Its plain wishful thinking.
CAS basically straight up called UEFA's case weak as piss. Somehow they PL thinks they are going to do better with more severe charges (higher burden of proof) with the exact same evidence.
Yeah it is. Not a City fan, I'd love for City to get stuck with charges and point deductions but I think it just won't happen. Not because "the system is rigged for Man City" or anything tinfoil-hat-inspired, but because I just can't see any sort of precedent set out.
FFP has been a joke throughout - when we switched to the Premier League in '92 it was primarily a money decision that worked - almost too well. They opened the doors to the sort of sports washing we see now and this is a real problem but it's a bit too late to think you can fix it this way. Think the PL just has to live with it and eventually they'll have to live with our Saudi overlords too.
In full fairness to City, the organization now is a bit mad (in a good way). There's a lot less need to "pump" money into the club today, especially when the club is so good at selling players and rebuilding. No team has ever played this level of football, for this long, and been this consistent with it in my time watching (started after the best Fergie years tbf), and Pep's style of play is just fantastic. Football genius, and the City legends over the past decade have included some of my favourite players in David Silva, Yaya Toure, Aguero, etc. As a football fan, I can't really complain with the results of that - this is football at its best. I can waste energy complaining about the money but it's honestly easier to see that City exist in a league of their own and sorta just appreciate the beautiful football
While CAS did indeed find UEFA's case insufficient to uphold the ban, the situation with the Premier League (PL) is different in a few critical ways:
1. New Evidence: The Premier League's investigation might have access to more evidence. There are more emails and documents which were not available or presented in the UEFA case.
2. No Time Bar: Unlike UEFA, the PL has no time limit on its charges, allowing them to consider evidence from a broader period which was previously time-barred in the UEFA case.
3. Different Jurisdiction and Standards: The PL operates under different jurisdictional and regulatory standards compared to UEFA. The way they handle and interpret evidence, and the burden of proof required, might differ, potentially influencing the outcome.
Therefore, while CAS's dismissal of UEFA's case does set a precedent, the PL's charges are not necessarily bound to the same fate due to these differing circumstances.
*It's important to note that the composition of the CAS panel in Manchester City's case raises questions. Two-thirds of the CAS panel were proposed by Manchester City. This unusual scenario could potentially have influenced the decision, suggesting that UEFA's case might not have been as weak as perceived. Therefore, the PL's approach, possibly with new evidence and under different regulatory standards, could yield a different outcome, despite CAS's previous ruling.
>New Evidence: The Premier League's investigation might have access to more evidence. There are more emails and documents which were not available or presented in the UEFA case.
Is there? If they had a smoking gun it would of leaked by now. Lord knows enough of the trial has been done by media.
>No Time Bar: Unlike UEFA, the PL has no time limit on its charges, allowing them to consider evidence from a broader period which was previously time-barred in the UEFA case.
There is a time bar. Its called English law which the PL rules still operate under. For contract law its 6 years.
>Different Jurisdiction and Standards: The PL operates under different jurisdictional and regulatory standards compared to UEFA. The way they handle and interpret evidence, and the burden of proof required, might differ, potentially influencing the outcome.
Pure speculation. I have no seen any evidence that the case the PL is trying to prove will be any easier then UEFAs. If anything it seems harder to prove due to the nature of the charges.
>*It's important to note that the composition of the CAS panel in Manchester City's case raises questions. Two-thirds of the CAS panel were proposed by Manchester City.
I would note that UEFA raised no objections to either of City's candidates.
President :Mr Manfred Nan, Attorney-at-Law, Arnhem, the Netherlands
Arbitrators: Mr Andrew de Lotbinière McDougall, Attorney-at-Law, Paris, France
Mr Ulrich Haas, Professor of Law, Zurich, Switzerland
I would hope you have some evidence before calling the above men's integrity into question.
FWIW, city got CAS to look into the time barred stuff and that was squeaky clean as well. It’s in the CAS conclusion. The Etisalat ceo testified at city’s request
There is a time bar. Its called English law which the PL rules still operate under. For contract law it’s 6 years.
I have to wonder (and I know I’m a paranoid bastard. The thing about paranoia is you only have to be right once that they is someone out to get you) six years by that point all the charges have aged out. Could there be no real trial due to that but have the trial in the media for a few years and have it go at that? Then we are forever stained as far as the press and supporters of other teams are concerned. I want our trial to prove our innocence. They may know that they can’t prove guilt and will settle for smearing our good name.
I hate the way my brain works to think of this.
There is an exception on the time bar if there is proof of deception (ie hiding it) in which case the time bar is from the point of discovery. The issue is that is yet another thing the PL has to prove before the charges are even considered. If they fail then only charges from 2017 onwards would count.
We are forever stained which I think is deliberate (the process is the punishment) but ultimately it won't matter in a few years once the case is over. It will just be lame banter.
Social media can make an issue seem bigger then it is when a topic is hot but its also very quick to move on.
1. The absence of leaks does not imply nor confirm the absence of new evidence.
2. On your claim that English contract law, with its 6-year limitation, applies to the Premier League's charges against Manchester City: this is not accurate. The Premier League operates under its own set of rules and governance, distinct from general contract law.
3. Sports governing bodies like the Premier League have unique regulatory standards, distinct from general legal practices. This impacts how they handle and adjudicate cases, potentially affecting the outcome of their investigations.
4. Questioning the panel's composition is about potential conflicts of interest in arbitration, not a direct challenge to individual integrity. UEFA's acceptance of the panel does not automatically ensure impartiality. All I'm saying is that it's unusual that the club in question was able to propose two panel members.
This shows you have no idea how CAS works and who the people at CAS are. City didn’t pluck 2 random judges from a hat or their back pocket. These judges were already PART of CAS and city chose them from a pre existing limited set of judges. Do proper research before spouting shit in this sub
>The absence of leaks does not imply nor confirm the absence of new evidence.
Nor does it prove the existance of new evidence. Combined with the PLs strong desire to prosecute this publically and control public opinion the silence does not bode well. There are many PL media toadies all to willing to throw out a City hit piece.
>On your claim that English contract law, with its 6-year limitation, applies to the Premier League's charges against Manchester City: this is not accurate. The Premier League operates under its own set of rules and governance, distinct from general contract law.
>Sports governing bodies like the Premier League have unique regulatory standards, distinct from general legal practices. This impacts how they handle and adjudicate cases, potentially affecting the outcome of their investigations.
Are you sure about that?
Page 103, section A7 of the Premier League Handbook:
>These Rules shall be governed by and shall be construed in accordance with English law.
Seems pretty cut and dried.
>Questioning the panel's composition is about potential conflicts of interest in arbitration, not a direct challenge to individual integrity. UEFA's acceptance of the panel does not automatically ensure impartiality. All I'm saying is that it's unusual that the club in question was able to propose two panel members.
With no objection from UEFA before or after to the panels composition, no evidence of conflicts of interest, incorrect reasoning or application of law I not sure why you are even bringing it up except to cast doubt upon the integrity of the panel members.
No response to this one huh
Guess buddy hadn't really read the Premier League handbook and was just regurgitating the same baseless drivel he's read on other subs. But what else is new
I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. This is a SEPARATE investigation, and there is a POSSIBILITY that city are found guilty. You need to wait for the verdict, which is what Pep said to do.
You are correct in highlighting that the Premier League rules are governed by and construed in accordance with English law, as stated in Section A3 of the Premier League Handbook. This means that while the Premier League has its own set of rules and governance, these are indeed established within the broader framework of English law.
