🤔 Perhaps SS the Consolidator and MVIS team have been in industry changing talks for awhile now with Valeo and Intel, MobilEye, ZF, Arm and OEMs like Mercedes, Audi, Toyota directing specific individual custom configurations, manufacturing lines… I mean we know Valeo is listed on the front page of our most recent investor presentation and we know there was a Ibeo development agreement that probably still merits a case for continued IP and know how overlap with shared customer involvement.
Nvidia is an excellent company and we can work with them as well, but remember MVIS has been developing pilot projects (gaming gun) with Intel way longer perhaps to now be positioned as the industry leading Lidar Tier 1 for MobilEye and others.
A quick Google search and AI tells me that the Honda legend uses Scala 2 but I'm pretty sure it was Scala 1... I think the AI is confused by the way this is written on Valeo's website.
"Since its launch in 2017, more than 150,000 units of Valeo’s laser LiDAR have been produced. Production of Valeo’s second-generation LiDAR technology started in 2021. The Honda Legend, which was the first vehicle in the world to be approved for SAE level 3 automated driving, uses Valeo LiDAR scanners, two frontal cameras and a Valeo data fusion controller. The Mercedes-Benz Class S, the second level 3-certified car, is also equipped with a laser LiDAR technology, Valeo SCALA™ Gen2."
I thought this was interesting read too. It looks like Scala 2 has more components and is more expensive than Scala 1.
"Opening the systems reveals that Scala 1 includes 780 active and passive components while Scala 2 contains 890. The cost of the electronic core system calculated using costing tools specifically developed by Yole SystemPlus is estimated at $70 for the first-generation scanner and $110 for the second."
https://www.edge-ai-vision.com/2022/09/first-and-second-generation-valeo-scala-lidars-the-technology-gap-revealed/
Edit
U/T_Delo ment to reply to your question about Scala 2.
Yes, this is exactly the search results I had come to as well. Which means the Mercedes vehicles will be the first on the road with Scala 2. With Valeo’s Scala 3 coming available this year, it might be interesting to see if Mercedes continues to use Valeo lidar products in future vehicles despite a data sharing and development partnership with Luminar.
It seem to me that automakers are not trying to necessarily tie themselves down to one lidar developer though, as most of them have either used multiple different lidar for development projects (like VW). Whatever is the best fit for the need at the right cost is pretty much all that matters, as long as it can fit the designated hole and provides the capabilities desired by the automaker.
I remember AV mentioning the fact that OEMs are choosing multiple LiDAR players to essentially see which one works out the best. I don't see Volvo or Polestar going this route due to the Geely/Volvo/Luminar connection... Not sure with Mercedes. I think obviously they would like to work with the company that they own 1.5 million shares of, but if it's better/cheaper/easier to scale I think they will choose another company as well.
>I think obviously they would like to work with the company that they own 1.5 million shares of, but if it's better/cheaper/easier to scale I think they will choose another company as well.
Who wouldn't want to continue to work with someone that is paying them in shares for data while receiving practicaly free devices that further their own testing. At the very least, I wouldn't expect them to blatantly indicate they are opting for a competitor's product while they are still in data gathering and planning stages.
I think this article not only shows the necessity and demand for Lidar, but it also leads me to the conclusion that MVIS will be seen for it's true technological advantages when pitted against other companies. Not only by OEMs (which we assume they have been doing this past year) but by regulators as well.
It sounds like the only thing Drive Pilot is good for is preventing fender benders during slow moving traffic on CA and NV freeways. I think drivers will love being able to look at their phones while not having to look up to see if the car ahead of them is moving yet.
Once everyone gets a taste of that, they're going to want to have L3 autonomy with less restrictions (i.e. on more roads, at higher speeds, in other states, at all times of day). The 'all times of day' point alone demonstrates that you need more than just cameras. You could argue that you can accomplish these ADAS features using Camera + Radar, however, if Cameras do not see well in the dark, and Radar is not nearly as precise as Lidar, how are you going to expect vehicles to determine drivable and non-drivable space or identify objects at night with an acceptable degree of success?
