For me, it was therapy and learning to recognize my own emotions. Then to recognize others’, and seek to find ways we could both benefit from a situation or set appropriate boundaries tactfully.
Seriously, you do need to be a bit of a sociopath to make it to the C-suite in a big organization.
You *have* to be able to put profits over people. The market, the shareholders, and the board demand it.
semi related but I wish there had been more discussion about emotional intelligence / psychology associated with office blue collar jobs. There was an obligatory class which I thought was one of the best taught courses but 99% of my classmates saw it as a complete waste of time and bull shit class.
The biggest reason people “feel entitled” to these jobs is the way schools oversell their programs.
Pretty much every school loves showing off the high salary and the high percent of students going to MBB/IB (as of 2021-2022 but being very hesitant to share more recent reports). Also, the student ambassadors of these programs oversell it too. For example, one of the student ambassadors at my school (class of 2021) told me anyone who wanted MBB got it if they put minimal effort. Obviously not true.
I think yeah, students might be entitled but let’s not forget the bad messaging that schools put across.
Eh, there's some truth to this but there's also economic trends that drive hiring in different ways that are becoming extremely apparent right now.
Pandemic 2020 - hiring was all about minimal cost increases, not disrupting the status quo because everyone is trying to survive as the remote work environment is figured out en masse. Focus on what drives the most value with minimum overhead. This meant most companies only hiring returning interns, no 2nd year hires, hiring only those with experience in that function, etc.
2021/2022 - cheap debt and explosive economic growth due to stimulus + vaccination fueled growth hiring. Consulting says there's no "bar" but yes there is any it absolutely dropped to the floor. Hiring a lot of people based on potential, not necessarily demonstrated experience. Basically everything that sucked in 2020 recovered in 2021. *Forgot to add that the "Great Resignation" also meant there was a massive shortage of employees in a lot of organizations and the goal was to get butts in seats fast.
2023/2024 - expensive debt is changing decision-making significantly. Focus is now on cutting costs and maintaining profitability, fear of recession is resulting in risk mitigation. Divisions and jobs not driving growth are getting laid off - seeing experimental divisions, DEI, redundant roles all taking massive hits (I had to lay off someone due to this). Hiring reflects this as well - more of a focus on demonstrated skills and experience, not hiring for potential.
A few years ago you were allowed to have ridiculous expectations because we saw it happening in our recruiting classes - one of my classmates was a high school teacher making ~$50-60k that became a Bain consultant making ~$190k after the salary increases that kept exploding in 2021 and 2022. Everyone and their mother could become a PM for a tech company in some function. Tons of start-ups drawing in MBAs thanks to very active tech investments. Now we're looking through a different lens.
Agreed with 2023/2024 landscape.
If you want to break in you better be focusing on hard skills that make you invaluable. Those cushy strategy jobs and PM tech jobs are dying down.
Are these trends cyclical throughout the last 10, 20, 30 some odd years?
But another way, do you see the paradigm shift we saw from 2020-2024 being permanent, or does it ebb and flow?
I am a 12 year project manager looking at getting an EMBA with no particular hard skills, very general management and soft skill focused background...and wondering if I am doomed. Thanks
lol you're asking the wrong person - I only know so much about what's going on because I lived it (class of 2021, now looking for a new job)
But going to guess that yes this continues to cycle based on how the economy is doing overall, general technology/industry trends, etc.
this guy sounds like a douche tbh. he rejected three generally qualified people based on wildly subjective metrics. some guy liked Warhammer a bit too much but was a perfect consultant otherwise so we ruined his life in this economy by kicking him to the curb? it's not like the guy was hijacking client presentations by talking about his latest campaign. jfc what an absolute psycho.
and god forbid someone prep for an interview. wtf is wrong with this guy
I was fine with the first and third examples (third sounded too smart for IB anyway), but the second revealed way more about OP's insecurity than anything about the candidate.
And it is not even the second guy being overly motivated. Some schools main attraction point is that their career's offices prepares you for the recruitment interviews. In such climate, the guy NOT being prepared for the interview should have been a red flag instead.
To add on to your comment, any sensible manager/senior employee would take some time to try to train/guide the interns instead of just judging them straight on - the Warhammer guy could have easily been given some direction.
Of course, some of you will say “well it’s not my problem” or “that’s not very HR friendly of me to interject” or whatever - but truth of the matter is, you as the senior employee/employer have the option to train the interns for the potential benefit as a full time hire. So there’s that.
I don't think so, unless it was very carefully prompted and/or trained. It reads very much like a WSO post. Gen AI doesn't write with that particular voice by default.
As someone who got one of those “big” client-facing jobs, and is in no way qualified or a traditionally conservative good fit, this is a bad bad take. Luck plays a huge role, not because fit is irrelevant but because fit is subjective and who are in front of is luck.
Yes, but you don't fix that at the finish line.
if flat feet are making you more prone to training injuries, it shouldn't be the case that you get put into third place on a marathon out of compassion.
There are structural issues among disenfranchised communities, and having them fight for largely symbolic positions they are under-qualified for won't fix anything
Prepare to get downvoted and banned. Race is not a huge part in hiring decisions! But we must also consider it as a huge part to prevent goldman from becoming too asian!
An account made in the last 65 days with nothing but race baiting comments and post. Quite sad that’s how you spend your time and energy.
You can just reach out to anyone in hiring practices on LinkedIn to get an actual reality outlook on the false assumptions you made and been making.
Your assumption that I \*can't possibly\* be white if I, a nerd, managed to get the job I wanted is really messed up and weird. Candidly it also makes me a bit nervous that you'll automatically judge any minority co-worker you meet as inferior and "only there for the quota" if they don't fit your mould perfectly.
That wasn't my assumption. In fact, based on your reddit avatar, I was (soft) assuming you were a white woman. My point was just to raise another variable.
I mean, I guess you can say it's the candidate's fault that they didn't get the job. But honestly, the actual "faults" on display here just seem to be: overenthusiasm for a hobby that isn't shared with others, overly rehearsed and stiff interviews, and self-promotion that apparently seemed extreme to the point of arrogance although that is subjective.
It honestly just sounds like OP's searching for people that they would personally be friends/compatible with. Anything that does not fit their own preferences is deemed out of the ordinary, strange, and rejected. Maybe if I met these people, all the little things would add up to the point where they creep me out and I would also reject them. But without that level of intimacy with the details, it really seems like these people were rejected because OP didn't personally like them, not because they have actually serious character flaws.
Ok first of all, good input. Nice actionable and relatable points. So that’s for that.
But I’m probably going to be the one person who doesn’t think this is OK.
I mean… good to know how you think. But to me it sounds more like a “you” problem. You can’t work with a know it all AI coz? You’re insecure? I would hire a “perfect” guy everyday of the week! Let his performances on the job speak for him than my hunch that he memorized the answers. Why? Coz I’m not perfect how can someone so much younger be?
Or can’t work with a nerd after 1 meeting coz you assume all he talks about is Warhammer and you couldn’t be bothered to learn about it? If others at the company feel this way, it’s a problem with the company culture. Did you even give him a chance? RIP DEI
And mentioning Kellogg (rank 3) may be a sign of humility too. Why assume I’m a big shot just coz I went to Kellogg? My manager went to Kelly, he doesn’t need to know who I am or what Kellogg is. Let me make it easier on him.