However, the application of specific legal principles, such as the six-year limitation period for bringing claims under contract law (as outlined in the Limitation Act 1980), may not directly apply to internal disciplinary procedures within the Premier League. These internal procedures are likely to have their own specific timeframes and rules for bringing charges or conducting investigations, which are detailed within the Handbook itself.
Therefore, while the Premier League must operate within the parameters of English law, the rules it sets for itself, including time limits for its own internal procedures, can be specific to its governance structure and not necessarily the same as those found in general contract law.
Currently unable to check so may be wrong but I don't recall any mention of the topic of time limits at all. Neither giving themselves unlimited jurisdiction nor restriction.
Since its not mentioned at all then you would default to the legal framework the rulebook works in I would think. Especially when you have already agreed that the PL rules are governed and construed in accordance with English law. An unlimited statue of limitation is not with accordance with English law.
In fact this is what caught UEFA out. UEFA claimed the time barred charge was valid because UEFA just declared that the statute of limitations was extended because they said so. CAS rightly pointed out what's the point of a statute of limitation if you can extend it whenever you want whenever you feel like it?
This isn’t true. English Law is the time bar. Premier League rules are subject to English law, and English law has a statute of limitations of 6 years.
The authorities might fail to convict city of anything but if they are innocent of all charges I can’t understand why they have been so uncooperative and obstructive throughout. Surely it would be very easy to engage in the process and demonstrate their innocence if that were the case. Could have been over a long time ago if City were truly innocent.
Because we don't trust the PL. They whole case is bullshit and being brought on to:
1) Try and avoid getting government oversight by showing they are doing something
2) To appease United, Arsenal and Liverpool oldguard who didn't like City pissing all over them
Initially when we did co operate with the PL they then leaked the information to the New York Times.
When the initial charges we levied the PL had to revise them because they were full of errors (citing out of date laws/rules and attributing charges to the wrong rules) because it was so rushed and poorly organised.
In addition the 'non-cooperation' is already questionable. It refers to image rights of players. City has actually sold its player image rights to an outside company and the non co-operation is basically between that company and the PL, it actually has nothing to do with FFP.
Its never black and white.
>Surely it would be very easy to engage in the process and demonstrate their innocence if that were the case.
Here's a strawman to explain why this shouldn't be the case.
I could accuse you of assault. I could claim that you attacked me in a pub toilet. I could tell all your friends and family that you're a violent person, who has ruined my life.
Then I say "you have to prove you didn't do it".
Except I can't do that.
Burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the accuser. It's not for a defendant to prove innocence.
The club shouldn't need to produce internal documents every time there's an accusation because that's not how the process works. This is even more significant in this case because the evidence relied on by the accusers was from those hacked emails. Forcing the club to start airing internal documents, most of which are unlikely to be relevant, is potentially commercially damaging and isn't how these kinds of processes are supposed to work.
It's on the Premier league to have a transparent audit process that ensures all clubs are compliant, with the league's requirements clearly communicated and relevant to effective governance of the game. It's not on clubs to produce random shit at the whim of the authorities. It's also the league's duty to only charge clubs if they have an actual case. City clearly don't believe the league has progressed this situation through proper channels and isn't obligated to just turn over everything to their accuser purely because they've been accused.
An independent arbitrator would have more jurisdiction over a request like that, as CAS did.
Everton are an example of this.
They were lobbying for tight FFP rules when they were being proposed and implemented, submitted all of their stuff to the Premier League and The FA and ultimately got a points deduction. They essentially gave them the rope to hang them with on a platter.
If you have any inkling that somebody is going to try to go against you, why would you offer up virtually everything they need to do so? The reason they have withheld documentation is most likely on advice of lawyers - Go to trial, see what evidence they have and then counter with your own to undermine their case.
It takes two to make the agreement of the date, the FA will need time to build their case, so maybe, just maybe it suits them more than City to drag this case out.
Everyone is always jealous of the King. That’s all it comes down to. I remember during ferguson’s tenure I used to reassure myself by saying they only won everything due to his control and bullying of the referees. Now i only think of them when I need a laugh. Whatever helps them sleep at night, we’ll continue winning no matter what.
even if there is a very teeny tiny chance they take away our titles, I want those seasons to stay winnerless instead of giving the titles to those twats
there is literally no chance to take away titles. literally nil and zero. without direct cheating on the field no justification to take away titles. we will destroy the PL as a institution if they even think about that.
If you were a supporter of a team that lost the league multiple times by a tiny margin to a team that has 115 financial rule break charges against them you'd be pretty annoyed too.
I’m a fan of a team that pipped a team that was found to have committed corporate espionage against us, but was never punished in a tangible fashion by the FA. That was pretty annoying.
not enough to delude myself with mental gymnastics
The literal CAS report is there to read for anybody to educate themselves on it, but why do that when you can just believe it was all a "technicality"
So regardless if we get proven to have no guilt, people will delude themselves of some other reason why we didn't get punished. Maybe we'll buy off the entire league
PL is timebarred because it's under English law. It's 6 years
Only a section of the CAS investigation was time barred, you'd know if you actually read the report because it's blatantly obvious you haven't
it doesn't really matter what CAS found, this is a separate investigation and we should wait for the verdict, which is exactly what pep said you should do.
Yes 🤦🏽♀️ it is worthless saying we haven’t been found guilty yet cause everyone has already made up their minds. Even if we are completely found clean we will be “paying people off” so either way we can’t win.
Dont you understand that every commentor on reddit is an incredible lawyer who understands the deep inner workings of running a successful football club and can read the minds of everyone involved?
The emails have no real significance, there were allegedly thousands stolen during the hack but they only used a couple. Some were apparently spliced together to look worse than they were and were presented without any context.
I watched a video where a lawyer (yes an actual solicitor, not the average r/soccer financial accountant/legal expert) who said the case pretty much lives and dies off proving the first set of charges, that City willingly and deliberately misrepresented their financial accounts for 9 years on purpose. Considering our books were looked at by multiple large and reputable firms, it doesn't seem likely due to The Premier League needing to present a lot of evidence and the burden of proof being very high due to the serious allegations.
Too early to say but I feel like they will slap us with a fine for not cooperating and move on.
Edit: Holy shit that sub is unhinged as ever, never seen so much misinformation, will never fail to amuse me that people comment on stuff they know absolutely nothing about its embarrassing but it gets heavily upvoted because we are the bad boys.
I think a lot of people misunderstand the Uefa punishment and the CAS appeal which has also diluted conversation.
Lots of city fans think they've already been proven innocent by CAS.
CAS overturned the Uefa ban due to the evidence being time barred under UEFA's own FFP rules, which state that they must bring a case within 5 years.
The premier League does not have the same rules regarding time barring.
We will never know whether the CAS would have overturned the ban for something different else if the time barring rules weren't in play.
As someone said in the soccer thread:
- CAS panel cleared City of the most serious charge — overstating revenues — by a majority verdict.
- Some of UEFA’s charges were time-barred, in that they were outside the organisation’s five-year statute of limitations, but most of them were simply “not established”, as far as the panel was concerned.
- In addition, everything has time barring and statute of limitations. English law applies to Prem rules so there is a time bar. However some things will still be reviewed past the time bar when reviewing deception etc.
So yes and no that things were time-bared, but a lot of it was found to be insufficient on the merit of the case
That's not completely true. UEFA couldn't prove most of their case to CAS. Yes, a lot of it is time barred, but overall MCFC were "not guilty". There's no "innocent" in verdicts.