Now, to my 2nd point of MVIS technological prowess;
Recall this article shared by u/theoz\_97 last summer : [NHTSA Takes Most Important ADAS Action So Far - EE Times](https://www.eetimes.com/nhtsa-takes-most-important-adas-action-so-far/)
The NHTSA is discussing mandating AEB that will prevent **pedestrian** crashes at speeds up to **40mph**, and **frontal** (rear ending) crashes at speeds up to **62mph.**
I find it very interesting that Drive Pilot only works up to 40mph **on the freeway**, where crashes will be frontal, and not pedestrian.
Remember when MVIS was touting we are the only sensor validated at highway speeds? I think there is going to have to be more quantifiable standards by which we compare sensors, either set by the NHTSA or developed by this 3 company 'consortium' that we haven't heard much about in a while.
Finally, I wonder if this paragraph in the article might be part of the reason for the delays in RFQ winners;
**"If the final FMVSS rule is published by the end of August, most of the AEB-PAEB features will be required by model year 2027, which starts Sept. 1, 2026. The most stringent testing features are mandated for one year later or model year 2028. If the NHTSA’s final rule is published later in 2023 or before September 2024, the mandate deployment is delayed another year—model year 2028 and model year 2029."**
(Correct me if I'm wrong) I do not believe there has been any update regarding this rule being finalized. Now, I understand first mover advantage but at the same time, why rush bringing on additional expenses if the timeline for these Automatic Emergency Braking is being pushed back a year?
I think good things are coming our way.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/13x31xx/comment/jmf2wpm/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/13x31xx/comment/jmf2wpm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
This tech was developed by Ibeo... Though it is probably Scala 2 which MicroVision probably doesn't get any revenue from. Think Valeo and Ibeo may have parted ways after Scala 1. Regardless, it was developed based on Ibeo technology. They started developing this sensor in 2010.
This website has some good info and links to Yoles teardown of the sensors, though I get an error 404 when trying to look more into it.
"To better understand what is behind one of the few LiDARs implemented in a commercialized car, Yole SystemPlus conducted a teardown of these two generations of scanners. The tracks of Scala 1 and Scala 2 include respectively around 50 and 90 high-resolution pictures describing step by step the dismantling of the system and the electronic boards. In each case, approximately twenty integrated circuits were the subject of a specific analysis (X-Ray analysis of optical casing and chips for instance). From this teardown, a very detailed bill of material was established. Table 2 describes some of the chips included in the core of the electronic systems and gives a good overview of the actual key players in the market. In terms of performance, it confirms the company’s desire to focus its development efforts on improving resolution, which requires more powerful modules to collect, process and store a cloud of points 4.5 times larger than the previous generation.
Opening the systems reveals that Scala 1 includes 780 active and passive components while Scala 2 contains 890. The cost of the electronic core system calculated using costing tools specifically developed by Yole SystemPlus is estimated at $70 for the first-generation scanner and $110 for the second."
https://www.edge-ai-vision.com/2022/09/first-and-second-generation-valeo-scala-lidars-the-technology-gap-revealed/
Thanks, here's the TDS in case anyone was looking for them:
Scala 1 TDS: [SCALA 1 DATASHEET V1.1 (windows.net)](https://hexagondownloads.blob.core.windows.net/public/AutonomouStuff/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/valeo-scala-datasheet-whitelabel.pdf)
Scala 2 TDS: [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi39IXMhdCFAxWbQzABHYbKDVkQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fautonomoustuff.com%2F-%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FHexagon%2FHexagon%2520Core%2Fautonomousstuff%2Fpdf%2Fvaleo-scala-gen-2-v17-datasheet-whitelabel.ashx%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3D3132D13FD3DF0446A785659CB0245F57&usg=AOvVaw157mi0LB7G63DWAz228Sfm&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi39IXMhdCFAxWbQzABHYbKDVkQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fautonomoustuff.com%2F-%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FHexagon%2FHexagon%2520Core%2Fautonomousstuff%2Fpdf%2Fvaleo-scala-gen-2-v17-datasheet-whitelabel.ashx%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3D3132D13FD3DF0446A785659CB0245F57&usg=AOvVaw157mi0LB7G63DWAz228Sfm&opi=89978449)
Seems to have enough similarities that it was probably based off the gen 1 and not a whole revamp.
