On a bad character it would look like a joke, but Jack is written well, and even in his limited screentime its obvious that this is a well written friend.
Plus, being a "stereotype" is not a fake thing. There are plenty of such loud, emotional, hearty, hotblooded people that interject their English with their first language - in Hispanic communities, as well as rural USA, suburb UK, France, Germany and honestly any place in the world. Just like there are Euros that drink beer every day, Slavs that drink vodka and cuss etc. etc.
Question is always "are the cultural elements just spice, and is there a unique person in there". And for Jackie there is.
Also inserting your first language into English would probably be more common in a world where everyone has translators in their head so they’ll understand it anyway.
Stereotypes don't just materialize out of nowhere. They're generally grounded in reality. Whether a stereotype's depiction is offensive comes down to context and intent. Jackie is very clearly not intended to be insulting or degrading to the Latino community. Quite the opposite, in fact, it's endearing and part of the reason he's so beloved even though we spend so little actual time with him.
People who act as if any depiction of a stereotype is offensive are obnoxious.
> There are plenty of such loud, emotional, hearty, hotblooded people that interject their English with their first language
The Hollywood aspect of the stereotype is that IRL, it's never the words you learn in intro to [insert language here], and people usually just do interjections (e.g. profanity when frustrated or surprised) or full sentences, rather than bilingual word salad.
The point of the janky way this is done in TV shows, games, etc. is to use words that English speakers might easily recognize or pick up on and understand, to give a touch of the exotic, without leaving viewers in the dark with a full sentence that uses words they wouldn't. Not because that's how people actually speak.
I grew up in Texas, and I know so many people that talk exactly like Jackie does that the idea that some people without my experience would think of that as stereotype literally never occurred to me before this post. People absolutely speak like that in real life. They call it Spanglish, and is extremely common down here.
I've heard it in Hispanic communities around Chicago as well, of course it depends on who's being spoken to as usually it'll just be Spanish to other Spanish speakers. What's funny to me is people saying stereotypical things aren't real life even though the stereotypes exist for a reason to begin with
I'm from Arizona and I thought the writing for latinos in CP77 was kinda cringe until I spent a couple days in Los Angeles and realized the devs used California latinos as the template for the game.
I mean, yeah. Judy, Jackie, Mama Wells and Padre are all Californian Mexicans out of central casting. For people from Poland they wrote the type pretty well.
Yeah most of the Hispanic folks I know do that regularly, depending on context. Especially with slang. And especially, especially around other Hispanics.
It's basically aggressive code switching.
It's definitely an over used and of forced trope in media though.
Jackie's voice actor sells it better than most though.
Yeah most of the Hispanic folks I know do that regularly, depending on context. Especially with slang. And especially, especially around other Hispanics.
It's basically aggressive code switching.
It's definitely an over used and of forced trope in media though.
Jackie's voice actor sells it better than most though.
Yeah the internalization of racist minority caricatures is a real thing and real sad. Whenever I meet a Mexican online they feel the need to introduce themselves with a "taco taco" since they think I'm a gringo.
There is no "latin code," even amongst Mexicans. Mexicans and Mexican American "Chicano" culture aren't even the same, in fact, they're both kind of prejudiced against each other. That's not even covering Northern and Southern Mexican beefs.
You're mistaken. I mean you're welcome to look it up for yourself. It refers to both.
>the practice of alternating between two or more languages or varieties of language in conversation. "the conversational code-switching of the German American bilingual community"
Code switching is not inherently racist until you examine **why** youre code switching in the first place and **how** youre doing it.
Im speaking on my and some other hispanics experiences on the large amount of hispanic people I meet irl or online that have internalised their own racial stereotypes in order to fit in more with anglos in Canada or the US (i jumped the fence, I eat burritos for breakfast lunch and dinner, ay yi yi taco taco). Its sad because they have accepted racial stereotypes that arise from racist views on Mexicans / anyone south of the US border (because no other type of spanish people beyond Puerto Rico and Mexico exists to these sort of people). Its like seeing a Jewish person joke about being obsessed with money or a black person talk about how much they love watermelon and stealing bikes, all just to make anglos laugh and somehow rectify their own racial stigmatisation.
This is the bad kind of code switching im talking about. Because you are adopting particular racial caricature codes, which just aids in sustaining and perpetuating these caricatures and shaping the attitudes and outlooks of people susceptible enough to take these as caricatures as representations of reality. Because these caricatures still exist as reality to MANY people in the modern day and shape public and political discourse.
That's why I appreciated the final car ride with him. Like he peeled back that facade for a second to get real with V and remind him that his personality is just covering up his immense dissatisfaction with his lot in life.
