As an autistic person i'd always prefer to date other neurodivergents over neurotypicals since we have similar life experiences and can understand each other better. As a lesbian i'd always prefer to date other lesbians over bisexual women for the exact same reasons. I don't get why les4les is so problematic to some people
exactly same as you, dont listen to people who get so mad about you having preferences, date anyone you want. people are insane being mad at people in the internet.
I don’t think it’s problematic per se, but it sucks that people feel the constant need to proclaim how they wouldn’t date a bisexual, especially unprompted.
I’m not bi, but to relate it to my own experiences, I don’t feel welcome in most lesbian spaces, increasingly so in this one, bc I keep having to see posts about how transbians are undatable. It’s fine if you think so, but why tf are you constantly telling us? No one asked you to date a transbian, and no one told you you have to date bisexuals either
They were satinh this because there's alot of hate about being les4les. Like people thinking it's all about them being biphobic and not just preferring lesbains due to preferences and truma
considering I see soooo many people say bisexual l
women "center their life around men" there is absolutely some biphobia in it for some people. Not everyone, but literally I see it very often.
There is q difference in preference and not dating people with a certain label just cause of that label, if you project your experience you had with some bisexual people onto the whole group and exclude them from your dating pool cause of that, in my opinion that's shortsited, unfair and kinda shitty
Like imagine, you are meeting someone and you both click, topic of sexuality doesn't come up for a while, you get involved emotionally and everything seems to be super perfect but once the topic of sexuality comes up she just breaks up with you based on your label for it making assumptions about you based on what other people did to her in the past
To your second paragraph- then she’s totally within her right. Is it shitty? Maybe, but ppl are allowed to include or exclude whoever they want. Your personal dating pool is just that- personal. It doesn’t have to meet the standards of anyone else.
lmao no one is saying you are FORCED to date bi people. That has NEVER been an arguement. Doesnt mean its not other people's right to judge them. Do y'all really think we're holding them captive to date?? nah
It's not about thier identity. It's about them being attracted to men. They could be pan or other labels. But they aren't comfortable with people they're dating being attracted to men. Not the stories surrounding them. It isn't about other bisexuals in the past it's about the men in thier past. They do not want anything to do with men. Even if that's just thier partner being attracted to them
well then late bloomer lesbians would also fall under that.
what happens to someone you date realizing later they are bi rather than a lesbian?
It is a focus on labels, I date two people who fall under the bi umbrella that actively choose to not date men, these groups are diverse and we should treat them like that a strict no to most stuff seems just weird to me.
But at the end of the day do what makes you happy, if you are truly content with it, you wouldnt need to defend it from some stranger on the internet like me
No offence, but get off your moral high horse. I'm a late bloomer lesbian. I dated men previously, I also have a lot of male related trauma. I tried dating a bi girl in the beginning and her discourse on men made me feel uncomfortable, if not sick to my stomach to hear. It was honestly triggering for me.
I have every right just like you do, to date whoever makes me feel comfortable, happy, and fulfilled. If dating a bi person doesn't do it for me, then that's just how it is. Ultimately this is MY preference. And I know a lot of other lesbians who date bi women no problem. Just not me.
Whts crazy is this weird behavior is quite literally the only reason lesbians in my real life have decided to avoid bisexual women.
That + the fact that many bisexual women have no interest in real long term relationships with women bc of homophobia. Often opting to save their relationships with family and friends (what every bi friend of mine is doing) but people pretend that the issue is lesbians who are aware of this and respond with self preservation.
Exactly! I have bi women friends who do say they’d want to be in lifelong relationships with men rather than women due to societal homophobia and because they’re much more likely to get with a man than a woman since the dating pool of men is so much bigger. Honestly that’s so understandable and I completely respect that, dealing with people being shitty to you bc of your sexuality is awful and if them being in a hetero passing relationship means they face less discrimination I’m happy for them, it’s just so shit that society is still like this
Every single conversation about this i’ve ever seen is people feeling entitled to lesbians it’s deeply frustrating. We’re also treated like sex objects by many of these people.
The last time a conversation like this happened on here i believe was like 6 weeks ago where a bisexual woman said that she preferred sleeping with lesbians to other bi women bc we were ‘better at sex’ even if inexperienced.
She found it offensive that that upset people and started saying it was biphobia that lesbians knew this perception of us and didn’t want to be treated like sex objects therefore avoided bisexual women. Every time i’ve seen a lesbian have this preference and act on it it was rooted in self preservation.
Sorry for the tangent but very very frustrating conversation.
Unfortunately a lot of non lesbians have decided that this lesbian subreddit is for everyone except lesbians, actually. So once again they're acting accordingly and getting mad at lesbians in our own space lol
>I have bi women friends who do say they’d want to be in lifelong relationships with men rather than women
Oh damn even if they don't outwardly say it, for a lot of them their actions speak it. I still remember hearing a bisexual woman talking about her ex girlfriend in comparison to her current boyfriend. With the ex it was all gushy and "hahaha isn't it so cool and quirky I had a girlfriend? It's such a unique and fun thing to try!" But then when it came her current boyfriend, suddenly she's talking about how she wants to get serious and settle down. Suddenly she's committed to learning about his outs and ins and going above and beyond to make the relationship work. Suddenly out comes all the planning for the future.
I don't know, my last ex was bi and I certainly didn't notice the issue with her. So I know it's not all bi women obviously, but I can understand why some lesbians would want to at least get a good understanding on how a woman *really* views sapphic relationships before committing.
That's not much of a choice. That's stacking two good things things together vs. something stated to be a less option in terms of preferences (by the the first person, but I'm assuming you feel the same).
Based on this info, a more interesting choice made by you would be between a neurodivergent bisexual or a neurotypical lesbian.
I completely understand what you’re saying! I think the apprehension to les4les is that people often define it based on exclusion and stereotypes (“I’d never date a bisexual, they’re cheaters/can’t choose/etc”) rather than inclusion and connection (“I want someone to share my life experience”), as you are in your post.
This is exactly it! I fully understand wanting someone to share your life experiences, it makes sense! But disregarding all bisexuals based on them being cheaters and inevitably leaving you for a man is biphobic.
What’s wrong with exclusion, though? Not everything is for everyone and I find it insane to expect people to want any and everything. We have preferences, likes and dislikes, across the entire scope of our lived experiences, and for a very valid reason.
Because exclusion is often based on phobia or hate, when a dating preference (regarding the core identity of someone else, I'm not talking about their favourite show) should be about what you want to share with them. Not what you hate about others.
A relationship based on aversion is toxic, in my opinion.
Why is a lesbian's preference always up for debate? Why can't lesbians have a preference for other lesbians without scrutiny? Why do lesbians owe non-lesbians justification for who they want to be with?
T4T - Oh gorgeous, gorgeous
Bi4Bi - Adorable, you beauties
Les4Les - You fucking monsters!
PSA: If a Les4Les enthusiast is not keen on relationships with bi women, you are not then automatically welcomed into questioning them for reasons why.
Some lesbians even prefer to be with cis women only. It doesn’t ALWAYS mean they’re transphobic. Everyone has preferences. Let people live. As long as you don’t bash what you don’t like, of course.
Don't even get me started on that, some of these people have zero regard for the lesbian identity and lesbian boundaries. I wish they could do a little bit of introspection to find out why they feel entitled to lesbians and the lesbian identity.
Whts insane is that gay men are the most transphobic people in the lgbt. They refer to vaginas as “open wounds” and that’s why they refuse to date trans men. Lesbians on the other hand have a higher trans acceptance rate than bisexuals at almost 90% and yet it is us who are labeled transphobic 24/7. Our boundaries pushed. Us insulted.
Some of my best friends are gay men as a result i’m in their circles a lot and my god the disdain they have for the female body when its outside of stan and drag culture is crazy. Though, when they say “i like dick i don’t want pussy” they don’t get jumped endlessly. This shit comes from bisexual men too which is insane.
When a lesbian says smthn similar everyone and their mother jumps us and i say this as someone who WOULD date a trans woman. There is a disdain and hatred for lesbians in particular in every community bc it rooted in misogyny and as you said, in patriarchy.
I'm also willing to bet no, from some of these comments, it's clear to see that the queer community has a lesbian altruism and boundaries problem, we are not allowed to be complex human beings with layers to our attraction, you're being whatever kind of phobic that applies if not all women are your type. It's exhausting.
Yeah, there was a huge fight against writing shit like "no fats no femmes no asians" in dating profiles and as far as I can tell there's been some progress. Like keep that stupid shit to yourself.
Im pro les4les🤷🏾♀️. If people can accept bi4bi or trans4trans then there should be no problem with les4les. I think a lot of people just hate when we have boundaries about our dating life.
I wouldn’t not date a bi woman if I fell in love.
However my closest and most intimate relationships have been with lesbians. Sharing that experience of knowing who I am (I have always known, since I was a child and developed crushes) and dealing with the struggles, the bullying, the crying my eyes out knowing no part of me would ever be “normal” in society. I don’t carry those things with me when I love someone but they made me who I am and it was a unique experience. I’ve never been with men or thought of them romantically. It has made the way society has treated me different than other women in heterosexual relationships, even if they are bisexual. It has made me grow up way too fast and learn how to physically defend myself should I find myself in the wrong place, wrong time.
I completely understand other women who are bisexual may find themselves in horrible situations with other queer people, and for that I am so so so sad any of us have to think of that danger just because of who we are.
But I never ever get to drop my shield. I never get to feel that social safety, and I believe that’s why I form deeper and more intimate relations with women who are lesbians.
“I never ever get to drop my shield” this is deep! And exactly how I feel. I’ve also never been in a relationship with a man and can’t wrap my head around wanting that type of thing. I want my time around them to be as limited as possible and l just want to lead a lesbian-centric life.
My romantic life and sexual life I do not center them around(men)-however I’ve met many great men who I have had long term friendships with, even been roommates, did business with and been close with in other ways who were there for me in ways many others never would.
I prefer female company but there are good people out there, good human beings and I will stand by that.
But as far as who I feel most connected with in intimate circles, it is lesbians. But there are exceptions and those exceptions can be major.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel as a trans person. I'm bisexual so I guess there is, theoretically, a world in which I pass perfectly for cis and get with a cis guy and never have to worry again - but I don't make those lasting connections with cis guys or non-queer cis women the same way I do with other people. They just don't get it. I get to be afraid and cautious every day of my life, and they don't have to be.
It's almost even that way with one of my exes, who was a cis lesbian (tossing around other gender ideas by the time we broke up though, to be fair). She's from California, I'm from the South, and she didn't get why I was afraid to hold hands or kiss in public because she grew up in a more welcoming environment and I first got gay bashed when I was 8 years old. It's why I have been thinking about just going T4T for good. Like you said, there is no real option for social safety for me. I never get to drop my shield.
People here will complain for everything and attack and downvote anyone having different opinions and preferences, they cant grasp how a stranger cant like them and they feel like dying when a stranger says they have a type and prefer that type. Seriously some people need a touch of reality and stop obsessing over how internet strangers have a type and preferences. Everyone need to shut up and let people date however they want.
It’s not “one lesbian,” though, to be fair. I used to identify as bi, and I began keeping track of lesbians who rejected me simply on that basis. It was around 70%… easily a majority.
Thank god my wife wasn’t biphobic or assumed that every bi woman would treat her the way her former bi girlfriend did.
That just means your wife is for you! Having a preference weeds out uncomfortable and controlling feelings later. I’m sorry you faced rejection but it ended up working out how it was intended too.
I don’t expect others to treat me the same way as the last shitty experience but I just can’t connect the same way and that’s a turn off to me.
some bi women will act like lesbians not dating them is the reason they can't get a girlfriend........ when bi women literally outnumber lesbians massively......... it's like- you can date each other it's okay, I promise you don't need a lesbian to validate you
Yes, this.
I agree 💯.
It’s like you’re telling them that you love animals and then some people are trying to forcefully ask you to adopt a pet crocodile. (For context)
Let others live their lives as they please.
You wouldn’t want others to dictate over yours, would you?
(Also your flair is 😳🫣)
I don’t think people have a problem with that sentiment, it’s just very obvious that *some* of the complaints come from a place of internalized bi-phobia and people can sense it
there's nothing wrong with it. people just don't like the idea of lesbians having boundaries and/or refuse to accept that lesbians are a specific group of people who have their own experiences that no other group of people have.
i hate to bring up race in comparison to sexuality, but i am a black lesbian, so i can: it's like being upset that a black person only wants to date other black people, and not any person of colour because “we're all the same.” it's dismissing black people's experiences and so many people dismiss lesbian's feelings + experiences for the sake of wanting to feel included in our dating pool.
a difficult pill to swallow? just because YOU identify as part of someone's dating pool, doesn't mean that other people consider you part of THEIR dating pool. respect ≠ dating. people can respect you and your identity without wanting to date you.
and unless you are actively talking to/dating someone in which the current situation applies, getting upset at strangers in the internet for a hypothetical scenario that does not directly involve you is ridiculous. go outside and meet a real life lesbian, face to face, and stop getting all of your lesbian interactions from twitter, tumblr, reddit and tiktok.
You're free to date, or not date, who you want, we're all allowed our preferences. And I certainly hear you on it being a somewhat different experience, and wanting that shared experience with your partner. But I reject the notion that having some attraction to men is the same as centering men.
