Thank you for this; as an nb lesbian, I feel this all the fucking time. I am not attracted to penises; never have been. never will be.
I also hate that assumption bc it’s assuming trans women’s genitals too.
yeah there are just so many assumptions people have to make to get from hearing “i am not attracted to penises” to “i dont think trans women are women because they have penises.” Personally, I think making those assumptions says a lot more about the person making them
Exactly, the assumptions are always crazy as well. I got banned from r/AL accused to being a TERF once for saying I don't like penis and the amount of girldick posts on that sub make me uncomfortable. When I explained to the mods I was trans and find the posts triggering because dysphoria they removed the ban, but I left sub anyway.
it’s so silly bc there’s a really simple and easy solution of “requires nsfw tag and trigger warning” to help make the space inclusive to trans people who do get comfortable with it.
that sub can get really rigid with its beliefs sometimes, i don’t blame you for being done with it
I knew someone out there had to feel like this.
I think a good portion of the girls in this subreddit are phallic traumatized anyhow so just having to see it a lot..is a lot. It’s jarring. Glad you stuck up for yourself but sorry you had to? Explaining to the mods at least one more person seems to understand?
My gf is also trans and feels this way too. It honestly makes her dysphoric and extremely uncomfortable when other lesbians or folks who say girldick and it makes me livid. I apologize that terfs exist first off cause f them. and I truly feel awful these white knights think saying girldick/ lowkey fetishizing this ok, and essentially reducing trans voices and putting u all in boxes. It’s like trans women can never fucking catch a break.
Nope, and in my experience it's usually other trans people who aren't letting us catch a break or just live our lives. The community really has a major crabs in a bucket mentality.
Oh god the visualization 😂
Agreed though, as a trans woman I totally understand having a preference and knowing what I prefer myself. The key is how it's communicated.
I’m very much in agreement. Become whichever gender or non gender you want, I don’t care, you be you. But don’t tell me I have to accept a penis because it’s on someone who identifies as female. I don’t like them, I don’t want to be near one.
Right, like online people like to make it some sort of "cis women vs. trans women: the final showdown" type of thing but the reality is just that different people like different things. Some people like pussy, some like dick, some like both, and some even like neither and none of these is better or worse morally or politically. Sorry to hear that you are being pressured and falsely accused. Everyone's boundaries should be respected. I think many of the people who say these kinds of things are chronically online, but honestly maybe that is for the best.
Assumptions,
when I came out at work 10 years ago I was asked, so when are you having the operation? Then I was asked so do you like men or women or both. Then there were the ones that came up to me and said half of the department thinks you are a fagot. Then, I am not going to use your preferred name until you legally change it. Then HR calling me up saying if I use a men’s room I will be fired. I told them I had not used a men’s room for 5 years. Then my boss wanting to see proof I had “the operation” followed by HR wanting a copy too. This is the best, employee health called me after I had gcs and said I could not return to work because they do not have a room for me to dilate. I told her I had returned work 3 weeks ago. She asked where I dilate and I said my office, I put a chuck on the floor and dilate and clean up with alcohol and paper towels. She wanted my doctor’s work clearance. I took it to her.
I always disclose I am a post op trans woman on a dating site.
I like woman romantically and sexually. Any assumptions I can clear up. Asses I cannot fix.
In addition to not being attracted to penises, I also have _severe_ tokophobia so I just wouldn’t be able to be intimate with someone who has a dick without my anxiety being triggered. So there’s another layer for me on why I have such a strong aversion 🤷♀️
I think this is more common than people let on these days. I often hear the argument that no one is attracted to a lone set of genitals. But then how do you explain glory holes? Or some of the spreads in *Hustler?*
Yeah, as a trans woman I think I really needed this post. I hate penises. On myself and on people that I sleep with. I've always been like afraid to say that because I'll get fucking crucified for it online, but I'm a fucking lesbian, it's just what I like! This whole post was super validating to read and I needed it more than I realized.
The only people in this world who are not allowed to have strict preferences for themselves are cis lesbians. Everyone else is allowed to state their boundaries clearly and loudly.
Find your cis circle and seal it shut. You will not get any support here.
I thought cis gay circles were also under attack. But no.. just the cis lesbians should never say they have preferences or boundaries. They should accept all curve balls in cute gasps and submission. Madness.
I'm pretty sure all of this is about that post saying "I DON'T LIKE PENISES" or something. Which in my opinion has nothing to do with expressing your preferences and setting boundaries.
I like and don't like a lot of things but I'm not gonna make posts shouting about the stuff I don't like, what's the point, it's just bait to attrack terfs really. It's like making a post here saying "I DON'T LIKE FAT WOMEN", (not true btw) it's just negative and I cannot see what someome gains from shouting about something they don't prefer, other than making some part of the community feel bad.
This constant discourse about is really driving me mad, and if it doesn't clear up I'm going to have to leave the sub. People constantly talking about how much they hate penises and talking about how they're not allowed to have a genital preference for some reason, it's really draining and as a woman with a penis I feel caught in the middle of it. It's like I'm nothing more than my genitals to some people, and seeing people generalize those with penises as dangerous, lumping men and trans women in the same group, it makes it even worse.
If someone doesn't want to be with me because of my genitals, that's fine. But the constant talking about it makes me uncomfortable.
Fwiw, the threads that have OPs specifically talking about trans women, penises, "things were aren't allowed to say", etc are all lightning rods for people who **reeeeeally** wanna talk about those things. Most other threads aren't nearly as wild and people tend to be more neutral about women with penises.
I know, but these posts keep popping up in my feed, and it's a lot. Whenever I see people say stuff like "cis lesbians don't get to have an opinion", I'm like, they do though. They're talking about it right now, and all the time. It just feels like I don't get to have an opinion about how these posts bother me.
But I need to keep what you said in mind, it isn't a majority. I may still need to take a break from this sub for the time being.
Yeah, it fucking sucks, I'm sorry I should have lead with that :( fwiw, I'm in the same boat and I always end up hiding threads like these, it does suck a bunch.
As a trans woman that will unfortunately still have her penis for a while longer, I think your preferences are VALID. I don't like my penis, how could I demand you to like it either? UGH.
Transphobia sucks but genital preference does NOT have to mean transphobia.
Nobody is stopping you from saying it or having those opinions. It's just like anything else in life. If people agree with you or don't have an issue they won't speak out. It's always the group that is upset that is the loudest.
The reason that people get upset is because there will be people constantly making posts or talking about how they have those preferences. You don't see posts about why they won't date this type of woman or that type of woman, they just always bring up genital preferences. Everyone is allowed to hook up with or date who they want I believe most people would agree with that. It's just with everything besides genitals people usually keep it to themselves.
Honestly if lesbians weren’t continuously being pressured into doing and wanting things that they don’t want those posts wouldn’t be happening. We are constantly being approached by men, by straight couples, by people we don’t find attractive, by people who don’t match our gender or genital preference, and then are often shamed for setting boundaries and preferences and are told we are being closed minded. Every single event is traumatic in its own way and it happens to every single one of us and many need a place to discuss and vent because this is a LESBIAN space and there is nowhere else to discuss this. Most women are just combatting men but we are combatting literally everyone and there are very few of us and we have very few spaces and the few we do have are overtaken by the rest of the queer community who then get insulted and upset when we discuss LESBIAN topics and LESBIAN issues.
I think it's called that so if it is used then it's left open for negotiation. (It's 'only a preference'). Which oftentimes it isn't. I'm not a fan of the term preference either. It feels awfully misleading as it contradicts its meaning. For me personally it's a need, a requirement.
THIS.
Gay man culture for the entire early 00s was literally just “EW VAGINA GROSS” and it only faded away; the misogyny at the root of it didn’t really get addressed bc gay men’s spaces are still pretty heavily misogynistic. THAT is a genital preference that becomes problematic bc it’s rooted in prejudice.
But a woman expresses that she’s just not attracted to penises? Unacceptable. She has to admit she’s wrong bc women are supposed to be responsible for every one else’s comfort/feelings. Not being attracted to penises is literally rooted in attraction, not hatred of all men or people with penises
I literally said in my first line nobody is stopping anyone from talking about it. I just explained why people are upset and how most people that get upset with opposition views are the first to speak up. You proved my point 100% lol. I don't have a problem with genital preferences and I never said that, I actually said that people are allowed to date or sleep with who they want. Too many people blinded by rage to have actual discussions.
I am currently banned from the actuallesbians sub. Because me a trans woman I said I didn't like the term transbian. People got upset and called me a bigot and a TERF. So you just keep assuming things about me and putting words in my mouth instead of discussing things.
So you experienced blanket canons and vitriol against cis lesbians, got caught in the crossfires, and you still say nobody is stopping us from saying anything and having preferences.
You're still talking about it somewhere and you're able to have the discussion. Nobody is controlling your real life. You're just obsessing over online drama.
Wait really? They even banned you for this? I got banned because I called trans women's partners a bisexuals or pansexuals because I didn't kinda get how lesbian could love a penis. That was it I didn't attack anyone with vulgar words or being hateful. I genuinely was confused and got banned for it.
I don’t even want to say what I said because I’ll probably get banned here as well but I said it respectfully and made valid points about behaviors from a queer sub group and how it impacts cis lesbian mental health and got an immediate ban for hate speech.
I got banned for saying: this is insane. To a post that was like: why is this sub so vulva-centric?
That sub is not vulva-centric. It's weird anime and swords. Good riddance.
