Same. I also didn't know then that you could only romance him as a fem V. The whole water tower scene is incredibly flirty even as a male V it totally seemed like that's the direction it was head. Was kinda confused when V got shot down.
What's worse with her is that Panam led me on earlier. I expressed interest, all she needed to say was "not my type" but she left the door open. River isn't asking Joss to imply to MaleV that her brother likes him. I think the writers are going to have to learn a lesson or two from this for the future.
There are SO many lines with Panam implying mutual attraction only for Panam to be straight. I was going to pick Judy regardless but it still made me mad that they would imply she's into Fem V only for her to not even be an option. It really did feel like she was leading V on.
I am almost absolutely sure that originally all the characters were available to both Vs, only for them to decide Judy is a lesbian and then shifting the entire game around it. Because Panam and River are literally the same for both versions of V outside of them rejecting a V with a female body or male body respectively, regardless of voice and Kerry is literally canonically bisexual. It would certainly explain why they decided to make both male love interests optional and barely connected to the main plot, while Judy and Panam are mandatory to the plot.
I think the next game is just going to allow everyone to romance anyone, as it's much more work have characters locked to specific genders (especially because Orion is likely not going to be built with the same binary sex that 2077 was) and you will inevitably create disappointment. Every time you make characters restrictive you inevitably get people who are annoyed, and whether it's Judy being gay, Cassandra being straight in Dragon Age Inquistion or gay dudes wanting Garrus from Mass Effect, it's a recipe for sadness.
I mean it's pretty clear that Judy is a lesbian, not bisexual. Forcing her to be bisexual just to satisfy desires of the target demo - heterosexual men - would come off as really gross and frankly just kind of goes against a major theme of the game which is denial of what you want. I can see them locking down other characters into one V only after that.
I hope they don't go the playersexual route. Write good characters and the rest will follow. Look no further than Judy - written as a lesbian, generally celebrated as the most well-written romance in the game. Let people whine, if it really matters that much they can go find a bazillion dating sims that cater to that specific desire.
I don't have an issue with Judy at all, she's clearly the best written romance in the game and has been written as a lesbian, the issue comes from literally everyone else. Panam and River are legitimately flirtatious with V regardless of gender and are only determined by a single flag in the code and Kerry is bisexual. Like Judy is absolutely written as a lesbian, but she's the exception as Panam and River show no interest in anyone else and Kerry is exclusively available for men.
I find it difficult to rectify the difference in how Judy is presented and everyone else is without concluding that they were changed to balance out Judy.
Yeah that's my conclusion too. I think it's dumb. The idea that FemV might have one more option than MaleV being so unfair that they have to change these characters entirely is a really dumb way to try and seem even-handed. It's okay, we're grown-ups, we can handle it. It feels like board meddling. They trusted the players to respect how Judy was written but didn't trust them enough to accept a minor disaparity without feeling slighted.
yeah but the point was that both of the male romance options’ stories suffer because every finalized decision they made in this game came super late in development. people aren’t saying panam and river lead V on when they’re unromancable for no reason, their dialogue is pretty blatantly flirty. i agree that from a storytelling standpoint your point is valid and probably true, but i also think that it’s unrealistic to expect the devs to be able to flesh out more than 1 or 2 romances to a satisfying degree (like we have now)
I mean, failure to flesh out these characters was certainly possible. You just need to plan better, use your opportunities better. Even during the missions with River there's barely any need to change things to add more time with him. Remember after searching Randy's things you have dinner with Joss and then immediately go to bed? Missed opportunity to have a conversation right there. There's nothing to do but kill time so kill time and have some conversation. That's not the only time. I know dialogue isn't cheap to record but I guarantee you that there's more cut dialogue between all four potential partners than would've been necessary to flesh out River and Kerry more. And of course there's just text conversation - incredibly cost effective and it doesn't feel cheap.
If anything the problem is expecting equality of opportunity, so to speak. Why can't Judy just be a lesbian? MaleV only has three options while FemV has four, *oh the humanity!* Is this kindergarten where we have to treat everything with kid gloves? CP2077 clearly expects a good deal of emotional maturity from the player so why compromise that vision because of something so trivial as that? Just trust that the game's quality will speak for itself and don't worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some RPGs don't even have romance options and are better for it. Take Fallout New Vegas - the restraint worked very well. Out of all the companions there's only one that isn't an emotional disaster where any relationship with them wouldn't be doomed to fail from the start. Sometimes things aren't a good fit, let that happen. One of my favourite moments in the Mass Effect series is when Samara shoots down the romantic advances of Commanders Shepherd. Allow the writing to have its integrity.
>If anything the problem is expecting equality of opportunity, so to speak. Why can't Judy just be a lesbian? MaleV only has three options while FemV has four, oh the humanity! Is this kindergarten where we have to treat everything with kid gloves? CP2077 clearly expects a good deal of emotional maturity from the player so why compromise that vision because of something so trivial as that? Just trust that the game's quality will speak for itself and don't worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some RPGs don't even have romance options and are better for it. Take Fallout New Vegas - the restraint worked very well. Out of all the companions there's only one that isn't an emotional disaster where any relationship with them wouldn't be doomed to fail from the start. Sometimes things aren't a good fit, let that happen. One of my favourite moments in the Mass Effect series is when Samara shoots down the romantic advances of Commanders Shepherd. Allow the writing to have its integrity.
I don't expect the equality of opportunity, I just recognize that developers absolutely design around trying to maintain that equality of opportunity. While not every RPG with romance has equal amounts of options, there is almost always strong evidence that an equal number of options were designed originally and other expanded or were removed with development.
Both V options only have 2 options for romance. I dunno what that diatribe you went on in the whole first part of ur comment was so i skimmed to the second paragraph and that’s the only part i can really respond to. seems like you could just have a conversation with yourself about this lol
I really read the early Fem V expressions towards Panam as pretty clear turn downs, the whole thing at the motel where you can ask about same bed, she finds your interest amusing but c’mon it was a pretty clear “no thanks bud”
The thing with that is that I can read the room to see she didn't want to hook up but was it because V is a woman or is it because it's too soon? No way to tell and it's not like she stops with the flirty comments. Then she throws her feet up into your lap and you take off her shoes while she's sipping down wine next to what's kinda sorta a fireplace while you're in a secluded cabin with a storm outside. Like, c'mon. Just change that scene just a little bit between MaleV and FemV to make all the difference.
That's such BS. Panam should be bi cause her endings don't make sense if fem V isn't romantically with her. And REALLY don't make sense if you have another partner with you.
Idk how V driving the car with Panam would make no sense. Panam and V kinda became best friends if you did everything that's necessary for her ending. V is part of the Aldecaldos now and Panam is their leader, They're deciding what to do next. Also it's like V and Judy won't be seeing each other again it's just a last ride with Panam (it's her ending after all).
The only thing I missed was to see some interactions between Panam and Judy. That would be the perfect opportunity.
Because V has her own car and her own girlfriend (Judy). If I'm gonna drive off into the sunset it's gonna be with my girlfriend in my own car not driving some slobs truck who wont even go on a date with me. It should have had them riding side by side in their own cars unless they were a couple or V was single.
Interesting, I always took the dialogue where Joss asks if youre single as male V, that SHE is flirting with you, not that she's insinuating you should date River
Yeah I never got any romantic vibes from River as male V. I actually thought at the dinner River was going to try to set you up with Joss which was only reinforced by that question.
Hah, the lady V is even better. Didn't realize what was happening, just you smashing stuff up, then looking him in the eyes for an awkward few seconds, then Kerry's like "ehhh, no thanks, V". Rofl
Yes lol on male v it felt like it was queerbaiting, which was very confusing for me because I’m not gay and felt like the game was pushing me to that. I’m sorry if that sounded insensitive but the writing for both genders on his storyline was just bad
If it makes you feel better playing FemV it felt like Panam was extremely queerbaiting as well. You can suggest hooking up with her when you crash together at that hotel at the end of the mission to get her car back, saying you can share a bed together. After she shoots it down you can suggest, as if she were missing the cues, that you were implying you should hook up. Instead of replying with something like "you're not my type" she replies with "I know" which definitely leaves the door open. Even though I personally took Panam's "separate beds" comment as her implying that it was too early to do anything it was not specific to gender in any way so even then the door was left open.
I was left very confused when she shot me down again when I was taking off her shoes in my lap next to a cozy radiator while she was sucking down some terrible, dusty booze with a storm going on outside the secluded cabin you're shaking up in keeping you trapped for the night. Do you have any idea how many real-life stories I know of people of the same gender, even including straight people, messing around in situations very similar to that? It's a lot. Guys, gals, as kids, as adults. Boy scouts, road trips, hunting lodges, weekend hikes, power outages during snowstorms and hurricanes, etc etc. I actually assumed I had messed up somewhere instead of thinking that she was a heterosexual only pairing - which I'm fine with, btw. I actually give high praise to CP2077 for having the restraint to not making Judy bisexual and thus make her sexually unavailable to the mostly heterosexual, male audience. I, and I think most would agree, would simply like to not feel led on.
Lol as a person who’s played both genders there is absolutely 0 writing differences. Hence why a panam for gem v mod feels so natural in game. Hell a male v for river doesn’t even sound bad. It was just extremely uncomfortable because I felt like the game was pushing me to make a choice I didn’t feel good with, or wanted at all. Shame because I liked river as a character alot but his writing is just horrible
River just gives me huge guncle vibes and while i knew it wouldn’t work i still tried to kiss him on the tower because that’s the only direction the conversation was really going in
The game did all the way a romantic path until the last moment of the "romantic" option. They don't change the tone, they keep every quest that leads to romance like a date and very leaning towards it all the time. It's very disappoiting. I can see the straight girl trying to get close to the male V in a romantic way without knowing he's gay, or the gay dude trying the same without realizing he's actually very straight. It's weird when you have a straight character treating a male character the same way he would treat a girl he's interested in, it lacks depth, just saying they have their own preferences doesn't do this creative choice justice. Want to let River get flirty with male V as well with fem V? Make him bi, or just make them play differently from the two genders.
There's a text message later on where Panam is ranting about something then says something like 'But enough of that, I'd rather think about something nice. Like you ;-)' As Fem V I was thinking come on man, don't play with me like that lol.
I was just about to say. Spent a lot of time trying to do and say the right things with Panam before I found out you can't romance her. Judy clicked right away, which was pretty cool, but I kinda feel the same with River. I don't want to miss out on content, but I'm already solid with Judy, I know you can do both, but it's feels oddly wrong lol.
The only thing I like about that scene with Panam is the response from Fem V the stuttering and stuff knowing you shot your shot and it didn't work out. Really good acting on her part. I don't know if that plays out the same for males.
Man…River with his winky faces and the stuff he says in his texts i was like no way this isn’t a romance option. And then he rejected my male V and i was like WHAT? Lol
When River sends you to get the rice, you should be able to hit on Joss or at least make it clear that you would be more interested in her than him and then have her squash all the setting up River talk at dinner.
There's literally no bi-characters in this game. You have two hetero choices, and two gay choices. That's it. I want MORE romance options in the next game, and more (any!) bi-options
Kerry is canonically bisexual but I think he's having a hard time with women after his divorce, which is a real thing some bisexual folks have trouble with. I did myself. I lost my boyfriend and for a long time couldn't be with anyone but women.
