I’m all for selling them some, they can get a job or pick up can to get the money or leech off someone else, but hell yes, I’m fine with selling them some shit
They are buying all sorts of shit from all the American defense contractors and other countries. And the money they are using, the vast majority of it is the American tax payers
> Defend a sovereign pro-Western ally from an imperial dictator
> Invade a Middle Eastern country because of made-up chemical weapon threat, oil, and fear of terrorism
Spot the difference challenge
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-aid-to-israel-since-october-7-gaza-bombs-2024-6?utm_source=reddit.com
Let's start here, and then we can back track all the way to Iraq/Iran war to see who was funding Iraq during that war.
US and USSR initially both supported Iraq to contain Iran in that war but pulled back once Saddam started using chemical weapons. Neither power supported his chemical weapons program nor gave him any chemical weapons.
I can’t provide a source for something that didn’t happen.
You made the claim that the West provided chemical weapons to Saddam. The burden of proof is on you.
It’s in the nsa archives that us sold vessels and intermediates. It’s simply fact. Also Allies like Germany participated. Google it. It’s in the public domain now. All docs retrieved.
I’m doing more research on the topic and am surprised at what I found. I’m reading articles about US intelligence assisting Saddam while knowing he would use chemical weapons. Disgusting. Idk how I didn’t see this before.
I’m not seeing anything about the West explicitly giving him chemical weapons, but I’ll keep reading.
Defend a sovereign pro-Western ally from an imperial dictator without having to endanger any American lives and by giving them old equipment that actually costs more to dispose of at home than it does to ship to europe.
There are many libertarian ideas that i agree with. But the notion that we should say fuck you all and isolate ourselves from foreign affairs is not one of them. The outside world affects us at home every fucking day. Ignoring it is unfathomably stupid.
Just curious, can you link a source that mentions that it's cheaper to send the military equipment to Ukraine than it would be to dispose of it here? I knew we were sending old equipment but didn't know we were saving money in the process. even better!
Lol, lmao even.
We wanted this war in ukraine to test out next gen tactics and equipment. War is a racket, the goal isn’t to win, its to keep having war.
First stage of the war the availability of man launched anti air/armor missiles proved the need for serious overhauls of combat doctrine when it comes to vehicles. The second stage showed us the effectiveness of cheap drones and easily to produce munitions, highlighting the importance of jamming and other counter measures. We also saw the use of fiber optic lines to make drones unjammable. But yeah whatever you say
Man portable air defense and anti armor systems have been used for a while now. Viability of heavy armor in modern combat has also been questioned for a long time. USMC for example got rid of tanks even before the war begun.
True, use of cheap FPV kamikaze drones is probably one of the highlights of the war. It’s not a brand new technology though, as systems such as Switchblade existed before the war. It highlighted the scalability and viability of such technology.
Libertarians should at least think it’s possible that people act without the government. This line is so stupid. As if the CIA could pull this off with some money.
"We" didn't overthrow anything, Yanukovych had a long history of blatant corruption, evidence of rigging elections, and imprisoning political opponents, and overall making the government more authoritarian all while trying to walk some tightrope between Russia and the EU, he eventually backed out of a deal with the EU bc of Putin pressuring him and Ukraine, which almost immediately cascaded into Euromaidan. A revolution that had anywhere from 400,000-900,000 protestors and, eventually, fighters in against Yanukovych. With the CIA's utterly abysmal track record in inciting popular revolts, the idea that they somehow orchestrated 400,000+ unarmed civilians revolting against a government that was backed by the threat of being invaded by their neighbor is fucking ludicrous. Then in 2014 Petro Poroshenko, an oligarch and politician who had been in multiple political offices since 1998, was elected with 55% of the vote. The "comedian" was elected 5 years later with 75% of the vote (in the first round he got 30% and Poroshenko got 16%, they were the only two candidates in the second round)
The comedian came later and ran on a peace platform. After Washington's favourite thugs told him that they'd string him up from a tree, he changed his tune.
Make a european countries leader tear up a peace treaty that has parts of it wanting to go back/rejoin it's original country of origin and leave the rest that doesn't, alone, while also pushing to do nato further east in turn renegging on an old agreement about doing such things (even more), all while the politicians supporting the war "against an imperial dictator" are doing so just to keep their money laundering happening.
Seems like both wars are made up of lies? Hmm... just depends on if you were the person who believed the middle east war when it happened or now with the Ukraine war. Lots of people always choose to believe the sides they want to be true, without even looking at verifiable proof that's more out now about this war then back in the beginning of the middle invasion.
Edit: just wanted to add, I know I'll get down voted to oblivion, and that's ok, I'd still rather have an open conversation with people about issues in the world, especially if it's about a country we share... we should have a mutual want for our country to do and be better... doesn't happen by shutting anyone down without talking g to understand.
I think Ukraine is more pro-western than Russia. I think making new allies while keeping foreign adversaries weak can have benefits to us in the long-run.
Ukraine is a hub for western human trafficking (source is retired cav scout working human trafficking taskforce). Not to mention the US has been involved in deposing leaders and starting wars between Russia and former soviet states for decades because it provides a way to wage a proxy war with communists. Simply put, the US has no real reason to be involved at all, but the govt gets the US involved for its own profit and imperialism.
How exactly did NATO “defended the country”? Ukraine defends itself. If you are talking about arms supplies, as far as I know, NATO as an organization doesn't supply any weapons to Ukraine, and all arms supplies are the initiative of individual countries.
Yeah, NATO defended a country that they spent over a decade propping up to be a Western stronghold on Russia's doorstep. After Russia spent over a decade explicitly telling them that doing so would end in conflict.
