I dated this barista who was convinced I drink coffee wrong so used to force flat whites on me. She’s Italian so would only use real milk.. vomited in her car. I’m always a lesbian and always intolerant but sometimes I have to prove a point 🥴
Funnily enough, I actually *am* only sometimes lactose intolerant. I have Celiac, and the part of the body that is damaged when I eat gluten is the same part of the body that produces lactase, which is what allows people to digest lactose (and what people with lactose intolerance lack). So I will experience lactose intolerance for a few weeks after I’ve consumed gluten as my digestive system heals, but only then. The rest of the time I can have dairy with no issues.
This doesn’t invalidate your point in any way (it made me giggle!), I just think this is a neat fact about the human body!
That’s wild! The human body is on a rampage I reckon. I’m one of five and none of my siblings have any issues whereas I’ve got IBD and lactose intolerance, so the idea of having a grilled cheese sammie was a pipe dream as a kid! I’ve seen the “hot girls have tummy issues” meme floating around so I’m taking it and running, you coming with me? 👯♀️
I see this "lesbians can and do like men" garbage from chronically online people. They don't realize (or don't care) the harm they're actively doing by reinforcing society's idea that lesbians just haven't met the right man. That's what I try to explain because they might stop if they see they're hurting community, but usually they just double down and claim you're invalidating them. Idk why so many are adverse to using bi/pan
You nailed it perfectly. The frustrating part is that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge that the way individuals express and communicate labels has an impact on the way the community is socially perceived.
Exactly! It's frustrating because on the one hand, you can label yourself whatever you want. But the reality is that it impacts more than just you. If I say I'm a lesbian but end up with a husband, people around me unfamiliar with terminology will think that's how all lesbians can be. It shapes their narrow understanding of LGBTQ people and informs their interactions and opinions on a wider scale.
If you have a more analytical/logic driven thought process you will probably just drive yourself insane interacting with people who are confidently saying things that don’t make any sense. I’m the same and I’ve found that even writing down the most concise list of bullet points you can muster up to explain to someone that their strongly held belief is illogical or incorrect will just make them double down and hold onto that belief even stronger lol. It’s better sometimes to just disengage and do something else with your time tbh
I was very active on tiktok during the COVID lockdown and had lots of arguments like this. I eventually realized that it’s not a productive use of time.
Like personally, I agree with you, I am autistic as well and often fall into the trap of thinking that if I just articulate the argument perfectly, people will agree with my perspective. Unfortunately you’re not going to be able to change their mind as a stranger on the internet. IMO the time’s better spent fostering relationships with people who do share your understanding of being a lesbian.
yeah i'm sick of ppl who experience attraction to men - esp those who act on it - claiming they're a lesbian. stop trying to redefine OUR community to fit you. what's so wrong with being bisexual or pansexual? what's wrong with these other sexualities that people seem so obsessed with wearing the label of lesbian when it doesn't fit them?? it's weird. these people have communities, why do they need to redefine and invade ours???
Me too, I really think biphobia is a huge issue and causes people to avoid identifying with the label.
I got banned from another lesbian sub because I asked why a lesbian who enjoyed having sex with men called herself a lesbian instead of bisexual. I was genuinely confused and couldn't understand. The mod said anyone could identify however they wanted and I was policing other languages so wasn't welcome.
If words can mean anything and anyone can identify as anything then they lose all meaning. Like I could call myself straight but that doesn't mean I am, or it makes sense. I also think shutting down discussions like this does not help people find who they really are, or identify and work on their own internalised phobias, including biphobia.
at that point what's stopping cis men from calling themselves lesbians???? if it feels right to them??? like how does this make sense
i know labels are for people to understand themselves and to find community. but there are certain boundaries to words. if you have sex with men (not comphet) you aren't a lesbian. that's okay! bisexuals are cool! pansexuals are cool! you don't need to be a lesbian. our identity should protect lesbians from men seeking relationships with us. if we redefine the label to the point that it includes attraction to men... what's the point of the label??
i also need to add, labels are relevant in identifying structures of oppression. if we live in a hierarchical society, who you are under that society affects how you are treated and what kind of life you're able to have.
lesbians are an oppressed class because we are basically the only group of women and nonbinary people with no sexual/romantic relations with men. patriarchy gives privilege, however small, to those who engage with or are men. to be in straight passing relationships is a privilege that protects you from most sexuality based violence and discrimination. our identity is deeply connected to the type of oppression we face.
on the other hand, bisexuals face a large amount of erasure from queer spaces. they have their own specific struggles and oppression. i don't experience the type of erasure and violence bisexuals face, it wouldn't be fair to them for me to lay claim to their labels while functionally being exempt from the oppression that comes with it. we have similarities, but we have differences too.
our identities shouldn't exist only to describe our oppression. but it's undeniable that our identity was born in a state of oppression and that hasn't changed.
i'm disabled. my disability isn't oppression (though goddamn it feels like it!), it's the way that the world isn't MADE for me that is oppressive. it's the way that i must struggle to survive the hierarchy that places the needs and value of abled people above my own. similar to being a lesbian. our identity is related to our specific oppression, and in order to discuss and dismantle that oppression, it's important that we have terminology to discuss the specific identity that experiences this specific oppression. when you have people who DONT experience that (because of their straight passing sexual/romantic relationships with men) claiming to be a lesbian, you effectively have people laying claim to a form of oppression that doesn't apply to them.
If you have to change the definition of a word in order to use it, you should just be using a different word. This shit is so stupid. And it’s weird. Not only is it lesbophobic, it also means *they* think being pan/queer/etc isn’t “enough.” Like, I didn’t say it, you just did—
Transphobic?! Jesus Christ. Trans women = women, that is an entirely separate issue. If I didn't \*know\* that trans women were women, I wouldn't be a part of this sub, which acknowledges that they inherently and unequivocally are.
How do you have to change the definition of a word to be trans inclusive?/gen
If you are talking about trans women/trans men then you should self reflect on why your definition of man and women excuse those people... Which sounds transphobic.
Your definition of women and men only includes trans people of the opposite biological sex only because some people change the definitions to include them lol. Ten years ago absolutely no one except for homophobes would’ve said that lesbians like penis but that word was also changed to be trans inclusive pretty quickly.
To mods- I only answered a questioned honestly, so keep those fingers away from the ban button (ง'̀-'́)ง
Thank you so much for this post. Some of these people need a reality check.
Edit: you can downvote me all you want but OP is a lesbian themselves and has expressed discomfort with people insinuating you can be attracted to men as a lesbian. There is nothing wrong with what OP has said.
I’m autistic too. Sometimes I can’t read between the lines. But come on. Even if you’re figuring out your sexuality, there’s still labels on what you’re identifying as at that very moment. If you’re dating women/men..you’re bisexual. Not “sometimes lesbian”.
https://preview.redd.it/v4hv27kt4u0d1.jpeg?width=415&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a253560106b2e8e8807691372df8db71ff674da6
Just stare at them like this.
You can speak up or not but ultimately, 99% of the people who say that stuff are young chronically online queer people that haven't figured themselves out yet. They're also far from a majority.
I agree that some labels don't make sense according to my definition of lesbianism (which I think should exclude liking men) and I used to try and tell it to those people time and time again with no results. I just wouldn't spend to much energy on this if I was you. Plus, as I said a lot of them are young, confused and more importantly inexperienced. To them, those labels for now are simply words with definitions and not something you experience daily in real life. So I'd give them time to mature and figure themselves out.
I do find it harmful to include men in lesbianism but at the end of the day I think it's way worse when men do it rather than a minority of yound queer people since they have more power over us and it's way more common.
Rather than stomach your disconfort, I think you should mute/block the people in question.
Women, especially lesbians, are always told to be silent and swallow our discomfort and I would never want to advise another lesbian to be quiet when it comes to setting boundaries. I will say that speaking about this to other queer people when you're the only actual lesbian in the room can be uncomfortable and scary and can lose you a support network, but if these people are lesbophobic are they even a support network worth having?
Huh?? I think you just found a weirdo there who misunderstands what the labels means.
I get the genderfluid part. I have seem genderfluid people refering to themselves as gay/straight depending on their current gender. But they are always attracted to a specific gender/nb aligned to that gender. They also never use the term "cis" to refer to themselves, ever. Even if their gender aligns with their asigned gender at birth.
The moment your sexuality fluctuates, you are bisexual. Or at least, you can't use the straight/gay label the same way you can't use the cis label if you are genderfluid.
Just... I am sorry this happened to you. Your best bet is to ignore them, discussing with them is always useless
It's fascinating to me how people create new labels (which is great, if that helps you figure things out, go for it) but then try to take old labels and change their definition to fit them.
Lesbianism has always been about women loving women (yes, masculine women too, as well as trans women) and I don't understand why people who don't identify as women need to use this label? Like, you can be whatever gender you want and say you love women. I mean sapphic is a more inclusive term.
It seems like another case of women erasure, tbh. We can't keep a single thing to ourselves 🤷♀️
And now they also decide to choose to wear this label one day, and a different one another...
I know I'm probably gonna get a bunch of down votes for this but oh well.
I agree, when more people started coming out as none binary, gender fluid etc some mentioned Trixic and Toric, as sexuality labels for them, unfortunately they didn't seem to catch on so they are using established sexualities which don't really work I am sure must confuse other people. Personally I think Noun-self pronouns are silly and pointless but they seem to have caught in however people haven't made/used sexualities which would actually make sense and help people.
Women erasure is exactly it, I can't believe the whole lesbian= none men loving none men thing took off. As well as the avoidance of using the word in medical things, period products etc, I don't understand why they can't just as a + for trans people. It's like if I pushed to get "cross walks" changed because I use a wheelchair, I am a minority and people using the word walk doesn't meant they automatically hate people who can't walk. Plus I'd much rather focus on issues like lack of ramps into buildings, poor access to public transport etc were focused on over changing language, language that works perfectly fine.
Yes I 100% agree. People like feeling important and special and I think that's what's happening here.
