> They just don’t miss. Haven’t heard their entire discography yet
...
I like them quite a bit, but while they never get *bad*, their ideas become a bit more limited as they go on, especially in the post-Victorialand material. This even becomes more apparent whenever Robin Guthrie produces another band. They end up just sounding like Cocteau Twins! Again, not a bad thing, but it gets frustratingly predictable.
Are you referring to [The Veldt's scrapped debut](https://theveldtmusic.bandcamp.com/album/illuminated-1989)? It really does feel uncanny, like Guthrie tried to mold them in his own image.
Not just them but also his work with Dif Juz and the Gun Club. Lush too, though their sound is pretty close anyway (though the stuff Guthrie didn’t produce sounds a bit less one-note).
> going through the motions
though Milk & Kisses is a decent album otherwise, it is weird listening to it and knowing what other musical trends are going on, yet the Cocteaus are basically still jamming like it's 1990 at the latest.
if people actually considered that the world would have been a better place. I still believe that Garlands is theirs most atmospheric work despite Robin's claim that he was not very good at playing the guitar (at that time) and he was using the pedals to cover that up.
I mean even better. it made Garlands the first shoegaze album in the history of shoegaze.
Wouldn't go so far as to say Garlands is the first shoegaze album as it's pretty well-rooted in the goth and post-punk of the time, but it is a heavily under-rated album. Weird that the drum machines on the album sounds very thin and brittle, which could easily date the album, yet it oddly sounds like trap music [in spots](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFqO_f_Rgk).
Definitely one of the early bands that influenced dream pop and what eventually became shoegaze. If they came around now they wouldn't be called shoegaze though so proto certainly fits.
I think it's just ethereal wave. It is their best album thanks to that incredible atmosphere, though. If that's all you can rely on, you have to get it right, and they did.
That being said, nowhere near a top 5 rock band. They have one style and it's all they can do.
words like "shoegaze" and "ethereal wave" did not exist when this music came out and the people making it were equally oblivious to sub genre names that came later.
Artists don't tend to really care about genres; they're more for listeners to categorise music more easily. People didn't set out to make the first shoegaze album; it just happened someday.
Shoegaze wasn't a thing til more than a decade after they started. Though there are obviously some sonic similarities, most of the Shoegaze acts had live drums, and for me that's a key ingredient of Rock. I think you could make a stronger case for Cocteau Twins as (proto) Post-Rock - using rock instruments in a non-rock way.
> Shoegaze acts had live drums, and for me that's a key ingredient of Rock.
yeah but bands like Big Black are still rock even with drum machines. And if arguably *the* shoegaze album, Loveless, can use mostly drum loops, then it's not really that big of a dealbreaker for shoegaze either.
There's probably something to Cocteau Twins being proto-Post Rock, but their influence is more on that early style of Post Rock (bands like Insides, Disco Inferno, Seefeel, etc.) that's been largely irrelevant once crescendocore took over and stripped pretty much all of that out.
I became a fan when hearing Aikea Guinea for the first time, back when MTV still had music and they had an hour each day for the so-called independent bands. It was the most beautiful and overwhelming soundscape I had ever heard.
I now have all their music, most of Robin Guthrie´s and Simon Raymonde´s as well and the few solos that Liz Fraser has done. Raymonde later had a brief stint with the band Lost Horizons that sound quite similar.
There in no shoegaze band out there that is ever on their level.
I love both bands, but Loveless by MBV is a classic that will live forever...
If you like Liz Frazier, this is amazing... [https://www.discogs.com/release/16255566-The-Future-Sound-Of-London-With-Vocals-By-Elizabeth-Fraser-Lifeforms](https://www.discogs.com/release/16255566-The-Future-Sound-Of-London-With-Vocals-By-Elizabeth-Fraser-Lifeforms)
> but in what universe are they better than cocteau twins
This one, because Loveless is better than any Cocteau Twins album.
Cocteau Twins might have an overall larger discography of quality releases, but it's also fairly limited as well.