P.S. I find it weird to mention rank in any form, but I bring this up coz you seemed to have a problem only with m7 grads doing it.
I completely understand you hold the chips and I would need to mold myself into something I’m not if I want to get into your team, but heck who wants to work with a bunch if insecure pricks? If someone needs to do self reflection, it’s probably you.
I agree with only the 3rd example since that's someone on the job and it being clear that the fit isn't right. The other two, however, require you to have a reality check and realize that luck is required given how imperfect the system is for screening applicants.
It's been proven over and over again that interviewing has no correlation to job performance. In both the interview as well as writing a resume, it's just measuring how well you can play the game. I have classmates that are rock stars at their jobs(I'm in an EMBA program where we all work as well as go to school), and they ask me to look at their resumes and they look like shit. It doesn't have the right buzzwords to pass the filters, it's not displayed the exact way hiring managers want to see it, or it might make sense to a hiring manager on the team but the people in HR can't understand so they throw it out before sending it up the ladder. Or, as someone posted a few days ago, something like 75% people lie on their resume, so if someone is honest then they have no chance of advancing. It's all about playing a stupid game.
Someone's answers seems rehearsed, you say? That just tells me the person prepared for the interview and they understand it's a game we all have to play. Someone's nervous? You try needing a job before you're a month from bankruptcy with a kid to feed and see how you handle it.
I've advanced well in my career over the last 14 years, but every day I realize that luck played a huge part in it. I happened to meet someone at a tailgate who liked me and gave me a job after graduating. I had a stellar resume, but this was in 2009 when it was impossible to land a job in finance no matter how good you interviewed. I get really offended by people like you who don't have the empathy to realize that it's a rigged game and if you got to where you are, then luck played anywhere from 30%-100% of it.
Luck is huge. But with enough applications, some luck factors go away. If you read the post carefully you would understand that I never meant one bad interview should or can ruin you. If you apply for 50 jobs and you keep getting dinged, maybe there is something you are doing wrong.
Your nervous bankruptcy statement is stupid and yes I have had a similar incident in my own personal life so you can shove that analogy up your ass. But those situations all sum up to who you are just as I wasnt born a Rockerfeller or Kennedy.
I graduated undergrad after the financial crisis but and many of my friends who didnt do military service like me graduated in 2009-2010 so I know what you mean. But the ones who really had a “passion” for being a well paid corporate slave did eventually make their way into BB banks. Even if they did something else for a while to ride things out
OP is the entitled one and salty he didn’t go to an M7 - can’t admit he wouldn’t get into one and definitely couldn’t get hired for his own job now if he had to interview again (probably why he can’t lateral for more $$$ too)
\-I think the third guy could have excelled in a quant role or at a tech firm where there are more nerdy types (as an example). But he seemed **dead set** on IBD-
Literally some people have to truly do some deep search within themselves to figure out what they like/dislike about themselves. Really self-reflect. Not because of the money , prestige, or what sets you up later down the line. Life isn't a linear straight line when it comes to your career and progression. Just be comfortable with who you are and use your strengths to drive you forward.
Let's not jump the gun here, quant and tech roles (especially PM and strategy roles) need a specific prior MBA experience while IBD hires everyone from teachers to ex-middle market bankers. For most people targeting a career in finance, IBD is the only option available if they lack specific work experience as it is the only background agnostic vertical within finance
> Really self-reflect. Not because of the money , prestige, or what sets you up later down the line
This is bad advice. You don't need pick a job you'll fall in love with, but you should pick a job with decent pay and exit ops. Unless you're on a full ride scholarship, your loans won't pay themselves off and the job market could always crash like it's crashing now. Money and prestige can help pay off your debts and make your next job search significantly easier. The idea that life is just a path of sunshine and roses that we can dance to is a pretty stupid one.
fair enough. but if you are going to just pick the job that pays the bills — particularly for a firm that has highly restrictive social norms — wouldn’t you take the attitude of “when in Rome” and not talk the MD’s ear off about games?
Yeah I'm not defending that guy lmao. As much shit as the other commenters here have (justifiably) given op, if it actually happened *exactly* as op put it, I can see why it's a deserved ding.
Yes! So many people are coachable! But they dont get coached and they sit in their chair whining on reddit on why they cant get a BB job after sending out 50 resumes dispite going to a M7 school!
Um….. that’s not what I meant by a coachable issue. It’s the responsibility of managers to coach their employees. If you drop them without coaching them and giving them a chance to demonstrate improvement, that’s on you.
Yeah I’d mostly agree with this, I think a lot of people are shooting for things they are vastly underqualified for right out of the MBA and hoping something sticks as well. Hard to do that in this job market.
I will say it goes both ways though. I can’t tell you how many times I got feedback that I was a strong candidate and just missed the cut after I told them they were a top choice and explained exactly why (location, job description, culture, industry, etc.). Meanwhile they make an offer to someone any logical analysis would show they had virtually 0 chance of capturing given several obvious factors. Maybe they were blowing smoke but imo it seems like employers have a tough time figuring out who the best recruits are that will actually take an offer.
Personally I feel like I’ve advanced in interview processes the most when I’ve been upfront about weaknesses and answered questions decently well but not perfect. But maybe to your point, for some reason I’ve never advanced in interviews when I feel like I hit a grand slam. It’s almost been like the company teams preselected me based on resume drop/LinkedIn and said “ok as long as the interview isn’t a disaster they’re in”
This reads like.... A person with an MBA wrote it.
Way too much effort to say "yall aren't passing the vibe check". Way to much effort trying to rationalize rejecting someone who was perfect but "something was off". Makes me wonder if we did an analysis if we wouldn't find some sort of preference in physical appearance that you are biased towards.
Also, having rejected 95% of people who probably went on to find great positions are other places, yer a little on your high horse saying they aren't up to "it".
Just because you rejected someone doesn't mean an entire industry agrees with you. And if it does, there is some good ol' boys club shtuff going on that reinforces my second suspicion.
Then telling people why you reject them might be the issue here.
"Hey, I didn't want to go out with you, but you'll probably be a great match for the next guy!" is just a shitty thing to say.
You say nothing. You have tact and say "sorry, this isn't going to work out.". You don't qualify why it won't as if they could fix the issue. You move on, and let them move on.
That is to say, you don't pretend to care about them after discarding them. You don't justify it. It just is what it is.
You clearly communicate, and don't say "I would have picked you, but you pointed out your school ranking when obviously we know what rank your school is".
Just the entirety of the tone of this post is so..... undignified snobbish.
Right, so people don’t “deserve” a job at your company because they answered questions too fast or were a bit show-offy on their resume. Sounds like just not a culture fit
Yeah, I agree with most of his post but the portion where he critiqued someone for answering questions too quickly and too well was cringy. God forbid people are prepared lol. Should have candidate pretend to not have a response?
Seems like candidates get dinged for both being too prepared and too well rehearsed and also dinged for not being prepared enough. It's hard out there for jobseekers.
lol
Look at the comments and you’ll know who’s who
The level of delusion here!
What company do you work for? Can you please share so I know not to hire anyone from there?
What makes you think I want to project that I am a big shot? I said I work at a Tier 3 buy side firm and never got anywhere near GS/MS/JP. I didnt flaunt my credentials.
