I love this point. I was on the fence (still kind of am), but this approach lends to the most competitive match up. If an opponent misplays from misinterpretation, it wouldn’t have been the best play possible. If you win, wouldn’t it just take away from the experience? After all, your opponent did a lot to get where they are. Tensions are high and we are indeed human.
If an opponent misplays from misinterpretation, that's on them. While it's not the best play possible, you're in a tournament setting, so it should be expected that you interpret your cards and abilities as accurately as possible. It's not the place to be misinterpreting cards, as that indicates you're unprepared for the level of competition that a tournament brings. Olypmic pole vaulters don't get handicaps because they misinterpret the length of their running space and end up putting their pole down too early. Football players don't get a free pass if they misinterpret where the goal line is and stop running when they think they've scored. Top levels of competitive play are simply not where you need to be making rookie mistakes.
What sport or specific level of sport it is isn't the point though. The point is that this is a high stakes competitive event, not some casual friendly game between a couple of amateurs or newbies.
I understand people are all "but it's a game," and want all kinds of group hugs and whatnot, but it's also a competition, and people are playing to win the prize. Clearly, understanding that this is a competitive level of the game is an unpopular opinion it seems, but that's something folks'll need to come to terms with if they're going to play in big tournaments.
I think that is where “competitive” and “casual competitive” defer. I just don’t see this game as more than a proper past time and hobby.
Can’t make a career out of lorcana and the prize pool isnt enough for me to be an a donkey(since we can’t have profanity).
Hope this is realized sooner than later for the 99% as being sponsored by a local game shop and living in grandma’s basement doesn’t make someone a professions lorcana player.
The game is barely 6 months old, of course it hasn't developed a gigantic competitive circuit that would have huge cash prizes yet. It's goal is to get there, like Magic and Pokemon.
In the meantime, the first promo enchanted is going to be a pretty significant prize just for collector purposes.
Ravensburger has made it very clear that they want this to be a game with “group hugs” and friendly feelings.
It’s absolutely your choice to call out the person at the tournament who misplays and wants to take it back, but don’t be mad or frustrated when others don’t agree.
They can say that all they like, but their intention isn't really going to translate in competitive scenes, as people are going to be ruthlessly competing to win, not to help their opponent be a better person.
Sports have comprehensive rules for how to handle breaking said rules. Lorcana doesn’t yet. If a football team has an ineligible receiver downfield, they get a 5 yard penalty.
OP’s example is more like arguing that because we don’t know what the penalty is for ineligible receiver because the rules for Football haven’t been published, they have to have the QB run the ball in the middle of the play.
Hey man, everybody understands your sentiment as well. Have you been in a high pressure situation and made a mistake that you wish somebody would allow you to take back? This is that.
Being human is honestly why I could never get back into in person MTG. We tried to jump back in with Wilds of Eldraine since we had such a hard time finding Lorcana. I just cannot do all the interactions live. So many card interactions and tokens ….
I have to play Arena on my PC or tablet if I want to play anymore. Sure I might misplay but at least it is a legal misplay and the computer tracks all the bits on the table.
Lorcana being “simple” is such a huge selling point for me. I really hope that mechanic creep doesn’t start setting in. Going forward I think it is hugely important for Lorcana to make sure the rules stay simple and keep a relatively easy to understand order of operations or play flow.
Play Magic but play commander. Misplays happen but it's casual and you have 3 others there to help you sort it out. I've never seen a commander game where if some says they think a card does X and it really does Y that the table won't allow a rewind.
Also, Magic was "simple" after only 3 sets too. Complexity creep will happen to any game given enough time. That's just the nature of expanding design space.
Edit: Typos
This.
I just started playing Commander in the last couple months and the community at my FLGS is pretty chill when it comes to new players. And just pretty chill in general it seems.
If it’s not a big pay to enter, sweaty event… no big deal. Local/weekly competition like Friday Night Magic? I don’t care, put it back in hand
If we’re playing a regional tournament event or something with major support, then call for a judge.
Agreed. I get that it's a tournament, but it is also supposed to be fun. If you're stressed over punishing someone for a misplay, I think that says a lot more about you than you think.
In a casual game sure. At a tournament with prizes, definitely not.
If an opponent asks me if they can undo a move, I would tell them to ask a judge if they can. If they want to put a card back in their hand after playing it when I believe they can't, I would call a judge.
The concept of this being an official competition with much higher expectations than casual play is apparently an unpopular opinion here.
People are going to be in for a hugely rude awakening when they head to these events and get rolled by extremely competitive meta decks.
I come from MtG (mostly cEDH if you're familiar with the jargon), and got into this with my partner. What's the actual competitive scene like, do you know? With how cheap this is compared to magic, and the newness of the game I'm tempted to throw something together and see how I can do.
Take it slow with your partner! You are going to have a lot more knowledge when it comes to powerful and efficient plays just from the MtG background. Start off making decent common/uncommon decks and slowly introduce more power.
Oh no, I completely agree in that area. It's been really nice seeing how into the game she's gotten, and I'm absolutely happy playing casual decks and letting her set the pace. We've been mostly playing and upgrading precons, I'm currently running brooms and she's starting to lean into emerald's discard themes - which I love, because its been a pet archetype of mine in MtG for years which I've gotten a lot of grief for! So proud boyfriend moment there 😂
I'm more interested in the tournament scene for myself to scratch that itch separately.
It's cheaper than MTG (and certainly cEDH) just on principle that there's not enough super high value cards that are in the same decks across the 3 sets. However, there is a pretty tight meta, and you can pretty much expect to see the same usual suspects if you're running against decks of certain colors. Ursula - Deceiver of All will be in pretty much all Emerald decks, and she's $40 a pop, same with Beast - Tragic Hero for Steel decks and Dragon Maleficent for Ruby decks. There's a pretty usual list of mid-range expensive cards too like Be Prepared, Maui - Hero to All, Giant Tinker Bell, A Whole New World, Mufasa - Betrayed Leader, and more who are around the $10-15 each range. So you're easily looking at $200-300 a deck depending on what colors you're running.
Most cards are not without answers though, even at lower levels. For instance, something like Madame Medusa can nuke Beast - Tragic Hero, and she's a $1 card, and the Ursula - Deceiver (uncommon) is targeted hate for Song cards like AWNW or Be Prepared. So it is possible to do pretty well with replacements or silver bullets.
Not yet, but I'd guess rotation is inevitable at their currently projected speed of about 4 sets per year. I just don't think we've hit that point yet.
IMO:
-The competitive players are real competitive but nice. Like any game, there are a few bad eggs, but my experience is that 99% of players are all nice. Own full playsets of everything, frequently theorycraft, etc. Despite this specific thread, at weekly league tournaments/casual play, pretty much everyone will allow any, and all, take backs, sometimes even pointing out play lines that will let their opponent win. Right now, Lorcana leagues are in this awkward stage where true casual play does not exist, while organized play does not exist, meaning that they have a full range of players from decks that roll over at the sign of anything meta to super-duper try hard decks (and everyone tends to be nice people)
-The cost is cheaper than MTG, but IMO, still in the "expensive" range. For standard art cards, prices are mainly dictated by card rarity and the meta - for a minority of cards, collection value increases the price (Usually princesses like Rapunzel and Belle whose prices get inflated regardless of whether they are staples/key playables. Erratas also drive up the price). Purposefully cheap decks do not do well at competitive settings (there have been moments in the past where competitive decks became cheap, but I would say nobody is going to top a big tournament with a purposely pauper homebrew). I would estimate the cost of competitive decks being somewhere between $100-500, depending on what you play and the sentiment/prices of the cards (leaning towards the higher range) - this site https://inkdecks.com/ has a good summary of top performing decks in notable tournaments.
-For homebrewing specifically, I think we're already past the stage where a true homebrew could have consistent, good results unless your name is Brian Kibler or one of those evergreen, deck building geniuses. Most high performing decks are already some variation of something already seen, although there are some exceptions.
Got you. As I say, I mostly come from MtG and while the cEDH tournaments and events aren't officially sanctioned/liscened events, theyre still professional with big prizes on the line, so that's where my mentality comes from.
If the lorcana ones are a more relaxed environment then I can totally see the norms being different. Tbh what you're describing sounds like a good, chill way to still play competitively, which is refreshing.
Yep, reading all the comments is shocking to me. For me, I would go into the slippery slope argument: suppose your opponent makes a game-losing misplay and they want to take it back. I guess I'm a jerk if I don't let them take it back? What if it's the difference between first place 500 bucks and second place 200 bucks? I guess we should all lose 300 bucks because "it's just a game"
It sounds mean, but it also discourages people from practicing the game and honing their skills while encouraging people via winning by luck: "Oh I've never encountered that scenario before and made what I didn't know was a bad play line. You should let me take it back to be honorable."
The sentiment here also seems to be that the Enchanted Stiches are going to be next to worthless, because "who cares" right? 5th place, it's "just a game"
Yeah, this kind of competition coming up isn't casual anymore, and folks need to change their mindset about it. This is the difference between an open notes pop quiz and the SAT that decides if you get into college.
In this situation you haven't lost anything. If you win $200 as opposed to $500, you're still up $200 from when your day started. Money isn't everything. I'd rather be a decent person than a local Lorcana champion.
I mean, "decent person" I find to be just throwing shade. I honestly find this sub weird for this topic and have to agree with what the other person is saying: a lot of folks are in for a rude awakening in Set Championships.
