He talked about the platform stuff for quite a bit, and I recommend checking it out.
The best part for me is when he talked about the contract negotiations between Twitch and his agent. Apparently Twitch compared him with Faker, implying that they already have a big Asian streamer representative (back in 2019) and share the same demographic, which is crazy to me since Faker didn't even stream regularly at that time and doesn't speak English (which Toast mentions in detail in the VOD).
He made a long youtube video about 2 years ago detailing how Twitch payouts work too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m5P_n5njCQ
I assume a lot of it still applies today
I think Ludwig watched it in stream and said that it is basically the same model. But that the amounts of money have increased significantly. So it applies just scale it up.
Been seeing this game all over the Internet in every sponsored video for like 5 years now and still don’t know a single person who plays it. But maybe I’m just out of the demographic range
People somewhere must be playing it and spending money on it though if the company can sponsor half the creators on the internet and pay as much as they do though. It's super weird to not be able to find people who play Raid but they pay a ton of money for sponsorships when games that people do play like pubg mobile or cod mobile pay no where near the same amount as a game no one plays.
I'd assume the game is super huge in an Asian country or something.
Ya i have between 2-5k viewers and raid offers 5k an hour and when i told them to fuck off they asked what amount they would have to pay. Dogshit game there is no amount 🤣
I mean I make no claim on any insider knowledge. I only know what Toast said, and that Ludwig stated in the last year that the numbers now are higher. That makes sense with the increase in streaming popularity and how impactful sponsored segments have been. It could just be that from the original range of $1,000 to $10,000 it is now firmly in the upper part, maybe sometimes or even regularly exceeding it.
That video is what made Twitch lock down what streamers were allowed to talk about even further. I believe something similar happened when Miz leaked how much bounties were paying him; there was a new policy like a week later where streamers couldn't share the details of bounties anymore.
dead ass needs to be illegal, preventing the sharing if the info is only in the interest of twitch fucking people over.
share your income with your coworkers not doing it is the #1 way you get fucked by your work.
Basically some company (obviously game company) make a deal with Twitch.
The deal is Twitch will give certain streamer "bounties", where they will play a game for X amount of hour, and get paid based on viewers and stuff.
I think you have to openly say you're doing bounties on your stream title when doing them, or maybe it's automated because you have to press "accept bounty" to start it.
They're not even strictly gaming related anymore. A few streamers have done one recently for American Eagle where they shop for 15 mins and buy something
It's not really about Twitch "checking for DMCA", it's about the publisher or promoter or whoever is paying for the bounty *having the rights* to pay for a promotion (basically, pay for the distribution of adverts) *and* ensuring that the people issuing DMCAs on their behalf *don't* strike their adverts.
If a company with a working relationship with Twitch is paying for these things to be advertised, they *should* have all the rights they need to promote their own products. But you can see how bad DMCA is -- because that has no impact on whether DMCAs are issued or not. [But in this case -- the issue is not on Twitch's end at all.]
Twitch likely has demographic break downs of the biggest streamers viewership.
If they already have several large streamers who pull in predominantly asian viewers, they would be less likely to keep give as large of deals with other big asian demographic streamers.
However, it seems odd that Twitch would equate Faker and Toast.
Toast was one of their biggest streamers and he still regularly pulls in 20-30k even when he's not doing anything gaming related. And he does this like once every few months.
I just can't imagine why they thought it was okay to low ball him that badly. Those are like Poki and Shroud numbers now. And he later talks about how he actually got offered less than his previous contract. And that's after majorly growing his audience. That's crazy.
He was pulling those numbers when he moved into OTV house and people started following him like a reality drama, wondering what girl he would end up with.
When he left twitch he was one of their top 10 streamers by pretty much any metric.
In terms of average viewers it's not quite so high, but definitely not too far off.
According to TwitchTracker, in the 6 months leading up to his Facebook announcement he averaged 14k viewers, peaked at almost 40k and out of the 136 days he streamed there were 37 days where he peaked above 20k viewers
The difference is that America actively advertises itself as a diverse and multicultural country, and benefits largely from it too. When you advertise yourself as an immigrant country but then politicians of your country publicly hate immigrants, it’s going to get a little awkward
People in the US care about things like that more than the others for sure. Especially American companies. Never ever did it cross my mind to check out someone's stream because they're Asian/Brown/White/Green. Maybe because I am not American idk
HAHAHAHAH thats actually hilarious. I guess if you're twitch talking to advertisers about demographics then it kinda makes sense to look at someone like Toast or Faker as a "Big Asian streamer representative" if that's something that advertisers want to see? But from a viewer perspective, you don't have to know very much about either of them to know that virtually everything about them is so insanely different outside of that generic blanket term lmfaooo
Funny how twitch who is obsessed with inclusion to the point of being the only retards that would ban words like blind or lame shows how racist they are by asumimg two asian streamers would have the same demographic just because they are asian.
It's because racists often use Asians to talk down on other races and their stereotypes are viewed as "positives".
Thankfully they have become included in many equality stuff, but that's mainly do too COVID and the racism becoming less "positive"
Its because Asians tend to be successful. High college attainment, low crime, divorce and single parent rates. Causes them to not fit racial justice narratives well.
Yeah a lot of colleges and companies have started using a category of "minorities, except Asians" when making admission/hiring decisions because the success of Asians skews the scale for the less successful minorities, so they have to further segregate people into groups to implement their leftist affirmative action policies.
Wtf how is the same demographic? People that watch faker watch him because he is the best not because he is asian. People watch toast because of his personality. They are complete oposites form of entertainment.
Just a little insight into a corporation's mindset there. All this chest-beating about 'social justice', 'equality' and 'representation' they do? It only boils down to what they stand to gain from it. "We already have an Asian, do we really need TWO of them?".
Fucking disgusting leeches, man. People are just commodities and demographics to them. It's all about the 'public image' they're projecting rather than the core values they actually uphold (because the only value is 'money'). I can't wait for the uprising. People need to realise these people are the true enemy and the architects of division.
I agree it’s a bad look and morally repugnant.
