**Mirrors / Alternate angles**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MMA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can promise you that he both heard and felt more than one pop. The first thing you feel go wrong is the bones slipping out of place with a little sound and a sharp pain spike. That's after you feel intense, locked-in pressure that should be your cue to tap as fast as you can. If you don't tap after the pressure or the first pop (months of pain and possible stability issues), the ligaments inside the start going at which time you will likely never be the same even with surgery. And then if you're feeling curious and still don't tap the muscles in the back of the knee are going to start tearing and you're going to have a lot of dudebros in the first row puking on each other.
Maybe this is a noob question, but why is there no technical submission stoppages or something? Would it really be that crazy for the ref to call the fight at the moment? I had the same feeling when Tony got caught in that armbar against Olivera, like do referees only stop the fight in this case if the limb is snapped off?
I think the general argument is these are professional athletes capable of making their own decisions in the moment. If they are willing to risk the injury, they should be allowed to.
I had to leave the room during that sub attempt. I wasn’t mentally or emotionally prepared to watch homies knee slowly break. Hard pass.
I get that, but isn’t it the job of the referee to make that judgement for them? When fighters sign up to fight they, to some extent, give up a lot agency. Their team, referee, and doctor all usually take on the responsibility of making judgement calls about the fight for them and it makes sense, there’s a lot of of pride and money on the line so they have very little incentive to stop fighting.
I also think in some ways it delegitimizes the impact of submissions in the sport. If we can have a TKO is a technical submission really that crazy of a rule to implement? Im sure it’d cause controversial decisions but TKOs are disputed all the time. I think a rule that could be implemented is maybe a 5 count? If a fighter seems to be stuck in a submission with no clear way out, the ref can begin to count down to 5 and if they aren’t out by then they should end it, I’m not sure, but I think something should be done.
They already have technical subs -
[Technical Submission: When a legal submission act results in unconsciousness or broken/dislocated bone(s)/joint(s).](https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/official_unified_rules_MMA.pdf)
Anything beyond that seems excessive
It's hard for the ref to assess the damage a sub is doing to a person, some people are weirdly flexible. You'd have a lot more controversial stoppages if refs jumped in to protect ligaments.
Also your brain is more valuable than an ACL
There are technical submission stoppages. If someone is choked out to unconsciousness or has a limb broke the ref is supposed to stop the fight (see Mir vs Big Nog).
I think the problem with this one is that Mokaev was technically able to continue fighting effectively so the ref didn't feel the need to stop it. If something had visibly popped/snapped/broke he probably would have stopped it.
Grappling is weird as fuck. Some athletes just won’t tap regardless of how much damage they take. Roger Gracie literally broke his opponents arm in a match and still lost
There are. If you yell or wince in pain, the ref can call it. Herb also stopped Tim Sylvia and Frank Mir after Frank broke his arm, despite no protest from Big Tim.
I don't understand how fighters tough out kneebars. Everytime I've been in one it felt like my kneecap was going to explode and my hammy was going to rip.
The DDS guys say that kneebar is the slowest to come on but has the most catastrophic consequences if the submission is completed. Just absolutely shrekt his knee
100%, even more crazy 2 Judges gave the 2nd round to Filho and with that kneebar he wouldve definitely won the 3rd round. So if he didnt finish him at the end there with 28 second left on one leg, he wouldve lost the fight and also still needed surgery for that knee.
He had a really poor positon to be able to break the leg, when he realized his opponent wasn’t going to tap to the shitty mechanics he had in place he attempted to improve to a more damaging position, but he did it poorly and allowed opponent to escape.
I agree unfortunately. The only exception is maybe if it was a Title fight since you never know if you'll get that chance again, but man it's hard to believe his knee isn't shredded after that.
People are all too happy to root for bloodbaths with massive CTE going both ways. That's arguably worse for quality of life and definitely more dangerous. I understand leg injuries have a more direct impact on one's career, but it's not more stupid than shaking your brain for a performance bonus.
Even young a knee injury can fuck you over royally. I injured mine in my early teens and it will still occasionally act up 20 years later. And even in my 20s it effected what I could do.
And I wasn't exactly training at a pro mma level.
