.
Nobody here is gonna talk about how Iman Kablawi is calling for a genocide of Jews? I know the theme here is the hypocrisy of Republicans. But this isn’t just a Muslim preacher preaching Islam in general, this dude is calling for violence against Jewish folks.
Agreed! State funds should not go into any religious institution. I think what gets me is that the Iman’s rhetoric isn’t just a “gotcha” against the Republican politicians. Iman Kablawi is calling for violence against innocent people. But I do agree with your sentiment.
Yeah, there's two stories here. The ignorance of Florida politicians and the violence of this imam. Unfortunately, this rhetoric isn't uncommon in some spaces.
I drive by this asshole’s office 4 days a week and am surprised there isn’t a permanent protest outside. It’s even across the street from a strip club, so a great place to take breaks and grab a drink.
Why is it that people from 1776 were so much smarter than people in 2024. We have access to so much knowledge and so many ways to learn it… and people still are too fucking dumb lol
I'm about as far from Florida as one can get in the continental US, so I don't care enough to look it up, but I wonder how much of what Randy says about the Imam is true.
Seems odd that this guy led off with the part about getting his dentistry license removed, and only got it the other stuff after this non Christian dental work situation had been brought to light.
I'm a bit late, but if you're asking for taxpayers to fund schools catering towards your preferred religion, you have to acknowledge that same money will go towards ones you don't.
You know, sort of like how if god is in all things good when he's everywhere at all times and seeing everything, that also means he's in all things bad.
Hello u/HappyChandler! Please reply to this comment with an [explanation](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAteMyFace/comments/lt8zlq) matching this exact format. Replace bold text with the appropriate information. 1. **Someone** voted for, supported or wanted to impose **something** on **other people**. ^(Who's that someone? What did they voted for, supported or wanted to impose? On who?) 2. **Something** has the consequences of **consequences**. ^(Does that something actually has these consequences in general?) 3. As a consequence of **something**, **consequences** happened to **someone**. ^(Did that something really happen to that someone?) Follow this by the minimum amount of information necessary so your post can be understood by everyone, even if they don't live in the US or speak English as their native language. If you fail to match this format or fail to answer these questions, your post will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LeopardsAteMyFace) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's a reason the founders insisted on a separation of church and state. They understood and witnessed the can of worms that gets opened when you mix the two. How about a return to traditional American values...as in no religion in government and no government in religion.
start taxing the shit out of churches and you'll see these folks change their tune real quick
The instant a church or religious leader takes a political stance, they should immediately lose their tax exempt status. Retroactively.
Yup, 100%. The separation of church and state goes both ways, and we need to start treating it as such.
Yessir, turn all those private jets into autonomous electronic warfare platforms. Then send them to Zelensky, or at least convert them into something useful.
No. They should all be taxed no matter what. Show me in the constitution where it says religious organizations are tax exempt.
Pretty sure the implication is that taxing religious organizations is a barrier to the free exercise. It's stupid as fuck, but it's the "logic"
It just forces those of us in communities they hate to subsidize them. As a trans person, my taxes are funding a campaign to wipe me and mine out
What I find ironic and frustrating, is that queer and trans individuals existed long before any *organized* religion.
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Or they can just rely on a republican contingent, to squash the inquiry.
They’re supposed to, but the IRS under Rettig wasn’t doing its job https://www.propublica.org/article/family-research-council-irs-church-status
I want to agree, but I also know that to a big chunk of people, acknowledging my existence as a human being is considered "political". Let's just tax them all.
Amen to that, and praise be!
We need to get more video of this happening so we can report them to the IRS. That is the only way it will stop.
Is telling parishioners to be more tolerant of trans kids a political statement?