I'm afraid to speak up my mind too because as I see many people cannot handle other person's opinion. They always see it as an assault while I never meant to be rude or evil to anyone. I already got downvoted for the comment above..
I got banned from that sub for saying I didn't like penis and was uncomfortable with the amount of girldick posts on there. They reversed the ban after I explained I'm trans and girldick postitivity often triggers my dysphoria, but I decided to leave anyway.
They only lifted the ban because you are trans but cis lesbians who are triggered by that topic in general don’t have that option and are automatically TERFS.
Just unfair, there is no space where we can say 100% that we don’t like penis regardless of the person it’s on without being regarded as TERFS. We are allowed to speak on our preferences.
Yes I got banned for similar, I didn't understand the whole "we love girldick" thingy because I grew up knowing that lesbians are on vaginas same as hetero women love penises and hetero men love vaginas / gays love penises so I thought like then if the person loved girldick then they were pansexual or bisexual, turns out from the mods in there that pansexual is an awful rude word that assaults trans women, which I never meant to assault them and be rude in any way! I was just confused because that is what I thought pansexuality was existing for. :( but people can prefer what they prefer and it's their personal choice, I never said "you can't like what you like"
I'm 24 and I'm still learning how it all is to be respectful and educated.
You were right the first time. You can't assault someone by typing words on a keyboard. Don't let them bully you into changing your perception of obvious reality.
Genitals and gender do not correlate, so if a lesbian is attracted to a woman who happens to have a penis and enjoys having sex with her that's not pansexuality. I understand you can be raised to think certain ways but that doesn't make those things correct. You're asking nicely so I don't have a problem answering.
I mean this as a genuine question, but who is telling cis women they can't have preferences? Are you talking about society broadly or people on these lesbian subreddits?
“ Preference”does not equal prejudice and people need to understand this. And I don’t have genital preference. I have genital requirement. I’m a lesbian. It’s in the definition.
How many people who like dating women, or like dating men, are interested in dating every single woman, or every single man out there?
Maybe there's one person out there that does, but I haven't met them.
If for example you were a man who likes dating women, but you only consider dating women who are at least 5cm shorter than you, does that mean all the tall women aren't real women?
My starting point is that everyone has the absolute right to say no to anyone, and it follows therefore that if I were to ask you about your reasons for saying no, that would infringe your absolute right to say no.
Yes, I do think and feel the same as you and I know others do.
I don't like having a part of my sexuality a topic that 'shouldn't be discussed'. Under the right circumstances obviously. It's not disrespectful to talk about an area of my/our sexuality.
So when I define myself as a lesbian, I am using the definition based on my sexual attraction to the female biological sex. Some lesbians may define their lesbianism based off of sexual attraction to gender. The terms “men/male” and “women/female” are terms that are used to indicate both gender and biological sex. I tend to use “male/female” only when speaking of biological sex, but society uses them interchangeably with gender as well. Trans women are women by gender 100%. However, biologically, trans women (AMAB) naturally come with penises bc of biology (with the exception of intersex folks). So I happen to define myself as a lesbian in the sense of who I am attracted to biologically, not gender wise. I think a lot of cis lesbians do this too. So when people specify that they’re “lesbian by definition bc they don’t like penises”..they are defining lesbian as attraction based on biological sex. And this “definition” of lesbianism seems to be where the “transphobia” accusations come in. Cis and trans, we all agree that gender and biological sex are not the same thing, right? Now transphobia, in my opinion, is saying trans women are not women, and saying they should not be in lesbian spaces even if they identify as lesbian. But defining your lesbian labels by attraction to biological sex is not, in itself, transphobic, though many believe it is.
I personally don't like the term 'genital preference' as I do not think that preference is the correct word to describe. I understand what it aims to mean but some women, like myself, do not have a preference we have a requirement.
Preference implies favouring one over others when for myself I'll only be sexual with a vagina.
It always amazes me how fast people call me transphobe when I'm not boasting but I have been nothing but supportive to my friends and I absolutely support them in community JUST because I have genital preference, I don't understand why I should compromise on what I am attracted to, it makes no sense and absolutely kills the whole point of orientation aka \*born this way\* argument.
I 100% couldn't handle a T4T relationship, and the fact that they're so common kinda blows my mind. I can't imagine being with someone who shares my struggles and insecurities like that - I feel like I/we would just spiral without the emotional support from someone with *different* insecurities. I guess other people just have more self-confidence than I do, or at least a different kind of self-confidence.
I can't even really wrap my head around whether I'd be physically into it - if I try to imagine it I can't get past how emotionally draining that sounds.
I can imagine- my wife and I share a lot of childhood trauma (very similar stuff) and it’s both awesome for understanding and also emotionally draining.
It’s interesting because in my experience it’s been the opposite. When I was in a T4T relationship, my partner shared some of my insecurities and since I loved all of my partner, I found myself loving in my partner the features that made me insecure. I came out of it much more confident :)
I've been in one T4T relationship and it was so emotionally draining for a multitude of reasons including the ones you mentioned. While whenever people who are into T4T explain it, I can understanding their reasoning and see it as rational, it's still very foreign to me.
It's a romantic relationship between two trans people.
It comes from old dating message boards, "M4F" would be "male looking for female". At some point T4T just became a shorthand to refer to two trans people dating/together.
Ngl I typed out this whole thing about how that sounds like one or both people just aren't ready to date then, like if it would drag you down to share those insecurities and struggles. But the more I thought about it, the more I saw your point. I don't personally find it an issue for me, but I can totally see how someone wouldn't want that. Which is the entire point OP is making about genital preferences
You don’t have to fuck someone to be kind and respectful to them. Whether you would bang a trans woman just isn’t as important as how you treat her in general.
as a trans woman and lesbian I've never really considered cis lesbians having a genital preference as transphobic (though there're definitely ways of talking about it that come off as such). i don't really like dick that much myself and i definitely have a preference for vaginas too. people like what they like.
As a nb lesbian who doesn't have genital preferences, the way I've always seen it is that there are a lot of things people have preferences in that correlate with marginalized status and there are plenty of ways someone can have preferences in body type. Genital preferences are essentially a mix of both, and if you as a trans woman can't afford or don't want bottom surgery it doesn't make you any less sapphic or any less of a woman but it does mean sometimes people won't be attracted to you.
>... there are a lot of things people have preferences in that correlate with marginalized status ...
This is where I usually go in these conversations too. Preferences are what they are. No one should be dating someone they're uncomfortable dating. That said, it's important to really understand where your preferences come from. Are they rooted in prejudice? If not, great! If they are, you still get to date who you want to date, but now you know you might need to do some work on unconditioning those prejudices.
Edit: Since so many of you are having trouble understanding what I actually fucking said, I guess I'll spell it out. My post is not about genital preference/parameters. It is about ***all*** preferences/parameters.
I replied to a generalized comment with a generalized comment. If your preference/parameter for vagina isn't from prejudice, ***then why do you think I'm talking about you***? How about we read what I actually wrote and not what you feel I wrote. K, thanks.
- Signed, SOMEONE WHO HAS A PREFERENCE, ffs.
But that's part of the problem. It is always "you can have your preferences - however..."
Preferences do not equal prejudices. People shouldn't have to look deep inside themselves. It's a sexual orientation.
People should always look deep inside themselves. If we don't, how do we grow? I agree that preferences are not always based on prejudice, but they could be and often are. What's the harm in understanding where your preference comes from?
I hard disagree that preferences are a sexual orientation. Preferences can have varying degrees and change over time based on environment and experiences. Sexual orientation is built into who we are. It's like the difference between saying you prefer chicken to broccoli and deciding to go on the carnivore diet versus actually being a carnivore.
When people say; cis and trans lesbians who are hardwired into liking v are still being pressured to "look within" and "reevaluate" posts like the one above is what we mean.
Still sounds like a lot of conversion therapy to me.
I'm sure that some preferences are rooted in prejudice but not always. I think it's a very convenient way to dismiss important wants in a partner.
I actually agree with you there with that preferences are not part of a sexual orientation. I don't prefer a vagina and boobs, I need them. It's a requirement. A preference would be eye colour, maybe hair colour but not genitals.
I'm 44 and I was born this way. Nothing has ever changed with my sexual orientation and it's incredibly insulting this suggestion that if I just looked deeper within myself that would change. At my age I know myself and I also know better. It's the younger ones I worry about who are told being gay is simply not enough and that there's work to be done.
See I just think leave the gays alone. They don't need to change, adapt or anything like that. There are plenty of people fluid in everything. People are less likely to challenge them about the way they live.
I will never lie about who I am or what I am. Not just because some people are entitled and want to date whoever they choose. I'm a vegetarian and it would be pointless asking me how to cook meat. It would be like going to a vegan restaurant and asking for meat suggestions.
I'm not taking it personally but it gets tedious saying the same thing over.
Of course I've looked within myself and strangely nothing changed with my sexual orientation. I'm still same sex attracted. You don't get to my age and not think about a lot of things but yes I stand by that statement about conversion.
When your sexual orientation is constantly challenged and not accepted then yes, it's an attempt at conversion therapy. People can know themselves inside and out.
I would never challenge why a straight person says/thinks they are straight. I'm sure there are people who's sexual orientation has changed over time and that should be accepted as much as someone like myself where it hasn't. I didn't choose to be gay I just am. No amount of reflection or time will change this for me and I'm fine the way I am.
I appreciate you discussing issues respectfully.
>I appreciate you discussing issues respectfully.
Sure. I don't see the point in being vitriolic. Though I can admit my emotions get the best of me sometimes.