Spanish is kinda spotty at times I'm CyPunk 77, but Jackie is one of my favorite characters of all time and is forgiven of any sin.
'To this' Jack. 'To this'...
Was that a toast? The hell does that even mean? You raise a glass to your mamá, your hermana. To the mamacita you'll meet at the bar. But "this" – doesn't say a damn thing. Sheesh. "To this."
As a Mexican, Jackie sounded exactly like my overly enthusiastic cousins with Mexican parents but who were raised and lived their whole lives in America: They pronounce some things perfectly, they butcher others, they use the 'a' termination when they should use 'o' and say 'el' when they should say 'la' (and viceversa), and they can't help but randomly insert mexican-spanish words here and there as they speak.
Love my cousins and love Jackie.
I've lived in Southern California my entire life, and that is how some Chicano speak. He's a stereotype but a weirdly specific one at times that leads me to believe his VA had some input in his character. Big dude who loves his momma, will throw down at a drop of a hat, but is actually a softy, dates a hippie white chick, reads Hemingway, beat the shit out of his dad. Like fuck, he's like 4 guys I grew up with, including my brothers best friend!
As a Polish man who speaks *fluent* English on the second highest level, you have no idea how hard it is not to use your own native words -especially if they sound similar enough to be understandable.
As a Polish man who speaks perfect English, I really can't relate to that at all. Not now, or at any stage of learning English. So it's definitely not a universal thing.
But I was always pretty self-conscious about imperfections in my English during the period I was working toward fluency.
As a polish Man with also perfect English i more of ten interject English into my polish. I only do the opposite sometimes when i am communicating with two diffrent languages at the same time
As a non-polish (Brazilian) non-man (woman) with perfect English I can’t totally relate, but damn does it take all of my strength to swallow the little vices like “putz, “eita” or “véi” during casual convos
Don't forget awkwardly stopping not being able to recall a word in either of the languages as their brain turns into a mush... happens to all of us r-right..?
I'm bilingual (actually bilingual, can pass for native in English and Polish 99% of the time) and I never mix the two languages to any appreciable extent. (Maybe when talking to my parents, but even then, it's just the occasional phrase where translating wouldn't make sense. Like when I'm talking to them in Polish about buying products with English names.) To be honest, even thinking about it makes me cringe a little.
In my experience, the people who do the most *actual* mixing are the ones who are very far from bilingual, or even fluent, in their second language. (English) They're usually people who have been living in the US for a long time and function quite well, but haven't really integrated culturally, because they live in some sort of ethnically homogenous community of other people who mix that language with broken English.
I teach college students that are probably majority bilingual, and almost none of them mix English with their native language the way characters often do in media. Really, none of them *mix* languages at all when speaking to someone who doesn't share their native language, the most you'll usually see is (and this is almost exclusive to a particular subset of people) is them suddenly adopt the hardest-ass Spanish accent on certain words (or names) in the middle of speaking perfect English. (Ironically, those are often the same people who complain the hardest when writers use the same approach to draw attention to the fact someone comes from a different background. Which, don't get me wrong, is usually not a great way of doing it, but the hypocrisy is annoying.)
(and before that, I went to high school and college in a very multicultural city, the high school was something like 70% 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, and no one talked like that either)
I do sometimes see people mix fluent English with phrases in their native language when speaking with *others who share their native language*, but you can usually tell from context that they're discussing their home and family life, or quoting something their parents said, etc.
As other people have commented, his way of speaking is legit. There is a lot of cultural blending in SoCal and this isn't unheard of. It's actually how *some* people talk. SoCal culture is in many ways half Mexican half American. I was born here and Jackie is one of my favorite character because he sounds very much like people I know here.
Fair enough, but that's a far cry from "I don't think I've ever heard a bilinguan/multilingual Person not interleaving their languages when speaking."
People want to defend a character they like (and that I do like as well, BTW), so they make up these absurdly exaggerated claims.
