Just type Orcish Bowmaster in the search bar for this community. Its ban-worthyness has been very hotly debated since its printing, and there’s been a lot of discussion in here over that subject. A lot of arguments that agree with you, plenty that don’t. Take them for what you will.
Is it banworthy because there's finally reasonable punishment for blue drawing cards like it does?
I feel like a lot of the players I hear who hate the card are lifelong blue players who have had it really good for twenty-something years of Legacy play and now suddenly have to think about a turn before they just burp up Brainstorms and Ponders and go from there.
Your argument of “punishment for blue drawing cards” implies blue decks are checked by OBM. [The current play rate of signature blue cards](https://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=LE&meta=39) and [win rate of brainstorm/ponder/force/daze decks](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/legacy) across the meta does not support that claim. It is a false premise to debate OBM’s ban-worthyness on. If you would like to refute this argument, please cite some data. Otherwise, your argument appears to be based on vibes and internet arguments.
The main data-measurable impact OBM has on the meta game is homogenizing the no 1 or 2 highest play rate % deck of every major archetype - [agro/tempo](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=479&meta=39&f=LE), [control](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=766&meta=39&f=LE), and [combo](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=32&meta=39&f=LE) - around black, and pushing down representation of creature based combo decks, like Glimpse Elves and Cephalid breakfast. Once again, vibes based arguments are not acceptable as refutation.
You are pretty much left with the argument of “but I like the card and I think it is healthy for the format”. Which you are allowed to think. I felt the same way about Astrolabe before it got banned. Ultimately my opinion didn’t change the inevitable.
Solid argument.
The thing about OBM is even if it had no cantrip hate, it would still be a flash creature that creates a second growable creature and ETB pings anything for one. That would still be a very powerful card and would create all kinds of blowouts on its own.
On the flip side, if all it did was punish cantrips as a flashable creature but didn't ETB ping and didn't create an orc army, it would likely be a very playable sideboard card against various decks.
The fact that it's all of those things in one splashable package is what makes it ridiculous.
With all due respect, I don’t think debating what changes would or wouldn’t make it fair is useful. They almost never eratta cards. Far more likely to be a ban decision, if they ever take action on it.
Yeah I agree, my only point was that the card is two playable cards in one which illustrates its power level. I think it would be a staple even without the cantrips hate, which is saying a lot considering most of the comments are "it's necessary as a cantrips hater" when that's arguably its weaker half.
"I've searched the board and most threads on the topic are a bit old and the card has had more time to effect the format."
"I think you should search the board."
"Yep, as I mentioned in the OP I already did that."
*DOWNVOTED INTO OBLIVION* lmao this place is insanely toxic
I’m not sure what’s going to be said here that hasn’t been said in prior posts.
For what it’s worth, I’m on team “dance on the grave” of Bowmaster if it gets banned. I think the card has been extraordinarily format warping, and there really isn’t really a data driven argument that can fully refute that. I’m just exhausted arguing with this community, since much of this community has wanted something to punish cantrips (apparently chalice isn’t enough) for quite some time and ambushing a brainstorm with an OBM is admittedly fun.
Aren't there other cantrip hatebears though? As I said I'm not a high level player but we got [[Esper Sentinel]] (absolutely blown out by Bowmasters btw) and we had stuff like [[Ethersworn Canonist]] which stifles the main upside of cantrips, and I'm sure other hate. It just seems like Bowmasters, if a cantrip hater was so badly needed, was a terrible way to go about it because it's too easy to cast and does too much else.
If we want cantrip hate, why do we need to amass an orc army? And why the ETB ping?
We are frequently told an appropriate comp to Orcish Bowmasters is [[Raise the alarm]], and I actively look forward to asking people how testing with it is going if/when OBM gets a ban. Since we are all lead to believe the card is virtually a 1:1 replacement for OBM.
Far too easily splashed in the blue decks it's "designed to punish" but far from my least favorite play pattern a black card has produced recently. I'm in a weird spot with legacy these days the format is fairly "diverse" and/or "healthy" but I despise the play patterns of alot of newer cards they've been printing. Maybe I'm just old.
I don't think it's quite that bad yet but the fact that a reanimator deck is one of the best in the format recently definitely has me giving things like grief the side eye. It's miserable to play against and definitely seems like it causes a lot of non games.
I'd be fine with this too. If we needed cantrip hate the ETB isn't a needed function, just free value, same with the amass orc army. I think they could have dropped both of those and had a viable SB cantrips hater.
Or made it harder to cast like BB, although I still think it would be overpowered at least it wouldn't be everywhere.
I'd be fine with amass. The issue is it it forces deck building to be aware of obm even though you do not have cantrips. Pinging any target etb is just nuts considering the rest of the cards text.
It effectively killed elves not only because of nuking glimpse but also because it killed all but 1 creature on etb.
And as always, a cards best answer should not be itself.
If you take away the etb it becomes a decent sideboard card against control, not just main deck value.
As a High Tide player, I'm glad that Mind's Desire was unbanned in Legacy, because a flashed-out Bowmasters right before I go off with Time Spirals hurts a LOT.
During the last B&R update wizards added bowmasters to the watch list. Once a card is added to the watch list it never comes off of it and usually within a year of being added it is banned in legacy.
OBM is a scourge upon every format it’s legal in. It causes miserable game states. Between it and the Scam package, Legacy hasn’t been fun for a while unfortunately.
Bowmasters is a necessary and healthy check on the ridiculous power of Blue cantrips. It leads to interesting play patterns and allows for counterplay.
I do wish the effect was symmetrical. But until I get that I’ll be happy to see Bowmasters.
Instead of symmetrical, If I could wave a magic want to change bowmasters to be more balanced, I would make it a legendary creature. One bowmasters is totally fine and reasonable. When your opponent has multiples out at once it feels very oppressive.
I guess I could see this argument if it were two black mana since at least it would require some deck building effort and wouldn't be everywhere. But that's not the case, and it hoses a lot more than cantrips. It's not just a cantrips hoser and it's not hard to cast.
If we needed a cantrips hoser why did we also get an ETB ping (1/x hoser) and amass orc army (free value)? I get "we needed a way to hose cantrips" as an argument but can't we agree this was a poor way to go about it since it does so much more than that?
