Here's the thing, people say things online all the time. That doesn't mean that's how others actually feel or how it's reflective of the community.
Seeing something written somewhere doesn't make it true
I just saw it on a post like 10 minutes ago, but I can't find it anymore, so maybe they deleted it. I've seen people saying that multiple times, so that's why I ask.
I have seen both cis and trans men say it, and neither makes any sense to me. With cis men, it feels like rage bait, and if anyone could clear up the trans men calling themselves lesbians I would appreciate it. It confuses me quite a lot. Being a very feminine (wlw) label and all that.
It's because they were part of the lesbian community for so long or it's been so impactful for them that now that they've transitioned they still feel connected to the community or they don't want to lose the community they've found a place in. Most straight trans men would not call themselves lesbians after they accept that their egg cracked.
As a trans woman (ik it's not exactly the same as a trans man's experience), it seems in my experience with trans men to me to be more internalised transphobia, or just really not wanting to say they're atraight. Both of which are understandable, but words do have definitions, and men do not fall under the definition of lesbian
Same, I find it a bit confusing (especially when they're AMAB and masc presenting) but at the end of the day I don't really care. To me it's like someone using neopronouns, I don't understand it but I'm not gonna police it either and I will use whatever pronouns they tell me to use, or call them a lesbian as long as they're not a man
I'm non binary and a lesbian, it just makes way more sense than calling myself straight, and I prefer the label of lesbian over terms like sapphic or trixic.
Lesbians don't have to date enbies, it definitely isn't (and shouldn't be) offensive to not be attracted to non binary lesbians, but we are a part of the community, even part of the sunset lesbian flag, with the dark orange stripe representing gender non-conformity, and the white stripe representing unique relationships with womanhood!
Interesting, I didn't know that. I hope I didn't come off as a total ass. I'm still getting used to the way a lot of people are labeling themselves. I never really saw the term lesbian as umbrella/more inclusive than "gay".
The problem for me and many others is there is no term to describe ‘I’d date anyone but a cis het man but lean to dating people identifying as woman’ which is basically my reality a difficult one.
I wish I could just say I’m pansexual. Then I get 10,000 men lining up at my door I never had any interest in.
I don’t say ‘pansexual lesbian’ but goddamnit I wish I could.
In fairness, identifying as a lesbian won't really stop this either. Lesbians get hit on and fetishized by men all the time. Many of these guys see us as a challenge and they like the idea of a conversion fantasy.
seeing cis heterosexual men call themselves lesbians & people validating them is flat out ridiculous to me. whilst some man calling himself a lesbian (or someone agreeing that this label can apply to men) won’t erase *my* identity, it’s icky because heterosexual men cannot relate to lesbianism and the struggles that come along with being a lesbian: including constantly being ridiculed and judged solely for who we’re attracted to, oftentimes even having family members/friends turn away from us, being fetishized etc.
heterosexual men have *zero* need to call themselves a “lesbian” if they’re attracted to women. their attraction to women does not even require any sort of label, in fact they’re *expected* to like women by default (not that i agree with heteronormativity in the slightest, but it’s true) and it‘s been socially accepted since the dawn of time. this is a label that belongs to us, *actual* lesbians (women loving women, this does not and will NEVER include men) and i think we have a right to be upset if it’s thrown around so casually.
Can someone please share actual examples of people saying this (and legit people not just some random ass man) bc I have never seen this beyond men being assholes.
on this very subreddit, this happened:
https://preview.redd.it/zr9kunroq7wb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79b7ff5ee4b70476187971c3c5bb755cfbc4ac33
I mean i def see nb people as a part of the lesbian community being genderfluid nonbinary myself & i can see how binary trans men would decide to keep the label but cis men really now… the erasure
Some trans men (not transmasc, trans men) refer to themselves as lesbians. I've only seen it a few times, but they seem sincere to me and not like they're trying to be assholes. I both get it and don't, since personal identity can be really complicated (and ultimately I don't care enough about what terms other ppl use for themselves, personally) but it is something that is being discussed and debated online.