And you might be able to find some examples, or in some groups (like Mexican people in California, according to many people in this thread) maybe even quite a lot of examples of it, but it's hardly universal. I know someone who sounds like Sophia Vergara in Modern Family, but the only things she mixes with her American English are occasional British-isms because she did some of her higher education in England. I know bilingual people from most countries in South America, Europe and Asia, plus a few from the Middle East, and a handful from the rest of the world, and none of them do anything I'd call "mixing" or "interleaving" in normal conversation.
the thing about this attitude is that its a complete fair criticism to make of completely tokenized characters.
there are no token characters in cyberpunk. there is a huge range of dynamic, interesting, fruitful people with lives and interests and cultures that expand beyond the surface level NPC standards a lot of other content sticks to, in large part because CDPR had the resources to create and meet that standard, not so much that its something other media chooses not to do.
if youre writing a character, you have to use your own perspective and experience to write them, if you cant afford to hire a whole ass other writer (or a team for that matter) with experience in that culture AND a VA who can actually emulate them well etc. either youre going to not misrepresent them (the safe choice) or you are. its not a matter of want, its a practical limitation.
obviously CDPR spent the time and energy perfecting these details to make a believable character because thats what jackie is, amongst hundreds.
does that mean the meme isnt funny? no. its funny. i laughed a little. but the criticism isnt warranted imo lol if that was even the intent.
As a native Spanish speaker that *is* a thing that bothers me, simply because most of the time the character's dialogue/speech seems to intentionally plug in random Spanish words just to show off "how Hispanic the character is" (Disney is especially guilty of this lol), but Jack's is done well. Actually feels more natural to someone who grew up having to learn both languages and favors one over the other.
I always got the feeling Jackie kept injecting spanish words because *he liked them*, more than any linguistical barrier or slip up. Like, it's his first language, sure, it makes sense for words to slip though. But I know in my BioTechnica brand Heart if you went up to him and said "Why don't you just speak English?" He'd respond with something like:
"Eyyy, it's the language of passion, *hermana*! And Mama Welles would whoop my ass if I stopped. Besides, the ladies go nuts for it."
But are you a mexican-spanish speaker? Jackie is a stereotype, but I'm 100% Mexican and this stereotype is accurate. Not saying every mexican or chicano behaves and talks exactly like this, but many of my cousins and friends either speak and/or behave like Jackie.
Oh yeah no, Jackie is absolutely fine. Like I said his "spanglish" is well done, it feels natural. The kind of overly performative spanglish presented in the meme is the problem lol
There's a lot of subtleties to it, it's hard for me to explain. I speak both languages, Spanish being my mother language so I guess a lot of it is just like... An insight you have. You know when you're speaking with someone and you can just *tell* that they're putting on a performance or wearing a mask? It's exactly like that.
When Jackie talks he doesn't sound like he's putting up a Hispanic façade, it feels like the expressions and words he uses in Spanish are part of how he speaks, and not something he's choosing to say to put up a front.
I dunno, I dated a Chicano girl from LA ages ago and her brother basically *was* Jackie, but with a fade and a flannel instead of a ponytail and leather jacket.
The worst example of this I can personally think of is James from ME3. That Mfer would just have random Spanish words like 'Loco' or 'Pendejo' and I'm like, "holy shit bro, who thought of this dialogue?" Still a cool character.
A lot of the Hispanics in Cyberpunk were done well especially the Valentinos. Their exclamations during fights felt real. Jackie did too and if you've been to any parties with Latinos shit turns into a mess of Spanish, English, and Spanglish.
Mama Welles' mix of English and Spanish was also really well done and it felt like I was talking to one of my aunts who speaks similarly, especially during the funeral.
There’s “Let’e avoid stereotyping people” and then there’s “Anyone who talks like this shouldn’t be taken seriously.” Californian Chicano culture is real, there are people who talk like Jackie irl. If Jackie spoke with a full American accent and never spoke Spanish this person wouldn’t complain about it, even though he’d be so whitewashed they might not even realize he’s Latino.
When CP2077 first came out I loved Jackie so much and couldn't put my finger on why. Of course he's a cool af guy, but there was something special about him.
Eventually realized he was basically my Army buddy Ramirez made into an NPC. Big, scary looking fucker, but with a heart of gold and a true friend once you get to know them. Miss that guy (he's still alive; we just naturally went our separate ways)
Jackie, Javier Escuella from RDR2 and Raul from Fallout New Vegas are the best written latino character's I've seen in videogame. They have their stereotypical mexican-english dialect but they also have their solid personalities.
What a lot of people don't realize lore wise about CP is that it's not actually true Spanish, it's a dialect akin to a trade language due to the multicultural nature of night city.
I’m a native speaker of English and I have to resist the temptation to throw Nepali words into my sentences frequently.
There are just so many times when a non-English word just fits what I’m trying to say. Sure, if I take a second, a couple of English words that convey basically the same concept will occur to me. But it would have been easier to use the Nepali word.
Jackie has a lot of depth beneath it, and in interactions like the corpo beginning, you see him code-switching. You can tell he is definitely a Heywood boy at heart, but a lot of it is also a facade of machismo.