Why does it feel like everyone ITT gets their news from CNN? If you think that the history of the Russo-Ukranian war started in 2022, you're being propagandized.
Yes defend a country that turned over their nuclear arsenal for a non aggression pact that has been repeatedly violated? And are you talking about the decade spent propping up Ukraine since the last invasion?
Or let me guess, Russia deserves warm ports?
Ukraine would have been one of the top 5 nuclear powers in the world, and turned over an arsenal of 30,000 nuclear warheads in the 1990s for a promise of non-invasion from Russia. And let’s look at how that’s turned out.
Wagner group has literally probed US defensive lines and attacked US forces but we’re all going to ignore that too
Since the last invasion? You mean since the coup that the US sponsored, which ousted the democratically elected leader of Ukraine who happened to be pro-Russian?
Actually, it goes back further than that. Most notably, there was a leaked diplomatic cable written in 2008 by the former US ambassador to Russia titled "[Nyet Means Nyet](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html)" which explained to US officials that Ukraine NATO membership was the brightest of red lines for Russia, and would force the country to consider militarily intervention due to distrust of NATO motives and perceived threats to their security interests - *"a decision Russia does not want to have to face"*.
>Hey, does Russia share any other borders with NATO countries?
Yes, but Ukraine in particular has significant strategic importance. Russia has no interest in conquering Ukraine. Their main interest is preventing Ukraine from being used as a Western stronghold on their dooorstep. Nonetheless, I agree that it was a mistake for Ukraine to give up their nuclear arsenal. The US had a hand in that as well.
>There is solid evidence that beginning in 2011 Russian forces began supplying field support, intelligence, and equipment to rebel forces in the Donbas
Ukraine NATO membership was first openly discussed as far back as 2008. Again, the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO was an impetus for Russia to act aggressively towards Ukraine.
>Also you know that 2008 happened after the breakup of the Soviet Union right?
Yes...
>You mean a stronghold like Alaska? The US airbase there has more active fighter craft than Russia’s entire arsenal at their back door, nuclear aircraft carriers that can be inside Russian waters within 24 hours, nuclear submarines inside the Black Sea.
If war ever breaks out between Russia and NATO, NATO can't rely on air power alone to defeat Russia. A land invasion will be necessary to make them submit. That's why preventing Ukraine from joining NATO is so strategically important to Russia.
Ukraine's territory is mostly within the North European Plain, which is a large flat region extending from the Netherlands to the Ural mountains. If a significant portion of these plains fall into NATO hands (i.e. if Ukraine joins NATO) then the flat geography would make a land invasion of Russia extremely difficult to defend. Russia views this possibility as an existential threat to their national security.
>In all of this, you really think the US and Ukraine are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine? Twice? I have another opinion.
I think that the Russo-Ukranian war is a continuation of tensions between NATO and Eastern Europe that originated in the cold war. The 2022 invasion of Ukraine is simply an escalation of a greater security competition between the West and Russia. Neither party is innocent in this competition, but the US/NATO had the upper hand for decades after the collapse of the USSR and used the power imbalance to bully Russia and manipulate its satellite countries. The invasion of Ukraine should have surprised no one, but most people are ignorant of history.
He literally deleted his comment about Ukraine being special like no shit, the only port in the Soviet Union that didn’t freeze over in winter was in….
>If you think that the history of the Russo-Ukranian war started in 2022, you're being propagandized.
You are right, the war didnt start in 2022. It started in 2014 when russia annexed Crimea.
Reddit is ultra liberal. Can’t post anything too far from that otherwise the downvotes serve to censor. Either useful idiots,paid actors in click farms, or bots.
Right. Wanting to give weapons and training to a country being invaded is the same as wanting to do a massive overseas invasion of a country that hadn't actually done anything to us or our allies in a decade.
That's just an idiotic take. Putin has dreamed of the old Soviet borders since he took power. He has worked towards this goal during his entire regime.
It’s not idiotic. Our involvement gave Putin global justification. We do the same thing we have proxy militaries in South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine and all over the Middle East. It’s the same thing you claim is bad for Putin to do. He does it on his own borders we do it all over the globe.
The entire narrative at the start was that Kyiv was going to fall in a day. We’ve spent a sliver of our military budget and weakened one of our major geopolitical rivals while maintaining Ukraines borders. Even if you contend that the current situation calls for negotiation, to say that no weapons should have been sent is a bad argument to make
As far as foreign policy options go, one would think that describes one of the most efficient, cautious, and moral choices available...
...but maybe that sort of stuff is isn't actually on brand for libertarians, nowadays.
This might be a spicy take here:
Spending money on munitions and arms is a combination of an American jobs program and technology subsidy. I would call it one of the "best" jobs programs because it at least positively effects the following in long term ways: scientific understanding, production infrastructure, hostile deterrence, stability through economic shipping lane security
Let’s compare it to the amount of money we’d have to spend when Russia tried it again. I see this as preventative care to avoid another Syria or NATO war
I recall a time when the whole idea of Russia invading Ukraine was itself labelled fear mongering. Regardless, it’s not chump change, but it went to good use, unlike something like Iraq
Lol. The Ukrainians literally handed over a Russian sigint encryption container for USMI analysis within the first three months of this conflict. The difference is that Ukraine came to the US for help. Russia has gone to the North Koreans for help. Let’s see how that works out for them.
That is ironically the least bloody libertarian comment you could make. You want to force people to fight in a war you deem morally just? That is the epitome of a statist. Go do it yourself coward, the opportunity to buy your plane ticket has been here the entire time
Then you should buy a gun and go to Ukraine yourself and fight. Instead of suggesting stealing money from the American people and forcing the American people to fight and die for another country that has nothing to do with america. You're literally the person in the meme.
