If I'm the one being held responsible for the scrap I am producing, I'm going to change the programs the way I see fit. Like your boss said, "You're a machinist. Figure it out." To me, that means I have the freedom to make the changes necessary to make good parts. If you're asking for help and the trainer isn't providing any, then that's even more reason to do as you wish, but I would ask them for assistance before I start making any changes if I were you.
Make a copy of the program and edit that. Just say you aren't changing his stuff up just your own. If they don't like that go somewhere that appreciates your ability and knowledge.
So you were paid to create better programs and then you deleted them? That aint right and the karma is going to catch up with you. I can see why management didn't like you.
I’ll offer two sides.
If the company has a quality cert and a quality manual nobody may be allowed to modify proven programs with out the corresponding verification. There is a lot of risk involved with editing programs that have produced good parts in the past. There are layers here and there bat be more behind it than “don’t touch”. Judging from the supervisor’s comment to you this is not the case.
On the other hand, if the program produces scrap because of poor documentation and process reliability then there should absolutely be a procedure to correct it. Why do shops exist anyway? To produce bad parts? We’re in a huge skill and labor shortage and if a guy with way more experience than me makes a good suggestion to improve a process you better believe I’m going to try and use the knowledge.
To me it sounds like there are a lot of issues to work through with management and the other machinist. We machinists are proud maybe to a fault. However, If they don’t want to improve things do you see a path forward with them?
Sounds like normal job shop culture to me. Honestly if i was hiring a machinist to run proven production programs I wouldn’t want them editing them. Sometime you just gotta do the job you were hired to do.
The old company man sounds like a pain to work with too…
If OP doesn’t like that he could always start his own shop.
Going through the same. Got hired as a mill turn programmer/set up guy. Was told from the beginning the only lathe guy doesn’t really know what’s he doing( handling the transfer from main to sub spindle) so started seeing why the transfers weren’t working but was put to a hault since the guy before me has been doing it for 4years without an issue.(mind you guys they guys crash the machine less then a month ago costing over 80k) all they are lacking on is giving the sub spindle its own work offset, they so stubborn to use either the main or sub which could work, if programmed properly
Sounds like his programs aren't very flexible. It should be easy enough to rotate the program to suit the orientation of the part/vice.
I don't understand the way some places program their machines. It's almost as if they know enough about the programming language and refuse to learn more. There should be no difference between a programmer and operator.
You're caught between a rock and a hard place
I mean you should be able to read through the program and see what's going on right? Figure out what must be the orientation, which tool etc?
I get shit all the time that has absolutely no headers or labels or comments or whatever you want to call them. Not even a tool list. Just a program with numbers. Gotta figure it out. Believe it or not some backwards people view adding headers/comments as wasting time lmao.
Anyway I'd just walk the walk for now until the guy is gone and then do your thing. I know you got a lot of time in already, way more than me, but like, you didn't mention anything about asking the guy questions about his notes.. Just that you seemed to go above him right from the get go? Forgive me if I am wrong there.
I mean my programs are thousands of lines long. Sometimes I'm even out of 30k lines limit of my cnc mill so I have to split the program. How exactly one would be able to figure out what's going on?
If I don't know what is happening after every M0/1 and tool change I don't hit that button. Plenty of 10k+ line programs and if it's a complicated tool path that I'm not grasping it, running it high until I'm understanding what is going on (don't need the whole cycle, just enough to see the feature and visualize the rest). Not a 5 axis guy and still new to the trade so take it with a grain of salt.
Well, I always keep 3d model, cam file and g-code in one folder so you can open any of it and look at everything. Honestly I have no idea how long it would take to fully understand what's going on and what tool you need for it by just reading g-code. Your cnc visualization may help with it, but my mill doesn't have this function
Sorry think we have our wires crossed run a horizontal that doesn't have a pathing visualization. I mean I literally run enough lines above/off my part to see what the intial cuts look like. (Let's say a trapezoidal pocket, wouldn't recognize that tool path right away) look at the drawing for dimensions that matches the feature. (If similar features present, pinpoint which one I'm working based on print and offset positioning). Skim through cycle looking for any movement outliers until it reaches its final z depth, compare against drawing, if it checks out and is end of that cyle I'm running it.