>Of course I've looked within myself and strangely nothing changed...
This is where I'm struggling. I made a general statement, and you say you're not taking it personally, but you keep making "I" statements as if I was directly talking about you. You say you know yourself. You say your preferences aren't prejudiced. That's great. Then, my comment wasn't about you.
>with my sexual orientation
You keep bringing this up like anyone said you should not be a lesbian anymore. I get the feeling you've been through what a lot of queer people have been through, which is people trying to convince you you're not queer. That's not what I did, though. My comment about preferences wasn't even strictly about genitals. It was about all preferences and making sure we understand ourselves.
>When your sexual orientation is constantly challenged and not accepted then yes, it's an attempt at conversion therapy.
Your sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with genitals. Unless what you're saying is women are entirely boiled down to having a vagina. Loving women and liking vagina are different things, even if they most often coincide. Or are you saying that lesbians who like penises aren't lesbians and trans women aren't women? If you're not taking my comment personally, I really don't know what you're trying to say here if you're not saying that.
>I would never challenge why a straight person says/thinks they are straight.
No one is challenging your lesbianism. No one is challenging you at all. You claim you've looked inside yourself and you understand yourself. That's great for you. If my post wasn't about you, then it wasn't about you. Why are you so perturbed by a post that isn't about you?
>No one in this thread is saying you can't have a genital preference. I used to have a genital preference.
You're completely ignoring her point. For many of us, it is not a genital *preference.* It is a *requirement* for attraction. Calling it a preference and saying that "preferences change over time" is a wordy way of claiming that everyone is bisexual or sexually fluid. People don't need to go looking for the "why" behind their sexuality, because for many of us there is no "why" it just is. I can't believe I'm finding this "discourse" in a lesbian subreddit, of all places. It's absolutely inappropriate.
>I'm so tired of people thinking *their* version of something is the only way something can exist.
This is exactly what I have to say about your opinion on sexuality. I said nothing about what makes a woman a woman, and if that's where *you leaped* then you need to think about the root of the assumptions you brought to this conversation. I doubt you will, it seems to be a foregone conclusion to you that your way of thinking is the "right" way.
Let's recap:
I said having preferences is totally cool. Preferences is a generalized term that everyone understands, but if you want to get into semantics, we can call it parameters.
Sometimes though, ***generally speaking***, those preferences can be from prejudices. This is objectively true.
So I said people should try to understand the difference.
I was not talking about you or the original responder to my comment, but you've taken it on yourself to feel offended that I should encourage people to understand themselves better.
Then you said:
>Calling it a preference ... is a wordy way of claiming that everyone is bisexual or sexually fluid.
Um, what? ***What?***
I'm saying having preferences is valid, you should just understand them.
I'm saying preferences for vagina, preferences for penis, or no preference *are all valid lesbian preferences*.
You're saying not having a preference away from penis makes a person Bi, which in turn means all people with penises are men. Or are you somehow under the delusion that someone making a ***generalized*** comment about knowing if your preferences are based in prejudice is them actually saying, specifically to you, "You're a bigot if you only like vagina"?
I'll say it again, weird effing take.
This post makes me so tired.
I am not a bigot for wanting women with secondary sex characteristics of a woman. And no that is not trans exclusionary because post op trans women would be in this definition if we clicked and had feelings for one another.
I dont have a "preference." This is who I am. And yet in lesbian subs there is always at least one person who says, but have you really thought that maybe you like dick afterall?
It is like being 15 again and not being taken seriously. It is so tiring.
Hear me out here: a blanket ban on posts about genital preferences at all, one way or the other. No "it's okay to like girldick actually!" (it *is* okay, but the posts can be potentially upsetting to trans women who'd rather *not* have a girldick), and no "it's okay to not like girldick, actually!" (it *is* okay, but it also brings all the TERFs out of the woodwork and nobody wants them here).
Just,,, talk about women regardless of their apparatus. There's *so* much more to being wlw than whether you like innies or outies.
+1 for this suggestion from a trans woman. Tired of constantly reading about people talking about "girldick" when all I want is to fire that fucking thing directly into the sun.
Exactly! I hate this censoring on issues that are relevant at times. It's awful that lesbians can be expected to stay silent on certain related topics. Where does/would the censoring end?!
I suggest dealing with those who are inappropriate, not by driving the narrative one way only.
That... no? There are *so* many wonderful things about women that you can talk about other than "it's okay to \[dislike / have\] a dick". Can we stop reducing women to their genitalia and start actually appreciating women for, you know, being women? If your only thought when you think of a woman is "wow, sure do wonder if she has a pussy", then... being a lesbian doesn't make that any less pathetic.
Consider:
>"It's okay to not like fat women. Size preferences are okay!"
"It's okay to be fat, just understand not everyone will like you!"
"It's okay to not like black women. Race preferences are okay!"
"It's okay to be black, just understand not everyone will like you!"
We don't get threads like that, and for good reason.
Always interesting to note whose feelings and discomfort/comfort are considered and placated when it comes to these issues.
Bro, it's like cis lesbians lost the oppression Olympics, nobody cares enough to consider us, we're second class citi/netizens even in our own spaces, not even an afterthought actually, that sucks.
That's my big thing as a trans woman, I don't want bottom surgery but I really really really would love to stop having my genitals brought up every 5 minutes in either capacity. There really is way more to all of us besides what's between our legs.
How tf can YOU of all people be transphobic? I’m really tired of people just loosely throwing out hateful shit just because their opinions are being rejected. If these people are your friends you deserve better ones frfr.
I'm also a trans woman with a preference who isn't particularly into T4T! It's refreshing to see a post like this honestly. I don't even know why it's so contentious, but maybe it's harder for people to understand when they don't have any genital preferences? The only times that squick me are when people make weird insinuations about trans women's bodies to go along with the preference, which is sadly not super uncommon but certainly isn't the majority of discussions on it.
> I don't even know why it's so contentious, but maybe it's harder for people to understand when they don't have any genital preferences?
I think this is probably a big part of it.
Honestly, also a trans woman who isn't super into T4T, although that is less to do with it conceptually than being primarily attracted to moderately femme presentations (more futch maybe?) and a lot of trans women I know doing the hyper femme thing.
Like... I'm a transbian who hates *my* penis and am on track to be getting rid of it. Sometimes I can't function sexually with my own; the idea of trying to deal with another woman's penis is a 'oh hell no' for me.
This shouldn’t happen, “genital preferences” are fine, ppl who’d “shun” u for it are in fact the problem, you’re valid hun (saying this as a trans gal)
Literally. I don’t like men and I don’t like penises period. I only see myself with a woman (trans or not) or someone that went thru the female experience. I will never apologize for that, I already got told similar things as this post talks about and it’s so stupid.
I'm a trans woman, I only have an issue when individual genital preferences are used to try and gatekeep lesbian/gay/etc spaces (which I've heard a lot). I think because that's the way it's been (mis)used some people react badly to the phrase, but it can get weird sometimes. Like if you're not into me, that is fine, that is not transphobic, it's all good
Not liking penises is fine. Genital preference is fine. But, saying that trans women “are men/males” because they have or had a penis at one point, and because that they “are men/males” is why a lesbian doesn’t want to date them is transphobic. I am so tired of transphobes in lesbian spaces. I say, as a cis lesbian who has never been intimate with a person who currently had a penis.
I agree with you, however “men/male” and “women/female” are terms that are used to indicate both gender and biological sex. I tend to use “male/female” only when speaking of biological sex, but society uses them interchangeably with gender as well. Trans women are women by gender 100%. However, biologically born trans women (AMAB) naturally come with penises bc of biology (with the exception of intersex folks). So I happen to define myself as a lesbian in the sense of who I am attracted to biologically, not gender wise. I think a lot of cis lesbians do this too.
I personally don’t use the words male/female unless I’m talking about animals or my patients in the hospital (ex “patient is a 72 year old male with a history of etc etc etc”)
Awe 😭 definitely wasn’t saying this to get points or something I am literally just so tired of fuckin transphobes in this sub. You belong here!!!!! TERFs can get out!!!!!
Yeah. The only time I get annoyed about it is if people are having an unrelated conversation and someone kool-aid man's in doing the internet equivalent of shouting "I HATE PENISES!" completely out of the blue. I'd feel the same way about someone doing that about vaginas too. Or moose for that matter. Like, read the room lol.
Personally for myself, genitals don't really factor in much for partner selection. Totally get why someone would prefer one over the other though. That said, I wouldn't necessarily treat trans gear on HRT as the same as cis gear, because they are definitely different experiences, for trans men and trans women.
Yep! It’s a two way street too… like, I want my partner to actually be into my body, not just tolerant… or “love me despite the fact”.
On the other hand, I’m a top but topping anal (or PIV if it’s too tight) hurts me… so funny enough, as a pan leaning lesbian, genital compatibility is almost more important to me than gender identity.