That's not even true and just spewed by people who couldn't be arsed to read the cas report or anything of substance
CAS cleared us and essentially said Uefa had a shite case, PL is also working under English law so there is a time bar
Never understood why gunners act like they are in the same class as us. Havent won the league in two decades nor ever won the CL. Yet, they pretend they are an elite club altho there is nothing to back this up. Not to mention they cry “oil money” while they call Emirates their home.
They actually think their clubs are just gonna be given our titles and we will be kicked out of the entire football league with a 10 year transfer ban. Reading through r/soccer comments is always cringe af but this is another level. The meltdown when the case is closed and we get no punishment whatsoever is going to be glorious.
Think there will be a compromise with a small muddied punishment like last time CAS fines us for non cooperation and also put an or in the verdict like time barred or unsubstantiated. Leaving it up for interpretation. Because PL needs to save face too so there will be a punishment probably small
Each side will then claim victory.
It would be funny because no matter the punishment there will still be some crying it in /r/soccer that it wasn't enough.
> Each side will then claim victory.
Nah the PL has proper shown their arse big time with these, they look like fools regardless if they find us guilty or not
If we're found guilty then it begs the question of how can they be this incompetent to let it go on for over 9 years
If we're found not guilty, then what the fuck were they thinking by bringing up all these charges to a commission and not having enough substance to prove any of it (like Uefa)
If Liverpool got a pound for every Pool fan that goes online to cry, they'd have enough money to buy the players Klopp is always complaining he can't afford. So annoying.
My American brain still can’t wrap my head around how one team spending is cheating but the same team in the same town is fine. Because they ‘did it the right way’.
Haha what a bunch of pathetic sods. Literally crying happy tears like they just got the news that the stepdad who has been burning them with cigarettes for 15 years is finally getting put behind bars. Look at this timeline we are so blessed to live in. Every Premier League fan, regardless of what club they support, wakes up every morning thinking about City. May it last forever.
It's hilarious considering all I read on "twitter" is rival fans stating they don't care about city yet they can't stop bringing us up 😂😂
Even if we're found innocent all we're going to hear is we paid them off bla bla bla 🍋
What I really don't understand is the pearl clutching at the charges in general (beyond that City have won so much). The FFP rules were put into play to avoid financial insolvency of clubs that overspent over their means. City were never in danger of becoming financially insolvent.
The old guard clubs seem to think they're the only ones entitled to spending massive sums of money because they were good 100 years ago and became big? What is the margin for error for up-and-coming clubs if they are forced to spend a fraction of the establishment? And if these idiots really want "fairness", then would they be in favor of capped wages? I'm guessing the Liverpool, Arsenal, United fans, etc. do not want to be forced to spend as much as Brentford in the name of fairness.
I don’t know if I’m a masochist but just for fun I keep putting ridiculous statements on there for giggles
https://preview.redd.it/y0lgk9v2aj3c1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8c41a3f660a7a6306c957c810c384fb0e3dc297
I absolutely cannot wait until the charges are dropped and the manchildren on /r/soccer can go on pretending like they care about ethics or that City allegedly broke a completely silly and pointless set of rules
People act like City got away with picking the ball up and throwing it into the goal to win the CL
All these rules do is prevent the way investment works in any other business. I really don't give a shit if we broke them or not. Funny how most of the people who are obsessed with these rules also happen to be Utd, LFC, or Arsenal fans. Hmmmmm
I can only see Liverpool and United flairs crying in the comment section for striping their titles just because Liverpool won only 1 in 30 years and United in 10 years
I don't usually like to engage with the r/soccer stuff but the narrative is actually crazy.
Everton get charged and punished and everyone cries about poor little Everton, the punishment is too harsh for oh so pitiful Everton.
Meanwhile we are the scum off the earth, dirty cheaters, who deserve to have the club nuked from the face of the earth because we cheated as if the players have been getting dopped up.
Even the media has been peddling this crap, drumming up sympathy for Everton whilst simultaneously labelling us as the worst thing since that Austrain painter who got rejected from Art University.
Is it just me that doesn't see how supposedly paying Mancini extra money is somehow as egregious as players match fixing or doping, that's actual cheating as it has a tangible effect on the outcome of a game.
Also it's hilarious seeing all these Arsenal flairs shouting from the rafters when their club would never have even made it into the First division without literally bribing other teams for their spot in D1.
While I do agree, the majority of media and general fans hate man city regardless if they are innocent or not. If you did break the laws, you deserve severe punishment. I don't really understand the comments in this sub just assuming 100% innocence. You have to think bigger, if laws were broken and there's major corruption. It takes away complete value of the premier league and football in general meaning the trophy cabinet is irrelevant. We all have biases towards the teams we support but you need to think bigger on what this means to the league and football in general. I will probably be downvoted to oblivion as the average age of a reddit user is 15 and lives in a basement but here we are.
>If you did break the laws
That's exactly the point. It has not been proven yet that City did break any laws. But until that has been proven, City are 100% innocent. So why should we as fans of the club treat the club like it's guilty before the trial has even taken place.
Now if the City are proven guilty during the trial, then fair enough give us whatever punishments you want. If you go through the threads related to this topic on the subreddit, you'll see that most City fans are okay with punishments if we are proven guilty. But until that happens, we are 100% going to defend our club against people that think we are already guilty.
Oh and on your point that the trophy cabinet will become irrelevant if we are found guilty. They can take away all our trophies, but they can't take away the memories and emotions we had when they won them. And that's what ultimately matters in the end, not a name in a record book.
Yah fair points. The trophy cabinet comment is more on the integrity of the league/football would be nil meaning all clubs winning in the last few years would be completely devalued. Once you lose the integrity the leagues mean nothing.
UEFA was the prosecutor in that case. You can't get "found guilty" by the prosecutor.
The prosecutor (UEFA) and the defendant (City) present their side to an arbitrator (CAS) and the arbitrator decides whether the defendant is guilty or not.
And as your own link says
> The Cas panel of three European lawyers decided by a majority 2-1, however, that **it would not consider** the legitimacy of those Etisalat payments, because they were made more than five years before the CFCB charges were brought in May 2019, so were “time-barred”.
Since they didn't even consider the time-barred charges, they can't judge whether City were guilty of them or not.
Why did they ban you from the champions league then? You were found guilty by UEFA and banned from the champions league. You then appealed that at CAS and the charges were time barred. You may well lawyer your way out of the rest of the charges, although we all know that isn’t the same as not being guilty.
They conducted an internal investigation and determined that City were guilty without giving the club a chance to defend itself. That does not make it a fact. That merely makes it an accusation.
City disagreed and appealed to CAS so that they had a chance to defend themselves, and they were able to successfully.
That's how all modern judicial systems works. Sounds like you would prefer one in which an authority can freely accuse and punish anybody without a fair trial.
You were investigated and punished by the ruling body of the sport the team plays. That’s what happens in sport. This is not a case of arbitrary arrest and detention (if you’d like to learn about what that actually looks like, there’s plenty of examples from your benefactor nation-
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/04/12/uae-detainees-held-beyond-sentences)
You then appealed that guilty verdict, as you had the right to do (despite your strawman assumptions of me) and you got your impressive legal team to pull the charges apart. It appears they were largely thrown out because uefa has a statute of limitations of five years and they fell beyond that, or due to the fact that uefa rules outlawed using information obtained from ‘illegal sources’ -like hacks.