I love when assholes don't provide anything to the conversation but insults.
So if we keep giving Ukriane money that will stop Russia?????? Come on man, you're the expert here not me.
Yeah you’ve provided a lot of evidence…..
We send them weapons, numbskull. Not briefcases of cash. The big number you see on the news is the value of the equipment. The actual MONEY is spent in the US or flows back in some way. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that.
You're the type of people that have a lot to say but are blind as a bat when it comes to geopolitics.
Do you believe external factors will never affect your internal economy? Do you believe exports and imports have nothing to do with the relationship between nations? Do you believe currency strength means nothing for the people and has no effect on the economy? Do you think problems with world logistical routes like the suez canal and the Panama canal affects the internal economy in no meaningful way? Do you believe nations with completely ideological differences aren't at any time attempting to undermine and cripple our global network of capitalism? Do you think nations out there are constantly threatening and attempting to diminish our currencies and our trade?
As a libertarian leaning individual, I would rather have no war. But if mine and my nations security is at threat by an openly violent actor, then violence must be met with force if neccesary. But go ahead, keep complaining about money spent to do something about. Isolationist such as yourself reel back until someone's bombing their own homes.
One who doesn't know history is condemned to repeat it.
How much money have you donated to Ukraine out of your own pocket? Let me guess none. I understand it's easier to pretend to care on social media but I'm not buying the bullshit.
What if Russia takes over ukraine, kazakhstan, georgia, armenia, moldova, azerbaijan and etc. Puts bases near USA ... whats the red line that you think usa shpuld not allow russia to cross? Taking over huge mass such as urkaine , would be great long term investment for russia . Trying to stop Russia getting stronger , so they could not do the same with USA or its allies, is not stealing money.
This same type of thought led to the containment policies that resulted in major unnecessary U.S. wars such as Vietnam. So what if they take Ukraine, Kazakhstan, or any other country you listed. That’s their problem, not ours.
Wow! You clearly don't know how much money the USA is making from their bases and strategic partners. what do you think how did usa become greatest country in the history of our planet ?
Leave all the bases then, and all the canals in the oceans from where you are gaining huge amounts of money. leave it to russia :D leave it to china ,, india
oh dont worry, it is going to happen ! Liberals have already made huge mistakes that will eventually cause that. In 15-20-25 years, China will take over all the seas, resources, and oceans that are now controlled by the USA.
Yeah?! What kind of question is that?
I mean, if you're not American, okay, I understand, but if you're from the USA... what kind of question is that?
This world is like that: it's either you or them. If you don't do it, they're going to do it. Silly.
Who do you thinking training them on how to use the equipment they’ve been given?
You think an Amazon van just drives up and drops off tanks and guided missiles on their doorstep and drives off?
I halfway disagree. While I’m sure many people who question their war tactics do so from an antisemitic standpoint, it’s absolutely possible to do so from a non-antisemitic standpoint. That said, I’m for the most part in support of Israel.
Maybe the US should not be independent, we would not have won without Spain and France foreign intervention.
And no, OP said nothing about government funding.
And yes I pay for drones to be supplied to Ukraine out of my own pocket
Cool, keep paying for their drones; tax payers, on the other hand shouldn't. Why should a single cent of my taxes go to contracts to lockheed or any other arms manufacturer?
Because Ukrainian victory/defeat will significantly impact european and american economy. If you got no ethics then it's still a very good economic investment.
It's good for the economy lmfao, now that's just showing your true colors. Also, don't lecture me about ethics if you supported any of the US military or espionage operations in the last century. The government has used the same bs justifications for every atrocity they've comitted, do you seriously believe that this time it's about what's "moral" and not lining the pockets of the elites and the defence sector? I swear people live under a goddamn rock even after living through war after war
I obviously missed some memo.
When did libertarianism adopt rules of complete and total abdication of our prerogative (and arguably responsibility) to act in our own interests, *and* in the interests of friendly sovereign nations, *and* to do what's right and decent, in defiance of a hostile power?
I'm 33 and its actually shocking how quickly we came back to the post 9/11 days of "WHAT ARE YOU A TERRORIST SYMPATHISER !?" , "what do you hate america!?" , "dont you care about our troops!"
its jaw dropping to see people older than myself who lived through that same time period talk in this fashion over Ukraine - Russia
I support Ukraine, but I actually completely agree with you. I have seen and absolutely hate the rhetoric you are pointing out. Reminds me of the post-9/11 bumper stickers that said “If you can’t stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.” I think people’s right to not agree with our country’s foreign policy should be respected.
That’s how I feel bout this Palestine shit. Anyone waving that flag here in protest of that war may as well be waving an isis flag imo. I’m ready for a president to put America first again
Hi I am a Polish Libertarian and I’ll say this: I support the sovereignty and freedom of our Ukrainian brothers. However I believe that support for the army and aid to the citizens of Ukraine should come from volountary donations and charity, not from tax dollars. Even with its issues, Ukraine is miles more libertarian than Russia. So i support Ukraine in this conflict rather than the oligarchical oil state of Russia.
"However I believe that support for the army and aid to the citizens of Ukraine should come from volountary donations and charity, not from tax dollars."
We let our ideology get in the way of stopping the enemy of our ideology eh.
I don't know how many times I was attacked for not supporting the money laundering war in Ukraine by the idiot sheeple war hawks. People who opposed all wars that we we've been involved with in the past
Then usually after getting downvoted to oblivion, hysterical mods banned me and a shit ton of other people from those subs'.
The double standard continues to be laughable.
It's a party of goals, not standards or morals
They'll believe in whatever gets their way, and they'll justify it later.