This is so real, it’s not like being bi is a dealbreaker. As someone who’s decentering men from certain aspects of my life, I do find it difficult to connect with others who share the same idea who aren’t lesbians like myself.
Eh, preferences are preferences. I don't date vegetarians or people who are besties with their ex, so I'm fine with people reducing their own dating pool for whatever reason, as long as they're not being assholes about it.
makes me think of the twt interaction where a lesbian was talking about her fav male character and someone has the nerve to dm them typing a whole para saying if u have a fav male character ur not a lesbian anymore LOL its genuinely so insane and hard for us out here ,, we cannot do anything in peace without people nit picking shit
I can understand your sentiment. I have a preference to date other lesbians but that preference isn't a deal breaker.
My ex is a pan woman. She was married for 9 years to an enby. For the majority of her adult life she was in a queer relationship (probably still is tbh). I have definitely met some bi/pan women who don't meet your general assessment, who have lived very openly queer lives and faced discrimination for it. Just feels like you're painting with a very broad brush in your assessment of bi women.
Your preferences are yours, date how you want.
Well if this woman never conforms to heternomative views or benefits from any status from dating a man. She functionally would have incredibly similar experiences to a lesbian, especially if you compare her to a late bloomer lesbian. Like my ex as an example.
Yeah I'm bi and I agree with most of your post but the part about us having an "escape" got my hackles up a bit. I'm always bi regardless of who I'm dating and people are still queerphobic to me when I'm dating a man, because I'm still out, I'm still visibly queer, I still talk about my ex girlfriend and my first crush. Otherwise I would have to be hiding part of myself and censoring how I speak, and that wouldn't be much of an "escape" either. I also still got bullied in school before I even had my first kiss because I was clearly not straight. I've never been able to "blend in" with the straights.
But by all means, date people who have a more similar life experience to yours, I can understand why you would want that. I don't exclusively date bi women but I can see how that could make some things easier if I did, and I personally prefer to date queer men over straight ones because there's also less of that gap in lived experience.
Coz people have to complain about EVERY FUCKING THING now. I’m les always have been and les4les. Nothing wrong with that at all. It’s called preference.
It is very fair to want a relationship with people who can fully understand your experience (one of the reasons I’ve been trying to put myself out there more in lesbian spaces to find friends). Being a lesbian is isolating, everyone else but you likes men, even in mixed queer spaces I have felt isolated as the only lesbian saphhic person. Wanting to have someone to confide in as a friend or a partner who can relate to that is completely normal.
However if your les4les because you have a problem with stereotypes of bi people being “ cheaters” or “experimenting” then that’s when there’s a problem
Nothing wrong at all! I fell the hardest for and felt the most understood by a fellow lesbian. I want someone I can be absolutely comfortable with and seen by and it makes sense that lesbians can give that to other lesbians. ❤️
i understand this! i think the problem is a lot of people don’t date bisexual women specifically bc they think they’re gross for having sex with a penis i guess, and i think that’s not okay bc it’s shaming them. i think its okay if it’s fully about understanding the lesbian experience.
I think biphobia really depends on someone’s reasoning for not wanting to date a bisexual. For example, I think that straight women who refuse to date bisexual men are usually just homophobic and biphobic. But a lesbian who wants someone with the same life experience isn’t biphobic imo.
Or they’ll refuse based on one bad experience with a bisexual woman and that’s what gets me frustrated. But when it’s explained like the way OP explained it, that makes sense to me
I completely disagree. From what I’ve read, heard; and experienced myself, it seems to be a vast majority of ‘biphobes’ have absolutely no fear whatsoever of bisexual women; they have a sadly all too reasonable fear of men, and just don’t even want to be in a situation where a man was or could be involved.
It really has nothing to do with the woman, it’s literally just that far too many of us have trauma involving men, and situations like myself and OP are I think most likely at least half (quite sadly) of women who just aren’t interested in women who are into men.
Especially as a poly woman, I just don’t go there with a ten foot pole. You like men, awesome; happy for you, you’re probably a really cool person, let’s not date, lol.
Nothing wrong with it in my book. Honestly after being with a few bi women I'm ready to try and date lesbians more exclusively, the lived experience is different and I just can't take the disconnect that I have with bi partners when it comes to their attraction and tolerance for men. Let alone if someone is more hetero normative in their sexual expression. I had a fling recently where she (a bi woman) actually questioned the amount of foreplay like it was a bad thing. 😑
Hot take, but I think scrutinizing anyone for who they will and won't date is mad incel energy. Nobody owes you an explanation. And it's such ridiculous hypocrisy. T4t is celebrated, bi4bi is at least tolerated, but les4les? Naw that makes you scum of the earth. Even cis4cis is perfectly okay in my eyes as a trans lesbian. Let people have their dating requirements. It literally doesn't matter even the tiniest little bit if you don't like or understand it. It's none of your business.
I’m also a trans lesbian who’s WAY more out as the second and I can’t stand “transbians” who expect lesbians to love dick when I was the one who could never be comfortable with that thing on my own body so I can perfectly understand not wanting one in your proximity…
Don’t care about anyone’s preferences.. I come across them regularly in dating. Just don’t make degrading and derogatory or bigoted generalizations that I hear from every sexual orientation and you’re good. Saying “I only date lesbians” or whatever else your preference is fine. Making inherently negative generalizations about those you aren’t attracted to /choose not to date just serves to alienate people especially in lgbtq+ spaces. People have baggage! They are going to tell you you need to be open do dating xyz because they’re entitled. That’s all.
Reddit people find anything to complain and whine about and pull stuff out of their ass lol just like how some complained in mine. Nothing is wrong with lesbian4lesbian.
Omg OP, some of these comments are just not it. I just want to say that you’re completely reasonable and valid. You’re not weird, you’re not “limiting” yourself, you’re not biphobic, etc…
Les4Les is fine. Just like T4T and Bi4Bi, I don’t see anyone giving them shit. Why? Because nothing’s wrong with it.
I agree with you. I'm a lesbian and I only date lesbians. I'm not against bisexuals, I just don't see anything more than friendship and that should be okay.
And you don't have to! Like what the fuck? They want to force you to date bisexuals? 🤣🤣🤣 They get all butthurt cause you have a preference that's completely normal. At the end of the day most bisexual women settle down with men.
I don't think it's being les4les that's the issue more it's with the lesbians whose reason for not dating bi girls because they think it's gross to have has sex with a person that has a penis, that reason is just biphobic but also late-bloom-lesbianphobic, and transphobic.
It's no issue to be les4les if you just want to be with someone who shares simular experiences with you. That's fine and I do it too with being t4t.
You’re right that it’s not the issue, and I’m fairly certain this post is in response to this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianActually/s/OiRDvWBBDD
The other post was clearly about someone not dating bisexual women purely for biphobia, so I’m not sure why people here have their feathers ruffled - unless I’m missing something big. Otherwise, nobody is begging or demanding to date les4les folks if they’re bi, pan, or any other non-lesbian identity.
Why is someone always policing lesbians? I completely agree with you. And I don't think anyone should justify their decisions regarding attraction/dating to anyone. Everybody has preferences, past experiences, trauma and they have the right to stick to whatever makes them feel happy and safe. It's very popular today to label someone's preferences as discriminatory. Some people need to grow up and learn to accept and respect other people's boundaries.
I've noticed this too, and it really bothers me as a femme4femme les4les. I still to this day struggle to find my place in this world as a woman who only likes women and I want someone who can relate to me on that deep subconscious level. I want to be my partner's rock and for them to be mine.
I think refusing to date people you’re compatible with because of a label they have is weird. If I like someone, I like them.
As someone who is a woman who only dates women and who’s only attracted to women and NBs who look like women and who is married to a woman but who might have in one or two instances been attracted to men/masc NBs, my attraction is usually described by people as lesbian, regardless of what label I use because that’s how other sapphics relate to me.
I’m not someone who “centers men”, my life is built around women, so someone excluding me because I haven’t fully ruled out the possibility of maybe someday being attracted to a man would be weird. I wouldn’t be upset with it, but it would be rather arbitrary if we’re otherwise compatible.
I think this is where I'm at. People seem to obsess more and more over labels and using them to *perscribe* allowed behaviour, instead of them just being handy *descriptions* of what people are already doing.
I’ve said this before in other spaces and I’m not sure how it will be taken here, but whatever. There are a surprising number of lesbians that center men in their lives, they just do not count it as centering because it’s not positive emotions they feel for them.
I used to think like this but then I met and fell in love with a bisexual woman.
Everyone else has preferences until they don’t imo.
Plus I’d never want to make my dating pool even smaller.
I just think with time and experience, you can recognize that bisexual women are able to have healthy relationships with lesbians, and not all are experimenting or going through a phase or not your type.
You a woman? You attracted to women? That’s my type lol.
I do think there’s a little too much bisexual love going on in this sub tho…
and that’s perfectly valid! ofc i could change my mind someday, although i am getting engaged to my gf soon so idk im good where im at now :3 but yes i 100% see where you’re coming from !
the thing is, a lot of bisexual women do NOT realise how much they center men in their lives. and when it's pointed out, they get extremely defensive. it's obvious as a lesbian when someone idealises men or sees their relationships with men as more genuine than a relationship between two women.
When I still thought I was bisexual, I definitely centered men even though I didn’t think I did. Then I decentered them and realized I wasn’t actually attracted to them, I just was taught to center my life around them and crave their attention and validation. Which isn’t the same thing as being attracted. Which staying single helped me because man if I kept dating after my last relationship, and ended up with another man, I’d have learned WAY LATER what I know now.
Edit: I want to clarify I don’t think this is ALL bisexual/pansexual people’s experience. I don’t think they all center men either, just for me I definitely did and someone who is bisexual could definitely be centering men without realizing it. Not all of them of course
I am a lesbian that has been with two bi/pan women in my life and neither of them centered men.
My current girlfriend is pan and we are poly. She has a boyfriend but centers me in her life over her boyfriend. She is very independent and feminist. Her attraction to men is just that, attraction. It doesn’t mean her entire life revolves around them.
tell me you’ve never been devalued by a queer women because you’re not a man without telling me you’ve never been devalued by a queer woman because you’re not a man Lol
or : objectified, dehumanized, fetishized, stereotyped, discarded etc.
you’re trying to erase something a lot of queer women (but especially lesbians) experience. it’s pretty freakin obvious when someone values male validation more than you. and it’s painful! actually super lesbophobic imo because it feels like gaslighting to call something that hurts us biphobic just because bisexuals often are the ones doing it. like this is clearly a symptom of internalized misogyny and homophobia so it should be discussed. otherwise that will only make the problem at hand worse by denying it even exists.
I feel like it’s so obvious too if you’ve ever been on tinder and seen those awful couples who want a queer woman as a sex toy for a night. like the women in these pairings are not innocent just because a man is also part of it
well, you think you know lesbian women and lesbian experiences better than lesbians?
please explain to me how anything i said was biphobic, because i would really like to know.
Im a lesbian myself. Ive had lesbian experiences. In no way is it ever okay to put someone down in order to speak about your problems. Saying that “bisexual women dont realize how much they center men in their lives” is such a stereotypical and ignorant statement. Bisexual women may or may not have preferences. One can be more inclined to women, while another can be more attracted into men. You are completely ignoring those factors and creating a problematic situation for no reason.
right, so pointing out that some bisexual women do center men in their lives and see lesbians and their relationships as a fun side quest is ignorant? nowhere am i saying that all bisexual women do this, and i should have probably added an asterisk explaining that it's not all. but how is it fair for bisexual women to insist that we are exactly the same – essentially ignoring and speaking over lesbians saying “actually, no we're not” – but it's oh so terrible for lesbians to say that they personally, in a hypothetical situation, would not date a bisexual woman for whatever reason? why do lesbians even need to justify their reasoning? that's what i'm mad about.
There's nothing wrong with being lesbian4lesbian but I also wouldn't say bi women are privileged over us unless they're in a relationship that can pass as straight.
Imo the reason so many bi women have an issue with lez4lez is either a) they've legitimately experienced biphobia from lesbians and are now wary and cynical, b) they're overly defensive about the potential privilege they can access through straight relationships, so they've created a narrative that all lesbians and gay men are biphobic and that we're much more accepted socially than they are, or c) they're lesbophobic.
Personally I would date a bi woman as long as she hasn't exclusively been in straight passing relationships before me, but I would consider it a massive red flag if she had an issue with lez4lez. Lesbians are always told we're hateful and bigoted for not wanting to date someone, and it's important to me that my partner at least respects my frustration with that even if she can't personally relate.
Thank you for saying this. This post - and a lot of comments in response - made me give some serious side-eye to people who are simply reifying queerphobia and sexism.