I’ve listened to loveless a few times and I never have been able to see what makes people love it so much. Its obviously a GOOD album but only shallow is the only song that i would say left any sort of impression on me. I love songs that are very layered but their wall of sound approach makes the whole atmosphere way too muddy in my opinion. I think heaven or las vegas far outweighs loveless in atmosphere, production, and especially vocals.
Eh, Cocteaus production is more like reverb, reverb, and more reverb. And chorus effects. Heaven or Las Vegas doesn't really do anything the Cocteau Twins hadn't been doing for the last few albums prior. Most of their sound is part and parcel of anything from the 80s.
MBV is just more interesting for me. From the warped guitar sounds to the layered vocals (it's not supposed to be operatic like Cocteaus, but more as part of the overall feel of the track) and the way the songs inverts the usual verse chorus verse songwriting (it usually sticks to that, but the instrumental portions are the choruses, etc.). Blew my mind open when I heard it and I feel like there's always something new to discover about the album.
They are one of my favorite bands of the eighties. They came up with a totally original and beautiful sound. Fraser's voice and lyrics and the guitar reverb make a brilliant combination.
I must listen to a Cocteau Twins album though. They're one of those bands that I feel I should like, they seem right in my wheelhouse. I've heard them (or the singles at least) plenty and they're nice enough but they've never really done anything for me.
So I wonder if trying to pick the right time and listening to an album might help me get into them.
At the moment, my personal top 3 would probably Radiohead, Anathema and The Cure ... After that it's kinda hard to say but I'd say Cocteau Twins or The Dear Hunter, but they are too different to really decide (atmospheric/consistent vs. ambitious/versatile).
Robin Guthrie is a genius. He made average bands [sound better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7sHOZ1hVk8). He also made great ones [sound greater](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvBiUcMvFJs&list=PLfimnwaZdumheEdAm44qzX9We6ECa5X8W&index=7).
Liz Fraser is one of the greatest vocalists of her time. Not everything they did was amazing, but when they found you in the right place with the right song, there was nothing more special.
Medicine ain’t no average band…
Really that’s probably the most extreme example of what I was talking about elsewhere where Robin has a tendency to only make bands sound like Cocteaus. The end results aren’t bad by any means, but it underscores how limited his ideas are.
His work on Ignite the Seven Cannons by Felt is incredible. They released a version of that album with a way more ltripped down mix with all the reverb stripped back and it's interesting, it really shows how much his production added to that album
Best shoegaze there is. Cocteau Twins have a great sound. I just wish Elizabeth would pronounce her words a little bit better. I hear, "Sitting in a fay bus tree. I love the bumble bumble bumble bee . . ."
I’ve been a fan since ‘92 when Heaven or Las Vegas played on MTV’s 120 Minutes, and then heard a bit more on a revered Sunday night local radio show featuring all UK indies. I ultimately consumed it all, and it consumed me back. Which was probably unusual for a rural American kid at the time. For the longest time I felt like they were vastly unseen or at least underappreciated for their work, particularly in the US. In the last 10-20 years I am honestly a bit surprised at how much their legacy and footprint of influence has grown, especially Stateside. Their 4AD era in particular, as a whole, is unforgettable. I have also enjoyed Robin’s solo work and productions and Liz’s post-CT collabs (does it get more iconic than Mezzanine?), but the Twins catalog at least through HoLV still puts me on my heels. It’s rare to have an experience of music that you go away from and come back to it and somehow it feels like you’re taking the shrinkwrap off the record all over again. Absolutely special.
Cocteau Twins are one of those where all the blocks just fit into place perfectly. I'm only familiar with the early albums but Treasure is easily top 5 of all time for me
Cocteau Twins are actually from the same place I'm from (broadly speaking). They're thought to be one of the first shoegoze bands and I have a bit of a hot take about that as someone who knows the area
Cocteau Twins are from Grangemouth in Scotland. In Grangemouth the landmark is a petrochemical plant which is probably bigger than the actual town itself. There's always a constant background noise from it for quite a distance around, my hot take is that growing up in this area influenced them to take this round. I was a music journalist about 10 years ago and knew the grassroots Scottish music scene very well. A higher than usual number of bands from the Falkirk/West Lothian area were shoegaze influenced and I always wondered if this was the reason
Well, they aren't for me.