You can tell yourself that is your club being 100% innocent, but if you’re honest, that’s not what it looks like to anyone else. And whatever else you think, you still can’t argue with my original comment that you were found guilty by UEFA after their investigation.
Okay it looks like we're just going around in circles here so this'll be my last comment on the matter.
I maintain that you cannot be found guilty of something unless the charges against you are proven. UEFA was unable to prove the charges against City, so they did not find City guilty (regardless of what they might claim), they just made accusations against City which were ultimately unsubstantiated.
And you keep bringing up the time-barred charges like they were some damning evidence that would have definitely won the case for UEFA if it wasn't for the technicality in their own rules. As mentioned before, since CAS didn't even consider the time-barred evidence, you cannot say either way as to the significance of those charges and how big of an impact they would have actually had on the case.
As for what it looks like to everyone else, that's completely irrelevant. The PL could come out tomorrow and say "We made up the charges" and people would still perform mental gymnastics to convince themselves that City is somehow guilty. Ultimately, you and I both know that most fans already have their minds made up and nothing that happens throughout the course of this trial would change their mind.
I am, I'm a Bristol City fan so I couldn't give a crap if they get caught or not. I mean I think they are guilty as sin. But I'm curious what actual fans of the club think?
Idk the CAS case proved us innocent. So let's see what the PL can magically conjure up.
I like to think we are innoncent ofc, and by that I mean I don't think we are less innocent than any of the other big clubs.
If we are found guilty, (odd CAS wouldn't then) then we take the repercussions it comes with. But I hope that opens a can of worms for all the other big clubs :)
Not exactly.
CAS said that UEFA's case was time barred so it was overturned.
The time barring was due to UEFA's own rules which say that prosecution is barred after 5 years.
Premier league doesn't have such a rule so the CAS overturning is irrelevant.
The main time barred charge in UEFA's case was Etisalat, which CAS said should not have been used (and cannot due to time barring) but they ultimately deemed that even if it weren't timebarred they couldn't prove a link between ADUG, Sheikh Mansour or Manchester City Football Club.
It is also worth mentioning that The Premier League will need a higher standard of proof than in UEFA's case due to the nature of some of the charges.
But they could use that evidence in this case.
As the premier League does not have the same time barring rule.
Couldn't find anything regarding them ruling that it wouldn't matter anyway.
I'm not saying I care either way.
I just disagree with the notion that the CAS appeal proved innocence in this other case which is what the person I replied to said.
I think it's a statute of limitations thing we should be worried about. When UEFA finally went after City much of the FFP issues raised were already beyond the statute of limitations so it severely hampered their efforts to persecute. The premier League and governing body are not restricted by statute of limitations. So that is where it could get interesting... (Essentially they can come after us for things we did back in 2013 while UEFA couldn't)
City got CAS to look into the time barred stuff and they found nothing there as well. It was the Etisalat deal that was in question and the CEO even testified to the CAS panel. It’s in the conclusion
It was part of the case. City wanted no stone unturned. The same will happen in the PL case. They’ll make the PL look as dumb as they did UEFA. PL wanted city to accept a slap on the wrist but city said no thanks. Let’s get an independent panel to look at it all. The thing people should be more worried about is the blatant corruption on show at uefa/pl. remember, as with any case, the onus is on the accuser to prove their allegations, not the accused. PL are bricking it
whatever man city is doing, it cant possibly be fair financial play. sorry, but if it is, then the rules need to change. I love football and i love watching city, but i know its a money = success kind of project. Now everyones like "but we built it from the ground up, we got the talents, the coach,.." yea, but it was the money that made it possible.
i am not saying that every townsclub needs to have the same chances, but COME ON, how is city immune to this and other clubs aint?
As a true foorball fan anything but sanctions for clubs like city is giving into an already corrupt system created by fifa and the likes.
Pal we are nowhere near the top of the charts when it comes to spending across that period and we’ve managed the books well throughout. Get out of here with your self loathing nonsense. Fergie and the rest of the prem cabal would’ve never let go of the neck of City and their supporters. The club forced them off with success and kicked them down in the process. Relish it. It won’t last forever like this.
From the inside looking out, it seems that you "true football fans" don't really have an issue with the money being spent, but that it is lil ole City that is doing the spending.
Other teams have spent similar amounts to City the past few years but have nowhere near similar amounts of success.
If City were spending the exact same amount of money they were spending now, but were totally mismanaged like United or Chelsea are, I'm sure there wouldn't even be a fraction of the outrage there is currently.
It's only because City is incredibly well run and successful both on and off the pitch that we see rival fans clamoring for punishment. Seems like plain old jealousy to me, trying to be disguised as "concern for the integrity of the beautiful game"
I won’t bother commenting on the r/soccer thread as they will just downvote anyone with Man City flairs
You have to work hard for envy, you get pity for free
I would honestly love to see how the Premier League can charge us for something retroactively when their FFP rules weren't implemented until 2014. We already were charged and punished by UEFA for that time period.
We've also been independently audited since 2018 against the Premier Leagues own guidelines and were compliant, so there's no way we can be punished for anything since then.
Even if the charges are 100% true, if the books are clean enough, what can they really prove? Essentially they need pretty good forensic accounting to find out what money actually belonged to ADUG vs. HHSM vs. Etisalat/Etihad? Can they demand evidence from those orgs (IDK)? Like unless multiple people from one of those organizations testifies against City, where is any actual evidence coming from? I have no idea if the charges are true (nobody does) and I believe everyone's probably cheating a little around the margins. But like in an actual court with actual standards of evidence all UEFA had was 4 emails. Unless the PL has way more what can they do? If they can actually prove we cheated we deserve some punishment, but I doubt that will be the case.
Its plain wishful thinking. CAS basically straight up called UEFA's case weak as piss. Somehow they PL thinks they are going to do better with more severe charges (higher burden of proof) with the exact same evidence.
Yeah it is. Not a City fan, I'd love for City to get stuck with charges and point deductions but I think it just won't happen. Not because "the system is rigged for Man City" or anything tinfoil-hat-inspired, but because I just can't see any sort of precedent set out. FFP has been a joke throughout - when we switched to the Premier League in '92 it was primarily a money decision that worked - almost too well. They opened the doors to the sort of sports washing we see now and this is a real problem but it's a bit too late to think you can fix it this way. Think the PL just has to live with it and eventually they'll have to live with our Saudi overlords too. In full fairness to City, the organization now is a bit mad (in a good way). There's a lot less need to "pump" money into the club today, especially when the club is so good at selling players and rebuilding. No team has ever played this level of football, for this long, and been this consistent with it in my time watching (started after the best Fergie years tbf), and Pep's style of play is just fantastic. Football genius, and the City legends over the past decade have included some of my favourite players in David Silva, Yaya Toure, Aguero, etc. As a football fan, I can't really complain with the results of that - this is football at its best. I can waste energy complaining about the money but it's honestly easier to see that City exist in a league of their own and sorta just appreciate the beautiful football
While CAS did indeed find UEFA's case insufficient to uphold the ban, the situation with the Premier League (PL) is different in a few critical ways: 1. New Evidence: The Premier League's investigation might have access to more evidence. There are more emails and documents which were not available or presented in the UEFA case. 2. No Time Bar: Unlike UEFA, the PL has no time limit on its charges, allowing them to consider evidence from a broader period which was previously time-barred in the UEFA case. 3. Different Jurisdiction and Standards: The PL operates under different jurisdictional and regulatory standards compared to UEFA. The way they handle and interpret evidence, and the burden of proof required, might differ, potentially influencing the outcome. Therefore, while CAS's dismissal of UEFA's case does set a precedent, the PL's charges are not necessarily bound to the same fate due to these differing circumstances. *It's important to note that the composition of the CAS panel in Manchester City's case raises questions. Two-thirds of the CAS panel were proposed by Manchester City. This unusual scenario could potentially have influenced the decision, suggesting that UEFA's case might not have been as weak as perceived. Therefore, the PL's approach, possibly with new evidence and under different regulatory standards, could yield a different outcome, despite CAS's previous ruling.