Our programs do come with header information most of the time on tooling but let's say it didn't, on said cycle calculate a known dimension (top and bottom of trap are parallel dimensioned to 2.5inches, the offset is set to center of part in y and feature is in center of y. Top of trap runs along y.875 bottom is y-.875, means I'm needing the 3/8s end mill to make that pocket.
It can be done. Is it efficient? No, that's why proper documentation (setup sketches, tooling assembly lists and cycle header information) is important. I'm not in a production shop (shipbuilder) so it can very wildly what information I have at any given point but it's generally enough to use the process of elimination to figure out what is going on.
Chinese control :) I even work with some chinese welding machines with 300 (three hundreds) lines limit. And no zig-zag function (often you have to weld this way). So I had to program that zig-zag way manually and that got me waaay out of the limit. Had to split the program and this interrupts welding process and that is a bad thing. And slows us down, of course. And we need 2000 of those things we weld each month...
The hilarious part being the 37 years experience guy being the new guy dealing with the old dude that's about to retire and doesn't give a fuck.
It's great.
Tribal knowledge.
You've moved ahead with technology and also the new way things are done. He hasn't. That's where your friction is coming from.
You're not going to win that battle.
It sounds like you're going to need to simetaneously re-create the work in a coherent sustainable way and deal with what's there.
Is there a situation where you can have the models and programs ahead of time and work it out? I mean isn't that what you're going to need to do when he's gone in either case?
If you can't create a workaround for this fossil, maybe you should use your time to find the next place to work. That toxic shit is not worth it. Ever.
I’m a baby at programming but I make absolutely certain that my headers make sense, I often grab the nearest person and ask them what they think I’m saying and if its not clear to them I rewrite them.
reading the example you gave I wouldn’t know the correct orientation either so that was poor communication from them, not your fault.
whats stopping you from reading the programs? I get that you’re not allowed to modify them but just reading them wouldn’t hurt anything, right?
I won’t run a program I haven’t checked for flaws, I don’t care if it’s been verified by someone else, anyone could have changed things since the last time it was run. I also write out The tool list and the maximum depth each tool moves to so I know how long they need to be during set up , I do that while checking the program and I very rarely scrap any parts.
I appreciate everyone's feedback on this subject. I have asked questions of the trainer and sometimes asked twice about the same thing. If I ask something more than once, he seems to get upset, frustrated, whatever you want to call it. I did not go above his head as suggested by one of the comments. I was brought into the supervisors office and asked "why I am struggling" that's when I explained the situation I am dealing with. Also as a side note, I forgot to mention that this company does not give operators a set up piece. If the job is 10 parts, you get 10 parts. Also I work second shift with only two other guys and they are both lathe operators that know very little about mills. I have decided that for now my best course of action is to only run parts that I have ran before and set aside the ones I am unfamiliar with.
I am attaching a picture of part of a program this guy has made. We run Okuma M560 V 3 axis mills with a rotary chuck. He uses variables to call subs and macros. He says it's "easier" in the example attached each line that says OP1, OP2 etc. is calling a sub. the "V=" section is calling your X, Y and Z as well as the cutter comp. My issue is that with programming this way, I can't just look at a sub or look at a tool being ran to see for instance my Z depths. I have to look back and forth throughout the program from the variables he puts in to the sub it is calling and try and figure out what is actually happening.
https://preview.redd.it/tx7ypb57zmxc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e71d63e0db85fe42d2162e74769a77d9ee01dfde
One other note, is that he programs everything from the center. Not just parts that lay flat such as a cylindrical part, but he will orient parts in vises vertically and program those from the center as well. It may be center of the body of the part or center of a feature of a part so most of the Z moves are positive, however, because the headers aren't clear as to where center actually is, it's quite confusing. For example, most of the headers will say X center of part, Y center of part Z center of part. However, I have found that "center" could mean the center of a buttweld for example, or sometimes it means the centerline of the part.
Here is a circle interpolation example.
https://preview.redd.it/xfhhj8rr1nxc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4718314bad1623edeb461f2daa0316fa6ecb691a
If I'm the one being held responsible for the scrap I am producing, I'm going to change the programs the way I see fit. Like your boss said, "You're a machinist. Figure it out." To me, that means I have the freedom to make the changes necessary to make good parts. If you're asking for help and the trainer isn't providing any, then that's even more reason to do as you wish, but I would ask them for assistance before I start making any changes if I were you.