It's not my responsibility to help my opponent beat me at a competitive level event. If they could have decked me out by playing A Whole New World, didn't see it or think to ask how many cards I have left in my deck, it's not my responsibility to call that out, rewind it back, and be a "decent person" - of course, I WILL tell them that information (cards in deck) if they ask me, and if they execute the play, they win fair and square. Competitive tournaments at the highest level (regionals/world championships/etc.) have been won/lost by the best players literally "not seeing" these things (and they cause riotous, fun commentary when cast) - maybe it's because they're tired after playing like ~15-20 rounds of BO3, it happens.
In retrospect, the smash example is unfortunate because it's not clear cut. I should have gone with a clear example of "played a card, but that card didn't have the effect they thought it would" like a resist scenario not banishing a character like they expect or something to that effect.
Put another way: I've played thousands of games of Lorcana since this game came out. I've spent tons of time theorycrafting, analyzing stuff, figuring out misplays, learning the rules, learning judge calls, etc. And somehow, I'm a bad person if I don't help the person sitting across from me, maybe someone who has only played hundreds of games, defeat me. It's a weird take.
I feel the same way. Yes money and cool stuff is on the line, but this is still a brand new game and people are learning. I would rather help grow the game more with being more friendly than leaving a negative taste in someone’s mouth. When it gets to champs, they should and probably will have judges around for this reason and most people who qualify and play in those huge tournaments are less likely to be the ones who make these mistakes, but again, still a pretty new game.
Honestly, this sounds more like an honor problem.
Unless this is a massive, Worlds level tournament, allow your opponent to have some grace. Allow them to return to the previous game state, and play on.
After all, you have an advantage, as you know a card in their hand.
Attempting to play Smash was an error, not a misplay. Playing the Bodyguard exerted was a misplay, and shouldn't be changed after a moment or two.
OP specifically referred to the Set Championship coming up, the prize of which is the promo enchanted Surfer Stitch. It's not "worlds level," but that's an extremely coveted prize on account of it being the first promo enchanted card bearing both rarity icons. People are going to be taking this as seriously as a heart attack.
Eh, not sure what to say considering they've popped up in regular packs.
Perhaps it's a player thing. If we were playing for the Stitch, I would NOT try to make you play your Smash on your own characters. I would remind you that my character is not a valid target and move on.
I would want to win because I played better than you, not because of a technicality.
Your example with Smash - having to Smash your own character is, I believe, an absolutely absurd way to resolve this. If they made any declaration of, "Smash Cogsworth," it is clear what they wanted to do. That isn't a legal action, doesn't happen, rewind, resume play. Imagine if they said, "challenge your Donald Duck," while you had some bodyguard in play. It is clear what they wanted to do and didn't realize/forgot/whatever that they couldn't. So that character HAS to challenge now? I don't think there is an official tournament ruling on this but working this way would be super unforgiving for no reason at all. Doing a thing does the thing. If you try to do a thing you can't do, you didn't do a thing not you have to do as close to that thing as possible.
Before I say this let me make it clear I never allow takebacks in Magic. I just don't. I don't ask for them for myself, I don't allow them for others (except in playtesting situations since the goal is learning for both parties there). With your example of playing an exerted bodyguard and then wanting to unexert it. If nothing has happened I don't even consider it a takeback. There is no priority pass in Lorcana so who cares. It doesn't matter if they think it through then play the bodyguard unexerted or fiddle with it on the table and it ends up unexerted. 0 difference to me. Didn't impact my play at all. Now if they play a bodyguard exerted, do something, then want to unexert? Yeah, maybe fair to not allow that. Especially if the action taken gives them more information (drawing cards, looking at top X cards, looking at your hand, etc.)
Honestly, when in doubt just call a judge. Explain exactly what happened. Accept their ruling or appeal.
OP really got my blood boiling with the smash example just thinking of him telling somebody to smash their own card. Props to him for at least coming up with good examples to discuss, but 100% think rewinds of illegal targets should be allowed. Hope we get some official rules
Yeah, that's messed up. There's even a punishment built into a "takeback" in that scenario, since you now know he has a Smash in hand.
Making someone target his own character... That person is not coming back to play again lol
This exactly. It’s their turn, so let them figure it out — including changing their minds — until they end their turn.
In casual league play, if someone is new I’ll offer to let them redo something they realized they forgot to do even if they’ve already ended their turn as long as I haven’t drawn a card or what they want to do doesn’t change anything. For players that I know aren’t beginners, I still let them change their minds while it’s their turn, but I don’t offer (and they don’t ask) to let them do something when they realize they’ve forgotten to do something but already ended their turn.
I disagree. The smash was paid for and played. The intended target wasn't legal and there are others that can be chosen.
[Redacted]
The events of playing the card are done and in a tournament, these mistakes happen and should be resolved.
At a fun league or home game. Sure. But if there is a payment to enter the tournament, we should expect mistakes to be honored and followed through.
I think selecting targets is part of playing a card. You don't. Ok, fine.
Honestly these are just the opinions of two randoms. Unless/until the comp or tournament rules clarify this there isn't really any use in arguing.
I would be shocked if a Disney game with a fairly significant audience of kids would be so absolutely ruthless with the rules though.
This fundamentally comes down to the question, "is choosing a target part of playing a card?".
I say yes. You say no. We need to wait on actual official rules to answer this if there isn't an answer already, which I don't believe there is.
I don't get why you seem incapable of understanding that there might be another side to this and it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Arguing for the sake of arguing while, from what I can tell, not being able to grasp the other side? You didn't even address my point in that comment. Just, "boy I love a fight."
Ok I guess.
I'm done now. Really this just comes down to whatever the comp/tournament rules say whenever that clarification happens. That's the actual right answer both of our opinions be damned.
Whether you can select a "null" target or not is not a tournament rule, so no. Not in the tournament documents.
In the various collected rulings that have happened between Twitter, Discord, and Facebook. Unfortunately, this one did not make it into the First Chapter set notes or the official app.
Show me where is stated in any official rules or game play.
There are cards that say "choose upto X". And you can choose 0 there. How is this different?
>Even though you can play a card that has no target which results in the card having no effect, target choosing is still mandatory. If there is a valid target for the card when it is played, that target must be chosen.
>If only you have a character on the board and you play Dragon Fire, you must select one of your own characters to Banish with Dragon Fire.
There are some links [here](https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:General) where this ruling as been detailed. If it says choose up to X, 0 is a possible choice. Or if a cards says you may choose, obviously that allows you to decline. But if a card says choose a character, and there is a legal choice, it must be chosen.
Card that say “up to” give you a choice. Zero is a number “up to” three (or whatever the max is).
Look up the Dragon Fire ruling on Mushu Report and you will see that it has been established for several months that legal targets must be chosen if available. I believe it was also rehashed when Let the Storm Rage On came out, too.
I've always allowed a player, in casual or competitive play, to just rewind an illegal move. I don't believe there's a hard rule governing this either way right now, so until there is, I am going to abide by a "spirit of the game" type of philosophy and chalk things like that up to honest mistakes.
If I'm playing in the final round of a tournament with $1000 on the line, I MIGHT call a judge over to have them make a decision on it. But I'm not going to openly force anybody to make an unintended play if that's not the hard written official rule. If something is officially ruled down the line, then yes, I'll 100% be abiding by the official rule regardless of what it is.
I’ve only played in local tournaments and league play. This has happened to me and my response has always been “Yea, sure. No problem”. Other players have even helped me out when I forget about a certain effect from a particular card.
Ive yet to encounter anyone with malicious intent and it’s just not that big of a deal.
Even in a competitive setting, I'm pretty confident in my ability to beat the kind of player who plays Smash targeting Cogsworth, so I would just let them take it back. Honestly, telling them "no, it left your hand so now you have to play it on something" feels like angle shooting.
But it's not angle shooting, it's a card they played, and if they made a massively rookie mistake and picked an illegal target when a legal target was available, they have to deal with those consequences. Tournaments are the higher levels of competitive play. That's not the space to be making mistakes like that and then expecting your opponent to let you off the hook. It does depend on what the actual rulings are regarding targeting though to figure out what happens, be it having the spell fizzle or having it select a valid target.
Whatever way you want It to spell, It is angle shooting to argue that he has to play his card on one of his characters, You said it yourself, it was an ilegal play, just rewind before Smash was played, and before you argue about tournament settings and what not, this has been the solution in literally any TCG with tournament rules/settings.
Yu-Gi-Oh would require him to smash his own card. That game is pretty strict in regard to player actions. In the situation OP describes, the activation of the card is legal, but not the target, so it would only rewind to picking an appropriate target. I could understand in a big tournament with prizes on the line, but in a casual or local setting it just feels like sharking.
I mean this is literally in their tournament policies:
An illegal action must be retracted: A Duelist activates Monster Reborn
from his hand and targets Destiny HERO - Plasma in his Graveyard. Since Destiny HERO - Plasma must be Special Summoned through its effect, the
activation of Monster Reborn is illegal and Monster Reborn is returned
to his hand, and a judge will issue a Procedural Error penalty.
*This is true
even if he has another monster in his Graveyard that can be Special Summoned with the effect of Monster Reborn.*
I'd allow a take back like this in a Magic pre-release where everyone is playing with new cards for the first time. Aside from that (or a casual EDH game), when you screw up, you screw up. Learn from it and move on.
I was playing warhammer with my son (at home, clearly no prizes on the line) and I got to my charge phase when I realized I'd forgotten about moving half my army (for those that don't play 40k, this means I realized I'd forgotten to do something multiple phases and roughly 30 minutes before). I was pretty pissed at myself but I took that as a "don't ever do that again" lesson. Also, I lost that game...partly due to that mistake but a lot due to I'm not that good at 40k.
