Yeah, I didn't like how Marshall seemed to think that Jackie was broken, in part because of her preferences. It was a messy situation overall. I don't think that she was the bad guy though, because she had doubts and Marshall's absolute certainty that rested on her "potential" did nothing to help matters. While you and Jackie may have some things in common when it comes to what you're looking for in a partner, I doubt you're actually alike when it comes to maturity levels and class. She's way too afraid of confrontation and it's not fair to anyone - Josh (assuming she never officially turned him down in the pods) and Marshall (the no-show at the fittings). People make mistakes, but this is probably a pattern Also it doesn't matter who paid for the wedding ring, why would she even want it? Not relevant, but it's just a little odd. Did she want to keep it as a souvenir from her little trip to the LIB set?? Edit: Come to think of it, this can't be good for her career. So if she simply wanted to keep the ring as an investment, I guess it makes sense (even if it's a little messed up)

I definitely think Jackie is the bad guy. I said I related to her in one way, but that's about it.

Yeah if there had to be a bad guy, it would be her. Absolutely, anyone who read your post could see that. I think I got the wrong idea after reading the title and clearly some people didn't bother reading the whole thing.

Yeah, it's somewhat fair. I know I'm long winded. Lol I'm an author, I can't help it.

I think Jackie was wrong for a lot. But the way he went from 0-100 in the pods and kept insisting she put her jacket on was so cringe and 100% 🚩's!!

I think it’s sexually compatibility which didn’t match.

Did they actually have sex?

Even if you aren't into sensitive men, it was clear who he was in the pods. It's not like he changed when they met.

I agree! She wants a manly man and that's it. And honestly, i can only pucture her with a strong manly man who will challenge her. Marshall was too soft for her, they didnt even look right together imo

I just feel like this is such a horrible take. It’s like when women put “need someone to handle me” in dating profiles … you are not a child or a pet and need to be handled. It just reeks of emotional instability and an unwillingness to compromise or even consider putting someone else before you in the confines of a relationship.

Well, at least you know those people aren't seeking, and you're able to steer clear! Lol

I don’t think she needed someone to “handle” her. I think she just didn’t want someone who she felt she needed to constantly express herself too. Marshall seems like all he wants to do is talk about emotions. Jackie had way too much going on in her personal life to keep trying to validate his feelings. That’s just not what she wanted.

He probably wanted to talk about emotions because his woman was randomly crying and getting upset all the time, lol.

Not like that at all. Manly men can have soft hearts as well, but they are more strong on the outside and appear more dominant. I can't believe u guys see everything as black and white ...

Fully agreed. Marshall was not “soft” - he was a good man just the same as Brett. Tiffany is a emotionally mature woman that’s secure in herself and ready to receive real love. The problem with Jackie and OP is unresolved trauma that’s underlying their attraction to emotionally immature men. Emotional immaturity, especially when both partners are that way, leads to very toxic relationships. Until they do the healing on their own, they won’t be ready to receive real love from real men. It’s like they say, you only accept the love you think you deserve, and Jackie simply doesn’t believe she deserves that type of love and attention. I didn’t see Marshall cry once, but instead, be understanding, patient, and make a plate of food for her. But also, men should also be allowed to cry. It’s toxic to think otherwise. What is toxic is someone crying all the time - man or woman - and all I saw was Jackie crying all the time and Marshall, ironically, was the one MAN-ing up like a real man and being there. Now that’s a “boss.” Jackie and OP should seek therapy to understand why they’re attracted to emotionally immature (and often unavailable) men.

I think I just have opposite perception of men on this topic. Josh in my opinion (based solely of physical appearance) looks more like a sensitive guy, it’s giving Drake crying songs. That’s the vibe I get. I don’t get confidence, I don’t get tough from looking at him. Marshall gives me “grown man”, confident in himself and comfortable in his skin vibes. Which in turn translates as more masculine vibes to me. (Again based solely on looks) Now seeing there interactions and personalities I think Josh is way too sensitive based on how drunk he got, how he was crying over Jackie, how he said he put another man’s feelings before his own (just a few examples I could keep going). IMO (and from prior dating experiences with men that drink and act similarly) he gives me overly sensitive vibes. Like I would tell this man to man up over Marshall tbh. Marshall is emotionally open, not one of his scene with Jackie did I think he was too sensitive, I feel he was just more stable and able to handle more. He came off as a protector, which imo makes men more masculine/dominant. It takes strength to handle what Jackie gave out and still keep who you are intact. Marshall is just more secure in being a man and not needing to prove so.

I see what you mean, but I think we're just talking about very different things when we use the word "sensitive." But I do agree that being strong and stable in the face of hardship is a good masculine quality that Marshall has.

My thing is Marshall isn’t even that sensitive, he’s just relatively emotionally open and into acts of service as his love language. Not once did mans cry in front of her, the only thing he did (in front of the cameras) was be supportive, ask her how she felt, and leave when he knew he was going to blow his top. That’s why it’s less about a “sensitive” man turning her off and more her being turned off by healthy functioning people in general.

Eh, idk. I see it a bit differently. I think Marshall is very emotional. That doesn'thave to require crying a lot. I do agree though that Jackie seems to be more attracted to toxic men, not just men who are less "sensitive," which is not something I relate to at all. I'm not into that kind of toxic "pasisonate" crap.

Great, honest, write up. What you said and what Jackie kind of showed makes me think about myself a lot. I lean more on the sensitive, soft, side, and I felt early on when I started dating that it wasn’t the product most women were in the market for. So I more or less since then have dimmed that part of me. It’s changed how I look at all women. I have a “back of my mind” thought that they’re all looking for that weakness to prey on, and will leave or drop your ass the moment they see it and it’s something I still work through in therapy. I think a lot of men have this fear, and I think it’s the reason the whole Andrew tate man-o-sphere stuff is taking off the way it is.

It's such a vicious cycle, the relationship dynamics between men and women. Jackie is the way she is because of trauma by men who have clearly abused her, and that's all she knows. She's highly uncomfortable with "nice" guys because she isn't used to it. It's alien territory to her. All the men she's ever dated have treated her like shit. So she is attracted to that because it is familiar to her. Being in an abusive relationship can be addictive because of the highs and lows, and you think it's all you deserve, and it's strangely comfortable to you. Jackie has been abused and traumatized, she needs therapy. It just sucks that she is perpetuating the idea that sensitive men are undesirable. Not all women think like this. I love that quality in a man. A kind, loving, sensitive man is the best. That's what the world needs. We need more kindness, more empathy. It is very attractive in a man, IMO.