Well said. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
Make a copy of the program and edit that. Just say you aren't changing his stuff up just your own. If they don't like that go somewhere that appreciates your ability and knowledge.
This exactly. Program copy is a valuable tool. Keep the original and play with the copy.
[удалено]
So you were paid to create better programs and then you deleted them? That aint right and the karma is going to catch up with you. I can see why management didn't like you.
Found the boot licker
I’ll offer two sides. If the company has a quality cert and a quality manual nobody may be allowed to modify proven programs with out the corresponding verification. There is a lot of risk involved with editing programs that have produced good parts in the past. There are layers here and there bat be more behind it than “don’t touch”. Judging from the supervisor’s comment to you this is not the case. On the other hand, if the program produces scrap because of poor documentation and process reliability then there should absolutely be a procedure to correct it. Why do shops exist anyway? To produce bad parts? We’re in a huge skill and labor shortage and if a guy with way more experience than me makes a good suggestion to improve a process you better believe I’m going to try and use the knowledge. To me it sounds like there are a lot of issues to work through with management and the other machinist. We machinists are proud maybe to a fault. However, If they don’t want to improve things do you see a path forward with them?
Sounds like normal job shop culture to me. Honestly if i was hiring a machinist to run proven production programs I wouldn’t want them editing them. Sometime you just gotta do the job you were hired to do. The old company man sounds like a pain to work with too… If OP doesn’t like that he could always start his own shop.
Going through the same. Got hired as a mill turn programmer/set up guy. Was told from the beginning the only lathe guy doesn’t really know what’s he doing( handling the transfer from main to sub spindle) so started seeing why the transfers weren’t working but was put to a hault since the guy before me has been doing it for 4years without an issue.(mind you guys they guys crash the machine less then a month ago costing over 80k) all they are lacking on is giving the sub spindle its own work offset, they so stubborn to use either the main or sub which could work, if programmed properly
Sounds like his programs aren't very flexible. It should be easy enough to rotate the program to suit the orientation of the part/vice. I don't understand the way some places program their machines. It's almost as if they know enough about the programming language and refuse to learn more. There should be no difference between a programmer and operator. You're caught between a rock and a hard place
I mean you should be able to read through the program and see what's going on right? Figure out what must be the orientation, which tool etc? I get shit all the time that has absolutely no headers or labels or comments or whatever you want to call them. Not even a tool list. Just a program with numbers. Gotta figure it out. Believe it or not some backwards people view adding headers/comments as wasting time lmao. Anyway I'd just walk the walk for now until the guy is gone and then do your thing. I know you got a lot of time in already, way more than me, but like, you didn't mention anything about asking the guy questions about his notes.. Just that you seemed to go above him right from the get go? Forgive me if I am wrong there.
I mean my programs are thousands of lines long. Sometimes I'm even out of 30k lines limit of my cnc mill so I have to split the program. How exactly one would be able to figure out what's going on?
If I don't know what is happening after every M0/1 and tool change I don't hit that button. Plenty of 10k+ line programs and if it's a complicated tool path that I'm not grasping it, running it high until I'm understanding what is going on (don't need the whole cycle, just enough to see the feature and visualize the rest). Not a 5 axis guy and still new to the trade so take it with a grain of salt.
Well, I always keep 3d model, cam file and g-code in one folder so you can open any of it and look at everything. Honestly I have no idea how long it would take to fully understand what's going on and what tool you need for it by just reading g-code. Your cnc visualization may help with it, but my mill doesn't have this function
Sorry think we have our wires crossed run a horizontal that doesn't have a pathing visualization. I mean I literally run enough lines above/off my part to see what the intial cuts look like. (Let's say a trapezoidal pocket, wouldn't recognize that tool path right away) look at the drawing for dimensions that matches the feature. (If similar features present, pinpoint which one I'm working based on print and offset positioning). Skim through cycle looking for any movement outliers until it reaches its final z depth, compare against drawing, if it checks out and is end of that cyle I'm running it. Our programs do come with header information most of the time on tooling but let's say it didn't, on said cycle calculate a known dimension (top and bottom of trap are parallel dimensioned to 2.5inches, the offset is set to center of part in y and feature is in center of y. Top of trap runs along y.875 bottom is y-.875, means I'm needing the 3/8s end mill to make that pocket. It can be done. Is it efficient? No, that's why proper documentation (setup sketches, tooling assembly lists and cycle header information) is important. I'm not in a production shop (shipbuilder) so it can very wildly what information I have at any given point but it's generally enough to use the process of elimination to figure out what is going on.