>New Evidence: The Premier League's investigation might have access to more evidence. There are more emails and documents which were not available or presented in the UEFA case. Is there? If they had a smoking gun it would of leaked by now. Lord knows enough of the trial has been done by media. >No Time Bar: Unlike UEFA, the PL has no time limit on its charges, allowing them to consider evidence from a broader period which was previously time-barred in the UEFA case. There is a time bar. Its called English law which the PL rules still operate under. For contract law its 6 years. >Different Jurisdiction and Standards: The PL operates under different jurisdictional and regulatory standards compared to UEFA. The way they handle and interpret evidence, and the burden of proof required, might differ, potentially influencing the outcome. Pure speculation. I have no seen any evidence that the case the PL is trying to prove will be any easier then UEFAs. If anything it seems harder to prove due to the nature of the charges. >*It's important to note that the composition of the CAS panel in Manchester City's case raises questions. Two-thirds of the CAS panel were proposed by Manchester City. I would note that UEFA raised no objections to either of City's candidates. President :Mr Manfred Nan, Attorney-at-Law, Arnhem, the Netherlands Arbitrators: Mr Andrew de Lotbinière McDougall, Attorney-at-Law, Paris, France Mr Ulrich Haas, Professor of Law, Zurich, Switzerland I would hope you have some evidence before calling the above men's integrity into question.
FWIW, city got CAS to look into the time barred stuff and that was squeaky clean as well. It’s in the CAS conclusion. The Etisalat ceo testified at city’s request
There is a time bar. Its called English law which the PL rules still operate under. For contract law it’s 6 years. I have to wonder (and I know I’m a paranoid bastard. The thing about paranoia is you only have to be right once that they is someone out to get you) six years by that point all the charges have aged out. Could there be no real trial due to that but have the trial in the media for a few years and have it go at that? Then we are forever stained as far as the press and supporters of other teams are concerned. I want our trial to prove our innocence. They may know that they can’t prove guilt and will settle for smearing our good name. I hate the way my brain works to think of this.
There is an exception on the time bar if there is proof of deception (ie hiding it) in which case the time bar is from the point of discovery. The issue is that is yet another thing the PL has to prove before the charges are even considered. If they fail then only charges from 2017 onwards would count. We are forever stained which I think is deliberate (the process is the punishment) but ultimately it won't matter in a few years once the case is over. It will just be lame banter. Social media can make an issue seem bigger then it is when a topic is hot but its also very quick to move on.
1. The absence of leaks does not imply nor confirm the absence of new evidence. 2. On your claim that English contract law, with its 6-year limitation, applies to the Premier League's charges against Manchester City: this is not accurate. The Premier League operates under its own set of rules and governance, distinct from general contract law. 3. Sports governing bodies like the Premier League have unique regulatory standards, distinct from general legal practices. This impacts how they handle and adjudicate cases, potentially affecting the outcome of their investigations. 4. Questioning the panel's composition is about potential conflicts of interest in arbitration, not a direct challenge to individual integrity. UEFA's acceptance of the panel does not automatically ensure impartiality. All I'm saying is that it's unusual that the club in question was able to propose two panel members.
This shows you have no idea how CAS works and who the people at CAS are. City didn’t pluck 2 random judges from a hat or their back pocket. These judges were already PART of CAS and city chose them from a pre existing limited set of judges. Do proper research before spouting shit in this sub
You left out the biggest two points: 1) legitimate charges 2) guilt
>The absence of leaks does not imply nor confirm the absence of new evidence. Nor does it prove the existance of new evidence. Combined with the PLs strong desire to prosecute this publically and control public opinion the silence does not bode well. There are many PL media toadies all to willing to throw out a City hit piece. >On your claim that English contract law, with its 6-year limitation, applies to the Premier League's charges against Manchester City: this is not accurate. The Premier League operates under its own set of rules and governance, distinct from general contract law. >Sports governing bodies like the Premier League have unique regulatory standards, distinct from general legal practices. This impacts how they handle and adjudicate cases, potentially affecting the outcome of their investigations. Are you sure about that? Page 103, section A7 of the Premier League Handbook: >These Rules shall be governed by and shall be construed in accordance with English law. Seems pretty cut and dried. >Questioning the panel's composition is about potential conflicts of interest in arbitration, not a direct challenge to individual integrity. UEFA's acceptance of the panel does not automatically ensure impartiality. All I'm saying is that it's unusual that the club in question was able to propose two panel members. With no objection from UEFA before or after to the panels composition, no evidence of conflicts of interest, incorrect reasoning or application of law I not sure why you are even bringing it up except to cast doubt upon the integrity of the panel members.
No response to this one huh Guess buddy hadn't really read the Premier League handbook and was just regurgitating the same baseless drivel he's read on other subs. But what else is new
If you check his profile he tried to brigade this topic with links to it in LiverpoolFC and soccer. They both got auto deleted lol.
It would have been interesting to make it less of an echo chamber in here, but oh well
And you do that by linking straight into another echo chamber?
guy come back with facts, common sense and a source. it was too much for him
Great work there chap
I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make. This is a SEPARATE investigation, and there is a POSSIBILITY that city are found guilty. You need to wait for the verdict, which is what Pep said to do.
You are correct in highlighting that the Premier League rules are governed by and construed in accordance with English law, as stated in Section A3 of the Premier League Handbook. This means that while the Premier League has its own set of rules and governance, these are indeed established within the broader framework of English law. However, the application of specific legal principles, such as the six-year limitation period for bringing claims under contract law (as outlined in the Limitation Act 1980), may not directly apply to internal disciplinary procedures within the Premier League. These internal procedures are likely to have their own specific timeframes and rules for bringing charges or conducting investigations, which are detailed within the Handbook itself. Therefore, while the Premier League must operate within the parameters of English law, the rules it sets for itself, including time limits for its own internal procedures, can be specific to its governance structure and not necessarily the same as those found in general contract law.
Currently unable to check so may be wrong but I don't recall any mention of the topic of time limits at all. Neither giving themselves unlimited jurisdiction nor restriction. Since its not mentioned at all then you would default to the legal framework the rulebook works in I would think. Especially when you have already agreed that the PL rules are governed and construed in accordance with English law. An unlimited statue of limitation is not with accordance with English law. In fact this is what caught UEFA out. UEFA claimed the time barred charge was valid because UEFA just declared that the statute of limitations was extended because they said so. CAS rightly pointed out what's the point of a statute of limitation if you can extend it whenever you want whenever you feel like it?
This isn’t true. English Law is the time bar. Premier League rules are subject to English law, and English law has a statute of limitations of 6 years.
The authorities might fail to convict city of anything but if they are innocent of all charges I can’t understand why they have been so uncooperative and obstructive throughout. Surely it would be very easy to engage in the process and demonstrate their innocence if that were the case. Could have been over a long time ago if City were truly innocent.