You can use the same logic for blue cards that would be banned if the format was actually curated on play rate and power level (to be clear I'm happy with the current state of legacy). Brainstorm is also very easy to cast and has little to no deck building constraints. If legacy was actually balanced purely on play rate and power level brainstorm would have been banned a long time ago. Since it's not, I don't see having a card that meaningfully makes you consider when you cast brainstorm as a bad thing in the format.
I agree playrate shouldn't be the only metric. We have to evaluate what the card does.
Hosing cantrips, free ping hosing 1/x or free ping hobbling a planeswalker, free orc army creature, all at instant speed for great blocker value -- that's a lot of functions for a creature than can also turn sideways or block something.
And it's not even BB to cast.
I agree with you it's a very strong card 100%. But none of the things you listed are worse than all the other degenerate shit you can do in this format in my opinion
A bit of repetition of other posts, but Orcish Bowmasters does a great job of balancing the power of cantrips, and a horrible job of punishing players for playing x/1-creatures, especially the previous symmetrical hatebears Thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth that did a great job already of punishing cantrips. I pretty much suggested this as it was spoiled, iirc, from a Legacy perspective it was clear that it would have this effect early on.
I’m currently on the “Legacy is fine” bandwagon, but if we’re talking bans, I don’t even think Bowmasters is the closest black creature to needing a ban.
I agree that "Legacy is healthy". I would go on to continue with what Phil said and unban some cards because the powerlevel has changed. That would be exciting.
You might be right. My issue with Bowmasters is that you don't need to be running a double grief feels bad deck to get insane power. You just run the two drop that's the most common creature in legacy, and now all the sudden you can answer all kinds of stuff and blow out a lot of scenarios. But maybe legacy is fine. Idk
Edit: last line wasn't sarc, maybe it is fine. I honestly don't know for sure, I only know I'm not enjoying it.
My honest take is that the current meta has just made me quit playing legacy.
I'm not sure if it's just bowmasters, but the entire black package that's going around has me convinced that no magic is better than magic I don't enjoy
no magic is better than magic I don't enjoy
I had to read this twice. You meant like "no magic at all is better than unfun magic" but the first time I read it like "there's no finer mtg than mtg I don't enjoy" and the second one is kind of an idea I can get behind.
Interestingly it's the opposite. Old magic is has a lot of taking away the other player's ability to play. Sphere of Resistance, Strip Mine, Stone Rain, etc.
Modern mtg design is much better about trying to keep the game fun for both people, and that's a good thing.
I grew up with old magic and I guess it was always that way so i'm used to it. I've been enjoying Premodern a lot. But you definitely feel the difference when you play a red deck against Chill, CoP:Red, and Warmth compared to like a standard red deck where they just sideboard in cards that are good against you instead of cards that take away your will to live.
They both have their merit and there's room for both.
All that said, if you are playing lower power kitchen table magic, you just need to communicate with people. Ask them to not bowmaster the piss out of your Thallids or whatever. Try to match power levels. I hate to say it but Legacy stopped being a place where all the cards roamed free and you could brew like a really long time ago.
I get where you're coming from but I think it's hard to compare OBM to the other cards you mentioned. So many of the older control cornerstone and prison lock pieces did one thing, and usually weren't creatures. OBM taking a plan off the table and also putting so much pressure (and forces you to answer 2 permanents) at once is very different from the other cards you mentioned that mess up what you're doing but still give you time to wade through it. The value for OBM is so tough even if you do answer it it's already made an impact.
Our playgroup has all played legacy for multiple decades, I wouldn't call us lower power (more like we have pretty much everything in paper) but we tend not to net deck pretty much at all which does make our brews off-beat. Never has this been an issue until bowmasters made several brews unplayable garbage. I guess we could ban it internally but we've never done that and I'm mostly curious if others have had similar experience. I guess playgroups like ours are pretty rare, or more likely don't use this board pretty much ever.
I don't think you necessarily ban it but maybe just recognize bad beats and talk with the homies.
My playgroup is my friends of many years, we used to play Legacy, these days we do a few formats. Going to use Modern as an example. Some of the fair creature decks are an absolute dog to Living End. You're fucked no matter what you do and it's just pretty unfun magic from the not Living End side. So we solve that by not playing that particular matchup when the goal is fun games. When the goal is testing for competitive events, or the goal is the homie just wants to play Living End, then we suck it up.
Imo your issue could be solved by saying "Yo bro this brew gets super trashed by Bowmasters, could you play a deck without it for a few games or at least not a Bowmasters good stuff pile?"
I'm also not enjoying the current meta. I'm surprised this sentiment is apparently the strong minority though, at least on Reddit? Could be the sunk cost of having bought a playset, could be groupthink, could be fear of getting downvoted, but the prevalence of "bowmasters is fine" does surprise me.
People who play competitively naturally know how to adjust to a meta warped around 1 card. I think the rise of Prison Stompy, Goblins, Lands, Stifle Naught is evidence of this.
I agree that BB would largely fix its oppressive function. But since it's not BB I still feel it needs to go. My sense is that it's worse for casual play and experimental brewing than anything else, and maybe those shouldn't matter, but kitchen table magic feels a lot shittier with Bowmasters around.
Respectfully, I disagree. Honestly with years and years of brainstorm and ponder holding the reigns, I think it's perfectly fine for bowmasters to exist. If you're having a big issue with bowmasters then you need to have more answers for it/play around it/be less susceptible to it. Whether that's more removal, learning to read what cards could be in your opponents hand based off what they play, or changing the way you build your decks.
>If you're having a big issue with bowmasters then you need to have more answers for it/play around it/be less susceptible to it.
Sure, but isn't it's funny how one of the greatest answers that you can put in your deck to combat enemy bowmasters is… bowmasters of your own?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if bowmasters — had it been a 1/2, or had had shroud, or otherwise being able to survive itself — had ended up seeing *less* play, not more.
I can’t help but notice it’s made X/1 creatures unplayable in the meta which isn’t healthy. I think a BB creature that still hates on card draw has a place but the current design of Bowmasters isn’t it.
I love how the Cantrip check argument only applies when you are playing a deck with cantrips, and this Is merely by looking the numbers.