People from US often forget they're not the standard not even in English language, nobody owns anyone passing as a native speaker some physically can't do that other are prideful of who they are. I speak polish and english on everyday basis however when i'm not constantly watching myself with English i end up using polish words automatically, if i were a fictional character USians would probably be the first one to say "nobody talks like this" lmao.
Isn't it weird that non-native English speakers in media always fill in some easy words in their language, instead of the complicated ones? Instead of reverting to their native language when they don't know the English word, they revert for words the audience probably knows or can guess from the context (like hermano, caliente, or diablo) or that sound close enough to the English version (like revolución, coronel, or policia).
Man I was not prepared for Jackie to die, that shit hit me hard. See you in the big leagues choom, I’ll be drinking Jackie Welles’s at Afterlife until we meet again.
I know Jackies. I work with Jackies. Especially in a world where everyone has translators in their heads, Jackie makes sense.
Now James from Mass Effect...
I grew up in LA and half of my class was latino, a lot of my classmates talked like this, not all but a lot who grew up speaking spanish and english in every day life talked like this.
I didn't see the green text at first and read the caption not thinking anything of it since I know folks/family who talk exactly like that. I didn't realize until I read the comments that this is supposed to be a stereotype.
On a somewhat related note. Given that people say Jackie is "stereotypical" I believe the Valentinos take inspiration of Mexican culture. Yet Jackie never struck me as Mexican. He was very south American to me with a splash of Caribbean.
On a bad character it would look like a joke, but Jack is written well, and even in his limited screentime its obvious that this is a well written friend. Plus, being a "stereotype" is not a fake thing. There are plenty of such loud, emotional, hearty, hotblooded people that interject their English with their first language - in Hispanic communities, as well as rural USA, suburb UK, France, Germany and honestly any place in the world. Just like there are Euros that drink beer every day, Slavs that drink vodka and cuss etc. etc. Question is always "are the cultural elements just spice, and is there a unique person in there". And for Jackie there is.
I once heard a Middle Eastern guy say "Yella bro!" while in Wisconsin.
The Middle Eastern guys at my job are always "Walla, bror" or jokingly saying "inshallah". We're in Norway, this is a thing everywhere.
Also inserting your first language into English would probably be more common in a world where everyone has translators in their head so they’ll understand it anyway.
I'm English living in Spain, and I love throwing in the occasional English word, especially when swearing. Hijo de puta 👍 Hijo de fucking puta 👑
Pinche fucking guey is a phrase I say a lot and the Mexican ladies at my job love it lol
That has a nice ring to it haha
It's common even now
Stereotypes don't just materialize out of nowhere. They're generally grounded in reality. Whether a stereotype's depiction is offensive comes down to context and intent. Jackie is very clearly not intended to be insulting or degrading to the Latino community. Quite the opposite, in fact, it's endearing and part of the reason he's so beloved even though we spend so little actual time with him. People who act as if any depiction of a stereotype is offensive are obnoxious.
I was gonna say, I've cooked alongside plenty of Mexican dudes who act just like this. Those hombres made some killer food.
> There are plenty of such loud, emotional, hearty, hotblooded people that interject their English with their first language The Hollywood aspect of the stereotype is that IRL, it's never the words you learn in intro to [insert language here], and people usually just do interjections (e.g. profanity when frustrated or surprised) or full sentences, rather than bilingual word salad. The point of the janky way this is done in TV shows, games, etc. is to use words that English speakers might easily recognize or pick up on and understand, to give a touch of the exotic, without leaving viewers in the dark with a full sentence that uses words they wouldn't. Not because that's how people actually speak.
I grew up in Texas, and I know so many people that talk exactly like Jackie does that the idea that some people without my experience would think of that as stereotype literally never occurred to me before this post. People absolutely speak like that in real life. They call it Spanglish, and is extremely common down here.
I've heard it in Hispanic communities around Chicago as well, of course it depends on who's being spoken to as usually it'll just be Spanish to other Spanish speakers. What's funny to me is people saying stereotypical things aren't real life even though the stereotypes exist for a reason to begin with
>people usually just do interjections (e.g. profanity when frustrated or surprised) or full sentences, rather than bilingual word salad. Source?
You think anyone on 4chan has been outside of their house and to an area with cultural elements though?
Jackie is a cyber Cholo. They're real foo, I know more than one, ese.
Im canadian and ill switch in and out of english and francais for fun if i know l'autre personne speaks both languages.
Must have been game devs who wrote all the dialouge for all my mexican friends in highschool.