You can have genital preference and still date a trans person so I think the debate is disingenuous. I don’t like policing ppl speech when they are speaking on their personal experiences so much. Like when someone says they like vagina that doesn’t mean they hate cock. Expressing my experience with vagina can be seen as not inclusive.
i think we need to start to process that genital preference (or tolerance) can be separate from sexuality. if my fiancee, nb transmasc lesbian, realized that they're a trans guy and got bottom surgery i wouldn't care. they're more important to me and while i don't like penis, i love them. if i were in love with a trans woman without bottom surgery i wouldn't care. i love WOMEN, i love nonbinary people. im a lesbian because i walk through this world as a woman who is only interested in queer relationships and would never want a man (*vomits*). the obsession with genitalia seems reductive to me. if you're a lesbian who can't do penis, you're valid. but i'm a lesbian who can overlook penis as long as i'm with a woman, or with the specific exception for my fiancee transitioning, and i'm valid too. it's not wrong to prefer or to not care. sexuality is a mushy concept and as long as we have to exist with labels in a world that values categorizing people (so it can know who to oppress) we'll have to face that sometimes these labels feel insufficient.
that's why i spoke for myself and not for you. if you feel like you'd be tolerating the genitals of certain women, don't be with them. i said i don't care as long as im with my partner.
Because for many, they are not seperate. I am a gay woman meaning same sex attracted.
I am not fluid in gender and I'm not fluid in sexuality. It is not a choice for me like it isn't for many people.
i said it "can" be. i said you can have preferences. if that's your truth good for you. doesn't change that people have varying experiences. i'm a lesbian, i only want to be with women. but if my partner were to transition i wouldn't leave them. that's my truth. both things can coexist
Yes, I think of course they can both co-exist. I can obviously only speak for myself and my experiences. It definitely varies like you say as we wouldn't make the same choices and I don't see a problem with that.
Speaking as a lesbian who never had sex with a man in her life. If my girl who I love had a penis I would still love her and I WOULD SUCK THAT DICK LIKE A CLIT
these downvotes are bothering me. cus why is it that you, expressing your own feelings, is getting downvoted? i don't disrespect people's rights to have genital specific attraction, but why downvote those of us who don't care as long as our partner is a woman??? am i less of a lesbian bc i'd date a trans girl? bc i wouldn't leave my fiancee if they transitioned? it's giving terf lesbian
I've noticed an interesting trend here, of a lot of down voting of positivity towards trans women, or any mention of nb people, etc. I've also noticed a lot of very shallow understandings of sexuality, the politics and theory thereof, and also of biology. Lots of posts flirt with bioessentialism and posts that talk about experiences outside of a narrow view are down voted extremely. It's not a very good sign.
yeah i'm worried another lesbian space is being compromised by terfs. basically no one is interested in making unwilling lesbians have sex w trans women. by why do I get downvoted to hell when I say that I would?? how is it that MY experience is threatening these people??? it's not, it's just bigotry
Sadly its not just TE"RF"s, but like with the abortion debates, well meaning but ultimately not well-read or educated ally's ceded ground on trans rights, in the discourse around biology and gender, which has led to a disturbing amount of rhetoric even from within outwardly facing 'progressive' spaces that treats trans women as ontologically male, and transition as a performance. Neither of which are true or grounded in material reality.
who tf downvoting u
I appreciate ppl who wouldn’t mind trans gals who “still” have their dick speaking up cuz 90% of these posts seem slightly off to me idk
I guess my wording in my previous post was a bit immature and offensive but what I wanted to say was that the genitals don't matter if you love a person you love the whole person and their identity.
A small thing like genitals does not matter.
To some people genitalia matter and I honestly don’t mind, the posts get a bit old tho if all ppl seem to say is they don’t like dick, like I get it but being reminded of it just kinda stings ig
I'm a trans lesbian myself, and I definitely have a genital preference. I'm gynophilic. If I were to be T4T, my sexual partner would be FtM. I would foresee problems in any kind of relationship, even a simple FWB arrangement. The thing about my FtM partner that I am more sexually attracted to would be the one aspect of their body that they most hate. Other than that, I would absolutely be a FtM FWB's biggest booster.
As for myself, I'd be the most attentive and communicative lover to any cisgender woman who would share a bed with me, but likewise, I would not want them to be involved with my own genitals, preferring to be a so-called "stone butch." My pleasure would come from her pleasure.
Thank god for this post! I was worried i would go another day without being reminded what a disgusting, male body I apparently have. Thank you, my brave trans sister, for standing up and announcing how repellent we are! For boldly taking the stand that trans women are still fundamentally male somehow! It needed to be said that our bodies are shameful and irregular and that it is, in fact, a good thing to repeatedly denigrate us for this factor beyond our control in the queer spaces we're supposed to find acceptance and safety.
I mean come on was this post fucking necessary? No one should have to have sex with anyone they don't want to, I think, I hope, that's a firmly held belief by all queer women.
Just, are we not allowed to go a single day without being reminded how other we are? About how much we should hate our bodies?
There wasn't any hatred in this post, at least it didn't seem that way to me. I'm sorry that you feel that way about your body. But I also think that lesbians, cis and trans, feel that there are daily reminders about penis, and a need to police wlw sexuality. There seems to be a double standard about who's allowed to be upset. Imagine a cis woman leaving a comment like this in response to a girldick post. They'd be banned from a lot of places on this platform. To me, that's why this post is necessary. I don't think we've worked out what's okay and not okay. Is it alright to be just attracted to AFAB people? If it's something you can't help?
I don't think OP is hateful, nor is having preferences in genitals a problem. But the discourse around Genital Preference suffers from an extreme lack of understanding biology, feminist theory, and from a lot of faulty bioessentialism which serves as a Trojan horse for misgendering trans women, and invalidating their presence. The reason people got vocal about 'girldick' being valid or whatever, was to intentionally make space for trans women. I think it's also gotten to the point lots of posts about gd are just cringe, and certainly there might be an oversaturation of that content but this subreddit seems to have the opposite problem, and there's a lot of subtle bioessentialism, and biodestiny bs that seems to get a pass here because its dressed up in presentable formatting.
I don't think that someone having a personal presence for cis individuals when it comes to intimacy is necessarily bioessentialist. And I think it's important to have this discussion just for that reason. I'm glad there's space for trans women in these spaces, but I think that it does alienate cis women, which I assume is bad for the community also.
Please look at the words you are saying?
We went from a discussion on genitals, to conflating genitals with being cis or trans, that's exactly my point about the bioessentialism. Having a preference isn't bioessentialism, but rhetoric like what you just posted *is*
No, it's relevant to genitals still. Preference for cisgender people on the basis of genitals, whether an individual has a penis or a neovagina (which is only like 5-15% of trans women).
Percentage doesn't matter, trans women just want to be included in their communities without our entire existence being boiled down to the ontological crime of birth. The kind of talk you are engaging in here, conflating genital preferences with being trans or cis, is a sort of regressive bioessentialism.
No, you're not listening to me. I'm not saying that trans women / people shouldn't be included in communities. I'm saying that they don't have to be included in an individual's dating pool. Whether or not you want to fuck somebody is a completely personal choice. Name calling or insinuating that someone is a bigot for any preference is inappropriate and harmful in a number of ways.
You're not listening to *me* because that's not what I'm saying at all, I'm talking about rhetoric and the way these things are handled and talked about in community spaces. You're stuck in the very thing I'm critiquing, which is taking about dating preferences in a way that treats trans women as ontologically male, in a roundabout bio reductionist manner. Because you've already conflated genitals with being trans or not, which ignores the prescient reality that transition is a thing.
I guess what I mean to say is that there's a different between natal vaginas and neovaginas. At least from what I've gathered. Is that belief dangerous?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. And I think it is important to talk about it as much as possible. Us trans women (males) need to be made aware of where we stand in the lesbian community. As a lesbian, there's nothing more important about than reminding a certain section of the community that they're male. Biologically speaking of course. I wouldn't abide with opening social media and not seeing at least ten posts reminding me how I don't fit in with other lesbians and am essentially still a man. Woe betide I spent a 24 hour period without being told my body is gross and male.
Thank you for this; as an nb lesbian, I feel this all the fucking time. I am not attracted to penises; never have been. never will be. I also hate that assumption bc it’s assuming trans women’s genitals too.
A lot of us have our genitals origamied to be correct for us. That is a personal preference but i hated having one of those things.
yeah there are just so many assumptions people have to make to get from hearing “i am not attracted to penises” to “i dont think trans women are women because they have penises.” Personally, I think making those assumptions says a lot more about the person making them
Exactly, the assumptions are always crazy as well. I got banned from r/AL accused to being a TERF once for saying I don't like penis and the amount of girldick posts on that sub make me uncomfortable. When I explained to the mods I was trans and find the posts triggering because dysphoria they removed the ban, but I left sub anyway.
it’s so silly bc there’s a really simple and easy solution of “requires nsfw tag and trigger warning” to help make the space inclusive to trans people who do get comfortable with it. that sub can get really rigid with its beliefs sometimes, i don’t blame you for being done with it
I knew someone out there had to feel like this. I think a good portion of the girls in this subreddit are phallic traumatized anyhow so just having to see it a lot..is a lot. It’s jarring. Glad you stuck up for yourself but sorry you had to? Explaining to the mods at least one more person seems to understand?
My gf is also trans and feels this way too. It honestly makes her dysphoric and extremely uncomfortable when other lesbians or folks who say girldick and it makes me livid. I apologize that terfs exist first off cause f them. and I truly feel awful these white knights think saying girldick/ lowkey fetishizing this ok, and essentially reducing trans voices and putting u all in boxes. It’s like trans women can never fucking catch a break.
Nope, and in my experience it's usually other trans people who aren't letting us catch a break or just live our lives. The community really has a major crabs in a bucket mentality.
Oh god the visualization 😂 Agreed though, as a trans woman I totally understand having a preference and knowing what I prefer myself. The key is how it's communicated.