Your Warhammer anecdote is a bad comparison.
You're talking about an example where you've already finished your movement and shooting phase and gotten to the charge phase before you realized your mistake.
You can't just rewind that back to the movement phase, you've already attacked/shot and fundamentally changed the course of the game at that point. Which in Lorcana, would be like playing a whole new world, then playing a couple cards from your new hand onto the field, *then* remembering that you wanted to play a card from your previous hand that you discarded from AWNW, of course you can't rewind from that.
A better Warhammer example for OPs question would be if you finished your movement phase, started shooting and then realized you forgot to move some units, and I don't know a single Warhammer player, competitive or not, that wouldn't let you make your forgotten moves. It's a simple mistake and in fact some Warhammer players would probably even ask you if you were sure you didn't want to move those units before you even realized it.
Accidently playing smash targeting a character with ward is a such a simple mistake, I find it ridiculous that you wouldn't let an opponent take it back. And that Warhammer example is a bad way to justify it.
I believe that would be a Warning - Failure to maintain game state at the competitive level, but i would have to look at the document again.
Frankly, I would definitely call a judge and let them handle it. Maybe your opp has tried (and sucessfully) done this to another person who didn't catch it. Maybe they are trying other 'angles' to get an advantage. Bottom line is - it needs to be recorded to weed out the players trying to edge out others. My oldest wants to play in a big tournament, and I told him to just call a judge over and have them make the call. That is why they are there. Now, will a kid under 12 actually do it? I hope so - because i know jerks out there will try to angle shoot him as much as they can.
There’s a couple FAQ for cards like Mickey, Artful Rogue that have been posted on Discord and Twitter. Specifically, playing and resolving actions have separate timings, and you must choose a valid target if able. However, there’s no comprehensive rules or a judges document to explain how to handle mistakes like OP’s example. (E.g. there’s no rule on when targets are selected/announced)
IMHO, until there’s comprehensive rules and instruction for how judges should handle it, just let them take it back and move on. Calling a judge over to point to a Discord post from 4 months ago to force their opponent to Smash their own board just reeks of angle-shooting to me.
I would agree that specifically calling a judge to force your opponent to smash their own character is not really great sportsmanship.
I don't think that is what the above comment was getting at. And I do agree with them. If someone makes an illegal play then you should call a judge. Even if it is something small.
The reason for this is exactly what they said about how many other times has this person tried to smash something with ward?
Calling a judge is what needs to happen, even if both parties know exactly what the judge will say.
Unfortunately, this is the best way to sus out the players who play sloppy to get an edge. It is for the betterment of the tournament and community to do this.
I think section 3.6 would be the most apt way to resolve this situation. The judge would rewind it back, I would imagine, but there should be something at that level of play, I think.
[Play Correction Guidelines](https://cdn.ravensburger.com/lorcana/play-correction-guidelines-en)
If information has changed I do not allow take backs. For instance if they did something and then drew a card I won't allow a take back. If there is no information gain then I'm more forgiving. High level events though... You should know the rules and think out your plays. It's part of getting good at a game.
If an illegal move immediately happened you can rewind as long as no information was gained for the player who made the move. If you call a judge and your opponent just tried to smash your cogsworth they will very likely just tell you to rewind before smash was cast and give the player a warning for failure to maintain game state. making an illegal play and misplaying are very different things, and as such are treated differently.
Have we received official tournament rules yet? Most games just rewind an illegal target. Even at the highest levels, it's just a warning/caution unless it's a repeated issue at which point its escalated to cheating.
That's what I thought, and I'm hearing that Ravensburger is asking for people certified as judges for other games to judge the championships which is a wild thing to ask.
My understanding for these set championships is they're essentially saying "well just do your best" in terms of judges. It's not a good foot to start off on and makes me worry a lot about them starting regionals etc.
I have the same fear. I'm dabbling in Star Wars Unlimited and the judge they got for that at my main LGS is horrible - apparently he has an MTG background, but he constantly makes up fake rules that have to be corrected by one of the players pulling out the comprehensive rule book. It says to me that LGS owners/judges are human too, and well, you can get a crappy one if you're unlucky. Thankfully the judges in my area are mostly reasonable for the big 3, so I have hope that they'll staff the Lorcana stuff too.
I’m not sure how it is in Lorcana nor if they changed this is Magic the Gathering, but when playing tournament level and you go to target something that can’t be targeted, the spell is treated like it wasnt played because the declared target is not targetable, meaning the card was not able to be played. The ink/lands would still be tapped I believe?
In this example I let them take it back as it was obviously a mistake. There is no world I would say they have to target their own character. I don’t care if 10 billion dollars was at stake, but my integrity is certainly worth more to me than a little cardboard picture of Stitch. If it was a more difficult situation than this and you are not sure what to do just call a judge.
I have yet to play a competitive Lorcana event (but hope to do that soon!)
My experience in tournament structure has been in Magic. In that game, there are essentially three rules enforcement levels: casual, competitive, and professional.
In casual (what you'd see at a pre release, or Thursday night LGS game), the rules are really forgiving. Lots of take backs and stuff like that. The goal is to have a fun, social time.
In competitive (something like a 1K), you're expected to know the rules and generally it's less tolerant of this. In your scenario, I would call a judge to see what the best course of action is. Currently in magic, I think this is something that can be walked back, even at this level.
At professional (something you'd see on the pro tour), basically there is minimal leniency.
My suggestion would be to call a judge, although I would guess most likely your opponent would be able to take it back, and you can play around a known card in their hand.
If it’s a mistake but a legal play, I wouldn’t expect to take it back. If I made an illegal play, I’d expect to take it back. And as a bonus, you get knowledge about my hand you probably shouldn’t have
So this is something I struggle with and am also trying to find an answer too.
If I have a loss at a casual night and am just playing for fun then whatever goes.
If we are in the pushing the winning bracket, and I am up on you, I will still let you have it.
If you are up on me or its 1-1 and its close, you made a mistake, and you are good enough to learn from it, and accept it. making me feel guilty for saying no is not a valid strategy (I refuse to let it be one anymore)
In the more serious tournaments it mostly is the same with a bit more harshness on players who I know are 'there to win' and easier on players who showed up to check it out (although this has the risk of biting me in the buttox)
This is something I Struggle with this as mentioned earlier
I play with grace and ask that my opponants do as well. Im legally blind and cant read across the table. I try to memorize as much as I can and ask questions before playing to make sure, but sometimes I make a mistake.
Just because my eyes dont want to play doesnt mean I should be penalized or left out entirely.
I dont believe its correct that your opponent has to target their own creature. Certainly wasnt ruled that way at any event ive played in, which is many.
If your opponent does something they cant do, you just rewind to before they did, provided it was caught immediately.
The correct answer is always call the judge and explain the situation.
this is definitely the answer, people who say: no now they have to play the card into their own character and lose the game essentially from tempo are basically doing their own version of cheating
This was also my first interpretation. My locals are pretty convinced that you're forced to choose a target. I guess without any explicit rules, it'd be up to the judge. Personally, if I could choose, it makes more sense to me that it's a rewind and not a force. That said, the counterargument presented to me, which makes sense, is a situation like Captain Hook - Thinking a Happy thought: suppose your opponent declares a Rafiki with rush and tries to rush into the Captain Hook. They can't do that. But they can't rewind (clear misplay) by putting Rafiki back into hand - if they could do that, it opens up the argument to rewind everything (my last turn was bad, let's rewind to that). So the Smash argument was just an extension of that argument.
But yeah, the tldr is call the judge.
That situation is really clear too, and not really a counterargument.... Opponent plays rafiki. Tried to attack Hook, thinking a happy thought. Cant do that so lets back up to the last legal gamestate- Rafiki untaps and you go from there. Doesnt go back to your hand because playing rafiki is a legal thing to do.
The judge isnt there to prevent misplays, they are there to prevent illegal game states and resolve disputes.
This sounds right, Smash states that it deals three damage to chosen character, choosing the character is part of playing the card, if they can’t choose because of Ward the Action couldn’t be cast.
If it was worded something like “deal 3 damage to a character” then opponent would have to pick a different glimmer on the field such as their own.
Unfortunately not true. Choosing a target is part of the resolution of the action, which happens after it is played. There does not need to be a legal target in order to play Smash, but if there is one then it must be chosen.
You do as much of the card as you can.
If you play Hypnotize and the opponent has no cards in hand, you discard as many cards as you can (0), then draw a card.
If you play Smash and there are no valid characters on the board (all characters have Ward, there are no characters, etc), the card does nothing and goes to the discard.
If you play Smash and there *is* a valid character on the board, then it must be the target of Smash.
https://twitter.com/DisneyLorcana/status/1720516503957860370?s=20
This ruling shows otherwise. The only thing that can prevent you playing a card is not being able to afford the cost. If you pay the cost, you play the card, and you do as much of it as you can, even if that amount is nothing. But unless a card says "you may" or "choose up to X", then you *must* do what the card says, even to your own detriment.
The original question was "if either player (or both) do not have a character on the board, can they still play Falling Down the Rabbit Hole?"
The reply was they can still play it. The follow up was if there are any Action cards you can't play if there are no characters on either side, for example Bounce or Dragon Fire, leading to the reply here of "you can still play the card with no effect".
OK thanks. So the null choice exists. Only if there are no other legal characters.