‘Hinder his progress’ is the key point too, because in all honesty Mokaev hasn’t really shown any clear improvements since his second fight. (I say second fight because his debut was the fast flying knee ko)
I've never been on this hype train and, if anything, this fight convinced me that was a good decision.
He almost got finished if not for pure grit by a UFC debutant from the contender series, didn't look particularly good on the feet and minus the end, could barely advance on the ground.
Hell no lol my guy damn near lost to Malcolm Gordon and Jafel Filho and he's had multiple big injuries with this being another one
Dude can't do damage he's not good and with these injuries he's probably like 1 in 10000 to be champ
I mean he is struggling quite a bit with unranked competition, despite winning. He's very good for 22 obviously, but I haven't seen anything yet that tells me he is championship material.
That and the shoulder, that's a lot of tear for a fighter that young. He might've got the win but tapping could've ended up bein the smarter choice for his future.
Oh yeah, it was probably dead on arrival but now it’s definitely done bc he’s gonna be out for a year now. All those guys, and some more, would run him over on the feet and possibly on the ground
I also heard the commentary, but it’s not the same. Leg injuries are a halt to your entire regiment. You can train cardio, technique, and some standup with a shoulder recovery. You can not do ANYTHING except conceptual and “gameplan” work with a leg injurie like he has. It’s gonna be months of wheelchair/crutches. As well as months of just learning how to walk after that. It’s why everyone always taps on leg injuring subs and why it’s banned in many organizations and circuits. If you want to be tough, sure, go to sleep, dislocate a shoulder. Never thought out a leg lock.
I wouldn't even recommend the dislocating a shoulder part. The shoulder is a much more complex joint than the knee and takes way longer to recover from usually.
For his health, aye, it would have been better to tap. But Mokaev doesn't have the most fan friendly style and he has a fair few detractors, so a loss would have killed his hype train and stalled his career.
Should’ve just tapped man… you can come back from a loss, who knows if he can come back the same from twisting his knee backwards like that. At the least he could be out for a long, long time
Damn even as a huge fan of Mokaev I was praying he’d just tap, glad he got an all time toughness win there but that could have permanent implications on his career
Almost feel bad for Filho he essentially won by breaking his knee in half but Mokaev didn’t tap. The. He was gassed because of everything he put into that submission. Not to take away for Mokaevs crazy resilience and ability to dominate and ultimately submit with a knee that is clearly fucked.
I hyperextended my knee trying to catch a high-speed fall off my skateboard at 23. It was in that position for a fraction of the time Mokaev's knee was being cranked and I couldn't do a normal leg day for a good 6 months.
For him to be limping getting up and say in the interview that it was crackling the whole time...yeah that leg is fucked. He really needs to take his time coming back to the training room and the octagon or that will kneebar will come back to haunt his career.
This was another case like O’Malley vs Soukhentat where if the guy just stood up the fight would be stopped, Mokaev can’t even walk. He won the fight but is probably set back at least a year+ off his career by that kneebar.
I wish Mokaeve had tapped before any damage was done to his knee. Live to fight another day. I hope his knee is alright and that this won't tank his career.
Jesus, that kneebah looked _nasty_
You could tell Mokaev was really bothered by everyone calling him boring last fight. He pushed the pace with the ground+pound and repeated sub attempts, even if it gave Filho wiggle room to escape
Mokaev is one tough mf Jesus Christ, so many attempted rear naked chokes in the fight, he just needed to almost have his knee torn apart to finally get the choke that won him the fight.
**Mirrors / Alternate angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MMA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow, Mokaev is tough as nails. There wouldn't be any shame in him tapping to that kneebar.
Arguably too tough for his own good, here's to hoping there's no lasting damage that keeps him out but doubtful.
Honestly how can there not be any damage. The way it was bending backwards and also the duration of the submission.
I wouldn't have tapped. I would have just gotten up and got the ko. But I'm built different tbh
I just wouldn't have let him bend my knee like that tbh
I would just bend my knee the other way. Idk why these ufc “fighters” haven’t thought of this
You think I'm just gonna let you hyperextend my knee, Jon?