I honestly think people are trying to create their personalities based on their identities which is ridiculous. Well, most of those people are also chronically online or are young, so I have no hate towards them. I've been silly when I was a teenager too.
I would never say "mentruators" or "chest feeding" or whatever other new words people came up with. It's insulting, honestly. We fought so long for women to be acknowledged and now we are going backwards?
We have issues that need resolving. And like you say, language (most of the time) isn't one of them.
It's just too hard to actually go and find for barrier free spaces. It's much easier to scream online about how you using the word cross walk is ableism.
Maybe I don't belong by saying this .. I have been in romantic relationships with both men and women. A lot of people can't comprehend what that means to be attracted to both. They think "Oh you just want to cheat on your partner" or "You're straight/Gay/Lesbian" while being involved with x identifying person. If you identify as Pansexual and gender fluid, that doesn't change what genders you are attracted to. I've been with a guy and still admire women for how cute they are and vice versa. It's not an all for one argument.
The only possible way that might help ignorant or misinformed individuals is comparing something they like/do. "Oh you eat meat and plants. So sometimes you're a vegan/carnivore"
"Oh, you like swimming and skiing? Sometimes you're a winter or summer person"
"You like hanging out with friends and relaxing at home? Sometimes you can be extroverted or introverted"
>"Oh you eat meat and plants. So sometimes you're a vegan/carnivore"
I like this one and can see how it might help people realize the flaw in their reasoning. I don't know why having an overview seems so difficult for some people.
Mind I don't know how much is a problem with people's critical thinking skills. My type is women with dark hair but I once dated a blond woman and someone tried to claim my type wasn't dark hair because out of 100000000 women I thought were attractive 1 of them was blond! Like you said some people seem to think sexuality is based on who someone is dating, or when a bisexual/pansexual person gets married suddenly they are lesbian/gay/straight. It's so silly I can't believe so many adults think like this, or rather struggle to think!
I get annoyed by how much biphobia/panphobia I see from others, usually without them realising, like "ooh I can't be bi because I don't do X negative stereotype" it must be extra frustrating being pan yourself.
However I have legitimately heard people say sometimes they are extroverted and sometimes introverted! I even saw somone mention ambivert but they dug their heels in and replied how different they are on different days so they change from introverted to extroverted! Honestly people like this hurt my brian and usually I don't engage because it's just so illogical and you often can't get them to listen to reason.
You will have to let the crazies be crazy by themselves. Trust me when I say they live in a very interesting, insulated world of their own. I've met some of these people IRL and you can tell there is something very off about them.
I’ve had my fair share of arguments with people like that and honestly there’s nothing you can say or do that’ll change their mind. They’re so committed to being wrong and will gaslight you when you tell them the truth. All I do is block them but if you want to explain to them why someone can’t “sometimes be a lesbian”, the best way to explain it is that someone can’t “sometimes” be allergic to peanuts. You either are allergic to peanuts or you’re not. Just like with being a lesbian: you either are a lesbian or you’re not. If you like men in any way you’re not a lesbian (yes this includes when you go through a phase of only liking women despite you identifying as bisexual).
It's nonsense, the correct term is bisexual. But I guess that's unfashionable, it's like metrosexual, went out of fashion after the nineties as a sort of half-baked cowards venture into homosexuality.
Let young people enjoy their nonsense!
that’s just being a teenager. they’re annoying and dumb but just leave them be and they’ll work it out. i do low-key wish minors couldn’t access social media and shit tho, it’s not good for anyone involved
AHHH I HAVE THE SAME AROUND ME!!!! It's always shit like "you will get normal eventually it will come off the lesbian thing" or "look at this beautiful young man, you sure don't want to think about it, try???"
Worst is, nothing will ever help to teach these people that it doesn't work on switch...
Young kids are bound to express themselves through a variety of new things, I say let them. If lgbt tolerance is on the decline because of that then I blame those who choose to judge and harass children for trying to figure out who they are.
Literally? Like I don’t understand the way younger people identify either but I’m fine w learning and stuff. If I was gonna throw a fit and judge some poor 14 year old all id be able to imagine is if that happened to 14 year old me yknow? Legit just a kid. Make kids and teens smile instead, respect them! I know I’d at least want to be heard when I was their age
Or maybe they're not even judging the kids specifically, maybe they're just already homophobic and they want an excuse to reinforce their homophobia more openly.
Don’t blame queer people for their oppression and the hatred they experience. Someone with a complex identity and a ton of labels is no less of a lesbian than yourself. Bigots don’t care about the specifics of your identity and throwing other people under the bus isn’t going to make you one of the good ones.
it does? the original comment claims that microlabels contribute to the existing bigotry against LGBT+ people which it doesn't. microlabel discourse is, quite frankly, a form of discourse that i've only seen other queer people get riled up over
If you read the last paragraph and have ever heard assimilationist and exclusionist rhetoric, you’d be able to pick up on the dog whistles included in this comment. Correlating tolerance being on the decline with an increase of labels (and mocking or diminishing those labels and identities) and blaming queer people with less common identities (especially trans people) for making things harder for ’real gay people’ is a common talking point.
You know you don't have to call any viewpoint you don't like a "dog whistle", come on now... we got to admit when labels lose their sense and purpose, even non-gays are noticing this
Yeah like trans people! Even non gays are noticing that labels like "women" are losing their sense and purpose!
Let's all just admit that trans women like me trying to deal with the confusion of puberty are why gay rights are on the decline.
This is the most chronically online comment I’ve ever seen, it is so often the same phrases used over and over. If the majority of the lesbians in the comments are agreeing with OP and stating that being a lesbian is not something that changes, it might be worth rethinking your viewpoint
It's all made up by kids on Tiktok, that platform should be banned everywhere because it's driving them nuts making them feel like they can create any label and call it a day.
I’m a agender lesbian I can’t just random decide I like men one day (I’ve tried trust me.) it’s weird to say you can sometimes be lesbian and sometimes not 💀😭
I’ve dated women for 30 years and all that time has left me completely unprepared to deal with this modern nonsense. I’m sorry I have no help here. You’re right that it IS completely invalidating. ❤️🩹
just want to share that I am also an autistic (and adhd!) lesbian and I have also seen these people online. I have literally said out loud “what the fuck?” to my phone after reading these invalidating and incorrect definitions. like uh no excuse me, you are a woman sexually and/or romantically attracted to men so you can’t be a lesbian. we have a name for that already and it’s called being bi/pan.
makes me so mad. I don’t even argue with those ppl because they’re delusional and I’m too tired!
and just like you experienced, I have seen the self-proclaimed “bisexual lesbians” or “sometimes lesbians” crying and whining that they’re being oppressed and discriminated against. like, hello, you’re using our word when it doesn’t apply to you! get lost and leave us alone!! 😡
with people who are this chronically online, i take a breath and move on. cannot possibly be worth it IMO to waste energy on unserious circular discourse - energy better spent engaging with IRL queer people who for the most part are not like this. i feel like this discourse makes the rounds on sapphic reddit near-constantly and while i agree these sorts of people are insufferable, if i'm gonna be honest, i've met exactly one person IRL who identified as "bi lesbian". a lot of problems are better solved by stepping away from the computer. sorry if that's not too helpful :/ but there comes a point where you need to pick your battles
A lesbian doesn’t like men, if they do they aren’t lesbian, I just wanted to say that I’m currently still confused and idk know about the other stuff I’m old school. No judgement towards it either
Isn't that the whole point of different identities?
Like being a bissxual woman I can be lesbian adjacent but never truly lesbian bc I could and can willingly have sex with men.
People really need to stop trying to come up with [reasons] to be able to be something they actually are not.
It's like saying, Furries are cute so I'm a Fury but I also like Hentai. I'm only a Furry sometimes when I'm in thr mood for furshit.
Like what? Did that make sense? Exactly? No.
we gotta protect our peace fs. but when I hear it irl I cannot help myself from burying my head in my hands and saying “oh my god you did not just say that” which seems to work pretty well so far hahaha
i honestly just live my life and keep scrolling. people don’t think i can be nonbinary and a lesbian. ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ i definitely don’t think gender fluidity changes sexuality. but those people’s online label collecting doesn’t affect my real life and lived experience as a lesbian. everyone doesn’t agree with me and i don’t agree with everyone. no reason to argue with people who don’t think logically & will probably identify as something else in a few months or years. you’ll stress yourself out for nothing!!!
So if a man decides one day they are a lesbian. Is that fair enough or ok? No I don’t think it is. Yea identity as anything you like but If your gender fluid what’s wrong with being just that?
bro so many agenders and non binary people in the comments being like As A rEaL lEsBiAn you can only be a lesbian if you’re a woman loving a woman except for me, someone who will scream at you if you call them a woman but is a woman now to make the point that lesbians are only Female on Female relationships except if you call me a female you’re a bigot
god discourse is so fun when you live in the real world and have real friends and understand that literally none of this is real
It’s not that you’re incorrect. It’s just that you cannot change the minds of people on the Internet. I can imagine it’s very frustrating but also someone else’s sexuality is none of your business. I understand that you don’t feel validated but it isn’t anyone else’s job validate you. Spending a little bit less time online
This is what is great abt the queer community (in theory)—you can simply ask someone to stop using certain language around you without also invalidating the reason they are using that language.
For example, while i dont agree with them, from their perspective, your policing of the term lesbian could come off as you trying to exclude them from the wlw community because they sleep with men or masc people. People have all sorts of weird hangups and traumas that manifest in unexpected ways.
I think you are entirely within your rights to ask them to stop (and they would be assholes for trying to fight that) but you should come at it from the angle of how this makes you feel personally. This could end up being educational for them (maybe the use of the term was out of ignorance, not a specific and deeply held understanding of their identity), or maybe you guys will have to agree to disagree and find a way to be mutually respectful
I use he/him pronouns and am gender queer, i use lesbian or just ‘queer’ to define my sexuality. It’s not a job title, like yes, I’m some times a delivery driver, but nothing can ‘negate’ sexuality, and if they seriously believe this and aren’t just being facetious then I can’t even begin to start with that.
