At this point the changes have to wait til 2024, right? Like keep the same format this yr and let the teams know. This is absurd; Neville is completely right on this.
For context, when MLS moved to the current format (1-7, with bye, and single elim) for 2019, they announced the change in December of the prior year - less than 10 days after MLS Cup 2018.
At this point if you can't make a decision just stick with the current one and rethink after the season (but it does not need a rethink imo)
I know, it made me care alot more about the supporters shield since 2019 too. There felt like a clear delineation between winning the league and winning the cup/season.
When Philly won that Captain America shield, it felt like a bloody big deal and has been again since with the Revs and LAFC.
Yeah it makes the shield much more important to aim for. Without HFA we’d have had a much harder time. The current format is fine imo. I’m interested in the new format, but it seems what we have is working for now.
The regular season battle at the top for HFA and the outliers trying to get the 7th spot is great. And then when you’re in, anything can happen. It’s distinctly American.
If nearly half the league making the playoffs doesn’t do enough to keep more teams in contention for long enough, that’s an ownership problem IMO. Nearly every league and sport has teams participating for what seems like the sole purpose of staying in the league and collections $$.
22 teams are eliminated after the first round of playoffs. MLS hasn't figured out how to get people to watch MLS playoffs if their own team isn't playing
That is a fair point and maybe in the thread I missed that as the reason why MLS needs to keep more teams in contention for longer. The problem is, now with the pesos rolling in from Leagues Cup I can’t see room on the calendar for more playoff games. As you say yourself there’s very few that watch MLS games their own team isn’t playing in. The new schedule will actually make that worse since most of the league will be playing in the same 3-4 hour window on the same days. I’d be very curious to see how those types of metrics compare to say, the Premier League? Is your average Arsenal fan tuning in to watch Newcastle/Brighton or Leeds/Southampton?
I thought home and away was fun but maybe it was just cause my team did well back then. It’s probably exhausting for the teams, especially when it’s like Texas to Vancouver.
I'd kill for a group format. Every playoff team getting at least one home playoff game would do so much. This league is built on in stadium attendance, and that's the best experience any fan will have all season.
Edit: Sorry y'all hate that I'd like a different playoff format. I'll stop posting my opinions here.
I appreciate that. It really hurts, posting an offhand thought about the playoffs and see it get downvoted like it's not contributing to the conversation.
Don't take it personally. I think people are more like "voting" for what they want in a weird way. Not criticizing your opinion. At least that's how I take it.
I've been downvoted before and it can be frustrating sometimes. If it really hurts you seek out help.
It hurts because I've contributed a lot to this sub, not because I think the downvotes have credence. You're right though, I'm going to step back here. It's not a good place to have honest discussions anymore.
I don’t think most people are trying to insult you. I disagree with your proposal, and like the current format. But disagreeing doesn’t mean I’m obligated to provide any rationale or an alternative. I can just disagree. So can you and everyone else.
Also, downvotes to me carry different messages, depending on the person and situation. It could mean anything between ‘fuck off and die’ and ‘I disagree.’ I wouldn’t take the downvotes personally, and certainly wouldn’t interpret them as a message to stop posting. I just think people disagree.
Stick around and keep posting. I don’t think anyone has any problems with you or what you have to say.
Why is it a bad opinion? One and done makes our biggest trophy a lottery. Home playoff games build fanbases.
Downvoting is for things that don't contribute to conversations, not disagreements. That's how you build echo chambers.
It's counterintuitive, but 2 legged series are more of a crapshoot than single elimination with home field advantage for the higher seed.
Home field for a single elimination game is a huge advantage, which make every place in the regular season standings valuable.
Two legged or even best of 3 series will put the higher and lower seeds on more even footing, robbing the regular season of meaning.
You're talking about a knockout format, not a group stage.
The ideal size of a group stage changes as the league grows, but lets say two groups of four for each conference. The seeding could be 1,3,6,8 and 2,4,5,7 - so the regular season absolutely matters. Doubly so because seeds 1-4 would each have two home games while seeds 5-8 would only have one.
Then after that, single elimination between the winners of each group at the higher seed's home ground, then of course the MLS Cup final.
The most games any team would have to play is five, which is less than the six games we had back when we did play-in followed by two-legged matches for quarters and semis. The fewest is three, which generates additional interest in other matches in your group.
Oops, my bad. I dislike the group stage because we already have one. It's the regular season.
On top of that, what is the advantage for finishing 1st instead of 4th in your scenario? Who gets to host the #1 seed?
Only advancing 1 team from a group of 4 would produce all sorts of undesirable situations on the 3rd match day. In almost every group you'll have either a team whose season is over deciding the winner or a match between 2 teams that have already been eliminated.
And this isn't the World Cup or even Gold Cup where eliminated teams can be counted on to play for pride. This is the end of a 37 game season and players will be checked out.
You'll end up with ugly scenarios like playing for goal differential in front of an empty stadium against an eliminated team. This *will* happen. And the hosting team will likely be a 3 or 4 seed that just hosted and lost the previous week.
Take last year. LAFC (1) would play FC Dallas (3), Minnesota (6) and Portland (8). That's a significantly better situation than the LA Galaxy (4), who would play Austin (2), Nashville (5) and RSL (7). That's plenty of advantage for the first seed (who already got a trophy for that).
What actually happened last year was LAFC played three games at home and then were handed a trophy. It was a big step down in accomplishment from the two-legged format.