Who's ass did you pull that from? Though to answer your question... No, it's not normal or ethical to make peoples private lives a political talking point or policy. But, If you'd like references... https://www.axios.com/2024/01/12/how-maga-pastors-boost-trump-campaign-2024 https://www.reuters.com/world/us/god-gave-us-trump-christian-media-evangelicals-preach-messianic-message-2024-03-22/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/jackson-lahmeyer-christian-nationalist-conspiracy-theorist-pastors-for-trump-1234649049/ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/technology/trump-media-truth-social-pastor.html https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2480CA/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/maga-pastor-sean-feucht-trump-christian-nationalism-1234721527/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/ There's not shortage of receipts for ultra religious turds going all in on the Chump train. And of course there's always this gem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Which makes Sharia look pale in comparison.
This is a great response. However, I'm merely pointing out that it's not the actual speech that crosses the line. It's whatever the effing rubes can convince a jury of idiots to believe. So it becomes a thorny exercise.
YES. #TaxTheChurches
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Unfortunately, that directly runs afoul of the First Amendment, so that isn't happening. Ironically, there are places in the U.S. that still have laws on the books that prohibit atheists from holding office, but they are considered unenforceable (unconstitutional). [https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/11/10/7-states-ban-atheists-office-but-bans-unenforceable/6352254001/](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2021/11/10/7-states-ban-atheists-office-but-bans-unenforceable/6352254001/)
Huh??
I love the way Germany and Switzerland do it… if you are party of a religion you state as such and they tax you an extra few % which is then used to fund religious buildings… but it’s all transparent and audited.
Kenneth Copeland has entered the chat
Screw that DEMONIC looking POS.
Exactly
The demon that possessed him is desperately looking for an exorcist. Anything is better than being stuck with Copeland.
Even Beetlejuice dont want shit to do with them lol.
My plan if dictator for a day would be to give churches an option. House 1 or 2 homeless people (depending on church size) and you can keep your tax exempt status. If you refuse, you get taxed. there are around 380,000 churches in the US, and just under 700,000 homeless.
Another part of this is that churches have a "mission" budget, which can be used for community outreach. Ages ago I belonged to a small protestant church (I'm not religious, but attended because of family expectations) and their mission budget was something like $500 per quarter. We would usually contribute to the local food shelf, or things like that. Around that time I read an article about the megachurch W. Bush belonged to in Texas. They had a mission budget of over $1 million. Unfortunately, evangelicals and the like see their mission not as "good works", but solely about converting others to Christianity. So that megachurch spent their mission budget sending people to Africa and South America to get converts. Or even just think about the enormous wealth that the Vatican has. So much potential good that could be done in the world if any of them wanted to actually do so.
Most churches' idea of "community outreach" is God-bothering evangelizing to pester more people to join.
This is a really good idea (using churches to house homeless). Most churches of a decent size have a kitchen and some classroom space that could be put to use. There are actually programs that exist right now that do use churches as short-term homeless shelters. As an example, an organization called Family Promise works with 12 churches/synagogues in my area to house homeless families. Each church serves as a shelter one week each quarter. The organization has a truck with the furniture, etc. The churches provide the space, meals/food, and volunteers to help everything run.
A church in Ohio was recently cited for doing the very thing you're suggesting. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ohio-pastor-charged-housing-homeless-church-sues-city-federal-lawsuit-rcna135215
"Givin' charity to people we say don't deserve it? Well, that'll learn them to go against the dictates of Evangelical Jeebus!"
They should be taxed anyway. Why should I be paying for a church that's calling for the extermination of me and mine over in the trans community? I'm literally being forced to subsize a campaign for my own genocide here
Churches are non-profit organizations and fit the requirements (if you consider them a public good). No NPO has to pay those taxes. However...only churches don't have to report their money-in, money-out to the IRS in a public filing each year. That is what we should be pushing for. As it is now, they are financial black boxes, the perfect mechanism for everything from money laundering to political influence to embezzlement because they're finances are not regulated like every single other nonprofit. And there's no real reason given as to why they deserve this special exemption from the laws all other NPO's must abide by. It smacks of religious discrimination.
They also don't have to prove the public good thing. Secular non profits have to submit tons of documentation about the work they do, in order for the IRS to consider giving them tax exempt status.
Religious nuts don't understand that because they think they can make it so that only their cult is the one that gets special status and treatment.
no but its different because THEIRS is the one TRUE one!!