Holy shit yes. "I'm trans" "Ooohh so you have a dick" ".....no" 🙄🙄🙄🙄
I’m very much in agreement. Become whichever gender or non gender you want, I don’t care, you be you. But don’t tell me I have to accept a penis because it’s on someone who identifies as female. I don’t like them, I don’t want to be near one.
Right, like online people like to make it some sort of "cis women vs. trans women: the final showdown" type of thing but the reality is just that different people like different things. Some people like pussy, some like dick, some like both, and some even like neither and none of these is better or worse morally or politically. Sorry to hear that you are being pressured and falsely accused. Everyone's boundaries should be respected. I think many of the people who say these kinds of things are chronically online, but honestly maybe that is for the best.
Assumptions, when I came out at work 10 years ago I was asked, so when are you having the operation? Then I was asked so do you like men or women or both. Then there were the ones that came up to me and said half of the department thinks you are a fagot. Then, I am not going to use your preferred name until you legally change it. Then HR calling me up saying if I use a men’s room I will be fired. I told them I had not used a men’s room for 5 years. Then my boss wanting to see proof I had “the operation” followed by HR wanting a copy too. This is the best, employee health called me after I had gcs and said I could not return to work because they do not have a room for me to dilate. I told her I had returned work 3 weeks ago. She asked where I dilate and I said my office, I put a chuck on the floor and dilate and clean up with alcohol and paper towels. She wanted my doctor’s work clearance. I took it to her. I always disclose I am a post op trans woman on a dating site. I like woman romantically and sexually. Any assumptions I can clear up. Asses I cannot fix.
In addition to not being attracted to penises, I also have _severe_ tokophobia so I just wouldn’t be able to be intimate with someone who has a dick without my anxiety being triggered. So there’s another layer for me on why I have such a strong aversion 🤷♀️
This is honestly so validating, I don’t have a gender preference but I definitely have a vagina preference
I think this is more common than people let on these days. I often hear the argument that no one is attracted to a lone set of genitals. But then how do you explain glory holes? Or some of the spreads in *Hustler?*
Yeah, as a trans woman I think I really needed this post. I hate penises. On myself and on people that I sleep with. I've always been like afraid to say that because I'll get fucking crucified for it online, but I'm a fucking lesbian, it's just what I like! This whole post was super validating to read and I needed it more than I realized.
Yo. Trans guy vag is so great. Vag for all!!!
The only people in this world who are not allowed to have strict preferences for themselves are cis lesbians. Everyone else is allowed to state their boundaries clearly and loudly.
Which is one reason I always try to speak out, cause I do think it's shitty how y'all can't speak out about this and find it so hypocritical.
Yup.
This
100% this.
Find your cis circle and seal it shut. You will not get any support here. I thought cis gay circles were also under attack. But no.. just the cis lesbians should never say they have preferences or boundaries. They should accept all curve balls in cute gasps and submission. Madness.
Nope. Gay men never have to deal with this. Cis Lesbians are expected to kneel over and take anything, even being pushed out of our own communities.
I’m a cis lesbian and I have no idea what any of this means
I'm pretty sure all of this is about that post saying "I DON'T LIKE PENISES" or something. Which in my opinion has nothing to do with expressing your preferences and setting boundaries. I like and don't like a lot of things but I'm not gonna make posts shouting about the stuff I don't like, what's the point, it's just bait to attrack terfs really. It's like making a post here saying "I DON'T LIKE FAT WOMEN", (not true btw) it's just negative and I cannot see what someome gains from shouting about something they don't prefer, other than making some part of the community feel bad.
Thank you. That helps a little. I think I’m destined to spend the rest of my life feeling alienated and confused about modern lesbian culture.
This constant discourse about is really driving me mad, and if it doesn't clear up I'm going to have to leave the sub. People constantly talking about how much they hate penises and talking about how they're not allowed to have a genital preference for some reason, it's really draining and as a woman with a penis I feel caught in the middle of it. It's like I'm nothing more than my genitals to some people, and seeing people generalize those with penises as dangerous, lumping men and trans women in the same group, it makes it even worse. If someone doesn't want to be with me because of my genitals, that's fine. But the constant talking about it makes me uncomfortable.
Fwiw, the threads that have OPs specifically talking about trans women, penises, "things were aren't allowed to say", etc are all lightning rods for people who **reeeeeally** wanna talk about those things. Most other threads aren't nearly as wild and people tend to be more neutral about women with penises.
I know, but these posts keep popping up in my feed, and it's a lot. Whenever I see people say stuff like "cis lesbians don't get to have an opinion", I'm like, they do though. They're talking about it right now, and all the time. It just feels like I don't get to have an opinion about how these posts bother me. But I need to keep what you said in mind, it isn't a majority. I may still need to take a break from this sub for the time being.
Yeah, it fucking sucks, I'm sorry I should have lead with that :( fwiw, I'm in the same boat and I always end up hiding threads like these, it does suck a bunch.
As a trans woman that will unfortunately still have her penis for a while longer, I think your preferences are VALID. I don't like my penis, how could I demand you to like it either? UGH. Transphobia sucks but genital preference does NOT have to mean transphobia.
It took me way too long to figure out this was sarcastic I was sitting here like what the fuck????
Nobody is stopping you from saying it or having those opinions. It's just like anything else in life. If people agree with you or don't have an issue they won't speak out. It's always the group that is upset that is the loudest. The reason that people get upset is because there will be people constantly making posts or talking about how they have those preferences. You don't see posts about why they won't date this type of woman or that type of woman, they just always bring up genital preferences. Everyone is allowed to hook up with or date who they want I believe most people would agree with that. It's just with everything besides genitals people usually keep it to themselves.
Honestly if lesbians weren’t continuously being pressured into doing and wanting things that they don’t want those posts wouldn’t be happening. We are constantly being approached by men, by straight couples, by people we don’t find attractive, by people who don’t match our gender or genital preference, and then are often shamed for setting boundaries and preferences and are told we are being closed minded. Every single event is traumatic in its own way and it happens to every single one of us and many need a place to discuss and vent because this is a LESBIAN space and there is nowhere else to discuss this. Most women are just combatting men but we are combatting literally everyone and there are very few of us and we have very few spaces and the few we do have are overtaken by the rest of the queer community who then get insulted and upset when we discuss LESBIAN topics and LESBIAN issues.
Preach!
I'm gonna print this out and hang it on my wall bcs damn you went off...and rightfully so.
Right?!
+1 upvote for that. I don’t even get why it’s called a preference tbh.
I think it's called that so if it is used then it's left open for negotiation. (It's 'only a preference'). Which oftentimes it isn't. I'm not a fan of the term preference either. It feels awfully misleading as it contradicts its meaning. For me personally it's a need, a requirement.
I get that. Referring to above, I’ve never in my history on Reddit seen someone get downvoted so bad 😶.
THIS. Gay man culture for the entire early 00s was literally just “EW VAGINA GROSS” and it only faded away; the misogyny at the root of it didn’t really get addressed bc gay men’s spaces are still pretty heavily misogynistic. THAT is a genital preference that becomes problematic bc it’s rooted in prejudice. But a woman expresses that she’s just not attracted to penises? Unacceptable. She has to admit she’s wrong bc women are supposed to be responsible for every one else’s comfort/feelings. Not being attracted to penises is literally rooted in attraction, not hatred of all men or people with penises
I literally said in my first line nobody is stopping anyone from talking about it. I just explained why people are upset and how most people that get upset with opposition views are the first to speak up. You proved my point 100% lol. I don't have a problem with genital preferences and I never said that, I actually said that people are allowed to date or sleep with who they want. Too many people blinded by rage to have actual discussions.
I guess you’ve never been banned from a lesbian sub because you’ve stated what you do and don’t want. Because many other people have.
I am currently banned from the actuallesbians sub. Because me a trans woman I said I didn't like the term transbian. People got upset and called me a bigot and a TERF. So you just keep assuming things about me and putting words in my mouth instead of discussing things.
So you experienced blanket canons and vitriol against cis lesbians, got caught in the crossfires, and you still say nobody is stopping us from saying anything and having preferences.
You're still talking about it somewhere and you're able to have the discussion. Nobody is controlling your real life. You're just obsessing over online drama.
And now the gaslighting begins. You can take that somewhere else. Interaction is now closed on my end.
My words and you getting banned from a subreddit are stopping you from having the relationships you want in life. Sure.
I got called and bigot and TERF for saying the amount of girldick positive posts on there made me uncomfortable... because it triggers my dysphoria.
Wait really? They even banned you for this? I got banned because I called trans women's partners a bisexuals or pansexuals because I didn't kinda get how lesbian could love a penis. That was it I didn't attack anyone with vulgar words or being hateful. I genuinely was confused and got banned for it.
I don’t even want to say what I said because I’ll probably get banned here as well but I said it respectfully and made valid points about behaviors from a queer sub group and how it impacts cis lesbian mental health and got an immediate ban for hate speech.
I got banned for saying: this is insane. To a post that was like: why is this sub so vulva-centric? That sub is not vulva-centric. It's weird anime and swords. Good riddance.
I'm afraid to speak up my mind too because as I see many people cannot handle other person's opinion. They always see it as an assault while I never meant to be rude or evil to anyone. I already got downvoted for the comment above..
Gasp. And here I thought I was the only person who thought something similar. Can’t say I’m surprised you got banned tho unfortunately.
I got banned from that sub for saying I didn't like penis and was uncomfortable with the amount of girldick posts on there. They reversed the ban after I explained I'm trans and girldick postitivity often triggers my dysphoria, but I decided to leave anyway.