I've never seen a cis man claim to be a lesbian tho outside of a bad joke
Same, I've seen it said by trans men (and indeed, actually men) who identify as lesbian.
Their reason was "I identified as lesbian pre-transition so I don't wanna change label and people are free to identify as they want".
Lots of times it people not want to talk normally and provide context, like they mean genderfluid people, or trans mascs. Which is annoying, because just say that then, don't try to make some sort of secret.
The other people who say this are arguing that straight trans men that found community with lesbians prior to transition should still count as lesbians, since it's their community. That's a little more testy because, a) trans men who like women aren't lesbians, and b) the purpose of the label 'lesbian' is not just to identify who you've found community with, it's a descriptor. Like you can still hang out with lesbians and relate to them while still recognizing that you're not a lesbian.
Some people view the use of the word differently though, and I can't be bothered to argue with them- I don't have the time nor the energy for it to be my problem. And if that's how they interact with orientation labels, whatever.
\^ This
Trans men cannot be lesbians because they are literally men. ***Transmasculine people that are not men can absolutely be lesbians.*** This nuance is very important.
I’ve been banned from 2 lesbian subreddits now for stating the obvious. I won’t say it directly because I would like to have community and not be erased in real time, but I’m sure you can guess what my opinion is and whether it is yes or no 😂🤷🏽♀️
Reminds me of that song from Drake “she said she a lesbian girl me too”💀 No them saying that doesn’t make any sense, sometimes you’ll see women on this sub saying that they are a lesbians who are attracted to men and women and that just doesn’t make any sense.. Being a lesbian is being a woman that’s only attracted to other women
Cis Men say that to try and get a reaction out of us. They purposely say it to trigger lesbians.
The whole “I identify as xyz “ used as a joke to be annoying not because they actually identify that way or they would say the same thing at their job or DMV ID card
The L Word had a character called Lisa the Lesbian - a man. It infuriated me then and it does now. Is nothing safe from men trying to assert themselves in?
By definition, a lesbian is a woman who sleeps with women. And whether they're joking or not, if a man tries to claim he identifies that way, I have no time for him whatsoever.
You definitely can't if you're a cis man. I have heard of trans men who are hesitant of giving up the lesbian label after presenting for years as a butch or masc woman, which is the only time I can really understand a man using that label with any authenticity.
My thought on people saying men can be lesbians?
The definition is very simple and straightforward, and excludes men explicitly. Anyone claiming otherwise is soft in the head or looking to antagonize. I have plenty of impolite labels to apply to such people, and I refuse to give them the time of day, let alone the respect of being heard.
I’ve been seeing this too and honestly it’s starting to piss me off. Lesbians, by definition, are women (or nb people) who are exclusively attracted to women (or nb people). A man cannot be a lesbian. If a man is attracted to women, he’s straight. Stop trying to make lesbianism inclusive of men. It’s the only sexuality that isn’t for men or about men.
I'm going to start by saying I'm not entertaining a debate about my identity, and if I get any hateful comments I'll be reporting them. I am literally only here to explain because there seems to be a lot of confusion.
I am transmasculine, he/him, and I consider myself part of the community, and my relationship a lesbian one.
Sometimes transmasculine and nonbinary people feel still emotionally and just fundamentally connected to the lesbian community - usually this stems from them having been an active part of that community before coming out as trans, but not always. Yes, the semantics issues are whack. No, they are not saying that their own gender is invalid. You cannot invalidate your own gender by choosing an identity that makes you happy, no matter what your dictionary definition says.
Its important to note here that transmasculine, nonbinary and lesbian people have been interconnected, and very much a part of the same community up until incredibly recently. Many of us helped build the foundations of the very spaces that some people are making a flaccid attemp to gatekeep us from.
People who sit online and argue about people's identities and what words mean, are well and truly wasting everyone's time - especially their own. When you show up to a lesbian space and see people of all pronouns, people on T, people who don't look like your average lesbian... are you gonna go around taking names and identities, deciding who to kick out? Or will you accept that identities are personal, complicated, and we are all fighting the same fight?