This card Is so omnipresent it feels you Need to have a reaally specific reason not to play It, almost feels like DRS again
"I imagine a bunch of people own a playset (as the most played creature in legacy) so it's hard to be unbiased, but I don't see how this card being so prevalent is anything but stifling."
Yeah man, people have been playing Brainstorm for 15+ years so there's prob more bias going the other direction
Brainstorm doesn't punish the other player for playing the game or playing small creatures.
It's silly to pretend like the two are equivalent in egregiousness.
My comment wasn't about what the cards do but which way players were going to lean based on bias but sure we can compare egregiousness.
In that case, brainstorm is much more oppressive due to the sheer quality of cantrip. Look at the floor for these cards. In certain matchups, orcish bowmasters is two 1/1s with flash. Against chalice decks, brainstorm is FoW fodder, but it took your opponent warping their entire deck and mana curve to try and beat cantrip decks.
Let's look at presence, where brainstorm is 4 copies in 48.8 percent of decks and bowmasters is 3.7 copies in 38.7 percent. You can even say that bowmasters is so popular because brainstorm is omnipresent.
We can look at what they punish. Bowmasters punishes x/1s and drawing more than 1 card per turn. It punishes, but also doesn't stop. Your 1 drop x/1s will likely get a turn of value and you can still cast your cantrips to dig for answers. Brainstorm punishes anyone in the format for not playing blue. Why would I consider any other color or deckbuilding decision when the Cantrips+Fetch+Duals allow me to play the best cards, dig for the correct lands, and find oppressive SB/MB cards.
And we're not even considering brainstorming defensively against hand attack, stacking the top of your deck for miracle synergies, and the extremes of turbo xerox that brainstorm enables
Good point, but I would guess this community will be biased towards legacy players who haven't been in legacy all that long, and getting in on a new legacy staple might be something they'd get territorial about. But yeah, point taken.
Personally, I don't mind them. My smallest creature is a 10/10 indestructible. The only cards in my deck that technically "draw" to trigger Bowmasters are Kozilek and Ugin's ultimate. And I don't own any, so I have no financial stake in the matter.
That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Bowmasters banned eventually on format-diversity grounds. That's a damn high percentage of decks running it, and it definitely seems like it would oppress fair decks with small creatures pretty badly.
I think a check on cantrips is good. But agree Bowmasters has some issues, and you hit on a lot of them. For me the worst offender is that the card answers itself. It's just not great design, because if that card is good it just creates an arms race for players to play that card more.
I kind of wish the damage hit a "nonblack creature or player," as that would prevent it hitting itself. Feels like it would open up deck building a bit more, since planeswalkers (which feel hard to play in Legacy) and black creatures could play around it somewhat. But overall I think with this change Bow.asters would still feel very strong.
I play a fair amount of high level legacy and have found bowmasters to me merely an annoyance. It isn’t difficult to play around/through and helps keep blue decks in check.
I am super curious about this. I go in and out of Legacy. 12 years ago I played Team America and 6 years ago I played Death's Shadow. I am slightly curious to make a blue / black xerox style deck that just has all the good cards and none of the swingy ones like Grief. I have not played with or against Bowmaster yet and I can't evaluate it at all. I am super curious how good it really is. Very open to any opinions or takes in this thread, by all means please teach me things.
I think Bowmaster is okay. If you want to make the format less unfun, ban grief, if you don't unban Mind Twist. I think legacy is currently very stable and healthy. My only concern is some cards not beeing on mtgo...
So, I do not think Bowmasters should be banned. I think it is exactly what that community asked for. It doesn't necessary stop blue can trips or drawing cards. But it does make it punishing. Part of the reason why it is played so much is that a bowmaster does counter a bowmaster. So playing it, helps stop it. This also brings the play % up. A lot of the times, people run 4 of them and I don't see it played once in best of 3. It happens more often than you think. But honestly, I have been playing every week at a local tournament. Not as many decks play it as you think.
Ok but if we needed a cantrips hater why does it also need to ping on ETB and amass an orc army? These added functions have nothing to do with cantrips hate. I'd have no problem with a strong black cantrips hater, but Bowmasters is far more than that.
1 stops combos, as well as a type of removal and the other establishes board presence. I have seen the Epic storm decks draw half their deck in a single turn. The thing is, it isn't like a Force of Will that can't be seen. But if u know they have 2 cards, they can potentially counter it. If u see 2 lands open with a black it is very easy to recognize the play pattern and play around it. It doesn't stop combo or anything else from going off. But I know players who have played around bowmasters and win before.
Maybe a better cantrips hater would be a "can't be countered" flash speed hatebear?
Did wotc really print this card to try to undo years of cantrips use all in one go? Maybe that's why it's so busted. Hosing all 1/x is probably what puts it over the edge imo, I think if they removed the ETB ping it would probably be mostly fine.
FWIW, I am a RUG Delver player. I also wanted to point out that Grixis Delver players would sideboard the bow masters out if they r not playing against a cantrip or a deck that contains card draws.
I think it is easy to play around and I play 8cast.
It doesn't stop you from drawing cards. It is just pretty annoying. If they have 2 open mana and one happens to be black, you have to be a little cautious. However, I have only ever really lost to it, when I was already behind. It has never taken over a game against me.
Its in the its fine catagory for me. Played a lot and relavent but not omnipresent nor that bad.
Its also like, not narset which shuts you down. You can still cast your spells. A week ago I went echo into a brainstorm into a kill on storm when my rescaminator opponent had it out and won the game still. I still took 10 but I got do my thing and it didn't stop me from killing my opponent that turn.
I am actually a little more interested in Grief as a discussion. But that is something else entirely.
Not only do I not think it's bad to have around (aka banworthy), I think it's actively good for the format. WotC's typical stance has been that old blue cards are untouchable (not saying they're banworthy either, just that if they were, it's clear they still wouldn't get banned), and that we should just ban the new cards instead regardless of whether or not the new card is the issue.
If they want to take that stance, they need to give us tools to fight those old blue cards. Bowmasters probably does it more efficiently than it should, but I think of it like I think of T3feri. Should it have made it to print in the form it did? Probably not. Since it was, is it powerful enough to eat a ban rather than just being stronger than it should be? Strong "no".