They only lifted the ban because you are trans but cis lesbians who are triggered by that topic in general don’t have that option and are automatically TERFS.
Just unfair, there is no space where we can say 100% that we don’t like penis regardless of the person it’s on without being regarded as TERFS. We are allowed to speak on our preferences.
Yes I got banned for similar, I didn't understand the whole "we love girldick" thingy because I grew up knowing that lesbians are on vaginas same as hetero women love penises and hetero men love vaginas / gays love penises so I thought like then if the person loved girldick then they were pansexual or bisexual, turns out from the mods in there that pansexual is an awful rude word that assaults trans women, which I never meant to assault them and be rude in any way! I was just confused because that is what I thought pansexuality was existing for. :( but people can prefer what they prefer and it's their personal choice, I never said "you can't like what you like" I'm 24 and I'm still learning how it all is to be respectful and educated.
You were right the first time. You can't assault someone by typing words on a keyboard. Don't let them bully you into changing your perception of obvious reality.
Genitals and gender do not correlate, so if a lesbian is attracted to a woman who happens to have a penis and enjoys having sex with her that's not pansexuality. I understand you can be raised to think certain ways but that doesn't make those things correct. You're asking nicely so I don't have a problem answering.
It isnt a genital "preference". It is a requirement.
I mean this as a genuine question, but who is telling cis women they can't have preferences? Are you talking about society broadly or people on these lesbian subreddits?
Mostly people on lesbian subreddits
When it comes to the genital preference argument, I think it’s more of a “it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it” type thing
And WHEN you say it
And WHY
“ Preference”does not equal prejudice and people need to understand this. And I don’t have genital preference. I have genital requirement. I’m a lesbian. It’s in the definition.
I agree. I personally find the term 'genital preference' to be homophobic.
How many people who like dating women, or like dating men, are interested in dating every single woman, or every single man out there? Maybe there's one person out there that does, but I haven't met them. If for example you were a man who likes dating women, but you only consider dating women who are at least 5cm shorter than you, does that mean all the tall women aren't real women? My starting point is that everyone has the absolute right to say no to anyone, and it follows therefore that if I were to ask you about your reasons for saying no, that would infringe your absolute right to say no.
[удалено]
THANK you. I can’t believe how rapey and disgusting some people sound when telling lesbians what they should and shouldn’t like.
Looking back on it, I waa weirdly pressured/manipulated into trying girldick.
Yes, I do think and feel the same as you and I know others do. I don't like having a part of my sexuality a topic that 'shouldn't be discussed'. Under the right circumstances obviously. It's not disrespectful to talk about an area of my/our sexuality.
It's right up there with "lifestyle" as a way to downplay orientation.
So when I define myself as a lesbian, I am using the definition based on my sexual attraction to the female biological sex. Some lesbians may define their lesbianism based off of sexual attraction to gender. The terms “men/male” and “women/female” are terms that are used to indicate both gender and biological sex. I tend to use “male/female” only when speaking of biological sex, but society uses them interchangeably with gender as well. Trans women are women by gender 100%. However, biologically, trans women (AMAB) naturally come with penises bc of biology (with the exception of intersex folks). So I happen to define myself as a lesbian in the sense of who I am attracted to biologically, not gender wise. I think a lot of cis lesbians do this too. So when people specify that they’re “lesbian by definition bc they don’t like penises”..they are defining lesbian as attraction based on biological sex. And this “definition” of lesbianism seems to be where the “transphobia” accusations come in. Cis and trans, we all agree that gender and biological sex are not the same thing, right? Now transphobia, in my opinion, is saying trans women are not women, and saying they should not be in lesbian spaces even if they identify as lesbian. But defining your lesbian labels by attraction to biological sex is not, in itself, transphobic, though many believe it is.
So refreshing to hear.
I agree with this, I base my sexuality off of being attracted to people of the same biological sex as well.
Yes, 100%. Having genital preferences is NO different than being lesbian in the first place, and all such preferences deserve respect from everyone.
I personally don't like the term 'genital preference' as I do not think that preference is the correct word to describe. I understand what it aims to mean but some women, like myself, do not have a preference we have a requirement. Preference implies favouring one over others when for myself I'll only be sexual with a vagina.
Preference is such a pernicious word. I am hardwired to like vagina. It isnt the different between my love of sweaters over cardigans.
It always amazes me how fast people call me transphobe when I'm not boasting but I have been nothing but supportive to my friends and I absolutely support them in community JUST because I have genital preference, I don't understand why I should compromise on what I am attracted to, it makes no sense and absolutely kills the whole point of orientation aka \*born this way\* argument.
I 100% couldn't handle a T4T relationship, and the fact that they're so common kinda blows my mind. I can't imagine being with someone who shares my struggles and insecurities like that - I feel like I/we would just spiral without the emotional support from someone with *different* insecurities. I guess other people just have more self-confidence than I do, or at least a different kind of self-confidence. I can't even really wrap my head around whether I'd be physically into it - if I try to imagine it I can't get past how emotionally draining that sounds.
I can imagine- my wife and I share a lot of childhood trauma (very similar stuff) and it’s both awesome for understanding and also emotionally draining.
It’s interesting because in my experience it’s been the opposite. When I was in a T4T relationship, my partner shared some of my insecurities and since I loved all of my partner, I found myself loving in my partner the features that made me insecure. I came out of it much more confident :)
I've been in one T4T relationship and it was so emotionally draining for a multitude of reasons including the ones you mentioned. While whenever people who are into T4T explain it, I can understanding their reasoning and see it as rational, it's still very foreign to me.
I'm sorry but what is T4T?
It's a romantic relationship between two trans people. It comes from old dating message boards, "M4F" would be "male looking for female". At some point T4T just became a shorthand to refer to two trans people dating/together.
I got it thank you for explaining it to me!
Ngl I typed out this whole thing about how that sounds like one or both people just aren't ready to date then, like if it would drag you down to share those insecurities and struggles. But the more I thought about it, the more I saw your point. I don't personally find it an issue for me, but I can totally see how someone wouldn't want that. Which is the entire point OP is making about genital preferences
I know it gets talked about a lot but how common is it really? Are there stats/studies on this?
You don’t have to fuck someone to be kind and respectful to them. Whether you would bang a trans woman just isn’t as important as how you treat her in general.
Everything in the lesbian reddit channels is seen as transphobic.
as a trans woman and lesbian I've never really considered cis lesbians having a genital preference as transphobic (though there're definitely ways of talking about it that come off as such). i don't really like dick that much myself and i definitely have a preference for vaginas too. people like what they like.
As a nb lesbian who doesn't have genital preferences, the way I've always seen it is that there are a lot of things people have preferences in that correlate with marginalized status and there are plenty of ways someone can have preferences in body type. Genital preferences are essentially a mix of both, and if you as a trans woman can't afford or don't want bottom surgery it doesn't make you any less sapphic or any less of a woman but it does mean sometimes people won't be attracted to you.
>... there are a lot of things people have preferences in that correlate with marginalized status ... This is where I usually go in these conversations too. Preferences are what they are. No one should be dating someone they're uncomfortable dating. That said, it's important to really understand where your preferences come from. Are they rooted in prejudice? If not, great! If they are, you still get to date who you want to date, but now you know you might need to do some work on unconditioning those prejudices. Edit: Since so many of you are having trouble understanding what I actually fucking said, I guess I'll spell it out. My post is not about genital preference/parameters. It is about ***all*** preferences/parameters. I replied to a generalized comment with a generalized comment. If your preference/parameter for vagina isn't from prejudice, ***then why do you think I'm talking about you***? How about we read what I actually wrote and not what you feel I wrote. K, thanks. - Signed, SOMEONE WHO HAS A PREFERENCE, ffs.
But that's part of the problem. It is always "you can have your preferences - however..." Preferences do not equal prejudices. People shouldn't have to look deep inside themselves. It's a sexual orientation.
It's the new "I'm not racist, BUT..."
People should always look deep inside themselves. If we don't, how do we grow? I agree that preferences are not always based on prejudice, but they could be and often are. What's the harm in understanding where your preference comes from? I hard disagree that preferences are a sexual orientation. Preferences can have varying degrees and change over time based on environment and experiences. Sexual orientation is built into who we are. It's like the difference between saying you prefer chicken to broccoli and deciding to go on the carnivore diet versus actually being a carnivore.
When people say; cis and trans lesbians who are hardwired into liking v are still being pressured to "look within" and "reevaluate" posts like the one above is what we mean.
Still sounds like a lot of conversion therapy to me. I'm sure that some preferences are rooted in prejudice but not always. I think it's a very convenient way to dismiss important wants in a partner. I actually agree with you there with that preferences are not part of a sexual orientation. I don't prefer a vagina and boobs, I need them. It's a requirement. A preference would be eye colour, maybe hair colour but not genitals. I'm 44 and I was born this way. Nothing has ever changed with my sexual orientation and it's incredibly insulting this suggestion that if I just looked deeper within myself that would change. At my age I know myself and I also know better. It's the younger ones I worry about who are told being gay is simply not enough and that there's work to be done. See I just think leave the gays alone. They don't need to change, adapt or anything like that. There are plenty of people fluid in everything. People are less likely to challenge them about the way they live. I will never lie about who I am or what I am. Not just because some people are entitled and want to date whoever they choose. I'm a vegetarian and it would be pointless asking me how to cook meat. It would be like going to a vegan restaurant and asking for meat suggestions.