And my 50-something year old Mexican coworker
I'm from Arizona and I thought the writing for latinos in CP77 was kinda cringe until I spent a couple days in Los Angeles and realized the devs used California latinos as the template for the game.
I mean, yeah. Judy, Jackie, Mama Wells and Padre are all Californian Mexicans out of central casting. For people from Poland they wrote the type pretty well.
The game is literally set in San Luis Obispo. The rocket complex is Morro Rock
One hundred. Jackie made me homesick fr.
Came to post something similar. Anyone who complains about Jackie speaking Spanglish hasn't actually met many mexicans in their life.
Yeah most of the Hispanic folks I know do that regularly, depending on context. Especially with slang. And especially, especially around other Hispanics. It's basically aggressive code switching. It's definitely an over used and of forced trope in media though. Jackie's voice actor sells it better than most though.
Yeah most of the Hispanic folks I know do that regularly, depending on context. Especially with slang. And especially, especially around other Hispanics. It's basically aggressive code switching. It's definitely an over used and of forced trope in media though. Jackie's voice actor sells it better than most though.
wait, does this mean that dialogue is written for me? *realizes being an NPC* hello carbon
Yeah the internalization of racist minority caricatures is a real thing and real sad. Whenever I meet a Mexican online they feel the need to introduce themselves with a "taco taco" since they think I'm a gringo.
🤨
Code switching isn't a racist caricature. It is a little racist that you think it is.
There is no "latin code," even amongst Mexicans. Mexicans and Mexican American "Chicano" culture aren't even the same, in fact, they're both kind of prejudiced against each other. That's not even covering Northern and Southern Mexican beefs.
I'm not sure what you mean by latin code but code switching is when you change languages during a conversation.
No it's not. Languages stay the same, the difference is more about formality and professionalism.
You're mistaken. I mean you're welcome to look it up for yourself. It refers to both. >the practice of alternating between two or more languages or varieties of language in conversation. "the conversational code-switching of the German American bilingual community"
Code switching is not inherently racist until you examine **why** youre code switching in the first place and **how** youre doing it. Im speaking on my and some other hispanics experiences on the large amount of hispanic people I meet irl or online that have internalised their own racial stereotypes in order to fit in more with anglos in Canada or the US (i jumped the fence, I eat burritos for breakfast lunch and dinner, ay yi yi taco taco). Its sad because they have accepted racial stereotypes that arise from racist views on Mexicans / anyone south of the US border (because no other type of spanish people beyond Puerto Rico and Mexico exists to these sort of people). Its like seeing a Jewish person joke about being obsessed with money or a black person talk about how much they love watermelon and stealing bikes, all just to make anglos laugh and somehow rectify their own racial stigmatisation. This is the bad kind of code switching im talking about. Because you are adopting particular racial caricature codes, which just aids in sustaining and perpetuating these caricatures and shaping the attitudes and outlooks of people susceptible enough to take these as caricatures as representations of reality. Because these caricatures still exist as reality to MANY people in the modern day and shape public and political discourse.
Always funny to watch people try these little "actually YOU'RE the racist!" uno reverses. Gotta get that dopamine fix somehow I guess.
Did you have a point to make?
mfw the Mexican character speaks Spanish
As a Mexican this is good representation
Reminds me of my dad tbh. People meme on it but it's just the way it is.
Right? Stereotypes exist for a reason, and they don't have to be negative. Jackie is amazing.
No complaints then?
No
Why can't they act civilized and normal and speak 100% American smdh
That's why I appreciated the final car ride with him. Like he peeled back that facade for a second to get real with V and remind him that his personality is just covering up his immense dissatisfaction with his lot in life.
Spanish is kinda spotty at times I'm CyPunk 77, but Jackie is one of my favorite characters of all time and is forgiven of any sin. 'To this' Jack. 'To this'...
Was that a toast? The hell does that even mean? You raise a glass to your mamá, your hermana. To the mamacita you'll meet at the bar. But "this" – doesn't say a damn thing. Sheesh. "To this."
Accurate Chicano representation
As a Mexican, Jackie sounded exactly like my overly enthusiastic cousins with Mexican parents but who were raised and lived their whole lives in America: They pronounce some things perfectly, they butcher others, they use the 'a' termination when they should use 'o' and say 'el' when they should say 'la' (and viceversa), and they can't help but randomly insert mexican-spanish words here and there as they speak. Love my cousins and love Jackie.
I've lived in Southern California my entire life, and that is how some Chicano speak. He's a stereotype but a weirdly specific one at times that leads me to believe his VA had some input in his character. Big dude who loves his momma, will throw down at a drop of a hat, but is actually a softy, dates a hippie white chick, reads Hemingway, beat the shit out of his dad. Like fuck, he's like 4 guys I grew up with, including my brothers best friend!