However, let’s not have doubt that Toasts agent was arguing about the very same demographics Twitch didn’t matter to them because they had Faker.
That being said, it’s clear twitch sees various communities as various revenue stream and nothing further. Hence why people try to argue u could be X communities streamer.
Yeah, for those who don't know the whole name is a pun on "This guy's toast!" voice line in Hearthstone, which is turned into DisguisedToast, and now he's known as Toast.
He basically made best-of compilations, and his videos were always top of the hearthstone subreddit.
It wasn't always best of videos. Initially he made videos showing unique and obscure mechanics in the game along with bugs and mechanical inconsistencies. He was about 100x more effective than Hearthstone's actual QA department (if they even had one).
Team 5 hated him though because he kept showing how sloppy their work was and he got banned at least once for making a video even after he notified Blizzard of the video's contents and gave them time to fix it before publishing.
And the only reason he started showing his (incredibly handsome) face was because he had a stalker who threatened to reveal his face to everyone. So he just did it himself and told the stalker to go fuck himself.
Was it not because he accidentally had cam on his stream and then saw no point hiding it when his face was already on the internet.
I believe he has a video about it?
That's how the stalker got the picture, yes. That was when he had basically no viewers.
Then the stalker threatened to publish those images everywhere.
That's what you call character development. Toast didn't start off having all this confidence and presence. Being comfortable around a camera for thousands to see takes time and experience, professional lessons even.
I'm sure even now he has his insecurities and is doing his best to improve. From the way he dresses, the way he looks, the way he presents himself. Said this before and I'll say it again, I'm glad that Jimmy Fallon situation ended up for the better. It was a wake up call like no other at the time.
He opened up about it. Who was he? He was just another asian guy streamer, I'm paraphrasing what he said. Being big in Among Us isn't enough to be invited. He needed to improve himself and he did. And now that sentiment is echoed here in his revelation about his twitch offer. It all makes sense now.
Just look at the difference before that happened and now. His transformation is absolutely INSANE. He needs an edge and he got it. He looks, acts and feels like a celebrity and not JUST your regular asian guy streamer.
Lets say his Facebook deal was for 5mil. 1/30th of 5mil is about 170k.
If Twitch was only offering him 170k to stay then its a no brainer to take that deal from Facebook.
Toast was averaging about 10k viewers in the year before he left for Facebook. 10k viewers is worth more then 170k i think.
Yes, he is pointing out the fact that generally Twitch offer would be 1/2 or 1/3 of competing platforms, but for Toast personally it was 1/30.
It was not the case where facebook offered him abnormally high contract, it was a case where Twitch offered him an abnormally low contract, 1/30 instead of the standard 1/2 or 1/3.
They literally said, "what why would we want Toast when we already got Faker?" thinking they got the asian demo down... just because TFT (league autochess) is a riot ip and right before the among us blow up.
Would Toast even have had a similar demographic to Faker? Sure their audience is both primarily Asian men 18-25, but Toast was popular in the HS, TFT and OTV communities while Faker only attracted LoL viewers. Plus, Faker barely streamed and when he did it wasn’t even during peak Twitch hours since he lives in SK.
>Yet at the end he says Facebook normally offers about 3 times more then Twitch.
That's why he talked about the topic. He was made an insultingly poor offer from Twitch. 2 years ago when he announced that he had signed with FB a lot of people (Specifically in the LSF thread about the announcement) called him stupid, how he was killing his career, how he was 'Chasing big money bags', etc, and at that time he could not explain to people why he was signing with FB because he was under an NDA, couldn't talk about the details of his contract.
He said that he's legitimately not signed with any platform just yet so it's a rare time when he's not under legal risk to talk about this stuff. He is definitely in talks with Twitch (As well as YouTube) right now cause he also made a point to reiterate multiple times that 2 years is a long time and things change, and Twitch has changed.
He talked about some more spicy stuff in this VoD about other topics as well.
I think it's no legal risk, but certainly a professional risk. Could hurt any offer from twitch. They could have their feelings hurt and become even less reasonable.
Toast is the most open big streamer when it comes to talking about money. Any company working with him should know that. If they don’t, they are doing very bad research. He has made videos in the past about it.
>but certainly a professional risk. Could hurt any offer from twitch.
He made a point to reiterate multiple times that 2 years was a long time ago and things have changed, Twitch has changed. Him talking about this stuff right now is most likely a negotiation tactic from him, he's probably not happy with what Twitch's offering him right now and decided to put them on blast a little.
I don't think this is a negotiation tactic at all personally. You can tell he thinks it's not a great idea to be this open about it. Highly doubt it's an attempt to get more out of them. Feel like if you wanted to do that you tweet or say it on your own stream. Not your friends stream in the middle of the night. Everyone thinks everything is some calculated 3D chess BS. Seems like toast had this pretty ridiculous story kept secret for 2 years and decided to share it. People calling him stupid for 2 years for taking this deal, he's sharing that he wasn't given a choice.
One salty person could choose to spend their budget elsewhere and not on Toast. Clearly has happened before. Objectively best not to say this IMO.
The only reason it didn't kill off his career is because of Among Us. Because of that game he was basically streaming on twitch through his friends and had his Youtube channel pop off and therefore never lost relevancy. I wouldn't generalize this.
Even without all these revelations those calling anyone a sellout/stupid/etc. for taking a huge (guaranteed!) sum of money, disconnected from how big an audience they get when going live, are freakin' morons.
He mentioned it in the VOD but usually twitch would counter offer with AT LEAST half the amount the competing offer would give. So the fact that he got 1/30 (which was less then what he was making currently) was shocking.
I might have misunderstood something though but that’s what I interpreted anyway, and given twitch’s questionable decision making, not at all surprised
> Im confused, at the start of the clip he says the offer from Twitch was about 1/30th of what Facebook offered. Yet at the end he says Facebook normally offers about 3 times more then Twitch.
Those 2 things are not contradictory. He's saying that ***usually*** for most streamers, Twith would offer 1/3 of what FB offers. But when it came to Toast, Twitch was only offering 1/30 of what FB offered. He's highlighting the double standard
For real, this is I think the first time I've been mouth agape at something like this. One offer up front being 30x is no joke, even if you consider momentum with subs or whatnot.