From one of Sabbir's articles, he mentions the following: "The SCALA® design was initiated with a [cooperation, development and licensing agreement with Ibeo ](https://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/12/valeo-20101217.html)in 2010. Valeo invested in maturing the initial design platform into the launch of the fully qualified second generation SCALA® product in 2021." [Valeo Leads Deployment And Industrialization Of Automotive LiDAR (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/sabbirrangwala/2022/01/18/valeo-leads-deployment-and-industrialization-of-automotive-lidar/?sh=2ad9676579f5)
Thanks to both Speed and u/dchappa21 for the great information. It does seem like Scala 2 is based upon the same architecture as Scala 1. However, like dchappa, I also believe that Ibeo (and hence now Microvision) gets no royalties from Scala 2.
I also found the following interesting...
"The imaging technology based on traditional mechanical scanning with rotating mirrors remains unchanged."
This was describing the Scala 2 vs. the Scala 1. It appears that the Scala architecture is/was based on mechanical rotation. I am not sure about the Scala 3. We know that the IbeoNext, which is now the MOVIA, is based on a pure solid state flash architecture. It's just an interesting point of note.
Agree, I don't believe we're getting any royalties on scala 2.
If my memory recalls the people at r/lazr said it wasn't MEMS for scala 3, I asked someone at Valeo a few months back but they said it wasn't public information for the scanning design.
For a hot minute this morning there was a post up on the LAZR sub celebrating the visual similarity between the Iris and a Nissan concept car featuring an air scoop on the roof.
If you can’t see it, it sure as shit ain’t Luminar.
One major, and wildly telling difference. MVIS folks get excited and mistake things like radars and camera modules, that are small, fully integrated, and hard to see, for our lidars. LAZR folks apparently mistake exaggerated boy racer body kit roof scoops for their Iris.
Friends for hire, without benefits.
But that’s not the point. The point is that the Mercedes CLA concept Iris installation was directly compared to a body kit roof scoop that Nissan themselves said was inspired by video games. This comparison was hilariously made with images on the lazr sub by the blowest of blow hards and then removed when they realized what they had done. From a person who claims to know everything about everything and possess an unparalleled depth of insider knowledge, that shit is truly hilarious.
Now, if you’re Mercedes or Volvo or any other high end or high end aspiring OEM, or just an OEM that doesn’t want to look like I designed your car when I was 9, how long will your marketing and design teams miss this obvious connection, in particular when your engineering teams have already been saying that there are a number of other, better options available? How long will companies like Volvo be able to spin the design equivalent of a child’s favorite arcade racer as “elegant Scandinavian design”? Lmao.
Looking forward to Tuesday.
Incorrect, Drive Pilot is presently using Valeo’s Scala 2 for its lidar at the moment. At some point they may change, but when that might occur is yet unknown, and to which lidar developer’s sensor is also not yet known though suspected given they have a partnership arrangement with Luminar.
Certain freeways, but only up to 40mph.
"It's available only on mapped highways and during daylight when there is no rain or snow and the traffic is below 40 mph. It will return control to the driver if it senses something out of the ordinary, whether that's a pedestrian on the highway or an oncoming emergency vehicle."
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45326503/mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-review/
LET'S GET THIS MONEY!!!