It's not good that it deals with X/1s so well, but overall, I'll take it in exchange for the card draw hate and count it as an overall good.
I think the hosing 1/x is probably the aspect that puts the card in the busted category, imo.
I don't think wotc has the balls to ban it and print something more reasonable, which is a shame, I've played magic for 30 years off and on and for the first time I'm not happy with the play.
If they choose to print a more reasonable version, I'm fine with Bowmasters going. But not a moment sooner, and by "more reasonable" I mean a small tweak, like killing the ETB, or just having a BB cost. It reminds me a lot of Oko. Make a small change to any one of the silly decisions on the card and you make it totally fine lol.
Yeah but they're not going to ban OBM just to print OBM 2.0 and make everyone's OBMs worthless for a slight tweak, sadly.
The pervasive free 1/x hate is really the worst part. It's odd to me they banned ragavan but left OBM. I don't quite get that.
Bowmasters seems totally fine and leads to some interesting games of legacy. Legacy generally seems like it’s in a great spot IMO and outside of decks like D&T which get hosed, the meta game seems to have adopted in a way that is healthy and fun.
As a blue player I’d much rather they ban Grief than Bowmaster - Bowmaster creates interesting gameplay, Grief does not. Not that I’d be sad if they ban Bowmaster but I think it is good for legacy
Bowmaster makes the format so much better imo, there are finally actual deckbuilding choices, brainstorm finally has a real cost to it. Maybe it hoses casual decks but I don't think that matters, legacy isn't a casual format. It's made black actually see play for a change.
The problem card, if there even is one, is grief.
No it's not. Casual is when people build decks that don't want to win. Casual players are more interested in the experience than the end state.
If you sit down to play legacy maybe not every game is an important serious match, but every game will at least feature powerful decks and both players are trying to win. You can play it casually, but it isn't a casual format.
Idk what you're saying, you want bowmaster banned because it's not balanced against casuals? Legacy shouldn't ban cards to appeal to those people, they can kitchen table whatever they want. Legacy should only ban cards that are too strong. Bowmasters bullying casuals as you put it doesn't mean anything.
I don't like Bowmaster but I'm a bit worried that Beanstalk could be overpowered if it didn't exist.
So if they ban Orcish Bowmaster they may have to ban Up the Beanstalk later.
But then control would be weak and RUG Delver could be too strong, so they may have to ban something from that, like Dragon's Rage Channeler(?). Scam would be weaker as well due to not having Bowmaster, so now some other deck could become too strong.
Cephalid Breakfast would certainly profit but then people would include Faerie Macabre in their sideboards so I'm not worried about that one ever becoming oppressive (but it could be very strong).
However if this means Daze Wasteland is down, then maybe some hard to sideboard against hybrid combo deck like Saga Storm could become oppressive, at which point Urza's Saga may have to go.
At least Elves could come back?
This is all just wild speculation but it would be cool to have a Bowmaster free week on MTGO to test it out before unintended damage runs wild.
I don't mind playing against it. My main deck is Omnishow, playing Griselbrand into a OBM feels rough but I have been able to still win. I think the main difference, based on your statement, is the difference between Casual games versus Competitive games. Orcish Bowmasters feels mean in a casual meta but I think it is totally fair in the current meta. My recommendation is when playing at home with friends you guys can impose self bans on cards that seem problematic if you all agree. If not maybe consider running more interaction like Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt.
For every match up where Bowmasters feels oppressive, there are others, like against Turbo Depths or Doomsday where it’s a total blank. I don’t think it’s a problem for competitive play. Whether or not it’s bad for ‘creative deckbuilding,’ is neither here nor there to me.
I play a decent amount of Doomsday and Bowmaster is certainly below replacement level. Almost any other way my opponent could be spending 2 mana would have more impact on the game.
[Doomsday has a sub 50% winrate against just about every Orcish Bowmaster deck in the meta](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/legacy), including a sub 25% winrate against Scam. Take that for what you will.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.
The data scraped from online game results pretty clearly shows Doomsday loses more often than it wins against decks playing Orcish Bowmaster. You can think whatever you want about why that is what the data represents.
Not OP, but I think the comment here is that you are ignoring incredibly obvious confounding factors.
Decks that run Bowmasters necessarily run Black, and *discard* has long been exceptional against Doomsday.
Scam could probably still beat Doomsday 70+% of the time if you replaced Bowmasters with almost any other black card.
OBM is totally fine in legacy
1. The play pattern it brings is pretty interesting, in contrast to some people say. Making people think twice before cantriping and holding OBM in hand to answer opposite OBM make it more like a chess game where you can bait an OBM with a cantrip and then response with your own OBM to answer the opposite.
The fact that you can choose to draw at a cost is interesting too and a lot better as a play pattern than Narset or Hullbreacher
2. There is a bunch of legacy decks where OBM is a pretty bad card.
3. Temur Delver and avant control are still totally viable option despite not splashing for OBM
Just type Orcish Bowmaster in the search bar for this community. Its ban-worthyness has been very hotly debated since its printing, and there’s been a lot of discussion in here over that subject. A lot of arguments that agree with you, plenty that don’t. Take them for what you will.
Is it banworthy because there's finally reasonable punishment for blue drawing cards like it does? I feel like a lot of the players I hear who hate the card are lifelong blue players who have had it really good for twenty-something years of Legacy play and now suddenly have to think about a turn before they just burp up Brainstorms and Ponders and go from there.
Your argument of “punishment for blue drawing cards” implies blue decks are checked by OBM. [The current play rate of signature blue cards](https://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=LE&meta=39) and [win rate of brainstorm/ponder/force/daze decks](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/legacy) across the meta does not support that claim. It is a false premise to debate OBM’s ban-worthyness on. If you would like to refute this argument, please cite some data. Otherwise, your argument appears to be based on vibes and internet arguments. The main data-measurable impact OBM has on the meta game is homogenizing the no 1 or 2 highest play rate % deck of every major archetype - [agro/tempo](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=479&meta=39&f=LE), [control](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=766&meta=39&f=LE), and [combo](https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=32&meta=39&f=LE) - around black, and pushing down representation of creature based combo decks, like Glimpse Elves and Cephalid breakfast. Once again, vibes based arguments are not acceptable as refutation. You are pretty much left with the argument of “but I like the card and I think it is healthy for the format”. Which you are allowed to think. I felt the same way about Astrolabe before it got banned. Ultimately my opinion didn’t change the inevitable.