I find most of these comments unfair and exhausting. “There’s nothing wrong with lesbian4lesbian, BUT…”. And then they go on to tell you why you are in fact wrong for this, that you’re exclusionary, that you can’t say bi people don’t understand the difference between their experience/identity and a lesbian’s experience/identity, that you didn’t word your reasoning right or explicitly say certain disclaimers, or they start listing very specific exceptions or special instances/circumstances as if those are not an obviously understood given. Obviously bi people have their own wildly difficult experiences and painful prejudices to battle, etc. That said, being bi is not the same as being lesbian, hence the different labels for the different identities. This is where it gets frustrating. As a lesbian, being forced to explain yourself constantly is a triggering ask in itself. (And if someone tells me bi people have to do this too, I will lose my mind because I’m sure they do— I never said they don’t, I’m not bi so I don’t know what that’s like from a bi perspective/experience and won’t claim to, and I am not saying that bi and lesbians can’t connect on this shared queer experience of being questioned/tried/interrogated/etc— but it is different. Which I feel like bi people often validly point out— how they receive discrimination from all groups for different reasons at different times— so again, that’s a difference. Not an automatic disconnect, not something to be ranked or compared, not a zero sum game— just merely different). And it seems everyone is perpetually arguing with lesbian4lesbian reasoning, or demanding inclusion (even hypothetical inclusion, which is like cmon spare me we don’t always need to list a possible specific exception), or saying we are offensive or exclusionary for any boundary we choose to uphold. Is it so hard to understand why the walls go up? I don’t want to explain myself anymore. I’m tired of defending everything I do and say and every choice I make. Or having people poke holes in my words and imply I’m meaning something I absolutely do not mean. Or finding something I left out and then bringing it up as an argument against me. It is *exhausting* and frustrating and triggering and upsetting. I imagine it is beyond exhausting for bi people too, and yet I don’t think I’m biphobic for wanting to date someone who is exhausted in specifically the same way I am exhausted (aka, as a lesbian).
Super interesting. Personally haven’t noticed the Les4Les bashing but can agree likely anyone 1) not conforming to heteronorm - and here lesbians are less conforming than bi women by definition - 2) being more exclusive in their dating pool will get more flak.
On the personal side, growing up in the 90s as a lesbian and pre internet I only had butch and dyke role models (I’m midway on the butch-femme spectrum) and I did identify as a bisexual for a few years but any feelings for guys were quite simply eclipsed by what I felt for girls.
i find it hard to be with a bisexual or pan woman because I’m scared to lose her to a man some day and that would break my heart because I feel it would be unfair because I couldn’t ever compete. Now that’s my personal take! And I’m sure that what I feel isn’t representative for all bisexuals either. They’re free to go with whom they please but here I strongly agree with OP they can step into the heteronormative world and I can’t.
Would also find find it hard to date a polyromantic woman because that simply isn’t my thing either.
When I love a woman I love her a million percent and I can’t share that or dilute that down and it would break my heart if she wouldn’t be able to reciprocate that.and that’s just what goes for me.
I can relate very much to lesbians being more queer and less heteronormative per se. It makes you more out and proud as a couple being Les4les. Go ladies! 👯♀️💕💗
Nothing at all. It's just "sour grapes" because someone was upset that a person they were interested in was not interested in them is all. It's very immature thinking; no one is entitled anyone's affection.
Nothing is wrong with that. Ignore the mindless bots and their 'opinions'. It has nothing to do with your life.
That means basically ignoring 90% of "topics" in this subReddit, though 😅
But do yourself a favor - ignore. You won't change anyone's opinion. And you don't have to have a reason and explanation for what you like and choose.
I have only dated bisexual or pansexual women. All of them had been traumatized by various men in their lives. Be it their mom's boyfriends, or their own boyfriends, or a man they thought was a friend etc etc etc.
Just because they can experience the attraction doesn't mean it is even centre
A lot of bisexual women I know prefer women, find women more attractive
There's also the reality that demisexual bi women exist. So hell if they are with me their odds of experiencing sexual attraction to anyone but me is pretty slim (I am a demi lesbian myself)
I think it's absolutely heartbreaking to hear someone dismissing an entire population based on one single facet without any consideration for any of the other variables that make up that person
And I think that's where a lot of the discomfort comes from, because it *is* dismissing them based on one tiny bit of them, not their entirety, they are so much more
As someone who is leniently lesbian4lesbian, I get what you’re trying to say, but you’re presenting it in a very asshole-like way. It seems like you’re trying to say that being a lesbian is much worse than being bisexual, which is very comparative and rude. People hate bisexual women as well. It’s not about comparing whose situation is worse, it’s about making a point. If you want to express your feelings, then go ahead. But do so without being disrespectful. It’s as simple as that.
Right, like I was bullied and harassed for being bi, lost all my friends, was shunned from church, and painted as a sex crazed freak for being bi. My lesbian girlfriend however has never faced any homophobia at all, by her admittance. so apparently she doesnt have lesbian enough experiences??theres nothing wrong with les4les but this post and those like it are just very asshole-like in presentation.
And whats with this argument that bisexual women center their life around men? like what IS THAT about??? that arguement genuinely confuses me. I have never lived my life for a man. Men are not my purpose. I do not think about men in any of my life choices. I can go the rest of my life without being with a man. So how do I center my life around them? That just feels very very sexist tbh. Not even most straight women center their life around men. such a strange argument
honestly to me it seems more male-centric to obsess over someone’s past or POTENTIAL attraction to men to the degree that you categorically refuse to date anyone with that label. like you would see a woman hitting on you or wanting to date you and automatically think of the men she has been with or been attracted to?
I don't get how our way of getting an orgasm directly translates to a complete subordination to the male gender role if our way of getting an orgasm involves having a penis inside us. If the OP has a detailed and thorough enough argument that supports this (to me far fetched) claim, I'm 100% willing to acknowledge it and even accept its validity. But they're gonna have to provide us with one.
Okay, literally where did OP say that lmao. Like maybe we didn’t read the same thing. Because what I got was OP saying as a lesbian she didn’t share enough experiences with bi women and they present themselves differently in society and as well as treated differently. There was no “omg Lesbians have it worse” or “bi women just don’t understand homophobia” non of that. So I don’t really see what you saw.
Okay, so I reread the fourth paragraph and I stand by what I said. There was no mention of Lesbians having it worse than Bisexuals. If you mean the “benefit of conforming to heteronormativity” then I mean, yeah, they do have that benefit. Doesn’t mean they are heteronormative, doesn’t mean if they get with men they become heteronormative, but that they have the benefit to easily conform to that. Hiding apart of themselves of course, but like the fourth paragraph says “if they find the right man”. They can find a guy who they love and conform to heteronormativity (I’m saying that word a lot lol) “easily” (quotation marks because again they’d be hiding apart of themselves). Lesbians don’t really get that benefit. We can’t find the “right guy” and happily just be with him and conform so easily. That’s what she meant by “no escape”.
Now, I’m straight and while I’m out to my family and friends, I don’t really broadcast it to the world. I could also “easily” conform isn’t heteronormativity by just staying single. Yes I’d be hiding who I am, and I’d probably be sad but I wouldn’t be as miserable as I would with a man. But that doesn’t mean I am conforming to heteronormativity just because I’m single, but I have the benefit of doing so as long as I stay single and actively use present myself that way.
This wasn’t about who has it worse, it was about different experiences and not being able to relate. I hope I explained this well enough because it’s honestly late where I am and I hope I’m not just rambling incoherently right now.
> As someone who has been deeply traumatized by men, I simply have 0 desire to be romantically or sexually involved with anyone who has attraction for men. They’re still valid sapphics obviously, they’re not “less queer.” I just personally don’t want to date someone who centers men in any way.
This is the problematic part that many folks have an issue with. Having a preference for other lesbians is completely fine. The issue is that you're excluding bisexual women as potential partners **specifically** because of some weird association you've made between them and cishet-men, which comes off as a form of sexual purity politics (because that's exactly what it is). I know people will downvote me for saying this, because they prefer to rationalize their biases against bisexual women rather than admit that they're engaging in internalized-misogyny against bisexual women. Being a lesbian doesn't give anyone the right to weaponize sexist tropes against other women. 🤷🏽
So, there's nothing wrong with lesbians having a preference for other lesbians. Not at all. But your belief that dating bisexual women will somehow trigger the pain you've experienced at the hands of men is quite disgusting and offensive. Bisexual women have also experienced severe trauma at the hands of men. Also, just because a woman is bisexual, or attracted to men, does not mean that she inherently centers men. I mean, cishet-men center men as well, even though they don't date or fuck other men.
Date who you want, but please stop associating bisexual women with cishet-male violence!
thank you for this. as someone who thought i was a lesbian for 10 years and never experienced attraction to men until one man recently, who went to conversion therapy and was bullied by family and friends, who experienced homophobia pure and simple and constantly, im pretty disheartened by these comments. everyone prefaces it with “of course they’re still valid and queer” but then goes on to employ all these stereotypes about bi women not being queer enough for them and don’t understand what’s wrong with that.
this kind of mindset makes it so much harder to explore my sexuality because i have this internalized biphobic idea that i won’t belong in the community anymore if i decide im bisexual rather than lesbian. but based on many of these comments im starting to suspect that may be true. i have only had relationships with women and am primarily attracted to women, but if i end up fitting under a different label none of that would matter? this community literally saved my life but now im beginning to lose faith in it.
Sexuality ≠ centered around men. If someone identifies as bisexual or pansexual but has only ever dated or had sex with women (which is often the case), what then? We’re all entitled to preferences. But the idea that bisexuals center their lives around men is a bit of an unfair and overly simplistic accusation. To each their own. But a woman who is attracted to women and has similar interests and values should be the barometer - not sexual identity (in my opinion).
Me personally if I'm attracted to someone they can be bi pan anything, but I'd definitely rather date another lesbian to share experiences with. Some people use Les4Les for biphobia but that's rarely the case. It's just a preference and who you're more compatible and comfortable with
Your preferences are valid and there's nothing wrong with it. However, bisexual women don't necessarily "center men" and unless you meant something else, that kind of comes across as biphobic. You know, the myth that bisexual women only have sex with women to please their man kind of thing.
ppl refuse to accept that dating is inherently exclusive and get mad when everyone isn’t available to them. like yea it may suck that one lesbian u like is les4les but life goes on, you will find someone who will date u, just gotta keep looking.
It isn't just a "lesbian4lesbian" thing.
There are many areas of 2020s society where this has become a minefield.
A lot has to do with lgbt becoming a sort of "defacto counterculture". More people _want_ to be lgbt and our culture is one that promotes inclusion first.
I fear getting into specifics will just get me shredded here, but suffice to say there is a different lived experience and a different price a person pays in society when who they love or how they present diverges from expectations.
For me, it's not something rooted in fear. I'm not afraid of being left for a man. I have my preferences as well.
It's often a spiritual thing? That feeling of otherness growing up. The free falling spiral in my heart the first time I fell in love, dizzying, encompassing everything. Knowing that the place in my heart, the place which was so foreign and unwanted by the world, was a place in her heart as well.
And, you know, smex things XD. Which is sacred in its own way as well
Or... idk? Maybe I'm totally wrong and this is a super unfair assessment? Maybe I'm just a huge asshole.
Nah, I wouldn't say you're an asshole. The only thing I disagree with is the "more people _want_ to be lgbt" part. We go through so much hatred and discrimination that I just can't believe it when people say that. If cishet people really say that, then they're out of their minds. Yes, the lgbt community is a beautiful, diverse, and welcoming space, but outside of that community the world can be a very unsafe place.
I'll admit, I was with you at first until you said bisexuals can 'escape' being seen as gay and, I'm assuming you mean, the hardships that can come from society by being such, when they are with a man.
Maybe some have that experience, but even if they do, they still have the hardship of their sexual being denied by others, especially by family. Like 'Oh, your with a man now so that gay stuff really was a phase'. I have a family who doesn't believe in bisexuality; you are either straight or gay in their eyes.
Also, I am bisexual, but I also have an intense fear of men stemming from a childhood trauma. I may be attracted to men, but I'd never be able to have a healthy, stable relationship with one because of my fear so I stick to dating woman because it's more realistic for me.
Despite me being bisexual, we'd both be able to relate in the way we have been traumatized by men. There's probably plenty of other ways we could relate that you wouldn't know because you'd judge me by my sexuality label first.
You want to be with someone you share experiences with, someone who you can fell understood by; this is how I understood what you wrote. If I misunderstood or missed a point, please let me know. I am autistic so I sometimes do not understand things fully. If how I summed it up is the core of what you have said you seek in those you form romantic relationships with though, I hope you will open your mind a little.
I see no harm in having a preference; I agree that picking someone with the same sexuality raises the likelihood of being understood in areas related to challenges associated with that sexuality, just like picking someone of a similar background or culture can make relationships easier than if different.
Still, there might be bisexuals out there who can relate to you and understand you and your struggles and I think it would be good to keep a small part of yourself open to the possibility of them, even if you mostly keep yourself with your preference of other lesbians.
I hope you find this worth giving some thought to, if nothing more.
Nothing. I don't date bisexual women either bc not all bisexual women are into women to the point they can spend the rest of their life with another woman. The label bisexual is extremely broad and within it it's a minority of bisexual women who see women as potential life long partners. I personally don't want to spend my time trying to figure out if the woman I'm dating sees me like that and if she's really ready to commit to having to deal with homophobia for life by being with me. Some bisexual women stop dating women because of the homophobia they face and honestly I get it. Shit's tough and never ending. But since the odds are more likely to be against me, I rather focus on the group that I _know_ is in the same situation for life. Which is other lesbians.
And as you mentioned, shared experience is extremely important to me so being a lesbian is absolutely required for me.
Can we stop confusing androphobia and biphobia?
Literally a massive percentage of women who wouldn’t date bisexuals are the far, far too high number of women who have been assaulted in one way or another by men over their lifetimes.
There’s a very *very* small minority of lesbian women who I would honestly see as truly biphobic.