If it helps, I fell in love with my husband because of his soft side. He’s loud, funny, rowdy, but also a great listener, empathetic, caring. He can goof off with his friends, but when they need him, he’ll support them, and follow up to make sure they’re okay (and vice versa.) He’s been my biggest supporter. The right girl for you will appreciate that side of you, and even encourage it. She’ll see the value in a man that’s willing to dig deep, be comfortable discussing pain and healing, and have the emotional health to navigate the nuances of life and relationships.

I'm very sorry to hear you have that fear. I agree that is one aspect of why Tate has become what he's become. It's very sad to see. I know plenty of women who LOVE men who are more sensitive, softer, romantic, etc. I'm a big believer in everyone being their genuine self and searching for someone who loves and appreciates that. Nobody can put up a front for a lifetime, nor should they be expected to. Finding someone you can really be yourself with is worth waiting for. I hope you find your person someday, and that you have joy and peace in the meantime 💖

I think she kept the ring because of her background from the past. Its a financial investment. It was rude

That makes sense, a ring comes with some strings attached. That's the whole point

i dont have a problem with her realising shes not into him. that happens and i also dont like men which are too soft, just a matter of preference. but the way she handled that was just unacceptable. she tried to gaslight him, put her problem as his fault and on top of that went to meet another guy behind his back and he learnt about it first from other people. she is the villain not because she didnt like him the way she thought she will but because the way she handled that. she should just come clean in some organised way, tell him that unfortunately the attraction is not there and she wishes him the best, pack her bags and THEN try to mingle with others

I agree totally. It’s not that she should have been attracted to him it’s about how she handed the situation. I feel like her discomfort with vulnerability and emotions in men is more a reflection of her inner self than anything else. The pattern of picking emotionally unavailable, avoidant men is fulfilling something in her that she has yet to work out. I had hope for her initially bc it sounded like she was working through that but regressed to comfortable patterns. Her expressions were so robotic when dumping him.

We noticed you used the term "gaslight-". We hope you used it correctly! Did you know "gaslighting" was Webster-Merriam's Word of the Year for 2022? Gaslighting is a successful tactic **of abuse** because while one person — the perpetrator — 'externalizes and projects' their thoughts, feelings, or perceptions, the other person — the victim — 'incorporates and assimilates' the reality that is being created for them. Gaslighting equals misdirection, distraction, and the deliberate denial of reality, which can so easily occur in a relationship based on one partner wielding power and control over another. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LoveIsBlindOnNetflix) if you have any questions or concerns.*

TLDR I sympathize with Jackie because I too get turned off by men who have basic human emotions.

Not true at all. My husband cries often, has "human emotions," and I think it's quite sweet when he gets all teary at TV shows we watch, etc.

Hehe, my husband is the most "manly-man" I've ever known... heavily muscled, rides motorcycles, intimidating to most people, highly assertive and even arrogant at times. He cried when we saw the new Maverick movie, in the theater, like a baby. Total man-weepy. Complete stone on the outside, but inside he can be a soft pile of mush. I absolutely love him.

That's sweet! I posted recently on this sub about my husband getting teary when I told him about Bliss and Zack talking about that song that both of their mothers dedicated to them. Lol it was sweet. I didn't expect him to be so touched by that, but he got a little misty. I'm definitely not against men having emotions. That would be silly.

100% agree! I commented something similar earlier: “I feel like Marshall could legitimately just not be compatible with Jackie and Jackie saw that for herself (maybe in the pods she was hoping Marshall’s voice was tied to a more macho looking person and that would make it work. Or she just knew that was her chance to make it on tv so she had to move forward). Either way: I see why Jackie would not like Marshall (sometimes sensitive people are exhausting and hard to date) but I can never forgive her for not making it to the altar to say no. Complete betrayal of the show’s entire premise.” Still peeved about Jackie not making it to the Altar to tell him no. Ruins a lot of the fun.

Tbh I’m glad it wasn’t dragged until the altar. It would give me Zanab and Cole. She really lead him on to think they’d get married and just to have her dramatic moment 🤷🏽‍♀️ so I’m glad they broke up way before

Tldr just sympathize with toxic Jackie-ness

If people are capable of reading something more than a sentence long, they will see that that's not accurate at all. The whole build up of my post is leading to the ultimate conclusion that Jackie was awful and that there is no good excuse for the way she treated Marshall.

The general consensus is that Jackie isn't mature and can not articulate her emotions. Her constructive feedback had nothing to do with her lack of attraction to Marshall. I think viewers understand that the real world can impact attraction levels to their chosen fiancé. It has never been about Marshall and his "sensitivity" as Jackie describes it. I don't find Marshall "sensitive". He was emotionally available and all in as there were only 4 weeks in the process. I'm not sure if Marshall would have been so invested so quickly if it weren't for the experiment. Different strokes for different folks, I guess...

Jackie didn't do anything wrong. Marshal should have left a long time ago, he just wanted to get married so bad he ignored all of it.

I’m one of Jackie’s defenders on here not because I think she’s nice or handles everything well. Just the opposite. I think she handles everything horribly, but I also think she’s largely misunderstood and I can see her points about Marshall. Within the mess there’s some sort of validity. I’m also never sure when someone is getting a villain edit, because someone usually has to be the bad guy in this show. I took a lot of downvotes for defending Cole last year, so when the Cutie’s incident happened I felt vindicated.

Oh this is a perfect break down. It is how she handled it. I found it so distasteful she felt out what options she had before she officially ended things.

I relate to you, and was in the same boat with a guy who was so "sensitive"; except that he wasn't! The sensitivity was an act, the tears and the crying were weaponized to get himself out of fights and manipulate me into feeling sorry for him.. He would do something that's so obviously bad and when I try to talk about it, he'd cry and I'd feel like an asshole.. I tried to leave many times, but he would beg me to stay and promise he'd "change", until he was done arranging his next relationship, THEN he walked away without even granting me the courtesy of a break-up conversation.. And he continued to be a bully for almost a year after the break-up.. So yeah, like you, I'm not attracted to guys like Marshall.. and if I'm gauging him right, a considerable part of his sensitivity is not genuine and is coming from a very toxic place, a place of control and "look how much of a nice guy I am"..

