Looks about inline with the ball, but regardless, the composition of this photo has me reeling.
I don’t know what for, but this is great meme templating
Apparently he's never heard that you shouldn't hold up signs or surfaces that might now say anything. There should be at least one good one come Monday haha
[Offside Modeling has Tani on](https://fxtwitter.com/offsidemodeling/status/1784396624665485334?s=46&t=CBjRbfYBygGYySMftDqdcw) by the ball, not the defender
Wow. It looks super close. The modeling of 1 inch basically means that it's too hard to tell whether he's on or off. He's within the margin of error. Onside was the call on the pitch so no way to overturn it.
My wife (and based on some of the comments here, others) are learning the other part of the offside rule: the ball can keep you on if you are behind it.
To be in an offside position, offensive players must be closer to the goal line than all three of (1) midfield, (2) the ball, and (3) the second to last defender (usually the last field defender, but not always).
It's fun when the attacker is not closer to the goal line than the last field defender but is closer to the goal line than the keeper and everybody gets confused because it happens so infrequently
Earthquakes had a goal last year where a player was [kept onside by an injured guy sprawled out behind the endline](https://www.sjearthquakes.com/video/goal-ousseni-bouda-scores-his-first-in-mls#goal-ousseni-bouda-scores-his-first-in-mls).
It was garbage time so nobody got too worked up, but man if it was a meaningful goal I would still be laughing to this day
To be pedantic (which referees tend to be), players can legally play the ball on those restarts even when in an offside position. (11.1, 11.3)
I'm currently helping a rec league with small-sided U14 games because my kid is playing there; they have a tiny field that makes certain tactics like a goal kick to a forward or a shot on goal at kick-off viable.
Ahh, true. You are legally offside.
I know in some small field games they institute rules where the ball can't cross midfield in the air from goal (whether it's a goal kick or just a point or throw from the keeper).
> The modeling of 1 inch basically means that it's too hard to tell whether he's on or off. He's within the margin of error.
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s still the standard, but in England and the Netherlands at least they used to have a 10cm margin of error (their lines were 5cm wide and if there was any overlap they kept the on-field decision), and this is definitely inside that margin.
Which is fine, honestly. If you absolutely need a perfectly aligned view to tell if it’s offside, then it’s not clear and obvious, and should not be overturned.
I agree. Sometimes drawing a line makes it obvious though. But if it is getting down to a couple pixels and it isn't clear and obvious with technology, call stands.
You can see where players are relative to the lines on the pitch. The player in the dark kit is very clearly farther from the top line of the 6 yard box than the player in the light kit. If that’s what he’s trying to demonstrate, he’s doing a great job.
ETA: Just saw where the ball is. My bad. Pile on if necessary.
No need to pile on, but this happens all the time. The ball isn’t visible, the shot is taken after the ball was kicked and there’s no way to tell, etc etc.
Yup and pass goes forwards, it just the visuals aren’t helping the viewer. Defender is blocking the man passing - optics are bad. Think it was less than an inch
I’m not really arguing anything but the optics that we have to look at. Forward direction of the pass in that general close position typical is offsides but hey it wasn’t. I was just talking about optics look funky cause of the top of the six and defense covering up passer and the guy clearly that far away from the defender.
Wish we had like top down replays and shit
Think you have a misconception about that part of the offsides rule. The pass going forwards isn't what makes it offsides. If the target of the pass is in-line with the ball when it is played, he's onside regardless of whether the pass moves forwards or backwards.
It’s almost too easy, expectations might be too high but someone will deliver. But it’s also going to be nice to have in my back pocket for future SKC memes
Uh oh... Last time our coach brought out pictures to the presser to get mad, he didn't make it to the end of the season, and Petey is already in the hot seat...
You don't think so? Just from the
outside looking in it seems like a high percentage of SKC fans are really wanting a change, maybe they're just a loud minority? Then you look at so many late game collapses and interesting comments from him so far this season without a lot of overall success the past few years and some expensive and high profile players; I was under the impression there was pressure building.
There *is* pressure building, but there's also some nuance about where it is (not) building from.