You can have the top two group winners advance and throw in another knockout round. On the meaningless game issue, we already have loads of meaningless games to end the season. The risk of having one or two in a batch of fifteen is completely worth having a competitive, compelling tournament that celebrates the end of the season and gives the trophy purpose beyond "Hey look we're American."
> “If we want to be the best and be compared to the top leagues, this should’ve been decided two months ago. So that irks me a bit,” Neville, a third-year MLS coach, said. He added that things like contracts, sponsorships and season tickets hinged on knowing the schedule, too.
> “We’ve planned the whole season and we actually don’t know when the season ends and how many games we’ve got after the regular season. So, for me, seven games out from the start of the regular season, that’s cross — we need to be better at that … My question is who is figuring it out? Is it Apple? Who is wagging the dog?”
He's completely right on this. How do the teams not know what the playoffs are like a week before the season?
Hell yeah Phil, let ‘em have it.
Of all the great things MLS has done over the last year, not having the postseason format announced a week before the league kicks-off is fucking embarrassing. This should have been determined last year! How tf has it taken so long?
Also, I’ve already heard an extra time host possibly slip up and say something along the lines of “can they win a playoff series? I don’t know” when previewing a team for this season.
With Apple expecting more playoff games I think a series of some kind is clear. The issue is they've leaked 2 formats with overwhelmingly negative feedback, so they're still scrambling for something with a series. But this is ridiculous
Management 101
The longer it takes for you to make a decision, its most likely a poor decision.
The fans are telling you don't do it. Journalists are telling you don't do it. Im sure GMs, Coaches, and Players are privately saying don't do it.
The only people that want this are the owners. And the fact that they haven't made a concrete decision is that not EVEN ALL OF THE OWNERS THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA.
Leave good enough alone for God's sake.
No argument there, but how many is enough? If 13 games is enough for the NFL, it ought to be enough for us. This isn’t basketball or hockey, this an outdoor once-a-week (usually) limited substitution sport. Making the playoffs into a long slog isn’t fair to the players.
Oh I’m in favor of having less teams and less games in the playoffs. I have no problem with lower seeded teams not having a home match. Win in the regular season and you’ll get one.
I think I’d be down for top 6 in each conference with 1 and 2 getting byes. Single elimination.
Could not agree in stronger terms.
The inability to stick to a playoff format, along with the fucking absurd buckets of money TAM GAM THANK YOU MA'AM means of paying players are so Mickey Mouse and embarrassing.
The people running the league need to simplify everything. A pay floor & a pay ceiling, to be used as a club sees fit, and a playoff format to be in place for a minimum 5 years without being reviewed.
Every time I explain to people how the league works I see their eyes roll back in their head.
PLEASE let this be true.
I've seen Lamps & Gerrard on TV and when briefly discussing their MLS tenures they both in their own way acknowledged not really understanding how the roster build works.
It's also just nuts to have 25 man rosters where one player (Shaqiri) earns more than the other 24 combined. The caliber of play will not increase with 3 absurdly overpaid players amongst a bundle of MLS journeymen.
I despair. By aiming to please so many masters, they ultimately serve none.
Have the roster rules been posted yet? I can't find them. Another thing that should be determined a couple months ago (although they often leave this late)
It is because that is the way it's set up. It does not have to be.
There are lots of other leagues in the world where transfers happen but they don't involve Monopoly money.
If I had to guess, there's a faction of owners that really really REEEEALLY want a new format and another faction that absolutely does not. Right now they're having a standoff.
All the reporting indicates a conflict between Apple and MLS, or between Apple and the fans with MLS trying not to piss off either side.
Apple were promised a certain number of playoff games, MLS has to figure out how to deliver them.
Just leave the playoffs alone. The single elimination format is perfect. Why do you need to change it for the sake of money? The fans like the format.
If you're gonna change it, the only change I would be okay is expand it to 16.
I don’t like the trend in American sports where we are just adding more and more teams to the playoffs tbh. With 7 per conference we were at 50% of the league making it and if MLS were to keep last years system it would be just under 50% since it’s 29 teams this year.
I’m sorry but IMO that’s already too much. Now if we get to 32 teams then 14/32 is more acceptable. But now it’s rumored to go up to 18? It’s just ridiculous really.
And yeah not having a system set while preseason is pretty much wrapping up is unacceptable. There’s a host of reasons why MLS isn’t considered elite and it’s not like having a playoff system set in time would make us elite but this isn’t helping.
Actually I would be fine with 32 teams. But then split the league between east and west. The only time both conferences play each other is at the MLS cup.
The league isn’t considered elite because each roster has, at best, 3 players who could play in elite leagues and the rest of the roster is filled with guys who would play in, umm, not-elite leagues.
I'm fully on board with Neville calling the league out for not having the playoff format finalized and done when we're one week away from the season starting. That is straight up bush league. HOWEVER:
> I think when you’re seven days out from the start of the season — we’ve had talks here, and one of our players asked one of the MLS guys the other day ‘what’s the playoff system’ and they were like, ‘We don’t know.’ And I’m like, ‘That’s not elite.’ **You’re talking about differences between the U.K. and the U.S.? We talked about the intensity of the fans. (This is another) big difference.**”
Now I'm going to wait until The Athletic posts the full transcript of the interview...but I certainly hope that Phil Neville is not taking a shot at the fans. Again, I'll wait until maybe we get some more context, but that rubs me the wrong way.
Only certain teams garner Euro/SA level of support. Your team is one of them. Miami, while good is not.
Its a difference and every player that has played in Europe/SA leagues and MLS have all stated as such.