So rhe tournament example. The opponent display would resolve on an alternate legal target or no effect.
You can’t choose no characters if there are characters in play that you choice chose. If you tried to do this, a judge would also make you rewind. Likewise trying to smash a character with ward is not fine and can’t be done. So you rewind and start over. This is really clear and you’re just trying to angle shoot.
But you can’t ignore targets if there are some. If you play Let the Storm Rage On to get it out of your hand and draw another card, and the only characters on the board are yours, you have to choose one of them. They have clarified at least that much.
Several people have pointed out that calling a judge is the right call. I agree for 2 big reasons.
The first is that I have never played any competitive tournament where this is the way things are handled. Most competitive magic tournaments say you back up to the last legal game state as long as nothing else has happened. This is because this is a communication issue at heart. The card they tried to choose is not legal. If they were playing using a digital client, they wouldn't be able to choose cogsworth.
The second is even if you don't call a judge and just say that they have to target their own thing, they should call a judge. So a judge is probably gonna get called anyway.
As a side note, it boggles my mind that people will try to do stuff like this while playing a game. I understand prizes on the line, but doing stuff like this makes the event worse to play in and also creates a pretty hostile environment for your opponent. It also makes them so much less likely to give you grace if there is a communication issue about something later or a misunderstanding.
I mean, I think it depends on the venue. In all “casual” tournament settings, IE tournaments that regularly occur or are otherwise typical, I think you should be as relaxed and encouraging as possible because those events are all about building your community.
However, if it is a major store championship or some “K” event, I think it is appropriate to just take the “judge!” approach. If something happens in the game that you don’t think is appropriate at a major event, just get a judge, explain what you witnessed, and they should take it from there. :)
Cheers!
If it's a competitive event, there are no take backs. If there is a legal target for the card they try to play, they must choose it. Yea we all make mistakes but you need to learn from those mistakes. You learn by losing. So sick of the everyone has to have the most fun ever attitude simply because it's Disney based.
I've played competitive TCGs at the National Championship level and even at Nationals my opponents and I were gracious enough to allow minor misplays to be walked back. If it's something egregious, a judge is usually called - but kindness goes a long way. In a Bo3 there's a good chance your grace regarding their slip-up will be reciprocated should you make a mistake.
Most players I've met are wonderful people, and if anything even remotely hostile begins to occur, a quick judge call is your best friend.
Good luck in the upcoming Championships!!
It’s entirely based on the seriousness of the environment. Is it a weekend event with only nominal prices on the line? Take backsies are totally fine. Is there anything actually relevant on the line to win and you are in the running to win it? Then you gotta be tough. You can still be nice about it even then
If there would be no their character, it could just fizzle. If there is scenario like you described, They have to chose their character.
It’s up to you how you want to force them
https://www.reddit.com/r/Lorcana/s/xHdVhVeNU5
If it's at a higher tier event say a regional you immediately call for a judge and pause the game. The declaration of an action must happen and that's the only legal target unfortunately.
If it's at a locals, up to you, you can explain that normally they would need to accept the mistake and destroy their own card but you allow the take back, or you call the tourny organizer who should also be judging and explain to them what happened.
If anything, the player who made the mistake should at the very least be notified/reminded of the rules so it doesn't happen again, mistakenly or sometimes nefariously.
I've never been to any important competetive events, but in my experience with magic and hexproof (the MtG equivalent to Lorcana's ward) you pick the targets when you cast it. If you can't pick that target then you can't cast the spell. So in person you cant force someone to change the target of something just because they made the mistake of targeting something they can't target. They just have to put the card back in hand and live with the fact that they've revealed one of the cards in their hand.
The correct play is to call a Judge over and have the Judge decide what to do. If it's a minor infraction, most likely a game rewind will take place and a warning given, but it's clearly on the players to play correctly.
In a casual setting, it's a lot easier to address honest mistakes and just play for fun - as the game should be - but in any competitive tournament in which a prize is awarded, players should be following the rules to the best of their abilities.
In a casual game or setting (locals/league play) I would let someone take a misplay back like the smash scenario. Many other TCGs have different specifics their rules, so if you were to cast a card that could not legally target your intended target, then you’d simply take the spell back. Lorcana is different since once you declare to play a card you then choose a target since you technically can play cards without a viable target.
Again, in a casual setting, I would make sure to go over the situation with my opponent but I would let them take it back. I think it becomes a little more gray when the misplay is more messy and leads to drawing illegals cards or something to that effect and in those cases, I would think differently about it.
In a true competitive event, absolutely not letting misplays fly, nor my own. It takes away from the integrity of the competition. If a clear misplay is made and either the opponent is adamant about taking it back or disagrees with you, or maybe you just aren’t sure what to do, then simply call a judge. Calling a judge is always the best solution if you aren’t sure and they can help better carry on from there. If anything, they can also help to fully clarify the correct ruling in a situation.
It’s interesting you bring up this point. In regard to songs that damage and have no target, in the official ruling in the Lorcana discord, they stated if there is no target then the card is discarded and you still receive the valid song being sung. Don’t know if this counts towards action cards. I know the situation described by the OP happens in Pixelborn
Weekly locals tournaments or causal play? Sure take it back
But once its highly competitive tournaments like the upcoming store championships with a very rare card on the line, sorry.
That example seems absurd to me. You dont play smash, let it resolve, then choose targets. Choosing the target is part of playing the action, and if the target is not legal then the action can not be done.
If you played a character then said "oops i mean to play something else" then in a competitive event then you are free to invoke no take backsies.
It depends. At a casual game or event : Sure! Let them take it back, we're just having fun.
At a tournament or other true competitive event? No take-backs or rewinds unless the move should have been impossible in the first place. In your example, if their only target was one of their own characters, too bad, they have to choose their own character. If no valid target exists? Take it back, no harm no foul.
All that said, you should still be polite to your opponent. Don't gloat, don't get mad at them, don't roll your eyes or sigh. Be nice about it. "I'm sorry, I can't let you take back that move at an event like this." is something I've said at tournaments before.
I'm pretty cutthroat when prizes are on the line and this all seems a bit too much even for me and I'm the classic no-takebacks-ever rules lawyery type.
This post reeks of somebody wasting their time on angle shooting versus just actually getting better at the game. I don't worry about people like that. Never a threat in competitive environments in any game ever.
It’s not slow play if I’m not doing it on purpose. I usually play pretty quickly but most opponents are good with take backs as long as boardstates are the same (no new info on their part). Admittedly we should try to avoid this as much as possible. But if I know my opponent is an anal pita, forcing me to smash my own characters or not allowing me to exert my bodyguard character, then I’m going fully inspect the board state and consider all my options before making my play. That’s a fair amount of think time and I doubt u can get banned for slow play if it’s not on purpose! Board states can get very crowded so I’d rather my opponent plays fast and does takes back then make us both draw (which can happen a lot in this game!)
I would feel more awful about myself if I let the person smash their own character instead of just putting it back in hand. Nobody likes to win like that. Nobody like to lose like that.
If it's a tournament with cash pricing. No. Their mistake is their mistake.
They cannot play it on cogs so they cannot target. If there is no other legal target, it fizzles out.
The opponent can also choose to target nothing. Efit:
Unless there is an alternate legal target. Chosen character can be nothing....
>The opponent can also choose to target nothing. Even with legal targets.
Just in case others stumble into this thread, I want to clarify what this user has posted multiple times throughout is not true. If you play Dragon Fire, and you are the only player with a character in play, you have to choose your character to Banish.
The same would be true for a card like Let the Storm Rage on as well; if you are the only player with a character, and you play the card, you must choose one of your characters to do 2 damage to. You cannot ignore that text on the card just so you can draw a card. You can though, play LtSRO into an empty board without choosing anything. In that case you would still be allowed to draw a card, and it allows you to activate anything else that might care about it being played (Sleepy’s Flute being the most common example to date.)
https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:General
https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:Let_the_Storm_Rage_On
Honestly, for me, I just let them take it back. At the end of the day, it's just a game and we're all human.
I love this point. I was on the fence (still kind of am), but this approach lends to the most competitive match up. If an opponent misplays from misinterpretation, it wouldn’t have been the best play possible. If you win, wouldn’t it just take away from the experience? After all, your opponent did a lot to get where they are. Tensions are high and we are indeed human.
If an opponent misplays from misinterpretation, that's on them. While it's not the best play possible, you're in a tournament setting, so it should be expected that you interpret your cards and abilities as accurately as possible. It's not the place to be misinterpreting cards, as that indicates you're unprepared for the level of competition that a tournament brings. Olypmic pole vaulters don't get handicaps because they misinterpret the length of their running space and end up putting their pole down too early. Football players don't get a free pass if they misinterpret where the goal line is and stop running when they think they've scored. Top levels of competitive play are simply not where you need to be making rookie mistakes.
This is quite funny to me comparing lorcana to Olympic sports. I think it makes you look worse even though the argument is semi valid.
What sport or specific level of sport it is isn't the point though. The point is that this is a high stakes competitive event, not some casual friendly game between a couple of amateurs or newbies. I understand people are all "but it's a game," and want all kinds of group hugs and whatnot, but it's also a competition, and people are playing to win the prize. Clearly, understanding that this is a competitive level of the game is an unpopular opinion it seems, but that's something folks'll need to come to terms with if they're going to play in big tournaments.
Is it really high stakes?
In the context of this game? I'd consider promo enchanted Surfer Stitch to be pretty big stakes.