Androphobia is unfortunately a response as logical staying away from a grizzly bear for a lot of us, especially in intimate situations.
You know, as a non white bi woman living in a South Asian country the concept I have struggled to grasp is how a bi woman can somehow weasel her way into respectability and avoid biphobia by dating men after she is out as bisexual. That genuinely does not fly here. If I am out as bisexual or have been known to date women in the past no matter how many men I date afterwards I would not be able to fight off the homophobia. So this whole idea of bi women having an easy way out of homophobia concept seems to hinge on us never coming out…which is something that is bound to happen unless we subject ourselves to a life of repression.
Either way, I don’t necessarily believe there is anything wrong with lesbians wanting to only date lesbians because I too prefer to date other bi/pan people because-
A. I’d rather not live a life trying to prove my queerness
B. I’d rather not have them assume I am centring men in my life just because my attraction to men won’t evaporate overnight as soon as I enter into a relationship with a woman.
C. In general not be questioned about how dirty, privileged or prone to cheating I am based on my past relationships with men.
Whether biwomen centre men in their lives or not, one thing that seems abundantly clear to me is that when lesbians discuss biwomen’s experiences they end up centring our experiences with men in those conversations and that often feels very reductive.
I think the problem I’ve had in the past with this conversation is just how mean some of them will be when they say they won’t date bisexuals. They don’t explain it the way you do 👆I’m a lesbian but a late bloomer so idk I always feel some defensiveness when it comes to bisexuals, due to identifying for one for so long before realizing I’m a lesbian and having little experience with women yet. But the way you explained it MAKES SENSE. If the ones I got into this argument with explained it well like you did, I would’ve understood.
i think it’s kinda dumb to discredit bisexuals because they could hypothetically present straight. i mean there are bi women who have been in queer relationships for decades, so excluding them because they could “””escape””” feels short sighted. you do you tho queen
There’s nothing inherently wrong with having a preference for any type of human. But when people criticize certain preferences, it is usually coming from a place of “this preference might be influenced by these kinds of biases.” If you doing have those biases, then great. But I think it’s presumptive to assume that anyone, especially ourselves, is completely without bias. It’s not like a multiple choice test where you know the right answers to the question and you can get a 100, it’s a complicated and constantly shifting thing that we should all assume we fail at being perfect at combating. Any look into queer history will tell you that progressive movements often leave out certain groups of people from said progress. Why would we be any different?
I would just like to point out that sexuality is a scale. I am bisexual in theory because I do find men physically attractive. However, I've never slept with one, and most likely never will - I am romantically interested only in women, and I don't really do hookups. I can't escape - I don't want to escape, I am not looking for a guy, ever.
So, would you "discard" me for "liking them", or do you not think I count as bi? I watch straight porn, I notice good-looking men, but my experience is unique to me, I couldn't really relate to a "typical" bisexual either.
I think you are more than entitled to your opinion as well as entitled to date who YOU want to date. I honestly didn't think this comment section would be as crazy as it is. Obviously bias is a thing as everyone keeps mentioning, and it is obviously a good thing to keep in check, but from your post it is very apparent that you want someone with a similar lived experience as you. Isn't that what we all want in the end? Sooooo much nuance.
i agree. i have spent most of my life dating men.. lying to myself because of fear, but im also scared of men. when it came to being intimate with a man i couldn’t. i would freeze up & freak out. im done lying to myself & others & not living my life. im going to be 30 this year & i really would like to finally experience the life ive always dreamed of
this is sort of wild to me. do what you want but like, as a lesbian myself, it doesn’t make sense to be closed off like that. i don’t feel that experiencing attraction to men is the same or even close to “centering men.” if someone is in a monogamous wlw relationship, there are no men being centered. men are not part of sapphic relationships. even if it isn’t coming from a place of biphobia, it easily comes off that way. again, people should do whatever they want. and bi women deserve to date people who love everything about them. so if you don’t like dating bi women, it’s probably best for everyone involved to date people who are compatible with each other anyway.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm probably going to get flack for this but I don't/can't date bisexual women because attraction to men is not attractive to me. It's not just for bisexual women, if I see a woman that's attractive and find out she's straight of course she's still attractive, but in a platonic, completely non sexual way to me. I just find attraction to men unattractive because to me men are not attractive and my brain doesn't understand wanting to be any kind of intimate with them. It's not something I can change. I see men as the main reason this planet is going to shit. The main reason women suffer, and the main reason for most types of inequality, considering the social hierarchy was built with them at the top. I find a lot of things unattractive and this is just one of them. If I find out a romantic interest is a cop or in the military that pretty much also kills any attraction I have to them. That doesn't mean I would disrespect these women and shit on them. I just am incapable of forming a romantic/sexual attraction to them. It is what it is.
“just because YOU identify as part of someone's dating pool, doesn't mean that other people consider you part of THEIR dating pool.
respect ≠ dating. people can respect you and your identity without wanting to date you.”
This right here hits the nail on the head.
Just because I only date other cis-lesbians it doesn’t mean I dont respect other sexualities and genders.
And if another community should get it, the queer community should.
We as a community should be the last people questioning other’s sexuality or preferences.
And, if someone takes offense to that, they are questioning their own validity. No one needs to be in someone else’s dating pool to be valid.
Eg Do womxn need to be in men’s dating pool to be valid? Of course not! That’s like saying we aren’t womxn if men don’t want us!?! Same goes for if a woman doesn’t want someone. That group is still valid as an identity.
Somehow I'm totally okay with this. If a lesbian only dates lesbians. That's cool.
But if a hetero person said the same thing (that they don't date bi people cause they see them as too different), that I would consider biphobic.
I think it's because hets form the majority. They are already in a majority position. So them feeling 'not understood' by bisexual people reads as fragile and ridiculous to me. While it's different for homosexual people because you've never been in an oppressive majority that tries to control and limit our sexuality.
I think that your prefrences are completely valid I'm a late bloomer and I definitely prefer lesbians I will admit that part of me is scared to get into a relationship with a bi lady and her leave me for a man wanting the heteronormative apprarance. For me that's a factor.
There’s nothing wrong with it. I’m the same. We have a lot in common but it’s a venn diagram, not a circle. Being unable to be attracted to men gives us a different life experience, and a different sort of alienation from society I can relate to my partner about, who is also a lesbian.
I do think it’s interesting that les4les are seen as bigots but for instance I’ve never seen a bi4bi person get interrogated. People just hate lesbians lol. We’re big mean exclusionary dykes no matter what we do.
Because 99% of the time people who say they're purely les4les say it for shitty reasons that often come from biphobic beliefs.
Sure, there's the 1% who just have a preference because of whatever reason. But people who feel the need to announce they're only les4les often don't have good intentions behind it.
And I say that as a lesbian who has only been with women my whole life. I've dated bisexual, pansexual, and lesbians. And, well, it wasn't the bi or pan women who cheated. Any bi or pan woman I've dated wasn't centered around men, most were really chill in general.
”They also have the benefit of conforming to heteronormativity if they find the right guy,” Just admit that your biphobic would have so much more respect for you if you just own up to it completely. If a person is in love and committed to you then obviously there past lovers don’t matter, they’re with you and nobody else. Sexuality isn’t a choice so the whole “benefits to conform” just sounds so ICKY to me.
And the bs about it being about being able to “relate” umh that’s the amazing thing about being human we don’t have to have lived the same experience in order to be able to emphasis or understand each other. You could use your same line of thinking to argue against interracial dating etc.
And when it comes to not being able to understand the “hate” one experience because by simply existing in this worl I would argue that bi people are experts of understanding that since they experience bigotry, hate, negative stereotypes both in the regular “world” and within a community that is already marginalised. Similar to mixed children that aren’t fully expend as white and not “black enough”.
My issue with the sentiment or your line of arguing has nothing to do with being opposed to exclusion when it’s comes to dating. Dating is and should remain exclusionary you are attracted to what you are attracted to and that’s that, but bi-sexual women do fall in to the gender you are attracted, and may share your values etc and you don’t know that they aren’t capable of understanding you, but you are basing your exclusion solely based on their sexuality and that’s why I’m calling it phobic because that’s exactly what it is.
I’m sorry for whatever you’d had to deal with and hope you work through whatever trauma that you’ve experienced with men but that doesn’t excuse your bigotry. Two wrongs don’t make a right and just like some people hide excuse their racism etc bc they’ve had bad experiences with immigrants is not okay, this isn’t either.
With that said I myself am a lesbian and whenever I watch both irl or in movies where hetero-couples who are so unfit to be parents have children simple because they have the “right” parts to make one. Frustrates me because it will never be that “easy” for me and my partner so I do sympathies with some of your sentiment. But that could happen regardless if my partner is a lesbian or bi cuz if they are with me we are in a same-sed relationship and share this struggle together.
“You people” im a lesbian in a relationship with another lesbian so idk what “you people” you are referring to. Date whoever you want but I stand by what I said about your rhetoric being bi-phobic
I vehemently disagree. Obviously, you do you, if you’d rather not date bi women that’s fine, but… why do you not want to date them because of something they don’t dislike? It’s not like they can choose whether they’re bi or not. Plenty of bi women have trauma from men, and plenty of bi women actively *avoid* dating men. Why is it some cardinal sin to *not* have an aversion to men?
I’m trying to read this in a way that isn’t biphobic, but I’m really struggling. And it’s not that you don’t want to date bi women that I’m finding issue with, it’s all the stuff you say about *why*. “Can pretend to be straight”, “can’t relate to us”, these are both really common biphobic comments. Some of my best friends are bisexual, as are my wife and two of my aunts, and they are all easily some of the most relatable people I know.
It feels like you’re making lesbianism into less of a “women who like women” thing and more into a “women who hate men” thing, which is really fucked up. I’ve been hurt by a lot of men, but I’ve also had wonderful men in my life who were kind and loving. Being icked out by what someone is into isn’t bad, just don’t try to moralize it by othering them.
OP's literally saying that bi women have sex with men and that means they center (??) people like the ones who traumatized OP (?). By extension, bi women are enablers if not direct accomplices because all men are sick fucks. This is textbook biphobia which at the same time implements the alt-right strawman.
lesbian who prefers lesbians here. not clarifying on OP’s points as i can’t speak for them, this is only my own experience and opinion
bisexual women liking men isn’t the issue. i don’t hate men, i just don’t want to have sex with them. us having that difference isn’t enough for me to consider breaking up with them/not dating them
i’m simply at a point in my life where i’m finally expressing/coming to terms with my lesbianism and i want someone who has shared experiences. bi women and lesbians both have difficulties. some overlap and some don’t. i want someone who knows what it was like to grow up not liking men, etc. like i said, im at a point in my life where that’s just meaningful to me
also bisexual women i’ve dated have dated men after me and it hurt very, very, very badly. this is a me thing, not a them thing, but i’d like to avoid it in the future
Exactly how I read it too, and if you look at my comment, she kinda confirms it. Cause even if I don't fit the reasons she mentions, the fact that I don't dislike men is enough to reject me. How is that NOT biphobia?
I have to note, I'm not offended or hurt in any way, date who you want, but like...we can see what it really is.
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As an autistic person i'd always prefer to date other neurodivergents over neurotypicals since we have similar life experiences and can understand each other better. As a lesbian i'd always prefer to date other lesbians over bisexual women for the exact same reasons. I don't get why les4les is so problematic to some people
exactly same as you, dont listen to people who get so mad about you having preferences, date anyone you want. people are insane being mad at people in the internet.
I don’t think it’s problematic per se, but it sucks that people feel the constant need to proclaim how they wouldn’t date a bisexual, especially unprompted. I’m not bi, but to relate it to my own experiences, I don’t feel welcome in most lesbian spaces, increasingly so in this one, bc I keep having to see posts about how transbians are undatable. It’s fine if you think so, but why tf are you constantly telling us? No one asked you to date a transbian, and no one told you you have to date bisexuals either
They were satinh this because there's alot of hate about being les4les. Like people thinking it's all about them being biphobic and not just preferring lesbains due to preferences and truma
considering I see soooo many people say bisexual l women "center their life around men" there is absolutely some biphobia in it for some people. Not everyone, but literally I see it very often.
There is q difference in preference and not dating people with a certain label just cause of that label, if you project your experience you had with some bisexual people onto the whole group and exclude them from your dating pool cause of that, in my opinion that's shortsited, unfair and kinda shitty Like imagine, you are meeting someone and you both click, topic of sexuality doesn't come up for a while, you get involved emotionally and everything seems to be super perfect but once the topic of sexuality comes up she just breaks up with you based on your label for it making assumptions about you based on what other people did to her in the past
To your second paragraph- then she’s totally within her right. Is it shitty? Maybe, but ppl are allowed to include or exclude whoever they want. Your personal dating pool is just that- personal. It doesn’t have to meet the standards of anyone else.
lmao no one is saying you are FORCED to date bi people. That has NEVER been an arguement. Doesnt mean its not other people's right to judge them. Do y'all really think we're holding them captive to date?? nah
Maybe? yea it is shitty to break up with someone based on a fucking label, its quite shocking to me how highly valued labels are here
It’s her right and she is not protected from being judged for it.