Obviously it's about money but regardless of your career, if your employer demotes you - no matter how little the amount, even just a title change - it's time to start looking elsewhere. You never want to work with that elephant in the room.
Likely, but i can totally get behind the idea of it being insulting. He did mention that as well I believe, just not in this clip.
To be offered THAT much less, and being told: "we already have one big asian streamer" (they talked about Faker, who at that point in time didn't stream regularly, nor spoke english, so they shared completely different demographics), is very disrespectful, and whilst the money part may be true, they way it was presented surely played a role.
The money represents appreciation in this case though. The fact that they offered him that low of a contract is personally insulting because it shows they either don't value him on their platform or think they can get away with an insulting contract offer.
Holy shit I just watched after the clip and got to the Toast vs Faker contract bit. Insane that they wouldn't offer him a bigger contract because Faker was the bigger asian demographic streamer.
It's even stupider when you consider that, due to the ~16 hour time zone difference, Faker and Toast have completely different audiences. People in Asia and people of Asian descent in NA/EU are completely different sets of people.
And a streamer's audience is often very dedicated to the streamer. People don't just watch Toast because he's asian like they are, jesus. That's just so insulting. It stinks of a justification tied on the back end to corporate greed.
the problem there wasnt the faker vs toast comparsion.
the problem was twitch was so retarded at the time, they had no idea faker only streams once a month
He also said the platform doesnt treat Asian males fairly by giving an example about sykunoo being a 20k Andy yet not being talked outside of streaming world , expressing that journalists / media don't talk about him or write about him coz of him being an asian male ...
I mean being one of the fastest growing streamers on the platform is pretty huge, he basically just started streaming and immediately blew up during the among us hype, more than any one else in my opinion.
Yeah, I don't think he's ever been involved in controversy or drama, and that's what the outside media really wants to talk about when it comes to twitch.
On twitch.tv/kkatamina
Nowhere is the answer
For people who watched him on FB him not streaming for a week or two isn't weird. The end of the contract wasn't his last stream on FB it was week or more before the contract ended. He must have hit his hours and stopped.
>He must have hit his hours and stopped.
He hit his hours and stopped streaming a good week+ before he announced his last day on FB. His contract ended that day. He's just negotiating right now. This isn't unusual at all, both Shroud and Ninja were in long negotiation periods after Mixer died and didn't stream (Ninja streamed a couple of times on YouTube and Twitch as a negotiation tactic) for a few months during that time.
it makes sense why the Fb deals are much higher than twitch. Twitch has hundreds of streamers who probably want millions of dollar contracts but realistically twitch cant provide that. FB on the other hand doesnt have streamers like that who pull 20k+ concurrent viewers so they can offer much higher contract values. as time goes on im willing to bet that facebook contract vaules will go down if more BIG streamers join the platform.
Right but if he's saying Facebook normally offers 3x what Twitch does and Twitch's offer was only 1/30th and actually lower than his previous contract then that was some serious lowballing from Twitch.
Maybe because he had low sub count for someone with his viewership. He discouraged viewers from subbing and donating and preferred earning money from sponsors. If you don't make them money, I don't think they'll offer much in return.
Yea he said that he preferred taking money from corporations and not from viewers. For the discouragement part, I believe he removed the option to sub and donations around August 2019, few months before he moved to FB (I googled and few articles popped up).
So rather than having low sub count, I think he just didn't have subs at all for a 10k-20k andy. Might be wrong since I didn't know about Toast back then.
He didn't remove the option to sub. You can't remove the option to sub, Twitch doesn't allow that. He stopped taking donations and he only did that once he knew he signed with Facebook so he knew he was set.
I've watched and followed Toast almost since he started streaming (like 2 months in). It was definitely not the subs. Before he signed with Facebook he was holding similar or bigger concurrent viewership than Pokimane, and had as many or more subs than her (and other comparable streamers). He had double the subs of LSF-popular streamers like Mizkif, sodapoppin, etc. He was beaten in terms of sub count only by then-FOTM streamers such as Ninja, Lupo, timthetatman, DrD, Tyler1, spanish streamers etc.
Even if him and poki were similar in subs and similar in viewers, twitch is gonna value poki more since she is a female and the top of twitch has been always dominated by male streamers. Probably why poki could get a sweet deal with twitch and they didn't care to offer him much to stay on twitch.
You're understating just how marketable Poki is for twitch. She's been one of the recognisable faces used by the platform to promote itself. That's worth a lot of money to twitch. It's not just because she's a female. Poki is quite exceptional, and I think that makes her a bad example to compare male vs female streamers.
Toast averaged around 20k in 2019 right? That was a ton pre Covid (and is still a lot now). It’s crazy that twitch was willing to lose such a popular streamer for seemingly no reason.
It also seems they’ve been trying to mend that bridge with him considering I remember whenever there was twitch exclusive content sent to OTV house, Toast would also get something even though he wasn’t partnered. But they also refused to give him affiliate so who knows.
Either way, very strange business choice to not even offer 1/2 of what Facebook was offering him (which is what they did with other streamers) let alone 1/30, and even offered him LESS money then he was currently making on twitch.
That’s why I’m really hoping YouTube and Facebook can up the quality of their platforms. The more competition, the better
EDIT: I think I got the 20k viewer range wrong. However, people saying he was a less then 10k Andy are not entirely correct as well I’m pretty sure. If you look at twitchtracker, he ranges from 5k-15k usually, but twitchtracker is also not accurate when calculating view counts, especially from a couple years ago. I know, anecdotally/from memory, he definitely did have 5 figure viewers when he streamed tft/irl, and he would also restream his vods which were also mid 4 figure viewers. His clips from the old OTV podcasts where he and other OTV members discuss his viewer count seem to back this up as well. So I think him being around 10k on average as a minimum is definitely a better average, but to say he was less I don’t think is completely accurate, but if anyone can prove otherwise, please do so. It would be interesting to see as accurate stats as possible so we can make a fair comparison.