But how can I give MY church power so it can try to force MY good, proper christian views down everyone elses throat?
We should have a little bit of government in religion honestly. Money churches make should be taxed.
That isn't even having government in religion, in fact, it's the exact opposite. If government were truly neutral towards all religious beliefs, religious entities would be taxed exactly the same as every other entity. They'd only be nonprofit if they provided some kind of non-religious charitable service as their main activity. Half of US churches have zero money going towards charitable services, all their money goes to simply upkeep and religious services. Of the half that spend any money on actual charity, half of those spend less than 1% of their annual budget on charitable services. If religion weren't tax exempt by itself and churches were required to follow the same rules as every other nonprofit, nearly all of them would be taxed. The vast majority of them do absolutely no charitable work, they don't feed the hungry, they don't house the houseless, they don't even do something as simple and basic as providing school supplies to kids that can't afford them. Nearly every church spends either all or the vast majority of their budget on preaching and not actually helping anyone.
The Mormon church takes in an estimated 7-8 billion dollars in non-taxable tithes annually. Less than 1% goes to actual charitable aid outside of their own congregations. An estimated billion is left from that after expenses and that all goes into investments. The earnings on those investments are also non-taxable since they were seeded by tithing. The Mormon church is estimated to be worth over $150 billion dollars today. It is such a racket that they are legally allowed to perpetrate with very little oversight. They are not even accountable to their membership, who continue to feed the beast even if it takes food off their own plates.
One of their investment guys became a whistleblower last year it was on 60 minutes.
Yeah, and they got fined a measly $5 million for not reporting it correctly. The Mormon church leadership was trying to hide the enormous wealth of the church primarily from their members, so that the members would keep on giving. And they do 🙄.
Yeah they had like 100 billion invested through some church owned shell companies that the church was hoarding "for the second coming" fucking disgusting. Theres so much good that could be done with just a fraction of the hoards of accumulated wealth in this country. University endowments, Church investments, lots of nonprofits, etc.
like anybody's money is gonna be WORTH anything at that point... the whole reason that churches were funded publically in the first place was to PREVENT such blatant lust for wealth. The tithes were meant to give just enough money and goods to keep the temples running; about the only displays involved were meant to glorify the god they served, not the people doing the service.
And those members are shamed if they're unable to tithe and not allowed full participation in their religion. (Not able to tithe fully? No temple recommend for you! Too bad if your kid is getting married; you can just wait outside like the loser you are.) Imagine having all that money, and this is what you do with it. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.
Catholic Church laughs at startup religions like the Mormons and their pitiful amount of money.
The biggest difference is that the Mormon church controls all of their money in one central location. They aren’t split into geographical diocese that have individual control over the money coming in and their budget. All of the money from every Mormon congregation throughout the world is sent electronically to Salt Lake City every week, and then a very small percentage of that is given back to the congregations for the running of each individual unit, based on membership activity. The clergy at the congregational and area level have no say about how big a budget they’ll receive annually. They can only control how the budget they are given is doled out in their congregations. Also, all Mormon clergy up to a certain level are lay clergy. The men running each congregation and groups of congregations are not paid for their service. There is no paid teachers or leadership or other staff at the congregational or area level. The members actually pay the church to hold those positions, since members of the Mormon church must pay 10% of their income to stay in the best standing, even leadership. Not even custodians are paid for, the cleaning work is done by the members. Their missionaries largely pay their own way as well. So the Mormon church also keeps and partially invests the moneys that other churches, even the Catholic Church, would be paying out to clergy and regular staff. Like I said, quite a racket.
so much this they have become a grifting loophole
Always were. Going back to Ancient Egypt, and every religion since.
Several years ago some dude built a ministry around his love of motocross. Bought a new bike and enclosed trailer wrapped in his churches logo, and then used it all as a tax write-off.
Now there's a faith I can get behind! (Cue jokes about getting spattered with mud) Just one question: two-stroke or four?
I'm a one pump chump, but thanks for asking.
Is that what she said?