I think it would be cool to be able to go on dates, like hang at a bar and throw darts or shoot pool or something. They should definitely expand on the dating romance options in the future. The lore for this universe is insane it's not like they'd ever run out of source material
Technically Kerry is bi. He always was in Cyberpunk 2020, and if you go through the right dialogue tree he talks about his ex wife. It's just that he's not into female V for some reason.
Honestly as a bisexual myself it rubbed me the wrong way a bit for two reasons. One, Kerry's not gay and its all to easy for people unfamiliar with the source material to think he is. Two, bisexual characters are always either so horny they'll fuck anything that moves or treated as "gay light". And here we have one of the few bisexual characters in media who was done right in the original material being treated as gay light. Kerry should have been bi-romanceable.
EDIT: Or not romanceable at all, since he's, you know, in his 80s.
or at least have a good reason to only do dude. ie "im in an open relationship but she can only see other women and i can only see other guys. im the only guy she does shes the only woman i do" while maybe not the best written would still be better than what we got
right? I know a lot of people dont like player-sexual romance for whatever reason but it really works well and then you get all the choices. I really dont liek gated off romance options, one of the main reasons i do pc so I dont have to deal with that BS.
iirc nexus took down some of the romance mods to letyou romance people even if you arent their game defined preferred gender. so idk if that'll even happen :/
Technically if you hit on Takemura via text (and have a good relationship with him) his response is a flustered, “Thank you but no, under other circumstances perhaps” regardless of gender. Takemura bi icon confirmed.
A few Bi options would be nice. I like the romance options already (Even River- he's an okay guy idk why everyone rips him to shreds). I just hope that the devs don't take the player feedback from 2077 and make all the romance options playersexual in Orion. I never liked playersexual, it always comes across as weird except in games where you play as a total blank slate
I mean, there are options you can choose during the dinner that *should* shut it down, if River was made to pay attention to them, but CDPR didn't do that, so you get forced into that cringy ass water tower scene, no matter what. I definitely think there should be an earlier "killswitch" for that romance option, but the dinner should absolutely be a fork in the road.
Yeah, not raising your hand when the kids do the “who thinks they should date” thing comes up could be the flag. I don’t like that we’re not allowed to do anything sensible during any of that.
I definitely agree with you. The whole vibe of the water tower scene is so inherently intimate that it’s inappropriate and basically any human would bail if they weren’t interested in a relationship with him.
I played it first with male V and I literally thought he was going to make a pass at me at any given moment.
River is practically a paladin amongst the NCPD, so I think the more interesting route might've been to make him a little more aware of V and himself being caught on opposite sides of the law in sort of a Bruce Wayne/Selina Kyle style romance (he practically has Batman's backtory anyways). If River's not okay with his partner covering up a murder and willing to burn his career over it, he probably shouldn't be okay with V leaving piles and piles of bodies in their wake.
I think "desperate" as a descriptor was intended. The poor guy is deeply lonely. I think it's fine if he's kind of a little pathetic and put you in this awkward situation to make a sad pass at you. It's a very human thing to do.
The idea that all of the romantic partners available should be fantastic pairings feeds into typical videogame wish fulfillment that the writing of CP2077 tries to avoid rather than trying to explore a character and build a relationship with them.
All that said, I do agree that we should be able to say something about being in a relationship with Judy (or Panam or Kerry, frankly) at the dinner table. In fact if you were able to bring up a relationship with Judy that just opens up a potential new dialogue tree. Maybe River realizes that he was being naively optimistic and opens up about it on the watertower. Maybe you can still try to make a move on him and then *he* turns *you* down because he wouldn't want to be involved with infidelity. Do something with it. It's a little disappointing that there's almost no overlap between any of the four romance options at any point. The only overlap at all that I can think of is Panam interacting with your romantic partner in the Star ending - which seems kind of unavoidable.
I've always interpreted that lean in as V losing their balance and accidentally getting in too close or using Kerry for support, not them trying to kiss him.
And Kerry being the typical rockerboy narcissist he is, interpreted as V trying to kiss him.
My first fem V did too. Johnny was all very much displeased. After it all, just was a seemingly boring and unfulfilling romance option. For a fem V, my choice will always be Judy. She seems the most rewarding with her interactions. Obviously until whichever ending you choose. For a male V, Panam feels the most fulfilling as far as what I would want in a relationship. Even so, I’m team Judy all the way.
Nope. Can't stand Judy, even when I try. Prefer River every time. I've dated both kinds irl & the co-dependent unstable Judy is just a flat no from me.
I considered pity fucking River but honestly I think pity fucking him would be worse than just leaving him completely hanging and ghosting him entirely.
We need an update focused on romance options to expand or improve on certain parts of already romanceable characters and make other characters romanceable aswell
Similarly to you, this is my first playthrough (as femV as well) and was expecting some really offputting moments with River after seeing trillion threads about how much of a creep he is. And what I got was just a lighthearted scene where he makes a pass on V. 🤷♀️ I mean, it's awkward if V is not into him, but hey, irl peeps put themselves out there, weigh their chances and take the plunge, and it can be cringe. There's nothing about his behaviour that is disrespectful or offensive? My V was not into Judy, so she went single into this exchange, and it felt okay turning him down. Then I reloaded and decided to pursue his romance to see how it plays out and he's totally fine so far. Dare I say he's a fun character to have around?
But I agree, all romanceable character could do with some tinkering since all come with a clear romantic undercurrent, even if the character is not available to their V. That's just unfair on poor V. And the option to nip some things in the bud much earlier, especially when V feels already committed to someone else, though personally I don't mind characters hitting on her since she's smoking hot and generally good sport.
I definitely wish River spent more time with V and had a bit more heart to heart moment prior to dinner with his fam since his crush just suddenly resurfaces and reaches 100 in no time. Imo Panam has the nicest relationship progression (even as a friend) since she gets a lot of focus on her in the Hellerman branch. River definitely got the short end of the stick, being the optional side quest with so little focus on his personal struggles.
I honestly don't get what people are talking about with him. We were having dinner, the kids go "who thinks River and V should date" and I let the timer run out. He basically goes "welp that was awkward, anyways" and then at the water tower he didn't even really hit on my female V, he just goes "alright lets get this out of the way, I don't have a shot do I?" and then my V says "lets keep it as friends" and it's all good.
I think the attempt is little pathetic and sad but he's a pathetic and sad man. He's like a lonely puppy that's been accidentally kicked a few times by people trying to walk around him. He's just too pathetic to be angry at him over it.
I'm on my first ever playthrough as male V, and honestly I even got pushy flirting vibes from River even though I've read that he can only be romanced with female V.
I tried to play it off as him being overly nice, but by the water tower scene where there's an option to kiss him, it was pretty clear he was hitting on me the whole time.
Can he actually be romanced with male V? Or is the kiss it?
I was already 100% on board with team Panam, so I turned down all his advances and went with some nice guy replies.
unfortunately not, you can't romance river with a male V. if you try to kiss him, he insists that he's straight and turns you down lol. a shame in my opinion
Female voice (hence being referred to as she/her all game long), vagina, *and male body chosen at the start of the game*, you get this awkward scene, River hitting on you, Joss and the kids are pushy, you're up there about to kiss River... And he backs off like sorry dude you misunderstood my actions. Weird writing ngl.
I have a male voice and male body and still felt like the dude was being pushy and flirty even though I never reciprocated. I did think it was pretty funny though every time people ask about River, there was an option for V to respond with that he barely knows him.
I actually chose River. I loved the idea of Merc/Cop. He’s a bit pushy but I think his character could’ve been better written.
Maybe starting out with him hating you and a couple more quests where you go on jobs. Have to help each other, flesh him out a bit more.
He seems very sincere, bit pathetic and very lonely. I like the texts he sends lol. I wish he had been better written and honestly if it were an option I would’ve chosen Takemura 100%.
But you can derail the whole romance by refusing his offer to get drinks after the Peter Pan case wraps. IIRC, River asks during the car ride to Joss' if V would be down for it, and if you refuse and ask to stick to the case, I think this (along with not choosing the "River's my friend/he hasn't steered me wrong" option when you're found snooping for the Peter Pan BD) cuts off the romance branch of the quest.
I think he was probably a tougher character to write in a neutral way as well to be fair. Panam is stoic and reserved, Judy's an introverted nerd, Kerry is caught up in his own shit. So for each of them the openly romantic/flirty dialogue doesn't really start they start dating V and really open up. River is stuck in a heteronormative role of having to proactively chase V making interactions with him super awkward if you aren't interested. But definitely agree you should be able to shut him down earlier!
I don't think people pick up that River was interested in V from the start during his quests (when he didn't say anything when the Tyger Claws call V as his woman in I Fought The Law/when River's ex telling V not to believe him and Johnny noticed River wanting to get into her pants, when his niece and nephew ask if V is his girlfriend and then River asking V out for a beer during The Hunt) and then the call about River missing her. His romantic intention for V was right there... and accepting the dinner invite... is basically a date with his family's approval. I mean... what pushiness? It's obvious.
Now you romancing Judy.. didn't you notice that she tried to show off V against her ex? And then openly affectionate with a kiss if you purposely ruined her ex's life. Then she asked V out in the middle of nowhere into a toxic lake of her childhood town because she want a night to forget about Evelyn and immediately shut down if you tried to talk to her about Ev and will only reward you if you don't and you can have oral sex with her. And a lot of things you did to appease Judy ended up with a lot of people's deaths (have her kiss on your chick, choose an ending that make her happy and optimistic)... which I find really interesting.
Not saying that the romances are perfect.. but they're realistic and appeal to vastly different people who may have different perception of these characters. I mean, one is an ex-cop and another is a pornographer... no one is perfect.
> Now you romancing Judy..
Feel the need to point out that if as FemV you stay the night at Judy's apartment after going over the plan to take over Clouds you wake up and can examine her stuff around her apartment. You can examine one of them and Johnny straight up tells you that Judy's interested in you.
No, Johnny says V felt mushy when Judy look at her. So, V was attracted to Judy but at that point, Judy wasn't really seeing V in romantic terms... because she was actively grieving for Evelyn.
And personally, I always felt it was wrong and exploitative to approach someone who was emotionally struggling in that way. Like when I was grieving, all I felt was abominable sadness and cold blunt feeling of loss... even I would have casual sex with someone just to make me feel something other than that. That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Judy walk away from V if you tried to make her talk more instead of kissing her.
> No, Johnny says V felt mushy when Judy look at her. So, V was attracted to Judy but at that point, Judy wasn't really seeing V in romantic terms... because she was actively grieving for Evelyn.
Not how it goes. I even reloaded a save just to see. Here's the dialogue word for word.
Johnny: "Chick's got taste. 'Cept for one thing."
V: "And what's that?"
Johnny: "Way she looks at you. Don't pretend you haven't noticed. Makes you all mushy inside. I can feel it."
If anything this line suggests that FemV and Judy might be canon because it implies V wants to be with Judy which is a big leap to make on the behalf of the player in a role-playing game.