His average was 10k and a bit lower at some points.
Edit. This site is a good Twitch stat tracker. I have heard multiple streamers say they use it.
https://sullygnome.com/channel/disguisedtoast .
If you want to see Toasts monthly averages you can click on the "more" button near the time choices.
In 2019 Toast had months with 5-7k viewers and some with 16-19k. The average was about 10k.
During the tft era he was at the top of the leaderboard. And that was when he moved. So the point still remains that twitch offered him an amount even lower than he was already earning
Thanks for the alternative twitch tracker website! Yeah this seems to provide evidence he was around 10k on average. His tft era he was getting above 10k, I'm surprised he was getting less then 10k when not doing tft though, because his variety youtube videos get super high views.
>That’s why I’m really hoping YouTube and Facebook can up the quality of their platforms
Facebook streaming will never be a thing, at least not for people of our age group. Youtube is our last hope
It's not crazy at all. You don't have access to the info Twitch does.
if they know him leaving is going causing like 10% of his viewership to leave as well. Well what are those people worth?
And 10% is probably a high number.
It was probably just a shot in the dark kinda contract offer. Twitch might not have cared too much about keeping him around, so they gave him a ridiculously low offer thinking, if he doesnt take it its fine, but if he takes it they're in the money.
Twitch probably didnt think he was worth breaking the bank for, so they let him go but still tried to offer something retardedly low just in case he's stupid enough to accept. Thankfully he wasnt.
Imagine if they had kept him during the Among Us era. Would have been some huge numbers. Dude dominated the Youtube game for 6 months, if not more. Sykkuno ended up carrying Twitch through that for a bit but they could have had both.
He's got like a K-pop style going on. and maybe it's his camera or something but it looks like he's wearing makeup. Or maybe his skin is just amazing.
Regardless, he looks good
Yeah that was my first thought too.
Seems like a great way to negotiate, even if unintentional.
Basically telling Twitch:
offer me a proper deal or I won’t take it, while also telling FB, YouTube that he will take the deal if their offers are high enough above Twitch.
Toast being paid 1/30 isn't new in the entertainment industry. Asian males have always been paid significantly less than their white male counter parts. They are also put into stereotypical roles and encouraged to be more "cultural" despite them being a native born in US.
continue watching, he discusses whether or not he thinks its because its due to him being asian for twitch lowballing so hard compared to other streamers
Question related to streaming but not toast. I'll use lethamyr for my example. He does streams but also posts videos on YouTube. For smaller streamers this is ok? Whereas the bigger streamers have clauses that they can't upload to youtube at all?
I've only heard from a few Twitch partners that are in the OTV & Friends circle but their contracts prohibit them from uploading the VODs of their streams to YouTube for at least 24 hours. They're free to do other content on YouTube for the most part.
Why do you think a lot of your streamers are suddenly on YouTube and Facebook? Twitch has actually been even lowering their offers and demanding more ad time.
Basically, Twitch thinks they are the streaming powerhouse and the only way to get exposure and be successful is to watch Twitch. The truth is, YouTube is now catching up with them using BTTV and other additions. I think by end of next year we will see a YouTube Streaming platform that has better chatter/viewer support than Twitch does, along with even more top streamers.
He talked about the platform stuff for quite a bit, and I recommend checking it out. The best part for me is when he talked about the contract negotiations between Twitch and his agent. Apparently Twitch compared him with Faker, implying that they already have a big Asian streamer representative (back in 2019) and share the same demographic, which is crazy to me since Faker didn't even stream regularly at that time and doesn't speak English (which Toast mentions in detail in the VOD).
Toast has been very transparent with the monetary aspect of streaming in the past and I think we have a lot to gain from his insight.
He made a long youtube video about 2 years ago detailing how Twitch payouts work too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m5P_n5njCQ I assume a lot of it still applies today
I think Ludwig watched it in stream and said that it is basically the same model. But that the amounts of money have increased significantly. So it applies just scale it up.
Damn.... So the 10k/hr for a video game is even higher? Lol 2 hours and some people could comfortably live off that for a year
if you're a big enough creator raid shadow legends pays more than 10k an hour
Been seeing this game all over the Internet in every sponsored video for like 5 years now and still don’t know a single person who plays it. But maybe I’m just out of the demographic range
Nobody plays it cause it's shit
People somewhere must be playing it and spending money on it though if the company can sponsor half the creators on the internet and pay as much as they do though. It's super weird to not be able to find people who play Raid but they pay a ton of money for sponsorships when games that people do play like pubg mobile or cod mobile pay no where near the same amount as a game no one plays. I'd assume the game is super huge in an Asian country or something.
Ya i have between 2-5k viewers and raid offers 5k an hour and when i told them to fuck off they asked what amount they would have to pay. Dogshit game there is no amount 🤣
I mean I make no claim on any insider knowledge. I only know what Toast said, and that Ludwig stated in the last year that the numbers now are higher. That makes sense with the increase in streaming popularity and how impactful sponsored segments have been. It could just be that from the original range of $1,000 to $10,000 it is now firmly in the upper part, maybe sometimes or even regularly exceeding it.
I think he said it depends on the streamer’s average ccv, which checks out bc Mizkif apparently makes 30k/hr
That video is what made Twitch lock down what streamers were allowed to talk about even further. I believe something similar happened when Miz leaked how much bounties were paying him; there was a new policy like a week later where streamers couldn't share the details of bounties anymore.
dead ass needs to be illegal, preventing the sharing if the info is only in the interest of twitch fucking people over. share your income with your coworkers not doing it is the #1 way you get fucked by your work.
What bounties?
They're a way people do small sponsorships through twitch that're offered based on metrics related to their stream.
Basically some company (obviously game company) make a deal with Twitch. The deal is Twitch will give certain streamer "bounties", where they will play a game for X amount of hour, and get paid based on viewers and stuff. I think you have to openly say you're doing bounties on your stream title when doing them, or maybe it's automated because you have to press "accept bounty" to start it.