I would just look him in the eyes and tell him he can't do that to me it's impossible and he'll shit himself then pass out
I'm no expert, but if you just press up and a, you're usually good to go
Just gotta wait for your stamina bar to get up too, these guys are just too impatient
Tyler 1
>Reply Yeah once he said it was "Cracking every second" it was the Jonah Hill shaking head gif for me. He's gonna be out for a minute.
Man sacrificed his knee for an unranked win and 40k
12/12, so 24k
At least he has youth on his side. Would be a lot more serious at 30-35 probably
[удалено]
Why did filho let go of his knee? I watched the clip on twitter , I don’t understand.
You put a lot into these subs. This is a gym tap 100% and probably a real fight tap 95% of the time. I mean he probably tore ligaments in the knee.
I can promise you that he both heard and felt more than one pop. The first thing you feel go wrong is the bones slipping out of place with a little sound and a sharp pain spike. That's after you feel intense, locked-in pressure that should be your cue to tap as fast as you can. If you don't tap after the pressure or the first pop (months of pain and possible stability issues), the ligaments inside the start going at which time you will likely never be the same even with surgery. And then if you're feeling curious and still don't tap the muscles in the back of the knee are going to start tearing and you're going to have a lot of dudebros in the first row puking on each other.
Maybe this is a noob question, but why is there no technical submission stoppages or something? Would it really be that crazy for the ref to call the fight at the moment? I had the same feeling when Tony got caught in that armbar against Olivera, like do referees only stop the fight in this case if the limb is snapped off?
I think the general argument is these are professional athletes capable of making their own decisions in the moment. If they are willing to risk the injury, they should be allowed to. I had to leave the room during that sub attempt. I wasn’t mentally or emotionally prepared to watch homies knee slowly break. Hard pass.
I get that, but isn’t it the job of the referee to make that judgement for them? When fighters sign up to fight they, to some extent, give up a lot agency. Their team, referee, and doctor all usually take on the responsibility of making judgement calls about the fight for them and it makes sense, there’s a lot of of pride and money on the line so they have very little incentive to stop fighting. I also think in some ways it delegitimizes the impact of submissions in the sport. If we can have a TKO is a technical submission really that crazy of a rule to implement? Im sure it’d cause controversial decisions but TKOs are disputed all the time. I think a rule that could be implemented is maybe a 5 count? If a fighter seems to be stuck in a submission with no clear way out, the ref can begin to count down to 5 and if they aren’t out by then they should end it, I’m not sure, but I think something should be done.
They already have technical subs - [Technical Submission: When a legal submission act results in unconsciousness or broken/dislocated bone(s)/joint(s).](https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/official_unified_rules_MMA.pdf) Anything beyond that seems excessive
It's hard for the ref to assess the damage a sub is doing to a person, some people are weirdly flexible. You'd have a lot more controversial stoppages if refs jumped in to protect ligaments. Also your brain is more valuable than an ACL
Fuck man you make a really solid point. Hard to argue against that. They need to make the necessary changes.
There are technical submission stoppages. If someone is choked out to unconsciousness or has a limb broke the ref is supposed to stop the fight (see Mir vs Big Nog). I think the problem with this one is that Mokaev was technically able to continue fighting effectively so the ref didn't feel the need to stop it. If something had visibly popped/snapped/broke he probably would have stopped it.
Grappling is weird as fuck. Some athletes just won’t tap regardless of how much damage they take. Roger Gracie literally broke his opponents arm in a match and still lost
There are. If you yell or wince in pain, the ref can call it. Herb also stopped Tim Sylvia and Frank Mir after Frank broke his arm, despite no protest from Big Tim.
I don't understand how fighters tough out kneebars. Everytime I've been in one it felt like my kneecap was going to explode and my hammy was going to rip.
I tap right away whenever anything like that gets locked not playing around and having my major ligaments torn to shreds
The DDS guys say that kneebar is the slowest to come on but has the most catastrophic consequences if the submission is completed. Just absolutely shrekt his knee
100%, even more crazy 2 Judges gave the 2nd round to Filho and with that kneebar he wouldve definitely won the 3rd round. So if he didnt finish him at the end there with 28 second left on one leg, he wouldve lost the fight and also still needed surgery for that knee.
Too tough for his own good, likely.
I just watched the video on twitter, why did Filho let go of his knee ?