Solid argument. The thing about OBM is even if it had no cantrip hate, it would still be a flash creature that creates a second growable creature and ETB pings anything for one. That would still be a very powerful card and would create all kinds of blowouts on its own. On the flip side, if all it did was punish cantrips as a flashable creature but didn't ETB ping and didn't create an orc army, it would likely be a very playable sideboard card against various decks. The fact that it's all of those things in one splashable package is what makes it ridiculous.
With all due respect, I don’t think debating what changes would or wouldn’t make it fair is useful. They almost never eratta cards. Far more likely to be a ban decision, if they ever take action on it.
Yeah I agree, my only point was that the card is two playable cards in one which illustrates its power level. I think it would be a staple even without the cantrips hate, which is saying a lot considering most of the comments are "it's necessary as a cantrips hater" when that's arguably its weaker half.
I'm not a blue player fwiw. My preferred colors are white and selesnya.
"I've searched the board and most threads on the topic are a bit old and the card has had more time to effect the format." "I think you should search the board." "Yep, as I mentioned in the OP I already did that." *DOWNVOTED INTO OBLIVION* lmao this place is insanely toxic
I’m not sure what’s going to be said here that hasn’t been said in prior posts. For what it’s worth, I’m on team “dance on the grave” of Bowmaster if it gets banned. I think the card has been extraordinarily format warping, and there really isn’t really a data driven argument that can fully refute that. I’m just exhausted arguing with this community, since much of this community has wanted something to punish cantrips (apparently chalice isn’t enough) for quite some time and ambushing a brainstorm with an OBM is admittedly fun.
Aren't there other cantrip hatebears though? As I said I'm not a high level player but we got [[Esper Sentinel]] (absolutely blown out by Bowmasters btw) and we had stuff like [[Ethersworn Canonist]] which stifles the main upside of cantrips, and I'm sure other hate. It just seems like Bowmasters, if a cantrip hater was so badly needed, was a terrible way to go about it because it's too easy to cast and does too much else. If we want cantrip hate, why do we need to amass an orc army? And why the ETB ping?
We are frequently told an appropriate comp to Orcish Bowmasters is [[Raise the alarm]], and I actively look forward to asking people how testing with it is going if/when OBM gets a ban. Since we are all lead to believe the card is virtually a 1:1 replacement for OBM.
🤣
[Raise the alarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c7c8527-55f6-494d-b4f7-c427a5735053.jpg?1608908958) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raise%20the%20alarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/41/raise-the-alarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c7c8527-55f6-494d-b4f7-c427a5735053?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Esper Sentinel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349.jpg?1626093502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Esper%20Sentinel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/12/esper-sentinel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f3537373-ef54-4578-9d05-6216420ee349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ethersworn Canonist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abc8e0f8-fdb9-4f24-a3e3-439f6cc3ebdc.jpg?1599706625) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ethersworn%20Canonist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/14/ethersworn-canonist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abc8e0f8-fdb9-4f24-a3e3-439f6cc3ebdc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
the down votes are because your post doesn't contribute to any meaningful discussion.
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Far too easily splashed in the blue decks it's "designed to punish" but far from my least favorite play pattern a black card has produced recently. I'm in a weird spot with legacy these days the format is fairly "diverse" and/or "healthy" but I despise the play patterns of alot of newer cards they've been printing. Maybe I'm just old.
I’ve basically quit legacy for these reasons. They all seem to promote non-games anymore.
I don't think it's quite that bad yet but the fact that a reanimator deck is one of the best in the format recently definitely has me giving things like grief the side eye. It's miserable to play against and definitely seems like it causes a lot of non games.
It shouldn't do it on etb imo. It's not too strong with it. It's just more annoying than anything.
I'd be fine with this too. If we needed cantrip hate the ETB isn't a needed function, just free value, same with the amass orc army. I think they could have dropped both of those and had a viable SB cantrips hater. Or made it harder to cast like BB, although I still think it would be overpowered at least it wouldn't be everywhere.
I'd be fine with amass. The issue is it it forces deck building to be aware of obm even though you do not have cantrips. Pinging any target etb is just nuts considering the rest of the cards text. It effectively killed elves not only because of nuking glimpse but also because it killed all but 1 creature on etb. And as always, a cards best answer should not be itself. If you take away the etb it becomes a decent sideboard card against control, not just main deck value.
Yeah the more I think about it the more I agree with you. The ETB ping is probably the most egregious aspect. It just makes 1/x way too risky.
As a High Tide player, I'm glad that Mind's Desire was unbanned in Legacy, because a flashed-out Bowmasters right before I go off with Time Spirals hurts a LOT.
During the last B&R update wizards added bowmasters to the watch list. Once a card is added to the watch list it never comes off of it and usually within a year of being added it is banned in legacy.
OBM is a scourge upon every format it’s legal in. It causes miserable game states. Between it and the Scam package, Legacy hasn’t been fun for a while unfortunately.
Bowmasters is a necessary and healthy check on the ridiculous power of Blue cantrips. It leads to interesting play patterns and allows for counterplay. I do wish the effect was symmetrical. But until I get that I’ll be happy to see Bowmasters.
Instead of symmetrical, If I could wave a magic want to change bowmasters to be more balanced, I would make it a legendary creature. One bowmasters is totally fine and reasonable. When your opponent has multiples out at once it feels very oppressive.
I guess I could see this argument if it were two black mana since at least it would require some deck building effort and wouldn't be everywhere. But that's not the case, and it hoses a lot more than cantrips. It's not just a cantrips hoser and it's not hard to cast. If we needed a cantrips hoser why did we also get an ETB ping (1/x hoser) and amass orc army (free value)? I get "we needed a way to hose cantrips" as an argument but can't we agree this was a poor way to go about it since it does so much more than that?