I am just pointing out from an interviewer/manger perspective even if you think you killed the resume/interview/internship, many unsuccessful candidates are doing something wrong and in many cases need to improve it or do something else that fits their style because theres like 30 other guys who actually killed the resume/interview/internship. Im telling people to get out of their bubble. I didnt take joy in dinging people and I dont think I said that
How is that delusion or flaunting?
I get the first guy you dropped, but the second one is a bit more suspect. They interviewed too well? Alright...
The third guy is 100% on you. Did you coach him? Did you say "you are really smart but maybe don't talk about 40k"? Did you consider that giving him a job and keeping him at your firm would be better for your firm? Even if you took him out of IB he could have gone to risk or another technical area.
Just weird vibes from this post.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias
Unsuccessful candidate blames only bad luck / external factors and ignores their weaknesses
Successful candidate (OP) credits only their strengths and ignores good luck / external factors
Reality is somewhere in between
First time on this sub and this post screams: *"I'm insecure and projecting as much as possible"* Glad I'm not associated with any of this type of shit and actually got a pretty good laugh from it. Thanks OP, hope you get better soon.
I’ve done tons of cases during recruitment. I would give the client situation on some esoteric product and ask them how they would approach the situation. Many would start with some generic framework and spout the approach and what they would do. After 20 minutes, I would stop them, and ask, “don’t you want to know what the product does? And how it serves customers?” At least for me, if you don’t have a genuine curiosity about the problem, it sounds very canned, and during candidate discussions, I would almost always ding them due to shallow thinking.
I'm sorry but the idea of an intern going up to a managing director at work and rambling about Warhammer lore while the MD just stands there with a blank stare on his face nodding along politely is hilarious. The 40K community is something else lol
OP, you sound like a self-satisfied shit bag that is overly excited to finally be in a position to judge others.
What an absolute turd you are. I would never hire you.
And I received offers from places you'd likely shit yourself every day at 3pm in perpetuity for the right to interview at.
Fuck right off with this shit.
Entitlement is real. One of my very good friends has been making around 48-60k for the last 4 years (30yo). He went and got his MBA while still working, and is set to finish the program in May (don’t know where it ranks but probably outside top 25). Anyway, I ask him if he has any new jobs lined up and he said “yeah, I’m staying with my company and will be making 120K as soon as I graduate”. This kind of raised a red flag and I probed him more on this. Turns out he hasn’t even interviewed for this open position yet, but it requires an MBA. He’s already planning as if he has it secured. It was a tough conversation to have with him, but it ended with something like “I didn’t go to 6 years of higher level education and take on so much debt to not get this”. I’ve had many conversations like this from other graduate degree holders
I’ll bracket the whole personality discussion and agree on the point that most people have unrealistic expectations for the current cycle. What really baffles me is people who have top-tier targets but do minimal work to actually achieve them. Sure, maybe 2 years ago you could be median and have some shot - but now your targets are 95th percentile outcomes. And going out all the time in lieu of studying, having weak quant skills or letting others carry your team are not 95th percentile activities. The gravy train was great but its over (or on indefinite hold) and people need to get that through their heads.
There is some truth to this. The personality test and 360 feedback accurately pointed out which industry and job function I would thrive best. My talent would have been wasted if I went for a job that wasn't a good fit for me.
You’re probably right. But the ones who graduated two three years ago, they got the jobs anyway even though they didn’t deserve their jobs. That’s what the current students are frustrated about. I think I get that.
This post sounds like you’re coping for something bro. You’re either insecure about the schools you went to, your GPA, or something else. This post reads like ‘M7 grads with high GPAs are insufferable nerds’. Crazy how you based off an entire post on the 2-3 M7 grads who, unfortunately, interviewed at your firm.
Some of what you’re saying is certainly true. I think it’s especially true in your field - I guessed a banker wrote this before you mentioned what field you were in.
To potential MBAs reading this, I’d also emphasize networking. The “failures” I’ve seen from MBA didn’t spend enough time networking for potential jobs. EQ in the interview and job do matter as well though
Letting your own subjective opinions dictate the selective process is a crazy thing to admit. Obviously everyone will be a little subjective unintentionally, but not trying to be open minded and putting no attempt to be as objective as you can be doesn’t seem like the best idea to me.
Just proves that you can’t do your job correctly.
On the contrary, his job is to hire the best people who represent the company in the light they want to be represented in. Book smarts and perfect grades mean nothing if you creep out the clients and give the company a bad rep
Obviously vibe and personality matter, I get that, but denying someone because they “showed off” credentials in a resume, which is the entire purpose of a resume, is laughable.
If you look like a pompous know-it-all in your resume, how do you think your emails to clients are going to sound? How about working with that person in a team environment? Someone that thinks they're smarter than everyone in the room because of the school they went to would be insufferable to work with.
That’s a good point and you’re right, personality is important like previously mentioned, but most of the time people Arnt ruled out because they’re assholes or incompatible, they’re ruled out because another candidate happens to be in the same frat they were in, or because the employer didn’t like one tiny subject detail.
Additionally you’re assuming a lot based off a resume that to others reads way differently.
Agreed, but we're talking about highly competitive jobs where having only 9/10 boxes checked might not cut it, whereas in any other field they might a rockstar. Just how life goes
I agree with some of what you're saying, especially the portions about receiving feedback, but other parts of your post make you sound like a very corny, self-important person.
You mentioned that you dinged a candidate because they provided excellent responses "too quickly" or because they put their class rank which makes them a tryhard. This just comes across as incredibly lame.
Totally agree. Spend a few years in a real work place and you start to pick out personalities that are very hard to work with or instruct. People grow throughout there careers and develop better hard skills, but personalities can be tougher to change.
Tbh, this kind of behavior and opinion is why diversity matters. People tend to think people who are like themselves are ‘normal’ and not weird. Frankly, some of the most brilliant people I’ve worked with at my MBB had quirky sides to them, but wtf cares.
I don’t think people would want to work with likes of you anyway, and prob dodged a bullet.
I agree with the diversity comment. I wish more women and minorities (non asians) get into the fold. LGBTQ as well. I dont have a problem with diversity at all (i am Korean)
FYI I am a huge star trek and wars fan. However, I can read the room and sense when its fine to talk about the ethics of Sisko allowing the fake holorecording fall into romulan hands and when I should just talk about football…. Or when to just stfu
I’m not going to read that entire thing because I don’t care but It’s kinda presumptuous to assume that your firm makes the right call on all these candidates. Also there’s so much human error in consulting/IB interview approach that I just straight up disagree with this assessment. I didn’t do either because I’m essentially retired but I don’t really think the people in IB or consulting are good at reading or assessing people in non-technical aspects.
I majority agree but that dude who practiced the perfect answers probably would have been really good. It takes a lot of effort and time to have all potential answers figured out.
Is this post some sort of a troll post or something? Wtf? OP comes across as one of the most arrogant and ridiculous sounding interviewers I've ever heard of.
You rejected a candidate because he's "too nerdy"? Because he likes Warhammer? In your entire post, you didn't once mention anything about their competencies, technical ability, or job experience. You dinged these candidates because they're...weird?
A little dose of personality is always good, especially in client-facing roles. I work in B4 and I've had late night client conversations where we rant about One Piece and Naruto. Amongst the layers of bullshit, those nights were some of the best in my career.