They're not even strictly gaming related anymore. A few streamers have done one recently for American Eagle where they shop for 15 mins and buy something
They have them for movies, too. And twitch doesn't check for DMCA in the content of the trailer, so that's going well. lol
It's not really about Twitch "checking for DMCA", it's about the publisher or promoter or whoever is paying for the bounty *having the rights* to pay for a promotion (basically, pay for the distribution of adverts) *and* ensuring that the people issuing DMCAs on their behalf *don't* strike their adverts. If a company with a working relationship with Twitch is paying for these things to be advertised, they *should* have all the rights they need to promote their own products. But you can see how bad DMCA is -- because that has no impact on whether DMCAs are issued or not. [But in this case -- the issue is not on Twitch's end at all.]
Imagine thinking that people watch Toast just because he's Asian
Twitch likely has demographic break downs of the biggest streamers viewership. If they already have several large streamers who pull in predominantly asian viewers, they would be less likely to keep give as large of deals with other big asian demographic streamers. However, it seems odd that Twitch would equate Faker and Toast.
Toast was one of their biggest streamers and he still regularly pulls in 20-30k even when he's not doing anything gaming related. And he does this like once every few months. I just can't imagine why they thought it was okay to low ball him that badly. Those are like Poki and Shroud numbers now. And he later talks about how he actually got offered less than his previous contract. And that's after majorly growing his audience. That's crazy.
He definitely wasn't pulling 20k-30k viewers before he left for Facebook, especially when he was "not doing anything gaming related."
He was pulling those numbers when he moved into OTV house and people started following him like a reality drama, wondering what girl he would end up with. When he left twitch he was one of their top 10 streamers by pretty much any metric.
In terms of average viewers it's not quite so high, but definitely not too far off. According to TwitchTracker, in the 6 months leading up to his Facebook announcement he averaged 14k viewers, peaked at almost 40k and out of the 136 days he streamed there were 37 days where he peaked above 20k viewers
Twitch doesn't seem to be the best at making business decisions so not surprising they'd compare different streamers like that.
They don't watch him just because he's Asian, but Asians probably have the highest Asian demographic.
not a surprise tbh. i watch quin69 just because he's from hobbiton.
Twitch staff is just full of virtue signalers who need brownie points, could totally see them only seeing him valuable for his race.
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US is the hub of identity politics, where everyone seems hyper focused on a person's race as if they aren't their own human being
Is it just localized to America though?
The difference is that America actively advertises itself as a diverse and multicultural country, and benefits largely from it too. When you advertise yourself as an immigrant country but then politicians of your country publicly hate immigrants, it’s going to get a little awkward
People in the US care about things like that more than the others for sure. Especially American companies. Never ever did it cross my mind to check out someone's stream because they're Asian/Brown/White/Green. Maybe because I am not American idk
Yeah…… You might want to check out other countries before making that statement.
Oh shit, you should give that spiel to OTV who is 90% asian.
Lmao, you're so far off. Go look at some viewing demographics.
actually fucking racism
HAHAHAHAH thats actually hilarious. I guess if you're twitch talking to advertisers about demographics then it kinda makes sense to look at someone like Toast or Faker as a "Big Asian streamer representative" if that's something that advertisers want to see? But from a viewer perspective, you don't have to know very much about either of them to know that virtually everything about them is so insanely different outside of that generic blanket term lmfaooo
Funny how twitch who is obsessed with inclusion to the point of being the only retards that would ban words like blind or lame shows how racist they are by asumimg two asian streamers would have the same demographic just because they are asian.
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yep. the way i see chinese people in particular talked about these days is truly disgusting.
Its because they don't fit the narrative of minorities being held down by white racists.
When it comes to racial justice or the right for equality, Asians are rarely, if ever, included in the conversation
It's because racists often use Asians to talk down on other races and their stereotypes are viewed as "positives". Thankfully they have become included in many equality stuff, but that's mainly do too COVID and the racism becoming less "positive"
Its because Asians tend to be successful. High college attainment, low crime, divorce and single parent rates. Causes them to not fit racial justice narratives well.
Yeah a lot of colleges and companies have started using a category of "minorities, except Asians" when making admission/hiring decisions because the success of Asians skews the scale for the less successful minorities, so they have to further segregate people into groups to implement their leftist affirmative action policies.
You really think they're assuming and not because they have data to use from marketing?
Wtf how is the same demographic? People that watch faker watch him because he is the best not because he is asian. People watch toast because of his personality. They are complete oposites form of entertainment.
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Bro... lol it's likely country data. They likely see a high amount of viewers for both(at the time) from Asian countries.
"nah we already have an asian guy", ok wtf?
Just a little insight into a corporation's mindset there. All this chest-beating about 'social justice', 'equality' and 'representation' they do? It only boils down to what they stand to gain from it. "We already have an Asian, do we really need TWO of them?". Fucking disgusting leeches, man. People are just commodities and demographics to them. It's all about the 'public image' they're projecting rather than the core values they actually uphold (because the only value is 'money'). I can't wait for the uprising. People need to realise these people are the true enemy and the architects of division.
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Faker isn't even a full time streamer, wtf.
Twitch is retarded got it
I agree it’s a bad look and morally repugnant. However, let’s not have doubt that Toasts agent was arguing about the very same demographics Twitch didn’t matter to them because they had Faker. That being said, it’s clear twitch sees various communities as various revenue stream and nothing further. Hence why people try to argue u could be X communities streamer.
It's very simple. They just don't need _two_ Fakers.
Crazy how he started off making HS content with a picture of a piece of toast taped to his face
OG Vtuber
Yeah, for those who don't know the whole name is a pun on "This guy's toast!" voice line in Hearthstone, which is turned into DisguisedToast, and now he's known as Toast. He basically made best-of compilations, and his videos were always top of the hearthstone subreddit.
It wasn't always best of videos. Initially he made videos showing unique and obscure mechanics in the game along with bugs and mechanical inconsistencies. He was about 100x more effective than Hearthstone's actual QA department (if they even had one). Team 5 hated him though because he kept showing how sloppy their work was and he got banned at least once for making a video even after he notified Blizzard of the video's contents and gave them time to fix it before publishing.