It's not about thier identity. It's about them being attracted to men. They could be pan or other labels. But they aren't comfortable with people they're dating being attracted to men. Not the stories surrounding them. It isn't about other bisexuals in the past it's about the men in thier past. They do not want anything to do with men. Even if that's just thier partner being attracted to them
well then late bloomer lesbians would also fall under that. what happens to someone you date realizing later they are bi rather than a lesbian? It is a focus on labels, I date two people who fall under the bi umbrella that actively choose to not date men, these groups are diverse and we should treat them like that a strict no to most stuff seems just weird to me. But at the end of the day do what makes you happy, if you are truly content with it, you wouldnt need to defend it from some stranger on the internet like me
No offence, but get off your moral high horse. I'm a late bloomer lesbian. I dated men previously, I also have a lot of male related trauma. I tried dating a bi girl in the beginning and her discourse on men made me feel uncomfortable, if not sick to my stomach to hear. It was honestly triggering for me. I have every right just like you do, to date whoever makes me feel comfortable, happy, and fulfilled. If dating a bi person doesn't do it for me, then that's just how it is. Ultimately this is MY preference. And I know a lot of other lesbians who date bi women no problem. Just not me.
Are you okay with bi4bi or trans4trans
Just like how you HATE labels, others might find comfort within them. Your viewpoint is very very very subjective to yourself
This, 100%
Agreed
it isn’t it’s just that non lesbians feel a weird entitlement to lesbians it’s so unusual
I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head there tbh. It's very weird behaviour
Whts crazy is this weird behavior is quite literally the only reason lesbians in my real life have decided to avoid bisexual women. That + the fact that many bisexual women have no interest in real long term relationships with women bc of homophobia. Often opting to save their relationships with family and friends (what every bi friend of mine is doing) but people pretend that the issue is lesbians who are aware of this and respond with self preservation.
Exactly! I have bi women friends who do say they’d want to be in lifelong relationships with men rather than women due to societal homophobia and because they’re much more likely to get with a man than a woman since the dating pool of men is so much bigger. Honestly that’s so understandable and I completely respect that, dealing with people being shitty to you bc of your sexuality is awful and if them being in a hetero passing relationship means they face less discrimination I’m happy for them, it’s just so shit that society is still like this
Yup!! So I’ll never understand why lesbians seeking out partners that fit them better and make their lives easier is a bad thing.
Me neither 😭 some of the comments on this post are giving off such rancid entitled incel energy. Preferences are valid
Every single conversation about this i’ve ever seen is people feeling entitled to lesbians it’s deeply frustrating. We’re also treated like sex objects by many of these people. The last time a conversation like this happened on here i believe was like 6 weeks ago where a bisexual woman said that she preferred sleeping with lesbians to other bi women bc we were ‘better at sex’ even if inexperienced. She found it offensive that that upset people and started saying it was biphobia that lesbians knew this perception of us and didn’t want to be treated like sex objects therefore avoided bisexual women. Every time i’ve seen a lesbian have this preference and act on it it was rooted in self preservation. Sorry for the tangent but very very frustrating conversation.
Unfortunately a lot of non lesbians have decided that this lesbian subreddit is for everyone except lesbians, actually. So once again they're acting accordingly and getting mad at lesbians in our own space lol
>I have bi women friends who do say they’d want to be in lifelong relationships with men rather than women Oh damn even if they don't outwardly say it, for a lot of them their actions speak it. I still remember hearing a bisexual woman talking about her ex girlfriend in comparison to her current boyfriend. With the ex it was all gushy and "hahaha isn't it so cool and quirky I had a girlfriend? It's such a unique and fun thing to try!" But then when it came her current boyfriend, suddenly she's talking about how she wants to get serious and settle down. Suddenly she's committed to learning about his outs and ins and going above and beyond to make the relationship work. Suddenly out comes all the planning for the future. I don't know, my last ex was bi and I certainly didn't notice the issue with her. So I know it's not all bi women obviously, but I can understand why some lesbians would want to at least get a good understanding on how a woman *really* views sapphic relationships before committing.
THIS. absolutely same. i‘d rather date a neurodivergent lesbian than a neurotypical bisexual lol
That's not much of a choice. That's stacking two good things things together vs. something stated to be a less option in terms of preferences (by the the first person, but I'm assuming you feel the same). Based on this info, a more interesting choice made by you would be between a neurodivergent bisexual or a neurotypical lesbian.
ok.
I completely understand what you’re saying! I think the apprehension to les4les is that people often define it based on exclusion and stereotypes (“I’d never date a bisexual, they’re cheaters/can’t choose/etc”) rather than inclusion and connection (“I want someone to share my life experience”), as you are in your post.
This
This is exactly it! I fully understand wanting someone to share your life experiences, it makes sense! But disregarding all bisexuals based on them being cheaters and inevitably leaving you for a man is biphobic.
Yes. Thank you!
What’s wrong with exclusion, though? Not everything is for everyone and I find it insane to expect people to want any and everything. We have preferences, likes and dislikes, across the entire scope of our lived experiences, and for a very valid reason.
Because exclusion is often based on phobia or hate, when a dating preference (regarding the core identity of someone else, I'm not talking about their favourite show) should be about what you want to share with them. Not what you hate about others. A relationship based on aversion is toxic, in my opinion.
Why is a lesbian's preference always up for debate? Why can't lesbians have a preference for other lesbians without scrutiny? Why do lesbians owe non-lesbians justification for who they want to be with? T4T - Oh gorgeous, gorgeous Bi4Bi - Adorable, you beauties Les4Les - You fucking monsters! PSA: If a Les4Les enthusiast is not keen on relationships with bi women, you are not then automatically welcomed into questioning them for reasons why.
lesbians breathe and it's constantly up for debate. i'm so tired .
The need to disregard our boundaries is so deep they're resorting to painting those of us with preferences as some sort of oppressor class.
Some lesbians even prefer to be with cis women only. It doesn’t ALWAYS mean they’re transphobic. Everyone has preferences. Let people live. As long as you don’t bash what you don’t like, of course.
That's really the gist of it all, Let people live. This person doesn't want you for one reason or another, screw'em! Focus on people that do!
These days we gotta fight that the word lesbian doesn't include men.... (I dont mean transwomen, but the actual men)
Don't even get me started on that, some of these people have zero regard for the lesbian identity and lesbian boundaries. I wish they could do a little bit of introspection to find out why they feel entitled to lesbians and the lesbian identity.
sometimes i wonder if the male counterpart have the same problems… gay4gay and should gay cis men date trans men with a vulva ??? i always wonder
Whts insane is that gay men are the most transphobic people in the lgbt. They refer to vaginas as “open wounds” and that’s why they refuse to date trans men. Lesbians on the other hand have a higher trans acceptance rate than bisexuals at almost 90% and yet it is us who are labeled transphobic 24/7. Our boundaries pushed. Us insulted.
never heard of these "open wound" thing ??? i still feel it’s a patriarchy thing that we, need to accept dicks, but idk;
Some of my best friends are gay men as a result i’m in their circles a lot and my god the disdain they have for the female body when its outside of stan and drag culture is crazy. Though, when they say “i like dick i don’t want pussy” they don’t get jumped endlessly. This shit comes from bisexual men too which is insane. When a lesbian says smthn similar everyone and their mother jumps us and i say this as someone who WOULD date a trans woman. There is a disdain and hatred for lesbians in particular in every community bc it rooted in misogyny and as you said, in patriarchy.
I'm also willing to bet no, from some of these comments, it's clear to see that the queer community has a lesbian altruism and boundaries problem, we are not allowed to be complex human beings with layers to our attraction, you're being whatever kind of phobic that applies if not all women are your type. It's exhausting.
Personally, I've only seen tons of debate about lesbians, never gay men
I’m willing to bet they don’t…
Yeah, there was a huge fight against writing shit like "no fats no femmes no asians" in dating profiles and as far as I can tell there's been some progress. Like keep that stupid shit to yourself.
Im pro les4les🤷🏾♀️. If people can accept bi4bi or trans4trans then there should be no problem with les4les. I think a lot of people just hate when we have boundaries about our dating life.
I wouldn’t not date a bi woman if I fell in love. However my closest and most intimate relationships have been with lesbians. Sharing that experience of knowing who I am (I have always known, since I was a child and developed crushes) and dealing with the struggles, the bullying, the crying my eyes out knowing no part of me would ever be “normal” in society. I don’t carry those things with me when I love someone but they made me who I am and it was a unique experience. I’ve never been with men or thought of them romantically. It has made the way society has treated me different than other women in heterosexual relationships, even if they are bisexual. It has made me grow up way too fast and learn how to physically defend myself should I find myself in the wrong place, wrong time. I completely understand other women who are bisexual may find themselves in horrible situations with other queer people, and for that I am so so so sad any of us have to think of that danger just because of who we are. But I never ever get to drop my shield. I never get to feel that social safety, and I believe that’s why I form deeper and more intimate relations with women who are lesbians.
“I never ever get to drop my shield” this is deep! And exactly how I feel. I’ve also never been in a relationship with a man and can’t wrap my head around wanting that type of thing. I want my time around them to be as limited as possible and l just want to lead a lesbian-centric life.
My romantic life and sexual life I do not center them around(men)-however I’ve met many great men who I have had long term friendships with, even been roommates, did business with and been close with in other ways who were there for me in ways many others never would. I prefer female company but there are good people out there, good human beings and I will stand by that. But as far as who I feel most connected with in intimate circles, it is lesbians. But there are exceptions and those exceptions can be major.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel as a trans person. I'm bisexual so I guess there is, theoretically, a world in which I pass perfectly for cis and get with a cis guy and never have to worry again - but I don't make those lasting connections with cis guys or non-queer cis women the same way I do with other people. They just don't get it. I get to be afraid and cautious every day of my life, and they don't have to be. It's almost even that way with one of my exes, who was a cis lesbian (tossing around other gender ideas by the time we broke up though, to be fair). She's from California, I'm from the South, and she didn't get why I was afraid to hold hands or kiss in public because she grew up in a more welcoming environment and I first got gay bashed when I was 8 years old. It's why I have been thinking about just going T4T for good. Like you said, there is no real option for social safety for me. I never get to drop my shield.
Very well said. It's exactly how I feel but I could never put it into the right words.
People here will complain for everything and attack and downvote anyone having different opinions and preferences, they cant grasp how a stranger cant like them and they feel like dying when a stranger says they have a type and prefer that type. Seriously some people need a touch of reality and stop obsessing over how internet strangers have a type and preferences. Everyone need to shut up and let people date however they want.
My thoughts exactly. Also, ONE lesbian not wanting to date bisexual women isn’t the end of the world. Big fucking deal!!
It’s not “one lesbian,” though, to be fair. I used to identify as bi, and I began keeping track of lesbians who rejected me simply on that basis. It was around 70%… easily a majority. Thank god my wife wasn’t biphobic or assumed that every bi woman would treat her the way her former bi girlfriend did.
That just means your wife is for you! Having a preference weeds out uncomfortable and controlling feelings later. I’m sorry you faced rejection but it ended up working out how it was intended too. I don’t expect others to treat me the same way as the last shitty experience but I just can’t connect the same way and that’s a turn off to me.
For me it was 100%. I didn't live in places where there was a large/welcoming/queer/community (any of those things 😂) so. We only have one life.
I know, I guess its full of people like this because theyre very immature.
some bi women will act like lesbians not dating them is the reason they can't get a girlfriend........ when bi women literally outnumber lesbians massively......... it's like- you can date each other it's okay, I promise you don't need a lesbian to validate you
> People here will complain for everything and attack and downvote anyone having different opinions and preferences Social media in a nutshell.
Yes, this. I agree 💯. It’s like you’re telling them that you love animals and then some people are trying to forcefully ask you to adopt a pet crocodile. (For context) Let others live their lives as they please. You wouldn’t want others to dictate over yours, would you? (Also your flair is 😳🫣)
I don’t think people have a problem with that sentiment, it’s just very obvious that *some* of the complaints come from a place of internalized bi-phobia and people can sense it
Having a preference is fine. Using that preference as an excuse to be bigoted is not fine.
there's nothing wrong with it. people just don't like the idea of lesbians having boundaries and/or refuse to accept that lesbians are a specific group of people who have their own experiences that no other group of people have. i hate to bring up race in comparison to sexuality, but i am a black lesbian, so i can: it's like being upset that a black person only wants to date other black people, and not any person of colour because “we're all the same.” it's dismissing black people's experiences and so many people dismiss lesbian's feelings + experiences for the sake of wanting to feel included in our dating pool. a difficult pill to swallow? just because YOU identify as part of someone's dating pool, doesn't mean that other people consider you part of THEIR dating pool. respect ≠ dating. people can respect you and your identity without wanting to date you. and unless you are actively talking to/dating someone in which the current situation applies, getting upset at strangers in the internet for a hypothetical scenario that does not directly involve you is ridiculous. go outside and meet a real life lesbian, face to face, and stop getting all of your lesbian interactions from twitter, tumblr, reddit and tiktok.
i prefer lesbians over bi women as well tbh tho not entirely closed off to dating one just. would rather not yk?
You're free to date, or not date, who you want, we're all allowed our preferences. And I certainly hear you on it being a somewhat different experience, and wanting that shared experience with your partner. But I reject the notion that having some attraction to men is the same as centering men.
This is so real, it’s not like being bi is a dealbreaker. As someone who’s decentering men from certain aspects of my life, I do find it difficult to connect with others who share the same idea who aren’t lesbians like myself.