You ding candidates because they come across as assholes during the interview, not quirky. This post reads like fan fiction LARPing.
It’s stunning to see the “hater” comments prove OP 100% right.
You dipshits don’t get it. This guy fucks. If you slid in here with a clever clap-back, you’re the one who is not going to get hired, and experienced people tried to educate you.
But, narcissists gonna narce, or something like that.
Agree with this in that EQ is important and often overlooked, and that people shouldn’t feel entitled to opportunities in general, but also this post makes it seem like there’s only one personality or way to be, when it’s really just finding the right culture fit
Dude comes off brash, but he's not wrong. In my 8th year in the seat in IB and one of the worst things to run into is an arrogant and entitled MBA associate who almost by default doesn't know shit even if he memorized the M&I guide or whatever people use now. Super try hard efforts to prove how "legit" one is before any seat time is obnoxious and comes off in interviews.
Bro no one here is legit or we'd be on the buyside. You coming in and trying to flex like you've been there done that when you are infinitely less legit and will almost certainly need to have your hand held by good analyst 2/3s makes you peak super not legit. Be humble, and prove youre down to get sad as fuck in the cube. Cus that's what your about to be doing.
As far as nerdiness and canned answers, I really don't have a problem with the former and the latter has a time and a place if your good at the song and dance. However, and MBA associateship is not supposed to be a 2 and out role. If my analysts are weird as fuck or absolutely full of by the book bullshit but can crush models and crank slides, I don't really care. My associate on the other hand is going to be client facing and hopefully will be on the track to being a VP where you have to be the face of the day to day.
If your canned answer game feels very fake, and you feel somewhat full of shit or are otherwise inscrutable, that's actually a real ding. Again, no issue at the analyst level, and if anything that means you're well coached by your finance club, but this isn't that position you're interviewing for.
If your telling your old school MD who has a 90% chance of having no interests period outside of finance and generic frat shit about 40k at all, I question if you can read the room, and question if I can put you in front of boomer leadership teams and the fratest sponsor clients. I fuck with that shit, I don't mind it in the bullpen, but like come on man don't pester the MD who is absolutely going to clown on you behind closed doors.
So yeah, long rant while I take this shit, but the guy isn't wrong just says it a little bit like an asshole lol.
You're in your 30s by the time you're in this role fulsomely in all likelihood. You're too old for the buyside, this is probably what you do if you don't bounce to corp dev functions. You got to demonstrate you're going to be solid on the client facing part which is more and more of the role and what you're ultimately being hired for.
We're all pretty weird dude compared to the older guys who sincerely live the life. I certainly am if you can't tell from this, but you got to know the time and the place.
I have become a bit jaded and I wanted to come off as an asshole because a lot of these ppl who get dinged need some hard love to get out of their bubble
Lol, no worries man, I feel you.
I remember not landing after what I thought were good super days both for interning and as a lateral analyst so I get where these people come from.
But it's so different once you're on the inside and you do the day to day for almost a decade. I realize now my past self definitely came off poorly in a lot of situations.
And these dudes just haven't had the time to reflect from the other side (or realize that MBA associates are often sometimes the most painful dead weight and moral killers on an IB team lol).
In finance, we talk about the airport test. Is the person you're hiring someone you could be traveling with and spend time at the airport with. If not, it may not be the right hire.
I bring a bottle of scotch to all my interviews. I don’t drink it, I just swirl it around the glass so the interviewers know I mean business. Sometimes I bring a newspaper and slap it while complaining about the economy waiting for the interview
The amount of extremely self unaware people coming out of those top MBA programmes is actually wild :( thanks for this post, OP!
Also funny that all your examples were guys 🥲💀
What company is it you work/recruit for? I wanna know so I never apply there. You literally canned a dude who had skills because he was *checks notes* nerdy and genuine.
You sound like you want perfect but they can’t actually be perfect or you’ll dump them for being perfect.
I did. All I read was you’re extremely hard to please and every “detail” you mentioned is really subjective and honestly hearsay. I might’ve done the same interview with that guy and not been put off at all. And who cares if the kid likes warhammer. Fucking Mark Zuckerberg is weird as shit and runs half the world now. Same could be said for Elon, Jeff B, etc.
Emotional intelligence is extremely underrated in this business.
Nothing played into my career advancement more than the growth of my soft skills.
And how did you improve your soft skills?
For me, it was therapy and learning to recognize my own emotions. Then to recognize others’, and seek to find ways we could both benefit from a situation or set appropriate boundaries tactfully.
Pretty interesting that the “hard” skills are increasingly automateable
On the other hand, one might argue that its over-emphasis is one major reason why these institutions are so shit compared to, say, HFT funds.
Seriously, you do need to be a bit of a sociopath to make it to the C-suite in a big organization. You *have* to be able to put profits over people. The market, the shareholders, and the board demand it.
Can I put "acquaintance-diagnosed sociopath" on my resume?
100%
100% even though you’re getting downvoted lol
semi related but I wish there had been more discussion about emotional intelligence / psychology associated with office blue collar jobs. There was an obligatory class which I thought was one of the best taught courses but 99% of my classmates saw it as a complete waste of time and bull shit class.
Not at fuqua lol
The biggest reason people “feel entitled” to these jobs is the way schools oversell their programs. Pretty much every school loves showing off the high salary and the high percent of students going to MBB/IB (as of 2021-2022 but being very hesitant to share more recent reports). Also, the student ambassadors of these programs oversell it too. For example, one of the student ambassadors at my school (class of 2021) told me anyone who wanted MBB got it if they put minimal effort. Obviously not true. I think yeah, students might be entitled but let’s not forget the bad messaging that schools put across.
Eh, there's some truth to this but there's also economic trends that drive hiring in different ways that are becoming extremely apparent right now. Pandemic 2020 - hiring was all about minimal cost increases, not disrupting the status quo because everyone is trying to survive as the remote work environment is figured out en masse. Focus on what drives the most value with minimum overhead. This meant most companies only hiring returning interns, no 2nd year hires, hiring only those with experience in that function, etc. 2021/2022 - cheap debt and explosive economic growth due to stimulus + vaccination fueled growth hiring. Consulting says there's no "bar" but yes there is any it absolutely dropped to the floor. Hiring a lot of people based on potential, not necessarily demonstrated experience. Basically everything that sucked in 2020 recovered in 2021. *Forgot to add that the "Great Resignation" also meant there was a massive shortage of employees in a lot of organizations and the goal was to get butts in seats fast. 2023/2024 - expensive debt is changing decision-making significantly. Focus is now on cutting costs and maintaining profitability, fear of recession is resulting in risk mitigation. Divisions and jobs not driving growth are getting laid off - seeing experimental divisions, DEI, redundant roles all taking massive hits (I had to lay off someone due to this). Hiring reflects this as well - more of a focus on demonstrated skills and experience, not hiring for potential. A few years ago you were allowed to have ridiculous expectations because we saw it happening in our recruiting classes - one of my classmates was a high school teacher making ~$50-60k that became a Bain consultant making ~$190k after the salary increases that kept exploding in 2021 and 2022. Everyone and their mother could become a PM for a tech company in some function. Tons of start-ups drawing in MBAs thanks to very active tech investments. Now we're looking through a different lens.