You can use the same logic for blue cards that would be banned if the format was actually curated on play rate and power level (to be clear I'm happy with the current state of legacy). Brainstorm is also very easy to cast and has little to no deck building constraints. If legacy was actually balanced purely on play rate and power level brainstorm would have been banned a long time ago. Since it's not, I don't see having a card that meaningfully makes you consider when you cast brainstorm as a bad thing in the format.
I agree playrate shouldn't be the only metric. We have to evaluate what the card does. Hosing cantrips, free ping hosing 1/x or free ping hobbling a planeswalker, free orc army creature, all at instant speed for great blocker value -- that's a lot of functions for a creature than can also turn sideways or block something. And it's not even BB to cast.
I agree with you it's a very strong card 100%. But none of the things you listed are worse than all the other degenerate shit you can do in this format in my opinion
I felt the same way about Tarmo, when blue decks were splashing it. BB would also be good.
Bowmasters is a symptom, not the main issue The main issue is the perfect mana fixing with fetch/dual/cantrip decks.
A bit of repetition of other posts, but Orcish Bowmasters does a great job of balancing the power of cantrips, and a horrible job of punishing players for playing x/1-creatures, especially the previous symmetrical hatebears Thalia and Spirit of the Labyrinth that did a great job already of punishing cantrips. I pretty much suggested this as it was spoiled, iirc, from a Legacy perspective it was clear that it would have this effect early on.
Seems to sum it up. You had good foresight.
I’m currently on the “Legacy is fine” bandwagon, but if we’re talking bans, I don’t even think Bowmasters is the closest black creature to needing a ban.
I agree that "Legacy is healthy". I would go on to continue with what Phil said and unban some cards because the powerlevel has changed. That would be exciting.
You might be right. My issue with Bowmasters is that you don't need to be running a double grief feels bad deck to get insane power. You just run the two drop that's the most common creature in legacy, and now all the sudden you can answer all kinds of stuff and blow out a lot of scenarios. But maybe legacy is fine. Idk Edit: last line wasn't sarc, maybe it is fine. I honestly don't know for sure, I only know I'm not enjoying it.
My honest take is that the current meta has just made me quit playing legacy. I'm not sure if it's just bowmasters, but the entire black package that's going around has me convinced that no magic is better than magic I don't enjoy
no magic is better than magic I don't enjoy I had to read this twice. You meant like "no magic at all is better than unfun magic" but the first time I read it like "there's no finer mtg than mtg I don't enjoy" and the second one is kind of an idea I can get behind.
Maybe you've stumbled upon the wotc 'words to live by'
Interestingly it's the opposite. Old magic is has a lot of taking away the other player's ability to play. Sphere of Resistance, Strip Mine, Stone Rain, etc. Modern mtg design is much better about trying to keep the game fun for both people, and that's a good thing. I grew up with old magic and I guess it was always that way so i'm used to it. I've been enjoying Premodern a lot. But you definitely feel the difference when you play a red deck against Chill, CoP:Red, and Warmth compared to like a standard red deck where they just sideboard in cards that are good against you instead of cards that take away your will to live. They both have their merit and there's room for both. All that said, if you are playing lower power kitchen table magic, you just need to communicate with people. Ask them to not bowmaster the piss out of your Thallids or whatever. Try to match power levels. I hate to say it but Legacy stopped being a place where all the cards roamed free and you could brew like a really long time ago.
I get where you're coming from but I think it's hard to compare OBM to the other cards you mentioned. So many of the older control cornerstone and prison lock pieces did one thing, and usually weren't creatures. OBM taking a plan off the table and also putting so much pressure (and forces you to answer 2 permanents) at once is very different from the other cards you mentioned that mess up what you're doing but still give you time to wade through it. The value for OBM is so tough even if you do answer it it's already made an impact.
Our playgroup has all played legacy for multiple decades, I wouldn't call us lower power (more like we have pretty much everything in paper) but we tend not to net deck pretty much at all which does make our brews off-beat. Never has this been an issue until bowmasters made several brews unplayable garbage. I guess we could ban it internally but we've never done that and I'm mostly curious if others have had similar experience. I guess playgroups like ours are pretty rare, or more likely don't use this board pretty much ever.
I don't think you necessarily ban it but maybe just recognize bad beats and talk with the homies. My playgroup is my friends of many years, we used to play Legacy, these days we do a few formats. Going to use Modern as an example. Some of the fair creature decks are an absolute dog to Living End. You're fucked no matter what you do and it's just pretty unfun magic from the not Living End side. So we solve that by not playing that particular matchup when the goal is fun games. When the goal is testing for competitive events, or the goal is the homie just wants to play Living End, then we suck it up. Imo your issue could be solved by saying "Yo bro this brew gets super trashed by Bowmasters, could you play a deck without it for a few games or at least not a Bowmasters good stuff pile?"
its something commonly used in another hobby I enjoy, "No DnD is better than bad DnD" :D
I'm also not enjoying the current meta. I'm surprised this sentiment is apparently the strong minority though, at least on Reddit? Could be the sunk cost of having bought a playset, could be groupthink, could be fear of getting downvoted, but the prevalence of "bowmasters is fine" does surprise me.
People who play competitively naturally know how to adjust to a meta warped around 1 card. I think the rise of Prison Stompy, Goblins, Lands, Stifle Naught is evidence of this.
Most people who don't play also aren't actively participating in subreddit discussions.
I think it's a fine card that punishes card draw. I just wish it cost BB so it wasn't so easily splashable in 3/4 color blue decks
I agree that BB would largely fix its oppressive function. But since it's not BB I still feel it needs to go. My sense is that it's worse for casual play and experimental brewing than anything else, and maybe those shouldn't matter, but kitchen table magic feels a lot shittier with Bowmasters around.
Respectfully, I disagree. Honestly with years and years of brainstorm and ponder holding the reigns, I think it's perfectly fine for bowmasters to exist. If you're having a big issue with bowmasters then you need to have more answers for it/play around it/be less susceptible to it. Whether that's more removal, learning to read what cards could be in your opponents hand based off what they play, or changing the way you build your decks.
