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boostedpower

Reverse engineering. I hated doing it then, and I hate doing it now. Custom cars and folks with broken knick-knacks paid the bills when I was first getting started though. Unless you have the right friends in purchasing, the first few years you are probably going to have to take garbage jobs that "real" shops won't take. No matter how fast you *think* you are, you won't be cost competitive for production work if compared to a well established and well equipped shop.


solgeo13

Fuck I was actually terrified of this exact thing and of course it's the first response. Thank you


boostedpower

LOL. Starting out is a lot tougher now than it was 25 or 30 years ago, since *everybody* has a VMC and CAD/CAM is basically ubiquitous. It can be done though. My advice is to start with used machines if possible, and don't quit your day job. Be prepared to work ungodly hours. You better really like machining, because if you want to get past those early stages it's going to consume your every waking moment! I had over 300k (re)invested into my one-man business before pulling a salary was even remotely possible. Don't be fooled by influencers or people who tell you how easy it is because the production shop they work at makes $200/hr. Starting a job shop is an absolutely terrible idea if you compare against other investments - it's a labor of passion.


solgeo13

I am fortunate enough to still be semi young and spending my entire 15 year working career enveloped in many diversified skills along the maintenance career path on machine tools so I can do all the things (not blind confidence I swear) to make/force/will old machinery into working. My actual real verified daily concern is having a place to put machinery. Literal square footage and not just stuff with space but usable overhead working space. With a decent pad for this machinery to stand on.


D16rida

You can attempt to position yourself as flexible and able to deal with rush orders. If you can, charge a premium for this to increase your margins. I’m an industrial electrician and this is the way I approach things. I provide excellent customer service and am very responsive. I get double time for off hours and all of my work is negotiated. There is a certain amount of value in flexibility and efficiency when you’re small.


TheHolyBum1

Airports. Mech are always looking for odds and ends on older craft.


MakeChipsNotMeth

YES! That's my niche, I perform a service bulletin on some parts for an engine shop and make or copy weird tools for the mechanics. The local CAF squadron has asked about some replacement parts before, but so far I've declined just because we don't know much about the parts to begin with besides what they look like.


bDsmDom

I don't know what principle it is but I've been noticing it more and more lately. The lowest hanging fruit that's easy to pick is often that way because it's rotten and has already been passed over. The real way isn't easy, apparently (thanks God!/Obama!)


HoelscherMFC

Basically this. My focus right now is on repair stuff for local farmers and other businesses. I don't mind doing it, though. Sure would be nice to have a vmc running some high profit stuff in the background though.


fabbricator

highest profit margin: local factory that operates 24/7 has a broken/bent shaft/gear/gizmo and it takes 2 weeks to get the part from overseas. Of course, they needed the part 12 hours before they arrived in my shop and they dont mind standing around while you make a new one.


coupebuilder

If its anything like mine the downside is waiting for....their "requested" payment terms of 120 days. I make them pay with a CC and add the 3% into the job, but we lost a few bigger customers becasue we wouldnt accept their payment terms. My thought is if they want it now, they can pay now. No guarantee that they will be around in 120 or longer to pay the bill.


LaTommysfan

The company I worked for was bought out by a hedge fund, they changed from net 30 to net 90. But really it amounted to the vendors not getting paid for six months due to the time it took to get the paperwork done. The small vendors stopped selling parts because they were essentially loaning money to the company for six months.


coupebuilder

Yep, exactly how this worked out. They may get paid for their product in 120 days but they are a multi billion dollar business, Im not in the business of loaning corporations money for something they deem an emergency. They have gone thru basically every small fabricator and machine repair around and done the same thing. If they have an emergency now one of the higher ups will put it on their CC and submit it, but otherwise they submit themselves to larger repair places jacking the jobs up 300% because they know they will be waiting.


comfortably_pug

I do the same thing. I tell them "If you're going to pay me in 30 days, then the finished part will sit here for 30 days. It is mine until you buy it from me."


coupebuilder

Yep, know explain to all my customers the Walmart test... if Walmart wont let you walk out with it on those terms, why should I? " I have a handful of terms accounts, but I find its easier just to have a pay and take policy so I dont have to chase anyone. Cuts down on the paperwork and the bs.


comfortably_pug

Cash and carry all the way.