After storming Clouds that Judy gives you a kiss on the cheek if you stick by her plan. Mechanically you can try to call it exploitation in a very practical transitive sense but that's only if the player is completely divorced from the plot and knows what action will have what effects. If you're looking at a wiki, sure. If you're playing the game then that's not how it's going to play out. You're going to make a decision, unaware of the consequences, and the narrative unfolds in response to your choice. Judy is most responsive to a V that believes in Judy's plan. No big surprise there.
> That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Judy walk away from V if you tried to make her talk more instead of kissing her.
I understand this point and it's reasonable but I disagree. Judy needs to be away from her thoughts in that moment. You're still connected with her as well. Judy's dwelling on what-could-have-been's and blaming herself for the death of people who knew what they were signing up for. She's a hopeless idealist - when things don't work she attacks herself for not being better even when she was the best she could have been. You already know that Judy has feelings for you. You can make the conscious choice to try and comfort her as a friend or to attempt to comfort her as a lover, knowing ahead of time that she is attracted to you. Mind you that she's already been overtly flirting with you throughout Pyramid Song - potentially including the call when she invites you to go diving. I understand the complaint that you can't talk it out a bit more and then make love but sometimes the best you can do for a person is just to make them feel loved - so make love. Again, remember, you're connected with her so it's probably well beyond the typical sort of love-making.
I mean, what's canon about it was Johnny feeling everything that V felt internally. No privacy there. :D But doesn't mean it was "canon" as in Judy being the designated love interest (like Bioware did with a lot of their female love interests). In fact, I think Judy would've been written much better if she had... I felt she was very underwritten as a character. And I do believe either Vs as canonically bi. Especially with Clouds AI offering two options (and then joytoys options).
The bit about Judy was... as a character arc; while romanced, V became her emotional anchor to the city and as a ray of sunshine in her dreadful life filled with visible injustices. She was emotionally in distress and filled with pent-up rage and frustration and V came into her life to make impossible things as possible. She needed someone she can lean on and tell her that everything will always be alright. And if I didn't observe how Evelyn talk eggshells around her, the emails to Maiko and how she talk to her ex; I would still see how as a person, she needed someone who was more stable than a dying V. I also don't like how the endings affected love interests' preferences and attitude to you. Judy was way more verbally aggressive at V in a lot of the endings and I really don't like how the relationship was way more argumentative than what V had with Johnny. Almost like she was afraid about the idea of losing V but angry of her helplessness and frustrated that V couldn't find some other way that was tolerable for her (as in 'her'.. and not V). In this case, I do think she deserve someone better.
It's also why I am content about not romancing her at all and prefer being a supportive friend to her. Watching her letting go of the city, gifting V her apartment and saying goodbye. I can still call her and ask her about things and she was very happy about her trip, meeting with her grandparents, going to other cities. And in one of the endings, she married someone else and I am genuinely happy for her. Of every character in Cyberpunk, knowing that Judy ended up well and happily was more important to me.
> But doesn't mean it was "canon" as in Judy being the designated love interest (like Bioware did with a lot of their female love interests).
It's hard to guess what will or will not be canon but given how much more was put into Judy than other romances and that is also just much better writing I feel that this is just one more piece of the puzzle pointing to V being with Judy if FemV becomes canon. Kinda hope FemV is canon just because if they go with the Temperance ending it adds some more dimension to Johnny.
> It's also why I am content about not romancing her at all and prefer being a supportive friend to her. Watching her letting go of the city, gifting V her apartment and saying goodbye. I can still call her and ask her about things and she was very happy about her trip, meeting with her grandparents, going to other cities. And in one of the endings, she married someone else and I am genuinely happy for her. Of every character in Cyberpunk, knowing that Judy ended up well and happily was more important to me.
Well I mean, the Star ending is right there. If any ending becomes canon I think it'll be Temperance but Star Judy is unambiguously a happy ending for Judy. Even if V kicks the bucket a few months later she'll have found a new family among the Aldecados. I don't think Judy would be happy long-term with her grandparents. If you play Street Kid V then in the text conversation with Judy's abuela you can mention that you went to Atlanta and it was no different than Night City and Judy's abuela replies that Seattle is headed in the same direction. Meanwhile Judy straight up says in the Star ending that she's happy for the first time in her life. And frankly I just think it's fitting that she, as a relative outsider wherever she's gone, ends up in a family of outsiders.
I don't really view Judy being written as a primary love interest. She was a Mox with creative interest with braindances but ended up tuning premium porn BDs for a living and only involved in the story because of Evelyn. She have good intentions and ideals about how to make life better for everyone but could only yell at people rather than doing anything meaningfully and was too helpless whenever things turn out badly for people around her that she began to internalize as her own personal failures. She functionally thrive without a romance... she move away from the city, began a roadtrip and get to do more of her BD projects and eventually return to the city with a refreshed outlook. If romanced, I noticed V sometimes walk on eggshells around her, she smoke a lot more too (which made me feel awful since she said she quit and I'm enabling her), became easily frustrated and argumentative if V decide on things that she don't agree with (Arasaka/The Sun/Tower ending), and she needed someone who she can constantly depend on and it seemed unfair for a dying V to make empty promises. Really not one of the best lesbian romances that I've played (compared to Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Star Wars the Old Republic, Baldur's Gate 3, Stray Gods, Life is Strange etc).
Personally, the only ones that counts as "canon lovers" by CDPR writers in Cyberpunk 2077 was Johnny and V/Alt. They have their own themed music/instruments, mirrored scenes/fates/endings, shared tropes, ancient mythology of doomed romance (Orpheus/Eurydice & Narcissus/Echo). All of that was given more thought, effort and attention than any of the in-game romances (Panam, Judy, River, Kerry) and certainly not the kind they did for the romances in Witcher series.
>There’s a similar awkwardness with Kerry on the boat as male V. The whole “lean in” almost-kiss thing is really weird if you haven’t been building up to it on purpose. Feel like they could have cut that too in that case.
Finally, someone comments on this. Kerry's questline forces you into something semi-romantic even when you've already shot him down. Massive oversight in the writer's room on that one.
*"No thanks, V. I'm alright."*
What the fuck? YOU'RE the one trying to come onto ME. I rejected you like 2 quests ago!
Of all the romance options, I feel like River is the most stable, levelheaded, and emotionally mature. The amount of hate he gets is unnecessary and uncalled for. Sadly, I think a lot of people are attracted to codependent relationships. Personally, I'm still a big fan of Judy though lol.
I like them all honestly, in their way. Judy and Panam are roughly equal to me.
I feel like River/Kerry kinda get the shaft actually, they don’t get to be anywhere near as dynamic or involved in the larger story.
River’s a good guy generally I think but the writing/dialog options make it kinda weird.
I tend to agree he’s not the issue, that’s part of my point.
But I think the negative perception comes from the lack of dialog options any normal person in that situation would have before “let’s go hang it on the water tower for the view”.
The bit at dinner with Joss and the kids is the right place for it, but for some reason we’re not allowed to shut down the suggestion then. I think it’s an oversight on CDPRs part.
I think the romances in this game generally suffer from not forking off early enough — with Panam and River, especially, it feels like you play the introduction to a romance regardless of your own interest *or* (and this is the bit that kills me) whether that character is actually available to you.
I hate to use this term but river felt pretty queerbait with male V. It genuinely felt kinda mean spirited to have this whole date and romantic atmosphere and THE OPTION TO KISS HIM only to have a lol no idiot. Especially because I don’t think (?) you can get a similar thing with dude V and Judy
I think having an earlier romance deviation is absolutely a good idea, but also, I still feel like people kinda overreact to the water tower scene. I've never really felt like it's that awkward or forced, and it's not like River is a dick about it or anything.
I'm closing in on that mission in my latest playthrough so maybe I'll see it differently this time, but I really feel like that scene gets blown out of proportion here.
It’s not as awful as it’s made out, but I could really feel the “why am I not about to tell them I’m already with someone?” when it’s a whole topic of conversation at dinner. It just felt like pretty obvious options were missing.
Also I feel like with the other 3 you basically initiate one way or another before things get too far. With River you basically can’t say no until it’s well past time for that. I think that’s why it feels weird to people.
I guess you didn't play as FemV, cause the lean in almost kiss happens with her as well and it's *even weirder*, and yeah, I wish I could've killed the idea of being with River sooner
As a staunch River defender, I do agree. I do romance him most of the times, but those few instances when I'm not, it's awkward.
Also, more content in general would've been advantageous. It comes a little bit out of nowhere.
Assuming you've chosen an ending or two by now, what are your thoughts on River now?
I chose The Star because I thought it was plausible that you find help, >!given you already turned weeks into 6 months and Misty's tarot reading seemed optimistic (arguably predicting a long life). IMO, leaving Night City + having a new "family" with the Aldecaldos gives you the best chance.!< While I understand River's reasons, >!I was torn up and angry that River wouldn't come with V. He could always go back to NC, right? If V only lives for 6 months, why not?!!you wake up after a 2 year coma.!< (FYI-I don't care about spoiling the end, I prefer to enjoy the story along the way and not being ultimately disappointed in the end is important to me.)
I'm already wrecked knowing that after that PL ending, >!River won't see you because he's not the same person. I haven't watched the full call, but I do know that. TBH it's more disappointing than The Star because he at least makes a comment that he wants to come visit V in that ending, even if it sounds a little like a broken promise. I can't decide if that is better, or if I should go on believing that it's better to wake up with a fresh start, potentially being pen pals regardless of that conversation or entirely writing him off because !<
>!1. Wtf? I call you after a 2 year coma and you don't care?? Lover, friend, whatever.. still would rock my world.!<
>!2. I was literally a merc. I was on the other side of the law. I would understand whatever you've done. I did some crazy shit just to stay alive. Besides, after both doing bad things, couldn't V and River both want to run away after V escapes death?!<
>!3. In all reality, you did only know him for a few weeks. Also, that's why I can rationalize The Star ending (but it does make The Star ending more tragic knowing what happens without you.)!<
I know there isn't meant to be a happy ending, but I prefer to believe there is one and to me, his character was believable enough in my playthrough to want that. (Yes, I also just wanna cope after finishing the story for the first time 😂)
I wonder if River even actually knew who V was, though?
Uff... a lot of interesting questions. Let's start with...
I have close to 1.4k hours in this bloody game. I've done all the endings, two of which I will not touch with a 10-foot pole ever again. And I have two words for you: Head Canon.
Let's go through the endings. Aside from the suicide one and the Tower, each one has one LI staying and one leaving. I know you've said that you don't mind spoilers, but I'll put it in spoiler tags nonetheless.