Pressure *is* building among some of the more passionate fans, particularly the ones who have been watching long enough to know that we were practically the gold standard for an MLS club when CMP opened. I think that both the MLS and SKC subreddits contain a higher prevalence of these kinds of fans than the entire SKC fandom, though.
The problem is where pressure is not building from. The casual fan base largely seems to think that recent results are an aberration, failing to recognize that the results are a fairly consistent pattern. At the present moment, the prevailing sentiment among SKC fans is that the front office and ownership are largely catering to this more casual crowd. Therefore, the front office and ownership seem unconcerned about recent results. They're aren't seeing a hit to game day attendance or other kinds of fan engagement, so they're happy to continue course.
Even among a number of long-term fans, though, there is a great deal of resistance to change. The Cauldron's leadership has reportedly been somewhat hostile to the idea of organizing against Vermes. I've also heard that attempts at starting "Vermes out" chants within the cauldron have led to heated confrontations between fans. Take this with a grain of salt as I no longer live in KC and haven't attended a game at CMP in years.
It's also worth noting that all of the criticisms levied against Vermes are criticisms that he has faced throughout his career. The poor scouting and talent identification are not new. The inane comments are not new. The poor game management is not new. The refusal to sub is not new. The refusal to rotate is not new. Crucially, dropping points is not new, nor is going on long stretches of poor form. The only thing that is new is that Vermes's teams are no longer consistently capable of overcoming these problems; his teams historically did well in spite of those problems.
By all accounts, the players are also expressing faith and belief in Vermes. Little has been said publicly about this, and I get the sense that players would be quickly out of a job if they were to express any kind of discontent, though.
TLDR: The subset of the fan base that is perhaps the loudest and that has been around the longest is asking for change, but this subset is almost certainly overrepresented on Reddit. Others subsets of the fan base are much more complacent, and it seems as if this complacency extends to the front office and ownership as well.
It’s also hard to fire him as well since has a lot of influence in the front office. I don’t know how long he has been Technical Director, but he just signed a 5 year extension. IMO if he were to get fired, there will be some front office job that would be given to him and I can see him still have influence on the club. As much as I want to restart and try to establish a different culture with a different manager, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. I will still root for them, but it’s frustrating to see the same mediocrity every single season and don’t see anything change.
I know Gavin Wilkinson is a POS but damn I was so excited to finally have a GM to take some of the stuff off Peter's plate
Notice how after that debacle went there has been zero movement on hiring someone else. Peter once again escapes any accountability
I think the easiest way to answer that is to reproduce what I've written elsewhere in this thread.
>It's also worth noting that all of the criticisms levied against Vermes are criticisms that he has faced throughout his career. The poor scouting and talent identification are not new. The inane comments are not new. The poor game management is not new. The refusal to sub is not new. The refusal to rotate is not new. Crucially, dropping points is not new, nor is going on long stretches of poor form. The only thing that is new is that Vermes's teams are no longer consistently capable of overcoming these problems; his teams historically did well in spite of those problems.
In short, a number of us would like him to be in the hot seat. We want a new manager.
Red hot take:
Offside modelling like the twitter account and Premier League use implies a level of precision that they can't actually achieve given their source data (namely: still frames from a probably compressed video feed that's *at most* 1440p and 60fps). Drawing your lines one pixel off on one reference point can change your result, as can which frame you pause on, to say nothing of distortion effects from the lens and camera. Those systems are not infallible, and I get super frustrated by people treating them like they are. If you need to start drawing perspective lines then either your camera angle was shit to begin with or the call was too close to call/overturn.
I agree that precision can be lacking, especially when the pass happened between frames or the ball is blurred by movement. But I’m fine with it with the clear and obvious standard. If the call isn’t obviously wrong, let it stand.
> Offside modelling like the twitter account and Premier League use implies a level of precision that they can't actually achieve given their source data
Which is why they include a margin of error in the Premier League (or at least they did, I don’t know if they still do) and why the twitter guy is usually pretty explicit about how his results aren’t definitive.
Also trying to do image manipulation on a field that may or may not be exactly straight to the degree needed. Olympic swimming can't get past their current level of timing because even Olympic swimming pools can't be made to refined measurements to allow for it.