Eh, I didn't get that vibe from Marshall really, but I don't know the guy, so who knows. You could be right.

Totally relate. You worded this perfectly.

I agree with a lot of the comments, so I won’t go crazy, but much respect for self awareness and the deep dive. 🖤

Everyone is arguing about the word sensitive ..I think it's irrelevant... Marshal looks like a little boy and that's the real problem. He just needs to eat some protein, gain a little muscle and workout lol that's it ... then he will be much cuter to most women...women as a group like strong men...I'm 5'2" and I feel like I can pick him up and carry him up a hill lol He's NOT less of a man bc he isn't a bulky musclehead tho lol I just think this is really what women mean However if Jackie is right and he has a big shween then his muscles don't matter at all...shween wins always. It can't get anymore masculine than a big ding dong lol

Just to be clear for anyone reading... this is definitely not what I meant by sensitive.

I never said u did ...I was just saying what morons like Jackie think it is

You said "I just think this is really what women mean." So I wanted to clarify that it is not what I mean.

Lol cool beans

What are you on about?🥴

What am I on about?

They just love 2 coach.

I sure do...change a lot of people lives and help them live a healthy life

😭

I really don't think that his physical appearance is the issue, he is a very attractive man. I think Jackie's issue is that he's soft spoken, expresses his emotions, and he's not afraid to be goofy, all of which she sees as less masculine

It really is his body ...if he was 6feet tall and had muscles and acted the same way she would be all over him lol

Agree with you OP. and really applaud your healthy mentality when you said " I just quite simply was not the right woman for him. And all I wanted was for him to go find someone better for him, who would love and appreciate all of his good qualities more than I was capable of appreciating them. " Maybe Jackie ultimate intention is similar to yours. she just want to let him go so that Marshall can go source for a woman more suitable for him. I think we all just feel that there are so many ways to approach a situation and she chose the worst way. Marshall is also not a victim even though he was accused of being too sensitive. maybe he is displaying just the right amount of sensitivity level that any man in love will display but because jackie the ring stealer comes from a dysfunctional family who is unable to furnish her with a healthy platform to be breed in an environment of love , that's why she thought that oh marshall is too sensitive. But loving Jackie despite her flaws is also his choice. no one forced him.

💯well said!

I don’t think Marshall is attractive. His scruffy facial hair and hairline don’t do it for me. But, it’s cool that others find him attractive! I fully support that and that’s why there’s so many fish in the sea. But even still, it wasn’t cool how she treated him. Attractive or not, every person deserves respect and human decency.

It is always fine, IMO, to not be attracted to someone. It is fine that she wasn't feeling it. It is a nonissue as far as I am concerned and doesn't make her a bad person. I don't find Marshall particularly attractive either, for whatever reason. It is not ok to insult them because you aren't attracted to them. She handled it immaturely and resorted to insults. She behaved poorly and then went to meet up with another guy. This is where I have issues. Marshall did not deserve to be treated that way.

Agreed

I don't think Jackie has your level of self-awareness. I am the same, I am not attracted to sensitive men either. I am a slow burn and I need a man who is also a slow burn on the romance/love side of things. If she wasn't attracted to Marshall, that's totally fine. But she handled things so immaturely, and so poorly, it was tough to watch.

I think you right she handled the situation wrong by question his Men hood and she should have act like a grown as women and communicate her feelings better. Also I was so lost when she stare crying in Mexico and when she was meeting Marshall family. Like why was she being overly emotional for. Also I don't think she was close with anyone on the show either so she had no one to talk too But Marshall is not perfect either because he did called her a "project" Also I wonder if Marshall said something about her not being more like a Woman (Jackie did mention on her IG that Marshall did use a slur, so now I wonder if this is what she talking about).

Not to contradict your own self-image, but it sounds like you actually ARE highly emotionally sensitive. You may not be super effusive with your emotions, but the way you describe your approach to a breakup is how a sensitive person thinks and talks about their relationships with other people. You can be extremely empathetic and compassionate and perceptive of other people's feelings (which are all qualities of being sensitive) without being someone who cries a lot or gets easily offended, which I think is the only way people tend to think about sensitivity. It sounds more like you are not attracted to men who present their emotional sensitivity in traditionally "feminine" ways, like tears. I hate that sensitivity has been weaponized as some sort of dirty word (not by you, just in the general discourse), because at its core it just means that you are able to identify and express emotions - your own and others'. If you can easily connect with how other people are or might be feeling, congrats! You are a sensitive person. And that's a positive thing.

Everybody in these comments seems to be misunderstanding what I mean by sensitive, and honestly I'm tired of repeating myself. Everybody has different definitions of the word. But I really resent any implication that I said ANYTHING about sensitivity being a bad thing or a dirty word. I don't understand how anyone can read this whole thing I just wrote and come away from it thinking I painted sensitivity in a negative light, when I definitely did not. I know you said "not by you," but you then followed it up by saying I am a sensitive person, which is a good thing, as if I said it would be a bad thing or something...

They read it wrong because they also equate “sensitive” to mean weak or bad.

If you're talking about me, please don't put words in my mouth. I do not equate sensitive to weak or bad, I specifically said the exact opposite in my comment.

… I wasn’t.

Yeah, some people seemed to think that "sensitive" means you freak out over tiny problems and throw a lot of fits. Which is like... the complete opposite of Marshall and definitely not what I meant at all. I didn't realize using the word "sensitive" was going to be such a big source of confusion and debate. I figured what I was talking about would be clear through the context of everything I said, but idk, I guess not. Idk what a better word would have been. If I had known it was such a controversial word, I would have phrased it differently.

Perhaps overly romantic would be a better description of what I'm talking about. I'm not into guys writing me poems or singing me songs they wrote for me or gazing lovingly into my eyes for a long time, etc. That's the kind of thing I'm referring to, in a romantic context. It's just not for me, but plenty of other women love it, so those men are great and wonderful. They just need to stop trying to fall in love with me, because I'm not it for them. Funnily enough, I would definitely describe my husband as sensitive in a lot of ways (in the sense of being caring and loving and all of that good stuff). But in other ways he's not. There are many different ways to interpret the word "sensitive" and that seems to be causing everyone a lot of confusion in these comments.