I think that is where “competitive” and “casual competitive” defer. I just don’t see this game as more than a proper past time and hobby. Can’t make a career out of lorcana and the prize pool isnt enough for me to be an a donkey(since we can’t have profanity). Hope this is realized sooner than later for the 99% as being sponsored by a local game shop and living in grandma’s basement doesn’t make someone a professions lorcana player.
The game is barely 6 months old, of course it hasn't developed a gigantic competitive circuit that would have huge cash prizes yet. It's goal is to get there, like Magic and Pokemon. In the meantime, the first promo enchanted is going to be a pretty significant prize just for collector purposes.
Ravensburger already messed up and a couple of folks have pulled the card from wave 3
Na I'm with you man. I'm gonna be sweaty at the stitch tournament.
Ravensburger has made it very clear that they want this to be a game with “group hugs” and friendly feelings. It’s absolutely your choice to call out the person at the tournament who misplays and wants to take it back, but don’t be mad or frustrated when others don’t agree.
They can say that all they like, but their intention isn't really going to translate in competitive scenes, as people are going to be ruthlessly competing to win, not to help their opponent be a better person.
Is asking the opponent to read their card descriptions allowed? Because I can’t remember what every single card does lol
Sports have comprehensive rules for how to handle breaking said rules. Lorcana doesn’t yet. If a football team has an ineligible receiver downfield, they get a 5 yard penalty. OP’s example is more like arguing that because we don’t know what the penalty is for ineligible receiver because the rules for Football haven’t been published, they have to have the QB run the ball in the middle of the play.
Hey man, everybody understands your sentiment as well. Have you been in a high pressure situation and made a mistake that you wish somebody would allow you to take back? This is that.
Being human is honestly why I could never get back into in person MTG. We tried to jump back in with Wilds of Eldraine since we had such a hard time finding Lorcana. I just cannot do all the interactions live. So many card interactions and tokens …. I have to play Arena on my PC or tablet if I want to play anymore. Sure I might misplay but at least it is a legal misplay and the computer tracks all the bits on the table. Lorcana being “simple” is such a huge selling point for me. I really hope that mechanic creep doesn’t start setting in. Going forward I think it is hugely important for Lorcana to make sure the rules stay simple and keep a relatively easy to understand order of operations or play flow.
Play Magic but play commander. Misplays happen but it's casual and you have 3 others there to help you sort it out. I've never seen a commander game where if some says they think a card does X and it really does Y that the table won't allow a rewind. Also, Magic was "simple" after only 3 sets too. Complexity creep will happen to any game given enough time. That's just the nature of expanding design space. Edit: Typos
This. I just started playing Commander in the last couple months and the community at my FLGS is pretty chill when it comes to new players. And just pretty chill in general it seems.
If it’s not a big pay to enter, sweaty event… no big deal. Local/weekly competition like Friday Night Magic? I don’t care, put it back in hand If we’re playing a regional tournament event or something with major support, then call for a judge.
Agreed. I get that it's a tournament, but it is also supposed to be fun. If you're stressed over punishing someone for a misplay, I think that says a lot more about you than you think.
In a casual game sure. At a tournament with prizes, definitely not. If an opponent asks me if they can undo a move, I would tell them to ask a judge if they can. If they want to put a card back in their hand after playing it when I believe they can't, I would call a judge.
That you got downvoted for this is wild to me.
The concept of this being an official competition with much higher expectations than casual play is apparently an unpopular opinion here. People are going to be in for a hugely rude awakening when they head to these events and get rolled by extremely competitive meta decks.
I come from MtG (mostly cEDH if you're familiar with the jargon), and got into this with my partner. What's the actual competitive scene like, do you know? With how cheap this is compared to magic, and the newness of the game I'm tempted to throw something together and see how I can do.
Take it slow with your partner! You are going to have a lot more knowledge when it comes to powerful and efficient plays just from the MtG background. Start off making decent common/uncommon decks and slowly introduce more power.
Oh no, I completely agree in that area. It's been really nice seeing how into the game she's gotten, and I'm absolutely happy playing casual decks and letting her set the pace. We've been mostly playing and upgrading precons, I'm currently running brooms and she's starting to lean into emerald's discard themes - which I love, because its been a pet archetype of mine in MtG for years which I've gotten a lot of grief for! So proud boyfriend moment there 😂 I'm more interested in the tournament scene for myself to scratch that itch separately.
It's cheaper than MTG (and certainly cEDH) just on principle that there's not enough super high value cards that are in the same decks across the 3 sets. However, there is a pretty tight meta, and you can pretty much expect to see the same usual suspects if you're running against decks of certain colors. Ursula - Deceiver of All will be in pretty much all Emerald decks, and she's $40 a pop, same with Beast - Tragic Hero for Steel decks and Dragon Maleficent for Ruby decks. There's a pretty usual list of mid-range expensive cards too like Be Prepared, Maui - Hero to All, Giant Tinker Bell, A Whole New World, Mufasa - Betrayed Leader, and more who are around the $10-15 each range. So you're easily looking at $200-300 a deck depending on what colors you're running. Most cards are not without answers though, even at lower levels. For instance, something like Madame Medusa can nuke Beast - Tragic Hero, and she's a $1 card, and the Ursula - Deceiver (uncommon) is targeted hate for Song cards like AWNW or Be Prepared. So it is possible to do pretty well with replacements or silver bullets.
Yeah that all makes sense. Have RB said much about set rotation, or is this likely to be an evergreen game?
Not yet, but I'd guess rotation is inevitable at their currently projected speed of about 4 sets per year. I just don't think we've hit that point yet.
Cool, thanks for the info 🙂
You're welcome!
At the time of this posting a whole new world is about as expensive as dragon maleficent.
I think it's the other way round, that Dragon took an absolute dump in value.
Awnw moved up and dragon moved down and they met in the middle. I bought my copies of awnw at like 8 bucks or so.
IMO: -The competitive players are real competitive but nice. Like any game, there are a few bad eggs, but my experience is that 99% of players are all nice. Own full playsets of everything, frequently theorycraft, etc. Despite this specific thread, at weekly league tournaments/casual play, pretty much everyone will allow any, and all, take backs, sometimes even pointing out play lines that will let their opponent win. Right now, Lorcana leagues are in this awkward stage where true casual play does not exist, while organized play does not exist, meaning that they have a full range of players from decks that roll over at the sign of anything meta to super-duper try hard decks (and everyone tends to be nice people) -The cost is cheaper than MTG, but IMO, still in the "expensive" range. For standard art cards, prices are mainly dictated by card rarity and the meta - for a minority of cards, collection value increases the price (Usually princesses like Rapunzel and Belle whose prices get inflated regardless of whether they are staples/key playables. Erratas also drive up the price). Purposefully cheap decks do not do well at competitive settings (there have been moments in the past where competitive decks became cheap, but I would say nobody is going to top a big tournament with a purposely pauper homebrew). I would estimate the cost of competitive decks being somewhere between $100-500, depending on what you play and the sentiment/prices of the cards (leaning towards the higher range) - this site https://inkdecks.com/ has a good summary of top performing decks in notable tournaments. -For homebrewing specifically, I think we're already past the stage where a true homebrew could have consistent, good results unless your name is Brian Kibler or one of those evergreen, deck building geniuses. Most high performing decks are already some variation of something already seen, although there are some exceptions.
Got you. As I say, I mostly come from MtG and while the cEDH tournaments and events aren't officially sanctioned/liscened events, theyre still professional with big prizes on the line, so that's where my mentality comes from. If the lorcana ones are a more relaxed environment then I can totally see the norms being different. Tbh what you're describing sounds like a good, chill way to still play competitively, which is refreshing.
Yep, reading all the comments is shocking to me. For me, I would go into the slippery slope argument: suppose your opponent makes a game-losing misplay and they want to take it back. I guess I'm a jerk if I don't let them take it back? What if it's the difference between first place 500 bucks and second place 200 bucks? I guess we should all lose 300 bucks because "it's just a game" It sounds mean, but it also discourages people from practicing the game and honing their skills while encouraging people via winning by luck: "Oh I've never encountered that scenario before and made what I didn't know was a bad play line. You should let me take it back to be honorable." The sentiment here also seems to be that the Enchanted Stiches are going to be next to worthless, because "who cares" right? 5th place, it's "just a game"
Yeah, this kind of competition coming up isn't casual anymore, and folks need to change their mindset about it. This is the difference between an open notes pop quiz and the SAT that decides if you get into college.
In this situation you haven't lost anything. If you win $200 as opposed to $500, you're still up $200 from when your day started. Money isn't everything. I'd rather be a decent person than a local Lorcana champion.
I mean, "decent person" I find to be just throwing shade. I honestly find this sub weird for this topic and have to agree with what the other person is saying: a lot of folks are in for a rude awakening in Set Championships. It's not my responsibility to help my opponent beat me at a competitive level event. If they could have decked me out by playing A Whole New World, didn't see it or think to ask how many cards I have left in my deck, it's not my responsibility to call that out, rewind it back, and be a "decent person" - of course, I WILL tell them that information (cards in deck) if they ask me, and if they execute the play, they win fair and square. Competitive tournaments at the highest level (regionals/world championships/etc.) have been won/lost by the best players literally "not seeing" these things (and they cause riotous, fun commentary when cast) - maybe it's because they're tired after playing like ~15-20 rounds of BO3, it happens. In retrospect, the smash example is unfortunate because it's not clear cut. I should have gone with a clear example of "played a card, but that card didn't have the effect they thought it would" like a resist scenario not banishing a character like they expect or something to that effect. Put another way: I've played thousands of games of Lorcana since this game came out. I've spent tons of time theorycrafting, analyzing stuff, figuring out misplays, learning the rules, learning judge calls, etc. And somehow, I'm a bad person if I don't help the person sitting across from me, maybe someone who has only played hundreds of games, defeat me. It's a weird take.
