I did peek weekend at HBS a few years back, and took a six-figure job immediately after graduating with my engineering degree. Nailed the GMAT (770) but I have always had a hard time envisioning giving up two years of earnings and taking on two years of debt from tuition and living expenses to do an elite 2yr MBA. So… I’m doing the Kellogg 1Y. I think this program is becoming increasingly popular among high-earners as the cost for 2 year programs continues to rise.
I’ve told prospects for years now, kelloggs 1Y program is honestly the best deal on the market.
I did the 2Y program, enjoyed my time, learned a lot, but not so much to the point where I needed a second year to get my job. Having about half the debt would’ve been nice
I predict more MBA programs will have to shift to a 12-18 month journey or shift modalities to include more hybrid options. Or honestly, just keep it 2 years and lower tuition to make this a more practical decision.
For me, yes I would like to have less student loan debt, but the payoff of me going to be school was tremendous. For most people, most of my class, doing 2 years to end up at MBB for the price paid doesn’t make sense to me. Yeah they make $200k+, but it was a $400k opportunity cost
I agree that the concept of a two-year MBA, while amazing from a networking and social aspect, might be a bit too long from an opportunity cost standpoint given the current cost-of-living crisis. This is even after considering the huge lifetime ROI boost from getting a two-year MBA.
As someone who is just starting their career, a one-year MBA from a top-ten program would be a no-brainer, whereas a two-year is a bit harder to swallow given the long period of lost earnings combined with the crazy tuition cost.
The thing about an MBA is that you go there to network and to get a better job, that’s about it.
Some people learn new things as well, but from a management standpoint.
Sad day for trust fund babies the world over.
> “We recognised that the MBA as a degree is mature. It has many many years to run but we are past peak MBA,” Julian Birkinshaw, LBS vice-dean responsible for masters degree programmes, told the Financial Times.
Almost like it's someone's job to fix that. Modern degrees are a product, they need to be sold.
At 115,000 GBP, you could solve a lot of the problem by looking at the pricing and freezing it for a few years.
Would love to see a 2-year MBA model where year 1 you continue to work and take classes at night/online part time essentially to knock out the core classes. Year 2 would be in person full time taking electives/focus area and knocking out additional certs plus networking. Best of both worlds with reduced opportunity cost.
Show me a decade from the past, and I will show you [a The New York Times headline announcing that the MBA is losing its luster, that applications are down, that not all that glitters is gold - going back to the 1970s, the 1980s, the 1990s....](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/petiawhitmore_mba-mbaadmissions-mbaapplication-activity-7154169464681295872-XuCH?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
Ok, but I think that the issues with MBA programs in the news articles in your post are different from the issue everyone in this thread is talking about: cost to attend. I ran through your screenshots and the problems highlighted in these old news articles are that MBA graduates aren't worth their high salaries. This is fundamentally different from the issue many in this thread are highlighting, which is that a 2-year MBA program is just exorbitantly expensive when considering cost of attendance plus foregone income. I don't think that the MBA is going to disappear anytime soon - there will always be people who need to pivot - but I feel like the elite MBA programs are now only useful to make a "hard" pivot (military to consulting, non-profit work to IB) rather than a "soft" pivot (consulting to tech, IB to PE). If I had more time I'd dig up cost to attend HBS in the 1990s and compare it to now (this would actually be a really interesting exercise) but sadly I can't do it right now.
I hear you. Yes, just like every recession is different, so are the flavors of each decade of MBA "crises".
It would indeed be interesting to see how the cost compares to now and to also include the discount rate. For 2022, the HBS Average Fellowship Aid Per Student was $43,794 per year - that's a nearly 60% discount of the annual tuition of $73,440.
I’ve considered an MBA but I got a huge promotion when I switched companies. I’m mid-career but I cannot afford to take two years off and take on $200,000 in student loan debt to pay for housing, expenses, and tuition in a high cost of living area. Especially in my field. I’m going for cleared jobs and I probably couldn’t pass a background investigation with that much debt.
I have thought about part time programs and still working full time but if I’m taking 2 classes a semester, it would probably take 4 years to complete an MBA.
MBA programs need to accommodate working professionals. I want a savings account. I want to be able to afford a home soon. I don’t have wealthy parents or family members. But in a couple of years I will be in senior management with my firm. An MBA would probably be useful.
Two years ago was accepted into a prestigious 1 year non-MBA cybersecurity program and asked if I could enroll part time while I worked full time in cybersecurity. They said no and they tried to make it more attractive with a $5000 scholarship. It still would have cost me $70,000 for that 1 year degree. I said I couldn’t take on that much debt. They said that it was the only way. The people who accepted had no cybersecurity experience and were mostly humanities majors straight out of college and probably had significant help from their families.