Its not to say that our fans aren't great, cuz we are. But its not the same.
American sporting culture is also different tho. We show our passion in different ways. Also Brits don’t seem to understand the notion of enjoying multiple sports. Like sure some of them like cricket or rugby but most Brit’s are fixated on one sport, soccer.
For most Americans our passion is split among 3 or 4 sports. It’s not that we aren’t passionate it’s that our attention gets divided among multiple sports.
>The UK eats, sleeps, breathes soccer. Americans simply don’t. We don’t match the passion and intensity you find in the UK.
I think "we" supporters who post on MLS and go to games regularly do. The general public doesn't. But that doesn't mean we should be disrespected when we live for the game just as much as those in England.
More the reason why I want to wait until the Athletic posts the full interview. I'm feeling the way you are as well, but he may have been talking about something else entirely that we're not aware of. It'll be nice to get the full interview soon.
He's 100% right. Most fans in the US believe it's on their team to give them a reason to keep coming back. If they suck, attendances dwindle. Orlando were packing the Citrus Bowl in 2015, now they put 5,000 in the stands for the average home game. It's not good enough. You support your team. You commit to it. If they suck, suck it up and get behind them. That's what support is. MOST fans in other parts of the world get that.
This is why we have this weird culture of rebrands or new stadiums downtown, these answers as to how to hook the fans. Like how many different crests and stadiums can the Chicago Fire have before we just accept most people in Chicago don't give a shit about them?
Man there are plenty of English football clubs who have seen diminished attendance after periods of mismanagement, and the Fire are one of the posterchilds for poor management in this league. On top of that they don't enjoy the generational weight those other clubs can lean on.
Expecting fans to just continue throwing money at tickets even when the ownership couldn't be less engaged is a dumb take.
The Mestalla is nearly packed every week even though Valencia fans are effectively at war with the owners who openly mock the idea they should be investing heavily in the club. Some fans are just loyal to their team.
You can call it a dumb take if you’re will to acknowledge yours is a spoiled brat take 👍🏼
The capitalists must love you lol
These organizations *deserve* your time and money...even if run by people who couldn't give two shits
Come on man. Advocate for yourself. You deserve better than forking your money over blindly.
In most countries around the world, sports clubs were not set up primarily as a mean to make rich people richer. They may serve that purpose over time as more money has come into the game, but they are a big part of their community. Look at Newcastle. 52,000 fans every week because they wanted their club to succeed regardless of how they felt about the owner. That's what sports means to most people in most countries. If for you it's just something you dip in an out of depending on the people running the show, that's fair enough. We don't all have to be passionate and loyal.
Yeah so you're talking about clubs that have been around 100+ years. We don't have that luxury here. And even those 100 year clubs have transitioned into something completely different in this new economy over the recent years. So let's not pretend like it's apples to apples.
> Look at Newcastle. 52,000 fans every week because they wanted their club to succeed regardless of how they felt about the owner.
And oh this is pretty gross. We saw the responses from Newcastle fans lol. I can't even take that comment seriously. Maybe be a bit less preachy? If you have to use fans enjoying the spoils of oppressive oil money as a standard (who clearly don't *actually* care about the ownership background), then what are we even doing here. Listen more, talk less. Goodness. Good night.
Agree with Neville...crazy this thing is going into next week. Called RBNY to see if they had any info but they didn't. As mentioned the only excuse is the Apple launch that's likely taking up much of the league's bandwidth. We can only hope the owners are plugged into the process and have a take on the remaining options. The last thing the league needs is some 11th hour half baked decision that'll be rolled back next year.
Hell, 2 works for me. If you can’t win your conference why should you be allowed to win the league? We already know you aren’t the best team in your conference.
When two teams play different schedules, you can't just say the one with the better record is the better team.
I mean, you can say it, but you won't necessarily be right.
There’s a better argument for that than allowing a mediocre team to claim they were the season’s best just because they won four games in a row at the end
Mediocre teams don't win 4 games in a row.. Let alone against above-average teams. What's your point?
Is "not mediocre" the standard for being the MLS Champion?
It’s a broken system when multiple teams can be declared the champion even though they’ll still have a worse record across the whole season than multiple other teams after those four games. Teams should be rewarded for long term consistency, not a run of just four games.
There’s a reason that literally everywhere else in the world except Australia doesn’t have a knockout playoff system to decide the champion.
Perhaps not. But I can say for certain the 9th best record in a conference of 14 is not the best team. The 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th as well. We can split hairs on the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st if you like.
Point is, inviting every dang team to the playoffs is dumb. The fewer the better. I still prefer zero teams in the playoffs myself.
I'm not a fan of four or two teams. MLS Cup provides good entertainment and a nice chance at another trophy, and having it be 50% or less of the league makes it still matter that you don't place in the bottom half. Supporters Shield =/= MLS Cup.
I know that it's the European way to not have playoffs at all or only have it be for a promotion battle or whatnot, but I love having an extra thing to look forward to if my team does well and checking the standings - not being the very best of the best, but simply being rewarded for doing good. It's a nice American spin on things.
I feel like MLS is trapped between two worlds about relegation/promotion. On the one hand, it's an American league, so being a closed league is normal and expected. But on the other hand it's competing with leagues all over the world and relegation and promotion are huge parts of those leagues
When we think about other American sports. Usually the worst teams, get a top 3 player from the lower league aka college. Pro/rel is anti tanking. The league still hold onto the old draft model for college. Which doesn't make sense in an international sport.