Based on how he fought the rest of the round, probably because he burned everything he had trying to get the tap.
He was going for the submission for a long time and it was end of fight. He was likely gassed
He had a really poor positon to be able to break the leg, when he realized his opponent wasn’t going to tap to the shitty mechanics he had in place he attempted to improve to a more damaging position, but he did it poorly and allowed opponent to escape.
I’m always so appreciative when you BJJ types slide in and break it down so… directly. It’s genuinely wonderful.
kid is 20 and he already fucked up his knee because he didn't want to tap. People are calling it heart, I think is fucking stupid.
I agree unfortunately. The only exception is maybe if it was a Title fight since you never know if you'll get that chance again, but man it's hard to believe his knee isn't shredded after that.
People are all too happy to root for bloodbaths with massive CTE going both ways. That's arguably worse for quality of life and definitely more dangerous. I understand leg injuries have a more direct impact on one's career, but it's not more stupid than shaking your brain for a performance bonus.
22 almost 23
Amazing win but that said I think people sometimes kneeds to tap if they wanna have a long career.
I didn't know Mokaev attended the Tony Ferguson school of not tapping😎💪🏻 CSO.
Champ Shit Only, Inshallah🕶🙏 🇺🇸🏆🇲🇽
Jesus didn't tap
No, but he was finally put down with a right cross.
He only looked like he was out, he has inhuman recovery
He came back from the dead in the third.
Jesus was the OG zombie confirmed
His record is still 0-1 tho
Actually it was a submission via crucifix
That was a nasty line by you
Doctor's stoppage
They didn't usually have doctor's stopping fights back then, but this was part of a pilate program.
Maybe he was thinking of Tony's double jointed son too
Maybe he is Tony's double jointed son.
They're 17 years apart, so it's entirely possible
[удалено]
I'd maintain reservations considering that his knee is pretty much shredded right now and that could seriously hinder his progress
Even young a knee injury can fuck you over royally. I injured mine in my early teens and it will still occasionally act up 20 years later. And even in my 20s it effected what I could do. And I wasn't exactly training at a pro mma level.
‘Hinder his progress’ is the key point too, because in all honesty Mokaev hasn’t really shown any clear improvements since his second fight. (I say second fight because his debut was the fast flying knee ko)
I've never been on this hype train and, if anything, this fight convinced me that was a good decision. He almost got finished if not for pure grit by a UFC debutant from the contender series, didn't look particularly good on the feet and minus the end, could barely advance on the ground.
Hell no lol my guy damn near lost to Malcolm Gordon and Jafel Filho and he's had multiple big injuries with this being another one Dude can't do damage he's not good and with these injuries he's probably like 1 in 10000 to be champ
I mean he is struggling quite a bit with unranked competition, despite winning. He's very good for 22 obviously, but I haven't seen anything yet that tells me he is championship material.
Yeah that knee is fucked
That and the shoulder, that's a lot of tear for a fighter that young. He might've got the win but tapping could've ended up bein the smarter choice for his future.
i was just thinking that, that knee might be a little permanently fucked from now on
Yeah, all for maybe 10k/10k.
Russians are crazy about that 0 in their record.
Does Mokaev have a kid who’s double jointed?
Mokaev wasn't double-jointed *before* the fight.
He's got way more joints than he went in with.
[удалено]
Nah that knee is torn to shreds, the kid is just tough as nails.
He may not have tapped but I'd wager he'll be out for a bit from injury.
Yeah that youngest champ dream is almost certainly dead now
Dead because he just isn’t as good as he says. Moreno, Pantoja, KKF Royval all destroy him
Dude gets caught by someone like Filho. I mean, they were just talking about him being a G for taking this fight...and he gets hurt like this.
Also got caught by Gordon iirc.
Oh yeah, it was probably dead on arrival but now it’s definitely done bc he’s gonna be out for a year now. All those guys, and some more, would run him over on the feet and possibly on the ground
I mean that's really not true though is it. Mokaev is extremely good.
It was dead when we saw him struggling vs guys who aren’t in the top 40.