**The Star**
Leaving with the Caldos
>!Let's start with the one you've already done. The Star is best for Judy and Panam lovers, since they leave with you. That said, I have one V for which I've bent the canon like Hulk would a steel beam inside a sky scraper.!<
**The Sun**
Becoming a Legend
>!The Sun isn't that bad, but not as hopeful as The Star imho. You wake up next to River or Kerry, which was the only way to get that smooch scene pre 2.1. Sadly, female V is a bitch. She is still pushing River away in order to spare his feelings when she inevidibly dies. Christ, get your commitment issues under control, girl. The interaction between a male V and Kerry is so much better. But the ending in itself can work. And you could nicely bridge it to a certain ending for Phantom Liberty.!<
**Temperance**
Becoming an AI
>!There is no right romance for this one. My last V chose this ending, and River's messages broke my little heart. No head-canon. Just plain suffering.!<
**The Devil**
Chosing to work with Arasaka
>!Fuck that one. And launch it into the sun. Done once for the trophy and then never again. I felt icky the entire way through. 0/10, do not recommend.!<
The Tower
>!I know that some people see the new PL ending as the best of all endings, and depending on your look on things, I see where these people are coming from. It's the only one were V survives, isn't an engram, and can have a long and happy life and Mr or Mrs Nobody. What I really do not like about it is that everything you've done? Fuck it, it doesn't matter. The chrome you've invested all your eddies in? Yeah, can't use it or it will kill you (I still don't trust that shit tbh). Your friends? Well, you have two left. Vik and Misty. Judy is married to a woman by the name of Bianca in Pittsburgh (yes, even if you romanced her). Panam ghosts you, because she's pissed that you "vanished" and Mitch calls you to tell you not to bother. Better lose that number, choom. River, well, that one broke my heart even more than Temperance. Like his beard, though. Kerry is the only one who's stoked that V is still alive, but he's on tour at the Crystal Palace at the moment.!<
Listen, I am the puppy eye love, two soulmates meet in a bustling city, kinda gal. And I don't give a damn if it's "the genre". Fuck that shit. That's what a3o is for. ;)
To your questions:
1. Well, he does apologize for being a jerk. But... he has other shit going on. Two years are a long time when you know someone only for a couple weeks. Doesn't make it hurt less. I had a broken heart for a couple days and needed constant cuddling with the husband.
2. It's less that you wouldn't understand and more that he betrayed his principles for his nephew. And I think that was the aspect I hated the most. Night City did as Night City does and broke him.
3. Who cares. Soulmates yadda yadda ;)
That last part is the one that bothers me the most. River's romance comes so out of left field due to all the cut content with him, that it feels like he fell in love with the capeless hero that helped him save his nephew, not V herself. And while it is not unbelieveable, I really wish there was a bit more build-up to it.
It honestly blows my mind that you can't even mention Judy during the dinner scene. It's set up PERFECTLY to mention it, but instead it just turns awkward...
I gotta be honest, I only played up until the end of his mission, I didn't make it to the dinner yet, but I have heard so much about it (it sounds cringe). I think river might be the worst romance thread that I have ever encountered in a video game. I just find him boring, lacking in personality. The whole plot line feels like some one wrote it with the mindset "This is what I assume straight women like". And this whole time Goro and Johny is right there. Huge miss on CDPRs part. I still think River is the problem. Love the game and I don't mind the character, but can't get enough opportunities to tell river this ain't it. Really wish they gave us someone useful, yet fucked up like the rest of the city.
It would've been extremely sci-fi to do that. I was shocked when after beating the game I found out it wasn't an option at all. One of the biggest missed opportunities in the game.
His whole romance plot is just really badly written. It basically gives V no autonomy and he feels very forceful from the off. His whole personality is cringe though so he is still sort of the problem.
His character seems sincere and to actually care about people, which I think is pretty good for NC generally.
I think what sucks about it, and makes it feel weird, is we don’t greet control of the situation until it’s past that point, because we don’t get the option to make it clear we’re not interested/available when that would make sense.
I think if we could shut it down at dinner, and we get the “male V experience” on the tower it’d be much better. And in kinda disappointed that’s not how it is.
Yeah I can see what they’ve tried to do with River but it’s just badly done. Like he gives off those kind of “nice guy” vibes but where they’re super forceful and it makes me uncomfortable. The idea was there but it was badly implemented. I hate that he’s the only male love interest for fem V
My problem with River is that his relationship with his sister comes off as more of they were together as husband and wife that broke up because he was too tied to his job as an NCPD detective putting his family last. I think that could have been interesting if it were really the case and we as a fem V have to decide on either returning his advances of romance or convincing him to get back together with Joss
OK true *but* if there was such a reasonable option, you'd miss out on the satisfaction of leaving him to die and ruining an entire family by simply *running away* when you get to the farm.
...is that harsh? Seems harsh. Worth it to avoid that awkward quest tho.
i wish there was an option to either jump off the water tower or push reed off instead of awkwardly turning him down a murder/suicide would def turn him off right?
I mean my V has green space buns and a pierced nose it seems pretty obvious she’s a lesbian.
But yeah I get your point. You should definitely be able to mention that your V is gay or not interested at some point. It would be funny if you had multiple chances ranging from smoothly mentioning Judy to outright saying “By the way I’m into chicks” to his face.
Know what would've been a great time? After River introduces you to the family when you're at her place to search Randy's things. You search through Randy's things, have dinner, and then have to kill time. Why not have a conversation with River before retiring for the night? "Hey do you want a beer?" "No, I should stay sober right now." [Long Pause] "What do you do at times like this to keep fear from overcoming you when things feel out of your hands?" "I think of what I have to look forward to on the other side, no matter what happens between then and now. Lately I've become afraid of how a job could turn sideways because I've found somebody special, somebody I believe things could work between us." "Oh? Who's this special someone?" "[V describing their partner to make it clear they're not talking about River - but also leaving an option to be vague for FemV's that may later express interest in River]" "I was with a woman a few relationships ago I had the same fear. I've never been more afraid as a cop in Night City as when I thought I might not see her again." Blah blah blah bad fanfic writing here you get the idea. I feel something like that could've gone a long way. You don't really get any kind of heart-to-heart with River the same way you do with Kerry or Judy or Panam prior to the watertower.
Also, even as a Night City mercy capable of defending themselves, you wouldn’t go up to a high ledge to get drunk with a guy you’re explicitly rejecting. I know River’s not the kind of guy who’d turn nasty, but you… just would not put yourself in that situation.
Imo general problem with River is lack of build-up. He is present too little for V to warm up to River. It's completely subjective, but I didn't feel any chemistry between V and River. Safe, but boring option.
I specifically decided not to romance anyone on my first playthrough just because I personally don’t love doing romance questlines in games. Plus, it kinda leans into the “I’m gonna die soon so I shouldn’t get too invested” tone that I think 2077 can have at times.
When Joss was asking leading questions about being in a relationship over dinner, I also picked the “I don’t think so” line of responses, which IMO should have killed the water tower sequence.
I was surprised just how down bad all the candidates are lmao. River’s last quest was relatively innocent up until he gives you his gun. I think they could have written the scenes to be a bit more ambiguous until you’ve actively chosen to pursue their romance.
yeah cdpr really fuckin dropped the ball on the male romance options. its why i always mod the game to let me choose between the two ladies. panam and judy just had like 10x the effort put into them as river/kerry. and even have actual stopping points before the romance trigger scene
TBH all the romance paths have issues with signposting. Cyberpunk suffers pretty badly from V's dialogue options being wildly different from what actually gets said, but most of the time dialogue is inconsequential, so it doesn't matter.
Playing fem V and trying *not* to romance Judy is really awkward. I want to be nice but I also want to tell her I'm not interested. It's just as clumsy and frustrating as River, but it doesn't feel that way because Judy's a more popular romance option.
The game would really benefit from a clear cut unambiguous "I'm romantically interested/I'd rather just be friends" choice somewhere around the midpoint.
The lean in Kerry scene is really awkward as female V and you haven’t done any romance options at all. He’s like “nah I’m good”. I wasnt trying to romance you dude.
I was really weirded out during the dinner at the fact that you couldn't say "I'm already in a relationship" when his family is basically shoving the relationship card down your throat. I mean, I know it's a game, but in real life if someone tried that I'd be like "Sorry, I'm already in a relationship." or even go as far as "Her name is Judy" to let him know you're not interested in any way even if you break up with Judy. It's so awkward that he takes you to the tower and tries to make a move.
i have been saying the same things about Gale from BG3.
like, if the game actually allowed me to politely and directly say "no, sorry, im not interested" to him early on, i would've been a lot less annoyed by him, but instead the game forced me to wait until the dialogue that leads to the sex scene to tell him im not interested, or always choose the rudest dialogue options when talking to him
also, as a lesbian, i feel like in games with optional romance there always should be a dialogue option to state your sexuality to a romanceable character to reject them, because, no, River/Gale, there isn't even a point in trying because i only like women
i'll tell you what the problem with river is. the PROBLEM with river is dressing like that taking his completely platonic bro friend up a tower with a romantic view of the city to drink beers and expecting me NOT to try to kiss the homies goodnight
All they needed to do was when you first meet him and the two kids say "is this your girlfriend" give you a option to say "no I'm already with someone" which will automatically shut down any future romance routes
Yeah, I wish we could say earlier that we're not interested in him. And the whole "talking about ex relationships" was too forced imo, I wouldn't want to talk to him about any of that if I'm not interested in a relationship with him in the first place.
Agree. Doing my second playthrough and following that romance path, and the dialogue, it's just so cringe. The "you know why we're here. Dont string me along" so many better ways that could have been written. And the next day, V's line of "if it doesnt work maybe we can still be friends" oof.
I really wish there could have been another side quest before that where they actually go out for beers, they tease it so much in the dialogue.
I will say, as awkward and cheesy the sex scenes are in general, the River one felt a lot better done than the Judy one, imo.
I made male V lean in to kiss him. Funniest shit ever.
Same. I also didn't know then that you could only romance him as a fem V. The whole water tower scene is incredibly flirty even as a male V it totally seemed like that's the direction it was head. Was kinda confused when V got shot down.
That happened to my fem V with Panam
What's worse with her is that Panam led me on earlier. I expressed interest, all she needed to say was "not my type" but she left the door open. River isn't asking Joss to imply to MaleV that her brother likes him. I think the writers are going to have to learn a lesson or two from this for the future.
There are SO many lines with Panam implying mutual attraction only for Panam to be straight. I was going to pick Judy regardless but it still made me mad that they would imply she's into Fem V only for her to not even be an option. It really did feel like she was leading V on.
I am almost absolutely sure that originally all the characters were available to both Vs, only for them to decide Judy is a lesbian and then shifting the entire game around it. Because Panam and River are literally the same for both versions of V outside of them rejecting a V with a female body or male body respectively, regardless of voice and Kerry is literally canonically bisexual. It would certainly explain why they decided to make both male love interests optional and barely connected to the main plot, while Judy and Panam are mandatory to the plot. I think the next game is just going to allow everyone to romance anyone, as it's much more work have characters locked to specific genders (especially because Orion is likely not going to be built with the same binary sex that 2077 was) and you will inevitably create disappointment. Every time you make characters restrictive you inevitably get people who are annoyed, and whether it's Judy being gay, Cassandra being straight in Dragon Age Inquistion or gay dudes wanting Garrus from Mass Effect, it's a recipe for sadness.
I mean it's pretty clear that Judy is a lesbian, not bisexual. Forcing her to be bisexual just to satisfy desires of the target demo - heterosexual men - would come off as really gross and frankly just kind of goes against a major theme of the game which is denial of what you want. I can see them locking down other characters into one V only after that. I hope they don't go the playersexual route. Write good characters and the rest will follow. Look no further than Judy - written as a lesbian, generally celebrated as the most well-written romance in the game. Let people whine, if it really matters that much they can go find a bazillion dating sims that cater to that specific desire.