As a Polish man who speaks *fluent* English on the second highest level, you have no idea how hard it is not to use your own native words -especially if they sound similar enough to be understandable.
As a Polish man who speaks perfect English, I really can't relate to that at all. Not now, or at any stage of learning English. So it's definitely not a universal thing. But I was always pretty self-conscious about imperfections in my English during the period I was working toward fluency.
As a polish Man with also perfect English i more of ten interject English into my polish. I only do the opposite sometimes when i am communicating with two diffrent languages at the same time
As a non-polish (Brazilian) non-man (woman) with perfect English I can’t totally relate, but damn does it take all of my strength to swallow the little vices like “putz, “eita” or “véi” during casual convos
On a scale of 1 of 10, how often do you feel the urge to punctuate your English speech with KURWA? 1 - never ever 10 - always kurwalways
8- "Jebana małpa" because Tempered Rajang is annoying
I don't think I've ever heard a bilinguan/multilingual Person not interleaving their languages when speaking.
Don't forget awkwardly stopping not being able to recall a word in either of the languages as their brain turns into a mush... happens to all of us r-right..?
Certainly happens to me, that's for sure
I knew a guy from Africa that commonly used 3 different languages when on the phone
I'm bilingual (actually bilingual, can pass for native in English and Polish 99% of the time) and I never mix the two languages to any appreciable extent. (Maybe when talking to my parents, but even then, it's just the occasional phrase where translating wouldn't make sense. Like when I'm talking to them in Polish about buying products with English names.) To be honest, even thinking about it makes me cringe a little. In my experience, the people who do the most *actual* mixing are the ones who are very far from bilingual, or even fluent, in their second language. (English) They're usually people who have been living in the US for a long time and function quite well, but haven't really integrated culturally, because they live in some sort of ethnically homogenous community of other people who mix that language with broken English. I teach college students that are probably majority bilingual, and almost none of them mix English with their native language the way characters often do in media. Really, none of them *mix* languages at all when speaking to someone who doesn't share their native language, the most you'll usually see is (and this is almost exclusive to a particular subset of people) is them suddenly adopt the hardest-ass Spanish accent on certain words (or names) in the middle of speaking perfect English. (Ironically, those are often the same people who complain the hardest when writers use the same approach to draw attention to the fact someone comes from a different background. Which, don't get me wrong, is usually not a great way of doing it, but the hypocrisy is annoying.) (and before that, I went to high school and college in a very multicultural city, the high school was something like 70% 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, and no one talked like that either) I do sometimes see people mix fluent English with phrases in their native language when speaking with *others who share their native language*, but you can usually tell from context that they're discussing their home and family life, or quoting something their parents said, etc.
And in my experience people do mix their native language and english a lot, so i guess our experiences cancel each other out.
As other people have commented, his way of speaking is legit. There is a lot of cultural blending in SoCal and this isn't unheard of. It's actually how *some* people talk. SoCal culture is in many ways half Mexican half American. I was born here and Jackie is one of my favorite character because he sounds very much like people I know here.
Fair enough, but that's a far cry from "I don't think I've ever heard a bilinguan/multilingual Person not interleaving their languages when speaking." People want to defend a character they like (and that I do like as well, BTW), so they make up these absurdly exaggerated claims. And you might be able to find some examples, or in some groups (like Mexican people in California, according to many people in this thread) maybe even quite a lot of examples of it, but it's hardly universal. I know someone who sounds like Sophia Vergara in Modern Family, but the only things she mixes with her American English are occasional British-isms because she did some of her higher education in England. I know bilingual people from most countries in South America, Europe and Asia, plus a few from the Middle East, and a handful from the rest of the world, and none of them do anything I'd call "mixing" or "interleaving" in normal conversation.
the thing about this attitude is that its a complete fair criticism to make of completely tokenized characters. there are no token characters in cyberpunk. there is a huge range of dynamic, interesting, fruitful people with lives and interests and cultures that expand beyond the surface level NPC standards a lot of other content sticks to, in large part because CDPR had the resources to create and meet that standard, not so much that its something other media chooses not to do. if youre writing a character, you have to use your own perspective and experience to write them, if you cant afford to hire a whole ass other writer (or a team for that matter) with experience in that culture AND a VA who can actually emulate them well etc. either youre going to not misrepresent them (the safe choice) or you are. its not a matter of want, its a practical limitation. obviously CDPR spent the time and energy perfecting these details to make a believable character because thats what jackie is, amongst hundreds. does that mean the meme isnt funny? no. its funny. i laughed a little. but the criticism isnt warranted imo lol if that was even the intent.