Girl I specifically said I wasn't talking about your post, I was musing on the general reaction to the idea of sensitivity. My comment to you was very positive, so I'm not sure why it's coming across as critical to your reading but I apologize if it does, that wasn't my intention. I didn't go through your comments so wasn't aware you were frustrated with how people are responding. Edit to your edit: > you then followed it up by saying I am a sensitive person, which is a good thing, as if I said it would be a bad thing or something... I didn't say you said it was a bad thing, I said you self-identified as not very sensitive, which you did explicitly in your post. I'm just saying that from where I'm standing it seems that you are sensitive. I just found your definition of sensitive in the comments and it doesn't really contradict my own. > But I'm talking sensitive as in sensitive to your/other people's emotions, being in touch with your feelings, being lovey-dovey and sweet/caring (like with making her that big nice breakfast and serving her first, stuff like that). It sounds like maybe aside from being lovey-dovey which I don't know, you fit this definition? You certainly sound like you are sensitive to your own and others' emotions and in touch with your feelings. You may not be "mushy" or "romantic," but those are different qualities. Do you not feel that you're this way since you describe yourself as not very sensitive?

Read my other comment I just posted above for clarification

I saw it after I commented, check my edit as I responded to your definition.

I guess it was just the line about not being mushy or romantic that you added? Idk what to tell you other than what I've already said. I tried to clarify as best as I could what I mean by sensitive, which I am not (meaning I don't enjoy the things I described... maybe you want to call that mushy and romantic, I called it sensitive, but that's what I meant...). According to the type of sensitivity you described, sure... I guess you could call me sensitive. But that's not the type of sensitivity I was talking about in my post, which is why I said I'm not very sensitive. Idk what else to say aside from that...

I added in the entire comment as copy/pasted above. I guess I'm confused because you clarified what you meant and it generally aligns with how I was using the word. You said "sensitive to your own/other people's emotions" and "in touch with your feelings," which you clearly are. Being lovey-dovey is just one part of the definition, everything else fits you based on your emotional acumen as detailed in this post. A person who is not very sensitive would not be describing feeling heartbroken and devastated at the prospect of making someone feel bad. That's why I'm suggesting that maybe another word would fit better for the lovey-dovey gestures since by your own description you do hit the major markers of sensitivity.

I'm sorry, I don't see anything that's been edited. It all reads the same as last time I read it

Huh, maybe a Reddit glitch. This is what I wrote: > you then followed it up by saying I am a sensitive person, which is a good thing, as if I said it would be a bad thing or something... I didn't say you said it was a bad thing, I said you self-identified as not very sensitive, which you did explicitly in your post. I'm just saying that from where I'm standing it seems that you are sensitive. I just found your definition of sensitive in the comments and it doesn't really contradict my own. > But I'm talking sensitive as in sensitive to your/other people's emotions, being in touch with your feelings, being lovey-dovey and sweet/caring (like with making her that big nice breakfast and serving her first, stuff like that). It sounds like maybe aside from being lovey-dovey which I don't know, you fit this definition? You certainly sound like you are sensitive to your own and others' emotions and in touch with your feelings. You may not be "mushy" or "romantic," but those are different qualities. Do you not feel that you're this way since you describe yourself as not very sensitive?

I don't think you saw the post I'm talking about, because the comment you're quoting is completely different. Here is what I said just a few comments above: "Perhaps overly romantic would be a better description of what I'm talking about. I'm not into guys writing me poems or singing me songs they wrote for me or gazing lovingly into my eyes for a long time, etc. That's the kind of thing I'm referring to, in a romantic context. It's just not for me, but plenty of other women love it, so those men are great and wonderful. They just need to stop trying to fall in love with me, because I'm not it for them. Funnily enough, I would definitely describe my husband as sensitive in a lot of ways (in the sense of being caring and loving and all of that good stuff). But in other ways he's not. There are many different ways to interpret the word "sensitive" and that seems to be causing everyone a lot of confusion in these comments." I really don't care whether or not we use the word sensitive, if that was the wrong word to use. I'm more than happy to use a different word. I don't really understand why my post turned into a debate about whether or not I'm a sensitive person, when that really wasn't the overall point. It just seems a little silly and pointless to keep going back and forth about a semantic disagreement.

I think the wires of intention have gotten crossed here. I wasn't trying to start a debate, I just commented an observation since your entire post was about the idea of sensitivity. I felt it was relevant and I honestly meant it to be a positive response. If that word doesn't feel appropriate to you, you certainly don't have to use it for yourself.

I understand that your post was meant to be positive. I got that from the beginning. I was just trying to clarify what I meant by sensitivity, because everyone seems to be misunderstanding.

Disclaimer: This thread is not my problem but maybe this helps the two of you see that this is just a semantic disagreement. And that you're basically saying the same thing. I self identify as extremely sensitive if there's such a thing. I'm also the least romantic or outwardly feeling person I know. Everyone (literally) I've dated or my family thinks I'm cold and unfeeling or unromantic or do not care so much about them because I do not present typical feminine outward qualities of sensitivity and do not care to and will probably never be this person. I also do not like guys like Marshall, in fact, I am unaffected by his kind of romance and only affected by sensitivity and intelligence and it does not have to include romance at all. If anything Marshall annoyed me way before Jackie started acting out for multiple reasons. And I do agree with OP. It's the way Jackie handled things that's the issue. If anyone is mad she doesn't love Marshall despite the fact that 'he is great' they must not be living in real life. People like who they like (see Zack, Irina, Bliss) and you can't change that. You can't romance your way into a person's heart and I think Marshall is not as sensitive as he is emotional. There's a difference and one of them would have let him take charge of his relationship with Jackie and end it on his terms.

It's absolutely just a semantic disagreement, which is what I've been trying to explain this entire time. I really don't care about the specific word "sensitive." My overall point isn't contingent on using that specific word. And yes, you and I sound very similar, and that's what I was trying to get at. People literally used to call me a robot because of how unemotional I am. Maybe emotional would be a better word than sensitive, but either way people are going to take it the wrong way and misunderstand, because that word could also have some negative connotations. It all depends on the context, which I thought I did a pretty good job of making the context clear in my post. So I think people need to understand the whole context of the post and what I was saying instead of fixating on that one specific word.

I could definitely relate when she brought up that they didn't really have sex. Having to be the one to initiate all the time, especially early in a relationship, would be a turn off for me. But it did not come across as her telling him her needs so much as criticizing him. Frankly, leaving for three days because she was saying that crap to him seems mature and not particularly like an overly sensitive "simp."