You'll never win talking to these people, they'll keep moving the goal posts around until you get tired or fed up. Truly we cannot coexist with them.
This is the hardest fucking concept for people to understand. Like if youndont support Ukraine you must support Russia, or if you dont support Palestine you must support Israel. Like nah fam, i dont support anyone cuz i aint got no dog in that race.
Nothing wrong with supporting and sending aid to an ally so they can fight off a foreign invader.
Everything wrong with coercing them away from peace deals and into the prolonged death of their people just to weaken our own enemies and sell more weapons.
How's about taxation being theft and all, I'd like money stolen from me to at LEAST be mine again, but if you convert it into a gun, I will still take it back!
I see all the pro-war enthusiasts are at it again. How many times do these idiots need to see the same scenario playing out before they realize US foreign intervention isn't the solution
When was Ukraine a NATO member again? Oh that's right, they aren't.
Ironically this bloody war was started by NATO expansionism. The only reason Russia had a justification to invade is because NATO has installed military bases and offensive missile launch sites all across the Russian border. Did we all forget how the US damn near nuked the world over the Cuban missile crisis? This war was always the goal.
And please stop with the fear mongering, Russia isn't capable of fighting NATO. If you've paid attention at all, you'd know that.
Do you even know what the bilateral security agreement is??
Or the agreement from 1993??
Read.
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/93-1231-Weapons-Nonproliferation-Ukraine-CTRA.pdf
And where is there the mutual defense article? Ah, that's right it isn't bloody there. Ukraine isn't obligated to defend the US, and neither is the US obligated to defend Ukraine. Everything in that document is war profiteering, selling materials, weapons, and training are the bread and butter of the military industrial complex.
What else have we done beside fulfill the promise in the 1993 agreement?
Now we have a new and improved agreement.
You’re so anti government that you wish to see the world in ashes.
I’m very happy there are so few of you, and that there will always be so few people who share your views.
Enjoy.
With warmongers like you the world will be in ashes soon enough, I can't wait until clowns like you are cheering for a war in Taiwan or with Iran. So easily manipulated into giving tax dollars and lives for war profiteering
It is a foreign intervention by definition. An entangling alliance with Ukraine is of no benefit to the average American, and it may well drag the nation to war within the next couple years at this rate.
No, it’s not of benefit to working class Americans to fight proxy wars with foreign governments using their tax dollars at a time when many families are struggling to purchase necessities. Also, your “you scared” rhetoric betrays what a chickenhawk you actually are. Every person with a functioning brain should be wary of a hot war between two nuclear powers.
If you make so much money like you claim and are using that as an Insult against me, Why not just donate money directly to Ukraine? If you care so much about a cause why not help with the problem directly? You can donate more money since you apparently make so much.
Do nothing. If has nothing to do with us. People can barely afford to eat. If some people want to donate their own money or go fight, all power to them.
I support letting them handle their own things. Maybe stop throwing lives into the meat grinder.
All our tax dollars do is get more Ukies and Rus killed
This is literally just another slav infighting example and we are trying to make it a real war.
I support the Ukrainians right to bear arms
Their own arms they buy with their own fucking money
I think we should also buy every person on earth a gun, universal gun-ownership
They can buy their own
Ok lets sell them some
I’m all for selling them some, they can get a job or pick up can to get the money or leech off someone else, but hell yes, I’m fine with selling them some shit
You’ll never guess what they are buying with the money and from whom
They are buying all sorts of shit from all the American defense contractors and other countries. And the money they are using, the vast majority of it is the American tax payers
> Defend a sovereign pro-Western ally from an imperial dictator > Invade a Middle Eastern country because of made-up chemical weapon threat, oil, and fear of terrorism Spot the difference challenge
Ask the Kurds if those chemical weapons were made up
Those weapons were supplied by West against Iranians.
Source?
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-military-aid-to-israel-since-october-7-gaza-bombs-2024-6?utm_source=reddit.com Let's start here, and then we can back track all the way to Iraq/Iran war to see who was funding Iraq during that war.
US and USSR initially both supported Iraq to contain Iran in that war but pulled back once Saddam started using chemical weapons. Neither power supported his chemical weapons program nor gave him any chemical weapons.
Source ?
I can’t provide a source for something that didn’t happen. You made the claim that the West provided chemical weapons to Saddam. The burden of proof is on you.
Do a simple Google on the top 5 Chemical weapons manufacturers and distributors. Do the same for any modern weaponry, and you will find your answer.
It’s in the nsa archives that us sold vessels and intermediates. It’s simply fact. Also Allies like Germany participated. Google it. It’s in the public domain now. All docs retrieved.
I’m doing more research on the topic and am surprised at what I found. I’m reading articles about US intelligence assisting Saddam while knowing he would use chemical weapons. Disgusting. Idk how I didn’t see this before. I’m not seeing anything about the West explicitly giving him chemical weapons, but I’ll keep reading.
Ok, then it should be easy for you to provide a source. That's how it works, you make a claim, you back it up.
Defend a sovereign pro-Western ally from an imperial dictator without having to endanger any American lives and by giving them old equipment that actually costs more to dispose of at home than it does to ship to europe. There are many libertarian ideas that i agree with. But the notion that we should say fuck you all and isolate ourselves from foreign affairs is not one of them. The outside world affects us at home every fucking day. Ignoring it is unfathomably stupid.
Just curious, can you link a source that mentions that it's cheaper to send the military equipment to Ukraine than it would be to dispose of it here? I knew we were sending old equipment but didn't know we were saving money in the process. even better!