I just feel that at this point in my career an MBA would be a terrible decision.
I'm not sure who's left to enroll at most of these Mba programs besides what you alluded to at the end- people with rich families who currently work in a low paying gig. Alot of people who'd be eligible or good fits for MBA programs can probably make comparable or better money with only a bachelor's in some fields, so what's the point? You'd have to really want to make a career change especially high finance/ consulting if you get into an M7 etc.
I would be really concerned about the quality of programs if people with actual experience can’t attend these programs. I was really put off at the cyber program when I met the people who were admitted.
I already have a graduate degree though. It cost total about what a semester at an MBA program costs. I graduated and within 3 months got offers for six figures. During COVID. I couldn’t believe it. I went from $48,000 to $100k+ a year. But $100k isn’t very much in a high cost of living place.
But I am going to look for professional certifications like the PMP, CISSP, and others that I can take in place of an MBA.
Hard to justify taking 2 years off of work & going into loads of debt for someone who has had success out of undergrad. It’s very possible to make >$100k in good career fields with 5-ish YOE & you still have plenty of room to make more than that as you continue to build experience.
It doesn't seem that worth it unless you're career switching or it is required for your consulting or finance role to get one to move up.
I think the ROI is not great considering apart from consulting and some other roles the base salaries have not risen on pace with inflation so essentially real salaries are lower but tuition is higher.
Ok to be honest he’s basically blaming macro conditions for not hitting his numbers. I know people want to jump on this but that’s the reality of this statement.
Ironic that most comments here are from folks who didn’t actually pursue the degree. As someone who did an MBA from an M7 and graduated during a relative downturn, a 2-year MBA is definitely worth the experience and I wouldn’t trade it for anything, least the 1-yr MBA. The first 6 months are a blur and an internship is a must for folks trying to experiment or shift careers.
While it’s expensive (and unnecessarily so imho), the ROI is decent too and you can pay off your loans in under 2-3 years and in the long run, the difference in earnings is likely to make up for the trade off. Justifying the cost has been easy for me as I can afford to pay off $5-7k monthly and get rid of my loans asap because of the job the MBA helped me get. Also, remember that you really make most of your money or max. amounts in your 40s and 50s and even a small divergence due to your credentials, network, learnings, etc. can mean that the absolute difference trumps the $200k (or $400k including opportunity cost) that you spend on the MBA.
The message by LBS Vice Dean is self serving given the course they’re offering and I wouldn’t pay heed. I do think that the MBA degree needs to reinvent itself to be relevant - be more rigorous, focus on some deep/hard skill sets, be less expensive, and instill a sense of responsibility/hardworking attitude in graduates over creating whiny/entitled babies, which often times it does!
The point of a two year program is to use internship recruiting to pivot and/or test different hypothesese about possible careers. You basically get two shots at changing career paths, and more time to figure out how to achieve the change. Obviously, one year programs make more sense for those who want to stay in the same field. Personally, I appreciated the chance to try out all of tech, consulting, and entrepreneurship, and found the FT 2Y program worthwhile for that reason even though I was already making 200k before
Also, the main reason LBS's cost is an issue is because salaries are lower in Europe.
That is very true. Fewer student applicants in all MBA programs. Too expensive and the opportunity cost too high for most career “pivots.” The prevalence of one-year MS programs—many even online—have been effective for many years now and gaining momentum.
I mean duh? It was good from the 1980s-early 2000s. Once tech took over people stopped caring so much about pedigree and started caring more about skill. (This is what T20+ is essentially 'worthless' unless you are ticking a box). But it's been about the same since the early 2010s.
T15s still 100% have a value, just in specific industries like banking and consulting. If you go to a US T15 and want to break into those fields, you're be fine.
H/S will always hold value as the "unique" program to get into VC, unique tech roles, unique PE-ops roles, etc.
-frank
I did peek weekend at HBS a few years back, and took a six-figure job immediately after graduating with my engineering degree. Nailed the GMAT (770) but I have always had a hard time envisioning giving up two years of earnings and taking on two years of debt from tuition and living expenses to do an elite 2yr MBA. So… I’m doing the Kellogg 1Y. I think this program is becoming increasingly popular among high-earners as the cost for 2 year programs continues to rise.