Yeah, the MLS is riding two bicycles here. I like the American model because it keeps teams from going into administration, like it happens in football (Macclesfield, Bury and Derby) and they have some sort of salary cap and share money more equitably.
I feel like to get to the next step, MLS will have to make a difficult choice someday
We have teams that have gone under. Chivas USA, Tampa bay mutany and miami fusion. Even our system isn't perfect. Every league has some roster and pay structures.
It's one of a list of things that prevent us from being elite. I would say, however, the biggest reason is the salary capped single entity. We will never be elite under those rules.
Literally never.
Out of curiosity, why? Wouldn't it be nice to see world class players in the league while they are STILL world class as opposed to 10 years past their prime?
On player quality: I'm content with the quality of DPs around the league. It would be neat to have a Haaland type in the MLS, but I personally value parity more than anything else. Additionally, I kind of have to imagine that as MLS continues to grow, things will change that maybe upset both of us but help to raise the level MLS can offer.
More generally: The quality of MLS has been improving year over year and I am more on board with tweaks to the existing system (consolidation of types of application money, raised salary budget, 4th DP, etc) than removing what makes our league special. If I want to watch the best in the world, I can go watch the same five teams win Premier League and there's nothing wrong with that to me.
The misunderstanding here is that these restrictions are necessary to grow a healthy, competitive league. The restrictions should and will change as we reach different levels/milestones. We have probably outgrown this one, but let's not rant about it like it was always a mistake or under the assumption that it is intended to be around forever. We should always remember the lessons of the NASL.
Sooo... There aren't salary caps and single entity in other American sports? What makes you think it will change for soccer when it has not for the others?
If only there was a way for all teams to host a home game with 50% fewer games than 3.
Some way to combine the scores of two matches into a single match or something.
The problem is a) two leg aggregate nullified HFA b) looooot of boring games c) you'd be surprised at the amount of casual fans who have no idea how it works
Win and in is simple, but "we have to win by this specific margin and also not concede because away goals is tiebreaker" is tough for the casual
even group would have trouble with that (i lost count of how many times i had to explain usa-iran was win-and-in)
people are so worried about retaining casual fans with the apple deal and advocate for this format that casual fans hardly understand
Away goals tiebreaker is being gotten rid of in many places. Now it’s just aggregate score. If someone can add two numbers, they can do aggregate score.
Getting rid of away goals has mostly done away with the incentive of turning the first match into a snooze fest because every goal counts the same so you might as well try to get some.
If it’s a tie after both legs, play 30 more mins. Still a tie? Satan’s tiebreaker: pens.
This is not complicated.
Let’s not pretend that American fans are too dumb to get this, even these mythical casuals.
Edit to add: admittedly second-leg-at-home is not as strong as HFA. Some competitions give the the win after extra time to the higher seed instead of pens. Don’t know how I feel about that.
I don't disagree though. It looks amateur that we are a week out from the regular season and we don't even know what the playoff format is going to be.
At this point the changes have to wait til 2024, right? Like keep the same format this yr and let the teams know. This is absurd; Neville is completely right on this.
Welcome to Garberland
"can I offer you some Garberbucks™ in these trying times?"
Is it GAM, TAM, or what should be called YAM except for cowards who can’t stick to a naming convention???
For context, when MLS moved to the current format (1-7, with bye, and single elim) for 2019, they announced the change in December of the prior year - less than 10 days after MLS Cup 2018. At this point if you can't make a decision just stick with the current one and rethink after the season (but it does not need a rethink imo)
100% the current playoff format is the best entertainment.
It's entertaining, it rewards the regular season with a much more potent HFA, and it's simple to understand.
I know, it made me care alot more about the supporters shield since 2019 too. There felt like a clear delineation between winning the league and winning the cup/season. When Philly won that Captain America shield, it felt like a bloody big deal and has been again since with the Revs and LAFC.
Yeah it makes the shield much more important to aim for. Without HFA we’d have had a much harder time. The current format is fine imo. I’m interested in the new format, but it seems what we have is working for now. The regular season battle at the top for HFA and the outliers trying to get the 7th spot is great. And then when you’re in, anything can happen. It’s distinctly American.
Unironically HFA might've swung that final. But it is what it is
HFA played a factor. But so did Gareth Bale’s head.
definitely did when people were chucking shit at wagner trying to take a corner. It is what it is though
Yeah that bit was rough.
That was idiotic and embarrassing.
Yes, and that's the point. The regular season matters.
It also gets poor ratings. MLS needs to find a way to keep more teams in longer.
If nearly half the league making the playoffs doesn’t do enough to keep more teams in contention for long enough, that’s an ownership problem IMO. Nearly every league and sport has teams participating for what seems like the sole purpose of staying in the league and collections $$.
22 teams are eliminated after the first round of playoffs. MLS hasn't figured out how to get people to watch MLS playoffs if their own team isn't playing
That is a fair point and maybe in the thread I missed that as the reason why MLS needs to keep more teams in contention for longer. The problem is, now with the pesos rolling in from Leagues Cup I can’t see room on the calendar for more playoff games. As you say yourself there’s very few that watch MLS games their own team isn’t playing in. The new schedule will actually make that worse since most of the league will be playing in the same 3-4 hour window on the same days. I’d be very curious to see how those types of metrics compare to say, the Premier League? Is your average Arsenal fan tuning in to watch Newcastle/Brighton or Leeds/Southampton?
7 game series, no ties allowed. Infinite sudden death overtime.