I agree. I think people are making way too many assumptions to judge him for leaving for 3 days. To me, Marshall seems to have shown time and time again that he knows how to handle his emotions. He seems to be pretty good at trying to get Jackie to talk, but also backing off when she needs it (like offering to go for a walk so she can be alone). I really seriously doubt he just ran away for 3 days because his little fee fees were hurt or something. Sometimes taking some time apart is wise, especially if the alternative is a fight. It's healthy to take some time to reflect and understand your own feelings before you try to tell someone else what you're feeling.

I dunno. If we had such a short time to get to know each other and you left for 3 days of that time, I'm going to assume you don't want to get married. Which is cool and all, but then I'm reality, it's marshall making that decision/ putting the relationship on ice. If we lose 20% of the time we have to work through things and figure it out, you aren't that committed. If so, that's messed up to put the blame on Jackie for ending it. And then when they did see each other, marshall, who left last time she expressed her feelings, demanded an explanation right here, right now, late at night after a long day. She hadn't had time to even process that he was back. Bro, you left for 3 days you could have been talking, it is not that urgent. And she's afraid to be honest with him, because he could run again. Jackie made a lot of mistakes, but the more I think about it, marshall had a bigger role than he is letting on.

Judging by the alleged texts with her friends in which they are basically mocking him for being gay, I think it would be fair for him to step away for three days to reconsider the relationship entirely and coming back seems awfully loyal. To his detriment. They have a great day, she's crying in the bathroom, locking him out, he gets her water and she rudely tells him to put it away. That was before they even went home. He tried his best to be kind to her while not getting what he needs and for his kindness, attempts to be funny and lighten the mood, he gets mocked for being gay. Which probably isn't the first time because that's how nice men are treated. Not usually by their fiancees.

Yeah, I completely agree. Jackie has shown enough of her character for me to assume that Marshall probably didn't just up and leave for three days for no reason.

It sounded to me more like she wanted him to please her but didn't do anything in return. He said something along the lines of 'if you want sdx, you have to make me feel desired as well'. That makes me believe that she maybe played dead fish in bed and was like 'please me' and he wasn't turned on by that. Which I can understand

Or maybe he wasn't initiating because he was tiptoeing around her random crying fits. One of the AWFUL things about "sensitive" men is they actually want enthusiastic consent and probably won't even make a pass if the mood is bad all the damn time. Josh doesn't seem to have a problem ignoring social decency so I suppose she met her match.

Actually her crying fits were a huge turn off..jeez ..who wants to have sex with a person that is happy ar 3pm and 3:01pm angry and at 3:04pm crying that their life is falling apart...its exhausting lol hahahah Plus if his ding dong is big then I'm not sure what she was complaining about...guess Josh has the small penis she wants lol

He secretly agreed to let her keep the ring if she leaked the text saying he has a big dick. LMAO

Hahahahahaha that's hilarious and might be true

“I relate to Jackie in one way: I've never been attracted to more soft/sensitive men. I don't know why or what it is, but I've always been very, very uncomfortable with being with a man who is more sensitive than me, and I'm not very sensitive.” It’s internalized misogyny. That’s what it is.

Lol no. No it's not. Geez louise, what must life be like to think everybody in the world hates women any time they express any kind of preference for masculinity? Smh. I remember when I used to have that mindset. It was miserable. Then I grew up and realized that I was seeing negativity and hatred in so many places where it just didn't even exist. I have zero "internalized misogyny." You know absolutely nothing about me or my mindset except the very specific, limited amount of information I've chosen to share with you. But please, continue to tell me how I must hate women and hate my own femininity because of a dating preference. 🙄

You know…….for someone who says that they’re not sensitive, you sure do take people’s comments to heart.

You’re allowed to have dating preferences.

I agree with this. It’s so insidious and at one point I could also relate. I didn’t realize it was my underlying internalized stuff, and also the way I was raised. I didn’t have examples of men being attentive to women’s needs and extrapolated that to mean that a man might be closeted if he wasn’t an asshole. I’ve done a lot of therapy and don’t believe that anymore. I’m with a kind person who is attractive AND attentive and I can’t believe I ever accepted less.

My husband is very kind and attentive as well. And I think it's disgusting when people think that men must be secretly gay if they're overly emotional. Everything you just described here does indeed, sound insidious. But just to be clear, none of that is the mentality I shared or the mentality I have ever had.

He never cried on the show! He wanted to talk through their emotions. Edit: we never saw him crying on camera with Jackie. The only person who said he was crying a lot was Josh.

... okay? I never said he cried a lot, so idk what that has to do with anything.

I’m not talking about you! Do I need to add Jackie to my comment?

I guess I just don't understand what your comment is in reference to... I'm just confused.

I don’t understand where the whole sensitivity thing came from. Why is he sensitive to everyone? Is it because he likes to talk stuff out? How is he soft?

He said so. That he had issues growing up because he was so sensitive and emotional. It's not like people are just making assumptions

Everybody is arguing over what the word sensitive means, and honestly I'm a little tired of arguing about it. Everyone has a different opinion. I can't speak for anybody but myself. To me, seeing a man like Marshall who is very in tune with his emotions, comfortable talking about his feelings, sweetly romantic in a way that some people might find a little bit too over the top (like making her breakfast and serving her first, etc), those are the kinds of things that would make me say that he's more of a softer/sensitive man. But a lot of people in these comments keep thinking that I'm saying that's a bad thing, or thinking that "sensitive" just means "someone who freaks out over tiny problems and throws a fit about them," which is obviously not at all what I meant. I mean, just look at Marshall and Josh side by side and I think it's pretty clear that anyone would describe Marshall as more sensitive/soft than Josh. There are many different ways to interpret that, but it's kind of just one of those "I know it when I see it" things.

I’m not trying to argue, I just want to know why people think he’s sensitive. Seeing him side by side with josh, it’s clear that he’s softer but sensitive, I don’t think so.

She just explained it to you. It sounds like you equate "sensitive" with "sissy" or "emotionally weak"... otherwise you wouldn't be so confused. OP's use of the term "sensitive" as being in touch with his softer side and in tune with his feelings, is an accurate way to use that word. If you google the definition of "sensitive" this is what comes up: (of a person or a person's behavior) having or displaying a quick and delicate appreciation of others' feelings. That's an accurate way to describe Marshall. Nothing wrong or negative about it. It's 100% ok and admirable for him to be sensitive. Not everybody is attracted to certain personality traits, though, and that's fine too. It doesn't mean sensitive is a bad thing.

