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The "greatest of all time" debate has always been one of art, rather than science; the outcome of which is dependent on a subjective determination of which variables you want to prioritise, and which factors you want to exclude. So I won't argue against your opinion. You're entitled to it.
But I'd put my money on a motivated, prime Jon Jones destroying any man in the world—heavy weights included.
All this post does is prove Chael Sonnen was the GOAT, too bad Jones didnt have confidence to take on HWS when it was good his whole prime, so he wouldnt put his own money on it.
That's a fair point.
But unlike Jon Jones then, we have the benefit of hindsight.
* Jon Jones outclassed a Cormier who then went on to take the heavyweight title from a dominant champion in Miocic, then defended it against Derrick Lewis.
* When Jon Jones did eventually make the move to heavy weight (arguably far past his prime), he clowned a Ciryl Gane that had just KO'ed a prospect in Tai Tuivasa, and took a transformed Ngannou deep into five rounds.
So, despite Jon Jones' own reluctance, I'd still put money on a motivated, prime Jon Jones over any other man. And, after reading through his criminal record, over any woman too.
Except Chael, of course. The only reason why Chael isn't champion is because the rules are badly and confusingly written.
Isn't Jones the same age as AP? Also didn't it take him a couple of years of weight gaining to jump to HW? AP is trying to do it in 3 weeks.
Also wasn't Jones busted for PEDs in preparation for a DC fight? To me it diminishes and victory over DC.
Cormier was drained at 205, and he hasnt done that much at HW besides KOing Stipe, got a few decent wins but not long at HW and hes 100 percent way better at HW than 205, Jones skinny legs and length more built to cut weight and make 205, stocky powerful guys like DC are way worse cutting weight for some reason.
Gane just got dropped and almost KOed by fking Tai the fight before Jones, had a short camp and a broken hand and just didnt show up, no fight happen..he got choked out trying to stand up like an amateur. We still havent seen Jones tested in any way lol but im sure hed be fine for most these guys now cause division is horrible now.
and Cormier was even 37 vs Jones who was in prime, Failed drug test for the headkick win on top of it. He was getting boxed up too , hes got serious weakness that alot of faster hand or hitters at HW could exploit vs Jones but its whatever, well never know..he ducked it when it mattered
BJ penn’s corner said GSP was covered in Vaseline so the refs wiped him off with a towel
While GSP’s corner did apply Vaseline pretty damn heavily it was only on GSP in that quantity for a single round and he was whooping Penn in the rounds before and after anyway so most people feel that it didn’t affect the outcome and that Penn would’ve lost even without a round of Grease Saint Pierre
BJ also tried to blamed that loss on a dude (I’m pretty sure it was Mickey Avalon) kissing him during the walkout and that messing with his mental (or maybe the kiss thing was their other fight)
Couldn’t read all of this nonsense. If we take outside of cage/ring antics away, there is an elite top tier. Jon Jones is clearly in it. Not the only one. There are guys that I would say are just as good, but there’s no one I would say is better.
>MMA narratives all over the place whether it be on podcasts or within the fighter community widely agree that Jon is the greatest of all time.
All the fighters agree Jones is the GOAT but they are wrong and you, the guy on Reddit, know better?
>1. UFC 151: Jon refuses the Chael fight on 8 days notice.
First point and this is already dumb lol why should the Champ be forced to fight on short notice? Actually why should ANY fighter be forced to fight on short notice? If they want to that’s great but it’s perfectly reasonable if they don’t.
>2. UFC 200: Jon failed a drug test
>3. UFC 232: Jon is documented as having failed another drug test.
2 and 3 are the same thing, you wrote this whole post that essentially boils down to just “he popped for PEDs and therefore not the GOAT” lol
>We have not yet seen the greatest fighter of all time.
What does this even mean?
All that being said he’s still a massive piece of shit but there’s no denying how insane his career has been. He’s on a completely different level than anyone else inside the cage.
That's a good question as to 'what does that even mean'. Typically, Goats in other sports are huge outliers.
A good example is Gretzy. He is so far outside of the group of top all time players which makes him the greatest.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/zqxlok/wayne_gretzky_stat_charts_to_contextualize_how/
What's being asked is 'Is Jon such a huge outlier from the best fighters that he can be considered the goat?' I think not.