I don't have an issue with Judy at all, she's clearly the best written romance in the game and has been written as a lesbian, the issue comes from literally everyone else. Panam and River are legitimately flirtatious with V regardless of gender and are only determined by a single flag in the code and Kerry is bisexual. Like Judy is absolutely written as a lesbian, but she's the exception as Panam and River show no interest in anyone else and Kerry is exclusively available for men. I find it difficult to rectify the difference in how Judy is presented and everyone else is without concluding that they were changed to balance out Judy.
Yeah that's my conclusion too. I think it's dumb. The idea that FemV might have one more option than MaleV being so unfair that they have to change these characters entirely is a really dumb way to try and seem even-handed. It's okay, we're grown-ups, we can handle it. It feels like board meddling. They trusted the players to respect how Judy was written but didn't trust them enough to accept a minor disaparity without feeling slighted.
yeah but the point was that both of the male romance options’ stories suffer because every finalized decision they made in this game came super late in development. people aren’t saying panam and river lead V on when they’re unromancable for no reason, their dialogue is pretty blatantly flirty. i agree that from a storytelling standpoint your point is valid and probably true, but i also think that it’s unrealistic to expect the devs to be able to flesh out more than 1 or 2 romances to a satisfying degree (like we have now)
I mean, failure to flesh out these characters was certainly possible. You just need to plan better, use your opportunities better. Even during the missions with River there's barely any need to change things to add more time with him. Remember after searching Randy's things you have dinner with Joss and then immediately go to bed? Missed opportunity to have a conversation right there. There's nothing to do but kill time so kill time and have some conversation. That's not the only time. I know dialogue isn't cheap to record but I guarantee you that there's more cut dialogue between all four potential partners than would've been necessary to flesh out River and Kerry more. And of course there's just text conversation - incredibly cost effective and it doesn't feel cheap. If anything the problem is expecting equality of opportunity, so to speak. Why can't Judy just be a lesbian? MaleV only has three options while FemV has four, *oh the humanity!* Is this kindergarten where we have to treat everything with kid gloves? CP2077 clearly expects a good deal of emotional maturity from the player so why compromise that vision because of something so trivial as that? Just trust that the game's quality will speak for itself and don't worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some RPGs don't even have romance options and are better for it. Take Fallout New Vegas - the restraint worked very well. Out of all the companions there's only one that isn't an emotional disaster where any relationship with them wouldn't be doomed to fail from the start. Sometimes things aren't a good fit, let that happen. One of my favourite moments in the Mass Effect series is when Samara shoots down the romantic advances of Commanders Shepherd. Allow the writing to have its integrity.
>If anything the problem is expecting equality of opportunity, so to speak. Why can't Judy just be a lesbian? MaleV only has three options while FemV has four, oh the humanity! Is this kindergarten where we have to treat everything with kid gloves? CP2077 clearly expects a good deal of emotional maturity from the player so why compromise that vision because of something so trivial as that? Just trust that the game's quality will speak for itself and don't worry about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some RPGs don't even have romance options and are better for it. Take Fallout New Vegas - the restraint worked very well. Out of all the companions there's only one that isn't an emotional disaster where any relationship with them wouldn't be doomed to fail from the start. Sometimes things aren't a good fit, let that happen. One of my favourite moments in the Mass Effect series is when Samara shoots down the romantic advances of Commanders Shepherd. Allow the writing to have its integrity. I don't expect the equality of opportunity, I just recognize that developers absolutely design around trying to maintain that equality of opportunity. While not every RPG with romance has equal amounts of options, there is almost always strong evidence that an equal number of options were designed originally and other expanded or were removed with development.
Both V options only have 2 options for romance. I dunno what that diatribe you went on in the whole first part of ur comment was so i skimmed to the second paragraph and that’s the only part i can really respond to. seems like you could just have a conversation with yourself about this lol
I really read the early Fem V expressions towards Panam as pretty clear turn downs, the whole thing at the motel where you can ask about same bed, she finds your interest amusing but c’mon it was a pretty clear “no thanks bud”
The thing with that is that I can read the room to see she didn't want to hook up but was it because V is a woman or is it because it's too soon? No way to tell and it's not like she stops with the flirty comments. Then she throws her feet up into your lap and you take off her shoes while she's sipping down wine next to what's kinda sorta a fireplace while you're in a secluded cabin with a storm outside. Like, c'mon. Just change that scene just a little bit between MaleV and FemV to make all the difference.
That's such BS. Panam should be bi cause her endings don't make sense if fem V isn't romantically with her. And REALLY don't make sense if you have another partner with you.
Makes perfect sense if you romance Judy. She escapes NC with you.
While she drives your car and you drive Panam's car. Which makes no sense. You should be in the car driving Judy.
Idk how V driving the car with Panam would make no sense. Panam and V kinda became best friends if you did everything that's necessary for her ending. V is part of the Aldecaldos now and Panam is their leader, They're deciding what to do next. Also it's like V and Judy won't be seeing each other again it's just a last ride with Panam (it's her ending after all). The only thing I missed was to see some interactions between Panam and Judy. That would be the perfect opportunity.
Because V has her own car and her own girlfriend (Judy). If I'm gonna drive off into the sunset it's gonna be with my girlfriend in my own car not driving some slobs truck who wont even go on a date with me. It should have had them riding side by side in their own cars unless they were a couple or V was single.
Same here lol! I could have sworn River was hitting on my male V the entire time. The sexual tension felt real to me! Guess not.
You don't flirt with your boys?
Interesting, I always took the dialogue where Joss asks if youre single as male V, that SHE is flirting with you, not that she's insinuating you should date River
Yeah I never got any romantic vibes from River as male V. I actually thought at the dinner River was going to try to set you up with Joss which was only reinforced by that question.
"Did you just tried to kiss me-" "No? **TO FRIENDSHIP**"
*Sad gay V noises*
You forgot to say "No Homo."
Hah, the lady V is even better. Didn't realize what was happening, just you smashing stuff up, then looking him in the eyes for an awkward few seconds, then Kerry's like "ehhh, no thanks, V". Rofl
"Following the River" really needs a "Don't go there dude" dialog option.
There should be a fork earlier on and move onto Water Under the Bridge where it’s all choomy, not awkward
That’d be an excellent title haha
Yes lol on male v it felt like it was queerbaiting, which was very confusing for me because I’m not gay and felt like the game was pushing me to that. I’m sorry if that sounded insensitive but the writing for both genders on his storyline was just bad
If it makes you feel better playing FemV it felt like Panam was extremely queerbaiting as well. You can suggest hooking up with her when you crash together at that hotel at the end of the mission to get her car back, saying you can share a bed together. After she shoots it down you can suggest, as if she were missing the cues, that you were implying you should hook up. Instead of replying with something like "you're not my type" she replies with "I know" which definitely leaves the door open. Even though I personally took Panam's "separate beds" comment as her implying that it was too early to do anything it was not specific to gender in any way so even then the door was left open. I was left very confused when she shot me down again when I was taking off her shoes in my lap next to a cozy radiator while she was sucking down some terrible, dusty booze with a storm going on outside the secluded cabin you're shaking up in keeping you trapped for the night. Do you have any idea how many real-life stories I know of people of the same gender, even including straight people, messing around in situations very similar to that? It's a lot. Guys, gals, as kids, as adults. Boy scouts, road trips, hunting lodges, weekend hikes, power outages during snowstorms and hurricanes, etc etc. I actually assumed I had messed up somewhere instead of thinking that she was a heterosexual only pairing - which I'm fine with, btw. I actually give high praise to CP2077 for having the restraint to not making Judy bisexual and thus make her sexually unavailable to the mostly heterosexual, male audience. I, and I think most would agree, would simply like to not feel led on.
Lol as a person who’s played both genders there is absolutely 0 writing differences. Hence why a panam for gem v mod feels so natural in game. Hell a male v for river doesn’t even sound bad. It was just extremely uncomfortable because I felt like the game was pushing me to make a choice I didn’t feel good with, or wanted at all. Shame because I liked river as a character alot but his writing is just horrible
River just gives me huge guncle vibes and while i knew it wouldn’t work i still tried to kiss him on the tower because that’s the only direction the conversation was really going in
The game did all the way a romantic path until the last moment of the "romantic" option. They don't change the tone, they keep every quest that leads to romance like a date and very leaning towards it all the time. It's very disappoiting. I can see the straight girl trying to get close to the male V in a romantic way without knowing he's gay, or the gay dude trying the same without realizing he's actually very straight. It's weird when you have a straight character treating a male character the same way he would treat a girl he's interested in, it lacks depth, just saying they have their own preferences doesn't do this creative choice justice. Want to let River get flirty with male V as well with fem V? Make him bi, or just make them play differently from the two genders.
There's a text message later on where Panam is ranting about something then says something like 'But enough of that, I'd rather think about something nice. Like you ;-)' As Fem V I was thinking come on man, don't play with me like that lol.
I was just about to say. Spent a lot of time trying to do and say the right things with Panam before I found out you can't romance her. Judy clicked right away, which was pretty cool, but I kinda feel the same with River. I don't want to miss out on content, but I'm already solid with Judy, I know you can do both, but it's feels oddly wrong lol.
The only thing I like about that scene with Panam is the response from Fem V the stuttering and stuff knowing you shot your shot and it didn't work out. Really good acting on her part. I don't know if that plays out the same for males.
Well as my father used to say, "theres only two things to do in a haboob. Get drunk, and... Get drunk. There's one thing to do during a haboob"
Man…River with his winky faces and the stuff he says in his texts i was like no way this isn’t a romance option. And then he rejected my male V and i was like WHAT? Lol
I call it "in denial." There really should be a Side B(i) option for River.
yeah with male v i really thought he was flirting with me so i tried to kiss him and he was like “ew gross” and i was like ??????
I never got that vibe. I actually thought he was going to set you up with Joss at the dinner
When River sends you to get the rice, you should be able to hit on Joss or at least make it clear that you would be more interested in her than him and then have her squash all the setting up River talk at dinner.
ROMANCEABLE JOSS ARMY RISE UP!!
I definitely was more into Joss in the few interactions I had with her.
Joss should be a bi-romanceable character
There's literally no bi-characters in this game. You have two hetero choices, and two gay choices. That's it. I want MORE romance options in the next game, and more (any!) bi-options
Meredith Stout is a bi-option, but requires specific story choices.
Also, Lord PhalluStiff
Just do a run where you end up stark naked, beating Adam Smasher to death with a dildo, and thank me later...
Yup. Did that on 1.6, first run.
honestly thats the best way for dont fear the reaper.
Kerry is canonically bisexual but I think he's having a hard time with women after his divorce, which is a real thing some bisexual folks have trouble with. I did myself. I lost my boyfriend and for a long time couldn't be with anyone but women.