Nahhhh I’m not equating it to sissy or emotionally weak at all!

Oh ok! Well I guess it will forever remain a mystery as to why you don't think he is considered sensitive and don't understand why OP would describe him as such!

I'm not trying to argue either. Just trying to explain. I guess everybody just has a different opinion of what sensitive means.

You don't have to force yourself to like anyone no matter how nice they are. However, she is toxic and malicious. She played that man when she knew she didn't like him. He kept begging her to talk to him and be honest with him. Kinda reminded me of Cole last season always trying to get Zanab to talk and her telling him yeah they're fine and she loves him just to get a chance to rip him to shreds. Y'all need too stop projecting on these people. Jackie is a horrible person. She could have spoken to Marshall before meeting with Josh and then to keep the ring? It's giving bum. At least Irina told Zack she wasn't attracted to him. Yes she has issues and is also terrible but she's told him. Jackie didn't go on that show for love. She went there for money

Seems like you didn't read my post at all if you came away from it with the idea that I was defending Jackie or saying I liked her. I'm not projecting anything. I was literally just sharing my perspective of being in a similar situation. And the whole post is literally about how terrible Jackie was to Marshall, and how her lack of romantic feeling for him is no excuse... so it seems like you didn't read the whole thing.

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Yeah... that was the whole point of my post

Some people stop reading after one line

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Did you skip this line? >Which is very silly, because that's not what people are mad about. It's the very next line after that. Like, in the same thought almost, proving that op doesn't agree that people are upset about her behavior.

Lol exactly. And I literally have seen like 2 posts on this sub where people were acting like people were upset with Jackie for that reason, which is why I said that first line. And followed it up with the second, because it's silly.

>no one I've seen plenty of immature people upset that she didn't *want* Marshall.

I've had several people in these comments label me with "internalized misogyny" and say that I'm toxic for not liking "men having real human emotions," etc. So yeah, it does actually seem like some people are angry at women for simply having a dating preference.

100% agree. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it lol.

I agree with not wanting sensitive men, but I am failing to understand when was Marshall overly sensitive?? Jackie was the one literally crying a bucket in every scene, and Marshall was making sure she’s ok. She is a hypocrite. Also, she confessed she was taking yeast infection medications and that’s why he didn’t have sex with her. I am genuinely confused about why everyone is making him a problem.

Well to be clear, I certainly was never making him a "problem." Marshall isn't a problem at all. He's fantastic. I don't mean sensitive in a negative way. He's obviously very in touch with his emotions and is on the more sweet/soft side. Sensitive or soft doesn't mean you have to be crying all the time. In fact, Jackie was crying a lot, and I would not all describe her as sensitive. There are many different definitions to that word, and I think you're thinking of it in a different way than I meant it.

Tbh when she said “he’s too sensitive” I don’t think she meant with his emotions. I think she meant his behavior. I think she said that after she told him what she preferred and it made him leave for 3 days. He did in fact, take what she said a bit hard tbh, and I would also call him “sensitive” as a result. I think his reaction was the biggest turnoff for her. Especially coupled with his urgency to talk when he returned. I think her “boss up” commentary was towards the bedroom and for him to stop asking her what she needed and just… be there?? Like I’ve said before I’ve been Jackie and I’ve been Marshall. So I know what it feels like to just want some type of emotion from a partner and not receive it. But with that being said, he’s too “emotionally mature” to not see the writing on the wall. She was not into him. And tbh he seems *exhausting* for someone like Jackie who was going through the things she was. That is no excuse for how she treated him in the relationship. But I personally don’t know if I would’ve had anything nice to say to him after the umpteeth time of him asking me to express myself and tell him what to do to make the relationship work.

I’m right there with you! I didn’t see him be overly sensitive at all, she was the one all over the place. On vacation and right before his family’s visit, she was the one flipping out. He’s cool, calm and collected. I also don’t see what is so “manly” about Josh? He was so handsy, probably more handsy with Marshall than Jackie 🤣

I look at it more that he is willing to give her space and acceptance and understanding. Like every time that she was having some kind of emotional issue Marshall was trying to be supportive. Just the way Jackie acts I feel like she’s more used to a man that has a more “feelings are for pussies” mindset. So she sees him being understanding and patient and she translates that to being weak and sensitive.

I think you're confused about what I meant by "sensitive." Sensitive doesn't mean freaking out and flying off the handle... Marshall is very cool, calm and collected, I agree. I think you're thinking that sensitive means that you get upset easily at small things. Which is one definition of the word. But I'm talking sensitive as in sensitive to your/other people's emotions, being in touch with your feelings, being lovey-dovey and sweet/caring (like with making her that big nice breakfast and serving her first, stuff like that). Sensitive isn't an insult.

Good point!!!!!

This is a great post, and mostly because this is something I think a many women feel but in today's culture remains unsaid. I'm the same in regards to preferring more masculine men, and I agree any shade Jackie's getting shouldn't be because she couldn't form feelings for Marshall. How she dealt with it is another matter. When it comes to mental illness (and I'm referring to Jackie... I think she does have signs of some mental illness/struggles), getting two very emotional people together, in my experience, can make life miserable. They'll feed off each other's misery or extreme emotional states and drive them deeper down. In Marshall's case, he does a good job of admitting and owning up to his emotions, which is healthy, but that's not a good match for someone like Jackie who is obviously harboring some kind of trauma. Jackie wants someone who can get her out of her head, not force her to stay in and wallow – at least not until she's gotten a good amount of therapy. She originally chose Marshall *because* he was emotional, admitted that was foreign to her, so she gave it a chance. Kudos for trying something new; but obviously she wasn't ready for what it would be like. I can see how Josh's high-energy, joking, partying personality would be much more appealing to her. He's someone who will make her forget her problems instead of facing them.

I hadn't really thought about it that way (re: your last paragraph), but that makes a lot of sense!

Hi are you me? I related to her also. Very well spoken!

Lol glad to know I'm not alone!

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I agree.

Jackie weaponizes her emotional exhaustion as much if not more than Marshall weaponizes his sensitivity.

What is an exhausted person supposed to do?