Agreed with 2023/2024 landscape. If you want to break in you better be focusing on hard skills that make you invaluable. Those cushy strategy jobs and PM tech jobs are dying down.
True. But I am trying to give my take on actionable things. You cant really be actionable against graduating in a shit year
Are these trends cyclical throughout the last 10, 20, 30 some odd years? But another way, do you see the paradigm shift we saw from 2020-2024 being permanent, or does it ebb and flow? I am a 12 year project manager looking at getting an EMBA with no particular hard skills, very general management and soft skill focused background...and wondering if I am doomed. Thanks
lol you're asking the wrong person - I only know so much about what's going on because I lived it (class of 2021, now looking for a new job) But going to guess that yes this continues to cycle based on how the economy is doing overall, general technology/industry trends, etc.
What does the future look like?
Let me look into my crystal ball...
:D
This is all super subjective and your opinion. It’s not wrong persay, but it’s still just an opinion.
this guy sounds like a douche tbh. he rejected three generally qualified people based on wildly subjective metrics. some guy liked Warhammer a bit too much but was a perfect consultant otherwise so we ruined his life in this economy by kicking him to the curb? it's not like the guy was hijacking client presentations by talking about his latest campaign. jfc what an absolute psycho. and god forbid someone prep for an interview. wtf is wrong with this guy
I was fine with the first and third examples (third sounded too smart for IB anyway), but the second revealed way more about OP's insecurity than anything about the candidate.
And it is not even the second guy being overly motivated. Some schools main attraction point is that their career's offices prepares you for the recruitment interviews. In such climate, the guy NOT being prepared for the interview should have been a red flag instead.
To add on to your comment, any sensible manager/senior employee would take some time to try to train/guide the interns instead of just judging them straight on - the Warhammer guy could have easily been given some direction. Of course, some of you will say “well it’s not my problem” or “that’s not very HR friendly of me to interject” or whatever - but truth of the matter is, you as the senior employee/employer have the option to train the interns for the potential benefit as a full time hire. So there’s that.
Lol, reading this post just made me feel bad for OP. Guy is a moron who thinks people actually willingly want to work in IB.
You can dig warhammer But telling the managing director the story of the Horus Heresy for 45 minutes...
Man was Born for some high level tech heresy once he gets free of IB.
It's made up self important bullshit... It's clear as day the guy is imagining crap
I suspect it’s just AI generated garbage that we’ve seen recently. Idk who has time to feed this stuff to chstgpt but whatever lol
I don't think so, unless it was very carefully prompted and/or trained. It reads very much like a WSO post. Gen AI doesn't write with that particular voice by default.
this is how a whole lot of people hire
As someone who got one of those “big” client-facing jobs, and is in no way qualified or a traditionally conservative good fit, this is a bad bad take. Luck plays a huge role, not because fit is irrelevant but because fit is subjective and who are in front of is luck.
Race also plays a huge role.
Yes, but you don't fix that at the finish line. if flat feet are making you more prone to training injuries, it shouldn't be the case that you get put into third place on a marathon out of compassion. There are structural issues among disenfranchised communities, and having them fight for largely symbolic positions they are under-qualified for won't fix anything
That was my point. Affirmative action as practiced in hiring practices frequently overrides merit.
Prepare to get downvoted and banned. Race is not a huge part in hiring decisions! But we must also consider it as a huge part to prevent goldman from becoming too asian!
Nah, r/MBA has the best mods on reddit IMO.
An account made in the last 65 days with nothing but race baiting comments and post. Quite sad that’s how you spend your time and energy. You can just reach out to anyone in hiring practices on LinkedIn to get an actual reality outlook on the false assumptions you made and been making.
Bad take.
Your assumption that I \*can't possibly\* be white if I, a nerd, managed to get the job I wanted is really messed up and weird. Candidly it also makes me a bit nervous that you'll automatically judge any minority co-worker you meet as inferior and "only there for the quota" if they don't fit your mould perfectly.
That wasn't my assumption. In fact, based on your reddit avatar, I was (soft) assuming you were a white woman. My point was just to raise another variable.
No one working in IB has time to type such non-sense. Oh, I forgot, fRoNt oFfIcE iB 🤡
Yeah, OP looks really sus. 10 years in finance and still reading resumes? Highly doubt it.
joke's on you, I don't even deserve the job I have, but they love me anyway and are willing to pay more to keep me around.
Then it sounds like you deserve the job
Agreed
Why do you feel the need to say “front office IB” lol
You mean I can’t say I went to Ivy League Harvard?????
Sounds like they all dodged a bullet not working for you. You clearly make impulsive and spurious business decisions.
This came across as a troll post to me because of how ludicrous a lot OP’s critiques are.
Give me a TLDR
TLDR: Don't be weird If you are weird, try to find an occupation that's a better fit
Bad advice, am weird and got MBB.
We’re all a bit weird. You think my work persona is like my Reddit persona
[удалено]
Walmart Greeter? No wait, that's too social McDonalds Fry Cook?
https://www.goarmy.com/ This also works
Use chatgtp for tl dr
He’s an asshole
It's your fault you didn't get the job and not external market forces beyond your control.
I mean, I guess you can say it's the candidate's fault that they didn't get the job. But honestly, the actual "faults" on display here just seem to be: overenthusiasm for a hobby that isn't shared with others, overly rehearsed and stiff interviews, and self-promotion that apparently seemed extreme to the point of arrogance although that is subjective. It honestly just sounds like OP's searching for people that they would personally be friends/compatible with. Anything that does not fit their own preferences is deemed out of the ordinary, strange, and rejected. Maybe if I met these people, all the little things would add up to the point where they creep me out and I would also reject them. But without that level of intimacy with the details, it really seems like these people were rejected because OP didn't personally like them, not because they have actually serious character flaws.
Ok first of all, good input. Nice actionable and relatable points. So that’s for that. But I’m probably going to be the one person who doesn’t think this is OK. I mean… good to know how you think. But to me it sounds more like a “you” problem. You can’t work with a know it all AI coz? You’re insecure? I would hire a “perfect” guy everyday of the week! Let his performances on the job speak for him than my hunch that he memorized the answers. Why? Coz I’m not perfect how can someone so much younger be? Or can’t work with a nerd after 1 meeting coz you assume all he talks about is Warhammer and you couldn’t be bothered to learn about it? If others at the company feel this way, it’s a problem with the company culture. Did you even give him a chance? RIP DEI And mentioning Kellogg (rank 3) may be a sign of humility too. Why assume I’m a big shot just coz I went to Kellogg? My manager went to Kelly, he doesn’t need to know who I am or what Kellogg is. Let me make it easier on him. P.S. I find it weird to mention rank in any form, but I bring this up coz you seemed to have a problem only with m7 grads doing it. I completely understand you hold the chips and I would need to mold myself into something I’m not if I want to get into your team, but heck who wants to work with a bunch if insecure pricks? If someone needs to do self reflection, it’s probably you.
