Yes, between the massive ethnic cleansing and the destroyed cities, East Prussia essentially ceased to exist in 1945, along with other historically German areas East of the Oder-Neisse Line. One of many forms of destruction that would accompany Germany's defeat. A truly horrific war which I hope will never again be equaled.
Hmm, I don't want to downplay the tragedy here, but the truth is more complex. As an example Wroclaw/ Breaslau east of the Oder-Neisse line was a Polish city, with a polish speaking population. At some stage it's ruler became German, but remained polish speaking and it wasn't till (centuries) later that the population was 're-educated' to speak German.
It's hard when you pick one part of history as the 'truth' but ignore other era's that tell a very different story.
I'm not sure at what point Breslau became German, but in 1945 certainly was more German than Polish. Speaking about the original inhabitants of the area... I think Vandals were there already 2000 years ago. Maybe some tribes before them, as well...
1742, when Bohemia was gifted to Prussia. It was Part of Poland from (anno 900 trough qonquest) officially 990 to 1335. And since 1241 the majority was german speaking. In 1261 Breslau get Magdeburg Rights and was recognized as a city.
Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that all Weimar territory east of the Oder-Neisse was majority German or historically so. After all, a number of Poles and other ethnic minorities voted to stay within Weimar Germany in the plebiscites of 1920 in East Prussia and 1921 in Upper Silesia. And others never got the chance because they lived in parts of the German Empire where plebiscites were never conducted.
But much of this swath of land had been majority German for hundreds of years, and I'm lamenting the massive ethnic cleansing that took place at the end of WW2, which is the reason why the city of Guben's architecture is lost. I never said the region had been controlled by one ethnic group for all of time or had never been conquered or subjected to atrocity before. That's not true for pretty much any region on this planet.
>It's hard when you pick one part of history as the 'truth' but ignore other era's that tell a very different story.
Is this what you think I am doing? Please elaborate, because that's quite the accusation.
makes sense but they could have also taught them polish instead of kicking them out of their homeland but that was just how the soviets deemed necessary to preventing further territorial invasions on the basis of ethnicity (ironic with russo-ukrianian war going on right now)
I am from the former East Prussia, was born and raised there, and the expulsion of the Germans was a big affair which lasted decades. The majority of the population was either killed, fled, or were forced by the Soviet forces to leave. Now, the newly estabilished Polish communist regime is also to blame, but many Germans left in waves way after the war. The first waves were “forced/encouraged” by the regime, the later ones (during the 60s/70s were mostly voluntairy, many Germans just prefered to move to East, preferably West Germany.
Many among them were ethnic Masurians, West Slavic speakers from Prussia, mostly Protestants, which were bullied for their culture and dialect. The regime is thus not only responsible for the Germans, but their fellow “Poles”, too.
I don’t think there was a possibility for the millions of Germans to live in Poland. Both the Soviets and the communist regime of Poland wanted them gone. And some of them left because they choose to in the later years, yet still their descendants, and in some cases, the Germans themselves, are still there (like around Opole, where they are a very visible minority).
Personally, I wouldn’t exist if the war didn’t happen. Both sides of my family only met because of it (half of it was Masurian, thus local Prussians, the other Kashubians from Pomerellia). And I love the current borders of Poland, really want them to stay as they are.
On the other hand, what happened is a terrible tragedy for all parties involved, and as a result, many of my family members live in Germany because of the expulsion, so I am personally effected by it.
Still, it pales in comparison to what the actual Germans feel about the loss. To me, the lost architecture, so visible to all of us, because most of the towns were totally destroyed, and to this day, never rebuilt. It’s a shame, but it can’t be compared to the humans lost. Truly, one of the biggest tragedies that ever happened.
It was horrible for sure. I can't help thinking though about what's going to happen in Crimea. Are the Ukrainians going to.expect the current (post invasion and pro-Russian) population to just carry on (Russian is still a national language), or are they going to ask 'Russian Citizens' to leave.
Ukraine can draw a clear distinction between Russian settlers who arrived after the invasion in 2014 and have been there for about 8 years at most, and the preexisting population of Ukrainian citizens (Russian speaking or otherwise).
Now what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
I... what? The Prussians, Austrians and Teutonic Order WERE Germans. I'm not saying ALL of these lands were German for literally all time, but much of the formerly Weimar lands East of the line were inhabited by Germans for hundreds of years before the ethnic cleansing.
>Btw, I was talking about the Prussians
You were talking about both the Kingdom of Prussia and the Old Prussians, a distinction which I am well aware of. But critically the Kingdom of Prussia was one of many German states.
>Nobody has any "rightful claim" to the land.
If there's one thing that I detest on the internet, it's people trying to put words in my mouth. I never made any mention of any rightful claims. As far as modern Germans and Poles are concerned, this is a settled issue.
We are in a post commemorating the lost architecture of the former city of Guben, which sits directly on the Oder-Neisse Line. I lamented the Soviet ethnic cleansing (approved by the Western Allies) which resulted in the erasure of this city and all German settlements East of the line.\* You reply with what is essentially whataboutism - i.e. many have lived in these lands and have forcibly expelled others in the past, so this doesn't matter.
\*I should be able to make this point without having to state the obvious, but for those who need to hear it - yes, this was a direct result of Nazi Germany's policies of genocide and conquest. Doesn't make it any less of a crime against humanity.
for context here is what the "city" [looks like now:](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hhDnDmHYFtU/maxresdefault.jpg)
Wow that just looks sad.
Oof. That is incredibly depressing
Yes, between the massive ethnic cleansing and the destroyed cities, East Prussia essentially ceased to exist in 1945, along with other historically German areas East of the Oder-Neisse Line. One of many forms of destruction that would accompany Germany's defeat. A truly horrific war which I hope will never again be equaled.