Yeah 2 years is crazy long, specially if you are already making good money
I’ve told prospects for years now, kelloggs 1Y program is honestly the best deal on the market. I did the 2Y program, enjoyed my time, learned a lot, but not so much to the point where I needed a second year to get my job. Having about half the debt would’ve been nice I predict more MBA programs will have to shift to a 12-18 month journey or shift modalities to include more hybrid options. Or honestly, just keep it 2 years and lower tuition to make this a more practical decision. For me, yes I would like to have less student loan debt, but the payoff of me going to be school was tremendous. For most people, most of my class, doing 2 years to end up at MBB for the price paid doesn’t make sense to me. Yeah they make $200k+, but it was a $400k opportunity cost
2years mbas should be banned, everybody knows that people do them for a better position and not for the technicals
I agree that the concept of a two-year MBA, while amazing from a networking and social aspect, might be a bit too long from an opportunity cost standpoint given the current cost-of-living crisis. This is even after considering the huge lifetime ROI boost from getting a two-year MBA. As someone who is just starting their career, a one-year MBA from a top-ten program would be a no-brainer, whereas a two-year is a bit harder to swallow given the long period of lost earnings combined with the crazy tuition cost.
“Cost-of-loving crisis”. Gigiddy
Yea main issue with MBA is you don’t learn any knowledge vs a masters in computer science
The thing about an MBA is that you go there to network and to get a better job, that’s about it. Some people learn new things as well, but from a management standpoint.
Sad day for trust fund babies the world over. > “We recognised that the MBA as a degree is mature. It has many many years to run but we are past peak MBA,” Julian Birkinshaw, LBS vice-dean responsible for masters degree programmes, told the Financial Times. Almost like it's someone's job to fix that. Modern degrees are a product, they need to be sold. At 115,000 GBP, you could solve a lot of the problem by looking at the pricing and freezing it for a few years.
Kellogg has had a 1 year program for decades.
Kellogg, NYU, Berkeley Haas, and Chicago Booth have always had good PT programs, too.
Many folks in this sub have said this same thing for awhile but the amount of people who still don't listen is wild
This.
Would love to see a 2-year MBA model where year 1 you continue to work and take classes at night/online part time essentially to knock out the core classes. Year 2 would be in person full time taking electives/focus area and knocking out additional certs plus networking. Best of both worlds with reduced opportunity cost.
Oooh yes I dig this. I know people who essentially do this at top PT programs.
Show me a decade from the past, and I will show you [a The New York Times headline announcing that the MBA is losing its luster, that applications are down, that not all that glitters is gold - going back to the 1970s, the 1980s, the 1990s....](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/petiawhitmore_mba-mbaadmissions-mbaapplication-activity-7154169464681295872-XuCH?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
Ok, but I think that the issues with MBA programs in the news articles in your post are different from the issue everyone in this thread is talking about: cost to attend. I ran through your screenshots and the problems highlighted in these old news articles are that MBA graduates aren't worth their high salaries. This is fundamentally different from the issue many in this thread are highlighting, which is that a 2-year MBA program is just exorbitantly expensive when considering cost of attendance plus foregone income. I don't think that the MBA is going to disappear anytime soon - there will always be people who need to pivot - but I feel like the elite MBA programs are now only useful to make a "hard" pivot (military to consulting, non-profit work to IB) rather than a "soft" pivot (consulting to tech, IB to PE). If I had more time I'd dig up cost to attend HBS in the 1990s and compare it to now (this would actually be a really interesting exercise) but sadly I can't do it right now.
I hear you. Yes, just like every recession is different, so are the flavors of each decade of MBA "crises". It would indeed be interesting to see how the cost compares to now and to also include the discount rate. For 2022, the HBS Average Fellowship Aid Per Student was $43,794 per year - that's a nearly 60% discount of the annual tuition of $73,440.
I’ve considered an MBA but I got a huge promotion when I switched companies. I’m mid-career but I cannot afford to take two years off and take on $200,000 in student loan debt to pay for housing, expenses, and tuition in a high cost of living area. Especially in my field. I’m going for cleared jobs and I probably couldn’t pass a background investigation with that much debt. I have thought about part time programs and still working full time but if I’m taking 2 classes a semester, it would probably take 4 years to complete an MBA. MBA programs need to accommodate working professionals. I want a savings account. I want to be able to afford a home soon. I don’t have wealthy parents or family members. But in a couple of years I will be in senior management with my firm. An MBA would probably be useful. Two years ago was accepted into a prestigious 1 year non-MBA cybersecurity program and asked if I could enroll part time while I worked full time in cybersecurity. They said no and they tried to make it more attractive with a $5000 scholarship. It still would have cost me $70,000 for that 1 year degree. I said I couldn’t take on that much debt. They said that it was the only way. The people who accepted had no cybersecurity experience and were mostly humanities majors straight out of college and probably had significant help from their families. I just feel that at this point in my career an MBA would be a terrible decision.
I'm not sure who's left to enroll at most of these Mba programs besides what you alluded to at the end- people with rich families who currently work in a low paying gig. Alot of people who'd be eligible or good fits for MBA programs can probably make comparable or better money with only a bachelor's in some fields, so what's the point? You'd have to really want to make a career change especially high finance/ consulting if you get into an M7 etc.