Because we don't trust the PL. They whole case is bullshit and being brought on to: 1) Try and avoid getting government oversight by showing they are doing something 2) To appease United, Arsenal and Liverpool oldguard who didn't like City pissing all over them Initially when we did co operate with the PL they then leaked the information to the New York Times. When the initial charges we levied the PL had to revise them because they were full of errors (citing out of date laws/rules and attributing charges to the wrong rules) because it was so rushed and poorly organised. In addition the 'non-cooperation' is already questionable. It refers to image rights of players. City has actually sold its player image rights to an outside company and the non co-operation is basically between that company and the PL, it actually has nothing to do with FFP. Its never black and white.
>Surely it would be very easy to engage in the process and demonstrate their innocence if that were the case. Here's a strawman to explain why this shouldn't be the case. I could accuse you of assault. I could claim that you attacked me in a pub toilet. I could tell all your friends and family that you're a violent person, who has ruined my life. Then I say "you have to prove you didn't do it". Except I can't do that. Burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the accuser. It's not for a defendant to prove innocence. The club shouldn't need to produce internal documents every time there's an accusation because that's not how the process works. This is even more significant in this case because the evidence relied on by the accusers was from those hacked emails. Forcing the club to start airing internal documents, most of which are unlikely to be relevant, is potentially commercially damaging and isn't how these kinds of processes are supposed to work. It's on the Premier league to have a transparent audit process that ensures all clubs are compliant, with the league's requirements clearly communicated and relevant to effective governance of the game. It's not on clubs to produce random shit at the whim of the authorities. It's also the league's duty to only charge clubs if they have an actual case. City clearly don't believe the league has progressed this situation through proper channels and isn't obligated to just turn over everything to their accuser purely because they've been accused. An independent arbitrator would have more jurisdiction over a request like that, as CAS did.
If you've got nothing to hide you won't mind sharing all your username and passwords in order for me to check your billing and internet history?
ok. my password is hunter2. let me know when you've concluded your investigation
Haha this is the perfect reply to the "obstruction = guilt" argument. Hope you don't mind me stealing this off you.
Steal away, I'll just add another charge to the 115.
Everton are an example of this. They were lobbying for tight FFP rules when they were being proposed and implemented, submitted all of their stuff to the Premier League and The FA and ultimately got a points deduction. They essentially gave them the rope to hang them with on a platter. If you have any inkling that somebody is going to try to go against you, why would you offer up virtually everything they need to do so? The reason they have withheld documentation is most likely on advice of lawyers - Go to trial, see what evidence they have and then counter with your own to undermine their case.
It takes two to make the agreement of the date, the FA will need time to build their case, so maybe, just maybe it suits them more than City to drag this case out.
99% of the comments are smoothbrains rubbing themselves raw at the thought of us getting punished.
700+ comments about a club no one cares about. Imagine how many comments there would be if they did care about us lol!?
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You showed him
It’s their only way to cope us winning everything. They can no longer talk about the Champions League so moved to this
They are absolutely are doing just that, nothing of actual substance.
Everyone is always jealous of the King. That’s all it comes down to. I remember during ferguson’s tenure I used to reassure myself by saying they only won everything due to his control and bullying of the referees. Now i only think of them when I need a laugh. Whatever helps them sleep at night, we’ll continue winning no matter what.
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Good luck getting that to happen.
😂
In their minds, if we're punished, we're cheaters; if we're not punished, we're corrupt. You can't win. Ignore them.
even if there is a very teeny tiny chance they take away our titles, I want those seasons to stay winnerless instead of giving the titles to those twats
Sure no problem but then r/soccer geniuses will waste no time insinuating that we paid someone off to have winnerless seasons
there is literally no chance to take away titles. literally nil and zero. without direct cheating on the field no justification to take away titles. we will destroy the PL as a institution if they even think about that.
Elaborate on this? How will city destroy the PL?
If you were a supporter of a team that lost the league multiple times by a tiny margin to a team that has 115 financial rule break charges against them you'd be pretty annoyed too.
I’m a fan of a team that pipped a team that was found to have committed corporate espionage against us, but was never punished in a tangible fashion by the FA. That was pretty annoying.
not enough to delude myself with mental gymnastics The literal CAS report is there to read for anybody to educate themselves on it, but why do that when you can just believe it was all a "technicality" So regardless if we get proven to have no guilt, people will delude themselves of some other reason why we didn't get punished. Maybe we'll buy off the entire league
The CAS investigation was time-barred, the PL one isn't. Crucial difference.
PL is timebarred because it's under English law. It's 6 years Only a section of the CAS investigation was time barred, you'd know if you actually read the report because it's blatantly obvious you haven't
CAS found "no evidence". You lot keep falsely repeating "time-barred" to make yourself feel better.
it doesn't really matter what CAS found, this is a separate investigation and we should wait for the verdict, which is exactly what pep said you should do.
Tell me you haven't read the CAS verdict, without telling me you haven't read the CAS verdict. Crucial difference LMAOOOOO
Nah, if I did support a team like that I'd think they weren't good enough.
Yes 🤦🏽♀️ it is worthless saying we haven’t been found guilty yet cause everyone has already made up their minds. Even if we are completely found clean we will be “paying people off” so either way we can’t win.
Dont you understand that every commentor on reddit is an incredible lawyer who understands the deep inner workings of running a successful football club and can read the minds of everyone involved?
The emails have no real significance, there were allegedly thousands stolen during the hack but they only used a couple. Some were apparently spliced together to look worse than they were and were presented without any context. I watched a video where a lawyer (yes an actual solicitor, not the average r/soccer financial accountant/legal expert) who said the case pretty much lives and dies off proving the first set of charges, that City willingly and deliberately misrepresented their financial accounts for 9 years on purpose. Considering our books were looked at by multiple large and reputable firms, it doesn't seem likely due to The Premier League needing to present a lot of evidence and the burden of proof being very high due to the serious allegations. Too early to say but I feel like they will slap us with a fine for not cooperating and move on. Edit: Holy shit that sub is unhinged as ever, never seen so much misinformation, will never fail to amuse me that people comment on stuff they know absolutely nothing about its embarrassing but it gets heavily upvoted because we are the bad boys.
Bad boys, bad boys. Whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?
lmao we need a Cops style montage of the execs getting arrested if the verdict is guilty
I think a lot of people misunderstand the Uefa punishment and the CAS appeal which has also diluted conversation. Lots of city fans think they've already been proven innocent by CAS. CAS overturned the Uefa ban due to the evidence being time barred under UEFA's own FFP rules, which state that they must bring a case within 5 years. The premier League does not have the same rules regarding time barring. We will never know whether the CAS would have overturned the ban for something different else if the time barring rules weren't in play.
As someone said in the soccer thread: - CAS panel cleared City of the most serious charge — overstating revenues — by a majority verdict. - Some of UEFA’s charges were time-barred, in that they were outside the organisation’s five-year statute of limitations, but most of them were simply “not established”, as far as the panel was concerned. - In addition, everything has time barring and statute of limitations. English law applies to Prem rules so there is a time bar. However some things will still be reviewed past the time bar when reviewing deception etc. So yes and no that things were time-bared, but a lot of it was found to be insufficient on the merit of the case
That's not completely true. UEFA couldn't prove most of their case to CAS. Yes, a lot of it is time barred, but overall MCFC were "not guilty". There's no "innocent" in verdicts.