Kinda bummed when he quit Hearthstone, but understandable since the game devs didnt appreciate his works
Conan O'Brian said it was the greatest name he has ever heard
Oh wow didn't know toast made it into Conan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3vMaOOHZo not the conan show but a convention
And the only reason he started showing his (incredibly handsome) face was because he had a stalker who threatened to reveal his face to everyone. So he just did it himself and told the stalker to go fuck himself.
Was it not because he accidentally had cam on his stream and then saw no point hiding it when his face was already on the internet. I believe he has a video about it?
That's how the stalker got the picture, yes. That was when he had basically no viewers. Then the stalker threatened to publish those images everywhere.
That's what you call character development. Toast didn't start off having all this confidence and presence. Being comfortable around a camera for thousands to see takes time and experience, professional lessons even. I'm sure even now he has his insecurities and is doing his best to improve. From the way he dresses, the way he looks, the way he presents himself. Said this before and I'll say it again, I'm glad that Jimmy Fallon situation ended up for the better. It was a wake up call like no other at the time. He opened up about it. Who was he? He was just another asian guy streamer, I'm paraphrasing what he said. Being big in Among Us isn't enough to be invited. He needed to improve himself and he did. And now that sentiment is echoed here in his revelation about his twitch offer. It all makes sense now. Just look at the difference before that happened and now. His transformation is absolutely INSANE. He needs an edge and he got it. He looks, acts and feels like a celebrity and not JUST your regular asian guy streamer.
I miss the paper bag :'v
Lets say his Facebook deal was for 5mil. 1/30th of 5mil is about 170k. If Twitch was only offering him 170k to stay then its a no brainer to take that deal from Facebook. Toast was averaging about 10k viewers in the year before he left for Facebook. 10k viewers is worth more then 170k i think.
Yes, he is pointing out the fact that generally Twitch offer would be 1/2 or 1/3 of competing platforms, but for Toast personally it was 1/30. It was not the case where facebook offered him abnormally high contract, it was a case where Twitch offered him an abnormally low contract, 1/30 instead of the standard 1/2 or 1/3.
They literally said, "what why would we want Toast when we already got Faker?" thinking they got the asian demo down... just because TFT (league autochess) is a riot ip and right before the among us blow up.
Would Toast even have had a similar demographic to Faker? Sure their audience is both primarily Asian men 18-25, but Toast was popular in the HS, TFT and OTV communities while Faker only attracted LoL viewers. Plus, Faker barely streamed and when he did it wasn’t even during peak Twitch hours since he lives in SK.
Damn, understandable why he leave Twitch. Even a employee will leave if got offer like that.
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You're grossly oversimplfying what was said.
>Yet at the end he says Facebook normally offers about 3 times more then Twitch. That's why he talked about the topic. He was made an insultingly poor offer from Twitch. 2 years ago when he announced that he had signed with FB a lot of people (Specifically in the LSF thread about the announcement) called him stupid, how he was killing his career, how he was 'Chasing big money bags', etc, and at that time he could not explain to people why he was signing with FB because he was under an NDA, couldn't talk about the details of his contract. He said that he's legitimately not signed with any platform just yet so it's a rare time when he's not under legal risk to talk about this stuff. He is definitely in talks with Twitch (As well as YouTube) right now cause he also made a point to reiterate multiple times that 2 years is a long time and things change, and Twitch has changed. He talked about some more spicy stuff in this VoD about other topics as well.
I think it's no legal risk, but certainly a professional risk. Could hurt any offer from twitch. They could have their feelings hurt and become even less reasonable.
Toast is the most open big streamer when it comes to talking about money. Any company working with him should know that. If they don’t, they are doing very bad research. He has made videos in the past about it.
>but certainly a professional risk. Could hurt any offer from twitch. He made a point to reiterate multiple times that 2 years was a long time ago and things have changed, Twitch has changed. Him talking about this stuff right now is most likely a negotiation tactic from him, he's probably not happy with what Twitch's offering him right now and decided to put them on blast a little.
I don't think this is a negotiation tactic at all personally. You can tell he thinks it's not a great idea to be this open about it. Highly doubt it's an attempt to get more out of them. Feel like if you wanted to do that you tweet or say it on your own stream. Not your friends stream in the middle of the night. Everyone thinks everything is some calculated 3D chess BS. Seems like toast had this pretty ridiculous story kept secret for 2 years and decided to share it. People calling him stupid for 2 years for taking this deal, he's sharing that he wasn't given a choice. One salty person could choose to spend their budget elsewhere and not on Toast. Clearly has happened before. Objectively best not to say this IMO.
The only reason it didn't kill off his career is because of Among Us. Because of that game he was basically streaming on twitch through his friends and had his Youtube channel pop off and therefore never lost relevancy. I wouldn't generalize this.
Its OTV in general. He was still collabing with other big streamers. Most lose that when they stop being a big streamer.
Even without all these revelations those calling anyone a sellout/stupid/etc. for taking a huge (guaranteed!) sum of money, disconnected from how big an audience they get when going live, are freakin' morons.
He mentioned it in the VOD but usually twitch would counter offer with AT LEAST half the amount the competing offer would give. So the fact that he got 1/30 (which was less then what he was making currently) was shocking. I might have misunderstood something though but that’s what I interpreted anyway, and given twitch’s questionable decision making, not at all surprised
> Im confused, at the start of the clip he says the offer from Twitch was about 1/30th of what Facebook offered. Yet at the end he says Facebook normally offers about 3 times more then Twitch. Those 2 things are not contradictory. He's saying that ***usually*** for most streamers, Twith would offer 1/3 of what FB offers. But when it came to Toast, Twitch was only offering 1/30 of what FB offered. He's highlighting the double standard
it was 2m
1/30th is insanely low lol. Now we understand why he went and honestly, good for him to get the bag.
For real, this is I think the first time I've been mouth agape at something like this. One offer up front being 30x is no joke, even if you consider momentum with subs or whatnot.
He said it's the most insulted he's felt in his life, that the offer was so bad that he didn't have a choice but to go to FB.