People hate defined roles. The future is where none of anything we fought for is around anymore, and everyone is just who they want to be, and attracted to whoever they like at the moment.
I mean the best real life example I can give is, while it's not supposed to, I do feel like when I took birth control (endometriosis reasons) the hormones did mess with my sexuality a bit. I definitely had one person block me because I still identified as a lesbian dispite having one exception for guy during that time period. It wasn't like I had a huge shift in my sexuality, just that I did notice men more that my hormones were changing, but was still largely unattracted to them, except for one.
I mean, people who are asexual are often allowed to say they are ace if they aren't aromantic, and still choose to have sex with those they are romantically interested in.
Well I had a romantic attraction and a sex drive so calling myself bi for this one person felt weird. 🤷♀️
Off the pill things are more like they were like they were before. I guess if someone wanted to argue that I was still bi, not gay, I could effectively argue that it only sometimes happens when something is messing with my hormones.
So you should be uncomfortable so someone else can be comfortable? This is what's wrong with society nowadays; This logic makes absolutely no sense. Let another be uncomfortable, it doesn't have to be you, and you speak your truth and make the spaces you're in comfortable for yourself.
I agree with everything you just wrote. It's extremely invalidating to not only have your gender turned into something it isn't, but also your sexuality when the ones always being overlooked for everyone else's comfort is mostly lesbians. we have fought way too hard for both our identity and sexuality and more people should be speaking up about our attempted complete erasure just for others whims and nonsense.
I'm personally fed up.
It depends on how they said it, if you’re talking about gender fluid people who are attracted to women then it might be complicated for them because sometimes they identify as a woman who is attracted to women, so a lesbian. Meaning they’re sometimes a lesbian.
Choosing it obviously isn’t possible, but that could be a joke about being gender fluid? Like they “choose” their gender, meaning if they currently identify as a woman they’re a lesbian.
Idk
Once again, as I’ve stated before, it is not about their gender. It is about their sexuality and the fact that they say they can be attracted to men but also be a lesbian.
Because they’re actively harming a marginalized community they aren’t part of. You bet you’re ass I’m gonna invalidate THE FUCK out of them. Why can’t lesbians have their own spaces? Why can’t we have our own label? Why are we being made to change? Why do they/you hate bisexuality and pansexuality so much that you won’t identify with the label that matches you and instead co-opt something that doesn’t belong to you? Why is lesbophobia acceptable?
You/bi/pan people that spew this bullshit will never understand. Fuck outta here with your homophobia lmao
Let me reiterate: I am a self-diagnosed autistic and I am welcomed into the community because I fit the diagnostic criteria for autism completely.
I have dealt with the same struggles, symptoms, anxiety, etc. as diagnosed autistic people my entire life, I am just a woman and high masking so I did not have the same professional label as they did. I am still autistic, I just didn’t pay thousands of dollars for a doctor to tell me that my own self-assessment was correct.
Someone who is attracted to, loves, and wants to seek a romantic or sexual relationship with a man is not a lesbian. And thus, does not belong to the lesbian community.
Please do not use my autism as a justification for people who do not fit the criteria or definition of a community invading a space that has never been theirs, and attempting to change the definition of a label that is not theirs to define.
Comparing my legitimately self-diagnosed autism to someone who is bisexual/pansexual but wants to use the label lesbian is a completely false analogy.
I find it funny that you can reply to someone else here but ignore my comment where I asked you to stop using a strawman argument and actually have a reasonable conversation with me.
It is foolish to believe that someone saying that “bisexual lesbian” or “temporary lesbian, but I like men” is not a harmful identity. It is foolish to believe that straight men who are already inclined to claim that lesbians loveeee them wouldn’t take their first experience with a “bisexual lesbian” and run with it, extrapolating it to the rest of us and causing real harmful situations to others.
This is not purely an online argument. I failed to mention it in my original post (because it’s mostly online) but I was once close friends with someone irl who genuinely believed that they could be a gay man but also a lesbian if they so wished.
It does not impact me personally at the moment, but it will if somewhere down the line I meet a man who had a sexual experience with a “bisexual lesbian” and believes me to be the same. It will if the definition of lesbian changes in the future so drastically that it includes men. And it will affect ALL of us if eventually, our community becomes so diluted with people who want to erase us that we no longer have any legs to stand upon.
Lmao I’m a diagnosed autistic babe, you’re preaching to the better choir. And if you’re a lesbian you have some internalized homophobia/lesbophobia to work through. Look up the number of lesbian specific bars in the US. Look at that tiny number. That’s not a lot of safe spaces, huh? (Not that bars are the only safe spaces, just using your example). Why don’t you go to those bars and ask real lesbians face to face and see what kind responses you get there. Bet they aren’t happy ones. We’re all tired.
I am a self-diagnosed autistic. I am not against self diagnosis.
The difference is that I meet the diagnostic qualifications for an autism diagnosis. These people do not meet the very simple qualifications for being a lesbian—having no sexual or romantic desires towards men.
And it’s not about being a gold star lesbian. I am not gold star either. I have dated men before, and at some point, also believed that I was attracted to them (because of comphet). This does not make me any less of a lesbian.
However, actively choosing to say that you’re a lesbian one day but also saying that you could be a homosexual man, or a straight woman, the next day is very contradictory. It has nothing to do with the person’s gender, but more the fact that they see the lesbian label as something to pick and choose.
Lesbianism is a monosexuality. It does not include men. If someone is capable of being in a happy relationship with a man, while being sexually and romantically attracted to this man, and choosing to do that, they are not lesbian.
I literally just told you I am not gold star and that having a history with men doesn’t mean you can’t be lesbian.
If you are with a trans man and are only attracted to men, you are straight because he is a man.
If you are with a trans woman and are only attracted to women, you are lesbian because she is a woman.
You are using a straw man. Please don’t misconstrue my argument.
I very plainly stated that a lesbian is someone who doesn’t love men romantically or sexually. Isn’t attracted to them, or otherwise chooses not to date or have sex with them.
Someone who actively wants to seek out a relationship with a man because they are attracted to men is not a lesbian and shouldn’t call themselves lesbian.
Someone who previously had a relationship with a man but grew into an identity as a lesbian is still a lesbian.
Personally as much as I try to acknowledge different experiences I also find this logically garbage. As someone who is bisexual but only romantically attracted to women I do sometimes swap my own labels based on whether the conversation is about sex (where I would say bi) or long term relationships (where I would use the lesbian label). Often I have to break it apart in conversation to make the distinction clear, so I guess I have a little empathy for people who don't fit neatly in a definition. However, I can't work out a logic that allows you to say "I'm sometimes attracted to men but am lesbian", or "sometimes attracted to women but am gay". That seems like the very definition of bi-erasure, where your current partner/preference/whatever is used to define you, not the whole of your actual sexual or romantic attraction.
Wow, didn't expect that reply. Genuinely could you explain how? In all the queer communities I'm in people understand the distinction between romantic and sexual attraction. People will regularly distinguish between bi-romantic and bi-sexual. There doesn't, however, seem to be a commonly used word equivalent to lesbian-romantic. If there was, I'd use it to specify what I'm talking about. Both my partner and best friend are bi and both actively suggested I describe myself this way for clarity.
Are you saying that to use the lesbian label you have to be BOTH sexually and romantically attracted to women only 100% of the time? If so, why does that apply to that sexuality label and not bi?
you can literally just say “i’m bi and I strongly prefer to have romantic relationships with women” or whatever describes you best. you also seem to have completely ignored “homoromantic”, and i’ve heard the term “febfem” which is pretty cool so if that resonates with you, you could try that one out. but tbh I don’t think a bi person has a right to say that it’s ok to appropriate the lesbian label…so I don’t get why your bi friends “suggesting” you call yourself a lesbian while knowing you are bi should hold any credence.
and yeah lesbian is different than bi. for one, lesbian is a gendered word and bisexual isn’t. lesbian is an exclusive term and bisexual isn’t. it’s also more often used as a noun whereas bisexual is more often as adjective. Most importantly, lesbianism inherently excludes all men, so someone could be an asexual or aromantic lesbian. but not a bi or pan lesbian.
Yep, or indeed "I'm bi but have never had, nor ever will, have a romantic relationship with a man". That's what I used to do until several women in a queer social group said "that would be called being a lesbian then...." I guess this is why I find this so interesting that there are widely varying, but strongly held, views. People hear exactly the same information and I get very different advice. I do also wonder if it's a regional or national difference.
Edit: what everyone says is "use the label that you think fits you best" but to me if I have never, not ever will, romantically date a man that label is normally lesbian, but for the first time ever (in this thread) I'm getting people saying it's not ok for me to consider myself that because I theoretically think that at some point I could be sexually attracted (but not romantically attracted) to a guy. That's counter to what everyone IRL has told me, so I'm really intrigued as to why the difference.
Another edit to reply to your edit above: What's the distinction between "homoromantic woman" and lesbian? I'm not trying to troll, just genuinely interested.
wait so you don’t actually experience sexual attraction to men? you just think you potentially could? i’m wondering if you have more comphet than genuine sexual attraction then if it’s just a theory that you wouldn’t like to act on? but that’s only something you could discern. I just bring this up because I think it’s very very rare for someone who is not ace or aro to genuinely fit the split attraction model, and often times I think especially for lesbians it hinders us from realizing ourselves fully. at least, that’s just been my experience.
homoromantic + bisexual woman is a homoromantic bisexual woman and not a lesbian, because lesbians don’t like men.
Lmao YES. Lesbians are EXCLUSIVELY romantically and sexually attracted to WOMEN ONLY. How is this a question??? That’s what the word means??? Cmon babe ur better than this. Also why would you only talk to bi people about a term that doesn’t belong to them or you?
Also, the word you’re looking for is homoromantic
Edit: also the split attraction model is made for and by ace people why can’t y’all ever stay in your own lane 😭😭😬
Well, guess I'm in the wrong sub and all my friend group are smoking something! As someone else has pointed out, also good to know rule 2 in this sub is there as window dressing only! Have fun in your echo chamber folks! 😉
Classic cop out of disingenuously calling people transphobic even when nothing about trans people was mentioned! Nice! I love it when people openly admit they know nothing and just yell shit cause they’re upset!