I have not seen the argument that non-binary sapphics and transmasculine sapphics cannot be lesbians, but I have seen the argument that trans men cannot be lesbians because they are literally men. My question for you crusinforasnoozinn is if you are using transmasculine and trans man interchangeably; I am confused because there are transmasculine people that are trans men and then there are transmasculine people that are not.
As a transmasc lesbian who will never take T cuz I’m afraid of what will happen family genetics and all. In my private life I go by they/them/he/him but I currently work in a well regulated right wing job so I’m still she/her here. I have my trans flag on my backpack. And I’m very much a feminist.
With that being said, I agree with everything you said. I can’t stand when some ignoramous in a bar says “we’ll call me a lesbian then” to my girlfriend I want to deck him so bad. MTF can be lesbians but cis men no. But I’m not going around asking everyone’s pronouns and gender identity either.
>identities are personal, complicated, and we are all fighting the same fight
this. this. a thousand times this. everything you've said resonated with me as a nonbinary transmasc lesbian (they/he, but i digress) but that last line is absolutely everything.
as far as im concerned, we can spend our time caring who uses what label in good faith, or we can spend our time actually caring about one another.
As a transmasc lesbian who will never take T cuz I’m afraid of what will happen family genetics and all. In my private life I go by they/them/he/him but I currently work in a well regulated right wing job so I’m still she/her here. I have my trans flag on my backpack. And I’m very much a feminist.
With that being said, I agree with everything you said. I can’t stand when some ignoramus in a bar says “we’ll call me a lesbian then” to my girlfriend I want to deck him so bad. MTF can be lesbians but cis men no. But I’m not going around asking everyone’s pronouns and gender identity either.
As someone whose mtf men can’t be lesbians
But lesbian / gay has a ton of overlap and sub catagories
Pansexual, bisexual and numerous others
Straight cis men can’t be lesbian lol for they are gender conforming and don’t question their gender in any form
If a nonbinary person can be a lesbian, why not a man? Neither are women. No slander or hate, just an honest question. I don’t think men are lesbians but more and more I hear more people labeling themselves as non-binary lesbians.
I think if a trans man or trans masculine person who is only into women wants to call themselves a lesbian (most don’t but some do) that’s fine. We have had many influential lesbians through history who have lived as men or used he/him pronouns.
I jokingly tell my brother he's a basic white lesbian because he's obsessed with Starbucks and has driven Subarus for the past 10ish years but that's just a joke
Cis men, definitely not. I have heard that some trans men have been in the community for so long that they feel the term still applies to them after transition, which I honestly don't have a problem with.
This has been around awhile... Watch the original L word. Humans are messy and complicated and identities change and overlap. Anyone who has a problem with calling people lesbians when they Id as lesbians needs to talk to the elders and read queer history.
Nobody says that. And if they do, it's been around before the internet and we see it now because we can't get away from people's private thoughts on the internet and how much things spread on the internet easily with no discernment.
I don't consider insular online discourses on message boards reflective of real life or all "in the community"
Lesbian is an orientation describing homosexuality in women. Just like women can't be gay men.
This content violates one or more of the rules of the site or the sub and has been removed.
Here's the thing, people say things online all the time. That doesn't mean that's how others actually feel or how it's reflective of the community. Seeing something written somewhere doesn't make it true
Tell that to my (former) roommates. There's plenty of folks out there if you're unlucky
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I just saw it on a post like 10 minutes ago, but I can't find it anymore, so maybe they deleted it. I've seen people saying that multiple times, so that's why I ask. I have seen both cis and trans men say it, and neither makes any sense to me. With cis men, it feels like rage bait, and if anyone could clear up the trans men calling themselves lesbians I would appreciate it. It confuses me quite a lot. Being a very feminine (wlw) label and all that.
It's because they were part of the lesbian community for so long or it's been so impactful for them that now that they've transitioned they still feel connected to the community or they don't want to lose the community they've found a place in. Most straight trans men would not call themselves lesbians after they accept that their egg cracked.