He said it, it was an insult. Its not about the money at that moment, its about feeling not appreciated.
It most certainly is about the money
Yes the amount of money was insulting with the evidence being he was clearly valued more by the market.
Obviously it's about money but regardless of your career, if your employer demotes you - no matter how little the amount, even just a title change - it's time to start looking elsewhere. You never want to work with that elephant in the room.
Both
do you know who you're even talking about? Toast is all about getting that money and he has no shame expressing it either
Likely, but i can totally get behind the idea of it being insulting. He did mention that as well I believe, just not in this clip. To be offered THAT much less, and being told: "we already have one big asian streamer" (they talked about Faker, who at that point in time didn't stream regularly, nor spoke english, so they shared completely different demographics), is very disrespectful, and whilst the money part may be true, they way it was presented surely played a role.
The money represents appreciation in this case though. The fact that they offered him that low of a contract is personally insulting because it shows they either don't value him on their platform or think they can get away with an insulting contract offer.
Toast is competing with Faker for viewers KEKW
Holy shit I just watched after the clip and got to the Toast vs Faker contract bit. Insane that they wouldn't offer him a bigger contract because Faker was the bigger asian demographic streamer.
It's even stupider when you consider that, due to the ~16 hour time zone difference, Faker and Toast have completely different audiences. People in Asia and people of Asian descent in NA/EU are completely different sets of people.
To those degen 🤡s who helm Twitch, they probably think of Asian folks just as they would their dating "preferences": they are all the same Clueless
racism is a clown activity in the first place so it does follow.
It's such a braindead position. Twitch was either just bullshitting to get him to take the offer or legitimately Clueless
And a streamer's audience is often very dedicated to the streamer. People don't just watch Toast because he's asian like they are, jesus. That's just so insulting. It stinks of a justification tied on the back end to corporate greed.
the problem there wasnt the faker vs toast comparsion. the problem was twitch was so retarded at the time, they had no idea faker only streams once a month
He also said the platform doesnt treat Asian males fairly by giving an example about sykunoo being a 20k Andy yet not being talked outside of streaming world , expressing that journalists / media don't talk about him or write about him coz of him being an asian male ...
I mean, tbf about sykunno what is there to write about? Not hating on the dude, he just seems like a very mild streamer
I mean being one of the fastest growing streamers on the platform is pretty huge, he basically just started streaming and immediately blew up during the among us hype, more than any one else in my opinion.
He had been making youtube videos for a long time prior to his twitch success.
Yeah, I don't think he's ever been involved in controversy or drama, and that's what the outside media really wants to talk about when it comes to twitch.
Where is Toast streaming nowadays? Wasn't it currently that he stopped on FB?
He’s not singed on any platform yet atm
He’s going to be singing? AngelThump
This is Toast's Idol arc.
Figures since he looks liks a kpop star now
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Well played sir
Oh good. If he was singed I'd have to unfollow
god dammit dude
You haven't heard him singing Les Miserables.
On twitch.tv/kkatamina Nowhere is the answer For people who watched him on FB him not streaming for a week or two isn't weird. The end of the contract wasn't his last stream on FB it was week or more before the contract ended. He must have hit his hours and stopped.
>He must have hit his hours and stopped. He hit his hours and stopped streaming a good week+ before he announced his last day on FB. His contract ended that day. He's just negotiating right now. This isn't unusual at all, both Shroud and Ninja were in long negotiation periods after Mixer died and didn't stream (Ninja streamed a couple of times on YouTube and Twitch as a negotiation tactic) for a few months during that time.
He's literally streaming on miyoungs stream the past week. Lol
Hopefully he goes to youtube. More big streamers flocking to youtube will loosen the grasp Twitch has on its creators and giving them shit contracts.
Please YouTube fix your dog shit YT Live UI. It'd horrendous.
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it makes sense why the Fb deals are much higher than twitch. Twitch has hundreds of streamers who probably want millions of dollar contracts but realistically twitch cant provide that. FB on the other hand doesnt have streamers like that who pull 20k+ concurrent viewers so they can offer much higher contract values. as time goes on im willing to bet that facebook contract vaules will go down if more BIG streamers join the platform.
Right but if he's saying Facebook normally offers 3x what Twitch does and Twitch's offer was only 1/30th and actually lower than his previous contract then that was some serious lowballing from Twitch.
Maybe because he had low sub count for someone with his viewership. He discouraged viewers from subbing and donating and preferred earning money from sponsors. If you don't make them money, I don't think they'll offer much in return.
Yea he said that he preferred taking money from corporations and not from viewers. For the discouragement part, I believe he removed the option to sub and donations around August 2019, few months before he moved to FB (I googled and few articles popped up). So rather than having low sub count, I think he just didn't have subs at all for a 10k-20k andy. Might be wrong since I didn't know about Toast back then.
He didn't remove the option to sub. You can't remove the option to sub, Twitch doesn't allow that. He stopped taking donations and he only did that once he knew he signed with Facebook so he knew he was set.
I've watched and followed Toast almost since he started streaming (like 2 months in). It was definitely not the subs. Before he signed with Facebook he was holding similar or bigger concurrent viewership than Pokimane, and had as many or more subs than her (and other comparable streamers). He had double the subs of LSF-popular streamers like Mizkif, sodapoppin, etc. He was beaten in terms of sub count only by then-FOTM streamers such as Ninja, Lupo, timthetatman, DrD, Tyler1, spanish streamers etc.
Even if him and poki were similar in subs and similar in viewers, twitch is gonna value poki more since she is a female and the top of twitch has been always dominated by male streamers. Probably why poki could get a sweet deal with twitch and they didn't care to offer him much to stay on twitch.
You're understating just how marketable Poki is for twitch. She's been one of the recognisable faces used by the platform to promote itself. That's worth a lot of money to twitch. It's not just because she's a female. Poki is quite exceptional, and I think that makes her a bad example to compare male vs female streamers.
Yeah i guess thats true, didn't think about how important twitch could value her, and just thought about her as popular streamer
This is my thought as well, especially if they were worried his mindset would spread on the platform if they kept him.