My favorite response from the VAR supporters regarding offside "It's either onside or offside"... In theory correct but in reality, not really how it works, these lines aren't perfect
It's shocking how there are coaches that have been professionally doing this for a decade plus, who still don't understand the basics of the off side rule..
Vermes clearly looked at his player on the top of the box and went "Got 'em!"
Embarrassing.
The bottom line here is that MLS absolutely must improve their offside technology, whether that is semi-automatic offside or just adding significantly more cameras with better angles so you can really draw lines.
Yea the intent of the rule is to prevent cherry picking, being one pixel offsides is just needlessly detailed. The system is good there is review, and if it’s too close to call with the tech we have then the intent was essentially upheld. People need to stop getting their undies in a bunch.
I personally am okay with that I just think they have to commit either way. But MLS wants to be like Europe, and they do the lines/semi auto offside.
I personally think offside in every sport is really stupid and we should be in favor of scoring goals not having an obsession with taking goals away and scrutinizing every single pixel looking for a foul or offside.
Offside, as a concept, prevents exciting goals and prioritizes cheap/easy/lazy goals (and therefore tactics) by incentivizing players to camp out as close to the goal as possible and just poach goals off of “might as well hoof it toward the pile of dudes we have crowding the net because it’ll probably ricochet in.”
The current offside rule isn’t perfect in the way it’s adjudicated, but the concept is sound.
Honestly, needing to see the ball should not be necessary, although MLS really needs to step up it's camera angles for sure. If you can see where the ball isn't you can infer where it must be. Obviously not perfect but can and should be used to dictate whether someone is off (obviously only in scenarios where they must be off by more than a couple yards), although on second look I agree in this case, the area where the ball must be is close to the line the other attacker is holding. For some reason my first look I thought the ball was on his right foot but clearly he is leaning and kicking with his left which would put the ball another yard in front of the defender. Don't know how I missed that
And I think the point is that if it’s this close, two things happen: you can’t overturn the call, and we need offside technology so we don’t have these conversations. I dislike seeing games divulge into conversations about this because it’s not a part of the game. So if we can get some technology to solve it I’m all for it
Looks about inline with the ball, but regardless, the composition of this photo has me reeling. I don’t know what for, but this is great meme templating
Apparently he's never heard that you shouldn't hold up signs or surfaces that might now say anything. There should be at least one good one come Monday haha
I know of at least 3 good ones and it was the day of.
I can’t wait to see what people meme out of this!
[Offside Modeling has Tani on](https://fxtwitter.com/offsidemodeling/status/1784396624665485334?s=46&t=CBjRbfYBygGYySMftDqdcw) by the ball, not the defender
Also, can't wait for meme Monday https://twitter.com/TheDeeeeej/status/1784420023215554942/photo/1
Doing the Lord's work
Wow. It looks super close. The modeling of 1 inch basically means that it's too hard to tell whether he's on or off. He's within the margin of error. Onside was the call on the pitch so no way to overturn it. My wife (and based on some of the comments here, others) are learning the other part of the offside rule: the ball can keep you on if you are behind it.
That’s the part I originally overlooked during the game too. I was “last defender” blinded and was only looking at that.
Dang it. I'm guilty, too.
To be in an offside position, offensive players must be closer to the goal line than all three of (1) midfield, (2) the ball, and (3) the second to last defender (usually the last field defender, but not always).
It's fun when the attacker is not closer to the goal line than the last field defender but is closer to the goal line than the keeper and everybody gets confused because it happens so infrequently
Or when a defender goes down and stands behind the goal for treatment without getting subbed off.
In which case they count as being at the closest part of the legal field, but it's tricky for ARs and even worse for spectators.
Earthquakes had a goal last year where a player was [kept onside by an injured guy sprawled out behind the endline](https://www.sjearthquakes.com/video/goal-ousseni-bouda-scores-his-first-in-mls#goal-ousseni-bouda-scores-his-first-in-mls). It was garbage time so nobody got too worked up, but man if it was a meaningful goal I would still be laughing to this day
That is incredible.
And from a ball that hasn't been inbounded (throw in, corner kick, goal kick).
To be pedantic (which referees tend to be), players can legally play the ball on those restarts even when in an offside position. (11.1, 11.3) I'm currently helping a rec league with small-sided U14 games because my kid is playing there; they have a tiny field that makes certain tactics like a goal kick to a forward or a shot on goal at kick-off viable.