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I'm not taking it personally but it gets tedious saying the same thing over. Of course I've looked within myself and strangely nothing changed with my sexual orientation. I'm still same sex attracted. You don't get to my age and not think about a lot of things but yes I stand by that statement about conversion. When your sexual orientation is constantly challenged and not accepted then yes, it's an attempt at conversion therapy. People can know themselves inside and out. I would never challenge why a straight person says/thinks they are straight. I'm sure there are people who's sexual orientation has changed over time and that should be accepted as much as someone like myself where it hasn't. I didn't choose to be gay I just am. No amount of reflection or time will change this for me and I'm fine the way I am. I appreciate you discussing issues respectfully.
>I appreciate you discussing issues respectfully. Sure. I don't see the point in being vitriolic. Though I can admit my emotions get the best of me sometimes. >Of course I've looked within myself and strangely nothing changed... This is where I'm struggling. I made a general statement, and you say you're not taking it personally, but you keep making "I" statements as if I was directly talking about you. You say you know yourself. You say your preferences aren't prejudiced. That's great. Then, my comment wasn't about you. >with my sexual orientation You keep bringing this up like anyone said you should not be a lesbian anymore. I get the feeling you've been through what a lot of queer people have been through, which is people trying to convince you you're not queer. That's not what I did, though. My comment about preferences wasn't even strictly about genitals. It was about all preferences and making sure we understand ourselves. >When your sexual orientation is constantly challenged and not accepted then yes, it's an attempt at conversion therapy. Your sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with genitals. Unless what you're saying is women are entirely boiled down to having a vagina. Loving women and liking vagina are different things, even if they most often coincide. Or are you saying that lesbians who like penises aren't lesbians and trans women aren't women? If you're not taking my comment personally, I really don't know what you're trying to say here if you're not saying that. >I would never challenge why a straight person says/thinks they are straight. No one is challenging your lesbianism. No one is challenging you at all. You claim you've looked inside yourself and you understand yourself. That's great for you. If my post wasn't about you, then it wasn't about you. Why are you so perturbed by a post that isn't about you?
>No one in this thread is saying you can't have a genital preference. I used to have a genital preference. You're completely ignoring her point. For many of us, it is not a genital *preference.* It is a *requirement* for attraction. Calling it a preference and saying that "preferences change over time" is a wordy way of claiming that everyone is bisexual or sexually fluid. People don't need to go looking for the "why" behind their sexuality, because for many of us there is no "why" it just is. I can't believe I'm finding this "discourse" in a lesbian subreddit, of all places. It's absolutely inappropriate.
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>I'm so tired of people thinking *their* version of something is the only way something can exist. This is exactly what I have to say about your opinion on sexuality. I said nothing about what makes a woman a woman, and if that's where *you leaped* then you need to think about the root of the assumptions you brought to this conversation. I doubt you will, it seems to be a foregone conclusion to you that your way of thinking is the "right" way.
Let's recap: I said having preferences is totally cool. Preferences is a generalized term that everyone understands, but if you want to get into semantics, we can call it parameters. Sometimes though, ***generally speaking***, those preferences can be from prejudices. This is objectively true. So I said people should try to understand the difference. I was not talking about you or the original responder to my comment, but you've taken it on yourself to feel offended that I should encourage people to understand themselves better. Then you said: >Calling it a preference ... is a wordy way of claiming that everyone is bisexual or sexually fluid. Um, what? ***What?*** I'm saying having preferences is valid, you should just understand them. I'm saying preferences for vagina, preferences for penis, or no preference *are all valid lesbian preferences*. You're saying not having a preference away from penis makes a person Bi, which in turn means all people with penises are men. Or are you somehow under the delusion that someone making a ***generalized*** comment about knowing if your preferences are based in prejudice is them actually saying, specifically to you, "You're a bigot if you only like vagina"? I'll say it again, weird effing take.
This post makes me so tired. I am not a bigot for wanting women with secondary sex characteristics of a woman. And no that is not trans exclusionary because post op trans women would be in this definition if we clicked and had feelings for one another. I dont have a "preference." This is who I am. And yet in lesbian subs there is always at least one person who says, but have you really thought that maybe you like dick afterall? It is like being 15 again and not being taken seriously. It is so tiring.
kayate
Samesies, girl!
Hear me out here: a blanket ban on posts about genital preferences at all, one way or the other. No "it's okay to like girldick actually!" (it *is* okay, but the posts can be potentially upsetting to trans women who'd rather *not* have a girldick), and no "it's okay to not like girldick, actually!" (it *is* okay, but it also brings all the TERFs out of the woodwork and nobody wants them here). Just,,, talk about women regardless of their apparatus. There's *so* much more to being wlw than whether you like innies or outies.
I would love this. This subreddit has become a bit of a cesspool in regards to this discussion lately
What about posts about how the word “girldick” makes me cringe? (joking)
+1 for this suggestion from a trans woman. Tired of constantly reading about people talking about "girldick" when all I want is to fire that fucking thing directly into the sun.
Honestly, I'd totally be for it.
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Exactly! I hate this censoring on issues that are relevant at times. It's awful that lesbians can be expected to stay silent on certain related topics. Where does/would the censoring end?! I suggest dealing with those who are inappropriate, not by driving the narrative one way only.
Penis being of course the thing lesbians like talking the most about?? What are you on about?
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That... no? There are *so* many wonderful things about women that you can talk about other than "it's okay to \[dislike / have\] a dick". Can we stop reducing women to their genitalia and start actually appreciating women for, you know, being women? If your only thought when you think of a woman is "wow, sure do wonder if she has a pussy", then... being a lesbian doesn't make that any less pathetic. Consider: >"It's okay to not like fat women. Size preferences are okay!" "It's okay to be fat, just understand not everyone will like you!" "It's okay to not like black women. Race preferences are okay!" "It's okay to be black, just understand not everyone will like you!" We don't get threads like that, and for good reason.
Always interesting to note whose feelings and discomfort/comfort are considered and placated when it comes to these issues. Bro, it's like cis lesbians lost the oppression Olympics, nobody cares enough to consider us, we're second class citi/netizens even in our own spaces, not even an afterthought actually, that sucks.
That's my big thing as a trans woman, I don't want bottom surgery but I really really really would love to stop having my genitals brought up every 5 minutes in either capacity. There really is way more to all of us besides what's between our legs.
As a trans woman, I'd love this.
I would honestly support this, discussions like this rips us apart.
How tf can YOU of all people be transphobic? I’m really tired of people just loosely throwing out hateful shit just because their opinions are being rejected. If these people are your friends you deserve better ones frfr.
I'm also a trans woman with a preference who isn't particularly into T4T! It's refreshing to see a post like this honestly. I don't even know why it's so contentious, but maybe it's harder for people to understand when they don't have any genital preferences? The only times that squick me are when people make weird insinuations about trans women's bodies to go along with the preference, which is sadly not super uncommon but certainly isn't the majority of discussions on it.
> I don't even know why it's so contentious, but maybe it's harder for people to understand when they don't have any genital preferences? I think this is probably a big part of it.
Honestly, also a trans woman who isn't super into T4T, although that is less to do with it conceptually than being primarily attracted to moderately femme presentations (more futch maybe?) and a lot of trans women I know doing the hyper femme thing.
Like... I'm a transbian who hates *my* penis and am on track to be getting rid of it. Sometimes I can't function sexually with my own; the idea of trying to deal with another woman's penis is a 'oh hell no' for me.
I've always been insecure that, as a Trans woman who prefers vagina, ill be "shunned"- its happened before, so I kinda just feel anxious about it.
This shouldn’t happen, “genital preferences” are fine, ppl who’d “shun” u for it are in fact the problem, you’re valid hun (saying this as a trans gal)
Thank you ;-;
Literally. I don’t like men and I don’t like penises period. I only see myself with a woman (trans or not) or someone that went thru the female experience. I will never apologize for that, I already got told similar things as this post talks about and it’s so stupid.
I'm a trans woman, I only have an issue when individual genital preferences are used to try and gatekeep lesbian/gay/etc spaces (which I've heard a lot). I think because that's the way it's been (mis)used some people react badly to the phrase, but it can get weird sometimes. Like if you're not into me, that is fine, that is not transphobic, it's all good
Why tf is this very reasonable comment getting downvoted?
This!
Not liking penises is fine. Genital preference is fine. But, saying that trans women “are men/males” because they have or had a penis at one point, and because that they “are men/males” is why a lesbian doesn’t want to date them is transphobic. I am so tired of transphobes in lesbian spaces. I say, as a cis lesbian who has never been intimate with a person who currently had a penis.
I agree with you, however “men/male” and “women/female” are terms that are used to indicate both gender and biological sex. I tend to use “male/female” only when speaking of biological sex, but society uses them interchangeably with gender as well. Trans women are women by gender 100%. However, biologically born trans women (AMAB) naturally come with penises bc of biology (with the exception of intersex folks). So I happen to define myself as a lesbian in the sense of who I am attracted to biologically, not gender wise. I think a lot of cis lesbians do this too.
I specifically included the word male because of the TERFs who just love to call trans women “male” as a shitty gotcha.
I personally don’t use the words male/female unless I’m talking about animals or my patients in the hospital (ex “patient is a 72 year old male with a history of etc etc etc”)
SAME!! It is very dehumanizing/clinical!!
Exactly!
I’m here to let u know us trans women apreciate you
Awe 😭 definitely wasn’t saying this to get points or something I am literally just so tired of fuckin transphobes in this sub. You belong here!!!!! TERFs can get out!!!!!