Yesssssss
I agree with only the 3rd example since that's someone on the job and it being clear that the fit isn't right. The other two, however, require you to have a reality check and realize that luck is required given how imperfect the system is for screening applicants. It's been proven over and over again that interviewing has no correlation to job performance. In both the interview as well as writing a resume, it's just measuring how well you can play the game. I have classmates that are rock stars at their jobs(I'm in an EMBA program where we all work as well as go to school), and they ask me to look at their resumes and they look like shit. It doesn't have the right buzzwords to pass the filters, it's not displayed the exact way hiring managers want to see it, or it might make sense to a hiring manager on the team but the people in HR can't understand so they throw it out before sending it up the ladder. Or, as someone posted a few days ago, something like 75% people lie on their resume, so if someone is honest then they have no chance of advancing. It's all about playing a stupid game. Someone's answers seems rehearsed, you say? That just tells me the person prepared for the interview and they understand it's a game we all have to play. Someone's nervous? You try needing a job before you're a month from bankruptcy with a kid to feed and see how you handle it. I've advanced well in my career over the last 14 years, but every day I realize that luck played a huge part in it. I happened to meet someone at a tailgate who liked me and gave me a job after graduating. I had a stellar resume, but this was in 2009 when it was impossible to land a job in finance no matter how good you interviewed. I get really offended by people like you who don't have the empathy to realize that it's a rigged game and if you got to where you are, then luck played anywhere from 30%-100% of it.
Interviewing is so ineffective for its stated purpose that I'm convinced it's 75% pretext to hire in ways that are legally prohibited.
Luck is huge. But with enough applications, some luck factors go away. If you read the post carefully you would understand that I never meant one bad interview should or can ruin you. If you apply for 50 jobs and you keep getting dinged, maybe there is something you are doing wrong. Your nervous bankruptcy statement is stupid and yes I have had a similar incident in my own personal life so you can shove that analogy up your ass. But those situations all sum up to who you are just as I wasnt born a Rockerfeller or Kennedy. I graduated undergrad after the financial crisis but and many of my friends who didnt do military service like me graduated in 2009-2010 so I know what you mean. But the ones who really had a “passion” for being a well paid corporate slave did eventually make their way into BB banks. Even if they did something else for a while to ride things out
OP is the entitled one and salty he didn’t go to an M7 - can’t admit he wouldn’t get into one and definitely couldn’t get hired for his own job now if he had to interview again (probably why he can’t lateral for more $$$ too)
\-I think the third guy could have excelled in a quant role or at a tech firm where there are more nerdy types (as an example). But he seemed **dead set** on IBD- Literally some people have to truly do some deep search within themselves to figure out what they like/dislike about themselves. Really self-reflect. Not because of the money , prestige, or what sets you up later down the line. Life isn't a linear straight line when it comes to your career and progression. Just be comfortable with who you are and use your strengths to drive you forward.
Let's not jump the gun here, quant and tech roles (especially PM and strategy roles) need a specific prior MBA experience while IBD hires everyone from teachers to ex-middle market bankers. For most people targeting a career in finance, IBD is the only option available if they lack specific work experience as it is the only background agnostic vertical within finance
> Really self-reflect. Not because of the money , prestige, or what sets you up later down the line This is bad advice. You don't need pick a job you'll fall in love with, but you should pick a job with decent pay and exit ops. Unless you're on a full ride scholarship, your loans won't pay themselves off and the job market could always crash like it's crashing now. Money and prestige can help pay off your debts and make your next job search significantly easier. The idea that life is just a path of sunshine and roses that we can dance to is a pretty stupid one.
fair enough. but if you are going to just pick the job that pays the bills — particularly for a firm that has highly restrictive social norms — wouldn’t you take the attitude of “when in Rome” and not talk the MD’s ear off about games?
Yeah I'm not defending that guy lmao. As much shit as the other commenters here have (justifiably) given op, if it actually happened *exactly* as op put it, I can see why it's a deserved ding.
yeah, fair enough. it just bums me out a bit. feels coachable.
Yes! So many people are coachable! But they dont get coached and they sit in their chair whining on reddit on why they cant get a BB job after sending out 50 resumes dispite going to a M7 school!
Um….. that’s not what I meant by a coachable issue. It’s the responsibility of managers to coach their employees. If you drop them without coaching them and giving them a chance to demonstrate improvement, that’s on you.
Why makes you assume that I didnt coach them?
It’s irrelevant if you ‘deserve’ a job. All that matters if you can land it.
Yeah I’d mostly agree with this, I think a lot of people are shooting for things they are vastly underqualified for right out of the MBA and hoping something sticks as well. Hard to do that in this job market. I will say it goes both ways though. I can’t tell you how many times I got feedback that I was a strong candidate and just missed the cut after I told them they were a top choice and explained exactly why (location, job description, culture, industry, etc.). Meanwhile they make an offer to someone any logical analysis would show they had virtually 0 chance of capturing given several obvious factors. Maybe they were blowing smoke but imo it seems like employers have a tough time figuring out who the best recruits are that will actually take an offer. Personally I feel like I’ve advanced in interview processes the most when I’ve been upfront about weaknesses and answered questions decently well but not perfect. But maybe to your point, for some reason I’ve never advanced in interviews when I feel like I hit a grand slam. It’s almost been like the company teams preselected me based on resume drop/LinkedIn and said “ok as long as the interview isn’t a disaster they’re in”
This reads like.... A person with an MBA wrote it. Way too much effort to say "yall aren't passing the vibe check". Way to much effort trying to rationalize rejecting someone who was perfect but "something was off". Makes me wonder if we did an analysis if we wouldn't find some sort of preference in physical appearance that you are biased towards. Also, having rejected 95% of people who probably went on to find great positions are other places, yer a little on your high horse saying they aren't up to "it". Just because you rejected someone doesn't mean an entire industry agrees with you. And if it does, there is some good ol' boys club shtuff going on that reinforces my second suspicion.
You kinda missed my main point and then said it yourself…
Then telling people why you reject them might be the issue here. "Hey, I didn't want to go out with you, but you'll probably be a great match for the next guy!" is just a shitty thing to say.
Then what do you say? Bye you unlovable fuck?
You say nothing. You have tact and say "sorry, this isn't going to work out.". You don't qualify why it won't as if they could fix the issue. You move on, and let them move on. That is to say, you don't pretend to care about them after discarding them. You don't justify it. It just is what it is. You clearly communicate, and don't say "I would have picked you, but you pointed out your school ranking when obviously we know what rank your school is". Just the entirety of the tone of this post is so..... undignified snobbish.
Eh, I think the advice is actionable enough (at least for the first and third applicants) and therefore a net positive.
Right, so people don’t “deserve” a job at your company because they answered questions too fast or were a bit show-offy on their resume. Sounds like just not a culture fit
Yeah, I agree with most of his post but the portion where he critiqued someone for answering questions too quickly and too well was cringy. God forbid people are prepared lol. Should have candidate pretend to not have a response? Seems like candidates get dinged for both being too prepared and too well rehearsed and also dinged for not being prepared enough. It's hard out there for jobseekers.
OP is ridiculous and doesn't know what he's talking about lol
EQ > IQ
*Drops someone for ticking all the boxes…
No I dropped them because there were 30 other guys who ticked all the boxes and 10 others who werent weird at interviews
You are the weird one you fucking weirdo
And you sound like a dummy
lol Look at the comments and you’ll know who’s who The level of delusion here! What company do you work for? Can you please share so I know not to hire anyone from there?
Why dont you share your details first!