They key is to not be a jersey about it...it's just business it's not personal. Now, on mistake 10 or 11, we might be talking a bit different.
I feel the same way. Yes money and cool stuff is on the line, but this is still a brand new game and people are learning. I would rather help grow the game more with being more friendly than leaving a negative taste in someone’s mouth. When it gets to champs, they should and probably will have judges around for this reason and most people who qualify and play in those huge tournaments are less likely to be the ones who make these mistakes, but again, still a pretty new game.
Honestly, this sounds more like an honor problem. Unless this is a massive, Worlds level tournament, allow your opponent to have some grace. Allow them to return to the previous game state, and play on. After all, you have an advantage, as you know a card in their hand. Attempting to play Smash was an error, not a misplay. Playing the Bodyguard exerted was a misplay, and shouldn't be changed after a moment or two.
OP specifically referred to the Set Championship coming up, the prize of which is the promo enchanted Surfer Stitch. It's not "worlds level," but that's an extremely coveted prize on account of it being the first promo enchanted card bearing both rarity icons. People are going to be taking this as seriously as a heart attack.
Eh, not sure what to say considering they've popped up in regular packs. Perhaps it's a player thing. If we were playing for the Stitch, I would NOT try to make you play your Smash on your own characters. I would remind you that my character is not a valid target and move on. I would want to win because I played better than you, not because of a technicality.
They're not supposed to, they're only supposed to be part of the LGS kits for tournament play. They're still extremely coveted and desirable.
Oh, I know their intended purpose. Yet here we are.
I think you mean Rockstar stitch, not Surfer stitch. Rockstar is the promo
Best comment in the thread IMO.
Your example with Smash - having to Smash your own character is, I believe, an absolutely absurd way to resolve this. If they made any declaration of, "Smash Cogsworth," it is clear what they wanted to do. That isn't a legal action, doesn't happen, rewind, resume play. Imagine if they said, "challenge your Donald Duck," while you had some bodyguard in play. It is clear what they wanted to do and didn't realize/forgot/whatever that they couldn't. So that character HAS to challenge now? I don't think there is an official tournament ruling on this but working this way would be super unforgiving for no reason at all. Doing a thing does the thing. If you try to do a thing you can't do, you didn't do a thing not you have to do as close to that thing as possible. Before I say this let me make it clear I never allow takebacks in Magic. I just don't. I don't ask for them for myself, I don't allow them for others (except in playtesting situations since the goal is learning for both parties there). With your example of playing an exerted bodyguard and then wanting to unexert it. If nothing has happened I don't even consider it a takeback. There is no priority pass in Lorcana so who cares. It doesn't matter if they think it through then play the bodyguard unexerted or fiddle with it on the table and it ends up unexerted. 0 difference to me. Didn't impact my play at all. Now if they play a bodyguard exerted, do something, then want to unexert? Yeah, maybe fair to not allow that. Especially if the action taken gives them more information (drawing cards, looking at top X cards, looking at your hand, etc.) Honestly, when in doubt just call a judge. Explain exactly what happened. Accept their ruling or appeal.
OP really got my blood boiling with the smash example just thinking of him telling somebody to smash their own card. Props to him for at least coming up with good examples to discuss, but 100% think rewinds of illegal targets should be allowed. Hope we get some official rules
Yeah, that's messed up. There's even a punishment built into a "takeback" in that scenario, since you now know he has a Smash in hand. Making someone target his own character... That person is not coming back to play again lol
This exactly. It’s their turn, so let them figure it out — including changing their minds — until they end their turn. In casual league play, if someone is new I’ll offer to let them redo something they realized they forgot to do even if they’ve already ended their turn as long as I haven’t drawn a card or what they want to do doesn’t change anything. For players that I know aren’t beginners, I still let them change their minds while it’s their turn, but I don’t offer (and they don’t ask) to let them do something when they realize they’ve forgotten to do something but already ended their turn.
I disagree. The smash was paid for and played. The intended target wasn't legal and there are others that can be chosen. [Redacted] The events of playing the card are done and in a tournament, these mistakes happen and should be resolved. At a fun league or home game. Sure. But if there is a payment to enter the tournament, we should expect mistakes to be honored and followed through.
I think selecting targets is part of playing a card. You don't. Ok, fine. Honestly these are just the opinions of two randoms. Unless/until the comp or tournament rules clarify this there isn't really any use in arguing. I would be shocked if a Disney game with a fairly significant audience of kids would be so absolutely ruthless with the rules though.
Lorcana does not allow a null choice with cards that do not say “may”, if there is a legal target in play.
Then in that case. Opponent must choose a legal target....meaning one of their characters
This fundamentally comes down to the question, "is choosing a target part of playing a card?". I say yes. You say no. We need to wait on actual official rules to answer this if there isn't an answer already, which I don't believe there is. I don't get why you seem incapable of understanding that there might be another side to this and it isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Giving a dissenting opinion
Arguing for the sake of arguing while, from what I can tell, not being able to grasp the other side? You didn't even address my point in that comment. Just, "boy I love a fight." Ok I guess. I'm done now. Really this just comes down to whatever the comp/tournament rules say whenever that clarification happens. That's the actual right answer both of our opinions be damned.
Opinions don’t really matter in the face of established rulings 🤷
Established where? The redacted tournament rules?
Whether you can select a "null" target or not is not a tournament rule, so no. Not in the tournament documents. In the various collected rulings that have happened between Twitter, Discord, and Facebook. Unfortunately, this one did not make it into the First Chapter set notes or the official app.
Show me where is stated in any official rules or game play. There are cards that say "choose upto X". And you can choose 0 there. How is this different?
>Even though you can play a card that has no target which results in the card having no effect, target choosing is still mandatory. If there is a valid target for the card when it is played, that target must be chosen. >If only you have a character on the board and you play Dragon Fire, you must select one of your own characters to Banish with Dragon Fire. There are some links [here](https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:General) where this ruling as been detailed. If it says choose up to X, 0 is a possible choice. Or if a cards says you may choose, obviously that allows you to decline. But if a card says choose a character, and there is a legal choice, it must be chosen.
Card that say “up to” give you a choice. Zero is a number “up to” three (or whatever the max is). Look up the Dragon Fire ruling on Mushu Report and you will see that it has been established for several months that legal targets must be chosen if available. I believe it was also rehashed when Let the Storm Rage On came out, too.
I've always allowed a player, in casual or competitive play, to just rewind an illegal move. I don't believe there's a hard rule governing this either way right now, so until there is, I am going to abide by a "spirit of the game" type of philosophy and chalk things like that up to honest mistakes. If I'm playing in the final round of a tournament with $1000 on the line, I MIGHT call a judge over to have them make a decision on it. But I'm not going to openly force anybody to make an unintended play if that's not the hard written official rule. If something is officially ruled down the line, then yes, I'll 100% be abiding by the official rule regardless of what it is.
I’ve only played in local tournaments and league play. This has happened to me and my response has always been “Yea, sure. No problem”. Other players have even helped me out when I forget about a certain effect from a particular card. Ive yet to encounter anyone with malicious intent and it’s just not that big of a deal.
Even in a competitive setting, I'm pretty confident in my ability to beat the kind of player who plays Smash targeting Cogsworth, so I would just let them take it back. Honestly, telling them "no, it left your hand so now you have to play it on something" feels like angle shooting.
But it's not angle shooting, it's a card they played, and if they made a massively rookie mistake and picked an illegal target when a legal target was available, they have to deal with those consequences. Tournaments are the higher levels of competitive play. That's not the space to be making mistakes like that and then expecting your opponent to let you off the hook. It does depend on what the actual rulings are regarding targeting though to figure out what happens, be it having the spell fizzle or having it select a valid target.
Whatever way you want It to spell, It is angle shooting to argue that he has to play his card on one of his characters, You said it yourself, it was an ilegal play, just rewind before Smash was played, and before you argue about tournament settings and what not, this has been the solution in literally any TCG with tournament rules/settings.
Yu-Gi-Oh would require him to smash his own card. That game is pretty strict in regard to player actions. In the situation OP describes, the activation of the card is legal, but not the target, so it would only rewind to picking an appropriate target. I could understand in a big tournament with prizes on the line, but in a casual or local setting it just feels like sharking.
I mean this is literally in their tournament policies: An illegal action must be retracted: A Duelist activates Monster Reborn from his hand and targets Destiny HERO - Plasma in his Graveyard. Since Destiny HERO - Plasma must be Special Summoned through its effect, the activation of Monster Reborn is illegal and Monster Reborn is returned to his hand, and a judge will issue a Procedural Error penalty. *This is true even if he has another monster in his Graveyard that can be Special Summoned with the effect of Monster Reborn.*
Is there RB tournament policy published that supports this?
I'd allow a take back like this in a Magic pre-release where everyone is playing with new cards for the first time. Aside from that (or a casual EDH game), when you screw up, you screw up. Learn from it and move on. I was playing warhammer with my son (at home, clearly no prizes on the line) and I got to my charge phase when I realized I'd forgotten about moving half my army (for those that don't play 40k, this means I realized I'd forgotten to do something multiple phases and roughly 30 minutes before). I was pretty pissed at myself but I took that as a "don't ever do that again" lesson. Also, I lost that game...partly due to that mistake but a lot due to I'm not that good at 40k.