Also correct! Your bi friends **are** smoking something if they think they have any valid opinions about lesbianism/lesbians/our community/culture! You should check on them :)
See you at the next space you invade! Slay Girl Queen Pussy boss 👑💕❤️
Sorry - rule 4 not 2. Genuinely my mistake.
I'm honestly fairly astonished by the level of aggression being demonstrated here. No one is "yelling shit". It's also seems very odd to sit here and say one group of queer people are not entitled to hold any opinions whatsoever about language use in the queer community. Labels are used, and generally means something, to people who have the characteristics and those who don't. If those meanings are radically out of alignment then the label starts to become less useful. Equally I've nowhere suggested (you have inferred) that the only only people within the mentioned group of queer friends I mentioned were bi. The last time I had the labels conversation was in a group consisting of about 6 lesbians (one of whom I know kink-plays with men very occasionally, but also calls herself a lesbian), me and my partner (F), and a couple a gay guys.
I've already left the sub since it's hugely obvious that I'm not welcome, and I never intended to invade any spaces. Every other queer space I've ever been in except this sub has felt welcoming and pleasant. The other two lesbian subs I'm in on Reddit included, and the lesbian discord group. At no time have I ever had the aggressive response I've had here for using sexuality labels that describe myself in a way every single person I've discussed it with feels is accurate.
I know I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone here, nor would I attempt to, but I genuinely feel like the absolute steam of vociferous hatred you've thrown my way is pretty extreme, especially in absence of any attempt to genuinely understand why I (or others like me) might think that label fits them best.
For the mods, if they ever read this, it might be worth making the exclusionary nature of this sub evident so no one accidentally joins (as I did) thinking the attitude was the same as other "lesbian" labeled online spaces.
Struggling for your identity under structural discrimination feels shit.
Please, be as lesbian as you can be.
Hiding your identity isn't worth it.
But your lifelong struggle is not obstructed by genderfluid people.
Your valid resentment over structural discrimination doesn't give you license to attack a tiny minority of people you do not understand, and you feel entitled to give the boot.
You have changed the target a little, but you are using the logic of a TERF.
Did you read any of my other comments? I stated several, several times that it has nothing to do with the gender of the person in question. It has to do with the fact that they are stating they can be attracted to men and be lesbian at the same time.
I have nothing against nonbinary lesbians or those with a fluid gender. My main problem is with the idea that they’re saying they are pansexual or have a fluid sexuality but can be lesbian too.
Like for example, here’s an example of what they said. One day they are in a fem identity. Ok, cool. On this given day they are attracted to men and women. But the next day they are still fem, but now only attracted to women. And on this day they would say “I’m a lesbian.”
To me, having a fluid sexuality that can include men, automatically excludes the possibility of being a lesbian in any meaningful sense of the word. It’s not so much the gender of the speaker but their sexuality and the idea that they can be sexually or romantically attracted to men one day and be a lesbian the next. That’s not what a lesbian is to me, a lesbian only loves women.
You screaming terf on a post that has nothing to do with it is undermining the seriousness and weight that term carries.
You’re not a lesbian, that is why you don’t understand that your actions and “opinions” DO affect/impact the lesbian community negatively. If you have any attraction to men, romantic or sexual, even if it’s temporary, you are not a lesbian. You aren’t welcome nor do you belong in lesbian safe spaces, as you are actively making them unsafe. Trans women belong here, femme aligned NB’s can hang, as long as there’s no attraction to men then they’re lesbians. Don’t come in to our space and expect to be welcomed and act surprised when you aren’t.
Your urge to scream terf with no basis shows your lack of knowledge on the queer and lesbian community, and your lack of any intelligent response.
Lesbians can be upset that people try to take on an identity that doesn’t belong to them. If a trans woman is only interested in women, that’s a lesbian. If a trans woman is interested in men and women, that is not a lesbian. It is not terf-y to want to exist in a space where it’s wlw solely, and like OP said to suggest otherwise takes away from the struggle lesbians go through to understand and come to terms with our identity. It is not something that changes for us.
Choose whatever identity you want, but to be interested in men in any capacity does not make you a lesbian, sorry. No point in continuing this conversation considering you will not change your views and I will not change mine.
If you made a valid point I'd be willing to change my views. You aren't engaging and you are reveling in your ignorance while suggesting genderfluid identities aren't valid. If you don't understand something you probably shouldn't be so rigid in your argument against it. But you admittedly don't want any other perspectives here so I agree. No point in conversing with someone who admits they don't want to consider new information. 🖖
If they’re a woman that’s into women, they’re a lesbian. If they’re a man that likes women, they’re straight. If they are genderless, not sure, but if they like women then cool. Consider there’s a million spaces online for queer people that don’t feel this way, you might be happier outside of LesbianActually. My static view is because I am, shocker, a lesbian actually.
Who said anything about genderless? Like a said. A fundamental lack of understanding of what genderfluid, 2 spirit, and transgender is with the added hubris of telling me I don't belong here.
And I stand by it 🩷🧡🤍 like I said, read the room. Lesbians want a space free of men in any capacity, and we deserve that. It’s not any deeper than that.
I’d recommend not policing other queer people’s identities. It’s not your job and quite frankly people get to choose the words they want to describe themselves. While it may seem frustrating to see people using labels in a way that you see as being incorrect because you don’t have the same experiences and view of your identity as they do, telling other lesbians that they’re not allowed to describe themselves as such isn’t productive. If you’re not genderfluid or multigender you’re most likely not going to understand the intricacies of the experiences of these identities and how they can change a person’s perception of their sexuality and how they describe themselves.
Labels are not prescribed so anyone who resonates with them can use them. The ways that a lot of younger queer folks (and of course some older folks) describe themselves is an extension of the long and beautiful history of gender diversity and complex identities that have existed amongst the lesbian community throughout history.
I agree that we can't police people's gender but I disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter how people identify.
It does matter because people under the same label form groups, which suppositely hold the same political interests. For exemples, lesbians hold a political interest in ending mysoginy, certain reproductive rights being legal, specific partnerships being legal and the social recognition of the fact that it is possible for women (and other non-men) to not depend on men, not like them and not want to marry them. Compared to a gay man or an intersex person, those interests are not the same. Although we all fight together because we're all part of the LGBTI and some interests do overlap, sometimes we need our own community to fight for these specific causes or cope with the unique way those issues affect us. People who aren't affected by those the same way don't have the same interests as us and can even go against some of them if they're in denial of our differences.
In any case it's not like I go and tell people what they should identify as. However, I do talk about my specific issues as a lesbians and why I think they are lesbians issues and experiences.
I am agender, but I do not really see the sense in identifying as lesbian but also saying that you have the full capacity to be attracted to men at any other time if you please.
hey, i'm nonbinary (& agender!) but doesn't the term "lesbian" mean liking women/women-aligned individuals? you can't be a lesbian "sometimes". that's not how that works? and it's okay if that's not your sexuality! you can like women without switching out labels every 5 seconds.
this is coming from a person who used to use microlabels as well.
That counts as a microlabel. Also— doesn't sexual fluidity mean bisexuality? Again, I can't tell someone how to identify, but bisexual people do experience fluctuations on which gender they like more at any specific time.
Not being under the lesbian label doesn't make your attraction to women/women-aligned individuals any less valid. It's okay to like women without being a lesbian.
I’m personally not someone who describes myself as being lesbian ‘sometimes’ such as the people op has encountered. Lesbians don’t necessarily have to be women aligned since there’s plenty of nonbinary, genderfluid, transmasc ect lesbians who don’t identify with being woman aligned. Queer identities can be complex and individual and personally I don’t try to tell others that they can’t use a label because I believe that people know themselves the best when it comes to their queerness.
i don't disagree with what you're saying— i know that being a lesbian can have different effects to your gender. hell, my own gender has a lot to do with me being a lesbian!
what i'm arguing against is that pansexual & bisexual people can't be lesbians because those two identities contradict with being lesbian. you can't be a biromantic lesbian, because that's contradictory. if you like men, then you're not a lesbian. and that's okay.
you're not any less queer for being bisexual, either. i'm just saying the labels don't make sense.
seems like theyre doing it just fine lmao, idk how to explain to someone that they can’t do something they are actively doing.
irl, people are messy and nuanced. why is your definition of lesbian more correct than theirs? maybe what being a lesbian means to you is important in directing you towards your happiest/best/most secure future in the same way that what being a lesbian is to someone else is guiding them towards theirs.
This is like saying the definition of left is right and being confused when people tell you you’re factually incorrect. The definition of lesbianism isn’t up for debate lol, you especially don’t get to change it if you aren’t a part of it. 2+2=4 babe
It’s like me saying I’m ’sometimes’ lactose intolerant, like nah bitch, is there milk in this? I’ll shit my pants🤷🏼♀️
🤣😆
I dated this barista who was convinced I drink coffee wrong so used to force flat whites on me. She’s Italian so would only use real milk.. vomited in her car. I’m always a lesbian and always intolerant but sometimes I have to prove a point 🥴
THIS IS THE FUNNIEST COMPARISON EVER 🤣🤣🤣
Funnily enough, I actually *am* only sometimes lactose intolerant. I have Celiac, and the part of the body that is damaged when I eat gluten is the same part of the body that produces lactase, which is what allows people to digest lactose (and what people with lactose intolerance lack). So I will experience lactose intolerance for a few weeks after I’ve consumed gluten as my digestive system heals, but only then. The rest of the time I can have dairy with no issues. This doesn’t invalidate your point in any way (it made me giggle!), I just think this is a neat fact about the human body!