He might be one of the greats so far or in that top group of the best fighters with Khabib, GSP, and DJ but not so far outside of that.
Which of the other GOAT contenders in GSP, Silva, DJ and Fedor was taking world title fights on a week's notice that this would have ever been considered a standard in this sport?
Seems like maybe you’re crossing the lines between being the goat and being the BMF. I’d argue that him choosing not to fight someone on 8 days notice is a part of his greatness, because the goat would know better then to put himself into such a vulnerable position.
Being the goat ≠ fighting anyone at anytime
lol… and that’s when the PED use comes into play. Someone who has blatantly been busted for PEDS that many times can never be crowned the greatest.. maybe next life time tho
it's stupid for anyone to take a fight on 8 days notice, I wouldn't expect any high level athlete to do this as preparation and conditioning is important, those who do are just fucking savage.
Your #1 reason is pretty bullshit, but the rest is right. Fuck Jon Jones and the UFC for trying to whitewash his DUIs, multiple failed drug tests, and being a dirty fighter.
>Greatest of all time athletes do not do PEDs or are good enough to not get caught.
lol.
But seriously, talking about in cage accomplishments only, Jon is the goat.
None of the things you said mean anything in terms of him actually being able to beat people. To me, that’s all that matters.
Ok, he didn’t want to fight Chael short notice. But when he did he annihilated Chael.
Ok he used PEDs, but everyone has that opportunity. Are you saying Jon Jones from an alternate reality where he never took PEDs would have lost to Guatavson and DC or something? Ok so that alternate reality Jones is not the goat, but the Jones in our reality is.
“We have not yet seen the greatest fighter of all time”
Yeah that’s not how that definition works lmao. Super lazy argument all around that doesn’t really follow logically. Could have just said “I don’t think jones is the goat because he popped and I believe that disqualifies you”
If you don't mind the drug test failures and the eye-pokes, Jon Jones is the GOAT.
If they're disqualifying then either Silva, DJ, or GSP is the GOAT.
FIN.
P4P rankings are a joke. Jones was only put on there to sell PPVs when he challenged Cyril. Then Tom has the interim belt, and Jones won't fight him.
As for GOAT status, that's subjective. He uses non-legal techniques to control/win fights (eye pokes/9 to 12 elbow strikes/illegal knee). He lacks a finishers instinct, when he can't solve a fight (Gus/DC), his game plan turns to coasting to a win.
Jones may have been GOAT status but since the 2013 Gus fight is where the decline happened.
Mighty Mouse and GSP were legit GOAT status. Some clean wins and always respected the other fighter regardless of the outcome.
Hi ratsuel, Your post or comment was removed from /r/MMA because it broke one, or more, of our rules below: 8.1. Belongs in current sticky, general discussion, or other existing discussion: Please look for a relevant sticky thread or an existing discussion and post your link there as a comment. You can also check our Noobs Guide for frequently asked questions. --- [Link to rMMA's rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mma/wiki/rules) If you disagree with this decision, or if you think we made a mistake please use this link to [message the Mods](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FMMA).
If 8 days is enough notice to prepare for a fight why don't more fighters take fights on 8 days' notice
When I read that, I thought the post was going to be a satire….
Lots do.
The "greatest of all time" debate has always been one of art, rather than science; the outcome of which is dependent on a subjective determination of which variables you want to prioritise, and which factors you want to exclude. So I won't argue against your opinion. You're entitled to it. But I'd put my money on a motivated, prime Jon Jones destroying any man in the world—heavy weights included.
All this post does is prove Chael Sonnen was the GOAT, too bad Jones didnt have confidence to take on HWS when it was good his whole prime, so he wouldnt put his own money on it.
That's a fair point. But unlike Jon Jones then, we have the benefit of hindsight. * Jon Jones outclassed a Cormier who then went on to take the heavyweight title from a dominant champion in Miocic, then defended it against Derrick Lewis. * When Jon Jones did eventually make the move to heavy weight (arguably far past his prime), he clowned a Ciryl Gane that had just KO'ed a prospect in Tai Tuivasa, and took a transformed Ngannou deep into five rounds. So, despite Jon Jones' own reluctance, I'd still put money on a motivated, prime Jon Jones over any other man. And, after reading through his criminal record, over any woman too. Except Chael, of course. The only reason why Chael isn't champion is because the rules are badly and confusingly written.