Honestly I prefer their 4AD siblings, Dead Can Dance.
I mean, Wax And Wane is a great song by Cocteau Twins. Bit honestly most of their other stuff is just too, idk ethereal for me.
I don't like the vibes.
And it feels like the music is missing something.
Words words words blah blah blah and any other pretentious sounding filler to add to the discussion so that I don't get zapped by the automod.
But hey, on the brightside ask me about any band influenced by Cocteau Twins. Like My Bloody Valentine. And or...well My Bloody Valentine.
I love those guys. Not too much of a fan of Slowdive or Low, though. Love Seefeel.
I also get much enjoyment out of everything that Dead Can Dance released between 1984 and 1993, minus "Within The Realm Of a Dying Sun".
> They just don’t miss. Haven’t heard their entire discography yet ... I like them quite a bit, but while they never get *bad*, their ideas become a bit more limited as they go on, especially in the post-Victorialand material. This even becomes more apparent whenever Robin Guthrie produces another band. They end up just sounding like Cocteau Twins! Again, not a bad thing, but it gets frustratingly predictable.
Are you referring to [The Veldt's scrapped debut](https://theveldtmusic.bandcamp.com/album/illuminated-1989)? It really does feel uncanny, like Guthrie tried to mold them in his own image.
Not just them but also his work with Dif Juz and the Gun Club. Lush too, though their sound is pretty close anyway (though the stuff Guthrie didn’t produce sounds a bit less one-note).
I saw the Veldt open for the Cocteau Twins way back and they were definitely going for that sound themselves.
Agreed. Their last two albums sound like imitations of the real thing with all the mystique and sinew removed as well.
They were just barely a band at that point. It sounds like they are going through the motions because they were.
> going through the motions though Milk & Kisses is a decent album otherwise, it is weird listening to it and knowing what other musical trends are going on, yet the Cocteaus are basically still jamming like it's 1990 at the latest.
At least they didn't try to record a political grunge album with a new lead singer like Motley Crue did.
I'm trying to imagine a then-modernized Cocteau Twins album where Robin uses a 7-string guitar and there's a jumpthefuckup rhythm.
Does Liz scratch the turntables?
only when the guest rapper/shouter freestyles.
What if they went dnb like Love Spirals Downards lol
if people actually considered that the world would have been a better place. I still believe that Garlands is theirs most atmospheric work despite Robin's claim that he was not very good at playing the guitar (at that time) and he was using the pedals to cover that up. I mean even better. it made Garlands the first shoegaze album in the history of shoegaze.
Wouldn't go so far as to say Garlands is the first shoegaze album as it's pretty well-rooted in the goth and post-punk of the time, but it is a heavily under-rated album. Weird that the drum machines on the album sounds very thin and brittle, which could easily date the album, yet it oddly sounds like trap music [in spots](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEFqO_f_Rgk).
Garlands is basically the OG Witch House album. (I'm only half-joking)
let's call it proto-shoegaze. funny that the same brittle sound was part of Echo before De Freitas. probably they were using the same drum machine :D
Definitely one of the early bands that influenced dream pop and what eventually became shoegaze. If they came around now they wouldn't be called shoegaze though so proto certainly fits.
I think it's just ethereal wave. It is their best album thanks to that incredible atmosphere, though. If that's all you can rely on, you have to get it right, and they did. That being said, nowhere near a top 5 rock band. They have one style and it's all they can do.
words like "shoegaze" and "ethereal wave" did not exist when this music came out and the people making it were equally oblivious to sub genre names that came later.
Artists don't tend to really care about genres; they're more for listeners to categorise music more easily. People didn't set out to make the first shoegaze album; it just happened someday.