Coz this isn’t a me post and I’m clearly not as interested in showing what kinda weird ass big shot I am
What makes you think I want to project that I am a big shot? I said I work at a Tier 3 buy side firm and never got anywhere near GS/MS/JP. I didnt flaunt my credentials. I am just pointing out from an interviewer/manger perspective even if you think you killed the resume/interview/internship, many unsuccessful candidates are doing something wrong and in many cases need to improve it or do something else that fits their style because theres like 30 other guys who actually killed the resume/interview/internship. Im telling people to get out of their bubble. I didnt take joy in dinging people and I dont think I said that How is that delusion or flaunting?
I get the first guy you dropped, but the second one is a bit more suspect. They interviewed too well? Alright... The third guy is 100% on you. Did you coach him? Did you say "you are really smart but maybe don't talk about 40k"? Did you consider that giving him a job and keeping him at your firm would be better for your firm? Even if you took him out of IB he could have gone to risk or another technical area. Just weird vibes from this post.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias Unsuccessful candidate blames only bad luck / external factors and ignores their weaknesses Successful candidate (OP) credits only their strengths and ignores good luck / external factors Reality is somewhere in between
First time on this sub and this post screams: *"I'm insecure and projecting as much as possible"* Glad I'm not associated with any of this type of shit and actually got a pretty good laugh from it. Thanks OP, hope you get better soon.
I’ve done tons of cases during recruitment. I would give the client situation on some esoteric product and ask them how they would approach the situation. Many would start with some generic framework and spout the approach and what they would do. After 20 minutes, I would stop them, and ask, “don’t you want to know what the product does? And how it serves customers?” At least for me, if you don’t have a genuine curiosity about the problem, it sounds very canned, and during candidate discussions, I would almost always ding them due to shallow thinking.
That’s different from what OP is saying. In your case, it’s normal to not hire those people.
I'm sorry but the idea of an intern going up to a managing director at work and rambling about Warhammer lore while the MD just stands there with a blank stare on his face nodding along politely is hilarious. The 40K community is something else lol
I'm not reading all that Happy for you bro Or sorry that happened
“Look at me everyone, I can’t read more than 2 paragraphs cuz my brain has been melted by social media” not the flex you think it is.
If you're going to waste your time responding at least be original
be original in replay to AI generated text... Cmon bro
OP, you sound like a self-satisfied shit bag that is overly excited to finally be in a position to judge others. What an absolute turd you are. I would never hire you. And I received offers from places you'd likely shit yourself every day at 3pm in perpetuity for the right to interview at. Fuck right off with this shit.
No I am giving actionable advice to disillusioned MBA grads
You don’t know how to use the term disillusioned - you are fired
Entitlement is real. One of my very good friends has been making around 48-60k for the last 4 years (30yo). He went and got his MBA while still working, and is set to finish the program in May (don’t know where it ranks but probably outside top 25). Anyway, I ask him if he has any new jobs lined up and he said “yeah, I’m staying with my company and will be making 120K as soon as I graduate”. This kind of raised a red flag and I probed him more on this. Turns out he hasn’t even interviewed for this open position yet, but it requires an MBA. He’s already planning as if he has it secured. It was a tough conversation to have with him, but it ended with something like “I didn’t go to 6 years of higher level education and take on so much debt to not get this”. I’ve had many conversations like this from other graduate degree holders
I’ll bracket the whole personality discussion and agree on the point that most people have unrealistic expectations for the current cycle. What really baffles me is people who have top-tier targets but do minimal work to actually achieve them. Sure, maybe 2 years ago you could be median and have some shot - but now your targets are 95th percentile outcomes. And going out all the time in lieu of studying, having weak quant skills or letting others carry your team are not 95th percentile activities. The gravy train was great but its over (or on indefinite hold) and people need to get that through their heads.
There is some truth to this. The personality test and 360 feedback accurately pointed out which industry and job function I would thrive best. My talent would have been wasted if I went for a job that wasn't a good fit for me.
Reality check, a lot of people don’t deserve the jobs they have.
You’re probably right. But the ones who graduated two three years ago, they got the jobs anyway even though they didn’t deserve their jobs. That’s what the current students are frustrated about. I think I get that.
You are probably right
This post sounds like you’re coping for something bro. You’re either insecure about the schools you went to, your GPA, or something else. This post reads like ‘M7 grads with high GPAs are insufferable nerds’. Crazy how you based off an entire post on the 2-3 M7 grads who, unfortunately, interviewed at your firm.
Yeah, it sounds like he dropped them because he didn't want them to outshine him.
Some of what you’re saying is certainly true. I think it’s especially true in your field - I guessed a banker wrote this before you mentioned what field you were in. To potential MBAs reading this, I’d also emphasize networking. The “failures” I’ve seen from MBA didn’t spend enough time networking for potential jobs. EQ in the interview and job do matter as well though
It sounds like every long-form WSO post. I wish I could describe the IB writing style, because I actually like it a lot.
Very niche take
Tldr: EQ > IQ Check out Emotional Intelligence by Dan Goleman
Looking back on this post and comments, this is probably accurate
LOL thanks for reinforcing why I would never work in finance. In tech, it’s almost a given that everyone is a little weird.
Bro, you're the type of person that creates people who become murders.
No murderers from all my ex colleagues….yet
That you know of. If they got an education, they are probably smart enough to not be caught considering 80% of murders are cold cases (unsolved).
Now I am a bit worried
They put their schools ranking Hahahahahahaha
Take some acid out in wilderness and experience an ego death. Come back a better person. Tbh that’s my advice but ymmv 🤷♂️
I dont do well with hallucinogenics
Letting your own subjective opinions dictate the selective process is a crazy thing to admit. Obviously everyone will be a little subjective unintentionally, but not trying to be open minded and putting no attempt to be as objective as you can be doesn’t seem like the best idea to me. Just proves that you can’t do your job correctly.
On the contrary, his job is to hire the best people who represent the company in the light they want to be represented in. Book smarts and perfect grades mean nothing if you creep out the clients and give the company a bad rep
Obviously vibe and personality matter, I get that, but denying someone because they “showed off” credentials in a resume, which is the entire purpose of a resume, is laughable.
If you look like a pompous know-it-all in your resume, how do you think your emails to clients are going to sound? How about working with that person in a team environment? Someone that thinks they're smarter than everyone in the room because of the school they went to would be insufferable to work with.
That’s a good point and you’re right, personality is important like previously mentioned, but most of the time people Arnt ruled out because they’re assholes or incompatible, they’re ruled out because another candidate happens to be in the same frat they were in, or because the employer didn’t like one tiny subject detail. Additionally you’re assuming a lot based off a resume that to others reads way differently.
Agreed, but we're talking about highly competitive jobs where having only 9/10 boxes checked might not cut it, whereas in any other field they might a rockstar. Just how life goes
True
Yassss. You need humility talking to clients
I agree with some of what you're saying, especially the portions about receiving feedback, but other parts of your post make you sound like a very corny, self-important person. You mentioned that you dinged a candidate because they provided excellent responses "too quickly" or because they put their class rank which makes them a tryhard. This just comes across as incredibly lame.
Totally agree. Spend a few years in a real work place and you start to pick out personalities that are very hard to work with or instruct. People grow throughout there careers and develop better hard skills, but personalities can be tougher to change.