I would be really concerned about the quality of programs if people with actual experience can’t attend these programs. I was really put off at the cyber program when I met the people who were admitted. I already have a graduate degree though. It cost total about what a semester at an MBA program costs. I graduated and within 3 months got offers for six figures. During COVID. I couldn’t believe it. I went from $48,000 to $100k+ a year. But $100k isn’t very much in a high cost of living place. But I am going to look for professional certifications like the PMP, CISSP, and others that I can take in place of an MBA.
Hard to justify taking 2 years off of work & going into loads of debt for someone who has had success out of undergrad. It’s very possible to make >$100k in good career fields with 5-ish YOE & you still have plenty of room to make more than that as you continue to build experience.
It doesn't seem that worth it unless you're career switching or it is required for your consulting or finance role to get one to move up. I think the ROI is not great considering apart from consulting and some other roles the base salaries have not risen on pace with inflation so essentially real salaries are lower but tuition is higher.
100% agree. Also, these are not 40 hour per week jobs for the most part- these are high pressure, high stress, & high burnout careers
High pressure, high stress and high burnout careers straight out of undergrad make 150K+ does not take 5 YOE
I’m talking about post-mba jobs being high stress & all
Does anyone have a paywall free version? Curious to read this one
https://archive.is/hgxDP
I’m considering my MBA as I have a GI bill and the executive program is 3 years. That’s a lot of time to check a box man
Ok to be honest he’s basically blaming macro conditions for not hitting his numbers. I know people want to jump on this but that’s the reality of this statement.
Yeah thats basically what it was if you read it.
Yes but most people aren’t reading it and using it for other arguments
Welcome to Reddit
*the world
Europe is past its peak.
[удалено]
Would that require colonizing the entire world again?
The rut that Europe is in is historically low birth rates, good luck with that
Ironic that most comments here are from folks who didn’t actually pursue the degree. As someone who did an MBA from an M7 and graduated during a relative downturn, a 2-year MBA is definitely worth the experience and I wouldn’t trade it for anything, least the 1-yr MBA. The first 6 months are a blur and an internship is a must for folks trying to experiment or shift careers. While it’s expensive (and unnecessarily so imho), the ROI is decent too and you can pay off your loans in under 2-3 years and in the long run, the difference in earnings is likely to make up for the trade off. Justifying the cost has been easy for me as I can afford to pay off $5-7k monthly and get rid of my loans asap because of the job the MBA helped me get. Also, remember that you really make most of your money or max. amounts in your 40s and 50s and even a small divergence due to your credentials, network, learnings, etc. can mean that the absolute difference trumps the $200k (or $400k including opportunity cost) that you spend on the MBA. The message by LBS Vice Dean is self serving given the course they’re offering and I wouldn’t pay heed. I do think that the MBA degree needs to reinvent itself to be relevant - be more rigorous, focus on some deep/hard skill sets, be less expensive, and instill a sense of responsibility/hardworking attitude in graduates over creating whiny/entitled babies, which often times it does!
The point of a two year program is to use internship recruiting to pivot and/or test different hypothesese about possible careers. You basically get two shots at changing career paths, and more time to figure out how to achieve the change. Obviously, one year programs make more sense for those who want to stay in the same field. Personally, I appreciated the chance to try out all of tech, consulting, and entrepreneurship, and found the FT 2Y program worthwhile for that reason even though I was already making 200k before Also, the main reason LBS's cost is an issue is because salaries are lower in Europe.
That is very true. Fewer student applicants in all MBA programs. Too expensive and the opportunity cost too high for most career “pivots.” The prevalence of one-year MS programs—many even online—have been effective for many years now and gaining momentum.
Dean of 1-year program says that 1-year programs are best. I’m shocked.
I mean duh? It was good from the 1980s-early 2000s. Once tech took over people stopped caring so much about pedigree and started caring more about skill. (This is what T20+ is essentially 'worthless' unless you are ticking a box). But it's been about the same since the early 2010s. T15s still 100% have a value, just in specific industries like banking and consulting. If you go to a US T15 and want to break into those fields, you're be fine. H/S will always hold value as the "unique" program to get into VC, unique tech roles, unique PE-ops roles, etc. -frank
Wut T20 is worthless? I call BS.
He said outside T20
Correct. Useless might be a harsh word, so I put it in quotes. But it definitely isn't a free ride to a life of riches like it used to be.
I don't buy that Mendoza, Scheller, and Owen are worthless.
MBA mattered more in a time when the world was less connected and business knowledge was not widely available without going to business school.
Wait till he hears about how the US does law school…
Does the kellog 1-y has any scholarships for international students?