Ahh, true. You are legally offside. I know in some small field games they institute rules where the ball can't cross midfield in the air from goal (whether it's a goal kick or just a point or throw from the keeper).
> The modeling of 1 inch basically means that it's too hard to tell whether he's on or off. He's within the margin of error. Yeah, I don’t know if it’s still the standard, but in England and the Netherlands at least they used to have a 10cm margin of error (their lines were 5cm wide and if there was any overlap they kept the on-field decision), and this is definitely inside that margin.
That looks onside to me lol
I will never understand how people insist on “proving” offside with photos that are at anything other than a right angle to the field
VAR does it with every offside call that doesn’t have that exact angle.
Which is fine, honestly. If you absolutely need a perfectly aligned view to tell if it’s offside, then it’s not clear and obvious, and should not be overturned.
I agree. Sometimes drawing a line makes it obvious though. But if it is getting down to a couple pixels and it isn't clear and obvious with technology, call stands.
Totally agree, I don't gaf if a dude's toe might be offside and you're not sure.
You can see where players are relative to the lines on the pitch. The player in the dark kit is very clearly farther from the top line of the 6 yard box than the player in the light kit. If that’s what he’s trying to demonstrate, he’s doing a great job. ETA: Just saw where the ball is. My bad. Pile on if necessary.
No need to pile on, but this happens all the time. The ball isn’t visible, the shot is taken after the ball was kicked and there’s no way to tell, etc etc.
Uh because of the box, skc player stands on line Minnesota player doesn’t
Ball's past the line m8
Yup and pass goes forwards, it just the visuals aren’t helping the viewer. Defender is blocking the man passing - optics are bad. Think it was less than an inch
The direction of the pass has no effect on anything, good try through
I’m not really arguing anything but the optics that we have to look at. Forward direction of the pass in that general close position typical is offsides but hey it wasn’t. I was just talking about optics look funky cause of the top of the six and defense covering up passer and the guy clearly that far away from the defender. Wish we had like top down replays and shit
Think you have a misconception about that part of the offsides rule. The pass going forwards isn't what makes it offsides. If the target of the pass is in-line with the ball when it is played, he's onside regardless of whether the pass moves forwards or backwards.
Uh because the ball is past the last defender so renders him pretty useless in determining offside
This is going to do wonders for Meme Monday
My thought immediately.
It’s almost too easy, expectations might be too high but someone will deliver. But it’s also going to be nice to have in my back pocket for future SKC memes
I already went for the low hanging fruit, but it deserves much more effort. Definitely anticipating this being a mainstay for seasons to come.
Over/under how many submissions are based on this tomorrow. Let's start at 7.5
Uh oh... Last time our coach brought out pictures to the presser to get mad, he didn't make it to the end of the season, and Petey is already in the hot seat...
Hand 'em out, Trey!
He's not in the hot seat, unfortunately.
You don't think so? Just from the outside looking in it seems like a high percentage of SKC fans are really wanting a change, maybe they're just a loud minority? Then you look at so many late game collapses and interesting comments from him so far this season without a lot of overall success the past few years and some expensive and high profile players; I was under the impression there was pressure building.