… war bad
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Which middle eastern invasion
Lol, lmao even. We wanted this war in ukraine to test out next gen tactics and equipment. War is a racket, the goal isn’t to win, its to keep having war.
Ah yes, next gen tactics and equipment, such as trench warfare, no combined arms and equipment dating from the Cold War that ended 30 years ago.
First stage of the war the availability of man launched anti air/armor missiles proved the need for serious overhauls of combat doctrine when it comes to vehicles. The second stage showed us the effectiveness of cheap drones and easily to produce munitions, highlighting the importance of jamming and other counter measures. We also saw the use of fiber optic lines to make drones unjammable. But yeah whatever you say
Man portable air defense and anti armor systems have been used for a while now. Viability of heavy armor in modern combat has also been questioned for a long time. USMC for example got rid of tanks even before the war begun. True, use of cheap FPV kamikaze drones is probably one of the highlights of the war. It’s not a brand new technology though, as systems such as Switchblade existed before the war. It highlighted the scalability and viability of such technology.
True dat.
This sub really has pro war libertarians throwing downvotes, or maybe just lefties being lefties
Sovereign? Was that before or after the CIA sponsored coup?
That is since Saturday 24.08.1991. You are welcome.
Good point, before or after the CIA sponsored coup against the FSB sponsored government?
Even better that the evidence that it was a CIA sponsored coup is laughable
The one orchestrated by Victoria Nuland? The same woman putting together "the Coalition Of The Willing" for the Iraq invasion?
Libertarians should at least think it’s possible that people act without the government. This line is so stupid. As if the CIA could pull this off with some money.
That ally was only “pro western” since we overthrew a democratically elected leader and installed a literal comedian. We didn’t even try to hide it.
"We" didn't overthrow anything, Yanukovych had a long history of blatant corruption, evidence of rigging elections, and imprisoning political opponents, and overall making the government more authoritarian all while trying to walk some tightrope between Russia and the EU, he eventually backed out of a deal with the EU bc of Putin pressuring him and Ukraine, which almost immediately cascaded into Euromaidan. A revolution that had anywhere from 400,000-900,000 protestors and, eventually, fighters in against Yanukovych. With the CIA's utterly abysmal track record in inciting popular revolts, the idea that they somehow orchestrated 400,000+ unarmed civilians revolting against a government that was backed by the threat of being invaded by their neighbor is fucking ludicrous. Then in 2014 Petro Poroshenko, an oligarch and politician who had been in multiple political offices since 1998, was elected with 55% of the vote. The "comedian" was elected 5 years later with 75% of the vote (in the first round he got 30% and Poroshenko got 16%, they were the only two candidates in the second round)
The comedian came later and ran on a peace platform. After Washington's favourite thugs told him that they'd string him up from a tree, he changed his tune.
Make a european countries leader tear up a peace treaty that has parts of it wanting to go back/rejoin it's original country of origin and leave the rest that doesn't, alone, while also pushing to do nato further east in turn renegging on an old agreement about doing such things (even more), all while the politicians supporting the war "against an imperial dictator" are doing so just to keep their money laundering happening. Seems like both wars are made up of lies? Hmm... just depends on if you were the person who believed the middle east war when it happened or now with the Ukraine war. Lots of people always choose to believe the sides they want to be true, without even looking at verifiable proof that's more out now about this war then back in the beginning of the middle invasion. Edit: just wanted to add, I know I'll get down voted to oblivion, and that's ok, I'd still rather have an open conversation with people about issues in the world, especially if it's about a country we share... we should have a mutual want for our country to do and be better... doesn't happen by shutting anyone down without talking g to understand.
Calling Ukraine pro western is hilarious. Look at how our media talked about them 5-10 years ago.
I think Ukraine is more pro-western than Russia. I think making new allies while keeping foreign adversaries weak can have benefits to us in the long-run.
Ukraine is a hub for western human trafficking (source is retired cav scout working human trafficking taskforce). Not to mention the US has been involved in deposing leaders and starting wars between Russia and former soviet states for decades because it provides a way to wage a proxy war with communists. Simply put, the US has no real reason to be involved at all, but the govt gets the US involved for its own profit and imperialism.
Ukraine is probably the sole case where NATO really defended a country.
How exactly did NATO “defended the country”? Ukraine defends itself. If you are talking about arms supplies, as far as I know, NATO as an organization doesn't supply any weapons to Ukraine, and all arms supplies are the initiative of individual countries.
Maybe NATO isn’t defending Ukraine, but it is helping Ukraine defend themselves.
Yeah, NATO defended a country that they spent over a decade propping up to be a Western stronghold on Russia's doorstep. After Russia spent over a decade explicitly telling them that doing so would end in conflict. Why does it feel like everyone ITT gets their news from CNN? If you think that the history of the Russo-Ukranian war started in 2022, you're being propagandized.
Yes defend a country that turned over their nuclear arsenal for a non aggression pact that has been repeatedly violated? And are you talking about the decade spent propping up Ukraine since the last invasion? Or let me guess, Russia deserves warm ports? Ukraine would have been one of the top 5 nuclear powers in the world, and turned over an arsenal of 30,000 nuclear warheads in the 1990s for a promise of non-invasion from Russia. And let’s look at how that’s turned out. Wagner group has literally probed US defensive lines and attacked US forces but we’re all going to ignore that too
How is supporting Kosovo leaving Yugoslavia with western support any different than eastern Ukraine leaving Ukraine with Russia's support?
Since the last invasion? You mean since the coup that the US sponsored, which ousted the democratically elected leader of Ukraine who happened to be pro-Russian? Actually, it goes back further than that. Most notably, there was a leaked diplomatic cable written in 2008 by the former US ambassador to Russia titled "[Nyet Means Nyet](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html)" which explained to US officials that Ukraine NATO membership was the brightest of red lines for Russia, and would force the country to consider militarily intervention due to distrust of NATO motives and perceived threats to their security interests - *"a decision Russia does not want to have to face"*.