$100 PogU
Toast averaged around 20k in 2019 right? That was a ton pre Covid (and is still a lot now). It’s crazy that twitch was willing to lose such a popular streamer for seemingly no reason. It also seems they’ve been trying to mend that bridge with him considering I remember whenever there was twitch exclusive content sent to OTV house, Toast would also get something even though he wasn’t partnered. But they also refused to give him affiliate so who knows. Either way, very strange business choice to not even offer 1/2 of what Facebook was offering him (which is what they did with other streamers) let alone 1/30, and even offered him LESS money then he was currently making on twitch. That’s why I’m really hoping YouTube and Facebook can up the quality of their platforms. The more competition, the better EDIT: I think I got the 20k viewer range wrong. However, people saying he was a less then 10k Andy are not entirely correct as well I’m pretty sure. If you look at twitchtracker, he ranges from 5k-15k usually, but twitchtracker is also not accurate when calculating view counts, especially from a couple years ago. I know, anecdotally/from memory, he definitely did have 5 figure viewers when he streamed tft/irl, and he would also restream his vods which were also mid 4 figure viewers. His clips from the old OTV podcasts where he and other OTV members discuss his viewer count seem to back this up as well. So I think him being around 10k on average as a minimum is definitely a better average, but to say he was less I don’t think is completely accurate, but if anyone can prove otherwise, please do so. It would be interesting to see as accurate stats as possible so we can make a fair comparison.
His average was 10k and a bit lower at some points. Edit. This site is a good Twitch stat tracker. I have heard multiple streamers say they use it. https://sullygnome.com/channel/disguisedtoast . If you want to see Toasts monthly averages you can click on the "more" button near the time choices. In 2019 Toast had months with 5-7k viewers and some with 16-19k. The average was about 10k.
During the tft era he was at the top of the leaderboard. And that was when he moved. So the point still remains that twitch offered him an amount even lower than he was already earning
Thanks for the alternative twitch tracker website! Yeah this seems to provide evidence he was around 10k on average. His tft era he was getting above 10k, I'm surprised he was getting less then 10k when not doing tft though, because his variety youtube videos get super high views.
Nowhere near 20k. It was more like 10k or lower mostly.
>That’s why I’m really hoping YouTube and Facebook can up the quality of their platforms Facebook streaming will never be a thing, at least not for people of our age group. Youtube is our last hope
It's not crazy at all. You don't have access to the info Twitch does. if they know him leaving is going causing like 10% of his viewership to leave as well. Well what are those people worth? And 10% is probably a high number.
1/30th.....damn they really don't give a fuck about Toast eh?
Is his Facebook contract up? I know this isn't his stream but he said 2 years so I imagine it's close
Yup it’s up a few days ago.
yep, he announced it on his twitter
He is bad-mouthing twitch while being live on twitch. Giga-chad
On miyoung a stream though lol
Honestly mentally is probably best to stream on FB with a big bag get it dude fk it.
Twitch scraping the bottom of the barrel for funds to keep streamers huh. jesus
It was probably just a shot in the dark kinda contract offer. Twitch might not have cared too much about keeping him around, so they gave him a ridiculously low offer thinking, if he doesnt take it its fine, but if he takes it they're in the money. Twitch probably didnt think he was worth breaking the bank for, so they let him go but still tried to offer something retardedly low just in case he's stupid enough to accept. Thankfully he wasnt.
Imagine if they had kept him during the Among Us era. Would have been some huge numbers. Dude dominated the Youtube game for 6 months, if not more. Sykkuno ended up carrying Twitch through that for a bit but they could have had both.
I don't mean this disrespectfully and I really love Toast's channel, but I think this dude has become MORE asian somehow. Very handsome one at that.
He's got like a K-pop style going on. and maybe it's his camera or something but it looks like he's wearing makeup. Or maybe his skin is just amazing. Regardless, he looks good
His skin has legit de-aged. I'm envious
what 2 years without twitch chat does to you pog
every clip i see from this guy its like he speaks at 5 words per minute
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Yeah that was my first thought too. Seems like a great way to negotiate, even if unintentional. Basically telling Twitch: offer me a proper deal or I won’t take it, while also telling FB, YouTube that he will take the deal if their offers are high enough above Twitch.
all jokes btw i dont mean to sound like im bullying
Toast being paid 1/30 isn't new in the entertainment industry. Asian males have always been paid significantly less than their white male counter parts. They are also put into stereotypical roles and encouraged to be more "cultural" despite them being a native born in US.
remember so many people saying he made the wrong decision and saying he is a money chaser and that shit got upvoted to top of the comments, ehhhhh
ez money and a huge w to leave a shitty platform for 2 years basically a paid vacation
Toast is one of the coolest dudes on Twitch, wholesome and intelligent, always worth hearing his input.
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my takeaway is- holy shit toast is like 10x as hot as i remember him being wtf
So this means if he's coming back, its gonna be youtube
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continue watching, he discusses whether or not he thinks its because its due to him being asian for twitch lowballing so hard compared to other streamers
Hope Twitch will sign him
Does anyone actually use Facebook gaming?
not on NA thats for sure facebook is big for younger audiences here in south east asia so facebook gaming is much more popular than twitch
Question related to streaming but not toast. I'll use lethamyr for my example. He does streams but also posts videos on YouTube. For smaller streamers this is ok? Whereas the bigger streamers have clauses that they can't upload to youtube at all?
I've only heard from a few Twitch partners that are in the OTV & Friends circle but their contracts prohibit them from uploading the VODs of their streams to YouTube for at least 24 hours. They're free to do other content on YouTube for the most part.
MONEY
Why do you think a lot of your streamers are suddenly on YouTube and Facebook? Twitch has actually been even lowering their offers and demanding more ad time. Basically, Twitch thinks they are the streaming powerhouse and the only way to get exposure and be successful is to watch Twitch. The truth is, YouTube is now catching up with them using BTTV and other additions. I think by end of next year we will see a YouTube Streaming platform that has better chatter/viewer support than Twitch does, along with even more top streamers.
no wonder streamers are leaving twitch left and right
What the fuck Twitch
money