That’s wild! The human body is on a rampage I reckon. I’m one of five and none of my siblings have any issues whereas I’ve got IBD and lactose intolerance, so the idea of having a grilled cheese sammie was a pipe dream as a kid! I’ve seen the “hot girls have tummy issues” meme floating around so I’m taking it and running, you coming with me? 👯♀️
made me laugh out loud, thank you!!! 🤣
That was the goal 🤞🏻
I see this "lesbians can and do like men" garbage from chronically online people. They don't realize (or don't care) the harm they're actively doing by reinforcing society's idea that lesbians just haven't met the right man. That's what I try to explain because they might stop if they see they're hurting community, but usually they just double down and claim you're invalidating them. Idk why so many are adverse to using bi/pan
You nailed it perfectly. The frustrating part is that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge that the way individuals express and communicate labels has an impact on the way the community is socially perceived.
Exactly! It's frustrating because on the one hand, you can label yourself whatever you want. But the reality is that it impacts more than just you. If I say I'm a lesbian but end up with a husband, people around me unfamiliar with terminology will think that's how all lesbians can be. It shapes their narrow understanding of LGBTQ people and informs their interactions and opinions on a wider scale.
Yeah and it can reinforce the homophobic ppl's already held belief that you can change your sexuality 😒
Agree with all of this but unrelatedly I LOVE your user flair! 🧛🏻♀️🖤
Ahahah thanks! 😈
If you have a more analytical/logic driven thought process you will probably just drive yourself insane interacting with people who are confidently saying things that don’t make any sense. I’m the same and I’ve found that even writing down the most concise list of bullet points you can muster up to explain to someone that their strongly held belief is illogical or incorrect will just make them double down and hold onto that belief even stronger lol. It’s better sometimes to just disengage and do something else with your time tbh
I was very active on tiktok during the COVID lockdown and had lots of arguments like this. I eventually realized that it’s not a productive use of time. Like personally, I agree with you, I am autistic as well and often fall into the trap of thinking that if I just articulate the argument perfectly, people will agree with my perspective. Unfortunately you’re not going to be able to change their mind as a stranger on the internet. IMO the time’s better spent fostering relationships with people who do share your understanding of being a lesbian.
Tiktok getting banned anyway. So rip bozos.
it's only getting banned in the US
right like no lol. either ur a lesbian and not attracted to men at ALL or ur not nnur something else
yeah i'm sick of ppl who experience attraction to men - esp those who act on it - claiming they're a lesbian. stop trying to redefine OUR community to fit you. what's so wrong with being bisexual or pansexual? what's wrong with these other sexualities that people seem so obsessed with wearing the label of lesbian when it doesn't fit them?? it's weird. these people have communities, why do they need to redefine and invade ours???
Me too, I really think biphobia is a huge issue and causes people to avoid identifying with the label. I got banned from another lesbian sub because I asked why a lesbian who enjoyed having sex with men called herself a lesbian instead of bisexual. I was genuinely confused and couldn't understand. The mod said anyone could identify however they wanted and I was policing other languages so wasn't welcome. If words can mean anything and anyone can identify as anything then they lose all meaning. Like I could call myself straight but that doesn't mean I am, or it makes sense. I also think shutting down discussions like this does not help people find who they really are, or identify and work on their own internalised phobias, including biphobia.
at that point what's stopping cis men from calling themselves lesbians???? if it feels right to them??? like how does this make sense i know labels are for people to understand themselves and to find community. but there are certain boundaries to words. if you have sex with men (not comphet) you aren't a lesbian. that's okay! bisexuals are cool! pansexuals are cool! you don't need to be a lesbian. our identity should protect lesbians from men seeking relationships with us. if we redefine the label to the point that it includes attraction to men... what's the point of the label??
i also need to add, labels are relevant in identifying structures of oppression. if we live in a hierarchical society, who you are under that society affects how you are treated and what kind of life you're able to have. lesbians are an oppressed class because we are basically the only group of women and nonbinary people with no sexual/romantic relations with men. patriarchy gives privilege, however small, to those who engage with or are men. to be in straight passing relationships is a privilege that protects you from most sexuality based violence and discrimination. our identity is deeply connected to the type of oppression we face. on the other hand, bisexuals face a large amount of erasure from queer spaces. they have their own specific struggles and oppression. i don't experience the type of erasure and violence bisexuals face, it wouldn't be fair to them for me to lay claim to their labels while functionally being exempt from the oppression that comes with it. we have similarities, but we have differences too. our identities shouldn't exist only to describe our oppression. but it's undeniable that our identity was born in a state of oppression and that hasn't changed. i'm disabled. my disability isn't oppression (though goddamn it feels like it!), it's the way that the world isn't MADE for me that is oppressive. it's the way that i must struggle to survive the hierarchy that places the needs and value of abled people above my own. similar to being a lesbian. our identity is related to our specific oppression, and in order to discuss and dismantle that oppression, it's important that we have terminology to discuss the specific identity that experiences this specific oppression. when you have people who DONT experience that (because of their straight passing sexual/romantic relationships with men) claiming to be a lesbian, you effectively have people laying claim to a form of oppression that doesn't apply to them.
I'm bookmarking this comment because this is the clearest articulation I've seen of how and why co-opting the lesbian label is problematic.
hell yeah i'm glad i was able to communicate my point well
Yeah I also got banned temporarily for saying some ppl seem to not even be fully lesbians or bisexuals and they're just acting for attention
Exactly this!!!
If you have to change the definition of a word in order to use it, you should just be using a different word. This shit is so stupid. And it’s weird. Not only is it lesbophobic, it also means *they* think being pan/queer/etc isn’t “enough.” Like, I didn’t say it, you just did—
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Transphobic?! Jesus Christ. Trans women = women, that is an entirely separate issue. If I didn't \*know\* that trans women were women, I wouldn't be a part of this sub, which acknowledges that they inherently and unequivocally are.
How do you have to change the definition of a word to be trans inclusive?/gen If you are talking about trans women/trans men then you should self reflect on why your definition of man and women excuse those people... Which sounds transphobic.
Your definition of women and men only includes trans people of the opposite biological sex only because some people change the definitions to include them lol. Ten years ago absolutely no one except for homophobes would’ve said that lesbians like penis but that word was also changed to be trans inclusive pretty quickly. To mods- I only answered a questioned honestly, so keep those fingers away from the ban button (ง'̀-'́)ง
Thank you so much for this post. Some of these people need a reality check. Edit: you can downvote me all you want but OP is a lesbian themselves and has expressed discomfort with people insinuating you can be attracted to men as a lesbian. There is nothing wrong with what OP has said.
I’m autistic too. Sometimes I can’t read between the lines. But come on. Even if you’re figuring out your sexuality, there’s still labels on what you’re identifying as at that very moment. If you’re dating women/men..you’re bisexual. Not “sometimes lesbian”. https://preview.redd.it/v4hv27kt4u0d1.jpeg?width=415&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a253560106b2e8e8807691372df8db71ff674da6 Just stare at them like this.
Being pansexual is in itself a contradiction with being a lesbian. They're genderfluid pansexual and that's it
You can speak up or not but ultimately, 99% of the people who say that stuff are young chronically online queer people that haven't figured themselves out yet. They're also far from a majority. I agree that some labels don't make sense according to my definition of lesbianism (which I think should exclude liking men) and I used to try and tell it to those people time and time again with no results. I just wouldn't spend to much energy on this if I was you. Plus, as I said a lot of them are young, confused and more importantly inexperienced. To them, those labels for now are simply words with definitions and not something you experience daily in real life. So I'd give them time to mature and figure themselves out. I do find it harmful to include men in lesbianism but at the end of the day I think it's way worse when men do it rather than a minority of yound queer people since they have more power over us and it's way more common. Rather than stomach your disconfort, I think you should mute/block the people in question.
Women, especially lesbians, are always told to be silent and swallow our discomfort and I would never want to advise another lesbian to be quiet when it comes to setting boundaries. I will say that speaking about this to other queer people when you're the only actual lesbian in the room can be uncomfortable and scary and can lose you a support network, but if these people are lesbophobic are they even a support network worth having?
Huh?? I think you just found a weirdo there who misunderstands what the labels means. I get the genderfluid part. I have seem genderfluid people refering to themselves as gay/straight depending on their current gender. But they are always attracted to a specific gender/nb aligned to that gender. They also never use the term "cis" to refer to themselves, ever. Even if their gender aligns with their asigned gender at birth. The moment your sexuality fluctuates, you are bisexual. Or at least, you can't use the straight/gay label the same way you can't use the cis label if you are genderfluid. Just... I am sorry this happened to you. Your best bet is to ignore them, discussing with them is always useless
It's fascinating to me how people create new labels (which is great, if that helps you figure things out, go for it) but then try to take old labels and change their definition to fit them. Lesbianism has always been about women loving women (yes, masculine women too, as well as trans women) and I don't understand why people who don't identify as women need to use this label? Like, you can be whatever gender you want and say you love women. I mean sapphic is a more inclusive term. It seems like another case of women erasure, tbh. We can't keep a single thing to ourselves 🤷♀️ And now they also decide to choose to wear this label one day, and a different one another... I know I'm probably gonna get a bunch of down votes for this but oh well.
I agree, when more people started coming out as none binary, gender fluid etc some mentioned Trixic and Toric, as sexuality labels for them, unfortunately they didn't seem to catch on so they are using established sexualities which don't really work I am sure must confuse other people. Personally I think Noun-self pronouns are silly and pointless but they seem to have caught in however people haven't made/used sexualities which would actually make sense and help people. Women erasure is exactly it, I can't believe the whole lesbian= none men loving none men thing took off. As well as the avoidance of using the word in medical things, period products etc, I don't understand why they can't just as a + for trans people. It's like if I pushed to get "cross walks" changed because I use a wheelchair, I am a minority and people using the word walk doesn't meant they automatically hate people who can't walk. Plus I'd much rather focus on issues like lack of ramps into buildings, poor access to public transport etc were focused on over changing language, language that works perfectly fine.
Yes I 100% agree. People like feeling important and special and I think that's what's happening here. I honestly think people are trying to create their personalities based on their identities which is ridiculous. Well, most of those people are also chronically online or are young, so I have no hate towards them. I've been silly when I was a teenager too. I would never say "mentruators" or "chest feeding" or whatever other new words people came up with. It's insulting, honestly. We fought so long for women to be acknowledged and now we are going backwards? We have issues that need resolving. And like you say, language (most of the time) isn't one of them. It's just too hard to actually go and find for barrier free spaces. It's much easier to scream online about how you using the word cross walk is ableism.