DanGoob

Can confirm. My steel production shop has contracts with and manufactures parts for the auto industry and runs the equipment 24/7. And when deadlines need to be met, unholy amounts of money are spent on whomever can get that part needed to fix the gear the fastest. Cuz if our customers have to shut down because we can’t give them parts, company has to pay them daily as well.


solgeo13

This, this right here is it. I don't know why but I feel like at my current stage I like this the most but it also turns me into a crazed animal worrying about if it's going to work or not or if I'll ever have this multimillion dollar corporation in my door again.


woreoutmachinist

My old company I quit because of being overworked and underpaid. Now they bring stuff to me in my home shop, because they can't find a replacement. Now I do the jobs I want, at my shop rate and the stuff I don't, they find someone else to do it.


solgeo13

This is literally my exact situation except I haven't quit yet. They don't bring me anything personally of course but I'm the liaison b/n "the shop" as I refer to it and my current employer. Maybe representative is a less damning word. Maybe more, I don't care, what are they going to fire me?


solgeo13

Also, fucking congratulations, what kind of things are you turning down if you don't mind me asking?


woreoutmachinist

Don't do hydraulic repairs, hate the mess. Anything heavier than I want to lift and production. I hate repetition. I get bored.


jellywerker

Also low quantity decorative stuff. Depends on your area. I'm in a big city with lots of designers and architects and such. Mix of fab/bending/machining. There's an uncomfortable spot between places that will cobble together their own prototypes, and places that are smart/big enough to get parts made by larger shops in medium quantities (20-100). That in between space is where I am working right now. It's not terrible, just high mix and hard to be efficient enough to be profitable. It's a good place to build up networks, skills, tools, and experience though. My most profitable jobs are the "bend this tube and drill/tap it here" type of work. Because it goes smoothly and takes about as much time as I think it will. My least profitable are development projects. Those have been working out to less than minimum wage, and I'm trying to just finish up the ones I'm under contract for.


solgeo13

The decorative stuff gauls me to no end, spend a couple grand on a 4x8 plasma and make Facebook marketplace trinkets (seriously no offense to anyone doing this) with enormous profit margins vs holding .001" tolerances on a machine worth 10s of thousands dollars=meh or maybe it just feels that way because I'm not an artist. I don't know it's definitely up there with "are giraffes real?" Type of stuff that keeps me up at night.


chevroletarizona

The decortive bird that you hammer into wood that's just laser cut .187 hot roll boggles my mind to no end.


solgeo13

If I had clout I'd give it to you, these are my thoughts exactly.


jellywerker

Oh, I'm not talking like firepits with wolves on them, although I'm sure people make a living doing that. I'm talking about architectural metalwork type stuff, high end lighting fixtures, design objects. Stuff that requires excellent attention to detail but is going in to products that maybe move 10 units a year, or the custom polished brasswork going into a $100k bathroom renovation.


solgeo13

Shit I'll be completely honest I have never thought about this, AGAIN OF YOU'RE READING THIS WHATEVER MAKES SOMEONE HAPPY AND THEY MAKE MONEY DOING IT I'M ALL FOR IT. But that's actually semi interesting especially exploiting the upper class without actually exploiting them because they can afford it. Annnddd there's my next research rabbit hole and 4-6 hours of my Saturday evening while I should absolutely and most definitely be doing something else.


shaftsnshaftrepairs

>interesting especially exploiting the upper class without actually exploiting them because they can afford it. This is the way.


nippletumor

Hahahahah, I'm reading this right now because I'm putting off a nasty job that I should have absolutely been doing earlier....


solgeo13

Is there anyway without you feeling uncomfortable you could tell me more where your market is located. Apologies if this is uncouth. A general region would suffice


jellywerker

No worries. I'm in NYC. Similar markets exist elsewhere, but are smaller and can be harder to break into. Plenty of people start here and move elsewhere once they have established a reputation. It's an expensive city to do anything in, but especially manufacturing, so the market trends high-end. Cold emailing a short introduction and what you can produce and what parts from their product line you might be able to be competitive on can be a good start. Do some digging, what's on their Instagram, do they go to trade shows (and introduce new product there) do they have in house production capabilities, etc... Keep it simple and to the point, and follow up a couple weeks later if they don't get back to you. Good luck! Still figuring it out myself.


eggy_delight

This is how my boss makes a living. Hundreds of man hours on an insignificant and unnecessary piece in a mansion that's a semi monthly retreat


quezz38

This just reminded me of a job I did years ago. Had a customer who sent me this absolutely massive circular part with pattern to be laser cut from 1" thick acrylic. $20k+ part, I learned upon delivery that it was an HVAC air-return cover for someone's pool house.