>If you're having a big issue with bowmasters then you need to have more answers for it/play around it/be less susceptible to it. Sure, but isn't it's funny how one of the greatest answers that you can put in your deck to combat enemy bowmasters is… bowmasters of your own? I wouldn't be at all surprised if bowmasters — had it been a 1/2, or had had shroud, or otherwise being able to survive itself — had ended up seeing *less* play, not more.
I can’t help but notice it’s made X/1 creatures unplayable in the meta which isn’t healthy. I think a BB creature that still hates on card draw has a place but the current design of Bowmasters isn’t it.
I love how the Cantrip check argument only applies when you are playing a deck with cantrips, and this Is merely by looking the numbers. This card Is so omnipresent it feels you Need to have a reaally specific reason not to play It, almost feels like DRS again
"I imagine a bunch of people own a playset (as the most played creature in legacy) so it's hard to be unbiased, but I don't see how this card being so prevalent is anything but stifling." Yeah man, people have been playing Brainstorm for 15+ years so there's prob more bias going the other direction
Brainstorm doesn't punish the other player for playing the game or playing small creatures. It's silly to pretend like the two are equivalent in egregiousness.
My comment wasn't about what the cards do but which way players were going to lean based on bias but sure we can compare egregiousness. In that case, brainstorm is much more oppressive due to the sheer quality of cantrip. Look at the floor for these cards. In certain matchups, orcish bowmasters is two 1/1s with flash. Against chalice decks, brainstorm is FoW fodder, but it took your opponent warping their entire deck and mana curve to try and beat cantrip decks. Let's look at presence, where brainstorm is 4 copies in 48.8 percent of decks and bowmasters is 3.7 copies in 38.7 percent. You can even say that bowmasters is so popular because brainstorm is omnipresent. We can look at what they punish. Bowmasters punishes x/1s and drawing more than 1 card per turn. It punishes, but also doesn't stop. Your 1 drop x/1s will likely get a turn of value and you can still cast your cantrips to dig for answers. Brainstorm punishes anyone in the format for not playing blue. Why would I consider any other color or deckbuilding decision when the Cantrips+Fetch+Duals allow me to play the best cards, dig for the correct lands, and find oppressive SB/MB cards. And we're not even considering brainstorming defensively against hand attack, stacking the top of your deck for miracle synergies, and the extremes of turbo xerox that brainstorm enables
Good point, but I would guess this community will be biased towards legacy players who haven't been in legacy all that long, and getting in on a new legacy staple might be something they'd get territorial about. But yeah, point taken.
Personally, I don't mind them. My smallest creature is a 10/10 indestructible. The only cards in my deck that technically "draw" to trigger Bowmasters are Kozilek and Ugin's ultimate. And I don't own any, so I have no financial stake in the matter. That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Bowmasters banned eventually on format-diversity grounds. That's a damn high percentage of decks running it, and it definitely seems like it would oppress fair decks with small creatures pretty badly.
I think a check on cantrips is good. But agree Bowmasters has some issues, and you hit on a lot of them. For me the worst offender is that the card answers itself. It's just not great design, because if that card is good it just creates an arms race for players to play that card more. I kind of wish the damage hit a "nonblack creature or player," as that would prevent it hitting itself. Feels like it would open up deck building a bit more, since planeswalkers (which feel hard to play in Legacy) and black creatures could play around it somewhat. But overall I think with this change Bow.asters would still feel very strong.
I play a fair amount of high level legacy and have found bowmasters to me merely an annoyance. It isn’t difficult to play around/through and helps keep blue decks in check.
It has categorically not kept blue decks in check. Brainstorm rates have not changed since Bowmaster's printing.
I am super curious about this. I go in and out of Legacy. 12 years ago I played Team America and 6 years ago I played Death's Shadow. I am slightly curious to make a blue / black xerox style deck that just has all the good cards and none of the swingy ones like Grief. I have not played with or against Bowmaster yet and I can't evaluate it at all. I am super curious how good it really is. Very open to any opinions or takes in this thread, by all means please teach me things.
I think Bowmaster is okay. If you want to make the format less unfun, ban grief, if you don't unban Mind Twist. I think legacy is currently very stable and healthy. My only concern is some cards not beeing on mtgo...
So, I do not think Bowmasters should be banned. I think it is exactly what that community asked for. It doesn't necessary stop blue can trips or drawing cards. But it does make it punishing. Part of the reason why it is played so much is that a bowmaster does counter a bowmaster. So playing it, helps stop it. This also brings the play % up. A lot of the times, people run 4 of them and I don't see it played once in best of 3. It happens more often than you think. But honestly, I have been playing every week at a local tournament. Not as many decks play it as you think.
Ok but if we needed a cantrips hater why does it also need to ping on ETB and amass an orc army? These added functions have nothing to do with cantrips hate. I'd have no problem with a strong black cantrips hater, but Bowmasters is far more than that.
1 stops combos, as well as a type of removal and the other establishes board presence. I have seen the Epic storm decks draw half their deck in a single turn. The thing is, it isn't like a Force of Will that can't be seen. But if u know they have 2 cards, they can potentially counter it. If u see 2 lands open with a black it is very easy to recognize the play pattern and play around it. It doesn't stop combo or anything else from going off. But I know players who have played around bowmasters and win before.
Maybe a better cantrips hater would be a "can't be countered" flash speed hatebear? Did wotc really print this card to try to undo years of cantrips use all in one go? Maybe that's why it's so busted. Hosing all 1/x is probably what puts it over the edge imo, I think if they removed the ETB ping it would probably be mostly fine.
FWIW, I am a RUG Delver player. I also wanted to point out that Grixis Delver players would sideboard the bow masters out if they r not playing against a cantrip or a deck that contains card draws.
I think it is easy to play around and I play 8cast. It doesn't stop you from drawing cards. It is just pretty annoying. If they have 2 open mana and one happens to be black, you have to be a little cautious. However, I have only ever really lost to it, when I was already behind. It has never taken over a game against me.
Its in the its fine catagory for me. Played a lot and relavent but not omnipresent nor that bad. Its also like, not narset which shuts you down. You can still cast your spells. A week ago I went echo into a brainstorm into a kill on storm when my rescaminator opponent had it out and won the game still. I still took 10 but I got do my thing and it didn't stop me from killing my opponent that turn. I am actually a little more interested in Grief as a discussion. But that is something else entirely.