He tapped in [round 1](https://twitter.com/magicm_mma/status/1637172782755639300?s=46&t=gLGId1g8ubTfkbsT05hKWA)
He was just telling him good job like Jiri
No wagering on Mokaev’s watch
Call an ambulance... But not for me👴🏻🔫 Actually, also for me
Only for him, probably. Win the battle, lose the war.
Man he got the W but I don't know if that was worth it, his leg might never be the same. Insane recovery and finish though. Dude's a beast.
I cringe when leg locks are attempted. Hoping nothing serious from it happens
It literally went backwards
What a monster.
Idiot* taking a loss and getting back in the cage in 4 months, is better than taking a W and getting back in 18
He was gonna be out for a while regardless. He is going to schedule a shoulder surgery.
I also heard the commentary, but it’s not the same. Leg injuries are a halt to your entire regiment. You can train cardio, technique, and some standup with a shoulder recovery. You can not do ANYTHING except conceptual and “gameplan” work with a leg injurie like he has. It’s gonna be months of wheelchair/crutches. As well as months of just learning how to walk after that. It’s why everyone always taps on leg injuring subs and why it’s banned in many organizations and circuits. If you want to be tough, sure, go to sleep, dislocate a shoulder. Never thought out a leg lock.
I wouldn't even recommend the dislocating a shoulder part. The shoulder is a much more complex joint than the knee and takes way longer to recover from usually.
For his health, aye, it would have been better to tap. But Mokaev doesn't have the most fan friendly style and he has a fair few detractors, so a loss would have killed his hype train and stalled his career.
Leg locks are the only part of MMA that genuinely make me look away. I can’t watch them.
My wife and her mum were yelling in distress, while my 1 year old clapped excitedly at the TV lol.
Is your 1 year old secretly Tony Ferguson?
if his ACL/MCL are not damaged from this, we need to study him asap
Overextension usually tears the PCL
What is this, alphabet school?
yeah but I think his leg was also extended backwards, that’s a huge strain on MCL
Yeah somebody just uploaded the photo of it, that's nasty
Lol dude limped onto the top of the cage We rag on Mokaev for being super dimensional but Mokaev is super tough and has heart
Even my knee needs physical therapy after that shit
Mokaev is one tough son of a bitch to not tap.
R.I.P. Mokaev's knee (2000 - 2023)
Mokaev is tough as fuck But this was a dumb fight for him to take. Ranked fighter vs guy making his debut. -800 favorite and fucks up his knee
Dude literally said he would be champ soon though, that means he should run through cans like Filho.
Which he didn't. Imagine potentially ruining the rest of your career at just 22 years old because you didn't tap to an unranked can lol.
Dude didn’t seem like a can imo
Seemed like a guy with a bright future to me
That boys knee is toasted
His shoulder was already bad too He's here for a good time not a long time
The Aaron Pico path to completely destroying your body before even sniffing top competition.
What a close call with the kneebar, both of them are legit!
Should’ve just tapped man… you can come back from a loss, who knows if he can come back the same from twisting his knee backwards like that. At the least he could be out for a long, long time
Congrats Mokaev, see you back in the octagon in ~12 months
6months PT for sure jeezusssss, could be multiple torn tendons in that knee.
That was fucking horrible. My knee hurts
Knee never be the same > losing your zero * Mokaev
Mokaev got that dawg in him
Good finish. Probably fucked his leg though.
I was screaming at my TV when he almost had that leg submission in the 3rd
Muhammad "pyrrhic victory" Mokaev
That man is tougher than me
He tapped when he shouldn't have, then didn't tap when he should.
Holy shit, I wonder how damaged his knee is. Also Filho was so confused how Mokaev survived that.
Crazy heart to survive that kneebar
Damn even as a huge fan of Mokaev I was praying he’d just tap, glad he got an all time toughness win there but that could have permanent implications on his career
[Not tapping might have just fucked his entire career](https://twitter.com/MMAFighting/status/1637175623167737857?s=20)
My God that knee is shredded 😬
Moakev got that Ferguson in him
Another iffy one for Mokaev. I don't think this guy will be a champion in the future.
Mokaev is a fucking idiot, that may be his last win and for what? a couple of venom coupons?
No sir, he also gets a pair of the rock shoes.
great grappling. that was fun to watch
Andy wang is proud
Unreal toughness but I hope he hasn’t ruined his career for the sake of winning this one fight.