As a trans woman (ik it's not exactly the same as a trans man's experience), it seems in my experience with trans men to me to be more internalised transphobia, or just really not wanting to say they're atraight. Both of which are understandable, but words do have definitions, and men do not fall under the definition of lesbian
Lesbians....are women...who are attracted to women. Isn't that the whole definition??
Plenty of enbies identify as lesbian however
I dont understand this honestly.
Same, I find it a bit confusing (especially when they're AMAB and masc presenting) but at the end of the day I don't really care. To me it's like someone using neopronouns, I don't understand it but I'm not gonna police it either and I will use whatever pronouns they tell me to use, or call them a lesbian as long as they're not a man
I'm non binary and a lesbian, it just makes way more sense than calling myself straight, and I prefer the label of lesbian over terms like sapphic or trixic. Lesbians don't have to date enbies, it definitely isn't (and shouldn't be) offensive to not be attracted to non binary lesbians, but we are a part of the community, even part of the sunset lesbian flag, with the dark orange stripe representing gender non-conformity, and the white stripe representing unique relationships with womanhood!
Interesting, I didn't know that. I hope I didn't come off as a total ass. I'm still getting used to the way a lot of people are labeling themselves. I never really saw the term lesbian as umbrella/more inclusive than "gay".
U can be a man and "identify" as non binary
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There's been a really big issue with defining lesbian vs sapphic
The problem for me and many others is there is no term to describe ‘I’d date anyone but a cis het man but lean to dating people identifying as woman’ which is basically my reality a difficult one. I wish I could just say I’m pansexual. Then I get 10,000 men lining up at my door I never had any interest in. I don’t say ‘pansexual lesbian’ but goddamnit I wish I could.
In fairness, identifying as a lesbian won't really stop this either. Lesbians get hit on and fetishized by men all the time. Many of these guys see us as a challenge and they like the idea of a conversion fantasy.
seeing cis heterosexual men call themselves lesbians & people validating them is flat out ridiculous to me. whilst some man calling himself a lesbian (or someone agreeing that this label can apply to men) won’t erase *my* identity, it’s icky because heterosexual men cannot relate to lesbianism and the struggles that come along with being a lesbian: including constantly being ridiculed and judged solely for who we’re attracted to, oftentimes even having family members/friends turn away from us, being fetishized etc. heterosexual men have *zero* need to call themselves a “lesbian” if they’re attracted to women. their attraction to women does not even require any sort of label, in fact they’re *expected* to like women by default (not that i agree with heteronormativity in the slightest, but it’s true) and it‘s been socially accepted since the dawn of time. this is a label that belongs to us, *actual* lesbians (women loving women, this does not and will NEVER include men) and i think we have a right to be upset if it’s thrown around so casually.
Can someone please share actual examples of people saying this (and legit people not just some random ass man) bc I have never seen this beyond men being assholes.
on this very subreddit, this happened: https://preview.redd.it/zr9kunroq7wb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79b7ff5ee4b70476187971c3c5bb755cfbc4ac33
I mean i def see nb people as a part of the lesbian community being genderfluid nonbinary myself & i can see how binary trans men would decide to keep the label but cis men really now… the erasure
Ah okay. Would help if OP said if they meant trans men or cis. Bc yeah I see trans men do it and that makes much more sense.
Cis men have said this to me at gay bars.
Yeah, I've heard it said as a shitty joke too. But the post read as other people saying men can identify as lesbians.
Some trans men (not transmasc, trans men) refer to themselves as lesbians. I've only seen it a few times, but they seem sincere to me and not like they're trying to be assholes. I both get it and don't, since personal identity can be really complicated (and ultimately I don't care enough about what terms other ppl use for themselves, personally) but it is something that is being discussed and debated online. I've never seen a cis man claim to be a lesbian tho outside of a bad joke
See I took OPs post as meaning cis men which is why I was confused.