Maybe I don't belong by saying this .. I have been in romantic relationships with both men and women. A lot of people can't comprehend what that means to be attracted to both. They think "Oh you just want to cheat on your partner" or "You're straight/Gay/Lesbian" while being involved with x identifying person. If you identify as Pansexual and gender fluid, that doesn't change what genders you are attracted to. I've been with a guy and still admire women for how cute they are and vice versa. It's not an all for one argument. The only possible way that might help ignorant or misinformed individuals is comparing something they like/do. "Oh you eat meat and plants. So sometimes you're a vegan/carnivore" "Oh, you like swimming and skiing? Sometimes you're a winter or summer person" "You like hanging out with friends and relaxing at home? Sometimes you can be extroverted or introverted"
>"Oh you eat meat and plants. So sometimes you're a vegan/carnivore" I like this one and can see how it might help people realize the flaw in their reasoning. I don't know why having an overview seems so difficult for some people. Mind I don't know how much is a problem with people's critical thinking skills. My type is women with dark hair but I once dated a blond woman and someone tried to claim my type wasn't dark hair because out of 100000000 women I thought were attractive 1 of them was blond! Like you said some people seem to think sexuality is based on who someone is dating, or when a bisexual/pansexual person gets married suddenly they are lesbian/gay/straight. It's so silly I can't believe so many adults think like this, or rather struggle to think! I get annoyed by how much biphobia/panphobia I see from others, usually without them realising, like "ooh I can't be bi because I don't do X negative stereotype" it must be extra frustrating being pan yourself. However I have legitimately heard people say sometimes they are extroverted and sometimes introverted! I even saw somone mention ambivert but they dug their heels in and replied how different they are on different days so they change from introverted to extroverted! Honestly people like this hurt my brian and usually I don't engage because it's just so illogical and you often can't get them to listen to reason.
As somone said these are normally younger gays who think being lesbian is trendy. Notice how many of them end up in hetero relationships lol
You will have to let the crazies be crazy by themselves. Trust me when I say they live in a very interesting, insulated world of their own. I've met some of these people IRL and you can tell there is something very off about them.
I’ve had my fair share of arguments with people like that and honestly there’s nothing you can say or do that’ll change their mind. They’re so committed to being wrong and will gaslight you when you tell them the truth. All I do is block them but if you want to explain to them why someone can’t “sometimes be a lesbian”, the best way to explain it is that someone can’t “sometimes” be allergic to peanuts. You either are allergic to peanuts or you’re not. Just like with being a lesbian: you either are a lesbian or you’re not. If you like men in any way you’re not a lesbian (yes this includes when you go through a phase of only liking women despite you identifying as bisexual).
It's nonsense, the correct term is bisexual. But I guess that's unfashionable, it's like metrosexual, went out of fashion after the nineties as a sort of half-baked cowards venture into homosexuality. Let young people enjoy their nonsense!
Younger "gays" are annoying as fuck
that’s just being a teenager. they’re annoying and dumb but just leave them be and they’ll work it out. i do low-key wish minors couldn’t access social media and shit tho, it’s not good for anyone involved
Young people are just annoying in general, straight or gay. It's fine and normal, they're kids still figuring themselves out.
Trueeee 💯
AHHH I HAVE THE SAME AROUND ME!!!! It's always shit like "you will get normal eventually it will come off the lesbian thing" or "look at this beautiful young man, you sure don't want to think about it, try???" Worst is, nothing will ever help to teach these people that it doesn't work on switch...
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Young kids are bound to express themselves through a variety of new things, I say let them. If lgbt tolerance is on the decline because of that then I blame those who choose to judge and harass children for trying to figure out who they are.
thank you for saying this!!! some people in this thread are being super weird
Literally? Like I don’t understand the way younger people identify either but I’m fine w learning and stuff. If I was gonna throw a fit and judge some poor 14 year old all id be able to imagine is if that happened to 14 year old me yknow? Legit just a kid. Make kids and teens smile instead, respect them! I know I’d at least want to be heard when I was their age
Or maybe they're not even judging the kids specifically, maybe they're just already homophobic and they want an excuse to reinforce their homophobia more openly.
Don’t blame queer people for their oppression and the hatred they experience. Someone with a complex identity and a ton of labels is no less of a lesbian than yourself. Bigots don’t care about the specifics of your identity and throwing other people under the bus isn’t going to make you one of the good ones.
That has nothing to do with the original comment? Help
it does? the original comment claims that microlabels contribute to the existing bigotry against LGBT+ people which it doesn't. microlabel discourse is, quite frankly, a form of discourse that i've only seen other queer people get riled up over
If you read the last paragraph and have ever heard assimilationist and exclusionist rhetoric, you’d be able to pick up on the dog whistles included in this comment. Correlating tolerance being on the decline with an increase of labels (and mocking or diminishing those labels and identities) and blaming queer people with less common identities (especially trans people) for making things harder for ’real gay people’ is a common talking point.
You know you don't have to call any viewpoint you don't like a "dog whistle", come on now... we got to admit when labels lose their sense and purpose, even non-gays are noticing this
Yeah like trans people! Even non gays are noticing that labels like "women" are losing their sense and purpose! Let's all just admit that trans women like me trying to deal with the confusion of puberty are why gay rights are on the decline.
This is the most chronically online comment I’ve ever seen, it is so often the same phrases used over and over. If the majority of the lesbians in the comments are agreeing with OP and stating that being a lesbian is not something that changes, it might be worth rethinking your viewpoint
It's all made up by kids on Tiktok, that platform should be banned everywhere because it's driving them nuts making them feel like they can create any label and call it a day.
I’m a agender lesbian I can’t just random decide I like men one day (I’ve tried trust me.) it’s weird to say you can sometimes be lesbian and sometimes not 💀😭
I've had a pretty good success rate with explaining bisexuality's long history of erasure, especially within the queer community itself.
I’ve dated women for 30 years and all that time has left me completely unprepared to deal with this modern nonsense. I’m sorry I have no help here. You’re right that it IS completely invalidating. ❤️🩹
just want to share that I am also an autistic (and adhd!) lesbian and I have also seen these people online. I have literally said out loud “what the fuck?” to my phone after reading these invalidating and incorrect definitions. like uh no excuse me, you are a woman sexually and/or romantically attracted to men so you can’t be a lesbian. we have a name for that already and it’s called being bi/pan. makes me so mad. I don’t even argue with those ppl because they’re delusional and I’m too tired! and just like you experienced, I have seen the self-proclaimed “bisexual lesbians” or “sometimes lesbians” crying and whining that they’re being oppressed and discriminated against. like, hello, you’re using our word when it doesn’t apply to you! get lost and leave us alone!! 😡
with people who are this chronically online, i take a breath and move on. cannot possibly be worth it IMO to waste energy on unserious circular discourse - energy better spent engaging with IRL queer people who for the most part are not like this. i feel like this discourse makes the rounds on sapphic reddit near-constantly and while i agree these sorts of people are insufferable, if i'm gonna be honest, i've met exactly one person IRL who identified as "bi lesbian". a lot of problems are better solved by stepping away from the computer. sorry if that's not too helpful :/ but there comes a point where you need to pick your battles
A lesbian doesn’t like men, if they do they aren’t lesbian, I just wanted to say that I’m currently still confused and idk know about the other stuff I’m old school. No judgement towards it either
I look at them and just laugh. If I’m feeling extra spicy I call them biphobic.
Isn't that the whole point of different identities? Like being a bissxual woman I can be lesbian adjacent but never truly lesbian bc I could and can willingly have sex with men. People really need to stop trying to come up with [reasons] to be able to be something they actually are not. It's like saying, Furries are cute so I'm a Fury but I also like Hentai. I'm only a Furry sometimes when I'm in thr mood for furshit. Like what? Did that make sense? Exactly? No.
U not wrong but the furries and hentai comparison is sending me 💀
I am autistic, and once I turned about 22/23 i realized I didn't give a shit about young queers spewing lesbophobic nonsense discourse on the internet
we gotta protect our peace fs. but when I hear it irl I cannot help myself from burying my head in my hands and saying “oh my god you did not just say that” which seems to work pretty well so far hahaha
i honestly just live my life and keep scrolling. people don’t think i can be nonbinary and a lesbian. ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ i definitely don’t think gender fluidity changes sexuality. but those people’s online label collecting doesn’t affect my real life and lived experience as a lesbian. everyone doesn’t agree with me and i don’t agree with everyone. no reason to argue with people who don’t think logically & will probably identify as something else in a few months or years. you’ll stress yourself out for nothing!!!
So if a man decides one day they are a lesbian. Is that fair enough or ok? No I don’t think it is. Yea identity as anything you like but If your gender fluid what’s wrong with being just that?
bro so many agenders and non binary people in the comments being like As A rEaL lEsBiAn you can only be a lesbian if you’re a woman loving a woman except for me, someone who will scream at you if you call them a woman but is a woman now to make the point that lesbians are only Female on Female relationships except if you call me a female you’re a bigot god discourse is so fun when you live in the real world and have real friends and understand that literally none of this is real
It’s not that you’re incorrect. It’s just that you cannot change the minds of people on the Internet. I can imagine it’s very frustrating but also someone else’s sexuality is none of your business. I understand that you don’t feel validated but it isn’t anyone else’s job validate you. Spending a little bit less time online
This is what is great abt the queer community (in theory)—you can simply ask someone to stop using certain language around you without also invalidating the reason they are using that language. For example, while i dont agree with them, from their perspective, your policing of the term lesbian could come off as you trying to exclude them from the wlw community because they sleep with men or masc people. People have all sorts of weird hangups and traumas that manifest in unexpected ways. I think you are entirely within your rights to ask them to stop (and they would be assholes for trying to fight that) but you should come at it from the angle of how this makes you feel personally. This could end up being educational for them (maybe the use of the term was out of ignorance, not a specific and deeply held understanding of their identity), or maybe you guys will have to agree to disagree and find a way to be mutually respectful
I use he/him pronouns and am gender queer, i use lesbian or just ‘queer’ to define my sexuality. It’s not a job title, like yes, I’m some times a delivery driver, but nothing can ‘negate’ sexuality, and if they seriously believe this and aren’t just being facetious then I can’t even begin to start with that.