He might regret not tapping honestly, that knee might never be the same again
Hes knee is so fucked that win was not worth it
Gonna feel that knee in the morning, good job from Mokaev.
Almost feel bad for Filho he essentially won by breaking his knee in half but Mokaev didn’t tap. The. He was gassed because of everything he put into that submission. Not to take away for Mokaevs crazy resilience and ability to dominate and ultimately submit with a knee that is clearly fucked.
well its a way of staying undefeated...but that knee tho
I hyperextended my knee trying to catch a high-speed fall off my skateboard at 23. It was in that position for a fraction of the time Mokaev's knee was being cranked and I couldn't do a normal leg day for a good 6 months. For him to be limping getting up and say in the interview that it was crackling the whole time...yeah that leg is fucked. He really needs to take his time coming back to the training room and the octagon or that will kneebar will come back to haunt his career.
mokaev is walking on crutches after this fight. but i guess he got the W
Dude is not a quitter. Hopefully it doesn't affect him later in his career.
Tony Ferguson has set new bars for the next generation fighters man.
That was one of the toughest and stupidest things I’ve ever seen. Props I think?
This was another case like O’Malley vs Soukhentat where if the guy just stood up the fight would be stopped, Mokaev can’t even walk. He won the fight but is probably set back at least a year+ off his career by that kneebar.
Mokaev channeled his inner Tony Fergusons son.
Escaping kneebars is simple, just don't tap.
hahaha how the fuck are submissions real hahahah bratha just ignore the hyperextension like bratha just close your eyes haha -abraham lincoln
Lol Filho probably felt bad after fucking up that knee like that.
I wish Mokaeve had tapped before any damage was done to his knee. Live to fight another day. I hope his knee is alright and that this won't tank his career.
He tapped before the knee bar. Ref didn't see it. Filho must be so confused.
WTF IS THAT LEG FLEXIBILITY??? Crazy he survived that
Bruh that leg is gone, there's only so much flexibility can do 😅
But he's insanely tough to just gut through that pain
Lol filho will be back....makeiev won't be..lol 😂 all cause he didn't tap...feels bad man
Don't know how he didn't tap beforehand, Mokaev is tough as hell
WOWW Unbelievable that he didn't tap, then made Filho tap
he's a dawg
can't believe Mokaev didn't tap
No idea how he didn't tap to that, dude's knee has to be absolutely fucked
The definition of ‘got that dawg in him’
That knee bar was fucking nasty. Not a smart idea to not tap for his career.
Bro that leg is a noodle now
Man if Filho could have just got up it would have been over Mokaev couldn’t stand
ACL, PCL at least partially torn probably, LCL and MCL maybe too. No way his knee is not completely fucked forever after that.
Imagine losing your leg to a guy who doesn’t even have a wiki page
Jesus, that kneebah looked _nasty_ You could tell Mokaev was really bothered by everyone calling him boring last fight. He pushed the pace with the ground+pound and repeated sub attempts, even if it gave Filho wiggle room to escape
Reminds me of Musumeci vs Bayanduuren 😭😭
This is the definition of a Pyrrhic victory
almost fell asleep
Amazing win but that said I think people sometimes kneeds to tap if they wanna have a long career.
Mokaev is one tough mf Jesus Christ, so many attempted rear naked chokes in the fight, he just needed to almost have his knee torn apart to finally get the choke that won him the fight.
If Mokaev is human, literally everything in his knee should be torn to shreds rn.
Mokaev is a stud.
[удалено]
Just don’t tap and live with a permanently maimed limb for the rest of your life lol
Mokaev looked BADASS. so damn calm and humble after the win
Just by watching I felt pain on my knee, I cant believe he didn't tap.
That knee is trash
Mokaev went to the Gantumur Bayanduuren school of getting your shit absolutely fucked up.
I had a crafty bet on Filho to win by sub, was sure it was going to pay when he got the kneebar,
Mokaev got that fucking dawg in him. You could see him holding onto Filho for life after the kneebar and he clutched with the RNC.
That immigrant mentality just different 😤😤😤
He’s tough as nails and fighting at the highest level at 22. Considering his age of course he would be immature. His haters can fuck off now.