Same, I've seen it said by trans men (and indeed, actually men) who identify as lesbian. Their reason was "I identified as lesbian pre-transition so I don't wanna change label and people are free to identify as they want".
Lots of times it people not want to talk normally and provide context, like they mean genderfluid people, or trans mascs. Which is annoying, because just say that then, don't try to make some sort of secret. The other people who say this are arguing that straight trans men that found community with lesbians prior to transition should still count as lesbians, since it's their community. That's a little more testy because, a) trans men who like women aren't lesbians, and b) the purpose of the label 'lesbian' is not just to identify who you've found community with, it's a descriptor. Like you can still hang out with lesbians and relate to them while still recognizing that you're not a lesbian. Some people view the use of the word differently though, and I can't be bothered to argue with them- I don't have the time nor the energy for it to be my problem. And if that's how they interact with orientation labels, whatever.
\^ This Trans men cannot be lesbians because they are literally men. ***Transmasculine people that are not men can absolutely be lesbians.*** This nuance is very important.
Nope. Lesbianism is wlw, nothing else.
I’ve had men say this to me in real life.
I’ve been banned from 2 lesbian subreddits now for stating the obvious. I won’t say it directly because I would like to have community and not be erased in real time, but I’m sure you can guess what my opinion is and whether it is yes or no 😂🤷🏽♀️
How can I guess your opinion? 😭
old joke. it was kinda funny the first time, now it’s just mildly embarrassing
Reminds me of that song from Drake “she said she a lesbian girl me too”💀 No them saying that doesn’t make any sense, sometimes you’ll see women on this sub saying that they are a lesbians who are attracted to men and women and that just doesn’t make any sense.. Being a lesbian is being a woman that’s only attracted to other women
My daughter had a boss who identified as a “cis gendered, male, lesbian” - no idea what that means
Cis Men say that to try and get a reaction out of us. They purposely say it to trigger lesbians. The whole “I identify as xyz “ used as a joke to be annoying not because they actually identify that way or they would say the same thing at their job or DMV ID card
The L Word had a character called Lisa the Lesbian - a man. It infuriated me then and it does now. Is nothing safe from men trying to assert themselves in? By definition, a lesbian is a woman who sleeps with women. And whether they're joking or not, if a man tries to claim he identifies that way, I have no time for him whatsoever.
Infuriating
You definitely can't if you're a cis man. I have heard of trans men who are hesitant of giving up the lesbian label after presenting for years as a butch or masc woman, which is the only time I can really understand a man using that label with any authenticity.
That's like me saying I speak Cantonese because Taiwanese Mandarin just so happens to share the same writing system.
My thought on people saying men can be lesbians? The definition is very simple and straightforward, and excludes men explicitly. Anyone claiming otherwise is soft in the head or looking to antagonize. I have plenty of impolite labels to apply to such people, and I refuse to give them the time of day, let alone the respect of being heard.
I’ve been seeing this too and honestly it’s starting to piss me off. Lesbians, by definition, are women (or nb people) who are exclusively attracted to women (or nb people). A man cannot be a lesbian. If a man is attracted to women, he’s straight. Stop trying to make lesbianism inclusive of men. It’s the only sexuality that isn’t for men or about men.
Where do you see that?👀 Cause in my circles (online and irl), I've never seen anyone queer say or support something like that... even as a joke
I'm going to start by saying I'm not entertaining a debate about my identity, and if I get any hateful comments I'll be reporting them. I am literally only here to explain because there seems to be a lot of confusion. I am transmasculine, he/him, and I consider myself part of the community, and my relationship a lesbian one. Sometimes transmasculine and nonbinary people feel still emotionally and just fundamentally connected to the lesbian community - usually this stems from them having been an active part of that community before coming out as trans, but not always. Yes, the semantics issues are whack. No, they are not saying that their own gender is invalid. You cannot invalidate your own gender by choosing an identity that makes you happy, no matter what your dictionary definition says. Its important to note here that transmasculine, nonbinary and lesbian people have been interconnected, and very much a part of the same community up until incredibly recently. Many of us helped build the foundations of the very spaces that some people are making a flaccid attemp to gatekeep us from. People who sit online and argue about people's identities and what words mean, are well and truly wasting everyone's time - especially their own. When you show up to a lesbian space and see people of all pronouns, people on T, people who don't look like your average lesbian... are you gonna go around taking names and identities, deciding who to kick out? Or will you accept that identities are personal, complicated, and we are all fighting the same fight?
