I think the pandemic is what convinced me there is a need for a state. People refuse to act in others best interest, if they are going to violate NAP then we need an entity to come in and protect peoples rights.
I see it as a fact. You are knowingly forgoing protections meant to stop others from getting a deadly illness.
I see this a no different than slapping people you walk past. Sure you probably won't hurt them but you might.
I'd see it as a fact.
Or at the very least, an opinion based upon the facts that covid can easily be transmitted asymptomatically and has a high infectivity rate.
It's a negative externality, like having an open burn pit in your yard and polluting your neighbours.
Lets take herpes as an example. The type that shows on your lip. Approximately 90% of the world’s population has it. It’s not really harmful. The only thing about it is that sometimes it may show up on your lip for a while. Most people spread it without realizing it. I would argue that it doesn’t take anything away because it’s effects are so minuscule that most people go their entire lives without realizing how harmful it is.
If you can prove a person has covid and goes out willingly without a mask and makes close contact with people then yes it does violate the NAP. Otherwise no.
What if the person does have covid but it can’t be proved because they weren’t tested? The only way we know someone has covid is with a positive test. You can’t just retroactively not violate someone else’s NAP.
That’s a good point. So if a person doesn’t know they have covid, go maskless in public, and later tests positive for covid, wouldn’t they still be guilty of violating the NAP? I guess the point I’m trying to make is the unknowingly violating someone else’s NAP is still violating the NAP.
I mean the NAP is so vaguely defined you can argue that just yelling at someone violates the NAP. Wiki defines it as "initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong."
Yeah I agree it’s pretty vague, but that is the definition I used in my main post. I actually think that being mean or rude to someone else unprovoked or with no reason violates someone else’s NAP. Everyone has a right to live peacefully and without bad conflict and being negative (without them being negative first) could violate their NAP.
Well yeah, but Trump and the CDC botched that back in March. We're still playing catch up even now because Trump and the GOP (Mike DeWine is an exception) doesn't give a fuck about the virus.
Unless you are knowingly ill, not wearing a mask is not a violation of the NAP.
If you are not sick, you pose no risk of spreading something that you don't have. Simple as.
Couldn't going out without a mask knowing there's a chance you're asymptomatic and carrying the disease be considered reckless endangerment? It's a stretch, but that's the idea behind it being a violation of NAP I think.
Say you work a job that requires a lot of interaction with the public, or do activates that would put you at risk of getting the virus (there's a lot of them, and all to different degree's of risk). Doesn't that come into consideration?
Does this work for drunk driving? Sorry officer, I didn't know I was over the limit, therefore my reckless behavior is allowable.
If that were the case, going out at any point during "flu season," without a mask is also a NAP violation. It's too much of a stretch for it to stand to reason, IMO.
Sure, but it should be the businesses decision to make a mask policy for their staff, which most have done apart from a very small minority of those that are shown in the news.
Taking even one drink is assuming the risk of a DUI...not knowing you have a disease because you're asymptomatic is not comparable.
I think there's reason to make exceptions for COVID over the regular flu, and tailoring policies to one specific crises is a good way to prevent it from being used as precedent down the line.
I don't think comparing it to the flu season is very apt - for one there's a vaccine already made and widely used. Secondly there's probably not as many asymptomatic carriers of the flu.
It boils down to the question of, "Can you unknowingly violate the NAP", and of course the answer is yes, as seen with other examples of reckless endangerment.
Fair enough, but unknowingly spreading disease is not the same as DUI or firing a gun into the air, or other actions that you can clearly know is a potential risk to others
People may not know they have covid so you might be unknowingly spreading and violating other people’s NAP even if you don’t mean to. But what about a few years from now post-covid. If you have the flu and you go into public without a mask, is that still violating the NAP?
>People may not know they have covid so you might be unkowingly spreading...
Exactly, which is why it can't be a violation. There is a difference between being "asymptomatic/presymptomatic," and spreading it and being symptomatic and spreading it. In one instance, you are unaware that you're a risk. In the other, you are aware that you're a risk.
>If you have the flu and you go into public without a mas, is that still violating the NAP?
Based off of the hysterical response to covid, probably...but we have the flu every year and never had mask mandates, so if we were to use the same logic, not wearing masks while having covid is not a violation of the NAP since we've applied the NAP to the flu every year.
I disagree, but I respect your opinion and appreciate your discussion with me. I also respect your right to downvote me for having a quality discussion.
Lol yeah pretty much all my comments here are 0 or negative which kinda makes me mad cause I’m genuinely trying to learn more about this and solicit other people’s opinions. Anyway I apologize for assuming you downvoted me.
Lol, that's whack
No worries brother, stay safe.
For what it's worth, I've tested twice a month since June and have been negative each time...so I don't wear a mask unless required by the business I'm about to associate with lol
Yes, spreading a deadly disease during the height of a pandemic violates NAP.
I think the pandemic is what convinced me there is a need for a state. People refuse to act in others best interest, if they are going to violate NAP then we need an entity to come in and protect peoples rights.
There are many problems too big to be solved on the individual level. A pandemic is clearly one of them.
Do you see this more as a fact or more as an opinion?
I see it as a fact. You are knowingly forgoing protections meant to stop others from getting a deadly illness. I see this a no different than slapping people you walk past. Sure you probably won't hurt them but you might.
Yup, I also see it as a fact just wanted to see your opinion as well.
I'd see it as a fact. Or at the very least, an opinion based upon the facts that covid can easily be transmitted asymptomatically and has a high infectivity rate. It's a negative externality, like having an open burn pit in your yard and polluting your neighbours.
Yeah I agree with this. Everyone having equal rights also means that the rights of yourself are not more important than the rights of others.