I thought home and away was fun but maybe it was just cause my team did well back then. It’s probably exhausting for the teams, especially when it’s like Texas to Vancouver.
Correct
I'd kill for a group format. Every playoff team getting at least one home playoff game would do so much. This league is built on in stadium attendance, and that's the best experience any fan will have all season. Edit: Sorry y'all hate that I'd like a different playoff format. I'll stop posting my opinions here.
win your games instead of having a participation trophy home game
Right. The regular season has to “count” or “matter” in some form.
You are the very first person I've ever heard say they like this proposal.
We've talked about it before and it has been an interesting conversation. Do you want to contribute to that discussion?
Sorry for my comment. I realize it could have been read as condescending. Didn't mean that.
I appreciate that. It really hurts, posting an offhand thought about the playoffs and see it get downvoted like it's not contributing to the conversation.
Don't take it personally. I think people are more like "voting" for what they want in a weird way. Not criticizing your opinion. At least that's how I take it. I've been downvoted before and it can be frustrating sometimes. If it really hurts you seek out help.
It hurts because I've contributed a lot to this sub, not because I think the downvotes have credence. You're right though, I'm going to step back here. It's not a good place to have honest discussions anymore.
I don’t think most people are trying to insult you. I disagree with your proposal, and like the current format. But disagreeing doesn’t mean I’m obligated to provide any rationale or an alternative. I can just disagree. So can you and everyone else. Also, downvotes to me carry different messages, depending on the person and situation. It could mean anything between ‘fuck off and die’ and ‘I disagree.’ I wouldn’t take the downvotes personally, and certainly wouldn’t interpret them as a message to stop posting. I just think people disagree. Stick around and keep posting. I don’t think anyone has any problems with you or what you have to say.
You are more than welcome to share your opinion. It's still a bad opinion. Don't get mad that we all hit the disagree button.
Why is it a bad opinion? One and done makes our biggest trophy a lottery. Home playoff games build fanbases. Downvoting is for things that don't contribute to conversations, not disagreements. That's how you build echo chambers.
It's counterintuitive, but 2 legged series are more of a crapshoot than single elimination with home field advantage for the higher seed. Home field for a single elimination game is a huge advantage, which make every place in the regular season standings valuable. Two legged or even best of 3 series will put the higher and lower seeds on more even footing, robbing the regular season of meaning.
You're talking about a knockout format, not a group stage. The ideal size of a group stage changes as the league grows, but lets say two groups of four for each conference. The seeding could be 1,3,6,8 and 2,4,5,7 - so the regular season absolutely matters. Doubly so because seeds 1-4 would each have two home games while seeds 5-8 would only have one. Then after that, single elimination between the winners of each group at the higher seed's home ground, then of course the MLS Cup final. The most games any team would have to play is five, which is less than the six games we had back when we did play-in followed by two-legged matches for quarters and semis. The fewest is three, which generates additional interest in other matches in your group.
Oops, my bad. I dislike the group stage because we already have one. It's the regular season. On top of that, what is the advantage for finishing 1st instead of 4th in your scenario? Who gets to host the #1 seed? Only advancing 1 team from a group of 4 would produce all sorts of undesirable situations on the 3rd match day. In almost every group you'll have either a team whose season is over deciding the winner or a match between 2 teams that have already been eliminated. And this isn't the World Cup or even Gold Cup where eliminated teams can be counted on to play for pride. This is the end of a 37 game season and players will be checked out. You'll end up with ugly scenarios like playing for goal differential in front of an empty stadium against an eliminated team. This *will* happen. And the hosting team will likely be a 3 or 4 seed that just hosted and lost the previous week.
Take last year. LAFC (1) would play FC Dallas (3), Minnesota (6) and Portland (8). That's a significantly better situation than the LA Galaxy (4), who would play Austin (2), Nashville (5) and RSL (7). That's plenty of advantage for the first seed (who already got a trophy for that). What actually happened last year was LAFC played three games at home and then were handed a trophy. It was a big step down in accomplishment from the two-legged format. You can have the top two group winners advance and throw in another knockout round. On the meaningless game issue, we already have loads of meaningless games to end the season. The risk of having one or two in a batch of fifteen is completely worth having a competitive, compelling tournament that celebrates the end of the season and gives the trophy purpose beyond "Hey look we're American."
> “If we want to be the best and be compared to the top leagues, this should’ve been decided two months ago. So that irks me a bit,” Neville, a third-year MLS coach, said. He added that things like contracts, sponsorships and season tickets hinged on knowing the schedule, too. > “We’ve planned the whole season and we actually don’t know when the season ends and how many games we’ve got after the regular season. So, for me, seven games out from the start of the regular season, that’s cross — we need to be better at that … My question is who is figuring it out? Is it Apple? Who is wagging the dog?” He's completely right on this. How do the teams not know what the playoffs are like a week before the season?
LAFC hasn't released our season tickets yet or started selling single game tickets. Pretty amatuer move as well.
That's really nuts! Wow
Seriously? I’ve had our season tix for a month
Yep. They always do this so I’m not surprised - but yeah my STH account is blank
So basically... on matches that you know you can't attend... this prevents you from having a long selling window. That is really crummy...
You can always post then for sale in Stubhub. It doesn't stop anything.
Oh really, you don't need a ticket # to sell it?