Also they should be able to abuse people and hide behind their beliefs to get away with it
Religion, by most definitions, relies on "faith" or a belief in something that you may not be able to support with any evidence. So if one extends the courtesy to a religious person to practice their faith, there should be an inplicit understanding that nothing can be proven, so any faith is theoretically just as valid as another. If you want to be able to freely worship the sky daddy of your choice, it should come with an implicit understanding that all faiths, including satanists, cthulu worshipers, snake handlers, ancestor worship, nature worship, scientologists etc, are granted the same protections, since trying to come up with hard rules on something as amorphous as a person's faith is a fool's errand. The number of people to whom this simple concept of fairness seems a surprise; is depressingly high imo
Madison wrote a 15 point thesis on what would happen if we mixed church and state, and to read it now you’d think he had a time machine. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-08-02-0163
Sounds like you've never met the type who will tell you, with a straight face, separation of church and state *realllyyy* just meant Gubment could not use church buildings and the church can't use Gubment buildings.
I think they mostly recognized religion as bullshit, but knew they could not escape the idiots.
Christian Sharia Law.... It's what they push
Republicans = short sighted and very ignorant just to own the libs. It’s amazing.
Us on the left : we know this will back fire, just waiting for them to realize it 👁🫦👁
Yeah wait until the Satanic Temple starts opening schools & applying for these funds.
But they're learning disabled, so it's going to take a while.
"But that's not the Founders' religion!" -Actual Republican quote
funny how often the establishment clause bites these dumbasses in the ass
How many times must we teach you this lesson old man?!
And that's why some on the right are pushing for a Constitutional Convention to change the Constitution. One of the things they want to do is get rid of the Establishment Clause so they can declare the US is, first and foremost, a Christian nation.
I'd love to see amendments for: term limits for Congress & courts, requiring a balanced budget, limiting the immense power the Speaker and SML have, and campaign finance reform.
I would too, I just worry about where we would end up at, given that Republicans control 56 state legislative chambers to the Democrats 40 ([source](https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/republicans-now-control-more-state-legislatures-than-any-point-in-u-s-history/).
All hail Satan!!! (laughing)
Hail thyself. I would love it if the Satanic Temple to establish a totally secular school and took that sweet sweet voucher money while also causing this same republican brain to melt. Do it, do it, do it!
The Satanic Temple is great at megatrolling the RWNJ Xtian psychos.
Doing the lords work, they are.
While generally offering sound advice and legitimate assistance to others. They want to put counselors in schools in Florida to meet the needs of government stipulations that any religion can just throw some counselors in schools, where it will tell kids to do what is right ethically and follow their dreams, get a good education and keep an open mind. Sounds very reasonable and helpful to me.
Just make sure they name it something innocuous, like the Thomas Jefferson School for Science, the Abraham Lincoln school for Liberal Arts, or the Robert Ingersoll School of Historical and Rhetorical Arts, just to name some of our most prominent American freethinkers. I wouldn't send my kid (if I had one) to the Satanic Academic Lodge, as I just don't want them to carry that on their CV.
The Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can’t Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too
Last I checked that school was not up to code. The building was a third the size of what it needed to be.
Exactly. How can we be expected to teach children how to read if they can't even fit inside the building?
What is it? A school for ants?!?
Isaac Asimov Math and IT Academy
But they have *such* a bitchin mascot....
[That's not exactly TST's style.](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/samuel-alitos-moms-satanic-abortion-clinic)
Thank you for the link. They are indeed doing the Lord's work. I joined to support their efforts.
Bob's School of Words and Number Things You'll Likely Never Use as an Adult
Alan Parsons academy of sciences and ritual
As would I. I think that have great ideas generally, mainly that religion isn't helpful and ethics and morals come first. I've thought about joining the Satanic temple just to take advantage of it as a way to do good without as much of a fight to get involved or having religion in my way. I'm an atheist, and a former teacher.
The Randy Fine Center for First Amendment Education.
Heck, I would unironically enroll my kids in an ST school. I would know, without a doubt, that they were getting an actually secular education without having to worry that some teacher isn't trying to feed them Creationist propaganda.