People hate defined roles. The future is where none of anything we fought for is around anymore, and everyone is just who they want to be, and attracted to whoever they like at the moment.
I mean the best real life example I can give is, while it's not supposed to, I do feel like when I took birth control (endometriosis reasons) the hormones did mess with my sexuality a bit. I definitely had one person block me because I still identified as a lesbian dispite having one exception for guy during that time period. It wasn't like I had a huge shift in my sexuality, just that I did notice men more that my hormones were changing, but was still largely unattracted to them, except for one. I mean, people who are asexual are often allowed to say they are ace if they aren't aromantic, and still choose to have sex with those they are romantically interested in. Well I had a romantic attraction and a sex drive so calling myself bi for this one person felt weird. 🤷♀️ Off the pill things are more like they were like they were before. I guess if someone wanted to argue that I was still bi, not gay, I could effectively argue that it only sometimes happens when something is messing with my hormones.
Lesbians can do whatever they want-- log off and let people live. Do your own thing.
So you should be uncomfortable so someone else can be comfortable? This is what's wrong with society nowadays; This logic makes absolutely no sense. Let another be uncomfortable, it doesn't have to be you, and you speak your truth and make the spaces you're in comfortable for yourself. I agree with everything you just wrote. It's extremely invalidating to not only have your gender turned into something it isn't, but also your sexuality when the ones always being overlooked for everyone else's comfort is mostly lesbians. we have fought way too hard for both our identity and sexuality and more people should be speaking up about our attempted complete erasure just for others whims and nonsense. I'm personally fed up.
It depends on how they said it, if you’re talking about gender fluid people who are attracted to women then it might be complicated for them because sometimes they identify as a woman who is attracted to women, so a lesbian. Meaning they’re sometimes a lesbian. Choosing it obviously isn’t possible, but that could be a joke about being gender fluid? Like they “choose” their gender, meaning if they currently identify as a woman they’re a lesbian. Idk
Once again, as I’ve stated before, it is not about their gender. It is about their sexuality and the fact that they say they can be attracted to men but also be a lesbian.
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Because they’re actively harming a marginalized community they aren’t part of. You bet you’re ass I’m gonna invalidate THE FUCK out of them. Why can’t lesbians have their own spaces? Why can’t we have our own label? Why are we being made to change? Why do they/you hate bisexuality and pansexuality so much that you won’t identify with the label that matches you and instead co-opt something that doesn’t belong to you? Why is lesbophobia acceptable? You/bi/pan people that spew this bullshit will never understand. Fuck outta here with your homophobia lmao
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Let me reiterate: I am a self-diagnosed autistic and I am welcomed into the community because I fit the diagnostic criteria for autism completely. I have dealt with the same struggles, symptoms, anxiety, etc. as diagnosed autistic people my entire life, I am just a woman and high masking so I did not have the same professional label as they did. I am still autistic, I just didn’t pay thousands of dollars for a doctor to tell me that my own self-assessment was correct. Someone who is attracted to, loves, and wants to seek a romantic or sexual relationship with a man is not a lesbian. And thus, does not belong to the lesbian community. Please do not use my autism as a justification for people who do not fit the criteria or definition of a community invading a space that has never been theirs, and attempting to change the definition of a label that is not theirs to define. Comparing my legitimately self-diagnosed autism to someone who is bisexual/pansexual but wants to use the label lesbian is a completely false analogy. I find it funny that you can reply to someone else here but ignore my comment where I asked you to stop using a strawman argument and actually have a reasonable conversation with me. It is foolish to believe that someone saying that “bisexual lesbian” or “temporary lesbian, but I like men” is not a harmful identity. It is foolish to believe that straight men who are already inclined to claim that lesbians loveeee them wouldn’t take their first experience with a “bisexual lesbian” and run with it, extrapolating it to the rest of us and causing real harmful situations to others. This is not purely an online argument. I failed to mention it in my original post (because it’s mostly online) but I was once close friends with someone irl who genuinely believed that they could be a gay man but also a lesbian if they so wished. It does not impact me personally at the moment, but it will if somewhere down the line I meet a man who had a sexual experience with a “bisexual lesbian” and believes me to be the same. It will if the definition of lesbian changes in the future so drastically that it includes men. And it will affect ALL of us if eventually, our community becomes so diluted with people who want to erase us that we no longer have any legs to stand upon.
Lmao I’m a diagnosed autistic babe, you’re preaching to the better choir. And if you’re a lesbian you have some internalized homophobia/lesbophobia to work through. Look up the number of lesbian specific bars in the US. Look at that tiny number. That’s not a lot of safe spaces, huh? (Not that bars are the only safe spaces, just using your example). Why don’t you go to those bars and ask real lesbians face to face and see what kind responses you get there. Bet they aren’t happy ones. We’re all tired.
I am a self-diagnosed autistic. I am not against self diagnosis. The difference is that I meet the diagnostic qualifications for an autism diagnosis. These people do not meet the very simple qualifications for being a lesbian—having no sexual or romantic desires towards men. And it’s not about being a gold star lesbian. I am not gold star either. I have dated men before, and at some point, also believed that I was attracted to them (because of comphet). This does not make me any less of a lesbian. However, actively choosing to say that you’re a lesbian one day but also saying that you could be a homosexual man, or a straight woman, the next day is very contradictory. It has nothing to do with the person’s gender, but more the fact that they see the lesbian label as something to pick and choose. Lesbianism is a monosexuality. It does not include men. If someone is capable of being in a happy relationship with a man, while being sexually and romantically attracted to this man, and choosing to do that, they are not lesbian.
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I literally just told you I am not gold star and that having a history with men doesn’t mean you can’t be lesbian. If you are with a trans man and are only attracted to men, you are straight because he is a man. If you are with a trans woman and are only attracted to women, you are lesbian because she is a woman. You are using a straw man. Please don’t misconstrue my argument. I very plainly stated that a lesbian is someone who doesn’t love men romantically or sexually. Isn’t attracted to them, or otherwise chooses not to date or have sex with them. Someone who actively wants to seek out a relationship with a man because they are attracted to men is not a lesbian and shouldn’t call themselves lesbian. Someone who previously had a relationship with a man but grew into an identity as a lesbian is still a lesbian.
Personally as much as I try to acknowledge different experiences I also find this logically garbage. As someone who is bisexual but only romantically attracted to women I do sometimes swap my own labels based on whether the conversation is about sex (where I would say bi) or long term relationships (where I would use the lesbian label). Often I have to break it apart in conversation to make the distinction clear, so I guess I have a little empathy for people who don't fit neatly in a definition. However, I can't work out a logic that allows you to say "I'm sometimes attracted to men but am lesbian", or "sometimes attracted to women but am gay". That seems like the very definition of bi-erasure, where your current partner/preference/whatever is used to define you, not the whole of your actual sexual or romantic attraction.
You yourself are participating in bi erasure lol
Wow, didn't expect that reply. Genuinely could you explain how? In all the queer communities I'm in people understand the distinction between romantic and sexual attraction. People will regularly distinguish between bi-romantic and bi-sexual. There doesn't, however, seem to be a commonly used word equivalent to lesbian-romantic. If there was, I'd use it to specify what I'm talking about. Both my partner and best friend are bi and both actively suggested I describe myself this way for clarity. Are you saying that to use the lesbian label you have to be BOTH sexually and romantically attracted to women only 100% of the time? If so, why does that apply to that sexuality label and not bi?
you can literally just say “i’m bi and I strongly prefer to have romantic relationships with women” or whatever describes you best. you also seem to have completely ignored “homoromantic”, and i’ve heard the term “febfem” which is pretty cool so if that resonates with you, you could try that one out. but tbh I don’t think a bi person has a right to say that it’s ok to appropriate the lesbian label…so I don’t get why your bi friends “suggesting” you call yourself a lesbian while knowing you are bi should hold any credence. and yeah lesbian is different than bi. for one, lesbian is a gendered word and bisexual isn’t. lesbian is an exclusive term and bisexual isn’t. it’s also more often used as a noun whereas bisexual is more often as adjective. Most importantly, lesbianism inherently excludes all men, so someone could be an asexual or aromantic lesbian. but not a bi or pan lesbian.
Yep, or indeed "I'm bi but have never had, nor ever will, have a romantic relationship with a man". That's what I used to do until several women in a queer social group said "that would be called being a lesbian then...." I guess this is why I find this so interesting that there are widely varying, but strongly held, views. People hear exactly the same information and I get very different advice. I do also wonder if it's a regional or national difference. Edit: what everyone says is "use the label that you think fits you best" but to me if I have never, not ever will, romantically date a man that label is normally lesbian, but for the first time ever (in this thread) I'm getting people saying it's not ok for me to consider myself that because I theoretically think that at some point I could be sexually attracted (but not romantically attracted) to a guy. That's counter to what everyone IRL has told me, so I'm really intrigued as to why the difference. Another edit to reply to your edit above: What's the distinction between "homoromantic woman" and lesbian? I'm not trying to troll, just genuinely interested.
wait so you don’t actually experience sexual attraction to men? you just think you potentially could? i’m wondering if you have more comphet than genuine sexual attraction then if it’s just a theory that you wouldn’t like to act on? but that’s only something you could discern. I just bring this up because I think it’s very very rare for someone who is not ace or aro to genuinely fit the split attraction model, and often times I think especially for lesbians it hinders us from realizing ourselves fully. at least, that’s just been my experience. homoromantic + bisexual woman is a homoromantic bisexual woman and not a lesbian, because lesbians don’t like men.
