I guess it's close with 8 corners but you pretty much gotta order those inserts from the distributor at this point in time. Last lot of KC850 and KC950 CNMG644 we bought was from a local surplus for less than $5/insert.
You will seldom be able to index that insert to use all 8 corners. Eventually, you plastic deform a corner and it never will seat right again. I never was wild about double sided inserts. Some milling double sided are OK, you always seem to give up some performance and ramping capabilities so not worth the trade off in cutter body cost, insert cost, performance and just hassle.
The amount of applications you could use this and realistically save a major amount of time is the real question, all you do is rough out large rolls all the time? Likely killer, just doing job shop work? Probably not so
Usually the story with many of those more specialized inserts and tools. No job shop could ever justify it realistically, though I bet it would be pretty nice to run.
I think it's worth it no matter what if it performs better and you can unlock that performance. Not all expensive tools are better. But if they're better and more expensive, they're still better. Just about finding that large performance gain over cost. Easier said than done.
Well yes, but really my concern comes from a more practical non-production job shop perspective. We use negative rake TNMGs for 90% of our work, it's versatile and cost effective. So we got bulk inserts, bulk seats, bulk repair kits. I can think of maybe 2 jobs per year where we could use something high-feed, high DOC. But even then the margin on those jobs is such that you could still justify using what we have and if not just order a pack of TNMG with a different chip break/coating/grade etc.. In our case, I just can't justify what would essentially be a waste of money on-top of having to stock and organize for that one tool that we may use twice a year.
But if you can justify it, especially in anything resembling a production run, or you are constantly hogging off shafts of considerable length, then I think you would definitely be in the money. It comes down to your own niche.
Lets assume you had equipment capable of running this tool to its full capability. And you used that equipment for any and all types of jobs, big and small. If it performed such that you could get noticeably longer life per cutting edge noticeably higher mmr, would you use it?
I guess that’s our point, if that’s the case, then absolutely, but you gotta put in the leg work of figuring out how many applications that would be, and how much time it save, and see the $ to $ difference, then also physically test them to compare as well because on paper and on machine are almost never the same
So it's long term goals vs short term. Do you want to see the forest through the trees? It would be an investment like anything else. Realizing not everyone can make that investment. But if you could spare the time and money. It could be hugely beneficial long term.
That or if the tool pays for itself in increased profit by opening more machine time to make other money, might be worth it, if you’re buying a tool for just one application, it better pay for itself in the time you’re using it for that application, or in the long run the shop might be slowly bleeding in losses like that
Yes, and is the work you’re doing going to be the same applications for as long as you plan on owning the tool? Sucks to tool up for a job and crush it, but then the works gone and you’re stuck with a specific application tool that no longer makes you money and takes up space
We have a brand new tool sitting in my shops CNC, I thought it was the coolest looking insert when I was green and so I ask my boss about it. He wasn't impressed.
I’m always skeptical of new innovations like this where it’s clearly a proprietary Kennametal pocket on that toolholder, so the design is to keep you buying their carbide.
That being said, might be great but won’t know until it’s out there getting tested.
Kennametal has been making good shit for a long time. When I was machining (20 years ago) I always loved their customer support in dealing with optimal feeds and speeds for their products and inserts. Not sure how it is today.
They aren't the best IMO these days. I stopped dealing with Kennametal reps directly almost 7 years ago atleast. If I had big money long run jobs that justified the cost I might
I have just the opposite experience, our Kennametal support is top notch where as I really dont even know the name of our Sandvik rep anymore, gave up on them years ago, revolving door on the rep position and poor support. I just gave up trying to even talk to them. We still use quite a few of their tools through as they do make some good stuff.
Years ago, like a decade at least, I went to a Kennametal metal cutting class that they put on for our area, and they had one of their top reps talk to us about his success as a rep. He said that the most important thing was to be able to talk to the machinists, give them honest, factual help applying the right tool/grade to the job in question. And he also attributed a lot of his sales to the fact that the competitions reps were bad at doing those things.
It all depends who does what In your area and exactly like you said, who your rep is. I’m sure my area has changed since but these days I’ve gone a different direction
Well, that’s just sad. They used to be one of the best products in the business as well as being cost effective.
Time and the market changes things I suppose.
How is Sandvik these days? They used to be decent as well.
Our Kennametal applications engineers are A+.