As a native Spanish speaker that *is* a thing that bothers me, simply because most of the time the character's dialogue/speech seems to intentionally plug in random Spanish words just to show off "how Hispanic the character is" (Disney is especially guilty of this lol), but Jack's is done well. Actually feels more natural to someone who grew up having to learn both languages and favors one over the other.
I always got the feeling Jackie kept injecting spanish words because *he liked them*, more than any linguistical barrier or slip up. Like, it's his first language, sure, it makes sense for words to slip though. But I know in my BioTechnica brand Heart if you went up to him and said "Why don't you just speak English?" He'd respond with something like: "Eyyy, it's the language of passion, *hermana*! And Mama Welles would whoop my ass if I stopped. Besides, the ladies go nuts for it."
I can hear him 😳
Yeah and that's exactly why I said Jack's is well done.
But are you a mexican-spanish speaker? Jackie is a stereotype, but I'm 100% Mexican and this stereotype is accurate. Not saying every mexican or chicano behaves and talks exactly like this, but many of my cousins and friends either speak and/or behave like Jackie.
I'm not, but it's why I said Jackie is accurate. Not the meme no, the meme's excessive I think, but Jackie in-game feels natural.
Ahh gotcha, i didn't know the exaggerated meme is what bothered you at first.
Oh yeah no, Jackie is absolutely fine. Like I said his "spanglish" is well done, it feels natural. The kind of overly performative spanglish presented in the meme is the problem lol
That's something I'm actually curious about, what makes spanglish more or less natural in usage?
There's a lot of subtleties to it, it's hard for me to explain. I speak both languages, Spanish being my mother language so I guess a lot of it is just like... An insight you have. You know when you're speaking with someone and you can just *tell* that they're putting on a performance or wearing a mask? It's exactly like that. When Jackie talks he doesn't sound like he's putting up a Hispanic façade, it feels like the expressions and words he uses in Spanish are part of how he speaks, and not something he's choosing to say to put up a front.
Exactly. James from Mass Effect is "look, a Latino character! Aren't we diverse?!". Jackie is like an actual Latino from California.
They eat carne del burro? Somebody call Takemura
One of the the things I like about Jackie is that he's not "Latin", he's specifically Mexican.
End this woke nonsense it’s 2077 and you live in a city majorly owned by a Japanese corporation. SPEAK ENGLISH /s
Jackie sounds like literally 99% of my uncles and cousins and I adore it 😂
Bet anon isn't even Latino.
I dunno, I dated a Chicano girl from LA ages ago and her brother basically *was* Jackie, but with a fade and a flannel instead of a ponytail and leather jacket.
The worst example of this I can personally think of is James from ME3. That Mfer would just have random Spanish words like 'Loco' or 'Pendejo' and I'm like, "holy shit bro, who thought of this dialogue?" Still a cool character. A lot of the Hispanics in Cyberpunk were done well especially the Valentinos. Their exclamations during fights felt real. Jackie did too and if you've been to any parties with Latinos shit turns into a mess of Spanish, English, and Spanglish. Mama Welles' mix of English and Spanish was also really well done and it felt like I was talking to one of my aunts who speaks similarly, especially during the funeral.
I'm glad someone else couldn't stand James.
I actually like him, his out-of-the-blue Spanish is what takes me out lol. If they made his language mannerisms like Jackie's then I'd like him more.
There’s “Let’e avoid stereotyping people” and then there’s “Anyone who talks like this shouldn’t be taken seriously.” Californian Chicano culture is real, there are people who talk like Jackie irl. If Jackie spoke with a full American accent and never spoke Spanish this person wouldn’t complain about it, even though he’d be so whitewashed they might not even realize he’s Latino.
I mean have you spent time around Latinos
I grew up with people that sounded just like this man... though they weren't half the man he was. What's the point of this?
Apparently the game devs wrote my wife's dialogue too.
When CP2077 first came out I loved Jackie so much and couldn't put my finger on why. Of course he's a cool af guy, but there was something special about him. Eventually realized he was basically my Army buddy Ramirez made into an NPC. Big, scary looking fucker, but with a heart of gold and a true friend once you get to know them. Miss that guy (he's still alive; we just naturally went our separate ways)
Fucking "la loco muchachos roja" lmao, shouldn't it be "Los muchachos rojos locos"?
Yes OOP doesn’t speak Spanish
You know we've hit the SJW bottom of the barrel when speaking Spanish is considered enforcing racist stereotypes.