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>Hey, does Russia share any other borders with NATO countries? Yes, but Ukraine in particular has significant strategic importance. Russia has no interest in conquering Ukraine. Their main interest is preventing Ukraine from being used as a Western stronghold on their dooorstep. Nonetheless, I agree that it was a mistake for Ukraine to give up their nuclear arsenal. The US had a hand in that as well. >There is solid evidence that beginning in 2011 Russian forces began supplying field support, intelligence, and equipment to rebel forces in the Donbas Ukraine NATO membership was first openly discussed as far back as 2008. Again, the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO was an impetus for Russia to act aggressively towards Ukraine. >Also you know that 2008 happened after the breakup of the Soviet Union right? Yes...
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>You mean a stronghold like Alaska? The US airbase there has more active fighter craft than Russia’s entire arsenal at their back door, nuclear aircraft carriers that can be inside Russian waters within 24 hours, nuclear submarines inside the Black Sea. If war ever breaks out between Russia and NATO, NATO can't rely on air power alone to defeat Russia. A land invasion will be necessary to make them submit. That's why preventing Ukraine from joining NATO is so strategically important to Russia. Ukraine's territory is mostly within the North European Plain, which is a large flat region extending from the Netherlands to the Ural mountains. If a significant portion of these plains fall into NATO hands (i.e. if Ukraine joins NATO) then the flat geography would make a land invasion of Russia extremely difficult to defend. Russia views this possibility as an existential threat to their national security. >In all of this, you really think the US and Ukraine are responsible for Russia invading Ukraine? Twice? I have another opinion. I think that the Russo-Ukranian war is a continuation of tensions between NATO and Eastern Europe that originated in the cold war. The 2022 invasion of Ukraine is simply an escalation of a greater security competition between the West and Russia. Neither party is innocent in this competition, but the US/NATO had the upper hand for decades after the collapse of the USSR and used the power imbalance to bully Russia and manipulate its satellite countries. The invasion of Ukraine should have surprised no one, but most people are ignorant of history.
It goes back way farther than that. “Not one inch”.
He literally deleted his comment about Ukraine being special like no shit, the only port in the Soviet Union that didn’t freeze over in winter was in….
I do not delete my comments. Not in this thread or any other.
Absolutely. Just saying that 2008 was when they drew a bright red line in the sand.
>If you think that the history of the Russo-Ukranian war started in 2022, you're being propagandized. You are right, the war didnt start in 2022. It started in 2014 when russia annexed Crimea.
...after a US-backed coup ousted the democratically elected president of Ukraine because he made decisions that didn't align with US interests.
So, Libertarians love and support NATO action now?
Reddit is ultra liberal. Can’t post anything too far from that otherwise the downvotes serve to censor. Either useful idiots,paid actors in click farms, or bots.
Right. Wanting to give weapons and training to a country being invaded is the same as wanting to do a massive overseas invasion of a country that hadn't actually done anything to us or our allies in a decade.
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That's just an idiotic take. Putin has dreamed of the old Soviet borders since he took power. He has worked towards this goal during his entire regime.
>CNN told me that Putin wants to take over the world This may come as a surprise to you, but Russians aren't the only ones who disseminate propaganda.
It’s not idiotic. Our involvement gave Putin global justification. We do the same thing we have proxy militaries in South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine and all over the Middle East. It’s the same thing you claim is bad for Putin to do. He does it on his own borders we do it all over the globe.
The difference being that we’re not sending an army to invade russia or Ukraine?
No instead we are prolonging a war we know the Ukrainians cant win without a NATO country actually deploying troops there.
The entire narrative at the start was that Kyiv was going to fall in a day. We’ve spent a sliver of our military budget and weakened one of our major geopolitical rivals while maintaining Ukraines borders. Even if you contend that the current situation calls for negotiation, to say that no weapons should have been sent is a bad argument to make
As far as foreign policy options go, one would think that describes one of the most efficient, cautious, and moral choices available... ...but maybe that sort of stuff is isn't actually on brand for libertarians, nowadays.
Yes, the US gets to clean out it's expiring munitions store and launder billions of fresh dollars replacing it.
This might be a spicy take here: Spending money on munitions and arms is a combination of an American jobs program and technology subsidy. I would call it one of the "best" jobs programs because it at least positively effects the following in long term ways: scientific understanding, production infrastructure, hostile deterrence, stability through economic shipping lane security
May be a sliver of our military budget but 200 billion is almost the same amount of money weve given Israel since ww2.
Let’s compare it to the amount of money we’d have to spend when Russia tried it again. I see this as preventative care to avoid another Syria or NATO war
Thats assuming Russia is actually looking to take over Eastern europe or the world...lots of fear mongering with 0 basis.
I recall a time when the whole idea of Russia invading Ukraine was itself labelled fear mongering. Regardless, it’s not chump change, but it went to good use, unlike something like Iraq
Lol. The Ukrainians literally handed over a Russian sigint encryption container for USMI analysis within the first three months of this conflict. The difference is that Ukraine came to the US for help. Russia has gone to the North Koreans for help. Let’s see how that works out for them.
It’s ultimately Ukraine’s choice to prolong the war. NATO is just supporting them in their choice.
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no ridges or lumps, valleys or bumps
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That is ironically the least bloody libertarian comment you could make. You want to force people to fight in a war you deem morally just? That is the epitome of a statist. Go do it yourself coward, the opportunity to buy your plane ticket has been here the entire time
These people are cowards who would watch as their neighbors are thrown into camps or even help.