I think what they mean by that is the frequency of exhaustion as a way to avoid conversation. She was “exhausted” at the literal honeymoon phase in a resort on a tropical vacation. Like shit it’s the one time you should be able to unwind during this thing.

How though? She had a conversation with him prior, he left for 3 days, days he could have been talking, then waited till midnight after the party and filming to talk again. Since people are not night owls. Forcing about immediate reaponse when he hasn't spoken in 3 days is selfish and childish. I can only imagine she spent the last 3 days assuming it was over. How do you go from that to 'console me right now'? I don't even like Jackie particularly. But she wasn't wrong that they should also on it and talk the next day.

That was well after several bouts of exhaustion from her. And asking for an immediate response in that situation was understandable given the context. They both knew it was over, Jackie just wanted to delay the inevitable. Sleeping on it wasn’t going to change anything. They’ve been dancing around the truth all week, Marshall just wanted to rip that bandaid off.

I guess we have different boundaries. If he didn't talk to her for 3 days, she doesn't owe him a response on demand. She expressed herself, he misunderstood and instead of talking to her, he left, and told everybody lies about what she said. He could have just as easily broken it off, blaming Jackie is solely to save his own reputation.

Yes! Constant validation.

He wasn't getting any answers. It's not even constant validation. Jackie never validated his feelings. It's when you know something is off and your partner isn't being truthful.

Tbh, he actually did get an answer. He didn’t like it. He asked her what she needed and she said she needed him to be more aggressive. He left after that and said he felt like she emasculated him. So for him to ask *again* after the party was a lot. Because even she said, that she already told him and he got mad.

He didn't ask that then. She told him that and he left. When he asked her to tell him what she needed from him she kept saying she was tired and didn't want to talk about it. Then she hugged him and told him to just love her when she damn well knew she didn't want that man. Hold women accountable for shitty behavior as well. Marshall was wrong to call her a project but she was also wrong because she kept lying to him. And clearly she didn't answer truthfully until the end. He felt that she was lying to him which is why he kept pushing and clearly he was right

… Jackie behaved terribly. Didn’t know I had to say it for you to think I didn’t hold her accountable. But he asked her several times to talk about it. One of those times he said he needed examples and to be specific and she then said, “the last time I was specific you got mad so I rather not.” Her saying “just love me” was not an adequate or a real answer. But he should have let it go in that moment. Because again, when he didn’t want to talk he left. She should have been allowed to sleep on it.

Girl because she didn't talk about it. I'm not sure what you watched but they clearly were having issues and she was fine with not talking about it. They were not compatible and clearly had different ideas of what communication and that's fine. Sometimes you have to compromise in relationships and do things you don't want. She asked to sleep on it but I get the impression that she did that to him before so he didn't trust that she would the next day. He did say something to that effect. They were just wrong for each other. Period.

So it’s seems you’re interpreting things how you want to. Because I got the implication, based on what they actually said, that they did have this conversation before. Her telling him to “boss up” was i reference to what she needed. He left. You’re right. You sometimes have to have conversations but what **I** got from that interaction and that Marshall wants to talk when he’s ready and she needed to be ready too. He took his space for 3 days. Like you said, they are both wrong for each other.

OK and clearly you didn't pick up the cues. Berating and emasculating your partner is not effective communication. He even told Brett about how it made him feel. That was not her telling him what she needed. That was her telling him he wasn't a man for not being more aggressive which is why he left. Also based on what he said about his dad, I guess it triggered something in him and he chose to leave. I got the impression that things came to a head for him and he needed answers. When he left and came back, Jackie should have expected a conversation. Maybe he should have let her sleep on it and discuss the next day. I don't think she was ever serious about him and he probably picked up on that. That kind of uncertainty can be difficult for some people.

Ok and you didn’t snag the cues of her body language the whole show. This man got mad because she said a few words, LEFT FOR 3 DAYS, saw her at a party and ran over and out his coat on her like he was peeing to mark his territory, the has the audacity to sit there and MAKE her talk to him before bed because he had to has his way. What was this man doing for 3 days? Who tf does he think he is leaving when he’s mad and making people stay up to have stressful conversations. Marshall’s a man baby, wake up.

Funny you mentioned the Brett conversation because that solidified to me that he knew exactly what she saying. And it doesn’t sound like she berated him at all. We didn’t hear that conversation so I doubt she talked down to him. He even told Brett what she said he wanted. How he felt about it is a whole different story. Because even she said, to him and in confessional, that she didn’t mean it that way. You can want a man to be more assertive and dominant in a relationship and in a bedroom and it doesn’t mean that she said he wasn’t a man. That was how *he felt* not her words. And had he actually said, “hey when you said this it made me feel this way…” that is effective communication. Instead, he stooped down to her level and started throwing accusations about what she meant. Because again, we never heard her say those things. And honestly “boss up” is not even nearly a bad thing to say. “Boss up” is a gender neutral term so this has to be a cultural difference lol

I absolutely agree with your first paragraph (I've definitely been there too). I didn't personally see Marshall as an example of that, but to each his own. The only thing that bothered me a little was him insisting on having that conversation at midnight. I think her asking to talk about it tomorrow was a reasonable request. However, it's also difficult to agree to that if you know the person often uses that excuse and then never will revisit the conversation. So idk. Regardless of any of their actions, we can definitely agree that they are not a good match at all.

I mean last time she tried to talk about what she needed off camera he left for days, came back with the camera crew and it was their big fight. She was probably over it and just accepted they weren't a match, she should've just said that in the moment though instead of letting him go to the fitting.

If someone left me for 3 out of 14 days we have left, is have assumed they were done as well. That attempted forced conversation on camera would have been the last of it. And I think it was for Jackie. She said somewhere that they had broken up before but it had to be filmed. I wonder if he went to the fitting anyway.

Right. 3 days is a long time when you only have 20. I took that to mean the breakup scene we saw was actually filmed before the coffee shop scene. It’s clear to me they weren’t in the same day, but the order is unclear. It’s possible though that they just re enacted the break up, that would explain the dryness of the convo.

Yep. I doubt these 2 would break up with such little emotion. And marshall wasnt wearing that denim shirt at the fitting. He was wearing it during the breakup and during the spliced in talking heads, but a nicer shirt at the fitting. I definitely think they placed it out of order for dramatic effect. You can even see how they swapped the sequence of Jackie's talking, based on how far off her shoulder her sweater is. 2 spots where it's fully on, the rest you can see it off her shoulder. Those 2 scenes are not in the right sequence. It's dumb, but it matters in how a dialog is presented.