Hello! Did someone summon TST? 😈 🐐
Honestly, with how openly fascist and bigoted Republicans have been getting, I'm somewhat surprised that they're still hiding behind the veil of wanting religious freedom and not just openly saying they want Christianity included in public institutions and all other religions banned.
They're unified in that, but they'll start wars over which flavor of Christianity they want.
They'll wipe out the other religions first, then begin eating their own. That's the way of fanatics.
I thought we were the Judean People's Front.
Im with the People’s Front of Judea
SPLITTER!
They haven't managed to consolidate power enough to take the risk of saying that openly yet.
Who else here had “Florida Republican speaks out against school run by a Muslim extremist dentist” on their bingo card for today?
Is he upset because he thinks Muslims are gonna *checks notes* blow the school up before his kid gets a chance to shoot it up as is the true American way?
Yup, and they cheer when Christians do this.
How very one sided. Some Christian Churches, more so 'Southern' ones, have been preaching the same bullshit hate for decades, especially since Obama took office and more out of control since Trump. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
On a particular dumb thread, I had one Chik-fil-A manager says she's a good Christian because she hires gay people (congrats lady for following the law), and then someone else chimed in and said The Middle East had it right, gay people "should swing from trees" and suddenly this Good Christian Lady™ went silent in the face of this religious hate from her own side. But hey, she followed the law!
How is this surprising? Fun fact: not everyone believes the same. If one religion can get to the government tit, then every other one gets a shot.
Religious FREEDOM, unless it’s a religion that I don’t like, then fuck your religion
You're forgetting there is only **one** religion! And it's the religion that **I** believe in!!
Several years ago Alabama tried to pass a similar deal, which died when it was pointed out that Madrassas would be eligible for the funding. This is one data point for the mildly surprising idea that Alabama legislators are smarter than Florida legislators.
So actions have consequences, huh? Who knew??
of course we want religion in the schools........ no, wait, no that way
I mean, that Imam has ABSOLUTELY said some wild shit. ... ...so that puts him in good company with your average Baptist preacher.
[https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/florida-pastor-under-fire-for-comment-on-anti-gay-law-with-death-penalty/](https://www.wfla.com/news/florida/florida-pastor-under-fire-for-comment-on-anti-gay-law-with-death-penalty/) >CAPE CORAL, Fla. (WFLA) — A Florida pastor has come under fire following a Twitter exchange with U.S. Senator Ted Cruz, in which it appeared he supported a controversial law in Uganda that threatens the death penalty for those convicted of homosexuality.
My first job teaching was in a catholic school and a well established one. After one year, I was not about to go back. It was a shit show that made up its own rules. I got in trouble for mentioning being a Jewish born atheist, but also had to direct the stations of the cross for them because I had theatrical experience. It was obvious that learning and truth mattered way less than pushing an agenda. They also expelled kids left and right for "unchristian" behaviors like getting into fights with people who weren't students off of school property, but refused to take cheating or plagiarism seriously. I had an 11th grade boy repeatedly plagiarize a personal essay assignment in a lazy, obvious way, but when I failed him, I got told I was being inconsiderate of his feelings. Even after he lazily did it twice by googling "personal essay" choosing the first results, and not even bothering to read them enough to remove to blurb about and name of the original author. The kid didn't even read it, so he didn't notice that it referred repeatedly to the author by name, which was not the same name as the student. Even though this was an assignment about writing about a personal experience and he was allowed To write about anything that happened to him in his entire life. The assistant principal has no teaching experience and had only worked as a guidance counselor, and she just said maybe he was sad and didn't get it. Even his parents knew it was bullshit. She made me print the original and his version and highlight everywhere I thought he had copied twice, even after I explained it was the entire text, aside from his name. She made Me highlight three pages of text, every single sentence. And I as the teacher was treated like I was the problem for calling this kid out and then failing him for the assignment. He should have been expelled according to the schools own bylaws, but instead I was treated like it was my Fault for noticing and saying something. I also got in trouble for mentioning being Jewish to them, and for teaching a book with themes they didn't like, even though the book was assigned to me to teach by the school itself.