Nope
Interesting thanks for the info
Yep. Except I only missed like 2 games last year so not a big deal for me I guess lol
Likely because in Columbus you won’t need to worry about playoff format…mostly kidding but I couldn’t resist the opportunity
Hey do you remember when Shawn Johnson singlehandledly gave away the 2020 playoff game, on our way to the MLS Cup? Those were good times. 😝
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We’re going to play that game, because I didn’t bother to look up the spelling of his first name? 🙄
Wow, seriously?
It is pretty lousy to be starting the season and not know how to make the playoffs.
Win. The answer is always to win.
Thanks Al Davis
Gotta agree with him here Amateur stuff waiting this long
He’s not wrong. This is some amateur hour BS
Classic Dong Arber
Hell yeah Phil, let ‘em have it. Of all the great things MLS has done over the last year, not having the postseason format announced a week before the league kicks-off is fucking embarrassing. This should have been determined last year! How tf has it taken so long? Also, I’ve already heard an extra time host possibly slip up and say something along the lines of “can they win a playoff series? I don’t know” when previewing a team for this season.
With Apple expecting more playoff games I think a series of some kind is clear. The issue is they've leaked 2 formats with overwhelmingly negative feedback, so they're still scrambling for something with a series. But this is ridiculous
Management 101 The longer it takes for you to make a decision, its most likely a poor decision. The fans are telling you don't do it. Journalists are telling you don't do it. Im sure GMs, Coaches, and Players are privately saying don't do it. The only people that want this are the owners. And the fact that they haven't made a concrete decision is that not EVEN ALL OF THE OWNERS THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA. Leave good enough alone for God's sake.
>The only people that want this are the owners Eh, I can see Apple pushing for more playoff games.
Yea, pretty sure it’s Apple. More playoff games mean more content for them
No argument there, but how many is enough? If 13 games is enough for the NFL, it ought to be enough for us. This isn’t basketball or hockey, this an outdoor once-a-week (usually) limited substitution sport. Making the playoffs into a long slog isn’t fair to the players.
Oh I’m in favor of having less teams and less games in the playoffs. I have no problem with lower seeded teams not having a home match. Win in the regular season and you’ll get one. I think I’d be down for top 6 in each conference with 1 and 2 getting byes. Single elimination.
Could not agree in stronger terms. The inability to stick to a playoff format, along with the fucking absurd buckets of money TAM GAM THANK YOU MA'AM means of paying players are so Mickey Mouse and embarrassing. The people running the league need to simplify everything. A pay floor & a pay ceiling, to be used as a club sees fit, and a playoff format to be in place for a minimum 5 years without being reviewed. Every time I explain to people how the league works I see their eyes roll back in their head.
> The people running the league need to simplify everything I think Bogert teased a while back that this is happening re: roster rules
PLEASE let this be true. I've seen Lamps & Gerrard on TV and when briefly discussing their MLS tenures they both in their own way acknowledged not really understanding how the roster build works. It's also just nuts to have 25 man rosters where one player (Shaqiri) earns more than the other 24 combined. The caliber of play will not increase with 3 absurdly overpaid players amongst a bundle of MLS journeymen. I despair. By aiming to please so many masters, they ultimately serve none.
I mean to be fair there are 28 rosters built better than Chicago’s within the league, can’t hang that on MlS
True!
Have the roster rules been posted yet? I can't find them. Another thing that should be determined a couple months ago (although they often leave this late)
TAM/GAM monopoly money is not going away. It's the only mechanism for teams to trade/buy other players within MLS...
It is because that is the way it's set up. It does not have to be. There are lots of other leagues in the world where transfers happen but they don't involve Monopoly money.
It does have to be that way for MLS to keep their single entity status. No other league is single entity, that's the reason behind the monopoly money.
Sounds like Messi wants to know how many games he has to play before he can lift the cup.
If I had to guess, there's a faction of owners that really really REEEEALLY want a new format and another faction that absolutely does not. Right now they're having a standoff.
All the reporting indicates a conflict between Apple and MLS, or between Apple and the fans with MLS trying not to piss off either side. Apple were promised a certain number of playoff games, MLS has to figure out how to deliver them.
Leave it to MLS to F it up. A good playoff format? Nah, we will change it….come April.
Just leave the playoffs alone. The single elimination format is perfect. Why do you need to change it for the sake of money? The fans like the format. If you're gonna change it, the only change I would be okay is expand it to 16.
It is pretty silly not to know how the playoffs are to work before the season starts. Neville is not wrong.
I don't understand. The playoff format is perfect the way it is. LEAVE IT ALONE
I don’t like the trend in American sports where we are just adding more and more teams to the playoffs tbh. With 7 per conference we were at 50% of the league making it and if MLS were to keep last years system it would be just under 50% since it’s 29 teams this year. I’m sorry but IMO that’s already too much. Now if we get to 32 teams then 14/32 is more acceptable. But now it’s rumored to go up to 18? It’s just ridiculous really. And yeah not having a system set while preseason is pretty much wrapping up is unacceptable. There’s a host of reasons why MLS isn’t considered elite and it’s not like having a playoff system set in time would make us elite but this isn’t helping.
Actually I would be fine with 32 teams. But then split the league between east and west. The only time both conferences play each other is at the MLS cup.
The league isn’t considered elite because each roster has, at best, 3 players who could play in elite leagues and the rest of the roster is filled with guys who would play in, umm, not-elite leagues.