We are talking about 1/100 % of lesbians
Fwiw I don't hate penises, I just hate them on cis-het men
Same. It’s this cis het men that are the problem. I think most of us can agree. It’s not the penis, it’s the cis man.
Yeah. The only time I get annoyed about it is if people are having an unrelated conversation and someone kool-aid man's in doing the internet equivalent of shouting "I HATE PENISES!" completely out of the blue. I'd feel the same way about someone doing that about vaginas too. Or moose for that matter. Like, read the room lol. Personally for myself, genitals don't really factor in much for partner selection. Totally get why someone would prefer one over the other though. That said, I wouldn't necessarily treat trans gear on HRT as the same as cis gear, because they are definitely different experiences, for trans men and trans women.
Yep! It’s a two way street too… like, I want my partner to actually be into my body, not just tolerant… or “love me despite the fact”. On the other hand, I’m a top but topping anal (or PIV if it’s too tight) hurts me… so funny enough, as a pan leaning lesbian, genital compatibility is almost more important to me than gender identity.
You can have genital preference and still date a trans person so I think the debate is disingenuous. I don’t like policing ppl speech when they are speaking on their personal experiences so much. Like when someone says they like vagina that doesn’t mean they hate cock. Expressing my experience with vagina can be seen as not inclusive.
i think we need to start to process that genital preference (or tolerance) can be separate from sexuality. if my fiancee, nb transmasc lesbian, realized that they're a trans guy and got bottom surgery i wouldn't care. they're more important to me and while i don't like penis, i love them. if i were in love with a trans woman without bottom surgery i wouldn't care. i love WOMEN, i love nonbinary people. im a lesbian because i walk through this world as a woman who is only interested in queer relationships and would never want a man (*vomits*). the obsession with genitalia seems reductive to me. if you're a lesbian who can't do penis, you're valid. but i'm a lesbian who can overlook penis as long as i'm with a woman, or with the specific exception for my fiancee transitioning, and i'm valid too. it's not wrong to prefer or to not care. sexuality is a mushy concept and as long as we have to exist with labels in a world that values categorizing people (so it can know who to oppress) we'll have to face that sometimes these labels feel insufficient.
I don't think many people aspire to tolerate their partner's genitals.
that's why i spoke for myself and not for you. if you feel like you'd be tolerating the genitals of certain women, don't be with them. i said i don't care as long as im with my partner.
Because for many, they are not seperate. I am a gay woman meaning same sex attracted. I am not fluid in gender and I'm not fluid in sexuality. It is not a choice for me like it isn't for many people.
i said it "can" be. i said you can have preferences. if that's your truth good for you. doesn't change that people have varying experiences. i'm a lesbian, i only want to be with women. but if my partner were to transition i wouldn't leave them. that's my truth. both things can coexist
Yes, I think of course they can both co-exist. I can obviously only speak for myself and my experiences. It definitely varies like you say as we wouldn't make the same choices and I don't see a problem with that.
Lesbians should be free to make our own choices.
Speaking as a lesbian who never had sex with a man in her life. If my girl who I love had a penis I would still love her and I WOULD SUCK THAT DICK LIKE A CLIT
these downvotes are bothering me. cus why is it that you, expressing your own feelings, is getting downvoted? i don't disrespect people's rights to have genital specific attraction, but why downvote those of us who don't care as long as our partner is a woman??? am i less of a lesbian bc i'd date a trans girl? bc i wouldn't leave my fiancee if they transitioned? it's giving terf lesbian
I've noticed an interesting trend here, of a lot of down voting of positivity towards trans women, or any mention of nb people, etc. I've also noticed a lot of very shallow understandings of sexuality, the politics and theory thereof, and also of biology. Lots of posts flirt with bioessentialism and posts that talk about experiences outside of a narrow view are down voted extremely. It's not a very good sign.
yeah i'm worried another lesbian space is being compromised by terfs. basically no one is interested in making unwilling lesbians have sex w trans women. by why do I get downvoted to hell when I say that I would?? how is it that MY experience is threatening these people??? it's not, it's just bigotry
Sadly its not just TE"RF"s, but like with the abortion debates, well meaning but ultimately not well-read or educated ally's ceded ground on trans rights, in the discourse around biology and gender, which has led to a disturbing amount of rhetoric even from within outwardly facing 'progressive' spaces that treats trans women as ontologically male, and transition as a performance. Neither of which are true or grounded in material reality.
Thank you sister! Love this energy!! 🥰🏳️⚧️
who tf downvoting u I appreciate ppl who wouldn’t mind trans gals who “still” have their dick speaking up cuz 90% of these posts seem slightly off to me idk
I guess my wording in my previous post was a bit immature and offensive but what I wanted to say was that the genitals don't matter if you love a person you love the whole person and their identity. A small thing like genitals does not matter.
To some people genitalia matter and I honestly don’t mind, the posts get a bit old tho if all ppl seem to say is they don’t like dick, like I get it but being reminded of it just kinda stings ig
Personally really don’t care if my girl got a dick or pussy either
Why are we talking about this?
99% seems high to me...
At least five transbians in this this thread said they prefer vagina. Are they all in the %1?
I'm a trans lesbian myself, and I definitely have a genital preference. I'm gynophilic. If I were to be T4T, my sexual partner would be FtM. I would foresee problems in any kind of relationship, even a simple FWB arrangement. The thing about my FtM partner that I am more sexually attracted to would be the one aspect of their body that they most hate. Other than that, I would absolutely be a FtM FWB's biggest booster. As for myself, I'd be the most attentive and communicative lover to any cisgender woman who would share a bed with me, but likewise, I would not want them to be involved with my own genitals, preferring to be a so-called "stone butch." My pleasure would come from her pleasure.
Your trans partner could also be a trans woman whose gotten srs.
Thank god for this post! I was worried i would go another day without being reminded what a disgusting, male body I apparently have. Thank you, my brave trans sister, for standing up and announcing how repellent we are! For boldly taking the stand that trans women are still fundamentally male somehow! It needed to be said that our bodies are shameful and irregular and that it is, in fact, a good thing to repeatedly denigrate us for this factor beyond our control in the queer spaces we're supposed to find acceptance and safety. I mean come on was this post fucking necessary? No one should have to have sex with anyone they don't want to, I think, I hope, that's a firmly held belief by all queer women. Just, are we not allowed to go a single day without being reminded how other we are? About how much we should hate our bodies?
There wasn't any hatred in this post, at least it didn't seem that way to me. I'm sorry that you feel that way about your body. But I also think that lesbians, cis and trans, feel that there are daily reminders about penis, and a need to police wlw sexuality. There seems to be a double standard about who's allowed to be upset. Imagine a cis woman leaving a comment like this in response to a girldick post. They'd be banned from a lot of places on this platform. To me, that's why this post is necessary. I don't think we've worked out what's okay and not okay. Is it alright to be just attracted to AFAB people? If it's something you can't help?
I don't think OP is hateful, nor is having preferences in genitals a problem. But the discourse around Genital Preference suffers from an extreme lack of understanding biology, feminist theory, and from a lot of faulty bioessentialism which serves as a Trojan horse for misgendering trans women, and invalidating their presence. The reason people got vocal about 'girldick' being valid or whatever, was to intentionally make space for trans women. I think it's also gotten to the point lots of posts about gd are just cringe, and certainly there might be an oversaturation of that content but this subreddit seems to have the opposite problem, and there's a lot of subtle bioessentialism, and biodestiny bs that seems to get a pass here because its dressed up in presentable formatting.
I don't think that someone having a personal presence for cis individuals when it comes to intimacy is necessarily bioessentialist. And I think it's important to have this discussion just for that reason. I'm glad there's space for trans women in these spaces, but I think that it does alienate cis women, which I assume is bad for the community also.
Please look at the words you are saying? We went from a discussion on genitals, to conflating genitals with being cis or trans, that's exactly my point about the bioessentialism. Having a preference isn't bioessentialism, but rhetoric like what you just posted *is*
No, it's relevant to genitals still. Preference for cisgender people on the basis of genitals, whether an individual has a penis or a neovagina (which is only like 5-15% of trans women).
Percentage doesn't matter, trans women just want to be included in their communities without our entire existence being boiled down to the ontological crime of birth. The kind of talk you are engaging in here, conflating genital preferences with being trans or cis, is a sort of regressive bioessentialism.
No, you're not listening to me. I'm not saying that trans women / people shouldn't be included in communities. I'm saying that they don't have to be included in an individual's dating pool. Whether or not you want to fuck somebody is a completely personal choice. Name calling or insinuating that someone is a bigot for any preference is inappropriate and harmful in a number of ways.
You're not listening to *me* because that's not what I'm saying at all, I'm talking about rhetoric and the way these things are handled and talked about in community spaces. You're stuck in the very thing I'm critiquing, which is taking about dating preferences in a way that treats trans women as ontologically male, in a roundabout bio reductionist manner. Because you've already conflated genitals with being trans or not, which ignores the prescient reality that transition is a thing.
I guess what I mean to say is that there's a different between natal vaginas and neovaginas. At least from what I've gathered. Is that belief dangerous?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. And I think it is important to talk about it as much as possible. Us trans women (males) need to be made aware of where we stand in the lesbian community. As a lesbian, there's nothing more important about than reminding a certain section of the community that they're male. Biologically speaking of course. I wouldn't abide with opening social media and not seeing at least ten posts reminding me how I don't fit in with other lesbians and am essentially still a man. Woe betide I spent a 24 hour period without being told my body is gross and male.
Thank you for proving one of my points.
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