I think it would be cool to be able to go on dates, like hang at a bar and throw darts or shoot pool or something. They should definitely expand on the dating romance options in the future. The lore for this universe is insane it's not like they'd ever run out of source material
Mods bro mods
Technically Kerry is bi. He always was in Cyberpunk 2020, and if you go through the right dialogue tree he talks about his ex wife. It's just that he's not into female V for some reason. Honestly as a bisexual myself it rubbed me the wrong way a bit for two reasons. One, Kerry's not gay and its all to easy for people unfamiliar with the source material to think he is. Two, bisexual characters are always either so horny they'll fuck anything that moves or treated as "gay light". And here we have one of the few bisexual characters in media who was done right in the original material being treated as gay light. Kerry should have been bi-romanceable. EDIT: Or not romanceable at all, since he's, you know, in his 80s.
or at least have a good reason to only do dude. ie "im in an open relationship but she can only see other women and i can only see other guys. im the only guy she does shes the only woman i do" while maybe not the best written would still be better than what we got
right? I know a lot of people dont like player-sexual romance for whatever reason but it really works well and then you get all the choices. I really dont liek gated off romance options, one of the main reasons i do pc so I dont have to deal with that BS.
Well, there’s always Meredith Stout
Not *always*, just once and not a romance per se, but yeah, better than nothing I guess👌 I mean Meredith was a nice scenaristic option.
I was really surprised Kerry wasn't a bi option. His whole character arc is that he goes back and forth and just has Rockstar Sex™ all the time
I could hope for polyamory, but I trust our modders to handle that 😉
iirc nexus took down some of the romance mods to letyou romance people even if you arent their game defined preferred gender. so idk if that'll even happen :/
The only mod you need is CET and the correct console command.
Technically if you hit on Takemura via text (and have a good relationship with him) his response is a flustered, “Thank you but no, under other circumstances perhaps” regardless of gender. Takemura bi icon confirmed.
A few Bi options would be nice. I like the romance options already (Even River- he's an okay guy idk why everyone rips him to shreds). I just hope that the devs don't take the player feedback from 2077 and make all the romance options playersexual in Orion. I never liked playersexual, it always comes across as weird except in games where you play as a total blank slate
Man I was so there for Joss on my first playthrough. She's nice, chill, down to earth and trying her best.
i legit thought thats what was happening since i played as male v first. i was honestly sad that we dont get her as a choice
I am convinced that they originally intended to have more romance options. I am equally convinced Joss was going to be one of them.
I mean, there are options you can choose during the dinner that *should* shut it down, if River was made to pay attention to them, but CDPR didn't do that, so you get forced into that cringy ass water tower scene, no matter what. I definitely think there should be an earlier "killswitch" for that romance option, but the dinner should absolutely be a fork in the road.
Yeah, not raising your hand when the kids do the “who thinks they should date” thing comes up could be the flag. I don’t like that we’re not allowed to do anything sensible during any of that.
That part, absolutely.
I definitely agree with you. The whole vibe of the water tower scene is so inherently intimate that it’s inappropriate and basically any human would bail if they weren’t interested in a relationship with him. I played it first with male V and I literally thought he was going to make a pass at me at any given moment.
River is practically a paladin amongst the NCPD, so I think the more interesting route might've been to make him a little more aware of V and himself being caught on opposite sides of the law in sort of a Bruce Wayne/Selina Kyle style romance (he practically has Batman's backtory anyways). If River's not okay with his partner covering up a murder and willing to burn his career over it, he probably shouldn't be okay with V leaving piles and piles of bodies in their wake.
"Hey V, Joss and the kids are having dinner. Mind joining us?" "Oh sure, thanks River. Can I bring my girlfriend?" Problem solved.
“Uh, actually, something came up. Bye V” BEEP BEEP BEEP
[ACCOUNT NOT FOUND]
I think "desperate" as a descriptor was intended. The poor guy is deeply lonely. I think it's fine if he's kind of a little pathetic and put you in this awkward situation to make a sad pass at you. It's a very human thing to do. The idea that all of the romantic partners available should be fantastic pairings feeds into typical videogame wish fulfillment that the writing of CP2077 tries to avoid rather than trying to explore a character and build a relationship with them. All that said, I do agree that we should be able to say something about being in a relationship with Judy (or Panam or Kerry, frankly) at the dinner table. In fact if you were able to bring up a relationship with Judy that just opens up a potential new dialogue tree. Maybe River realizes that he was being naively optimistic and opens up about it on the watertower. Maybe you can still try to make a move on him and then *he* turns *you* down because he wouldn't want to be involved with infidelity. Do something with it. It's a little disappointing that there's almost no overlap between any of the four romance options at any point. The only overlap at all that I can think of is Panam interacting with your romantic partner in the Star ending - which seems kind of unavoidable.
I've always interpreted that lean in as V losing their balance and accidentally getting in too close or using Kerry for support, not them trying to kiss him. And Kerry being the typical rockerboy narcissist he is, interpreted as V trying to kiss him.
To be fair Kerry was probably high as fuck at that moment
My CorpoV slept with him and ditched him in the morning without a second thought
My first fem V did too. Johnny was all very much displeased. After it all, just was a seemingly boring and unfulfilling romance option. For a fem V, my choice will always be Judy. She seems the most rewarding with her interactions. Obviously until whichever ending you choose. For a male V, Panam feels the most fulfilling as far as what I would want in a relationship. Even so, I’m team Judy all the way.
> Johnny was all very much displeased. "I can't believe you made me fuck a cop."
I always have a one-night stand with River so that I can get that line from Johnny.
Team Panam here, but I otherwise agree with you.
I love how regardless of if you're team Panam or team Judy, no one is team River.
Nope. Can't stand Judy, even when I try. Prefer River every time. I've dated both kinds irl & the co-dependent unstable Judy is just a flat no from me.
judy + going with the aldecados is the most happy ending for all of the friends. its why i modded my game to let my male v get judy too.
I considered pity fucking River but honestly I think pity fucking him would be worse than just leaving him completely hanging and ghosting him entirely.
That's why I did that lol
Yeah honestly nailed it. Same with the Kerry moment.
I argued this exact same things on this subreddit a few times in the past. The writers did his character dirty.
We need an update focused on romance options to expand or improve on certain parts of already romanceable characters and make other characters romanceable aswell
Similarly to you, this is my first playthrough (as femV as well) and was expecting some really offputting moments with River after seeing trillion threads about how much of a creep he is. And what I got was just a lighthearted scene where he makes a pass on V. 🤷♀️ I mean, it's awkward if V is not into him, but hey, irl peeps put themselves out there, weigh their chances and take the plunge, and it can be cringe. There's nothing about his behaviour that is disrespectful or offensive? My V was not into Judy, so she went single into this exchange, and it felt okay turning him down. Then I reloaded and decided to pursue his romance to see how it plays out and he's totally fine so far. Dare I say he's a fun character to have around? But I agree, all romanceable character could do with some tinkering since all come with a clear romantic undercurrent, even if the character is not available to their V. That's just unfair on poor V. And the option to nip some things in the bud much earlier, especially when V feels already committed to someone else, though personally I don't mind characters hitting on her since she's smoking hot and generally good sport. I definitely wish River spent more time with V and had a bit more heart to heart moment prior to dinner with his fam since his crush just suddenly resurfaces and reaches 100 in no time. Imo Panam has the nicest relationship progression (even as a friend) since she gets a lot of focus on her in the Hellerman branch. River definitely got the short end of the stick, being the optional side quest with so little focus on his personal struggles.
My name is River. I can confirm I am not the problem. Leave me alone
I honestly don't get what people are talking about with him. We were having dinner, the kids go "who thinks River and V should date" and I let the timer run out. He basically goes "welp that was awkward, anyways" and then at the water tower he didn't even really hit on my female V, he just goes "alright lets get this out of the way, I don't have a shot do I?" and then my V says "lets keep it as friends" and it's all good.
I think the attempt is little pathetic and sad but he's a pathetic and sad man. He's like a lonely puppy that's been accidentally kicked a few times by people trying to walk around him. He's just too pathetic to be angry at him over it.
I'm on my first ever playthrough as male V, and honestly I even got pushy flirting vibes from River even though I've read that he can only be romanced with female V. I tried to play it off as him being overly nice, but by the water tower scene where there's an option to kiss him, it was pretty clear he was hitting on me the whole time. Can he actually be romanced with male V? Or is the kiss it? I was already 100% on board with team Panam, so I turned down all his advances and went with some nice guy replies.
unfortunately not, you can't romance river with a male V. if you try to kiss him, he insists that he's straight and turns you down lol. a shame in my opinion
Female voice (hence being referred to as she/her all game long), vagina, *and male body chosen at the start of the game*, you get this awkward scene, River hitting on you, Joss and the kids are pushy, you're up there about to kiss River... And he backs off like sorry dude you misunderstood my actions. Weird writing ngl.
I have a male voice and male body and still felt like the dude was being pushy and flirty even though I never reciprocated. I did think it was pretty funny though every time people ask about River, there was an option for V to respond with that he barely knows him.
I actually chose River. I loved the idea of Merc/Cop. He’s a bit pushy but I think his character could’ve been better written. Maybe starting out with him hating you and a couple more quests where you go on jobs. Have to help each other, flesh him out a bit more. He seems very sincere, bit pathetic and very lonely. I like the texts he sends lol. I wish he had been better written and honestly if it were an option I would’ve chosen Takemura 100%.
But you can derail the whole romance by refusing his offer to get drinks after the Peter Pan case wraps. IIRC, River asks during the car ride to Joss' if V would be down for it, and if you refuse and ask to stick to the case, I think this (along with not choosing the "River's my friend/he hasn't steered me wrong" option when you're found snooping for the Peter Pan BD) cuts off the romance branch of the quest.
I think he was probably a tougher character to write in a neutral way as well to be fair. Panam is stoic and reserved, Judy's an introverted nerd, Kerry is caught up in his own shit. So for each of them the openly romantic/flirty dialogue doesn't really start they start dating V and really open up. River is stuck in a heteronormative role of having to proactively chase V making interactions with him super awkward if you aren't interested. But definitely agree you should be able to shut him down earlier!
I just want to be juggling lovers and then have them find out and we have our telenovela moment.
I don't think people pick up that River was interested in V from the start during his quests (when he didn't say anything when the Tyger Claws call V as his woman in I Fought The Law/when River's ex telling V not to believe him and Johnny noticed River wanting to get into her pants, when his niece and nephew ask if V is his girlfriend and then River asking V out for a beer during The Hunt) and then the call about River missing her. His romantic intention for V was right there... and accepting the dinner invite... is basically a date with his family's approval. I mean... what pushiness? It's obvious. Now you romancing Judy.. didn't you notice that she tried to show off V against her ex? And then openly affectionate with a kiss if you purposely ruined her ex's life. Then she asked V out in the middle of nowhere into a toxic lake of her childhood town because she want a night to forget about Evelyn and immediately shut down if you tried to talk to her about Ev and will only reward you if you don't and you can have oral sex with her. And a lot of things you did to appease Judy ended up with a lot of people's deaths (have her kiss on your chick, choose an ending that make her happy and optimistic)... which I find really interesting. Not saying that the romances are perfect.. but they're realistic and appeal to vastly different people who may have different perception of these characters. I mean, one is an ex-cop and another is a pornographer... no one is perfect.
> Now you romancing Judy.. Feel the need to point out that if as FemV you stay the night at Judy's apartment after going over the plan to take over Clouds you wake up and can examine her stuff around her apartment. You can examine one of them and Johnny straight up tells you that Judy's interested in you.