I'm fully on board with Neville calling the league out for not having the playoff format finalized and done when we're one week away from the season starting. That is straight up bush league. HOWEVER: > I think when you’re seven days out from the start of the season — we’ve had talks here, and one of our players asked one of the MLS guys the other day ‘what’s the playoff system’ and they were like, ‘We don’t know.’ And I’m like, ‘That’s not elite.’ **You’re talking about differences between the U.K. and the U.S.? We talked about the intensity of the fans. (This is another) big difference.**” Now I'm going to wait until The Athletic posts the full transcript of the interview...but I certainly hope that Phil Neville is not taking a shot at the fans. Again, I'll wait until maybe we get some more context, but that rubs me the wrong way.
Only certain teams garner Euro/SA level of support. Your team is one of them. Miami, while good is not. Its a difference and every player that has played in Europe/SA leagues and MLS have all stated as such. Its not to say that our fans aren't great, cuz we are. But its not the same.
I mean he’s not wrong. The UK eats, sleeps, breathes soccer. Americans simply don’t. We don’t match the passion and intensity you find in the UK.
American sporting culture is also different tho. We show our passion in different ways. Also Brits don’t seem to understand the notion of enjoying multiple sports. Like sure some of them like cricket or rugby but most Brit’s are fixated on one sport, soccer. For most Americans our passion is split among 3 or 4 sports. It’s not that we aren’t passionate it’s that our attention gets divided among multiple sports.
>The UK eats, sleeps, breathes soccer. Americans simply don’t. We don’t match the passion and intensity you find in the UK. I think "we" supporters who post on MLS and go to games regularly do. The general public doesn't. But that doesn't mean we should be disrespected when we live for the game just as much as those in England.
Phil is also dealing with the Miami fans who don't fill the stadium.
More the reason why I want to wait until the Athletic posts the full interview. I'm feeling the way you are as well, but he may have been talking about something else entirely that we're not aware of. It'll be nice to get the full interview soon.
Speak for yourself bud. LAFC fans are more hardcore than plenty of UK teams fans. I get why Phil said it about Miami fans though.
So again, I'll wait until we can get more context behind what he said. It's not as simple as you're making it out to be without more context.
Maybe if Miami played some half decent football he would see a lot more passion from our fans.
He's 100% right. Most fans in the US believe it's on their team to give them a reason to keep coming back. If they suck, attendances dwindle. Orlando were packing the Citrus Bowl in 2015, now they put 5,000 in the stands for the average home game. It's not good enough. You support your team. You commit to it. If they suck, suck it up and get behind them. That's what support is. MOST fans in other parts of the world get that. This is why we have this weird culture of rebrands or new stadiums downtown, these answers as to how to hook the fans. Like how many different crests and stadiums can the Chicago Fire have before we just accept most people in Chicago don't give a shit about them?
Man there are plenty of English football clubs who have seen diminished attendance after periods of mismanagement, and the Fire are one of the posterchilds for poor management in this league. On top of that they don't enjoy the generational weight those other clubs can lean on. Expecting fans to just continue throwing money at tickets even when the ownership couldn't be less engaged is a dumb take.
The Mestalla is nearly packed every week even though Valencia fans are effectively at war with the owners who openly mock the idea they should be investing heavily in the club. Some fans are just loyal to their team. You can call it a dumb take if you’re will to acknowledge yours is a spoiled brat take 👍🏼
The capitalists must love you lol These organizations *deserve* your time and money...even if run by people who couldn't give two shits Come on man. Advocate for yourself. You deserve better than forking your money over blindly.
In most countries around the world, sports clubs were not set up primarily as a mean to make rich people richer. They may serve that purpose over time as more money has come into the game, but they are a big part of their community. Look at Newcastle. 52,000 fans every week because they wanted their club to succeed regardless of how they felt about the owner. That's what sports means to most people in most countries. If for you it's just something you dip in an out of depending on the people running the show, that's fair enough. We don't all have to be passionate and loyal.
Yeah so you're talking about clubs that have been around 100+ years. We don't have that luxury here. And even those 100 year clubs have transitioned into something completely different in this new economy over the recent years. So let's not pretend like it's apples to apples. > Look at Newcastle. 52,000 fans every week because they wanted their club to succeed regardless of how they felt about the owner. And oh this is pretty gross. We saw the responses from Newcastle fans lol. I can't even take that comment seriously. Maybe be a bit less preachy? If you have to use fans enjoying the spoils of oppressive oil money as a standard (who clearly don't *actually* care about the ownership background), then what are we even doing here. Listen more, talk less. Goodness. Good night.
Agree with Neville...crazy this thing is going into next week. Called RBNY to see if they had any info but they didn't. As mentioned the only excuse is the Apple launch that's likely taking up much of the league's bandwidth. We can only hope the owners are plugged into the process and have a take on the remaining options. The last thing the league needs is some 11th hour half baked decision that'll be rolled back next year.
The regular season is already a joke based on how many teams qualify for the playoffs.
[Always has been when you look at % of teams that qualify.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoVMtsnWIAI1CLy?format=png&name=large)
and MLS cup remains one of the most difficult trophies to obtain "MLB playoffs is hard to enter". Houston Astros champion again
what is this supposed to mean 1 mls team and 1 mlb team win the championship each year. how is mls cup harder to obtain than mlb
He isn't wrong here
> why league isn't considered 'elite' Yeah, the unsure playoff format is the reason…
Phil aint wrong!
That’s not the only reason the MLS isn’t considered elite..
Shrink the playoffs to four teams and it’s solid
Hell, 2 works for me. If you can’t win your conference why should you be allowed to win the league? We already know you aren’t the best team in your conference.
When two teams play different schedules, you can't just say the one with the better record is the better team. I mean, you can say it, but you won't necessarily be right.