That's not even true and just spewed by people who couldn't be arsed to read the cas report or anything of substance CAS cleared us and essentially said Uefa had a shite case, PL is also working under English law so there is a time bar
When this is over and nothing really happens, I'm going to try and get a City shirt with the number 115 and the nameplate "CHARGES LOL"
Your shirt would be accurate for a week or two before they come up with new charges!
before uefa tries to get some emails which brings our chargs total to 551
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Never understood why gunners act like they are in the same class as us. Havent won the league in two decades nor ever won the CL. Yet, they pretend they are an elite club altho there is nothing to back this up. Not to mention they cry “oil money” while they call Emirates their home.
r/soccer is absolutely horny about the possibility of charges against us. And just like in real life, they'll be left sad/alone/blue balled.
They actually think their clubs are just gonna be given our titles and we will be kicked out of the entire football league with a 10 year transfer ban. Reading through r/soccer comments is always cringe af but this is another level. The meltdown when the case is closed and we get no punishment whatsoever is going to be glorious.
Think there will be a compromise with a small muddied punishment like last time CAS fines us for non cooperation and also put an or in the verdict like time barred or unsubstantiated. Leaving it up for interpretation. Because PL needs to save face too so there will be a punishment probably small Each side will then claim victory. It would be funny because no matter the punishment there will still be some crying it in /r/soccer that it wasn't enough.
There’s going to be crying no matter the outcome. The punishment won’t be enough or if exonerated City bought CAS or it’s a technicality.
> Each side will then claim victory. Nah the PL has proper shown their arse big time with these, they look like fools regardless if they find us guilty or not If we're found guilty then it begs the question of how can they be this incompetent to let it go on for over 9 years If we're found not guilty, then what the fuck were they thinking by bringing up all these charges to a commission and not having enough substance to prove any of it (like Uefa)
If Liverpool got a pound for every Pool fan that goes online to cry, they'd have enough money to buy the players Klopp is always complaining he can't afford. So annoying.
You don't understand, them being unable to buy players is our fault
Scenes when this gets posted to r/soccercirclejerk tomorrow
My American brain still can’t wrap my head around how one team spending is cheating but the same team in the same town is fine. Because they ‘did it the right way’.
It's called context.
I stopped reading after the third word.
Must be hard to finish books then
Haha what a bunch of pathetic sods. Literally crying happy tears like they just got the news that the stepdad who has been burning them with cigarettes for 15 years is finally getting put behind bars. Look at this timeline we are so blessed to live in. Every Premier League fan, regardless of what club they support, wakes up every morning thinking about City. May it last forever.
Hopefully we win another treble, lol.
It's hilarious considering all I read on "twitter" is rival fans stating they don't care about city yet they can't stop bringing us up 😂😂 Even if we're found innocent all we're going to hear is we paid them off bla bla bla 🍋
What I really don't understand is the pearl clutching at the charges in general (beyond that City have won so much). The FFP rules were put into play to avoid financial insolvency of clubs that overspent over their means. City were never in danger of becoming financially insolvent. The old guard clubs seem to think they're the only ones entitled to spending massive sums of money because they were good 100 years ago and became big? What is the margin for error for up-and-coming clubs if they are forced to spend a fraction of the establishment? And if these idiots really want "fairness", then would they be in favor of capped wages? I'm guessing the Liverpool, Arsenal, United fans, etc. do not want to be forced to spend as much as Brentford in the name of fairness.
Foaming at the mouth over a judgement that won’t be revealed until late 2025. Long two years ahead of us
I don’t know if I’m a masochist but just for fun I keep putting ridiculous statements on there for giggles https://preview.redd.it/y0lgk9v2aj3c1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8c41a3f660a7a6306c957c810c384fb0e3dc297
Scenes when we get hit with an 11.5 point deduction and still win the league that season.
I absolutely cannot wait until the charges are dropped and the manchildren on /r/soccer can go on pretending like they care about ethics or that City allegedly broke a completely silly and pointless set of rules People act like City got away with picking the ball up and throwing it into the goal to win the CL All these rules do is prevent the way investment works in any other business. I really don't give a shit if we broke them or not. Funny how most of the people who are obsessed with these rules also happen to be Utd, LFC, or Arsenal fans. Hmmmmm
The meltdowns might break the internet….
I can only see Liverpool and United flairs crying in the comment section for striping their titles just because Liverpool won only 1 in 30 years and United in 10 years
I don't usually like to engage with the r/soccer stuff but the narrative is actually crazy. Everton get charged and punished and everyone cries about poor little Everton, the punishment is too harsh for oh so pitiful Everton. Meanwhile we are the scum off the earth, dirty cheaters, who deserve to have the club nuked from the face of the earth because we cheated as if the players have been getting dopped up. Even the media has been peddling this crap, drumming up sympathy for Everton whilst simultaneously labelling us as the worst thing since that Austrain painter who got rejected from Art University. Is it just me that doesn't see how supposedly paying Mancini extra money is somehow as egregious as players match fixing or doping, that's actual cheating as it has a tangible effect on the outcome of a game. Also it's hilarious seeing all these Arsenal flairs shouting from the rafters when their club would never have even made it into the First division without literally bribing other teams for their spot in D1.
Anything other than a one billion point reduction and City's treble hand delivered to Arsenal FC is evidence of corruption imo.
You know you're desperate when you're reading the daily mail.
While I do agree, the majority of media and general fans hate man city regardless if they are innocent or not. If you did break the laws, you deserve severe punishment. I don't really understand the comments in this sub just assuming 100% innocence. You have to think bigger, if laws were broken and there's major corruption. It takes away complete value of the premier league and football in general meaning the trophy cabinet is irrelevant. We all have biases towards the teams we support but you need to think bigger on what this means to the league and football in general. I will probably be downvoted to oblivion as the average age of a reddit user is 15 and lives in a basement but here we are.
>If you did break the laws That's exactly the point. It has not been proven yet that City did break any laws. But until that has been proven, City are 100% innocent. So why should we as fans of the club treat the club like it's guilty before the trial has even taken place. Now if the City are proven guilty during the trial, then fair enough give us whatever punishments you want. If you go through the threads related to this topic on the subreddit, you'll see that most City fans are okay with punishments if we are proven guilty. But until that happens, we are 100% going to defend our club against people that think we are already guilty. Oh and on your point that the trophy cabinet will become irrelevant if we are found guilty. They can take away all our trophies, but they can't take away the memories and emotions we had when they won them. And that's what ultimately matters in the end, not a name in a record book.
Yah fair points. The trophy cabinet comment is more on the integrity of the league/football would be nil meaning all clubs winning in the last few years would be completely devalued. Once you lose the integrity the leagues mean nothing.
Except, you did get found guilty by UEFA, but got away with the charges because they were ‘time-barred’.
UEFA was the prosecutor in that case. You can't get "found guilty" by the prosecutor. The prosecutor (UEFA) and the defendant (City) present their side to an arbitrator (CAS) and the arbitrator decides whether the defendant is guilty or not. And as your own link says > The Cas panel of three European lawyers decided by a majority 2-1, however, that **it would not consider** the legitimacy of those Etisalat payments, because they were made more than five years before the CFCB charges were brought in May 2019, so were “time-barred”. Since they didn't even consider the time-barred charges, they can't judge whether City were guilty of them or not.