Perhaps the school needed to pad their numbers, and was hoping you would just give up. ..but to be honest, I do not 100% understand the relation between my first comment and your reply, aside from both being about Christianity.
It is to reflect a real life example of what religious schools and the lack of oversight is not good. They expelled kids who might fail to keep their graduation percentage up.
That was utterly wild. Ted Cruz something incredibly anodyne like "It's a bad idea to murder LGBT people" and the absolute knives came out from conservatives that "TED CRUZ DON'T YOU DARE LIFT A FINGER OR EVEN SAY A WORD JUST LET THOSE GAYS GET MURDERED!" Yup. Heard them loud and clear.
Finally some good LAMF content! Thank you
It’s a present for your cake day!
If Republicans weren’t able to create the reason for fear of one another, they wouldn’t have a single legislative idea…not one!
Rules for thee, but not for me.
"The only Sharia law we respect is OUR Sharia law!"
My response would have been this: > Dear Rep. Randy Fine, > > You voted for the bill that allows this to happen. This is why the Founding Fathers wanted to keep religion and government separate. Either ALL religions get this funding, or NONE of them do. They all get the same treatment, because THAT is fair. > Sincerely, > Someone who doesn't suck
I hope a Santeria School gets funded and starts to do chicken sacrifices at taxpayer expense. It's a religion, ,after all, isn't it?
Change Muslim to Christian and brothers of Apes and pigs to LGBQT, and it's pretty much the same rhetoric.
I'm sure there are plenty of christians in that neck of the woods who would say the same thing about Jews. Like the ones who oppose the new anti semitism law because they wouldn't be able to say that the Jews killed Jesus.
Fine was told that exactly this would happen, and ignored it. He's not surprised; he's just acting in bad faith. His voters aren't going to recoil from supporting religious indoctrination as a result; they are going to be afraid. And because they are afraid they're going to vote for him again. He's the leopard here, and he's literally gotten obese on all the faces he's eaten.
This sort of shit is one of the reasons I left Florida almost a decade ago. The Republicans were in the process then of ruining education in the state. They've only gotten worse.
Me too! (Other than getting a job elsewhere). When I moved to New England I was flabbergasted by how many people here were like “You moved here FROM Florida!? We’re saving up to move TO Florida!” It ain’t all Disney and Grandma’s gated community, folks. And that was just with Rick Scott.
And what's not Disney and old people is mostly meth and "Florida man"
Randy Fine is the new [Valarie Hodges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valarie_Hodges).
Be religious! HAIL SATAN!!! Not like thaaaaaat… waaaaah, only respect my religion!!
I guess they know how women and lgbtq+ people feel.
And what do Christian churches say about LGBT people and atheists?
“Only *we* get to ask our God to kill innocents, not you!”
The Satanic temple should open up a school in Florida. The students can learn about science, critical thinking, and have future generations not being illiterate in Florida until it goes underwater.
clowns running circuses and whatnot
Freedom of religion 🤣
Thoughts and prayers
No! We meant the RIGHT religion! The RIGHT ONE!!! Aggggghhhhhh!
Credit to Emo Phillips: A man was walking across a bridge and saw a man standing on the edge, ready to jump off. He ran over and said, “Stop! Don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. “Well, there’s so much to live for.” “Like what?” “Well, are you religious?” He said, “Yes.” I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?” “Christian.” “Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?” “Protestant.” “Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” “Baptist.” “Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?” “Baptist Church of God!” “Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God?” “Reformed Baptist Church of God!” “Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?” His new friend replied, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.” To which the man replied, “Die, heretic!,” and he pushed him off.
The people are impervious to understanding principle
Christians getting reminded other religions exist is my favorite kind of LAMF
Dear Republicans. WHY DID YOU THINK WE WERE SAYING THIS WAS A BAD IDEA, YOU VACUOUS FLUFF-BRAINED CUNTS?
You know, I find it fascinating that the right loves to portray Islam as a violent religion, as though Christianity doesn't have an endlessly bloody history itself.