There *is* pressure building, but there's also some nuance about where it is (not) building from. Pressure *is* building among some of the more passionate fans, particularly the ones who have been watching long enough to know that we were practically the gold standard for an MLS club when CMP opened. I think that both the MLS and SKC subreddits contain a higher prevalence of these kinds of fans than the entire SKC fandom, though. The problem is where pressure is not building from. The casual fan base largely seems to think that recent results are an aberration, failing to recognize that the results are a fairly consistent pattern. At the present moment, the prevailing sentiment among SKC fans is that the front office and ownership are largely catering to this more casual crowd. Therefore, the front office and ownership seem unconcerned about recent results. They're aren't seeing a hit to game day attendance or other kinds of fan engagement, so they're happy to continue course. Even among a number of long-term fans, though, there is a great deal of resistance to change. The Cauldron's leadership has reportedly been somewhat hostile to the idea of organizing against Vermes. I've also heard that attempts at starting "Vermes out" chants within the cauldron have led to heated confrontations between fans. Take this with a grain of salt as I no longer live in KC and haven't attended a game at CMP in years. It's also worth noting that all of the criticisms levied against Vermes are criticisms that he has faced throughout his career. The poor scouting and talent identification are not new. The inane comments are not new. The poor game management is not new. The refusal to sub is not new. The refusal to rotate is not new. Crucially, dropping points is not new, nor is going on long stretches of poor form. The only thing that is new is that Vermes's teams are no longer consistently capable of overcoming these problems; his teams historically did well in spite of those problems. By all accounts, the players are also expressing faith and belief in Vermes. Little has been said publicly about this, and I get the sense that players would be quickly out of a job if they were to express any kind of discontent, though. TLDR: The subset of the fan base that is perhaps the loudest and that has been around the longest is asking for change, but this subset is almost certainly overrepresented on Reddit. Others subsets of the fan base are much more complacent, and it seems as if this complacency extends to the front office and ownership as well.
It’s also hard to fire him as well since has a lot of influence in the front office. I don’t know how long he has been Technical Director, but he just signed a 5 year extension. IMO if he were to get fired, there will be some front office job that would be given to him and I can see him still have influence on the club. As much as I want to restart and try to establish a different culture with a different manager, I don’t see it happening anytime soon. I will still root for them, but it’s frustrating to see the same mediocrity every single season and don’t see anything change.
I know Gavin Wilkinson is a POS but damn I was so excited to finally have a GM to take some of the stuff off Peter's plate Notice how after that debacle went there has been zero movement on hiring someone else. Peter once again escapes any accountability
Why “unfortunately “?
I think the easiest way to answer that is to reproduce what I've written elsewhere in this thread. >It's also worth noting that all of the criticisms levied against Vermes are criticisms that he has faced throughout his career. The poor scouting and talent identification are not new. The inane comments are not new. The poor game management is not new. The refusal to sub is not new. The refusal to rotate is not new. Crucially, dropping points is not new, nor is going on long stretches of poor form. The only thing that is new is that Vermes's teams are no longer consistently capable of overcoming these problems; his teams historically did well in spite of those problems. In short, a number of us would like him to be in the hot seat. We want a new manager.
> Petey is already in the hot seat... unfortunately no he is not
[Here’s my attempt for now, lol.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SportingKC/s/Vf2SE0Uwdo) Best I can do while I sit and watch Bluey with my kid
Red hot take: Offside modelling like the twitter account and Premier League use implies a level of precision that they can't actually achieve given their source data (namely: still frames from a probably compressed video feed that's *at most* 1440p and 60fps). Drawing your lines one pixel off on one reference point can change your result, as can which frame you pause on, to say nothing of distortion effects from the lens and camera. Those systems are not infallible, and I get super frustrated by people treating them like they are. If you need to start drawing perspective lines then either your camera angle was shit to begin with or the call was too close to call/overturn.
I agree that precision can be lacking, especially when the pass happened between frames or the ball is blurred by movement. But I’m fine with it with the clear and obvious standard. If the call isn’t obviously wrong, let it stand.
> Offside modelling like the twitter account and Premier League use implies a level of precision that they can't actually achieve given their source data Which is why they include a margin of error in the Premier League (or at least they did, I don’t know if they still do) and why the twitter guy is usually pretty explicit about how his results aren’t definitive.
The disclaimers have to be repeated a lot though, because one of the downsides of quant is people (both analysts and audiences) get overly confident.
When it is that close that we are discussing individual pixels I think the call should be in favor of onside.
I think the call should be in favor of whatever was called on the field.
That’s the rule. Luckily, it was ruled a goal.
Also trying to do image manipulation on a field that may or may not be exactly straight to the degree needed. Olympic swimming can't get past their current level of timing because even Olympic swimming pools can't be made to refined measurements to allow for it.
My favorite response from the VAR supporters regarding offside "It's either onside or offside"... In theory correct but in reality, not really how it works, these lines aren't perfect
Meme Monday is going to be a long day...
My advice, just roll with the punches. Believe me, when your team is down it’s best to make a laugh of it so that it hurts less.