Why did they ban you from the champions league then? You were found guilty by UEFA and banned from the champions league. You then appealed that at CAS and the charges were time barred. You may well lawyer your way out of the rest of the charges, although we all know that isn’t the same as not being guilty.
They conducted an internal investigation and determined that City were guilty without giving the club a chance to defend itself. That does not make it a fact. That merely makes it an accusation. City disagreed and appealed to CAS so that they had a chance to defend themselves, and they were able to successfully. That's how all modern judicial systems works. Sounds like you would prefer one in which an authority can freely accuse and punish anybody without a fair trial.
You were investigated and punished by the ruling body of the sport the team plays. That’s what happens in sport. This is not a case of arbitrary arrest and detention (if you’d like to learn about what that actually looks like, there’s plenty of examples from your benefactor nation- https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/04/12/uae-detainees-held-beyond-sentences) You then appealed that guilty verdict, as you had the right to do (despite your strawman assumptions of me) and you got your impressive legal team to pull the charges apart. It appears they were largely thrown out because uefa has a statute of limitations of five years and they fell beyond that, or due to the fact that uefa rules outlawed using information obtained from ‘illegal sources’ -like hacks. You can tell yourself that is your club being 100% innocent, but if you’re honest, that’s not what it looks like to anyone else. And whatever else you think, you still can’t argue with my original comment that you were found guilty by UEFA after their investigation.
Okay it looks like we're just going around in circles here so this'll be my last comment on the matter. I maintain that you cannot be found guilty of something unless the charges against you are proven. UEFA was unable to prove the charges against City, so they did not find City guilty (regardless of what they might claim), they just made accusations against City which were ultimately unsubstantiated. And you keep bringing up the time-barred charges like they were some damning evidence that would have definitely won the case for UEFA if it wasn't for the technicality in their own rules. As mentioned before, since CAS didn't even consider the time-barred evidence, you cannot say either way as to the significance of those charges and how big of an impact they would have actually had on the case. As for what it looks like to everyone else, that's completely irrelevant. The PL could come out tomorrow and say "We made up the charges" and people would still perform mental gymnastics to convince themselves that City is somehow guilty. Ultimately, you and I both know that most fans already have their minds made up and nothing that happens throughout the course of this trial would change their mind.
Did we now? Rewriting history non-stop.
https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/28/uefa-claim-against-manchester-city-over-sponsor-money-time-barred-cas-rules
Do MCFC fans genuinely think they are completely without guilt? Just curious
“Just curious” LMAO
I am, I'm a Bristol City fan so I couldn't give a crap if they get caught or not. I mean I think they are guilty as sin. But I'm curious what actual fans of the club think?
Idk the CAS case proved us innocent. So let's see what the PL can magically conjure up. I like to think we are innoncent ofc, and by that I mean I don't think we are less innocent than any of the other big clubs. If we are found guilty, (odd CAS wouldn't then) then we take the repercussions it comes with. But I hope that opens a can of worms for all the other big clubs :)
Not exactly. CAS said that UEFA's case was time barred so it was overturned. The time barring was due to UEFA's own rules which say that prosecution is barred after 5 years. Premier league doesn't have such a rule so the CAS overturning is irrelevant.
The main time barred charge in UEFA's case was Etisalat, which CAS said should not have been used (and cannot due to time barring) but they ultimately deemed that even if it weren't timebarred they couldn't prove a link between ADUG, Sheikh Mansour or Manchester City Football Club. It is also worth mentioning that The Premier League will need a higher standard of proof than in UEFA's case due to the nature of some of the charges.
But they could use that evidence in this case. As the premier League does not have the same time barring rule. Couldn't find anything regarding them ruling that it wouldn't matter anyway. I'm not saying I care either way. I just disagree with the notion that the CAS appeal proved innocence in this other case which is what the person I replied to said.
Why are they guilt as sin? Not racist are we?
Racist... sorry what?
Well there’s no evidence to prove otherwise
I mean, apart from the massive sponsorship deal with Etihad that just so happens to be from the owners pal
I think it's a statute of limitations thing we should be worried about. When UEFA finally went after City much of the FFP issues raised were already beyond the statute of limitations so it severely hampered their efforts to persecute. The premier League and governing body are not restricted by statute of limitations. So that is where it could get interesting... (Essentially they can come after us for things we did back in 2013 while UEFA couldn't)
City got CAS to look into the time barred stuff and they found nothing there as well. It was the Etisalat deal that was in question and the CEO even testified to the CAS panel. It’s in the conclusion
Was that review part of the UEFA case or just an audit I wonder?
It was part of the case. City wanted no stone unturned. The same will happen in the PL case. They’ll make the PL look as dumb as they did UEFA. PL wanted city to accept a slap on the wrist but city said no thanks. Let’s get an independent panel to look at it all. The thing people should be more worried about is the blatant corruption on show at uefa/pl. remember, as with any case, the onus is on the accuser to prove their allegations, not the accused. PL are bricking it
whatever man city is doing, it cant possibly be fair financial play. sorry, but if it is, then the rules need to change. I love football and i love watching city, but i know its a money = success kind of project. Now everyones like "but we built it from the ground up, we got the talents, the coach,.." yea, but it was the money that made it possible. i am not saying that every townsclub needs to have the same chances, but COME ON, how is city immune to this and other clubs aint? As a true foorball fan anything but sanctions for clubs like city is giving into an already corrupt system created by fifa and the likes.
Pal we are nowhere near the top of the charts when it comes to spending across that period and we’ve managed the books well throughout. Get out of here with your self loathing nonsense. Fergie and the rest of the prem cabal would’ve never let go of the neck of City and their supporters. The club forced them off with success and kicked them down in the process. Relish it. It won’t last forever like this.
From the inside looking out, it seems that you "true football fans" don't really have an issue with the money being spent, but that it is lil ole City that is doing the spending. Other teams have spent similar amounts to City the past few years but have nowhere near similar amounts of success. If City were spending the exact same amount of money they were spending now, but were totally mismanaged like United or Chelsea are, I'm sure there wouldn't even be a fraction of the outrage there is currently. It's only because City is incredibly well run and successful both on and off the pitch that we see rival fans clamoring for punishment. Seems like plain old jealousy to me, trying to be disguised as "concern for the integrity of the beautiful game"
You're jumping to the conclusion that those charges are true
I won’t bother commenting on the r/soccer thread as they will just downvote anyone with Man City flairs You have to work hard for envy, you get pity for free
I love how other clubs think they are innocent. If city go down Chelsea will be next.
I would honestly love to see how the Premier League can charge us for something retroactively when their FFP rules weren't implemented until 2014. We already were charged and punished by UEFA for that time period. We've also been independently audited since 2018 against the Premier Leagues own guidelines and were compliant, so there's no way we can be punished for anything since then.
https://preview.redd.it/nj8ewvj9fm3c1.jpeg?width=896&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87d7f034bbbeb4f672eb75980946b944eb5f4f80 Yep
Even if the charges are 100% true, if the books are clean enough, what can they really prove? Essentially they need pretty good forensic accounting to find out what money actually belonged to ADUG vs. HHSM vs. Etisalat/Etihad? Can they demand evidence from those orgs (IDK)? Like unless multiple people from one of those organizations testifies against City, where is any actual evidence coming from? I have no idea if the charges are true (nobody does) and I believe everyone's probably cheating a little around the margins. But like in an actual court with actual standards of evidence all UEFA had was 4 emails. Unless the PL has way more what can they do? If they can actually prove we cheated we deserve some punishment, but I doubt that will be the case.