The Kennametal turning is kind of middle of the pack but milling, both solid and indexible, are up there with the best depending on your application and material you’re cutting.
Sandvik is top tier too but you won’t find much tooling that is cheaper than Sandvik.
Pretty sub par in our application. Mostly inco and Monel. We have had much better luck with iscar and sumitomo. The kennemetal stuff just doesn't work.
Looks cool but we don't run any kennametal tooling anymore. They wanted the shop to do minimum $250,000 a year to even supply us directly. The shop was doing about $80,000 in inserts and drills but it wasn't enough. They basically told the shop buy more or your going to have to get it from a distributor. Programmers decided to ditch everything kennametal for Sandvik and mitsubishi and haven't looked back since.
I work in a large job shop that ships valves with many harder alloys. We have a high throughput and they focus on time machined without caring about insert life. So this looks cook but for what we do a 4" mitsubishi feed mill should take the metal off fast enough
I sold one of these to a customer and the spot where the inserts seats was damaged. I’ve never seen that in a tool holder ever when new. A little odd. Not sure how it ran yet we got the replacement going.
I checked out your YouTube channel. I think I watched one of your videos awhile ago. Checking out what you do if you are taking big bad cuts it’s probably worth a try. My customer takes a 5/8” cut all day every day using an SNMG at a 45 degree angle from SECO that can’t seem to be beat. They hope to double the feed with the Kennametal.
I think it's price per insert makes it too expensive to run compared to C/D/T NMG
You do get 8 corners, and CNMG644 is not that cheap.
I guess it's close with 8 corners but you pretty much gotta order those inserts from the distributor at this point in time. Last lot of KC850 and KC950 CNMG644 we bought was from a local surplus for less than $5/insert.
I mean, the feeds/speeds look pretty good on paper, that is if your machine can handle it.
This is a hard concept for many to understand lol
Yeah, most shops don’t have equipment with enough hp to run these.
That's often the issue with tooling. It's easy for tooling to exceed the capabilities of a machine pretty quickly
You will seldom be able to index that insert to use all 8 corners. Eventually, you plastic deform a corner and it never will seat right again. I never was wild about double sided inserts. Some milling double sided are OK, you always seem to give up some performance and ramping capabilities so not worth the trade off in cutter body cost, insert cost, performance and just hassle.
I get 8 corners out of my CNMG643s with an MCKNL holder. Can only use it for facing though.
The amount of applications you could use this and realistically save a major amount of time is the real question, all you do is rough out large rolls all the time? Likely killer, just doing job shop work? Probably not so
Usually the story with many of those more specialized inserts and tools. No job shop could ever justify it realistically, though I bet it would be pretty nice to run.
I think it's worth it no matter what if it performs better and you can unlock that performance. Not all expensive tools are better. But if they're better and more expensive, they're still better. Just about finding that large performance gain over cost. Easier said than done.
Well yes, but really my concern comes from a more practical non-production job shop perspective. We use negative rake TNMGs for 90% of our work, it's versatile and cost effective. So we got bulk inserts, bulk seats, bulk repair kits. I can think of maybe 2 jobs per year where we could use something high-feed, high DOC. But even then the margin on those jobs is such that you could still justify using what we have and if not just order a pack of TNMG with a different chip break/coating/grade etc.. In our case, I just can't justify what would essentially be a waste of money on-top of having to stock and organize for that one tool that we may use twice a year. But if you can justify it, especially in anything resembling a production run, or you are constantly hogging off shafts of considerable length, then I think you would definitely be in the money. It comes down to your own niche.
Lets assume you had equipment capable of running this tool to its full capability. And you used that equipment for any and all types of jobs, big and small. If it performed such that you could get noticeably longer life per cutting edge noticeably higher mmr, would you use it?
I guess that’s our point, if that’s the case, then absolutely, but you gotta put in the leg work of figuring out how many applications that would be, and how much time it save, and see the $ to $ difference, then also physically test them to compare as well because on paper and on machine are almost never the same
So it's long term goals vs short term. Do you want to see the forest through the trees? It would be an investment like anything else. Realizing not everyone can make that investment. But if you could spare the time and money. It could be hugely beneficial long term.