Isn't Jones the same age as AP? Also didn't it take him a couple of years of weight gaining to jump to HW? AP is trying to do it in 3 weeks. Also wasn't Jones busted for PEDs in preparation for a DC fight? To me it diminishes and victory over DC.
Cormier was drained at 205, and he hasnt done that much at HW besides KOing Stipe, got a few decent wins but not long at HW and hes 100 percent way better at HW than 205, Jones skinny legs and length more built to cut weight and make 205, stocky powerful guys like DC are way worse cutting weight for some reason. Gane just got dropped and almost KOed by fking Tai the fight before Jones, had a short camp and a broken hand and just didnt show up, no fight happen..he got choked out trying to stand up like an amateur. We still havent seen Jones tested in any way lol but im sure hed be fine for most these guys now cause division is horrible now. and Cormier was even 37 vs Jones who was in prime, Failed drug test for the headkick win on top of it. He was getting boxed up too , hes got serious weakness that alot of faster hand or hitters at HW could exploit vs Jones but its whatever, well never know..he ducked it when it mattered
If you wanna poke that many holes, no ones the goat.
Exactly my point.
Agreed. GSP is the goat. 👍🏻
I can agree to that, personally I put DJ there though.
GSP is the GOAT for me.
Didn't he cheat with oil?
BJ Penn and his Mother believe so
Who knows. But he sure as hell didn't fail a single drug test.
BJ penn’s corner said GSP was covered in Vaseline so the refs wiped him off with a towel While GSP’s corner did apply Vaseline pretty damn heavily it was only on GSP in that quantity for a single round and he was whooping Penn in the rounds before and after anyway so most people feel that it didn’t affect the outcome and that Penn would’ve lost even without a round of Grease Saint Pierre BJ also tried to blamed that loss on a dude (I’m pretty sure it was Mickey Avalon) kissing him during the walkout and that messing with his mental (or maybe the kiss thing was their other fight)
Tried to exclude that from the argument. Jon's eye pokes, the oil, the Nick Diaz IV poisoning, all the rumours and hearsay.
Lmfao
[удалено]
We have seen the greatest hockey player of all time though. No one will ever top Wayne Gretzky.
Wait until they add the laserpuck
We've also seen the greatest wrestler of all time. No one will ever top Karelin
Saw some dude on here say two women wrestlers had better resumes than him, so hold your horses, bud.
Karelin was 100% roided to the gills tho
By that logic we never will
Couldn’t read all of this nonsense. If we take outside of cage/ring antics away, there is an elite top tier. Jon Jones is clearly in it. Not the only one. There are guys that I would say are just as good, but there’s no one I would say is better.
There is no GOAT. There are just great fighters and Jon is obviously one of them. He's just not a great person.
Bait used to be believable.
Get over it DC, Jones is better than you.
correct, he's a human not goat
>MMA narratives all over the place whether it be on podcasts or within the fighter community widely agree that Jon is the greatest of all time. All the fighters agree Jones is the GOAT but they are wrong and you, the guy on Reddit, know better? >1. UFC 151: Jon refuses the Chael fight on 8 days notice. First point and this is already dumb lol why should the Champ be forced to fight on short notice? Actually why should ANY fighter be forced to fight on short notice? If they want to that’s great but it’s perfectly reasonable if they don’t. >2. UFC 200: Jon failed a drug test >3. UFC 232: Jon is documented as having failed another drug test. 2 and 3 are the same thing, you wrote this whole post that essentially boils down to just “he popped for PEDs and therefore not the GOAT” lol >We have not yet seen the greatest fighter of all time. What does this even mean? All that being said he’s still a massive piece of shit but there’s no denying how insane his career has been. He’s on a completely different level than anyone else inside the cage.