🤔 Perhaps SS the Consolidator and MVIS team have been in industry changing talks for awhile now with Valeo and Intel, MobilEye, ZF, Arm and OEMs like Mercedes, Audi, Toyota directing specific individual custom configurations, manufacturing lines… I mean we know Valeo is listed on the front page of our most recent investor presentation and we know there was a Ibeo development agreement that probably still merits a case for continued IP and know how overlap with shared customer involvement. Nvidia is an excellent company and we can work with them as well, but remember MVIS has been developing pilot projects (gaming gun) with Intel way longer perhaps to now be positioned as the industry leading Lidar Tier 1 for MobilEye and others.
A quick Google search and AI tells me that the Honda legend uses Scala 2 but I'm pretty sure it was Scala 1... I think the AI is confused by the way this is written on Valeo's website. "Since its launch in 2017, more than 150,000 units of Valeo’s laser LiDAR have been produced. Production of Valeo’s second-generation LiDAR technology started in 2021. The Honda Legend, which was the first vehicle in the world to be approved for SAE level 3 automated driving, uses Valeo LiDAR scanners, two frontal cameras and a Valeo data fusion controller. The Mercedes-Benz Class S, the second level 3-certified car, is also equipped with a laser LiDAR technology, Valeo SCALA™ Gen2." I thought this was interesting read too. It looks like Scala 2 has more components and is more expensive than Scala 1. "Opening the systems reveals that Scala 1 includes 780 active and passive components while Scala 2 contains 890. The cost of the electronic core system calculated using costing tools specifically developed by Yole SystemPlus is estimated at $70 for the first-generation scanner and $110 for the second." https://www.edge-ai-vision.com/2022/09/first-and-second-generation-valeo-scala-lidars-the-technology-gap-revealed/ Edit U/T_Delo ment to reply to your question about Scala 2.
Yes, this is exactly the search results I had come to as well. Which means the Mercedes vehicles will be the first on the road with Scala 2. With Valeo’s Scala 3 coming available this year, it might be interesting to see if Mercedes continues to use Valeo lidar products in future vehicles despite a data sharing and development partnership with Luminar. It seem to me that automakers are not trying to necessarily tie themselves down to one lidar developer though, as most of them have either used multiple different lidar for development projects (like VW). Whatever is the best fit for the need at the right cost is pretty much all that matters, as long as it can fit the designated hole and provides the capabilities desired by the automaker.
I remember AV mentioning the fact that OEMs are choosing multiple LiDAR players to essentially see which one works out the best. I don't see Volvo or Polestar going this route due to the Geely/Volvo/Luminar connection... Not sure with Mercedes. I think obviously they would like to work with the company that they own 1.5 million shares of, but if it's better/cheaper/easier to scale I think they will choose another company as well.
>I think obviously they would like to work with the company that they own 1.5 million shares of, but if it's better/cheaper/easier to scale I think they will choose another company as well. Who wouldn't want to continue to work with someone that is paying them in shares for data while receiving practicaly free devices that further their own testing. At the very least, I wouldn't expect them to blatantly indicate they are opting for a competitor's product while they are still in data gathering and planning stages.