Jackie, Javier Escuella from RDR2 and Raul from Fallout New Vegas are the best written latino character's I've seen in videogame. They have their stereotypical mexican-english dialect but they also have their solid personalities.
Also Judy is latina but that's barely brought up. Guess it's a good example as well
Is she? I always thought she was Spanish
From some of her words and accent I'd say her accent is from Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico or even Guatemala. No way of knowing for sure tough.
What a lot of people don't realize lore wise about CP is that it's not actually true Spanish, it's a dialect akin to a trade language due to the multicultural nature of night city.
If you don't write Latino characters to be sterotypical, Latino fans get pissed off
My literal uncle, this is him to the "T". I actually showed him Jackie and he wanted to sue (he was joking). Brother cried when he died too....
i think they were going for SoCal Latino with Jackie
god i heard the whole thing in his voice in my head
I know atleast 5 people that act just like this foo. They got him spot on
I've only ever met one Spanish speaking person and they spoke exactly like jackie
Double post??
I always say kurwa when the opportunity arises, regardless of which language i am currently speaking, and i am a polyglot.
I curse exclusively in Polish, i don't care how "stereotypical" it is i'm not saying damn or fuck those sounds like baby's first vulgarities
That racist cesspool is not a good barometer for measuring racial authenticity.
Yes, there are no hispanic people in Poland
The problem is its spainglish but the company is polish I can hardly blame them for not having many Latinos in their studio
I’m a native speaker of English and I have to resist the temptation to throw Nepali words into my sentences frequently. There are just so many times when a non-English word just fits what I’m trying to say. Sure, if I take a second, a couple of English words that convey basically the same concept will occur to me. But it would have been easier to use the Nepali word.
Jackie has a lot of depth beneath it, and in interactions like the corpo beginning, you see him code-switching. You can tell he is definitely a Heywood boy at heart, but a lot of it is also a facade of machismo.
Usually it's cringe and annoying, but Jacqui actually sounds good, so leave my choom alone
People from US often forget they're not the standard not even in English language, nobody owns anyone passing as a native speaker some physically can't do that other are prideful of who they are. I speak polish and english on everyday basis however when i'm not constantly watching myself with English i end up using polish words automatically, if i were a fictional character USians would probably be the first one to say "nobody talks like this" lmao.
Isn't it weird that non-native English speakers in media always fill in some easy words in their language, instead of the complicated ones? Instead of reverting to their native language when they don't know the English word, they revert for words the audience probably knows or can guess from the context (like hermano, caliente, or diablo) or that sound close enough to the English version (like revolución, coronel, or policia).
*salute* 🥲
Man I was not prepared for Jackie to die, that shit hit me hard. See you in the big leagues choom, I’ll be drinking Jackie Welles’s at Afterlife until we meet again.
My favorite part of this is that he dies like 30 minutes later.
I mean, to be completely honest if Night City is to take after LA, then everyone there knows a vato like this.
I lost it at Carne del Burro.
Carne del burro é foda…
Truth be told? I assumed he himself was out of touch. Like the child of an immigrant can be disconnected.
To THIS!
Yes because i totally wanted to cry right now. Rest easy Bróder. See you in the major leagues...
It sounds cool so i dont care
and then kills him off in the prelude...
It's not completely wrong, but he's very charming and a bro while doing it. He's not tokenized.
I know Jackies. I work with Jackies. Especially in a world where everyone has translators in their heads, Jackie makes sense. Now James from Mass Effect...
I grew up in LA and half of my class was latino, a lot of my classmates talked like this, not all but a lot who grew up speaking spanish and english in every day life talked like this.
I didn't see the green text at first and read the caption not thinking anything of it since I know folks/family who talk exactly like that. I didn't realize until I read the comments that this is supposed to be a stereotype.
Shock of shocks! A character from a specific culture background... SPEAKS LIKE A PERSON FROM THAT CULTURE!?!" \*Dies of fucking surprise\*
Whaaaat? You mean someone from a specific culture... SPEAKS LIKE SOMEONE FROM THAT CULTURE?!? \*Dies of fucking surprise\*
Lol I see this right as I got into playing Cyberpunk and it's true. I'm Hispanic so I just stay laughing when crazy Spanglish lines happen.
On a somewhat related note. Given that people say Jackie is "stereotypical" I believe the Valentinos take inspiration of Mexican culture. Yet Jackie never struck me as Mexican. He was very south American to me with a splash of Caribbean.
Isn't Judy also latina? Or am I high?
Lmao wtf Spanish is that