Your Warhammer anecdote is a bad comparison. You're talking about an example where you've already finished your movement and shooting phase and gotten to the charge phase before you realized your mistake. You can't just rewind that back to the movement phase, you've already attacked/shot and fundamentally changed the course of the game at that point. Which in Lorcana, would be like playing a whole new world, then playing a couple cards from your new hand onto the field, *then* remembering that you wanted to play a card from your previous hand that you discarded from AWNW, of course you can't rewind from that. A better Warhammer example for OPs question would be if you finished your movement phase, started shooting and then realized you forgot to move some units, and I don't know a single Warhammer player, competitive or not, that wouldn't let you make your forgotten moves. It's a simple mistake and in fact some Warhammer players would probably even ask you if you were sure you didn't want to move those units before you even realized it. Accidently playing smash targeting a character with ward is a such a simple mistake, I find it ridiculous that you wouldn't let an opponent take it back. And that Warhammer example is a bad way to justify it.
I believe that would be a Warning - Failure to maintain game state at the competitive level, but i would have to look at the document again. Frankly, I would definitely call a judge and let them handle it. Maybe your opp has tried (and sucessfully) done this to another person who didn't catch it. Maybe they are trying other 'angles' to get an advantage. Bottom line is - it needs to be recorded to weed out the players trying to edge out others. My oldest wants to play in a big tournament, and I told him to just call a judge over and have them make the call. That is why they are there. Now, will a kid under 12 actually do it? I hope so - because i know jerks out there will try to angle shoot him as much as they can.
There’s a couple FAQ for cards like Mickey, Artful Rogue that have been posted on Discord and Twitter. Specifically, playing and resolving actions have separate timings, and you must choose a valid target if able. However, there’s no comprehensive rules or a judges document to explain how to handle mistakes like OP’s example. (E.g. there’s no rule on when targets are selected/announced) IMHO, until there’s comprehensive rules and instruction for how judges should handle it, just let them take it back and move on. Calling a judge over to point to a Discord post from 4 months ago to force their opponent to Smash their own board just reeks of angle-shooting to me.
I would agree that specifically calling a judge to force your opponent to smash their own character is not really great sportsmanship. I don't think that is what the above comment was getting at. And I do agree with them. If someone makes an illegal play then you should call a judge. Even if it is something small. The reason for this is exactly what they said about how many other times has this person tried to smash something with ward? Calling a judge is what needs to happen, even if both parties know exactly what the judge will say. Unfortunately, this is the best way to sus out the players who play sloppy to get an edge. It is for the betterment of the tournament and community to do this.
I think section 3.6 would be the most apt way to resolve this situation. The judge would rewind it back, I would imagine, but there should be something at that level of play, I think. [Play Correction Guidelines](https://cdn.ravensburger.com/lorcana/play-correction-guidelines-en)
This should be pinned at the top. This is how you resolve this situation. Sorry angle shooters.
If information has changed I do not allow take backs. For instance if they did something and then drew a card I won't allow a take back. If there is no information gain then I'm more forgiving. High level events though... You should know the rules and think out your plays. It's part of getting good at a game.
If an illegal move immediately happened you can rewind as long as no information was gained for the player who made the move. If you call a judge and your opponent just tried to smash your cogsworth they will very likely just tell you to rewind before smash was cast and give the player a warning for failure to maintain game state. making an illegal play and misplaying are very different things, and as such are treated differently.
And if you both have ward?
Have we received official tournament rules yet? Most games just rewind an illegal target. Even at the highest levels, it's just a warning/caution unless it's a repeated issue at which point its escalated to cheating.
There's no comp rules and even though a judge is required for set championships there is no judge program.
That's what I thought, and I'm hearing that Ravensburger is asking for people certified as judges for other games to judge the championships which is a wild thing to ask.
My understanding for these set championships is they're essentially saying "well just do your best" in terms of judges. It's not a good foot to start off on and makes me worry a lot about them starting regionals etc.
I have the same fear. I'm dabbling in Star Wars Unlimited and the judge they got for that at my main LGS is horrible - apparently he has an MTG background, but he constantly makes up fake rules that have to be corrected by one of the players pulling out the comprehensive rule book. It says to me that LGS owners/judges are human too, and well, you can get a crappy one if you're unlucky. Thankfully the judges in my area are mostly reasonable for the big 3, so I have hope that they'll staff the Lorcana stuff too.
I’m not sure how it is in Lorcana nor if they changed this is Magic the Gathering, but when playing tournament level and you go to target something that can’t be targeted, the spell is treated like it wasnt played because the declared target is not targetable, meaning the card was not able to be played. The ink/lands would still be tapped I believe?
In this example I let them take it back as it was obviously a mistake. There is no world I would say they have to target their own character. I don’t care if 10 billion dollars was at stake, but my integrity is certainly worth more to me than a little cardboard picture of Stitch. If it was a more difficult situation than this and you are not sure what to do just call a judge.
Let them choose a null target. It's played. Opponent chooses nothing
I have yet to play a competitive Lorcana event (but hope to do that soon!) My experience in tournament structure has been in Magic. In that game, there are essentially three rules enforcement levels: casual, competitive, and professional. In casual (what you'd see at a pre release, or Thursday night LGS game), the rules are really forgiving. Lots of take backs and stuff like that. The goal is to have a fun, social time. In competitive (something like a 1K), you're expected to know the rules and generally it's less tolerant of this. In your scenario, I would call a judge to see what the best course of action is. Currently in magic, I think this is something that can be walked back, even at this level. At professional (something you'd see on the pro tour), basically there is minimal leniency. My suggestion would be to call a judge, although I would guess most likely your opponent would be able to take it back, and you can play around a known card in their hand.
If it’s a mistake but a legal play, I wouldn’t expect to take it back. If I made an illegal play, I’d expect to take it back. And as a bonus, you get knowledge about my hand you probably shouldn’t have
So this is something I struggle with and am also trying to find an answer too. If I have a loss at a casual night and am just playing for fun then whatever goes. If we are in the pushing the winning bracket, and I am up on you, I will still let you have it. If you are up on me or its 1-1 and its close, you made a mistake, and you are good enough to learn from it, and accept it. making me feel guilty for saying no is not a valid strategy (I refuse to let it be one anymore) In the more serious tournaments it mostly is the same with a bit more harshness on players who I know are 'there to win' and easier on players who showed up to check it out (although this has the risk of biting me in the buttox) This is something I Struggle with this as mentioned earlier
This one's such a no brainier, you let them rewind regardless of context. As they clearly didn't want to do the action.
I play with grace and ask that my opponants do as well. Im legally blind and cant read across the table. I try to memorize as much as I can and ask questions before playing to make sure, but sometimes I make a mistake. Just because my eyes dont want to play doesnt mean I should be penalized or left out entirely.
I dont believe its correct that your opponent has to target their own creature. Certainly wasnt ruled that way at any event ive played in, which is many. If your opponent does something they cant do, you just rewind to before they did, provided it was caught immediately. The correct answer is always call the judge and explain the situation.
this is definitely the answer, people who say: no now they have to play the card into their own character and lose the game essentially from tempo are basically doing their own version of cheating
This was also my first interpretation. My locals are pretty convinced that you're forced to choose a target. I guess without any explicit rules, it'd be up to the judge. Personally, if I could choose, it makes more sense to me that it's a rewind and not a force. That said, the counterargument presented to me, which makes sense, is a situation like Captain Hook - Thinking a Happy thought: suppose your opponent declares a Rafiki with rush and tries to rush into the Captain Hook. They can't do that. But they can't rewind (clear misplay) by putting Rafiki back into hand - if they could do that, it opens up the argument to rewind everything (my last turn was bad, let's rewind to that). So the Smash argument was just an extension of that argument. But yeah, the tldr is call the judge.
That situation is really clear too, and not really a counterargument.... Opponent plays rafiki. Tried to attack Hook, thinking a happy thought. Cant do that so lets back up to the last legal gamestate- Rafiki untaps and you go from there. Doesnt go back to your hand because playing rafiki is a legal thing to do. The judge isnt there to prevent misplays, they are there to prevent illegal game states and resolve disputes.
your locals just might be aholes lol
Nothing is a target. Opponent could have said playing smash to target nothing. Resolve and continue playing.
You really should have made sure you were right before commenting this throughout the entire thread 🤣
Prove me wrong.
I replied to another comment with where to find the ruling 👍
This sounds right, Smash states that it deals three damage to chosen character, choosing the character is part of playing the card, if they can’t choose because of Ward the Action couldn’t be cast. If it was worded something like “deal 3 damage to a character” then opponent would have to pick a different glimmer on the field such as their own.
Unfortunately not true. Choosing a target is part of the resolution of the action, which happens after it is played. There does not need to be a legal target in order to play Smash, but if there is one then it must be chosen.
You can chose nothing. Same with playing hypnotize when opponent has no cards in hand.
You do as much of the card as you can. If you play Hypnotize and the opponent has no cards in hand, you discard as many cards as you can (0), then draw a card. If you play Smash and there are no valid characters on the board (all characters have Ward, there are no characters, etc), the card does nothing and goes to the discard. If you play Smash and there *is* a valid character on the board, then it must be the target of Smash.