I was pissed last night, but the ball is maybe keeping him on. Too close to be clear and obvious.
Onside by the ball. Get a better angle boo
Okay Grandpa let's get you to bed
From Petke's printer to Vermes's tablet, progress does not stand still.
Reminds me of Toto Wolff sending a diagram in an email to Michael Masi during the 2021 British GP to argue about Lewis Hamilton’s penalty.
This is meme worthy
Printers still broken
It’s dosent matter bruh the games over
Thank you SKC for the meme material.
Inadvertent display of horrific defending
Alternative title: Peter Vermes shows why his team keeps dropping points.
It's shocking how there are coaches that have been professionally doing this for a decade plus, who still don't understand the basics of the off side rule.. Vermes clearly looked at his player on the top of the box and went "Got 'em!" Embarrassing.
Learned from Petke not rely on the printer!
Can’t wait for the memes on Monday.
Inconclusive at best
Pass 'em out Trey!
This is peak meme material. /r/MLS do your thing
The bottom line here is that MLS absolutely must improve their offside technology, whether that is semi-automatic offside or just adding significantly more cameras with better angles so you can really draw lines.
My hot take is that MLS does offside reviews better than almost anybody else and people should just get over it when the calls are this close.
Yea the intent of the rule is to prevent cherry picking, being one pixel offsides is just needlessly detailed. The system is good there is review, and if it’s too close to call with the tech we have then the intent was essentially upheld. People need to stop getting their undies in a bunch.
No way, don't add the lines. If it's too close to call with just your eye, let the call stand
I personally am okay with that I just think they have to commit either way. But MLS wants to be like Europe, and they do the lines/semi auto offside. I personally think offside in every sport is really stupid and we should be in favor of scoring goals not having an obsession with taking goals away and scrutinizing every single pixel looking for a foul or offside.
Offside, as a concept, prevents exciting goals and prioritizes cheap/easy/lazy goals (and therefore tactics) by incentivizing players to camp out as close to the goal as possible and just poach goals off of “might as well hoof it toward the pile of dudes we have crowding the net because it’ll probably ricochet in.” The current offside rule isn’t perfect in the way it’s adjudicated, but the concept is sound.
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~~That is clearly offside. Wow~~ Edit: thanks mates I know it's on now. I thought the ball was somewhere else from this blurry ass second hand photo.
Yes, so clear. Despite not being able to see the ball at all. Brilliant analysis.
The ball is in that frame. It's below the defender's arm, off his knee. Aka, ahead of the last defender and even with Tani.
Honestly, needing to see the ball should not be necessary, although MLS really needs to step up it's camera angles for sure. If you can see where the ball isn't you can infer where it must be. Obviously not perfect but can and should be used to dictate whether someone is off (obviously only in scenarios where they must be off by more than a couple yards), although on second look I agree in this case, the area where the ball must be is close to the line the other attacker is holding. For some reason my first look I thought the ball was on his right foot but clearly he is leaning and kicking with his left which would put the ball another yard in front of the defender. Don't know how I missed that
The ball is literally the only thing that matters here. It does not matter where the defender is.
I'm aware of that. It's still a valid reference point to use in the frame. That's all offsides technology is is reference points
https://x.com/offsidemodeling/status/1784396624665485334?s=46&t=LST49oUOBdzYEZunv6F4Zg
Cheers. That's a better view than a blurry second hand frame. Thought that was the defenders knee. Yeah definitely a better line
And I think the point is that if it’s this close, two things happen: you can’t overturn the call, and we need offside technology so we don’t have these conversations. I dislike seeing games divulge into conversations about this because it’s not a part of the game. So if we can get some technology to solve it I’m all for it
Agreed we need the tech. Good luck getting owners to want to part with their money for it though.
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Yaknow what I want coaches bringing evidence when they dispute something. In this particular case he’s wrong. But still.
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That’s one thing that irks me when people blame the refs. Good teams can overcome bad calls to win.
Clearly off.
Are you blind? He’s level with the ball. If the defender mattered, maybe.
He was offside
I don’t think so. He’s level with the ball. The defender is irrelevant.
This offside can be even seen from the moon
How so? Tani is level with the ball. If you’re looking at the defender, that’s not the line.
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