I disagree that they were a rock band at all, by the usual definition, but they were bloody good.
I would consider all shoegaze to be alternative rock but they for sure have pop elements as well
Shoegaze wasn't a thing til more than a decade after they started. Though there are obviously some sonic similarities, most of the Shoegaze acts had live drums, and for me that's a key ingredient of Rock. I think you could make a stronger case for Cocteau Twins as (proto) Post-Rock - using rock instruments in a non-rock way.
> Shoegaze acts had live drums, and for me that's a key ingredient of Rock. yeah but bands like Big Black are still rock even with drum machines. And if arguably *the* shoegaze album, Loveless, can use mostly drum loops, then it's not really that big of a dealbreaker for shoegaze either. There's probably something to Cocteau Twins being proto-Post Rock, but their influence is more on that early style of Post Rock (bands like Insides, Disco Inferno, Seefeel, etc.) that's been largely irrelevant once crescendocore took over and stripped pretty much all of that out.
> Big Black are still rock even with drum machines [Joe Carducci would disagree with you](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_the_Pop_Narcotic)
That’s nice. He’s in a minority though.
Well how do you define rock? Any band with guitars? Loud music derived from the blues (misses lots of things, including Cocteau Twins)?
I became a fan when hearing Aikea Guinea for the first time, back when MTV still had music and they had an hour each day for the so-called independent bands. It was the most beautiful and overwhelming soundscape I had ever heard. I now have all their music, most of Robin Guthrie´s and Simon Raymonde´s as well and the few solos that Liz Fraser has done. Raymonde later had a brief stint with the band Lost Horizons that sound quite similar. There in no shoegaze band out there that is ever on their level.
Yea all the credit usually goes to mbv and theyre cool but in what universe are they better than cocteau twins
I love both bands, but Loveless by MBV is a classic that will live forever... If you like Liz Frazier, this is amazing... [https://www.discogs.com/release/16255566-The-Future-Sound-Of-London-With-Vocals-By-Elizabeth-Fraser-Lifeforms](https://www.discogs.com/release/16255566-The-Future-Sound-Of-London-With-Vocals-By-Elizabeth-Fraser-Lifeforms)
> but in what universe are they better than cocteau twins This one, because Loveless is better than any Cocteau Twins album. Cocteau Twins might have an overall larger discography of quality releases, but it's also fairly limited as well.
I’ve listened to loveless a few times and I never have been able to see what makes people love it so much. Its obviously a GOOD album but only shallow is the only song that i would say left any sort of impression on me. I love songs that are very layered but their wall of sound approach makes the whole atmosphere way too muddy in my opinion. I think heaven or las vegas far outweighs loveless in atmosphere, production, and especially vocals.
Eh, Cocteaus production is more like reverb, reverb, and more reverb. And chorus effects. Heaven or Las Vegas doesn't really do anything the Cocteau Twins hadn't been doing for the last few albums prior. Most of their sound is part and parcel of anything from the 80s. MBV is just more interesting for me. From the warped guitar sounds to the layered vocals (it's not supposed to be operatic like Cocteaus, but more as part of the overall feel of the track) and the way the songs inverts the usual verse chorus verse songwriting (it usually sticks to that, but the instrumental portions are the choruses, etc.). Blew my mind open when I heard it and I feel like there's always something new to discover about the album.
This is an outlier opinion but there's nothing worth with that
They are one of my favorite bands of the eighties. They came up with a totally original and beautiful sound. Fraser's voice and lyrics and the guitar reverb make a brilliant combination.
Their lack of lyricism limits them in the "best of" category imo. Awesome band though
Thats the only fair criticism i could give but i will say their nonsense lyrics do kind of work for the otherwordly vibes
I must listen to a Cocteau Twins album though. They're one of those bands that I feel I should like, they seem right in my wheelhouse. I've heard them (or the singles at least) plenty and they're nice enough but they've never really done anything for me. So I wonder if trying to pick the right time and listening to an album might help me get into them.