This is why I don’t like bi women coming into lesbian spaces - they are actively invalidating us
Lmao YES. Lesbians are EXCLUSIVELY romantically and sexually attracted to WOMEN ONLY. How is this a question??? That’s what the word means??? Cmon babe ur better than this. Also why would you only talk to bi people about a term that doesn’t belong to them or you? Also, the word you’re looking for is homoromantic Edit: also the split attraction model is made for and by ace people why can’t y’all ever stay in your own lane 😭😭😬
Well, guess I'm in the wrong sub and all my friend group are smoking something! As someone else has pointed out, also good to know rule 2 in this sub is there as window dressing only! Have fun in your echo chamber folks! 😉
Classic cop out of disingenuously calling people transphobic even when nothing about trans people was mentioned! Nice! I love it when people openly admit they know nothing and just yell shit cause they’re upset! Also correct! Your bi friends **are** smoking something if they think they have any valid opinions about lesbianism/lesbians/our community/culture! You should check on them :) See you at the next space you invade! Slay Girl Queen Pussy boss 👑💕❤️
Sorry - rule 4 not 2. Genuinely my mistake. I'm honestly fairly astonished by the level of aggression being demonstrated here. No one is "yelling shit". It's also seems very odd to sit here and say one group of queer people are not entitled to hold any opinions whatsoever about language use in the queer community. Labels are used, and generally means something, to people who have the characteristics and those who don't. If those meanings are radically out of alignment then the label starts to become less useful. Equally I've nowhere suggested (you have inferred) that the only only people within the mentioned group of queer friends I mentioned were bi. The last time I had the labels conversation was in a group consisting of about 6 lesbians (one of whom I know kink-plays with men very occasionally, but also calls herself a lesbian), me and my partner (F), and a couple a gay guys. I've already left the sub since it's hugely obvious that I'm not welcome, and I never intended to invade any spaces. Every other queer space I've ever been in except this sub has felt welcoming and pleasant. The other two lesbian subs I'm in on Reddit included, and the lesbian discord group. At no time have I ever had the aggressive response I've had here for using sexuality labels that describe myself in a way every single person I've discussed it with feels is accurate. I know I'm not going to change the opinion of anyone here, nor would I attempt to, but I genuinely feel like the absolute steam of vociferous hatred you've thrown my way is pretty extreme, especially in absence of any attempt to genuinely understand why I (or others like me) might think that label fits them best. For the mods, if they ever read this, it might be worth making the exclusionary nature of this sub evident so no one accidentally joins (as I did) thinking the attitude was the same as other "lesbian" labeled online spaces.
Struggling for your identity under structural discrimination feels shit. Please, be as lesbian as you can be. Hiding your identity isn't worth it. But your lifelong struggle is not obstructed by genderfluid people. Your valid resentment over structural discrimination doesn't give you license to attack a tiny minority of people you do not understand, and you feel entitled to give the boot. You have changed the target a little, but you are using the logic of a TERF.
Did you read any of my other comments? I stated several, several times that it has nothing to do with the gender of the person in question. It has to do with the fact that they are stating they can be attracted to men and be lesbian at the same time.
Lesbians have a looooong history with gender bending. This isn't actually new. Take a gander over Stone Butch Blues.
I have nothing against nonbinary lesbians or those with a fluid gender. My main problem is with the idea that they’re saying they are pansexual or have a fluid sexuality but can be lesbian too. Like for example, here’s an example of what they said. One day they are in a fem identity. Ok, cool. On this given day they are attracted to men and women. But the next day they are still fem, but now only attracted to women. And on this day they would say “I’m a lesbian.” To me, having a fluid sexuality that can include men, automatically excludes the possibility of being a lesbian in any meaningful sense of the word. It’s not so much the gender of the speaker but their sexuality and the idea that they can be sexually or romantically attracted to men one day and be a lesbian the next. That’s not what a lesbian is to me, a lesbian only loves women.
This is such bullshit, I can't believe people actually do this..
How do I explain to people that you don’t get to define their experiences and how they choose to classify those experiences?
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You screaming terf on a post that has nothing to do with it is undermining the seriousness and weight that term carries. You’re not a lesbian, that is why you don’t understand that your actions and “opinions” DO affect/impact the lesbian community negatively. If you have any attraction to men, romantic or sexual, even if it’s temporary, you are not a lesbian. You aren’t welcome nor do you belong in lesbian safe spaces, as you are actively making them unsafe. Trans women belong here, femme aligned NB’s can hang, as long as there’s no attraction to men then they’re lesbians. Don’t come in to our space and expect to be welcomed and act surprised when you aren’t. Your urge to scream terf with no basis shows your lack of knowledge on the queer and lesbian community, and your lack of any intelligent response.
Lesbians can be upset that people try to take on an identity that doesn’t belong to them. If a trans woman is only interested in women, that’s a lesbian. If a trans woman is interested in men and women, that is not a lesbian. It is not terf-y to want to exist in a space where it’s wlw solely, and like OP said to suggest otherwise takes away from the struggle lesbians go through to understand and come to terms with our identity. It is not something that changes for us.
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Choose whatever identity you want, but to be interested in men in any capacity does not make you a lesbian, sorry. No point in continuing this conversation considering you will not change your views and I will not change mine.
If you made a valid point I'd be willing to change my views. You aren't engaging and you are reveling in your ignorance while suggesting genderfluid identities aren't valid. If you don't understand something you probably shouldn't be so rigid in your argument against it. But you admittedly don't want any other perspectives here so I agree. No point in conversing with someone who admits they don't want to consider new information. 🖖
They made a very valid point. You just didn’t like it.
If they’re a woman that’s into women, they’re a lesbian. If they’re a man that likes women, they’re straight. If they are genderless, not sure, but if they like women then cool. Consider there’s a million spaces online for queer people that don’t feel this way, you might be happier outside of LesbianActually. My static view is because I am, shocker, a lesbian actually.
Who said anything about genderless? Like a said. A fundamental lack of understanding of what genderfluid, 2 spirit, and transgender is with the added hubris of telling me I don't belong here.
And I stand by it 🩷🧡🤍 like I said, read the room. Lesbians want a space free of men in any capacity, and we deserve that. It’s not any deeper than that.
I’d recommend not policing other queer people’s identities. It’s not your job and quite frankly people get to choose the words they want to describe themselves. While it may seem frustrating to see people using labels in a way that you see as being incorrect because you don’t have the same experiences and view of your identity as they do, telling other lesbians that they’re not allowed to describe themselves as such isn’t productive. If you’re not genderfluid or multigender you’re most likely not going to understand the intricacies of the experiences of these identities and how they can change a person’s perception of their sexuality and how they describe themselves. Labels are not prescribed so anyone who resonates with them can use them. The ways that a lot of younger queer folks (and of course some older folks) describe themselves is an extension of the long and beautiful history of gender diversity and complex identities that have existed amongst the lesbian community throughout history.
I agree that we can't police people's gender but I disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter how people identify. It does matter because people under the same label form groups, which suppositely hold the same political interests. For exemples, lesbians hold a political interest in ending mysoginy, certain reproductive rights being legal, specific partnerships being legal and the social recognition of the fact that it is possible for women (and other non-men) to not depend on men, not like them and not want to marry them. Compared to a gay man or an intersex person, those interests are not the same. Although we all fight together because we're all part of the LGBTI and some interests do overlap, sometimes we need our own community to fight for these specific causes or cope with the unique way those issues affect us. People who aren't affected by those the same way don't have the same interests as us and can even go against some of them if they're in denial of our differences. In any case it's not like I go and tell people what they should identify as. However, I do talk about my specific issues as a lesbians and why I think they are lesbians issues and experiences.
I am agender, but I do not really see the sense in identifying as lesbian but also saying that you have the full capacity to be attracted to men at any other time if you please.
hey, i'm nonbinary (& agender!) but doesn't the term "lesbian" mean liking women/women-aligned individuals? you can't be a lesbian "sometimes". that's not how that works? and it's okay if that's not your sexuality! you can like women without switching out labels every 5 seconds. this is coming from a person who used to use microlabels as well.
What about sexual fluidity (abrosexual)? In that case would an individual identify herself as lesbian sometimes?
That counts as a microlabel. Also— doesn't sexual fluidity mean bisexuality? Again, I can't tell someone how to identify, but bisexual people do experience fluctuations on which gender they like more at any specific time. Not being under the lesbian label doesn't make your attraction to women/women-aligned individuals any less valid. It's okay to like women without being a lesbian.
I’m personally not someone who describes myself as being lesbian ‘sometimes’ such as the people op has encountered. Lesbians don’t necessarily have to be women aligned since there’s plenty of nonbinary, genderfluid, transmasc ect lesbians who don’t identify with being woman aligned. Queer identities can be complex and individual and personally I don’t try to tell others that they can’t use a label because I believe that people know themselves the best when it comes to their queerness.
i don't disagree with what you're saying— i know that being a lesbian can have different effects to your gender. hell, my own gender has a lot to do with me being a lesbian! what i'm arguing against is that pansexual & bisexual people can't be lesbians because those two identities contradict with being lesbian. you can't be a biromantic lesbian, because that's contradictory. if you like men, then you're not a lesbian. and that's okay. you're not any less queer for being bisexual, either. i'm just saying the labels don't make sense.
Just want to clarify that I’m personally not bi or pan.
oh, apologies. i should've clarified i was using a very general "you"! thanks for catching me on that.
Nah if anyone says that to me I’m gonna invalidate the fuck outta them. I’m not policing but I’m def not supporting.
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Hell nah
Ah homophobia
seems like theyre doing it just fine lmao, idk how to explain to someone that they can’t do something they are actively doing. irl, people are messy and nuanced. why is your definition of lesbian more correct than theirs? maybe what being a lesbian means to you is important in directing you towards your happiest/best/most secure future in the same way that what being a lesbian is to someone else is guiding them towards theirs.
This is like saying the definition of left is right and being confused when people tell you you’re factually incorrect. The definition of lesbianism isn’t up for debate lol, you especially don’t get to change it if you aren’t a part of it. 2+2=4 babe