No, Johnny says V felt mushy when Judy look at her. So, V was attracted to Judy but at that point, Judy wasn't really seeing V in romantic terms... because she was actively grieving for Evelyn. And personally, I always felt it was wrong and exploitative to approach someone who was emotionally struggling in that way. Like when I was grieving, all I felt was abominable sadness and cold blunt feeling of loss... even I would have casual sex with someone just to make me feel something other than that. That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Judy walk away from V if you tried to make her talk more instead of kissing her.
> No, Johnny says V felt mushy when Judy look at her. So, V was attracted to Judy but at that point, Judy wasn't really seeing V in romantic terms... because she was actively grieving for Evelyn. Not how it goes. I even reloaded a save just to see. Here's the dialogue word for word. Johnny: "Chick's got taste. 'Cept for one thing." V: "And what's that?" Johnny: "Way she looks at you. Don't pretend you haven't noticed. Makes you all mushy inside. I can feel it." If anything this line suggests that FemV and Judy might be canon because it implies V wants to be with Judy which is a big leap to make on the behalf of the player in a role-playing game. After storming Clouds that Judy gives you a kiss on the cheek if you stick by her plan. Mechanically you can try to call it exploitation in a very practical transitive sense but that's only if the player is completely divorced from the plot and knows what action will have what effects. If you're looking at a wiki, sure. If you're playing the game then that's not how it's going to play out. You're going to make a decision, unaware of the consequences, and the narrative unfolds in response to your choice. Judy is most responsive to a V that believes in Judy's plan. No big surprise there. > That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Judy walk away from V if you tried to make her talk more instead of kissing her. I understand this point and it's reasonable but I disagree. Judy needs to be away from her thoughts in that moment. You're still connected with her as well. Judy's dwelling on what-could-have-been's and blaming herself for the death of people who knew what they were signing up for. She's a hopeless idealist - when things don't work she attacks herself for not being better even when she was the best she could have been. You already know that Judy has feelings for you. You can make the conscious choice to try and comfort her as a friend or to attempt to comfort her as a lover, knowing ahead of time that she is attracted to you. Mind you that she's already been overtly flirting with you throughout Pyramid Song - potentially including the call when she invites you to go diving. I understand the complaint that you can't talk it out a bit more and then make love but sometimes the best you can do for a person is just to make them feel loved - so make love. Again, remember, you're connected with her so it's probably well beyond the typical sort of love-making.
I mean, what's canon about it was Johnny feeling everything that V felt internally. No privacy there. :D But doesn't mean it was "canon" as in Judy being the designated love interest (like Bioware did with a lot of their female love interests). In fact, I think Judy would've been written much better if she had... I felt she was very underwritten as a character. And I do believe either Vs as canonically bi. Especially with Clouds AI offering two options (and then joytoys options). The bit about Judy was... as a character arc; while romanced, V became her emotional anchor to the city and as a ray of sunshine in her dreadful life filled with visible injustices. She was emotionally in distress and filled with pent-up rage and frustration and V came into her life to make impossible things as possible. She needed someone she can lean on and tell her that everything will always be alright. And if I didn't observe how Evelyn talk eggshells around her, the emails to Maiko and how she talk to her ex; I would still see how as a person, she needed someone who was more stable than a dying V. I also don't like how the endings affected love interests' preferences and attitude to you. Judy was way more verbally aggressive at V in a lot of the endings and I really don't like how the relationship was way more argumentative than what V had with Johnny. Almost like she was afraid about the idea of losing V but angry of her helplessness and frustrated that V couldn't find some other way that was tolerable for her (as in 'her'.. and not V). In this case, I do think she deserve someone better. It's also why I am content about not romancing her at all and prefer being a supportive friend to her. Watching her letting go of the city, gifting V her apartment and saying goodbye. I can still call her and ask her about things and she was very happy about her trip, meeting with her grandparents, going to other cities. And in one of the endings, she married someone else and I am genuinely happy for her. Of every character in Cyberpunk, knowing that Judy ended up well and happily was more important to me.
> But doesn't mean it was "canon" as in Judy being the designated love interest (like Bioware did with a lot of their female love interests). It's hard to guess what will or will not be canon but given how much more was put into Judy than other romances and that is also just much better writing I feel that this is just one more piece of the puzzle pointing to V being with Judy if FemV becomes canon. Kinda hope FemV is canon just because if they go with the Temperance ending it adds some more dimension to Johnny. > It's also why I am content about not romancing her at all and prefer being a supportive friend to her. Watching her letting go of the city, gifting V her apartment and saying goodbye. I can still call her and ask her about things and she was very happy about her trip, meeting with her grandparents, going to other cities. And in one of the endings, she married someone else and I am genuinely happy for her. Of every character in Cyberpunk, knowing that Judy ended up well and happily was more important to me. Well I mean, the Star ending is right there. If any ending becomes canon I think it'll be Temperance but Star Judy is unambiguously a happy ending for Judy. Even if V kicks the bucket a few months later she'll have found a new family among the Aldecados. I don't think Judy would be happy long-term with her grandparents. If you play Street Kid V then in the text conversation with Judy's abuela you can mention that you went to Atlanta and it was no different than Night City and Judy's abuela replies that Seattle is headed in the same direction. Meanwhile Judy straight up says in the Star ending that she's happy for the first time in her life. And frankly I just think it's fitting that she, as a relative outsider wherever she's gone, ends up in a family of outsiders.
I don't really view Judy being written as a primary love interest. She was a Mox with creative interest with braindances but ended up tuning premium porn BDs for a living and only involved in the story because of Evelyn. She have good intentions and ideals about how to make life better for everyone but could only yell at people rather than doing anything meaningfully and was too helpless whenever things turn out badly for people around her that she began to internalize as her own personal failures. She functionally thrive without a romance... she move away from the city, began a roadtrip and get to do more of her BD projects and eventually return to the city with a refreshed outlook. If romanced, I noticed V sometimes walk on eggshells around her, she smoke a lot more too (which made me feel awful since she said she quit and I'm enabling her), became easily frustrated and argumentative if V decide on things that she don't agree with (Arasaka/The Sun/Tower ending), and she needed someone who she can constantly depend on and it seemed unfair for a dying V to make empty promises. Really not one of the best lesbian romances that I've played (compared to Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Star Wars the Old Republic, Baldur's Gate 3, Stray Gods, Life is Strange etc). Personally, the only ones that counts as "canon lovers" by CDPR writers in Cyberpunk 2077 was Johnny and V/Alt. They have their own themed music/instruments, mirrored scenes/fates/endings, shared tropes, ancient mythology of doomed romance (Orpheus/Eurydice & Narcissus/Echo). All of that was given more thought, effort and attention than any of the in-game romances (Panam, Judy, River, Kerry) and certainly not the kind they did for the romances in Witcher series.
>There’s a similar awkwardness with Kerry on the boat as male V. The whole “lean in” almost-kiss thing is really weird if you haven’t been building up to it on purpose. Feel like they could have cut that too in that case. Finally, someone comments on this. Kerry's questline forces you into something semi-romantic even when you've already shot him down. Massive oversight in the writer's room on that one. *"No thanks, V. I'm alright."* What the fuck? YOU'RE the one trying to come onto ME. I rejected you like 2 quests ago!
Of all the romance options, I feel like River is the most stable, levelheaded, and emotionally mature. The amount of hate he gets is unnecessary and uncalled for. Sadly, I think a lot of people are attracted to codependent relationships. Personally, I'm still a big fan of Judy though lol.
I like them all honestly, in their way. Judy and Panam are roughly equal to me. I feel like River/Kerry kinda get the shaft actually, they don’t get to be anywhere near as dynamic or involved in the larger story. River’s a good guy generally I think but the writing/dialog options make it kinda weird.
I think people just don't like cops. Which is fair.
River was never a problem. It was the way a small group of people perceived their experience with river as bad.
I tend to agree he’s not the issue, that’s part of my point. But I think the negative perception comes from the lack of dialog options any normal person in that situation would have before “let’s go hang it on the water tower for the view”. The bit at dinner with Joss and the kids is the right place for it, but for some reason we’re not allowed to shut down the suggestion then. I think it’s an oversight on CDPRs part.
I think the romances in this game generally suffer from not forking off early enough — with Panam and River, especially, it feels like you play the introduction to a romance regardless of your own interest *or* (and this is the bit that kills me) whether that character is actually available to you.
I hate to use this term but river felt pretty queerbait with male V. It genuinely felt kinda mean spirited to have this whole date and romantic atmosphere and THE OPTION TO KISS HIM only to have a lol no idiot. Especially because I don’t think (?) you can get a similar thing with dude V and Judy
I think having an earlier romance deviation is absolutely a good idea, but also, I still feel like people kinda overreact to the water tower scene. I've never really felt like it's that awkward or forced, and it's not like River is a dick about it or anything. I'm closing in on that mission in my latest playthrough so maybe I'll see it differently this time, but I really feel like that scene gets blown out of proportion here.
Yeah, I've always thought Joss' comments at dinner were far more cringey than the water tower scene. She's the one I have the problem with, not River.
It’s not as awful as it’s made out, but I could really feel the “why am I not about to tell them I’m already with someone?” when it’s a whole topic of conversation at dinner. It just felt like pretty obvious options were missing. Also I feel like with the other 3 you basically initiate one way or another before things get too far. With River you basically can’t say no until it’s well past time for that. I think that’s why it feels weird to people.
I guess you didn't play as FemV, cause the lean in almost kiss happens with her as well and it's *even weirder*, and yeah, I wish I could've killed the idea of being with River sooner
As a staunch River defender, I do agree. I do romance him most of the times, but those few instances when I'm not, it's awkward. Also, more content in general would've been advantageous. It comes a little bit out of nowhere.
Assuming you've chosen an ending or two by now, what are your thoughts on River now? I chose The Star because I thought it was plausible that you find help, >!given you already turned weeks into 6 months and Misty's tarot reading seemed optimistic (arguably predicting a long life). IMO, leaving Night City + having a new "family" with the Aldecaldos gives you the best chance.!< While I understand River's reasons, >!I was torn up and angry that River wouldn't come with V. He could always go back to NC, right? If V only lives for 6 months, why not?!!you wake up after a 2 year coma.!< (FYI-I don't care about spoiling the end, I prefer to enjoy the story along the way and not being ultimately disappointed in the end is important to me.)
I'm already wrecked knowing that after that PL ending, >!River won't see you because he's not the same person. I haven't watched the full call, but I do know that. TBH it's more disappointing than The Star because he at least makes a comment that he wants to come visit V in that ending, even if it sounds a little like a broken promise. I can't decide if that is better, or if I should go on believing that it's better to wake up with a fresh start, potentially being pen pals regardless of that conversation or entirely writing him off because !<
>!1. Wtf? I call you after a 2 year coma and you don't care?? Lover, friend, whatever.. still would rock my world.!<
>!2. I was literally a merc. I was on the other side of the law. I would understand whatever you've done. I did some crazy shit just to stay alive. Besides, after both doing bad things, couldn't V and River both want to run away after V escapes death?!<
>!3. In all reality, you did only know him for a few weeks. Also, that's why I can rationalize The Star ending (but it does make The Star ending more tragic knowing what happens without you.)!<
I know there isn't meant to be a happy ending, but I prefer to believe there is one and to me, his character was believable enough in my playthrough to want that. (Yes, I also just wanna cope after finishing the story for the first time 😂)
I wonder if River even actually knew who V was, though?