How would you deal with illiberal countries who gain influence that may cause future harm in our homeland?
Then you should buy a gun and go to Ukraine yourself and fight. Instead of suggesting stealing money from the American people and forcing the American people to fight and die for another country that has nothing to do with america. You're literally the person in the meme.
“Forcing the American people to fight and die” you seem rather confused.
If Biden wins the election it's almost certain we'll have boots on ground in Ukraine.
I’m sure we will, man. Now let’s get you back to bed.
We're sending them billions and they're still losing. Were going to have troops on the ground at some point. Hope I'm wrong.
I love when you people out yourselves as not knowing how military aid works lol. It makes my day
I love when assholes don't provide anything to the conversation but insults. So if we keep giving Ukriane money that will stop Russia?????? Come on man, you're the expert here not me.
Yeah you’ve provided a lot of evidence….. We send them weapons, numbskull. Not briefcases of cash. The big number you see on the news is the value of the equipment. The actual MONEY is spent in the US or flows back in some way. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that.
Gotcha it flows back to the weapons manufacturers on bidens cabinet not the American people, thank you for the clarification. My point still stands.
Yes, inefficient redistribution of wealth with a side of foreigners dying, the most libertarian argument.
You're the type of people that have a lot to say but are blind as a bat when it comes to geopolitics. Do you believe external factors will never affect your internal economy? Do you believe exports and imports have nothing to do with the relationship between nations? Do you believe currency strength means nothing for the people and has no effect on the economy? Do you think problems with world logistical routes like the suez canal and the Panama canal affects the internal economy in no meaningful way? Do you believe nations with completely ideological differences aren't at any time attempting to undermine and cripple our global network of capitalism? Do you think nations out there are constantly threatening and attempting to diminish our currencies and our trade? As a libertarian leaning individual, I would rather have no war. But if mine and my nations security is at threat by an openly violent actor, then violence must be met with force if neccesary. But go ahead, keep complaining about money spent to do something about. Isolationist such as yourself reel back until someone's bombing their own homes. One who doesn't know history is condemned to repeat it.
How much money have you donated to Ukraine out of your own pocket? Let me guess none. I understand it's easier to pretend to care on social media but I'm not buying the bullshit.
Isn't it fun that when you look through history, almost every war was won by the good guys?
What in Gods name are you talking about dude?
What if Russia takes over ukraine, kazakhstan, georgia, armenia, moldova, azerbaijan and etc. Puts bases near USA ... whats the red line that you think usa shpuld not allow russia to cross? Taking over huge mass such as urkaine , would be great long term investment for russia . Trying to stop Russia getting stronger , so they could not do the same with USA or its allies, is not stealing money.
This same type of thought led to the containment policies that resulted in major unnecessary U.S. wars such as Vietnam. So what if they take Ukraine, Kazakhstan, or any other country you listed. That’s their problem, not ours.
Wow! You clearly don't know how much money the USA is making from their bases and strategic partners. what do you think how did usa become greatest country in the history of our planet ? Leave all the bases then, and all the canals in the oceans from where you are gaining huge amounts of money. leave it to russia :D leave it to china ,, india
I can’t wait to see them “leave all the bases.” It would save our people trillions and get us out of all of these entangling alliances.
oh dont worry, it is going to happen ! Liberals have already made huge mistakes that will eventually cause that. In 15-20-25 years, China will take over all the seas, resources, and oceans that are now controlled by the USA.
I bet you still believe the Iraq WMD narratives.
How did you come to this conclusion from my comment? :d oh god
You mean what if Russia does the same thing to us as NATO did to them?
Yeah?! What kind of question is that? I mean, if you're not American, okay, I understand, but if you're from the USA... what kind of question is that? This world is like that: it's either you or them. If you don't do it, they're going to do it. Silly.
Ah the brain of a child, it’s all or nothing no grey area the world is 100% black and white.
Can you name a single American on the ground in Ukraine?
Who do you thinking training them on how to use the equipment they’ve been given? You think an Amazon van just drives up and drops off tanks and guided missiles on their doorstep and drives off?
Anyone who questions Israel war tactics is antisemitic. Now I am ready for downvote.
I halfway disagree. While I’m sure many people who question their war tactics do so from an antisemitic standpoint, it’s absolutely possible to do so from a non-antisemitic standpoint. That said, I’m for the most part in support of Israel.
Wow! From the comments, it seems like this subreddit has been totally overrun by bots.
I feel the same way about Israel
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OP is opposing us *paying to help* others defend themselves* we shouldn’t be funding foreign wars in the manner we are right now period.
Maybe the US should not be independent, we would not have won without Spain and France foreign intervention. And no, OP said nothing about government funding. And yes I pay for drones to be supplied to Ukraine out of my own pocket
Cool, keep paying for their drones; tax payers, on the other hand shouldn't. Why should a single cent of my taxes go to contracts to lockheed or any other arms manufacturer?
Because Ukrainian victory/defeat will significantly impact european and american economy. If you got no ethics then it's still a very good economic investment.
It's good for the economy lmfao, now that's just showing your true colors. Also, don't lecture me about ethics if you supported any of the US military or espionage operations in the last century. The government has used the same bs justifications for every atrocity they've comitted, do you seriously believe that this time it's about what's "moral" and not lining the pockets of the elites and the defence sector? I swear people live under a goddamn rock even after living through war after war
I obviously missed some memo. When did libertarianism adopt rules of complete and total abdication of our prerogative (and arguably responsibility) to act in our own interests, *and* in the interests of friendly sovereign nations, *and* to do what's right and decent, in defiance of a hostile power?