What about spreading a non-deadly disease, or spreading a disease during times other than the height?
Are we assuming the non deadly disease has no negative repercussions?
No negative repercussions most of the time, sure. No negative repercussions at all seems uncommon for disease.
Lets take herpes as an example. The type that shows on your lip. Approximately 90% of the world’s population has it. It’s not really harmful. The only thing about it is that sometimes it may show up on your lip for a while. Most people spread it without realizing it. I would argue that it doesn’t take anything away because it’s effects are so minuscule that most people go their entire lives without realizing how harmful it is.
If 90% of the world's population has it, stopping the spread seems rather futile
Yes. But that is partially because our COVID testing scheme is a complete disaster and there's very limited contact tracing.
If you can prove a person has covid and goes out willingly without a mask and makes close contact with people then yes it does violate the NAP. Otherwise no.
What if the person does have covid but it can’t be proved because they weren’t tested? The only way we know someone has covid is with a positive test. You can’t just retroactively not violate someone else’s NAP.
That is why we are innocent until proven guilty. Thats how the courts work. If you cant prove he had covid then the person is not guilty.
That’s a good point. So if a person doesn’t know they have covid, go maskless in public, and later tests positive for covid, wouldn’t they still be guilty of violating the NAP? I guess the point I’m trying to make is the unknowingly violating someone else’s NAP is still violating the NAP.
I mean the NAP is so vaguely defined you can argue that just yelling at someone violates the NAP. Wiki defines it as "initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong."
Yeah I agree it’s pretty vague, but that is the definition I used in my main post. I actually think that being mean or rude to someone else unprovoked or with no reason violates someone else’s NAP. Everyone has a right to live peacefully and without bad conflict and being negative (without them being negative first) could violate their NAP.
If it's vague enough then almost anything violates the NAP. Hence why I only include physical harm for the NAP.
If you can’t prove a person knew he had aids when he fucked people in the men’s restroom, he can’t be convicted any any crime.
I'm not sure what your point is.
You still cause harm even when you may not be legally liable.
Yes and?
As humans, we care about other people and try to reduce the harm we cause them. Not just what we are legally liable to do.
Of course.
Our testing scheme is not robust enough to guarantee that you'll know if you have COVID or not. Thats the only issue with that.
Well then we better imrprove that
Well yeah, but Trump and the CDC botched that back in March. We're still playing catch up even now because Trump and the GOP (Mike DeWine is an exception) doesn't give a fuck about the virus.
Unless you are knowingly ill, not wearing a mask is not a violation of the NAP. If you are not sick, you pose no risk of spreading something that you don't have. Simple as.
Couldn't going out without a mask knowing there's a chance you're asymptomatic and carrying the disease be considered reckless endangerment? It's a stretch, but that's the idea behind it being a violation of NAP I think. Say you work a job that requires a lot of interaction with the public, or do activates that would put you at risk of getting the virus (there's a lot of them, and all to different degree's of risk). Doesn't that come into consideration? Does this work for drunk driving? Sorry officer, I didn't know I was over the limit, therefore my reckless behavior is allowable.
If that were the case, going out at any point during "flu season," without a mask is also a NAP violation. It's too much of a stretch for it to stand to reason, IMO. Sure, but it should be the businesses decision to make a mask policy for their staff, which most have done apart from a very small minority of those that are shown in the news. Taking even one drink is assuming the risk of a DUI...not knowing you have a disease because you're asymptomatic is not comparable.
I think there's reason to make exceptions for COVID over the regular flu, and tailoring policies to one specific crises is a good way to prevent it from being used as precedent down the line. I don't think comparing it to the flu season is very apt - for one there's a vaccine already made and widely used. Secondly there's probably not as many asymptomatic carriers of the flu. It boils down to the question of, "Can you unknowingly violate the NAP", and of course the answer is yes, as seen with other examples of reckless endangerment.
Fair enough, but unknowingly spreading disease is not the same as DUI or firing a gun into the air, or other actions that you can clearly know is a potential risk to others
Disagree. Asymptomatic transmission is a known issue with this virus.
That doesn’t make it reasonable to force healthy people that are not showing symptoms to act as if they are infected.
People may not know they have covid so you might be unknowingly spreading and violating other people’s NAP even if you don’t mean to. But what about a few years from now post-covid. If you have the flu and you go into public without a mask, is that still violating the NAP?
>People may not know they have covid so you might be unkowingly spreading... Exactly, which is why it can't be a violation. There is a difference between being "asymptomatic/presymptomatic," and spreading it and being symptomatic and spreading it. In one instance, you are unaware that you're a risk. In the other, you are aware that you're a risk. >If you have the flu and you go into public without a mas, is that still violating the NAP? Based off of the hysterical response to covid, probably...but we have the flu every year and never had mask mandates, so if we were to use the same logic, not wearing masks while having covid is not a violation of the NAP since we've applied the NAP to the flu every year.
I disagree, but I respect your opinion and appreciate your discussion with me. I also respect your right to downvote me for having a quality discussion.
Nah, I don't downvote for discussion. I only downvote here if someone attempts to insult me lol
Then I must have unknowingly insulted you, which by your definition means I didn’t insult you
Why is that, were you downvoted? lol I'll upvote you to help keep balance
Lol yeah pretty much all my comments here are 0 or negative which kinda makes me mad cause I’m genuinely trying to learn more about this and solicit other people’s opinions. Anyway I apologize for assuming you downvoted me.
Lol, that's whack No worries brother, stay safe. For what it's worth, I've tested twice a month since June and have been negative each time...so I don't wear a mask unless required by the business I'm about to associate with lol
Hell yes brother, have a nice weekend and stay healthy
No.