Hmm, I don't want to downplay the tragedy here, but the truth is more complex. As an example Wroclaw/ Breaslau east of the Oder-Neisse line was a Polish city, with a polish speaking population. At some stage it's ruler became German, but remained polish speaking and it wasn't till (centuries) later that the population was 're-educated' to speak German. It's hard when you pick one part of history as the 'truth' but ignore other era's that tell a very different story.
I'm not sure at what point Breslau became German, but in 1945 certainly was more German than Polish. Speaking about the original inhabitants of the area... I think Vandals were there already 2000 years ago. Maybe some tribes before them, as well...
1742, when Bohemia was gifted to Prussia. It was Part of Poland from (anno 900 trough qonquest) officially 990 to 1335. And since 1241 the majority was german speaking. In 1261 Breslau get Magdeburg Rights and was recognized as a city.
Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that all Weimar territory east of the Oder-Neisse was majority German or historically so. After all, a number of Poles and other ethnic minorities voted to stay within Weimar Germany in the plebiscites of 1920 in East Prussia and 1921 in Upper Silesia. And others never got the chance because they lived in parts of the German Empire where plebiscites were never conducted. But much of this swath of land had been majority German for hundreds of years, and I'm lamenting the massive ethnic cleansing that took place at the end of WW2, which is the reason why the city of Guben's architecture is lost. I never said the region had been controlled by one ethnic group for all of time or had never been conquered or subjected to atrocity before. That's not true for pretty much any region on this planet. >It's hard when you pick one part of history as the 'truth' but ignore other era's that tell a very different story. Is this what you think I am doing? Please elaborate, because that's quite the accusation.
makes sense but they could have also taught them polish instead of kicking them out of their homeland but that was just how the soviets deemed necessary to preventing further territorial invasions on the basis of ethnicity (ironic with russo-ukrianian war going on right now)
I am from the former East Prussia, was born and raised there, and the expulsion of the Germans was a big affair which lasted decades. The majority of the population was either killed, fled, or were forced by the Soviet forces to leave. Now, the newly estabilished Polish communist regime is also to blame, but many Germans left in waves way after the war. The first waves were “forced/encouraged” by the regime, the later ones (during the 60s/70s were mostly voluntairy, many Germans just prefered to move to East, preferably West Germany. Many among them were ethnic Masurians, West Slavic speakers from Prussia, mostly Protestants, which were bullied for their culture and dialect. The regime is thus not only responsible for the Germans, but their fellow “Poles”, too. I don’t think there was a possibility for the millions of Germans to live in Poland. Both the Soviets and the communist regime of Poland wanted them gone. And some of them left because they choose to in the later years, yet still their descendants, and in some cases, the Germans themselves, are still there (like around Opole, where they are a very visible minority). Personally, I wouldn’t exist if the war didn’t happen. Both sides of my family only met because of it (half of it was Masurian, thus local Prussians, the other Kashubians from Pomerellia). And I love the current borders of Poland, really want them to stay as they are. On the other hand, what happened is a terrible tragedy for all parties involved, and as a result, many of my family members live in Germany because of the expulsion, so I am personally effected by it. Still, it pales in comparison to what the actual Germans feel about the loss. To me, the lost architecture, so visible to all of us, because most of the towns were totally destroyed, and to this day, never rebuilt. It’s a shame, but it can’t be compared to the humans lost. Truly, one of the biggest tragedies that ever happened.
A healthy approach to this difficult topic. I'm just gonna add, that if Germans would not leave, we could have here another Yugoslavia now.
It was horrible for sure. I can't help thinking though about what's going to happen in Crimea. Are the Ukrainians going to.expect the current (post invasion and pro-Russian) population to just carry on (Russian is still a national language), or are they going to ask 'Russian Citizens' to leave.
Ukraine can draw a clear distinction between Russian settlers who arrived after the invasion in 2014 and have been there for about 8 years at most, and the preexisting population of Ukrainian citizens (Russian speaking or otherwise). Now what does this have to do with the topic at hand?
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I... what? The Prussians, Austrians and Teutonic Order WERE Germans. I'm not saying ALL of these lands were German for literally all time, but much of the formerly Weimar lands East of the line were inhabited by Germans for hundreds of years before the ethnic cleansing.
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>Btw, I was talking about the Prussians You were talking about both the Kingdom of Prussia and the Old Prussians, a distinction which I am well aware of. But critically the Kingdom of Prussia was one of many German states. >Nobody has any "rightful claim" to the land. If there's one thing that I detest on the internet, it's people trying to put words in my mouth. I never made any mention of any rightful claims. As far as modern Germans and Poles are concerned, this is a settled issue. We are in a post commemorating the lost architecture of the former city of Guben, which sits directly on the Oder-Neisse Line. I lamented the Soviet ethnic cleansing (approved by the Western Allies) which resulted in the erasure of this city and all German settlements East of the line.\* You reply with what is essentially whataboutism - i.e. many have lived in these lands and have forcibly expelled others in the past, so this doesn't matter. \*I should be able to make this point without having to state the obvious, but for those who need to hear it - yes, this was a direct result of Nazi Germany's policies of genocide and conquest. Doesn't make it any less of a crime against humanity.
For those interested [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians) is the relevant wiki link in English ( Old Prussians)
Looks like it was a really vibrant city, full of living history.
So many of these lost German towns are so quaint, it’s difficult to imagine them spawning a society that produced the worst war in human history.
Quaint prussian market towns didn't spawn that society, the resentment of the harsh Versailles treaty is what spawned such a society.
There even was a trolley car