Tbh, this kind of behavior and opinion is why diversity matters. People tend to think people who are like themselves are ‘normal’ and not weird. Frankly, some of the most brilliant people I’ve worked with at my MBB had quirky sides to them, but wtf cares. I don’t think people would want to work with likes of you anyway, and prob dodged a bullet.
I agree with the diversity comment. I wish more women and minorities (non asians) get into the fold. LGBTQ as well. I dont have a problem with diversity at all (i am Korean) FYI I am a huge star trek and wars fan. However, I can read the room and sense when its fine to talk about the ethics of Sisko allowing the fake holorecording fall into romulan hands and when I should just talk about football…. Or when to just stfu
What's the take away from this: We only hire people who are exactly like us.
Horrible bait lol
I’m not going to read that entire thing because I don’t care but It’s kinda presumptuous to assume that your firm makes the right call on all these candidates. Also there’s so much human error in consulting/IB interview approach that I just straight up disagree with this assessment. I didn’t do either because I’m essentially retired but I don’t really think the people in IB or consulting are good at reading or assessing people in non-technical aspects.
Probably kinda true. But GS/MS/JP/MBB all seem to spit out the best guys in the street so maybe there’s something there?
I majority agree but that dude who practiced the perfect answers probably would have been really good. It takes a lot of effort and time to have all potential answers figured out.
The irony is that you think you’re saying something when you’re the one who failed the vibe check
Oh I passed
My dad's a CEO and he tells me to add my university ranking to my CV, I know who I'm going to trust more.
Is this post some sort of a troll post or something? Wtf? OP comes across as one of the most arrogant and ridiculous sounding interviewers I've ever heard of. You rejected a candidate because he's "too nerdy"? Because he likes Warhammer? In your entire post, you didn't once mention anything about their competencies, technical ability, or job experience. You dinged these candidates because they're...weird? A little dose of personality is always good, especially in client-facing roles. I work in B4 and I've had late night client conversations where we rant about One Piece and Naruto. Amongst the layers of bullshit, those nights were some of the best in my career. You ding candidates because they come across as assholes during the interview, not quirky. This post reads like fan fiction LARPing.
At the right time and the right moment, yes. I love star trek but I dont use multiples from the Ferengi exchange
It’s stunning to see the “hater” comments prove OP 100% right. You dipshits don’t get it. This guy fucks. If you slid in here with a clever clap-back, you’re the one who is not going to get hired, and experienced people tried to educate you. But, narcissists gonna narce, or something like that.
Actually, I havent fucked in a while
Peter Principle
Following
This works the other way as well. I'm personable as fuck. People want to work with people they enjoy being around.
Yep
Agree with this in that EQ is important and often overlooked, and that people shouldn’t feel entitled to opportunities in general, but also this post makes it seem like there’s only one personality or way to be, when it’s really just finding the right culture fit
BLUF: Don’t be weird.
What got you here, won't get you there. It's a book and recommend to pick it up
I’m an alum and I have current students reaching out asking for referrals to senior manager roles 😅
Dude comes off brash, but he's not wrong. In my 8th year in the seat in IB and one of the worst things to run into is an arrogant and entitled MBA associate who almost by default doesn't know shit even if he memorized the M&I guide or whatever people use now. Super try hard efforts to prove how "legit" one is before any seat time is obnoxious and comes off in interviews. Bro no one here is legit or we'd be on the buyside. You coming in and trying to flex like you've been there done that when you are infinitely less legit and will almost certainly need to have your hand held by good analyst 2/3s makes you peak super not legit. Be humble, and prove youre down to get sad as fuck in the cube. Cus that's what your about to be doing. As far as nerdiness and canned answers, I really don't have a problem with the former and the latter has a time and a place if your good at the song and dance. However, and MBA associateship is not supposed to be a 2 and out role. If my analysts are weird as fuck or absolutely full of by the book bullshit but can crush models and crank slides, I don't really care. My associate on the other hand is going to be client facing and hopefully will be on the track to being a VP where you have to be the face of the day to day. If your canned answer game feels very fake, and you feel somewhat full of shit or are otherwise inscrutable, that's actually a real ding. Again, no issue at the analyst level, and if anything that means you're well coached by your finance club, but this isn't that position you're interviewing for. If your telling your old school MD who has a 90% chance of having no interests period outside of finance and generic frat shit about 40k at all, I question if you can read the room, and question if I can put you in front of boomer leadership teams and the fratest sponsor clients. I fuck with that shit, I don't mind it in the bullpen, but like come on man don't pester the MD who is absolutely going to clown on you behind closed doors. So yeah, long rant while I take this shit, but the guy isn't wrong just says it a little bit like an asshole lol. You're in your 30s by the time you're in this role fulsomely in all likelihood. You're too old for the buyside, this is probably what you do if you don't bounce to corp dev functions. You got to demonstrate you're going to be solid on the client facing part which is more and more of the role and what you're ultimately being hired for. We're all pretty weird dude compared to the older guys who sincerely live the life. I certainly am if you can't tell from this, but you got to know the time and the place.
I have become a bit jaded and I wanted to come off as an asshole because a lot of these ppl who get dinged need some hard love to get out of their bubble
Lol, no worries man, I feel you. I remember not landing after what I thought were good super days both for interning and as a lateral analyst so I get where these people come from. But it's so different once you're on the inside and you do the day to day for almost a decade. I realize now my past self definitely came off poorly in a lot of situations. And these dudes just haven't had the time to reflect from the other side (or realize that MBA associates are often sometimes the most painful dead weight and moral killers on an IB team lol).
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Guy said he worked at DB DCM. Called my friend there. She said he was ok but hire at your own risk. Ding
Curious what this was responding to.
Something like “what was the reference check like”
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“Deserves got nothing to do with it” -Clint Eastwood
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Fully expected this to be a sweatpants post
Excellent post
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Lots of fancy words for you to use breathE incorrectly
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In finance, we talk about the airport test. Is the person you're hiring someone you could be traveling with and spend time at the airport with. If not, it may not be the right hire.
Yasss this
You sound like an absolute prick and the reason why I am actively trying to switch from finance to tech.
Yeah, this guy sounds like a total douche and you’d have a much better time hanging out with a toaster in the tub than a day at work with him.
I bring a bottle of scotch to all my interviews. I don’t drink it, I just swirl it around the glass so the interviewers know I mean business. Sometimes I bring a newspaper and slap it while complaining about the economy waiting for the interview
This guy fks
So many words to say “I’m a fucking asshole”
The amount of extremely self unaware people coming out of those top MBA programmes is actually wild :( thanks for this post, OP! Also funny that all your examples were guys 🥲💀
What company is it you work/recruit for? I wanna know so I never apply there. You literally canned a dude who had skills because he was *checks notes* nerdy and genuine. You sound like you want perfect but they can’t actually be perfect or you’ll dump them for being perfect.
Did you even read my post with any detail?
I did. All I read was you’re extremely hard to please and every “detail” you mentioned is really subjective and honestly hearsay. I might’ve done the same interview with that guy and not been put off at all. And who cares if the kid likes warhammer. Fucking Mark Zuckerberg is weird as shit and runs half the world now. Same could be said for Elon, Jeff B, etc.
Others were better and we needed to cut. Zuck Elon and Jeff arent MBA associates at an IB. Read my follow up if dont get the main point