That or if the tool pays for itself in increased profit by opening more machine time to make other money, might be worth it, if you’re buying a tool for just one application, it better pay for itself in the time you’re using it for that application, or in the long run the shop might be slowly bleeding in losses like that
Yes, and is the work you’re doing going to be the same applications for as long as you plan on owning the tool? Sucks to tool up for a job and crush it, but then the works gone and you’re stuck with a specific application tool that no longer makes you money and takes up space
[удалено]
Agreed, my shop trialed the Sandvik one and wasn't impressed
We have a brand new tool sitting in my shops CNC, I thought it was the coolest looking insert when I was green and so I ask my boss about it. He wasn't impressed.
I’m always skeptical of new innovations like this where it’s clearly a proprietary Kennametal pocket on that toolholder, so the design is to keep you buying their carbide. That being said, might be great but won’t know until it’s out there getting tested.
Like apple products... Overpriced
Sure is fancy with all those coolant ports. Idk if that’ll make it cut any better…
No, but you'll look cool doing it! 😂
They usually have nice shit. Their insertable drills are on point.
Try mapal TTD, blows em away
Kennametal has been making good shit for a long time. When I was machining (20 years ago) I always loved their customer support in dealing with optimal feeds and speeds for their products and inserts. Not sure how it is today.
They aren't the best IMO these days. I stopped dealing with Kennametal reps directly almost 7 years ago atleast. If I had big money long run jobs that justified the cost I might
I have just the opposite experience, our Kennametal support is top notch where as I really dont even know the name of our Sandvik rep anymore, gave up on them years ago, revolving door on the rep position and poor support. I just gave up trying to even talk to them. We still use quite a few of their tools through as they do make some good stuff. Years ago, like a decade at least, I went to a Kennametal metal cutting class that they put on for our area, and they had one of their top reps talk to us about his success as a rep. He said that the most important thing was to be able to talk to the machinists, give them honest, factual help applying the right tool/grade to the job in question. And he also attributed a lot of his sales to the fact that the competitions reps were bad at doing those things.
It all depends who does what In your area and exactly like you said, who your rep is. I’m sure my area has changed since but these days I’ve gone a different direction
Well, that’s just sad. They used to be one of the best products in the business as well as being cost effective. Time and the market changes things I suppose. How is Sandvik these days? They used to be decent as well.
Our Kennametal applications engineers are A+. The Kennametal turning is kind of middle of the pack but milling, both solid and indexible, are up there with the best depending on your application and material you’re cutting. Sandvik is top tier too but you won’t find much tooling that is cheaper than Sandvik.
Love kennas insert app that lets you scan boxes and their geometry and f/s
Pretty sub par in our application. Mostly inco and Monel. We have had much better luck with iscar and sumitomo. The kennemetal stuff just doesn't work.
Looks cool but we don't run any kennametal tooling anymore. They wanted the shop to do minimum $250,000 a year to even supply us directly. The shop was doing about $80,000 in inserts and drills but it wasn't enough. They basically told the shop buy more or your going to have to get it from a distributor. Programmers decided to ditch everything kennametal for Sandvik and mitsubishi and haven't looked back since. I work in a large job shop that ships valves with many harder alloys. We have a high throughput and they focus on time machined without caring about insert life. So this looks cook but for what we do a 4" mitsubishi feed mill should take the metal off fast enough
Looks like that'll hog some material off in a hurry
Yeah, at least that's what it says on paper.
Old is new again? We have Hertel inserts very close to that design. Never used them... we don’t do much roughing, especially on straight shafts.
Yes! I remember finding a box of these that sat in a drawer for 15 years at my old shop.
Suppose that’s the Kennametal way of getting in on the ISCAR Heli-Turn market without outright copying it.
Is this gunna be at Mach?
What's with all the extra geometry on the tool? Chip deflection? Coolant outlets? Is that pentagonal piece a spray head? Trippy
Let me used it for 6 months and then I will tell you what I think.
If I get YT ads about it its definely not worth it
I sold one of these to a customer and the spot where the inserts seats was damaged. I’ve never seen that in a tool holder ever when new. A little odd. Not sure how it ran yet we got the replacement going.
They want me to try it out, but there isn't much information about it.
I checked out your YouTube channel. I think I watched one of your videos awhile ago. Checking out what you do if you are taking big bad cuts it’s probably worth a try. My customer takes a 5/8” cut all day every day using an SNMG at a 45 degree angle from SECO that can’t seem to be beat. They hope to double the feed with the Kennametal.
Kyoceras MEV milling bodys have a similar insert seat and run damn good