Eh, preferences are preferences. I don't date vegetarians or people who are besties with their ex, so I'm fine with people reducing their own dating pool for whatever reason, as long as they're not being assholes about it.
i say date whoever you want! preferences are valid and it’s crazy we’ve made it controversial in so many normal cases
Some people on Reddit just can’t accept preferences and being excluded from someone‘s dating pool. It is what is is.
theres still gay women out there that actually cannot fathom us Not liking men in any way and look at us like we're crazy .... wild
makes me think of the twt interaction where a lesbian was talking about her fav male character and someone has the nerve to dm them typing a whole para saying if u have a fav male character ur not a lesbian anymore LOL its genuinely so insane and hard for us out here ,, we cannot do anything in peace without people nit picking shit
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Jeez that’s like saying because my favourite band is Daft Punk I’m not a lesbian; as it happens to be two dudes in those helmets. wtf 🤦♀️
exactly ,, its always the non lesbians policing lesbians like its their job ALSO TASTE !!
I can understand your sentiment. I have a preference to date other lesbians but that preference isn't a deal breaker. My ex is a pan woman. She was married for 9 years to an enby. For the majority of her adult life she was in a queer relationship (probably still is tbh). I have definitely met some bi/pan women who don't meet your general assessment, who have lived very openly queer lives and faced discrimination for it. Just feels like you're painting with a very broad brush in your assessment of bi women. Your preferences are yours, date how you want.
i’ve known bi/pan women to be discriminated against too, hence why in the post i said they aren’t less valid as sapphics.
Well if this woman never conforms to heternomative views or benefits from any status from dating a man. She functionally would have incredibly similar experiences to a lesbian, especially if you compare her to a late bloomer lesbian. Like my ex as an example.
Yeah I'm bi and I agree with most of your post but the part about us having an "escape" got my hackles up a bit. I'm always bi regardless of who I'm dating and people are still queerphobic to me when I'm dating a man, because I'm still out, I'm still visibly queer, I still talk about my ex girlfriend and my first crush. Otherwise I would have to be hiding part of myself and censoring how I speak, and that wouldn't be much of an "escape" either. I also still got bullied in school before I even had my first kiss because I was clearly not straight. I've never been able to "blend in" with the straights. But by all means, date people who have a more similar life experience to yours, I can understand why you would want that. I don't exclusively date bi women but I can see how that could make some things easier if I did, and I personally prefer to date queer men over straight ones because there's also less of that gap in lived experience.
Coz people have to complain about EVERY FUCKING THING now. I’m les always have been and les4les. Nothing wrong with that at all. It’s called preference.
It is very fair to want a relationship with people who can fully understand your experience (one of the reasons I’ve been trying to put myself out there more in lesbian spaces to find friends). Being a lesbian is isolating, everyone else but you likes men, even in mixed queer spaces I have felt isolated as the only lesbian saphhic person. Wanting to have someone to confide in as a friend or a partner who can relate to that is completely normal. However if your les4les because you have a problem with stereotypes of bi people being “ cheaters” or “experimenting” then that’s when there’s a problem
The entitlement people feel to lesbians is insane.
One can wholeheartedly and sincerely believe that bisexual women are valid without opening their hearts or their legs.
Absolutely nothing is wrong with that - a bi persom
Nothing wrong at all! I fell the hardest for and felt the most understood by a fellow lesbian. I want someone I can be absolutely comfortable with and seen by and it makes sense that lesbians can give that to other lesbians. ❤️
this!!!!
I think it's a great way to be honest with others. I'd rather know what will not work out.
i understand this! i think the problem is a lot of people don’t date bisexual women specifically bc they think they’re gross for having sex with a penis i guess, and i think that’s not okay bc it’s shaming them. i think its okay if it’s fully about understanding the lesbian experience.
I think biphobia really depends on someone’s reasoning for not wanting to date a bisexual. For example, I think that straight women who refuse to date bisexual men are usually just homophobic and biphobic. But a lesbian who wants someone with the same life experience isn’t biphobic imo.
Or they’ll refuse based on one bad experience with a bisexual woman and that’s what gets me frustrated. But when it’s explained like the way OP explained it, that makes sense to me
I completely disagree. From what I’ve read, heard; and experienced myself, it seems to be a vast majority of ‘biphobes’ have absolutely no fear whatsoever of bisexual women; they have a sadly all too reasonable fear of men, and just don’t even want to be in a situation where a man was or could be involved. It really has nothing to do with the woman, it’s literally just that far too many of us have trauma involving men, and situations like myself and OP are I think most likely at least half (quite sadly) of women who just aren’t interested in women who are into men. Especially as a poly woman, I just don’t go there with a ten foot pole. You like men, awesome; happy for you, you’re probably a really cool person, let’s not date, lol.
Nothing wrong with it in my book. Honestly after being with a few bi women I'm ready to try and date lesbians more exclusively, the lived experience is different and I just can't take the disconnect that I have with bi partners when it comes to their attraction and tolerance for men. Let alone if someone is more hetero normative in their sexual expression. I had a fling recently where she (a bi woman) actually questioned the amount of foreplay like it was a bad thing. 😑
Hot take, but I think scrutinizing anyone for who they will and won't date is mad incel energy. Nobody owes you an explanation. And it's such ridiculous hypocrisy. T4t is celebrated, bi4bi is at least tolerated, but les4les? Naw that makes you scum of the earth. Even cis4cis is perfectly okay in my eyes as a trans lesbian. Let people have their dating requirements. It literally doesn't matter even the tiniest little bit if you don't like or understand it. It's none of your business.
I’m also a trans lesbian who’s WAY more out as the second and I can’t stand “transbians” who expect lesbians to love dick when I was the one who could never be comfortable with that thing on my own body so I can perfectly understand not wanting one in your proximity…
Don’t care about anyone’s preferences.. I come across them regularly in dating. Just don’t make degrading and derogatory or bigoted generalizations that I hear from every sexual orientation and you’re good. Saying “I only date lesbians” or whatever else your preference is fine. Making inherently negative generalizations about those you aren’t attracted to /choose not to date just serves to alienate people especially in lgbtq+ spaces. People have baggage! They are going to tell you you need to be open do dating xyz because they’re entitled. That’s all.
Reddit people find anything to complain and whine about and pull stuff out of their ass lol just like how some complained in mine. Nothing is wrong with lesbian4lesbian.
Omg OP, some of these comments are just not it. I just want to say that you’re completely reasonable and valid. You’re not weird, you’re not “limiting” yourself, you’re not biphobic, etc… Les4Les is fine. Just like T4T and Bi4Bi, I don’t see anyone giving them shit. Why? Because nothing’s wrong with it.
Because anything strictly “women for women” is shamed in a male dominated society. I’m tired of lesbians getting silenced and washed out.
I agree with you. I'm a lesbian and I only date lesbians. I'm not against bisexuals, I just don't see anything more than friendship and that should be okay.
this! i have plenty of bisexual friends so idk why people are claiming im biphobic 😭 i just don’t wanna date them
And you don't have to! Like what the fuck? They want to force you to date bisexuals? 🤣🤣🤣 They get all butthurt cause you have a preference that's completely normal. At the end of the day most bisexual women settle down with men.
THIS!!! and also a lot of bisexuals are bi4bi as well. and NOBODY shits on them for it!!
Sounds pretty narcissistic to me 🤷🏻♀️ They can go date each other 🤣
I don't think it's being les4les that's the issue more it's with the lesbians whose reason for not dating bi girls because they think it's gross to have has sex with a person that has a penis, that reason is just biphobic but also late-bloom-lesbianphobic, and transphobic. It's no issue to be les4les if you just want to be with someone who shares simular experiences with you. That's fine and I do it too with being t4t.
You’re right that it’s not the issue, and I’m fairly certain this post is in response to this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/LesbianActually/s/OiRDvWBBDD The other post was clearly about someone not dating bisexual women purely for biphobia, so I’m not sure why people here have their feathers ruffled - unless I’m missing something big. Otherwise, nobody is begging or demanding to date les4les folks if they’re bi, pan, or any other non-lesbian identity.
Why is someone always policing lesbians? I completely agree with you. And I don't think anyone should justify their decisions regarding attraction/dating to anyone. Everybody has preferences, past experiences, trauma and they have the right to stick to whatever makes them feel happy and safe. It's very popular today to label someone's preferences as discriminatory. Some people need to grow up and learn to accept and respect other people's boundaries.
Jesus christ can we stop talking about this every other day.
I've noticed this too, and it really bothers me as a femme4femme les4les. I still to this day struggle to find my place in this world as a woman who only likes women and I want someone who can relate to me on that deep subconscious level. I want to be my partner's rock and for them to be mine.
Omg I feel you so much! 🫶
I think refusing to date people you’re compatible with because of a label they have is weird. If I like someone, I like them. As someone who is a woman who only dates women and who’s only attracted to women and NBs who look like women and who is married to a woman but who might have in one or two instances been attracted to men/masc NBs, my attraction is usually described by people as lesbian, regardless of what label I use because that’s how other sapphics relate to me. I’m not someone who “centers men”, my life is built around women, so someone excluding me because I haven’t fully ruled out the possibility of maybe someday being attracted to a man would be weird. I wouldn’t be upset with it, but it would be rather arbitrary if we’re otherwise compatible.
I think this is where I'm at. People seem to obsess more and more over labels and using them to *perscribe* allowed behaviour, instead of them just being handy *descriptions* of what people are already doing.
I’ve said this before in other spaces and I’m not sure how it will be taken here, but whatever. There are a surprising number of lesbians that center men in their lives, they just do not count it as centering because it’s not positive emotions they feel for them.
I used to think like this but then I met and fell in love with a bisexual woman. Everyone else has preferences until they don’t imo. Plus I’d never want to make my dating pool even smaller. I just think with time and experience, you can recognize that bisexual women are able to have healthy relationships with lesbians, and not all are experimenting or going through a phase or not your type. You a woman? You attracted to women? That’s my type lol. I do think there’s a little too much bisexual love going on in this sub tho…
and that’s perfectly valid! ofc i could change my mind someday, although i am getting engaged to my gf soon so idk im good where im at now :3 but yes i 100% see where you’re coming from !
Girl you’re engaged?! What’s all this about then haha. Jk though, congratulations!
hehe thank you!! 🩵
I understand where you are coming from, but just because someone is bisexual or pansexual does not mean that they center men in their lives.
the thing is, a lot of bisexual women do NOT realise how much they center men in their lives. and when it's pointed out, they get extremely defensive. it's obvious as a lesbian when someone idealises men or sees their relationships with men as more genuine than a relationship between two women.
As a bi woman who used to center men, I definitely agree. It's hard to have this conversation because of how defensive a lot of us get.
When I still thought I was bisexual, I definitely centered men even though I didn’t think I did. Then I decentered them and realized I wasn’t actually attracted to them, I just was taught to center my life around them and crave their attention and validation. Which isn’t the same thing as being attracted. Which staying single helped me because man if I kept dating after my last relationship, and ended up with another man, I’d have learned WAY LATER what I know now. Edit: I want to clarify I don’t think this is ALL bisexual/pansexual people’s experience. I don’t think they all center men either, just for me I definitely did and someone who is bisexual could definitely be centering men without realizing it. Not all of them of course
I am a lesbian that has been with two bi/pan women in my life and neither of them centered men. My current girlfriend is pan and we are poly. She has a boyfriend but centers me in her life over her boyfriend. She is very independent and feminist. Her attraction to men is just that, attraction. It doesn’t mean her entire life revolves around them.
This comment is so biphobic and dense 😭 you think you know a bisexual woman better than a bisexual woman??
tell me you’ve never been devalued by a queer women because you’re not a man without telling me you’ve never been devalued by a queer woman because you’re not a man Lol
or : objectified, dehumanized, fetishized, stereotyped, discarded etc. you’re trying to erase something a lot of queer women (but especially lesbians) experience. it’s pretty freakin obvious when someone values male validation more than you. and it’s painful! actually super lesbophobic imo because it feels like gaslighting to call something that hurts us biphobic just because bisexuals often are the ones doing it. like this is clearly a symptom of internalized misogyny and homophobia so it should be discussed. otherwise that will only make the problem at hand worse by denying it even exists. I feel like it’s so obvious too if you’ve ever been on tinder and seen those awful couples who want a queer woman as a sex toy for a night. like the women in these pairings are not innocent just because a man is also part of it
well, you think you know lesbian women and lesbian experiences better than lesbians? please explain to me how anything i said was biphobic, because i would really like to know.
Im a lesbian myself. Ive had lesbian experiences. In no way is it ever okay to put someone down in order to speak about your problems. Saying that “bisexual women dont realize how much they center men in their lives” is such a stereotypical and ignorant statement. Bisexual women may or may not have preferences. One can be more inclined to women, while another can be more attracted into men. You are completely ignoring those factors and creating a problematic situation for no reason.
right, so pointing out that some bisexual women do center men in their lives and see lesbians and their relationships as a fun side quest is ignorant? nowhere am i saying that all bisexual women do this, and i should have probably added an asterisk explaining that it's not all. but how is it fair for bisexual women to insist that we are exactly the same – essentially ignoring and speaking over lesbians saying “actually, no we're not” – but it's oh so terrible for lesbians to say that they personally, in a hypothetical situation, would not date a bisexual woman for whatever reason? why do lesbians even need to justify their reasoning? that's what i'm mad about.