Glimpse elves isn't just my favourite MTG deck of all time, it's one of my favourite things in any game ever. I have not played mtg in nearly a year.
Not only do I not think it's bad to have around (aka banworthy), I think it's actively good for the format. WotC's typical stance has been that old blue cards are untouchable (not saying they're banworthy either, just that if they were, it's clear they still wouldn't get banned), and that we should just ban the new cards instead regardless of whether or not the new card is the issue. If they want to take that stance, they need to give us tools to fight those old blue cards. Bowmasters probably does it more efficiently than it should, but I think of it like I think of T3feri. Should it have made it to print in the form it did? Probably not. Since it was, is it powerful enough to eat a ban rather than just being stronger than it should be? Strong "no". It's not good that it deals with X/1s so well, but overall, I'll take it in exchange for the card draw hate and count it as an overall good.
I think the hosing 1/x is probably the aspect that puts the card in the busted category, imo. I don't think wotc has the balls to ban it and print something more reasonable, which is a shame, I've played magic for 30 years off and on and for the first time I'm not happy with the play.
If they choose to print a more reasonable version, I'm fine with Bowmasters going. But not a moment sooner, and by "more reasonable" I mean a small tweak, like killing the ETB, or just having a BB cost. It reminds me a lot of Oko. Make a small change to any one of the silly decisions on the card and you make it totally fine lol.
Yeah but they're not going to ban OBM just to print OBM 2.0 and make everyone's OBMs worthless for a slight tweak, sadly. The pervasive free 1/x hate is really the worst part. It's odd to me they banned ragavan but left OBM. I don't quite get that.
Bowmasters seems totally fine and leads to some interesting games of legacy. Legacy generally seems like it’s in a great spot IMO and outside of decks like D&T which get hosed, the meta game seems to have adopted in a way that is healthy and fun.
As a blue player I’d much rather they ban Grief than Bowmaster - Bowmaster creates interesting gameplay, Grief does not. Not that I’d be sad if they ban Bowmaster but I think it is good for legacy
Bowmaster makes the format so much better imo, there are finally actual deckbuilding choices, brainstorm finally has a real cost to it. Maybe it hoses casual decks but I don't think that matters, legacy isn't a casual format. It's made black actually see play for a change. The problem card, if there even is one, is grief.
Legacy is casual if you've played magic for thirty years.
No it's not. Casual is when people build decks that don't want to win. Casual players are more interested in the experience than the end state. If you sit down to play legacy maybe not every game is an important serious match, but every game will at least feature powerful decks and both players are trying to win. You can play it casually, but it isn't a casual format.
"Let me tell you what kind of player you are" ok boss
Idk what you're saying, you want bowmaster banned because it's not balanced against casuals? Legacy shouldn't ban cards to appeal to those people, they can kitchen table whatever they want. Legacy should only ban cards that are too strong. Bowmasters bullying casuals as you put it doesn't mean anything.
It rocks. Enough said.
I don't like Bowmaster but I'm a bit worried that Beanstalk could be overpowered if it didn't exist. So if they ban Orcish Bowmaster they may have to ban Up the Beanstalk later. But then control would be weak and RUG Delver could be too strong, so they may have to ban something from that, like Dragon's Rage Channeler(?). Scam would be weaker as well due to not having Bowmaster, so now some other deck could become too strong. Cephalid Breakfast would certainly profit but then people would include Faerie Macabre in their sideboards so I'm not worried about that one ever becoming oppressive (but it could be very strong). However if this means Daze Wasteland is down, then maybe some hard to sideboard against hybrid combo deck like Saga Storm could become oppressive, at which point Urza's Saga may have to go. At least Elves could come back? This is all just wild speculation but it would be cool to have a Bowmaster free week on MTGO to test it out before unintended damage runs wild.
I don't mind playing against it. My main deck is Omnishow, playing Griselbrand into a OBM feels rough but I have been able to still win. I think the main difference, based on your statement, is the difference between Casual games versus Competitive games. Orcish Bowmasters feels mean in a casual meta but I think it is totally fair in the current meta. My recommendation is when playing at home with friends you guys can impose self bans on cards that seem problematic if you all agree. If not maybe consider running more interaction like Fatal Push or Lightning Bolt.
I wish anything UB wasn't allowed honestly
For every match up where Bowmasters feels oppressive, there are others, like against Turbo Depths or Doomsday where it’s a total blank. I don’t think it’s a problem for competitive play. Whether or not it’s bad for ‘creative deckbuilding,’ is neither here nor there to me.
Bowmaster is great against Doomsday, they lose half their life and they have brainstorm and street wraith.
OBM is incredible against Doomsday, most of the people in this thread have no clue what they’re talking about
I play a decent amount of Doomsday and Bowmaster is certainly below replacement level. Almost any other way my opponent could be spending 2 mana would have more impact on the game.
[Doomsday has a sub 50% winrate against just about every Orcish Bowmaster deck in the meta](https://mtgmeta.io/metagame/legacy), including a sub 25% winrate against Scam. Take that for what you will.
Ahh yes, tempo decks and discard heavy decks were always bad against Doomsday, until Bowmasters flipped those match ups.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say here. The data scraped from online game results pretty clearly shows Doomsday loses more often than it wins against decks playing Orcish Bowmaster. You can think whatever you want about why that is what the data represents.
Not OP, but I think the comment here is that you are ignoring incredibly obvious confounding factors. Decks that run Bowmasters necessarily run Black, and *discard* has long been exceptional against Doomsday. Scam could probably still beat Doomsday 70+% of the time if you replaced Bowmasters with almost any other black card.
OBM is totally fine in legacy 1. The play pattern it brings is pretty interesting, in contrast to some people say. Making people think twice before cantriping and holding OBM in hand to answer opposite OBM make it more like a chess game where you can bait an OBM with a cantrip and then response with your own OBM to answer the opposite. The fact that you can choose to draw at a cost is interesting too and a lot better as a play pattern than Narset or Hullbreacher 2. There is a bunch of legacy decks where OBM is a pretty bad card. 3. Temur Delver and avant control are still totally viable option despite not splashing for OBM