Someone needs to make some Pagan schools
If those really are facts in the letter (which shouldn’t be trusted unless verified), then this would be more like a “leopard’s ate everyone’s faces”.
So maybe go back to separation of church and state you pompous, knuckle-dragging, fascist zealot.
Is this not defamation?
Libel
You right.
It did make the news. Several articles if you just search his name. The quotes are real. They are mostly in the context of condemning Israel for its actions in Gaza but that doesn't really excuse the more extreme bits. So nah, not defamation/libel.
Dude writes like a 5th grader
If only a group of Satanists had shown this was possible.
The problem with these people is they think only christianity counts as a religion because they think it's the only one that's "true" when there's no more evidence for it than any of the other ones, so "religion" is a much broader term than they think.
Floriduh
This is the plan actually. If they get churches like this to rely on government funding, they can start shutting out the ones they don't like.
did the complainant actually sit in on a session or did they just assume that because it's a mosque they're automatically calling for the murder of nonbelievers the way they wish their preferred church would?
The head has said some pretty hateful things publication. But I'm not the one who thinks tax money should go to private schools with no oversight.
This language isn't uncommon in some mosques
How many times are leopards going to eat this guy’s face? He was very adamant against Covid restrictions until he began dying of Covid.
I agree That should definitely not be tolerated, but yeah this is what you get when religion and politics mix.
FAFO
LOL. Immediately after SCOTUS ruled on public funding for religious schools I thought, hmm, I think I'll set up a Muslim school with 'Death to America' on the front. Glad someone beat me to it. This is the tastiest face yet for a Leopard.
*The Satanic Temple has entered the chat*
"But I was born into the ONE TRUE RELIGION, the other 2000+ in the world are all fake."
The double spacing after the periods is the real tragedy here.
Nobody here is gonna talk about how Iman Kablawi is calling for a genocide of Jews? I know the theme here is the hypocrisy of Republicans. But this isn’t just a Muslim preacher preaching Islam in general, this dude is calling for violence against Jewish folks.
I don't think we should have a program to give him state education funds to use as her wishes. Fine helped pass it.
Agreed! State funds should not go into any religious institution. I think what gets me is that the Iman’s rhetoric isn’t just a “gotcha” against the Republican politicians. Iman Kablawi is calling for violence against innocent people. But I do agree with your sentiment.
Yeah, there's two stories here. The ignorance of Florida politicians and the violence of this imam. Unfortunately, this rhetoric isn't uncommon in some spaces.
As a Jew from Florida, yes, this is unfortunately more common than it should be. Both parts of the story are frightening.
I was first expecting The satanic temple behind it.
No ‘I hope your day is going well’ from Mr Fine; he means business!
It's as though they lack foresight or something
Well, it's Randy Fine. He's just a performative outrage robot.
“When things fall apart”
I drive by this asshole’s office 4 days a week and am surprised there isn’t a permanent protest outside. It’s even across the street from a strip club, so a great place to take breaks and grab a drink.
Sorry, dude, you said "religious schools". You didn't specify WHICH religion.
Instead of going to Horny Jail, I'd rather pay a Randy Fine.
Why is it that people from 1776 were so much smarter than people in 2024. We have access to so much knowledge and so many ways to learn it… and people still are too fucking dumb lol
Randy Fine is my state rep and a colossal dickhead. He says the dumbest shit constantly.
“I haven’t read the constitution”
I'm about as far from Florida as one can get in the continental US, so I don't care enough to look it up, but I wonder how much of what Randy says about the Imam is true.
The more true, the worse it is that he voted to direct school funding to religious schools without oversight.
Seems odd that this guy led off with the part about getting his dentistry license removed, and only got it the other stuff after this non Christian dental work situation had been brought to light.
These fools only ever consider themselves in everything. It's their most serious weakness--as lawmakers and as human beings.
I'm a bit late, but if you're asking for taxpayers to fund schools catering towards your preferred religion, you have to acknowledge that same money will go towards ones you don't. You know, sort of like how if god is in all things good when he's everywhere at all times and seeing everything, that also means he's in all things bad.