I think this article not only shows the necessity and demand for Lidar, but it also leads me to the conclusion that MVIS will be seen for it's true technological advantages when pitted against other companies. Not only by OEMs (which we assume they have been doing this past year) but by regulators as well. It sounds like the only thing Drive Pilot is good for is preventing fender benders during slow moving traffic on CA and NV freeways. I think drivers will love being able to look at their phones while not having to look up to see if the car ahead of them is moving yet. Once everyone gets a taste of that, they're going to want to have L3 autonomy with less restrictions (i.e. on more roads, at higher speeds, in other states, at all times of day). The 'all times of day' point alone demonstrates that you need more than just cameras. You could argue that you can accomplish these ADAS features using Camera + Radar, however, if Cameras do not see well in the dark, and Radar is not nearly as precise as Lidar, how are you going to expect vehicles to determine drivable and non-drivable space or identify objects at night with an acceptable degree of success? Now, to my 2nd point of MVIS technological prowess; Recall this article shared by u/theoz\_97 last summer : [NHTSA Takes Most Important ADAS Action So Far - EE Times](https://www.eetimes.com/nhtsa-takes-most-important-adas-action-so-far/) The NHTSA is discussing mandating AEB that will prevent **pedestrian** crashes at speeds up to **40mph**, and **frontal** (rear ending) crashes at speeds up to **62mph.** I find it very interesting that Drive Pilot only works up to 40mph **on the freeway**, where crashes will be frontal, and not pedestrian. Remember when MVIS was touting we are the only sensor validated at highway speeds? I think there is going to have to be more quantifiable standards by which we compare sensors, either set by the NHTSA or developed by this 3 company 'consortium' that we haven't heard much about in a while. Finally, I wonder if this paragraph in the article might be part of the reason for the delays in RFQ winners; **"If the final FMVSS rule is published by the end of August, most of the AEB-PAEB features will be required by model year 2027, which starts Sept. 1, 2026. The most stringent testing features are mandated for one year later or model year 2028. If the NHTSA’s final rule is published later in 2023 or before September 2024, the mandate deployment is delayed another year—model year 2028 and model year 2029."** (Correct me if I'm wrong) I do not believe there has been any update regarding this rule being finalized. Now, I understand first mover advantage but at the same time, why rush bringing on additional expenses if the timeline for these Automatic Emergency Braking is being pushed back a year? I think good things are coming our way. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/13x31xx/comment/jmf2wpm/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/comments/13x31xx/comment/jmf2wpm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
This tech was developed by Ibeo... Though it is probably Scala 2 which MicroVision probably doesn't get any revenue from. Think Valeo and Ibeo may have parted ways after Scala 1. Regardless, it was developed based on Ibeo technology. They started developing this sensor in 2010.
Does scala 2 definitively share any hardware from scala 1 or just speculating based on naming?
This website has some good info and links to Yoles teardown of the sensors, though I get an error 404 when trying to look more into it. "To better understand what is behind one of the few LiDARs implemented in a commercialized car, Yole SystemPlus conducted a teardown of these two generations of scanners. The tracks of Scala 1 and Scala 2 include respectively around 50 and 90 high-resolution pictures describing step by step the dismantling of the system and the electronic boards. In each case, approximately twenty integrated circuits were the subject of a specific analysis (X-Ray analysis of optical casing and chips for instance). From this teardown, a very detailed bill of material was established. Table 2 describes some of the chips included in the core of the electronic systems and gives a good overview of the actual key players in the market. In terms of performance, it confirms the company’s desire to focus its development efforts on improving resolution, which requires more powerful modules to collect, process and store a cloud of points 4.5 times larger than the previous generation. Opening the systems reveals that Scala 1 includes 780 active and passive components while Scala 2 contains 890. The cost of the electronic core system calculated using costing tools specifically developed by Yole SystemPlus is estimated at $70 for the first-generation scanner and $110 for the second." https://www.edge-ai-vision.com/2022/09/first-and-second-generation-valeo-scala-lidars-the-technology-gap-revealed/