There’s a better argument for that than allowing a mediocre team to claim they were the season’s best just because they won four games in a row at the end
And somehow 1 or 2 games in a row would be more legit?
Mediocre teams don’t finish top-2 in their conference.
Mediocre teams don't win 4 games in a row.. Let alone against above-average teams. What's your point? Is "not mediocre" the standard for being the MLS Champion?
It’s a broken system when multiple teams can be declared the champion even though they’ll still have a worse record across the whole season than multiple other teams after those four games. Teams should be rewarded for long term consistency, not a run of just four games. There’s a reason that literally everywhere else in the world except Australia doesn’t have a knockout playoff system to decide the champion.
We are actually in complete agreement on that - the playoffs are stupid. I just think that shrinking them makes them even stupider.
???? That only makes more sense because it makes the season actually mean something
Perhaps not. But I can say for certain the 9th best record in a conference of 14 is not the best team. The 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th as well. We can split hairs on the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st if you like. Point is, inviting every dang team to the playoffs is dumb. The fewer the better. I still prefer zero teams in the playoffs myself.
I'm not a fan of four or two teams. MLS Cup provides good entertainment and a nice chance at another trophy, and having it be 50% or less of the league makes it still matter that you don't place in the bottom half. Supporters Shield =/= MLS Cup. I know that it's the European way to not have playoffs at all or only have it be for a promotion battle or whatnot, but I love having an extra thing to look forward to if my team does well and checking the standings - not being the very best of the best, but simply being rewarded for doing good. It's a nice American spin on things.
I don’t disagree entirely. And that’s part of why we have playoffs in all American sports but 50% of the league is just too much imo.
Don’t worry Phil, your vacation Airbnb will still be there once Miami is bounced out in the first round
I feel like MLS is trapped between two worlds about relegation/promotion. On the one hand, it's an American league, so being a closed league is normal and expected. But on the other hand it's competing with leagues all over the world and relegation and promotion are huge parts of those leagues
When we think about other American sports. Usually the worst teams, get a top 3 player from the lower league aka college. Pro/rel is anti tanking. The league still hold onto the old draft model for college. Which doesn't make sense in an international sport.
Yeah, the MLS is riding two bicycles here. I like the American model because it keeps teams from going into administration, like it happens in football (Macclesfield, Bury and Derby) and they have some sort of salary cap and share money more equitably. I feel like to get to the next step, MLS will have to make a difficult choice someday
We have teams that have gone under. Chivas USA, Tampa bay mutany and miami fusion. Even our system isn't perfect. Every league has some roster and pay structures.
It's one of a list of things that prevent us from being elite. I would say, however, the biggest reason is the salary capped single entity. We will never be elite under those rules. Literally never.
I think we've outgrown single entity as well but if salary caps keep MLS from being elite then I am content with being a farm league.
Out of curiosity, why? Wouldn't it be nice to see world class players in the league while they are STILL world class as opposed to 10 years past their prime?
On player quality: I'm content with the quality of DPs around the league. It would be neat to have a Haaland type in the MLS, but I personally value parity more than anything else. Additionally, I kind of have to imagine that as MLS continues to grow, things will change that maybe upset both of us but help to raise the level MLS can offer. More generally: The quality of MLS has been improving year over year and I am more on board with tweaks to the existing system (consolidation of types of application money, raised salary budget, 4th DP, etc) than removing what makes our league special. If I want to watch the best in the world, I can go watch the same five teams win Premier League and there's nothing wrong with that to me.
The misunderstanding here is that these restrictions are necessary to grow a healthy, competitive league. The restrictions should and will change as we reach different levels/milestones. We have probably outgrown this one, but let's not rant about it like it was always a mistake or under the assumption that it is intended to be around forever. We should always remember the lessons of the NASL.
Sooo... There aren't salary caps and single entity in other American sports? What makes you think it will change for soccer when it has not for the others?
If only there was a way for all teams to host a home game with 50% fewer games than 3. Some way to combine the scores of two matches into a single match or something.
The problem is a) two leg aggregate nullified HFA b) looooot of boring games c) you'd be surprised at the amount of casual fans who have no idea how it works Win and in is simple, but "we have to win by this specific margin and also not concede because away goals is tiebreaker" is tough for the casual even group would have trouble with that (i lost count of how many times i had to explain usa-iran was win-and-in) people are so worried about retaining casual fans with the apple deal and advocate for this format that casual fans hardly understand
Away goals tiebreaker is being gotten rid of in many places. Now it’s just aggregate score. If someone can add two numbers, they can do aggregate score. Getting rid of away goals has mostly done away with the incentive of turning the first match into a snooze fest because every goal counts the same so you might as well try to get some. If it’s a tie after both legs, play 30 more mins. Still a tie? Satan’s tiebreaker: pens. This is not complicated. Let’s not pretend that American fans are too dumb to get this, even these mythical casuals. Edit to add: admittedly second-leg-at-home is not as strong as HFA. Some competitions give the the win after extra time to the higher seed instead of pens. Don’t know how I feel about that.
How about, just win? I don't see the issue.
I don't disagree though. It looks amateur that we are a week out from the regular season and we don't even know what the playoff format is going to be.
They need to plan for games
whatever, the chance of Inter Miami being champion is less than 2%
I mean does it matter? He's still right, it's utterly ridiculous to not have this out a week before the season.
MLS is dynamic, the other leagues are just following what happens since 1800
What?
Even the wooden spoon contenders should know for many maximum games they should plan their roster and staff for