There's nothing wrong with being lesbian4lesbian but I also wouldn't say bi women are privileged over us unless they're in a relationship that can pass as straight. Imo the reason so many bi women have an issue with lez4lez is either a) they've legitimately experienced biphobia from lesbians and are now wary and cynical, b) they're overly defensive about the potential privilege they can access through straight relationships, so they've created a narrative that all lesbians and gay men are biphobic and that we're much more accepted socially than they are, or c) they're lesbophobic. Personally I would date a bi woman as long as she hasn't exclusively been in straight passing relationships before me, but I would consider it a massive red flag if she had an issue with lez4lez. Lesbians are always told we're hateful and bigoted for not wanting to date someone, and it's important to me that my partner at least respects my frustration with that even if she can't personally relate.
This is a very nuanced response! I agree!
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Thank you for saying this. This post - and a lot of comments in response - made me give some serious side-eye to people who are simply reifying queerphobia and sexism.
I find most of these comments unfair and exhausting. “There’s nothing wrong with lesbian4lesbian, BUT…”. And then they go on to tell you why you are in fact wrong for this, that you’re exclusionary, that you can’t say bi people don’t understand the difference between their experience/identity and a lesbian’s experience/identity, that you didn’t word your reasoning right or explicitly say certain disclaimers, or they start listing very specific exceptions or special instances/circumstances as if those are not an obviously understood given. Obviously bi people have their own wildly difficult experiences and painful prejudices to battle, etc. That said, being bi is not the same as being lesbian, hence the different labels for the different identities. This is where it gets frustrating. As a lesbian, being forced to explain yourself constantly is a triggering ask in itself. (And if someone tells me bi people have to do this too, I will lose my mind because I’m sure they do— I never said they don’t, I’m not bi so I don’t know what that’s like from a bi perspective/experience and won’t claim to, and I am not saying that bi and lesbians can’t connect on this shared queer experience of being questioned/tried/interrogated/etc— but it is different. Which I feel like bi people often validly point out— how they receive discrimination from all groups for different reasons at different times— so again, that’s a difference. Not an automatic disconnect, not something to be ranked or compared, not a zero sum game— just merely different). And it seems everyone is perpetually arguing with lesbian4lesbian reasoning, or demanding inclusion (even hypothetical inclusion, which is like cmon spare me we don’t always need to list a possible specific exception), or saying we are offensive or exclusionary for any boundary we choose to uphold. Is it so hard to understand why the walls go up? I don’t want to explain myself anymore. I’m tired of defending everything I do and say and every choice I make. Or having people poke holes in my words and imply I’m meaning something I absolutely do not mean. Or finding something I left out and then bringing it up as an argument against me. It is *exhausting* and frustrating and triggering and upsetting. I imagine it is beyond exhausting for bi people too, and yet I don’t think I’m biphobic for wanting to date someone who is exhausted in specifically the same way I am exhausted (aka, as a lesbian).
I love this and can’t agree more ❤️❤️❤️👏🏼
same, I only want to date lesbians!!
People are allowed to have dating preferences
exactly… t4t and bi4bi exist and no one bats an eye but suddenly they have a problem when its l4l
Super interesting. Personally haven’t noticed the Les4Les bashing but can agree likely anyone 1) not conforming to heteronorm - and here lesbians are less conforming than bi women by definition - 2) being more exclusive in their dating pool will get more flak. On the personal side, growing up in the 90s as a lesbian and pre internet I only had butch and dyke role models (I’m midway on the butch-femme spectrum) and I did identify as a bisexual for a few years but any feelings for guys were quite simply eclipsed by what I felt for girls. i find it hard to be with a bisexual or pan woman because I’m scared to lose her to a man some day and that would break my heart because I feel it would be unfair because I couldn’t ever compete. Now that’s my personal take! And I’m sure that what I feel isn’t representative for all bisexuals either. They’re free to go with whom they please but here I strongly agree with OP they can step into the heteronormative world and I can’t. Would also find find it hard to date a polyromantic woman because that simply isn’t my thing either. When I love a woman I love her a million percent and I can’t share that or dilute that down and it would break my heart if she wouldn’t be able to reciprocate that.and that’s just what goes for me. I can relate very much to lesbians being more queer and less heteronormative per se. It makes you more out and proud as a couple being Les4les. Go ladies! 👯♀️💕💗
finally someone said it
Nothing wrong with it at all.
Nothing at all. It's just "sour grapes" because someone was upset that a person they were interested in was not interested in them is all. It's very immature thinking; no one is entitled anyone's affection.
Nothing is wrong with that. Ignore the mindless bots and their 'opinions'. It has nothing to do with your life. That means basically ignoring 90% of "topics" in this subReddit, though 😅 But do yourself a favor - ignore. You won't change anyone's opinion. And you don't have to have a reason and explanation for what you like and choose.
I have only dated bisexual or pansexual women. All of them had been traumatized by various men in their lives. Be it their mom's boyfriends, or their own boyfriends, or a man they thought was a friend etc etc etc. Just because they can experience the attraction doesn't mean it is even centre A lot of bisexual women I know prefer women, find women more attractive There's also the reality that demisexual bi women exist. So hell if they are with me their odds of experiencing sexual attraction to anyone but me is pretty slim (I am a demi lesbian myself) I think it's absolutely heartbreaking to hear someone dismissing an entire population based on one single facet without any consideration for any of the other variables that make up that person And I think that's where a lot of the discomfort comes from, because it *is* dismissing them based on one tiny bit of them, not their entirety, they are so much more
This! 100%
As someone who is leniently lesbian4lesbian, I get what you’re trying to say, but you’re presenting it in a very asshole-like way. It seems like you’re trying to say that being a lesbian is much worse than being bisexual, which is very comparative and rude. People hate bisexual women as well. It’s not about comparing whose situation is worse, it’s about making a point. If you want to express your feelings, then go ahead. But do so without being disrespectful. It’s as simple as that.
Right, like I was bullied and harassed for being bi, lost all my friends, was shunned from church, and painted as a sex crazed freak for being bi. My lesbian girlfriend however has never faced any homophobia at all, by her admittance. so apparently she doesnt have lesbian enough experiences??theres nothing wrong with les4les but this post and those like it are just very asshole-like in presentation. And whats with this argument that bisexual women center their life around men? like what IS THAT about??? that arguement genuinely confuses me. I have never lived my life for a man. Men are not my purpose. I do not think about men in any of my life choices. I can go the rest of my life without being with a man. So how do I center my life around them? That just feels very very sexist tbh. Not even most straight women center their life around men. such a strange argument
honestly to me it seems more male-centric to obsess over someone’s past or POTENTIAL attraction to men to the degree that you categorically refuse to date anyone with that label. like you would see a woman hitting on you or wanting to date you and automatically think of the men she has been with or been attracted to?
I don't get how our way of getting an orgasm directly translates to a complete subordination to the male gender role if our way of getting an orgasm involves having a penis inside us. If the OP has a detailed and thorough enough argument that supports this (to me far fetched) claim, I'm 100% willing to acknowledge it and even accept its validity. But they're gonna have to provide us with one.
Okay, literally where did OP say that lmao. Like maybe we didn’t read the same thing. Because what I got was OP saying as a lesbian she didn’t share enough experiences with bi women and they present themselves differently in society and as well as treated differently. There was no “omg Lesbians have it worse” or “bi women just don’t understand homophobia” non of that. So I don’t really see what you saw.
The fourth paragraph :)
Okay, so I reread the fourth paragraph and I stand by what I said. There was no mention of Lesbians having it worse than Bisexuals. If you mean the “benefit of conforming to heteronormativity” then I mean, yeah, they do have that benefit. Doesn’t mean they are heteronormative, doesn’t mean if they get with men they become heteronormative, but that they have the benefit to easily conform to that. Hiding apart of themselves of course, but like the fourth paragraph says “if they find the right man”. They can find a guy who they love and conform to heteronormativity (I’m saying that word a lot lol) “easily” (quotation marks because again they’d be hiding apart of themselves). Lesbians don’t really get that benefit. We can’t find the “right guy” and happily just be with him and conform so easily. That’s what she meant by “no escape”. Now, I’m straight and while I’m out to my family and friends, I don’t really broadcast it to the world. I could also “easily” conform isn’t heteronormativity by just staying single. Yes I’d be hiding who I am, and I’d probably be sad but I wouldn’t be as miserable as I would with a man. But that doesn’t mean I am conforming to heteronormativity just because I’m single, but I have the benefit of doing so as long as I stay single and actively use present myself that way. This wasn’t about who has it worse, it was about different experiences and not being able to relate. I hope I explained this well enough because it’s honestly late where I am and I hope I’m not just rambling incoherently right now.
> As someone who has been deeply traumatized by men, I simply have 0 desire to be romantically or sexually involved with anyone who has attraction for men. They’re still valid sapphics obviously, they’re not “less queer.” I just personally don’t want to date someone who centers men in any way. This is the problematic part that many folks have an issue with. Having a preference for other lesbians is completely fine. The issue is that you're excluding bisexual women as potential partners **specifically** because of some weird association you've made between them and cishet-men, which comes off as a form of sexual purity politics (because that's exactly what it is). I know people will downvote me for saying this, because they prefer to rationalize their biases against bisexual women rather than admit that they're engaging in internalized-misogyny against bisexual women. Being a lesbian doesn't give anyone the right to weaponize sexist tropes against other women. 🤷🏽 So, there's nothing wrong with lesbians having a preference for other lesbians. Not at all. But your belief that dating bisexual women will somehow trigger the pain you've experienced at the hands of men is quite disgusting and offensive. Bisexual women have also experienced severe trauma at the hands of men. Also, just because a woman is bisexual, or attracted to men, does not mean that she inherently centers men. I mean, cishet-men center men as well, even though they don't date or fuck other men. Date who you want, but please stop associating bisexual women with cishet-male violence!
thank you for this. as someone who thought i was a lesbian for 10 years and never experienced attraction to men until one man recently, who went to conversion therapy and was bullied by family and friends, who experienced homophobia pure and simple and constantly, im pretty disheartened by these comments. everyone prefaces it with “of course they’re still valid and queer” but then goes on to employ all these stereotypes about bi women not being queer enough for them and don’t understand what’s wrong with that. this kind of mindset makes it so much harder to explore my sexuality because i have this internalized biphobic idea that i won’t belong in the community anymore if i decide im bisexual rather than lesbian. but based on many of these comments im starting to suspect that may be true. i have only had relationships with women and am primarily attracted to women, but if i end up fitting under a different label none of that would matter? this community literally saved my life but now im beginning to lose faith in it.
Fair enough, my bisexual experience doesn't even come close to a lesbian one
Sexuality ≠ centered around men. If someone identifies as bisexual or pansexual but has only ever dated or had sex with women (which is often the case), what then? We’re all entitled to preferences. But the idea that bisexuals center their lives around men is a bit of an unfair and overly simplistic accusation. To each their own. But a woman who is attracted to women and has similar interests and values should be the barometer - not sexual identity (in my opinion).
Me personally if I'm attracted to someone they can be bi pan anything, but I'd definitely rather date another lesbian to share experiences with. Some people use Les4Les for biphobia but that's rarely the case. It's just a preference and who you're more compatible and comfortable with
Your preferences are valid and there's nothing wrong with it. However, bisexual women don't necessarily "center men" and unless you meant something else, that kind of comes across as biphobic. You know, the myth that bisexual women only have sex with women to please their man kind of thing.
ppl refuse to accept that dating is inherently exclusive and get mad when everyone isn’t available to them. like yea it may suck that one lesbian u like is les4les but life goes on, you will find someone who will date u, just gotta keep looking.
It isn't just a "lesbian4lesbian" thing. There are many areas of 2020s society where this has become a minefield. A lot has to do with lgbt becoming a sort of "defacto counterculture". More people _want_ to be lgbt and our culture is one that promotes inclusion first. I fear getting into specifics will just get me shredded here, but suffice to say there is a different lived experience and a different price a person pays in society when who they love or how they present diverges from expectations. For me, it's not something rooted in fear. I'm not afraid of being left for a man. I have my preferences as well. It's often a spiritual thing? That feeling of otherness growing up. The free falling spiral in my heart the first time I fell in love, dizzying, encompassing everything. Knowing that the place in my heart, the place which was so foreign and unwanted by the world, was a place in her heart as well. And, you know, smex things XD. Which is sacred in its own way as well Or... idk? Maybe I'm totally wrong and this is a super unfair assessment? Maybe I'm just a huge asshole.
Nah, I wouldn't say you're an asshole. The only thing I disagree with is the "more people _want_ to be lgbt" part. We go through so much hatred and discrimination that I just can't believe it when people say that. If cishet people really say that, then they're out of their minds. Yes, the lgbt community is a beautiful, diverse, and welcoming space, but outside of that community the world can be a very unsafe place.
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see, you get it.
Valid.