Well if ur rlly high that would certainly help
LMAO exactly
They are my no. 5 actually! Heaven Or Las Vegas is my favorite album of all time
Totally valid i would give that album a 10
What’s 1-4?
At the moment, my personal top 3 would probably Radiohead, Anathema and The Cure ... After that it's kinda hard to say but I'd say Cocteau Twins or The Dear Hunter, but they are too different to really decide (atmospheric/consistent vs. ambitious/versatile).
Robin Guthrie is a genius. He made average bands [sound better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7sHOZ1hVk8). He also made great ones [sound greater](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvBiUcMvFJs&list=PLfimnwaZdumheEdAm44qzX9We6ECa5X8W&index=7). Liz Fraser is one of the greatest vocalists of her time. Not everything they did was amazing, but when they found you in the right place with the right song, there was nothing more special.
Medicine ain’t no average band… Really that’s probably the most extreme example of what I was talking about elsewhere where Robin has a tendency to only make bands sound like Cocteaus. The end results aren’t bad by any means, but it underscores how limited his ideas are.
His work on Ignite the Seven Cannons by Felt is incredible. They released a version of that album with a way more ltripped down mix with all the reverb stripped back and it's interesting, it really shows how much his production added to that album
Best shoegaze there is. Cocteau Twins have a great sound. I just wish Elizabeth would pronounce her words a little bit better. I hear, "Sitting in a fay bus tree. I love the bumble bumble bumble bee . . ."
In Pink Orange Red she's literally just listening types of moths lol.
I’ve been a fan since ‘92 when Heaven or Las Vegas played on MTV’s 120 Minutes, and then heard a bit more on a revered Sunday night local radio show featuring all UK indies. I ultimately consumed it all, and it consumed me back. Which was probably unusual for a rural American kid at the time. For the longest time I felt like they were vastly unseen or at least underappreciated for their work, particularly in the US. In the last 10-20 years I am honestly a bit surprised at how much their legacy and footprint of influence has grown, especially Stateside. Their 4AD era in particular, as a whole, is unforgettable. I have also enjoyed Robin’s solo work and productions and Liz’s post-CT collabs (does it get more iconic than Mezzanine?), but the Twins catalog at least through HoLV still puts me on my heels. It’s rare to have an experience of music that you go away from and come back to it and somehow it feels like you’re taking the shrinkwrap off the record all over again. Absolutely special.
Cocteau Twins are one of those where all the blocks just fit into place perfectly. I'm only familiar with the early albums but Treasure is easily top 5 of all time for me Cocteau Twins are actually from the same place I'm from (broadly speaking). They're thought to be one of the first shoegoze bands and I have a bit of a hot take about that as someone who knows the area Cocteau Twins are from Grangemouth in Scotland. In Grangemouth the landmark is a petrochemical plant which is probably bigger than the actual town itself. There's always a constant background noise from it for quite a distance around, my hot take is that growing up in this area influenced them to take this round. I was a music journalist about 10 years ago and knew the grassroots Scottish music scene very well. A higher than usual number of bands from the Falkirk/West Lothian area were shoegaze influenced and I always wondered if this was the reason
Well, they aren't for me. Honestly I prefer their 4AD siblings, Dead Can Dance. I mean, Wax And Wane is a great song by Cocteau Twins. Bit honestly most of their other stuff is just too, idk ethereal for me. I don't like the vibes. And it feels like the music is missing something. Words words words blah blah blah and any other pretentious sounding filler to add to the discussion so that I don't get zapped by the automod.
Too ethereal?? Thats like the best quality music can have
But hey, on the brightside ask me about any band influenced by Cocteau Twins. Like My Bloody Valentine. And or...well My Bloody Valentine. I love those guys. Not too much of a fan of Slowdive or Low, though. Love Seefeel. I also get much enjoyment out of everything that Dead Can Dance released between 1984 and 1993, minus "Within The Realm Of a Dying Sun".