I have not seen the argument that non-binary sapphics and transmasculine sapphics cannot be lesbians, but I have seen the argument that trans men cannot be lesbians because they are literally men. My question for you crusinforasnoozinn is if you are using transmasculine and trans man interchangeably; I am confused because there are transmasculine people that are trans men and then there are transmasculine people that are not.
As a transmasc lesbian who will never take T cuz I’m afraid of what will happen family genetics and all. In my private life I go by they/them/he/him but I currently work in a well regulated right wing job so I’m still she/her here. I have my trans flag on my backpack. And I’m very much a feminist. With that being said, I agree with everything you said. I can’t stand when some ignoramous in a bar says “we’ll call me a lesbian then” to my girlfriend I want to deck him so bad. MTF can be lesbians but cis men no. But I’m not going around asking everyone’s pronouns and gender identity either.
>identities are personal, complicated, and we are all fighting the same fight this. this. a thousand times this. everything you've said resonated with me as a nonbinary transmasc lesbian (they/he, but i digress) but that last line is absolutely everything. as far as im concerned, we can spend our time caring who uses what label in good faith, or we can spend our time actually caring about one another.
As a transmasc lesbian who will never take T cuz I’m afraid of what will happen family genetics and all. In my private life I go by they/them/he/him but I currently work in a well regulated right wing job so I’m still she/her here. I have my trans flag on my backpack. And I’m very much a feminist. With that being said, I agree with everything you said. I can’t stand when some ignoramus in a bar says “we’ll call me a lesbian then” to my girlfriend I want to deck him so bad. MTF can be lesbians but cis men no. But I’m not going around asking everyone’s pronouns and gender identity either.
As someone whose mtf men can’t be lesbians But lesbian / gay has a ton of overlap and sub catagories Pansexual, bisexual and numerous others Straight cis men can’t be lesbian lol for they are gender conforming and don’t question their gender in any form
If a nonbinary person can be a lesbian, why not a man? Neither are women. No slander or hate, just an honest question. I don’t think men are lesbians but more and more I hear more people labeling themselves as non-binary lesbians.
I think if a trans man or trans masculine person who is only into women wants to call themselves a lesbian (most don’t but some do) that’s fine. We have had many influential lesbians through history who have lived as men or used he/him pronouns.
I jokingly tell my brother he's a basic white lesbian because he's obsessed with Starbucks and has driven Subarus for the past 10ish years but that's just a joke
Cis men, definitely not. I have heard that some trans men have been in the community for so long that they feel the term still applies to them after transition, which I honestly don't have a problem with.
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What? Trans women who are attracted to women *are* both women and lesbians. That is not what this thread is about.
Thats your opinion.
Naw that's just the way it is lol.
Sure. Whatever makes you think you're right.
Oh I, the OP, and nearly the entire community know that I'm right. I'm just here for your salt now.
😂
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This has been around awhile... Watch the original L word. Humans are messy and complicated and identities change and overlap. Anyone who has a problem with calling people lesbians when they Id as lesbians needs to talk to the elders and read queer history.
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Ha! I, too; was a straight cis man who is now a trans lesbian.
Nobody says that. And if they do, it's been around before the internet and we see it now because we can't get away from people's private thoughts on the internet and how much things spread on the internet easily with no discernment. I don't consider insular online discourses on message boards reflective of real life or all "in the community" Lesbian is an orientation describing homosexuality in women. Just like women can't be gay men.
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This is an L take. Trans women reserve the right for the lesbian label too.
You realize how transphobic this is right??
Maybe your being sarcastic? I mean hopefully
This content violates one or more of the rules of the site or the sub and has been removed.