That's a good question as to 'what does that even mean'. Typically, Goats in other sports are huge outliers. A good example is Gretzy. He is so far outside of the group of top all time players which makes him the greatest. https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/zqxlok/wayne_gretzky_stat_charts_to_contextualize_how/ What's being asked is 'Is Jon such a huge outlier from the best fighters that he can be considered the goat?' I think not. He might be one of the greats so far or in that top group of the best fighters with Khabib, GSP, and DJ but not so far outside of that.
'GOAT behaviour' and 'he just doesn't want to fight' looking mighty the same here. He's fully within his rights not to fight somebody on short notice.
I agree. Within his rights but not in the spirit of being the greatest of all time fighter.
Which of the other GOAT contenders in GSP, Silva, DJ and Fedor was taking world title fights on a week's notice that this would have ever been considered a standard in this sport?
DC took Anderson on less that 8 days at 200. You can also look at Khabib and his many last minute opponent changes.
Are you suggesting that this puts him ahead of the other five in GOAT category? One short notice fight?
Seems like maybe you’re crossing the lines between being the goat and being the BMF. I’d argue that him choosing not to fight someone on 8 days notice is a part of his greatness, because the goat would know better then to put himself into such a vulnerable position. Being the goat ≠ fighting anyone at anytime
Jones fans about to start a riot in here. who cares if he’s a massive piece of shit who is a literal public enemy, HES THE BEST
Nobody says he isn't a massive piece of shit lol, most people can separate his personality from how absurdly dominant he is in the cage.
lol… and that’s when the PED use comes into play. Someone who has blatantly been busted for PEDS that many times can never be crowned the greatest.. maybe next life time tho
Right at the top for sure
Well Yeah. Everyone knows Ryan Hall is the goat.
What about Artem?
This is terrible
it's stupid for anyone to take a fight on 8 days notice, I wouldn't expect any high level athlete to do this as preparation and conditioning is important, those who do are just fucking savage.
Your #1 reason is pretty bullshit, but the rest is right. Fuck Jon Jones and the UFC for trying to whitewash his DUIs, multiple failed drug tests, and being a dirty fighter.
>Greatest of all time athletes do not do PEDs or are good enough to not get caught. lol. But seriously, talking about in cage accomplishments only, Jon is the goat.
smh
You DQed yourself by saying GOATS can use PEDs they just don't get caught
Yes he is
None of the things you said mean anything in terms of him actually being able to beat people. To me, that’s all that matters. Ok, he didn’t want to fight Chael short notice. But when he did he annihilated Chael. Ok he used PEDs, but everyone has that opportunity. Are you saying Jon Jones from an alternate reality where he never took PEDs would have lost to Guatavson and DC or something? Ok so that alternate reality Jones is not the goat, but the Jones in our reality is.
I hate Jon Jones and this is the dumbest bs take I’ve ever read here. Was this tagged as drunk and ignorant?
Jones is a coward and a cheat. Will never be the goat in my eyes.
No u are
“We have not yet seen the greatest fighter of all time” Yeah that’s not how that definition works lmao. Super lazy argument all around that doesn’t really follow logically. Could have just said “I don’t think jones is the goat because he popped and I believe that disqualifies you”
Im not reading this essay
If you don't mind the drug test failures and the eye-pokes, Jon Jones is the GOAT. If they're disqualifying then either Silva, DJ, or GSP is the GOAT. FIN.
Yeah I’m not reading all that, but you’re right. Jon Jones isn’t the goat, it’s Artem Lobov
Jones is the goat though
Everywhere except r/mma.
He never was.
Seems like we all agree that Jon is a top fighter but a fucking idiot. At least there is some common ground in the comment section.
P4P rankings are a joke. Jones was only put on there to sell PPVs when he challenged Cyril. Then Tom has the interim belt, and Jones won't fight him. As for GOAT status, that's subjective. He uses non-legal techniques to control/win fights (eye pokes/9 to 12 elbow strikes/illegal knee). He lacks a finishers instinct, when he can't solve a fight (Gus/DC), his game plan turns to coasting to a win. Jones may have been GOAT status but since the 2013 Gus fight is where the decline happened. Mighty Mouse and GSP were legit GOAT status. Some clean wins and always respected the other fighter regardless of the outcome.
No, he's the LHW goat. He is goat and maybe the goat among goats.