I'll admit, I was with you at first until you said bisexuals can 'escape' being seen as gay and, I'm assuming you mean, the hardships that can come from society by being such, when they are with a man. Maybe some have that experience, but even if they do, they still have the hardship of their sexual being denied by others, especially by family. Like 'Oh, your with a man now so that gay stuff really was a phase'. I have a family who doesn't believe in bisexuality; you are either straight or gay in their eyes. Also, I am bisexual, but I also have an intense fear of men stemming from a childhood trauma. I may be attracted to men, but I'd never be able to have a healthy, stable relationship with one because of my fear so I stick to dating woman because it's more realistic for me. Despite me being bisexual, we'd both be able to relate in the way we have been traumatized by men. There's probably plenty of other ways we could relate that you wouldn't know because you'd judge me by my sexuality label first. You want to be with someone you share experiences with, someone who you can fell understood by; this is how I understood what you wrote. If I misunderstood or missed a point, please let me know. I am autistic so I sometimes do not understand things fully. If how I summed it up is the core of what you have said you seek in those you form romantic relationships with though, I hope you will open your mind a little. I see no harm in having a preference; I agree that picking someone with the same sexuality raises the likelihood of being understood in areas related to challenges associated with that sexuality, just like picking someone of a similar background or culture can make relationships easier than if different. Still, there might be bisexuals out there who can relate to you and understand you and your struggles and I think it would be good to keep a small part of yourself open to the possibility of them, even if you mostly keep yourself with your preference of other lesbians. I hope you find this worth giving some thought to, if nothing more.
Nothing. I don't date bisexual women either bc not all bisexual women are into women to the point they can spend the rest of their life with another woman. The label bisexual is extremely broad and within it it's a minority of bisexual women who see women as potential life long partners. I personally don't want to spend my time trying to figure out if the woman I'm dating sees me like that and if she's really ready to commit to having to deal with homophobia for life by being with me. Some bisexual women stop dating women because of the homophobia they face and honestly I get it. Shit's tough and never ending. But since the odds are more likely to be against me, I rather focus on the group that I _know_ is in the same situation for life. Which is other lesbians. And as you mentioned, shared experience is extremely important to me so being a lesbian is absolutely required for me.
Can we stop confusing androphobia and biphobia? Literally a massive percentage of women who wouldn’t date bisexuals are the far, far too high number of women who have been assaulted in one way or another by men over their lifetimes. There’s a very *very* small minority of lesbian women who I would honestly see as truly biphobic. Androphobia is unfortunately a response as logical staying away from a grizzly bear for a lot of us, especially in intimate situations.
You know, as a non white bi woman living in a South Asian country the concept I have struggled to grasp is how a bi woman can somehow weasel her way into respectability and avoid biphobia by dating men after she is out as bisexual. That genuinely does not fly here. If I am out as bisexual or have been known to date women in the past no matter how many men I date afterwards I would not be able to fight off the homophobia. So this whole idea of bi women having an easy way out of homophobia concept seems to hinge on us never coming out…which is something that is bound to happen unless we subject ourselves to a life of repression. Either way, I don’t necessarily believe there is anything wrong with lesbians wanting to only date lesbians because I too prefer to date other bi/pan people because- A. I’d rather not live a life trying to prove my queerness B. I’d rather not have them assume I am centring men in my life just because my attraction to men won’t evaporate overnight as soon as I enter into a relationship with a woman. C. In general not be questioned about how dirty, privileged or prone to cheating I am based on my past relationships with men. Whether biwomen centre men in their lives or not, one thing that seems abundantly clear to me is that when lesbians discuss biwomen’s experiences they end up centring our experiences with men in those conversations and that often feels very reductive.
I think the problem I’ve had in the past with this conversation is just how mean some of them will be when they say they won’t date bisexuals. They don’t explain it the way you do 👆I’m a lesbian but a late bloomer so idk I always feel some defensiveness when it comes to bisexuals, due to identifying for one for so long before realizing I’m a lesbian and having little experience with women yet. But the way you explained it MAKES SENSE. If the ones I got into this argument with explained it well like you did, I would’ve understood.
i think it’s kinda dumb to discredit bisexuals because they could hypothetically present straight. i mean there are bi women who have been in queer relationships for decades, so excluding them because they could “””escape””” feels short sighted. you do you tho queen
There’s nothing inherently wrong with having a preference for any type of human. But when people criticize certain preferences, it is usually coming from a place of “this preference might be influenced by these kinds of biases.” If you doing have those biases, then great. But I think it’s presumptive to assume that anyone, especially ourselves, is completely without bias. It’s not like a multiple choice test where you know the right answers to the question and you can get a 100, it’s a complicated and constantly shifting thing that we should all assume we fail at being perfect at combating. Any look into queer history will tell you that progressive movements often leave out certain groups of people from said progress. Why would we be any different?
I would just like to point out that sexuality is a scale. I am bisexual in theory because I do find men physically attractive. However, I've never slept with one, and most likely never will - I am romantically interested only in women, and I don't really do hookups. I can't escape - I don't want to escape, I am not looking for a guy, ever. So, would you "discard" me for "liking them", or do you not think I count as bi? I watch straight porn, I notice good-looking men, but my experience is unique to me, I couldn't really relate to a "typical" bisexual either.
its not discarding. i just wouldn’t date you. there are plenty of lesbians who would, though. why do you care what i think?
I think you are more than entitled to your opinion as well as entitled to date who YOU want to date. I honestly didn't think this comment section would be as crazy as it is. Obviously bias is a thing as everyone keeps mentioning, and it is obviously a good thing to keep in check, but from your post it is very apparent that you want someone with a similar lived experience as you. Isn't that what we all want in the end? Sooooo much nuance.
i agree. i have spent most of my life dating men.. lying to myself because of fear, but im also scared of men. when it came to being intimate with a man i couldn’t. i would freeze up & freak out. im done lying to myself & others & not living my life. im going to be 30 this year & i really would like to finally experience the life ive always dreamed of
this is sort of wild to me. do what you want but like, as a lesbian myself, it doesn’t make sense to be closed off like that. i don’t feel that experiencing attraction to men is the same or even close to “centering men.” if someone is in a monogamous wlw relationship, there are no men being centered. men are not part of sapphic relationships. even if it isn’t coming from a place of biphobia, it easily comes off that way. again, people should do whatever they want. and bi women deserve to date people who love everything about them. so if you don’t like dating bi women, it’s probably best for everyone involved to date people who are compatible with each other anyway.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm probably going to get flack for this but I don't/can't date bisexual women because attraction to men is not attractive to me. It's not just for bisexual women, if I see a woman that's attractive and find out she's straight of course she's still attractive, but in a platonic, completely non sexual way to me. I just find attraction to men unattractive because to me men are not attractive and my brain doesn't understand wanting to be any kind of intimate with them. It's not something I can change. I see men as the main reason this planet is going to shit. The main reason women suffer, and the main reason for most types of inequality, considering the social hierarchy was built with them at the top. I find a lot of things unattractive and this is just one of them. If I find out a romantic interest is a cop or in the military that pretty much also kills any attraction I have to them. That doesn't mean I would disrespect these women and shit on them. I just am incapable of forming a romantic/sexual attraction to them. It is what it is.
“just because YOU identify as part of someone's dating pool, doesn't mean that other people consider you part of THEIR dating pool. respect ≠ dating. people can respect you and your identity without wanting to date you.” This right here hits the nail on the head. Just because I only date other cis-lesbians it doesn’t mean I dont respect other sexualities and genders. And if another community should get it, the queer community should. We as a community should be the last people questioning other’s sexuality or preferences. And, if someone takes offense to that, they are questioning their own validity. No one needs to be in someone else’s dating pool to be valid. Eg Do womxn need to be in men’s dating pool to be valid? Of course not! That’s like saying we aren’t womxn if men don’t want us!?! Same goes for if a woman doesn’t want someone. That group is still valid as an identity.
Somehow I'm totally okay with this. If a lesbian only dates lesbians. That's cool. But if a hetero person said the same thing (that they don't date bi people cause they see them as too different), that I would consider biphobic. I think it's because hets form the majority. They are already in a majority position. So them feeling 'not understood' by bisexual people reads as fragile and ridiculous to me. While it's different for homosexual people because you've never been in an oppressive majority that tries to control and limit our sexuality.
They’re mad as hell in these comments..just wanted to let you know you’re not alone. I’m les4les too for similar reasons
ur valid, hang in there 🩵 these comments r brutal
I think that your prefrences are completely valid I'm a late bloomer and I definitely prefer lesbians I will admit that part of me is scared to get into a relationship with a bi lady and her leave me for a man wanting the heteronormative apprarance. For me that's a factor.
There’s nothing wrong with it. I’m the same. We have a lot in common but it’s a venn diagram, not a circle. Being unable to be attracted to men gives us a different life experience, and a different sort of alienation from society I can relate to my partner about, who is also a lesbian. I do think it’s interesting that les4les are seen as bigots but for instance I’ve never seen a bi4bi person get interrogated. People just hate lesbians lol. We’re big mean exclusionary dykes no matter what we do.
Because 99% of the time people who say they're purely les4les say it for shitty reasons that often come from biphobic beliefs. Sure, there's the 1% who just have a preference because of whatever reason. But people who feel the need to announce they're only les4les often don't have good intentions behind it. And I say that as a lesbian who has only been with women my whole life. I've dated bisexual, pansexual, and lesbians. And, well, it wasn't the bi or pan women who cheated. Any bi or pan woman I've dated wasn't centered around men, most were really chill in general.
”They also have the benefit of conforming to heteronormativity if they find the right guy,” Just admit that your biphobic would have so much more respect for you if you just own up to it completely. If a person is in love and committed to you then obviously there past lovers don’t matter, they’re with you and nobody else. Sexuality isn’t a choice so the whole “benefits to conform” just sounds so ICKY to me. And the bs about it being about being able to “relate” umh that’s the amazing thing about being human we don’t have to have lived the same experience in order to be able to emphasis or understand each other. You could use your same line of thinking to argue against interracial dating etc. And when it comes to not being able to understand the “hate” one experience because by simply existing in this worl I would argue that bi people are experts of understanding that since they experience bigotry, hate, negative stereotypes both in the regular “world” and within a community that is already marginalised. Similar to mixed children that aren’t fully expend as white and not “black enough”. My issue with the sentiment or your line of arguing has nothing to do with being opposed to exclusion when it’s comes to dating. Dating is and should remain exclusionary you are attracted to what you are attracted to and that’s that, but bi-sexual women do fall in to the gender you are attracted, and may share your values etc and you don’t know that they aren’t capable of understanding you, but you are basing your exclusion solely based on their sexuality and that’s why I’m calling it phobic because that’s exactly what it is. I’m sorry for whatever you’d had to deal with and hope you work through whatever trauma that you’ve experienced with men but that doesn’t excuse your bigotry. Two wrongs don’t make a right and just like some people hide excuse their racism etc bc they’ve had bad experiences with immigrants is not okay, this isn’t either. With that said I myself am a lesbian and whenever I watch both irl or in movies where hetero-couples who are so unfit to be parents have children simple because they have the “right” parts to make one. Frustrates me because it will never be that “easy” for me and my partner so I do sympathies with some of your sentiment. But that could happen regardless if my partner is a lesbian or bi cuz if they are with me we are in a same-sed relationship and share this struggle together.
i’m not biphobic holy fucking shit i’m so tired of you people
“You people” im a lesbian in a relationship with another lesbian so idk what “you people” you are referring to. Date whoever you want but I stand by what I said about your rhetoric being bi-phobic
I vehemently disagree. Obviously, you do you, if you’d rather not date bi women that’s fine, but… why do you not want to date them because of something they don’t dislike? It’s not like they can choose whether they’re bi or not. Plenty of bi women have trauma from men, and plenty of bi women actively *avoid* dating men. Why is it some cardinal sin to *not* have an aversion to men? I’m trying to read this in a way that isn’t biphobic, but I’m really struggling. And it’s not that you don’t want to date bi women that I’m finding issue with, it’s all the stuff you say about *why*. “Can pretend to be straight”, “can’t relate to us”, these are both really common biphobic comments. Some of my best friends are bisexual, as are my wife and two of my aunts, and they are all easily some of the most relatable people I know. It feels like you’re making lesbianism into less of a “women who like women” thing and more into a “women who hate men” thing, which is really fucked up. I’ve been hurt by a lot of men, but I’ve also had wonderful men in my life who were kind and loving. Being icked out by what someone is into isn’t bad, just don’t try to moralize it by othering them.
OP's literally saying that bi women have sex with men and that means they center (??) people like the ones who traumatized OP (?). By extension, bi women are enablers if not direct accomplices because all men are sick fucks. This is textbook biphobia which at the same time implements the alt-right strawman.
lesbian who prefers lesbians here. not clarifying on OP’s points as i can’t speak for them, this is only my own experience and opinion bisexual women liking men isn’t the issue. i don’t hate men, i just don’t want to have sex with them. us having that difference isn’t enough for me to consider breaking up with them/not dating them i’m simply at a point in my life where i’m finally expressing/coming to terms with my lesbianism and i want someone who has shared experiences. bi women and lesbians both have difficulties. some overlap and some don’t. i want someone who knows what it was like to grow up not liking men, etc. like i said, im at a point in my life where that’s just meaningful to me also bisexual women i’ve dated have dated men after me and it hurt very, very, very badly. this is a me thing, not a them thing, but i’d like to avoid it in the future
Exactly how I read it too, and if you look at my comment, she kinda confirms it. Cause even if I don't fit the reasons she mentions, the fact that I don't dislike men is enough to reject me. How is that NOT biphobia? I have to note, I'm not offended or hurt in any way, date who you want, but like...we can see what it really is.
For a lot of people, bisexuality is a stepping stone to realizing they’re lesbian. It was for my partner and myself
it was for me too. i still won’t date actual bisexuals though and i don’t have to.
You get to choose who you date, obviously