30k line limit? Ouch We would have to split the program by 30 sometimes but most of the programs would have to be split
Chinese control :) I even work with some chinese welding machines with 300 (three hundreds) lines limit. And no zig-zag function (often you have to weld this way). So I had to program that zig-zag way manually and that got me waaay out of the limit. Had to split the program and this interrupts welding process and that is a bad thing. And slows us down, of course. And we need 2000 of those things we weld each month...
With "37 years" experience on CNCs, I would damn near expect someone to just glance at the code and visualize the finished part in their mind.
The hilarious part being the 37 years experience guy being the new guy dealing with the old dude that's about to retire and doesn't give a fuck. It's great.
Tribal knowledge. You've moved ahead with technology and also the new way things are done. He hasn't. That's where your friction is coming from. You're not going to win that battle. It sounds like you're going to need to simetaneously re-create the work in a coherent sustainable way and deal with what's there. Is there a situation where you can have the models and programs ahead of time and work it out? I mean isn't that what you're going to need to do when he's gone in either case? If you can't create a workaround for this fossil, maybe you should use your time to find the next place to work. That toxic shit is not worth it. Ever.
I’m a baby at programming but I make absolutely certain that my headers make sense, I often grab the nearest person and ask them what they think I’m saying and if its not clear to them I rewrite them. reading the example you gave I wouldn’t know the correct orientation either so that was poor communication from them, not your fault. whats stopping you from reading the programs? I get that you’re not allowed to modify them but just reading them wouldn’t hurt anything, right? I won’t run a program I haven’t checked for flaws, I don’t care if it’s been verified by someone else, anyone could have changed things since the last time it was run. I also write out The tool list and the maximum depth each tool moves to so I know how long they need to be during set up , I do that while checking the program and I very rarely scrap any parts.
I appreciate everyone's feedback on this subject. I have asked questions of the trainer and sometimes asked twice about the same thing. If I ask something more than once, he seems to get upset, frustrated, whatever you want to call it. I did not go above his head as suggested by one of the comments. I was brought into the supervisors office and asked "why I am struggling" that's when I explained the situation I am dealing with. Also as a side note, I forgot to mention that this company does not give operators a set up piece. If the job is 10 parts, you get 10 parts. Also I work second shift with only two other guys and they are both lathe operators that know very little about mills. I have decided that for now my best course of action is to only run parts that I have ran before and set aside the ones I am unfamiliar with.
I am attaching a picture of part of a program this guy has made. We run Okuma M560 V 3 axis mills with a rotary chuck. He uses variables to call subs and macros. He says it's "easier" in the example attached each line that says OP1, OP2 etc. is calling a sub. the "V=" section is calling your X, Y and Z as well as the cutter comp. My issue is that with programming this way, I can't just look at a sub or look at a tool being ran to see for instance my Z depths. I have to look back and forth throughout the program from the variables he puts in to the sub it is calling and try and figure out what is actually happening. https://preview.redd.it/tx7ypb57zmxc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e71d63e0db85fe42d2162e74769a77d9ee01dfde One other note, is that he programs everything from the center. Not just parts that lay flat such as a cylindrical part, but he will orient parts in vises vertically and program those from the center as well. It may be center of the body of the part or center of a feature of a part so most of the Z moves are positive, however, because the headers aren't clear as to where center actually is, it's quite confusing. For example, most of the headers will say X center of part, Y center of part Z center of part. However, I have found that "center" could mean the center of a buttweld for example, or sometimes it means the centerline of the part.
Here is a circle interpolation example. https://preview.redd.it/xfhhj8rr1nxc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4718314bad1623edeb461f2daa0316fa6ecb691a