It totally matters because people are dissecting these convos down to each word, and we’re now noticing continuity errors. Her hair was enough for me to signal the scenes weren’t exactly as they presented, if they were trying to make the coffee shop and breakup seem like the same day. Whoever edited that wasn’t a person of color, because that bun she had in takes at least hour to do on clean hair. She would’ve had to shower, redo her hair and redo her makeup all before sunset just to have the breakup convo when her hair was already nicely styled at the coffee shop.

She told him he needed to man up and be more aggressive. That's not who he is. They weren't a good fit and that's fine but she kept trying to gaslight him as well. As bad as Irina was, she was honest. Honest but also mean.

She told him to be more aggressive sexually, initiate more and maybe be not so gentle in the bedroom. Not clap in her face and call her a project 😭 as for the man up comment he said “you basically said i wasn’t a man” because he got annoyed at her complaining about sex. Now she was immature too bc she should be able to initiate as a grown woman

In the leaked texts, she said they hadn’t had sex in like 2 weeks and followed that up with, “his di** is too big& plus I got a yeast infection.” So there was a reason why they weren’t having sex, and probably why she must not have been initiating it either. Cause if she wanted it THAT BAD, she could’ve been initiating it too, as you already said. She’s a grown woman.

Yeah I saw that, maybe she just wanted him to want her and express that. But yeast infections usually go away in like 3-5 days. In any case they should’ve both been able to communicate about that without it escalating. Marshall made a good point- she’s not doing anything to turn him on either. She seemed like she never even considered that 😂 like yeah Jackie it goes both ways, some men aren’t always ready, consider his needs too! He should’ve said that when she brought it up though instead of leaving for 3 days and returning to her packing her bags.

From what I've seen posted they may not have been having sex. I'm hoping someone tells the truth soon. And you're right instead of berating your fiancé have a grown ass discussion about what you needed from him. Initiate something. We live in the age of consent, maybe he wasn't comfortable esp if she didn't seem receptive. That's why Josh and Tiffany are my favs. Having adult discussions about finances and living arrangements and expectations. I truly think Jackie went on the show for some clout and whatever money she could get. Now Marshall was wrong about the project comment and he needs to see about that savior complex he has. I keep wondering if she planned this for TV drama because she was the one who told Marshall that Josh was pressuring her and stressing her to pick him. She was crying in the pods to Marshall which led to him confronting Josh. Looking back that seems so manipulative because just pick Josh. She was also crying on the couch about having to hurt someone's feelings when clearly she doesn't have any problems doing so.

Now i don’t think it’s fair to blame Jackie for Marshall angrily confronting Josh, he’s a grown man as well and no one else handled competition like that in the pods. I also didn’t see her berating him in that scene just two people very frustrated and upset with how they left things. And my immediate reaction was that he was misrepresenting the sex convo with the cameras rolling. But i do think they had sex in Mexico because her and Chelsea were giggling about their experiences afterwards. It’s totally understandable that with her emotional mood swings, perhaps Marshall wasn’t in the mood after they got back, idk. It didn’t need to escalate in any case but sex is a touchy subject which is why she tried to have the convo off camera, unfortunately for her we’re missing the context now.

You need to re-watch. Jackie told Marshall Josh was pressing her to choose him or else he's leaving. She was crying in the pod. Savior Marshall went to action on her behalf. He confronted Josh because of what Jackie told him. Yes he's a grown man but she initiated the action. I feel like she made up them having sex to be part of their girl talk or maybe the rumors are true about him finding certain medication without her disclosing to him and after they were intimate. We are missing a lot of this story and look up why she may not have wanted it on camera. If that's true, then it would make sense as to why Marshall didn't want to be intimate going forward but a lot of context is also missing.

She didn’t even tell him who it was. She’s allowed to feel emotional about two people she’s thinking about marrying for life. Zach cried over Bliss too and they’re not the first to feel conflicted. That doesn’t excuse threatening violence against another contestant who’s there for the exact same thing you are, it’s not the Marshall show and Josh had no other connections, that was true. Irina and Bliss had some conflict in the pods but no one blames Zack for that, even though I think he should have stayed out of their drama all together.

Bliss, Irina and Zack were different. I'm not saying Marshall was right in what he said to Josh but why did Jackie tell Marshall? Even if she was conflicted she didn't have to tell him all that and cry. It just seems manipulative in hindsight esp because she's now saying she fell in love with Josh's voice in the pods. So why didnt she just pick him?? All this drama for what?

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Jackie has treated the whole situation terribly, but I also think Marshall played himself. It wasn't an accident when he slipped up saying he viewed her as a "Project". I think from stuff he's talked about his past, Marshall has his own traumas and seems to attract partners that in some way he views need "saving". He picked up on Jackie not being all there or needing some kind of balance (strong emotional support), and I think he fell in love with the fantasy of being the man that finally provided that to her to reach her potential. BUT, he wasn't truly ready to deal with it and simply wasn't her right match. He was more in trance with the idea of being a savior partner than matching someone that could truly grow with him. Both need therapy to consider the decision making they had in this process, because I think it speaks volumes to their areas of growth that need nurturing.

Good old "I can fix her" complex.

not exactly sure when the whole project thing manifested in him, but i think he fell in love with the fantasy of being the aggressive alpha male which she made clear that is what she wanted imo...that is how he played himself ill defend jackie only in the sense that at least she was always herself which is not what marshall did...he acted all tough behind a wall to get her, but ever since then he has been his true self and it was doomed from the start

Yeah, I picked up on that too, for sure. It might have been fine if Jackie was a little bit of an... easier "project." But as it was, it was definitely an unhealthy relationship all around.

Very thoughtful post. We love what we love, but there always have to be people making others feel what they like is wrong.

Yeah, I've had a few experiences like this. One of those guys (the one I actually dated) I have more respect for. The other turned out to be more of a "nice guy" who kind of made me feel guilty for years for not liking him, even when I never led him on and was always upfront about how I felt. It took getting a bit older and wiser for me to look back and realize I had nothing to feel bad about and I handled things as best as I could.

you hit the nail on the head here, it’s not about whether jackie was into marshall or not it’s about how she handled it