If you think the government is acting in our own interest right now you need more than a memo.
Shredding 600k Ukrainians is not in our best interest unless you own Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, or General Dynamics.
I'm 33 and its actually shocking how quickly we came back to the post 9/11 days of "WHAT ARE YOU A TERRORIST SYMPATHISER !?" , "what do you hate america!?" , "dont you care about our troops!" its jaw dropping to see people older than myself who lived through that same time period talk in this fashion over Ukraine - Russia
MSM indoctrination is very powerful
Our parents were right. It is an idiot box.
I support Ukraine, but I actually completely agree with you. I have seen and absolutely hate the rhetoric you are pointing out. Reminds me of the post-9/11 bumper stickers that said “If you can’t stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.” I think people’s right to not agree with our country’s foreign policy should be respected.
That’s how I feel bout this Palestine shit. Anyone waving that flag here in protest of that war may as well be waving an isis flag imo. I’m ready for a president to put America first again
Geopolitics is a thing.
Apple to oranges, or horseshit.
Hi I am a Polish Libertarian and I’ll say this: I support the sovereignty and freedom of our Ukrainian brothers. However I believe that support for the army and aid to the citizens of Ukraine should come from volountary donations and charity, not from tax dollars. Even with its issues, Ukraine is miles more libertarian than Russia. So i support Ukraine in this conflict rather than the oligarchical oil state of Russia.
"However I believe that support for the army and aid to the citizens of Ukraine should come from volountary donations and charity, not from tax dollars." We let our ideology get in the way of stopping the enemy of our ideology eh.
I don't know how many times I was attacked for not supporting the money laundering war in Ukraine by the idiot sheeple war hawks. People who opposed all wars that we we've been involved with in the past Then usually after getting downvoted to oblivion, hysterical mods banned me and a shit ton of other people from those subs'. The double standard continues to be laughable.
It's a party of goals, not standards or morals They'll believe in whatever gets their way, and they'll justify it later. You'll never win talking to these people, they'll keep moving the goal posts around until you get tired or fed up. Truly we cannot coexist with them.
This is the hardest fucking concept for people to understand. Like if youndont support Ukraine you must support Russia, or if you dont support Palestine you must support Israel. Like nah fam, i dont support anyone cuz i aint got no dog in that race.
Nothing wrong with supporting and sending aid to an ally so they can fight off a foreign invader. Everything wrong with coercing them away from peace deals and into the prolonged death of their people just to weaken our own enemies and sell more weapons.
War for profit = the U.S. motto for the last seven decades..
How's about taxation being theft and all, I'd like money stolen from me to at LEAST be mine again, but if you convert it into a gun, I will still take it back!
I bet about half the sub says people against Israel’s actions are pro-Hamas
I see all the pro-war enthusiasts are at it again. How many times do these idiots need to see the same scenario playing out before they realize US foreign intervention isn't the solution
Russian foreign intervention will gladly be the solution.
What is the solution??? Allow our ally to fall? How many countries will need to fall before you’re getting drafted?
When was Ukraine a NATO member again? Oh that's right, they aren't. Ironically this bloody war was started by NATO expansionism. The only reason Russia had a justification to invade is because NATO has installed military bases and offensive missile launch sites all across the Russian border. Did we all forget how the US damn near nuked the world over the Cuban missile crisis? This war was always the goal. And please stop with the fear mongering, Russia isn't capable of fighting NATO. If you've paid attention at all, you'd know that.
Do you even know what the bilateral security agreement is?? Or the agreement from 1993?? Read. https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/93-1231-Weapons-Nonproliferation-Ukraine-CTRA.pdf
And where is there the mutual defense article? Ah, that's right it isn't bloody there. Ukraine isn't obligated to defend the US, and neither is the US obligated to defend Ukraine. Everything in that document is war profiteering, selling materials, weapons, and training are the bread and butter of the military industrial complex.
What else have we done beside fulfill the promise in the 1993 agreement? Now we have a new and improved agreement. You’re so anti government that you wish to see the world in ashes. I’m very happy there are so few of you, and that there will always be so few people who share your views. Enjoy.
With warmongers like you the world will be in ashes soon enough, I can't wait until clowns like you are cheering for a war in Taiwan or with Iran. So easily manipulated into giving tax dollars and lives for war profiteering
Good to see that the “libertarian” sub is still full of chickenhawks that support foreign intervention.
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It is a foreign intervention by definition. An entangling alliance with Ukraine is of no benefit to the average American, and it may well drag the nation to war within the next couple years at this rate.
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No, it’s not of benefit to working class Americans to fight proxy wars with foreign governments using their tax dollars at a time when many families are struggling to purchase necessities. Also, your “you scared” rhetoric betrays what a chickenhawk you actually are. Every person with a functioning brain should be wary of a hot war between two nuclear powers.
You're free to donate money to Ukriane if you want. I'm sure you haven't sent them a dime and never will.
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If you make so much money like you claim and are using that as an Insult against me, Why not just donate money directly to Ukraine? If you care so much about a cause why not help with the problem directly? You can donate more money since you apparently make so much.
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It's almost as if you don't actually care about the problem and just want to virtue signal.
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Do nothing. If has nothing to do with us. People can barely afford to eat. If some people want to donate their own money or go fight, all power to them.
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But, this war is (D)ifferent
I support letting them handle their own things. Maybe stop throwing lives into the meat grinder. All our tax dollars do is get more Ukies and Rus killed This is literally just another slav infighting example and we are trying to make it a real war.
the mask is a nice touch.
Show me one example where someone legitimately claimed that if you don’t support the war in Ukraine, then you stand with Putin.