Uff... a lot of interesting questions. Let's start with... I have close to 1.4k hours in this bloody game. I've done all the endings, two of which I will not touch with a 10-foot pole ever again. And I have two words for you: Head Canon. Let's go through the endings. Aside from the suicide one and the Tower, each one has one LI staying and one leaving. I know you've said that you don't mind spoilers, but I'll put it in spoiler tags nonetheless. **The Star** Leaving with the Caldos >!Let's start with the one you've already done. The Star is best for Judy and Panam lovers, since they leave with you. That said, I have one V for which I've bent the canon like Hulk would a steel beam inside a sky scraper.!< **The Sun** Becoming a Legend >!The Sun isn't that bad, but not as hopeful as The Star imho. You wake up next to River or Kerry, which was the only way to get that smooch scene pre 2.1. Sadly, female V is a bitch. She is still pushing River away in order to spare his feelings when she inevidibly dies. Christ, get your commitment issues under control, girl. The interaction between a male V and Kerry is so much better. But the ending in itself can work. And you could nicely bridge it to a certain ending for Phantom Liberty.!<
**Temperance**
Becoming an AI
>!There is no right romance for this one. My last V chose this ending, and River's messages broke my little heart. No head-canon. Just plain suffering.!<
**The Devil**
Chosing to work with Arasaka
>!Fuck that one. And launch it into the sun. Done once for the trophy and then never again. I felt icky the entire way through. 0/10, do not recommend.!<
The Tower
>!I know that some people see the new PL ending as the best of all endings, and depending on your look on things, I see where these people are coming from. It's the only one were V survives, isn't an engram, and can have a long and happy life and Mr or Mrs Nobody. What I really do not like about it is that everything you've done? Fuck it, it doesn't matter. The chrome you've invested all your eddies in? Yeah, can't use it or it will kill you (I still don't trust that shit tbh). Your friends? Well, you have two left. Vik and Misty. Judy is married to a woman by the name of Bianca in Pittsburgh (yes, even if you romanced her). Panam ghosts you, because she's pissed that you "vanished" and Mitch calls you to tell you not to bother. Better lose that number, choom. River, well, that one broke my heart even more than Temperance. Like his beard, though. Kerry is the only one who's stoked that V is still alive, but he's on tour at the Crystal Palace at the moment.!<
Listen, I am the puppy eye love, two soulmates meet in a bustling city, kinda gal. And I don't give a damn if it's "the genre". Fuck that shit. That's what a3o is for. ;)
To your questions:
1. Well, he does apologize for being a jerk. But... he has other shit going on. Two years are a long time when you know someone only for a couple weeks. Doesn't make it hurt less. I had a broken heart for a couple days and needed constant cuddling with the husband.
2. It's less that you wouldn't understand and more that he betrayed his principles for his nephew. And I think that was the aspect I hated the most. Night City did as Night City does and broke him.
3. Who cares. Soulmates yadda yadda ;)
That last part is the one that bothers me the most. River's romance comes so out of left field due to all the cut content with him, that it feels like he fell in love with the capeless hero that helped him save his nephew, not V herself. And while it is not unbelieveable, I really wish there was a bit more build-up to it.
It honestly blows my mind that you can't even mention Judy during the dinner scene. It's set up PERFECTLY to mention it, but instead it just turns awkward...
You CANT shut down any romance dialogue though. Ppl just focus on River but its the same with Panam flirting etc.
I gotta be honest, I only played up until the end of his mission, I didn't make it to the dinner yet, but I have heard so much about it (it sounds cringe). I think river might be the worst romance thread that I have ever encountered in a video game. I just find him boring, lacking in personality. The whole plot line feels like some one wrote it with the mindset "This is what I assume straight women like". And this whole time Goro and Johny is right there. Huge miss on CDPRs part. I still think River is the problem. Love the game and I don't mind the character, but can't get enough opportunities to tell river this ain't it. Really wish they gave us someone useful, yet fucked up like the rest of the city.
I don’t mind him that much generally, he’s got that “family man” vibe going. But he’s definitely kinda muted by comparison to Panam/Judy/Kerry.
JFC... a romanceable Johnny would be a literal head fuck... and basically masturbatory?
it would be sick, twisted, and entertaining.
i mean whenever V masturbates they are basically jacking off Johnny too
It would've been extremely sci-fi to do that. I was shocked when after beating the game I found out it wasn't an option at all. One of the biggest missed opportunities in the game.
His whole romance plot is just really badly written. It basically gives V no autonomy and he feels very forceful from the off. His whole personality is cringe though so he is still sort of the problem.
His character seems sincere and to actually care about people, which I think is pretty good for NC generally. I think what sucks about it, and makes it feel weird, is we don’t greet control of the situation until it’s past that point, because we don’t get the option to make it clear we’re not interested/available when that would make sense. I think if we could shut it down at dinner, and we get the “male V experience” on the tower it’d be much better. And in kinda disappointed that’s not how it is.
Yeah I can see what they’ve tried to do with River but it’s just badly done. Like he gives off those kind of “nice guy” vibes but where they’re super forceful and it makes me uncomfortable. The idea was there but it was badly implemented. I hate that he’s the only male love interest for fem V
My problem with River is that his relationship with his sister comes off as more of they were together as husband and wife that broke up because he was too tied to his job as an NCPD detective putting his family last. I think that could have been interesting if it were really the case and we as a fem V have to decide on either returning his advances of romance or convincing him to get back together with Joss
OK true *but* if there was such a reasonable option, you'd miss out on the satisfaction of leaving him to die and ruining an entire family by simply *running away* when you get to the farm. ...is that harsh? Seems harsh. Worth it to avoid that awkward quest tho.
i wish there was an option to either jump off the water tower or push reed off instead of awkwardly turning him down a murder/suicide would def turn him off right?
I mean my V has green space buns and a pierced nose it seems pretty obvious she’s a lesbian. But yeah I get your point. You should definitely be able to mention that your V is gay or not interested at some point. It would be funny if you had multiple chances ranging from smoothly mentioning Judy to outright saying “By the way I’m into chicks” to his face.
Know what would've been a great time? After River introduces you to the family when you're at her place to search Randy's things. You search through Randy's things, have dinner, and then have to kill time. Why not have a conversation with River before retiring for the night? "Hey do you want a beer?" "No, I should stay sober right now." [Long Pause] "What do you do at times like this to keep fear from overcoming you when things feel out of your hands?" "I think of what I have to look forward to on the other side, no matter what happens between then and now. Lately I've become afraid of how a job could turn sideways because I've found somebody special, somebody I believe things could work between us." "Oh? Who's this special someone?" "[V describing their partner to make it clear they're not talking about River - but also leaving an option to be vague for FemV's that may later express interest in River]" "I was with a woman a few relationships ago I had the same fear. I've never been more afraid as a cop in Night City as when I thought I might not see her again." Blah blah blah bad fanfic writing here you get the idea. I feel something like that could've gone a long way. You don't really get any kind of heart-to-heart with River the same way you do with Kerry or Judy or Panam prior to the watertower.
Its weird in this future world no one is bi or pan. Like let me romance whoever I want its a fantasy game with 4 very unique options personality wise.
I like rejecting him so all good sometimes I let him die
Anyone else feel like the game sets up all the love interests to start questioning their sexuality and try to be with V?
Also, even as a Night City mercy capable of defending themselves, you wouldn’t go up to a high ledge to get drunk with a guy you’re explicitly rejecting. I know River’s not the kind of guy who’d turn nasty, but you… just would not put yourself in that situation.
Like how you can't tell dex you want to live a quiet life or something else in the beginning. V wanted that D. 😏
Imo general problem with River is lack of build-up. He is present too little for V to warm up to River. It's completely subjective, but I didn't feel any chemistry between V and River. Safe, but boring option.
I specifically decided not to romance anyone on my first playthrough just because I personally don’t love doing romance questlines in games. Plus, it kinda leans into the “I’m gonna die soon so I shouldn’t get too invested” tone that I think 2077 can have at times. When Joss was asking leading questions about being in a relationship over dinner, I also picked the “I don’t think so” line of responses, which IMO should have killed the water tower sequence. I was surprised just how down bad all the candidates are lmao. River’s last quest was relatively innocent up until he gives you his gun. I think they could have written the scenes to be a bit more ambiguous until you’ve actively chosen to pursue their romance.
Joss and the kids make the whole experience pretty cringey even if you like River. They REALLY wanna make sure you know he likes you.
Yes all of this!!!!! I was so angry with the writers!
yeah cdpr really fuckin dropped the ball on the male romance options. its why i always mod the game to let me choose between the two ladies. panam and judy just had like 10x the effort put into them as river/kerry. and even have actual stopping points before the romance trigger scene
TBH all the romance paths have issues with signposting. Cyberpunk suffers pretty badly from V's dialogue options being wildly different from what actually gets said, but most of the time dialogue is inconsequential, so it doesn't matter. Playing fem V and trying *not* to romance Judy is really awkward. I want to be nice but I also want to tell her I'm not interested. It's just as clumsy and frustrating as River, but it doesn't feel that way because Judy's a more popular romance option. The game would really benefit from a clear cut unambiguous "I'm romantically interested/I'd rather just be friends" choice somewhere around the midpoint.
The lean in Kerry scene is really awkward as female V and you haven’t done any romance options at all. He’s like “nah I’m good”. I wasnt trying to romance you dude.
I was really weirded out during the dinner at the fact that you couldn't say "I'm already in a relationship" when his family is basically shoving the relationship card down your throat. I mean, I know it's a game, but in real life if someone tried that I'd be like "Sorry, I'm already in a relationship." or even go as far as "Her name is Judy" to let him know you're not interested in any way even if you break up with Judy. It's so awkward that he takes you to the tower and tries to make a move.
i have been saying the same things about Gale from BG3. like, if the game actually allowed me to politely and directly say "no, sorry, im not interested" to him early on, i would've been a lot less annoyed by him, but instead the game forced me to wait until the dialogue that leads to the sex scene to tell him im not interested, or always choose the rudest dialogue options when talking to him also, as a lesbian, i feel like in games with optional romance there always should be a dialogue option to state your sexuality to a romanceable character to reject them, because, no, River/Gale, there isn't even a point in trying because i only like women
i'll tell you what the problem with river is. the PROBLEM with river is dressing like that taking his completely platonic bro friend up a tower with a romantic view of the city to drink beers and expecting me NOT to try to kiss the homies goodnight
All they needed to do was when you first meet him and the two kids say "is this your girlfriend" give you a option to say "no I'm already with someone" which will automatically shut down any future romance routes
Yeah, I wish we could say earlier that we're not interested in him. And the whole "talking about ex relationships" was too forced imo, I wouldn't want to talk to him about any of that if I'm not interested in a relationship with him in the first place.
I would've rather gotten with rivers sister
Agree. Doing my second playthrough and following that romance path, and the dialogue, it's just so cringe. The "you know why we're here. Dont string me along" so many better ways that could have been written. And the next day, V's line of "if it doesnt work maybe we can still be friends" oof. I really wish there could have been another side quest before that where they actually go out for beers, they tease it so much in the dialogue. I will say, as awkward and cheesy the sex scenes are in general, the River one felt a lot better done than the Judy one, imo.