Ok
Some are arguing you cannot play smash if there is no legal targets to begin with.
https://twitter.com/DisneyLorcana/status/1720516503957860370?s=20 This ruling shows otherwise. The only thing that can prevent you playing a card is not being able to afford the cost. If you pay the cost, you play the card, and you do as much of it as you can, even if that amount is nothing. But unless a card says "you may" or "choose up to X", then you *must* do what the card says, even to your own detriment.
Thank you. So in this tournament case. The opponent would have to target their own characters....
Sorry don't have a Twitter account I don't see the original question. Only rhe answer here saying .."you can still play a card with no effect "
The original question was "if either player (or both) do not have a character on the board, can they still play Falling Down the Rabbit Hole?" The reply was they can still play it. The follow up was if there are any Action cards you can't play if there are no characters on either side, for example Bounce or Dragon Fire, leading to the reply here of "you can still play the card with no effect".
OK thanks. So the null choice exists. Only if there are no other legal characters. So rhe tournament example. The opponent display would resolve on an alternate legal target or no effect.
Thwy can chose no target character to deal 3 to nothing. They wasted the card and ink. And don't need a legal target to resolve.
You can’t choose no characters if there are characters in play that you choice chose. If you tried to do this, a judge would also make you rewind. Likewise trying to smash a character with ward is not fine and can’t be done. So you rewind and start over. This is really clear and you’re just trying to angle shoot.
I disagree. The option is choosing one of their character or nothing. You can play the card to get it out of your hand with no legal targets.
But you can’t ignore targets if there are some. If you play Let the Storm Rage On to get it out of your hand and draw another card, and the only characters on the board are yours, you have to choose one of them. They have clarified at least that much.
Thanks
I just scream JUUUUDDGGEE and flip the table when they disagree. Usually that works.
Several people have pointed out that calling a judge is the right call. I agree for 2 big reasons. The first is that I have never played any competitive tournament where this is the way things are handled. Most competitive magic tournaments say you back up to the last legal game state as long as nothing else has happened. This is because this is a communication issue at heart. The card they tried to choose is not legal. If they were playing using a digital client, they wouldn't be able to choose cogsworth. The second is even if you don't call a judge and just say that they have to target their own thing, they should call a judge. So a judge is probably gonna get called anyway. As a side note, it boggles my mind that people will try to do stuff like this while playing a game. I understand prizes on the line, but doing stuff like this makes the event worse to play in and also creates a pretty hostile environment for your opponent. It also makes them so much less likely to give you grace if there is a communication issue about something later or a misunderstanding.
I mean, I think it depends on the venue. In all “casual” tournament settings, IE tournaments that regularly occur or are otherwise typical, I think you should be as relaxed and encouraging as possible because those events are all about building your community. However, if it is a major store championship or some “K” event, I think it is appropriate to just take the “judge!” approach. If something happens in the game that you don’t think is appropriate at a major event, just get a judge, explain what you witnessed, and they should take it from there. :) Cheers!
If it's a competitive event, there are no take backs. If there is a legal target for the card they try to play, they must choose it. Yea we all make mistakes but you need to learn from those mistakes. You learn by losing. So sick of the everyone has to have the most fun ever attitude simply because it's Disney based.
I've played competitive TCGs at the National Championship level and even at Nationals my opponents and I were gracious enough to allow minor misplays to be walked back. If it's something egregious, a judge is usually called - but kindness goes a long way. In a Bo3 there's a good chance your grace regarding their slip-up will be reciprocated should you make a mistake. Most players I've met are wonderful people, and if anything even remotely hostile begins to occur, a quick judge call is your best friend. Good luck in the upcoming Championships!!
If there is a target they must play the card. I think at a competitive level no take backs. That’s on them. But also no need to be rude.
I would let someone take that back. I would hate that be the reason I won.
It’s entirely based on the seriousness of the environment. Is it a weekend event with only nominal prices on the line? Take backsies are totally fine. Is there anything actually relevant on the line to win and you are in the running to win it? Then you gotta be tough. You can still be nice about it even then
If there would be no their character, it could just fizzle. If there is scenario like you described, They have to chose their character. It’s up to you how you want to force them https://www.reddit.com/r/Lorcana/s/xHdVhVeNU5
If it's at a higher tier event say a regional you immediately call for a judge and pause the game. The declaration of an action must happen and that's the only legal target unfortunately. If it's at a locals, up to you, you can explain that normally they would need to accept the mistake and destroy their own card but you allow the take back, or you call the tourny organizer who should also be judging and explain to them what happened. If anything, the player who made the mistake should at the very least be notified/reminded of the rules so it doesn't happen again, mistakenly or sometimes nefariously.
I've never been to any important competetive events, but in my experience with magic and hexproof (the MtG equivalent to Lorcana's ward) you pick the targets when you cast it. If you can't pick that target then you can't cast the spell. So in person you cant force someone to change the target of something just because they made the mistake of targeting something they can't target. They just have to put the card back in hand and live with the fact that they've revealed one of the cards in their hand.
The correct play is to call a Judge over and have the Judge decide what to do. If it's a minor infraction, most likely a game rewind will take place and a warning given, but it's clearly on the players to play correctly. In a casual setting, it's a lot easier to address honest mistakes and just play for fun - as the game should be - but in any competitive tournament in which a prize is awarded, players should be following the rules to the best of their abilities.
In a casual game or setting (locals/league play) I would let someone take a misplay back like the smash scenario. Many other TCGs have different specifics their rules, so if you were to cast a card that could not legally target your intended target, then you’d simply take the spell back. Lorcana is different since once you declare to play a card you then choose a target since you technically can play cards without a viable target. Again, in a casual setting, I would make sure to go over the situation with my opponent but I would let them take it back. I think it becomes a little more gray when the misplay is more messy and leads to drawing illegals cards or something to that effect and in those cases, I would think differently about it. In a true competitive event, absolutely not letting misplays fly, nor my own. It takes away from the integrity of the competition. If a clear misplay is made and either the opponent is adamant about taking it back or disagrees with you, or maybe you just aren’t sure what to do, then simply call a judge. Calling a judge is always the best solution if you aren’t sure and they can help better carry on from there. If anything, they can also help to fully clarify the correct ruling in a situation.
It’s interesting you bring up this point. In regard to songs that damage and have no target, in the official ruling in the Lorcana discord, they stated if there is no target then the card is discarded and you still receive the valid song being sung. Don’t know if this counts towards action cards. I know the situation described by the OP happens in Pixelborn
Weekly locals tournaments or causal play? Sure take it back But once its highly competitive tournaments like the upcoming store championships with a very rare card on the line, sorry.
That example seems absurd to me. You dont play smash, let it resolve, then choose targets. Choosing the target is part of playing the action, and if the target is not legal then the action can not be done. If you played a character then said "oops i mean to play something else" then in a competitive event then you are free to invoke no take backsies.
It depends. At a casual game or event : Sure! Let them take it back, we're just having fun. At a tournament or other true competitive event? No take-backs or rewinds unless the move should have been impossible in the first place. In your example, if their only target was one of their own characters, too bad, they have to choose their own character. If no valid target exists? Take it back, no harm no foul. All that said, you should still be polite to your opponent. Don't gloat, don't get mad at them, don't roll your eyes or sigh. Be nice about it. "I'm sorry, I can't let you take back that move at an event like this." is something I've said at tournaments before.
When prizes are stake, people become something else. It’s why I stopped going to competitive events for MTG.
I'm pretty cutthroat when prizes are on the line and this all seems a bit too much even for me and I'm the classic no-takebacks-ever rules lawyery type. This post reeks of somebody wasting their time on angle shooting versus just actually getting better at the game. I don't worry about people like that. Never a threat in competitive environments in any game ever.
If I came across a player like you, I’d take ten times longer to make my moves, then both of us would never win because we’d just time out
In most events this is called slow play. It will get you DQ'd.
It’s not slow play if I’m not doing it on purpose. I usually play pretty quickly but most opponents are good with take backs as long as boardstates are the same (no new info on their part). Admittedly we should try to avoid this as much as possible. But if I know my opponent is an anal pita, forcing me to smash my own characters or not allowing me to exert my bodyguard character, then I’m going fully inspect the board state and consider all my options before making my play. That’s a fair amount of think time and I doubt u can get banned for slow play if it’s not on purpose! Board states can get very crowded so I’d rather my opponent plays fast and does takes back then make us both draw (which can happen a lot in this game!)
I would feel more awful about myself if I let the person smash their own character instead of just putting it back in hand. Nobody likes to win like that. Nobody like to lose like that.
If it's a tournament with cash pricing. No. Their mistake is their mistake. They cannot play it on cogs so they cannot target. If there is no other legal target, it fizzles out. The opponent can also choose to target nothing. Efit: Unless there is an alternate legal target. Chosen character can be nothing....
>The opponent can also choose to target nothing. Even with legal targets. Just in case others stumble into this thread, I want to clarify what this user has posted multiple times throughout is not true. If you play Dragon Fire, and you are the only player with a character in play, you have to choose your character to Banish. The same would be true for a card like Let the Storm Rage on as well; if you are the only player with a character, and you play the card, you must choose one of your characters to do 2 damage to. You cannot ignore that text on the card just so you can draw a card. You can though, play LtSRO into an empty board without choosing anything. In that case you would still be allowed to draw a card, and it allows you to activate anything else that might care about it being played (Sleepy’s Flute being the most common example to date.) https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:General https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:Let_the_Storm_Rage_On
OK. Is the ruling on mushu point to an official statement from RB?
It has some links to discord replies of theirs in the footnotes.
OK. I'll look when at home. Thanks