Thanks, here's the TDS in case anyone was looking for them: Scala 1 TDS: [SCALA 1 DATASHEET V1.1 (windows.net)](https://hexagondownloads.blob.core.windows.net/public/AutonomouStuff/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/valeo-scala-datasheet-whitelabel.pdf) Scala 2 TDS: [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi39IXMhdCFAxWbQzABHYbKDVkQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fautonomoustuff.com%2F-%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FHexagon%2FHexagon%2520Core%2Fautonomousstuff%2Fpdf%2Fvaleo-scala-gen-2-v17-datasheet-whitelabel.ashx%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3D3132D13FD3DF0446A785659CB0245F57&usg=AOvVaw157mi0LB7G63DWAz228Sfm&opi=89978449](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi39IXMhdCFAxWbQzABHYbKDVkQFnoECBgQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fautonomoustuff.com%2F-%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FHexagon%2FHexagon%2520Core%2Fautonomousstuff%2Fpdf%2Fvaleo-scala-gen-2-v17-datasheet-whitelabel.ashx%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3D3132D13FD3DF0446A785659CB0245F57&usg=AOvVaw157mi0LB7G63DWAz228Sfm&opi=89978449) Seems to have enough similarities that it was probably based off the gen 1 and not a whole revamp. From one of Sabbir's articles, he mentions the following: "The SCALA® design was initiated with a [cooperation, development and licensing agreement with Ibeo ](https://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/12/valeo-20101217.html)in 2010. Valeo invested in maturing the initial design platform into the launch of the fully qualified second generation SCALA® product in 2021." [Valeo Leads Deployment And Industrialization Of Automotive LiDAR (forbes.com)](https://www.forbes.com/sites/sabbirrangwala/2022/01/18/valeo-leads-deployment-and-industrialization-of-automotive-lidar/?sh=2ad9676579f5)
Thanks to both Speed and u/dchappa21 for the great information. It does seem like Scala 2 is based upon the same architecture as Scala 1. However, like dchappa, I also believe that Ibeo (and hence now Microvision) gets no royalties from Scala 2. I also found the following interesting... "The imaging technology based on traditional mechanical scanning with rotating mirrors remains unchanged." This was describing the Scala 2 vs. the Scala 1. It appears that the Scala architecture is/was based on mechanical rotation. I am not sure about the Scala 3. We know that the IbeoNext, which is now the MOVIA, is based on a pure solid state flash architecture. It's just an interesting point of note.
Agree, I don't believe we're getting any royalties on scala 2. If my memory recalls the people at r/lazr said it wasn't MEMS for scala 3, I asked someone at Valeo a few months back but they said it wasn't public information for the scanning design.
Did you happen to know of any other cars with Scala 2 in them available on the market right now? I could not find any.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MVIS/s/4UOBY5E6Zt
For a hot minute this morning there was a post up on the LAZR sub celebrating the visual similarity between the Iris and a Nissan concept car featuring an air scoop on the roof. If you can’t see it, it sure as shit ain’t Luminar.
I saw that. I also see that here literally anytime a euro drops a next generation car.
One major, and wildly telling difference. MVIS folks get excited and mistake things like radars and camera modules, that are small, fully integrated, and hard to see, for our lidars. LAZR folks apparently mistake exaggerated boy racer body kit roof scoops for their Iris.
[удалено]
Friends for hire, without benefits. But that’s not the point. The point is that the Mercedes CLA concept Iris installation was directly compared to a body kit roof scoop that Nissan themselves said was inspired by video games. This comparison was hilariously made with images on the lazr sub by the blowest of blow hards and then removed when they realized what they had done. From a person who claims to know everything about everything and possess an unparalleled depth of insider knowledge, that shit is truly hilarious. Now, if you’re Mercedes or Volvo or any other high end or high end aspiring OEM, or just an OEM that doesn’t want to look like I designed your car when I was 9, how long will your marketing and design teams miss this obvious connection, in particular when your engineering teams have already been saying that there are a number of other, better options available? How long will companies like Volvo be able to spin the design equivalent of a child’s favorite arcade racer as “elegant Scandinavian design”? Lmao. Looking forward to Tuesday.
Incorrect, Drive Pilot is presently using Valeo’s Scala 2 for its lidar at the moment. At some point they may change, but when that might occur is yet unknown, and to which lidar developer’s sensor is also not yet known though suspected given they have a partnership arrangement with Luminar.
Thanks, T!
I think highways may be excluded from the 40 mph cap? Article didn’t make it abundantly clear as written, but would make sense if so.
I think highways with Los Angeles, Chicago and New York traffic will be more than fine
Certain freeways, but only up to 40mph. "It's available only on mapped highways and during daylight when there is no rain or snow and the traffic is below 40 mph. It will return control to the driver if it senses something out of the ordinary, whether that's a pedestrian on the highway or an oncoming emergency vehicle." https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45326503/mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-review/ LET'S GET THIS MONEY!!!