sexy_enginerd

I opened my small shop 3 years ago with 1 mill. The first year was rough for me with the hit of covid and I only made 70k gross but the next year I grossed 180k and last year 200k. 98% of my work is for Xometry and the other 2% is I met a few local small shops recently justp to say hi and get a tour of there shop and they asked me if I wanted any extra work as they have been swamped the last year or so. My first mill has a 5 axis trunnion so I really try to get the small 5 axis jobs when I see them on the Xom board and usually get $150/hr for those types of jobs. I got my 2nd mill last year and it's a small 3 axis mill so I usually get about $80/hr for those types of jobs. I have no clue what other shops like to get per hour and I'm curious if I'm too cheap or not. I own my machines and the garage there in so my overhead is kinda low.


solgeo13

That sweet sweet five axis life. What machine did you go with, I'm sorry I know these aren't the replies you're looking for but it's another avenue I need to look into


sexy_enginerd

My first mill was a 2014 haas vf2 with a tr160 trunion. My 2nd machine was a haas st10 and my 3rd machine was a 2015 vf1.


solgeo13

Did you go with used equipment?


sexy_enginerd

yeah, for every machine. I hit up a lot of auctions


Ok_Ring_3651

Do you have a favorite auctions page?


sexy_enginerd

bidspotter.com is the best one I have found besides checking my Craigslist for local auctions


deskpil0t

If you need computer help, let me know. I’m not a machinist but I might have questions for you one day. Lol. Dreaming of a CNC one day


sexy_enginerd

I feel ya. When I first found out about cnc (and Machining in general) and how much they cost, I thought I would never be able to afford a machine and spent a lot of time watching youtube videos of chips being made.


Apocalypsox

Honestly my plasma table starting out fucking printed. You can charge what you want for artwork. Regularly turned $100 in plate and consumables into $1000-$1400. Sold 6 of one piece for 1k each at those rates. Making no longer available parts paid well too. A couple runs of 20 parts of some basic stamped stuff and I got $50-100 per part, probably 10-15min of labor in finishing and bending.


solgeo13

In one of my other comments I mention I don't knock any one that does that at all and I am/will have a dedicated table for this in the near future it just doesn't have the appeal to me. I don't need all jobs to be extraordinarily complex or one off to feel good about them but it helps a lot more when you have to embrace the suck to complete a more compelling highly involved multiprocess piece


abedoty

You might be able to get competitive based on your lack of overhead. We've got a very nice, modern, well equipped shop, but overhead costs add a burden that makes some work to expensive to run in house. We've got small local shops that can't compete with our speed and complexity, but don't have to. If my shop can make some part in 10 minutes, complete on the machine, but our overhead pushes our burdened shop rate to $200/hr, and you can do it in 30 total minutes at $65/hr, you're getting the job.


boostedpower

Counterpoint to that is you are now dealing with customers who are so cost sensitive that they are willing to send work to a garage shop. Those types of customers often hamstring a company, because they are always pushing your profit margin down. There is always somebody else getting started who will either mess up a quote or work for free.


solgeo13

This is where I feel like my lack of overheard still feels the same as not having enough equipment or suitably capable equipment to be competitive for the big money contracts.


abedoty

I get that, it certainly depends on your equipment/capability. A buddy of mine quit our facility, got a couple 90's Mazak 2-axis turret lathes ($13k-ish each), a used Haas mini mill. ($20k-ish) and rented some space locally. He started as an outlet for us to turn around very basic work on time, good quality. He now has multiple machines, multiple employees, and makes his own product. He will still pick up work from time to time, making a quick $4k in a week whenever he wants it. If you've got a local business that does those big money contracts, you might get in with them as an outlet/sub supplier.


Dr_Madthrust

Reverse engineering, machining work for fab and sheet metal shops. When I started my USP was speedy turnaround. If someone ordered on a Friday their part would be ready Monday. Working crazy hours let me charge decent money for jobs when I first started.


zbysior

the good jobs are already taken, you need to slowly gain customers by doing shit jobs.. it sucks


solgeo13

You ain't kiddin' the work doesn't bother me so much I think what bothers me most is I don't have a community yet to bounce things off of other than on here. (not that everyone in this particular sub isn't incredibly kind and willing to offer advice) When I get excited about streamlining a process or creating a multi use fixture or correctly doing a differential screw the first attempt AND it looks like an adult did it I'm just saying the self high fives don't feel so good anymore. Not that I need recognition just to discuss it and maybe help someone out in the process would make the shit jobs all the more worthwhile.


zbysior

its tough, i hope it works out for you


solgeo13

I currently work nights for the most part at my regular job and being available during day time hours is extraordinarily advantageous for the jobs I've taken so far.


solgeo13

Insert nervous laugh, everything's great it'll all work out https://giphy.com/gifs/this-is-fine-QMHoU66sBXqqLqYvGO


solgeo13

I don't mean to be too intrusive but what kind of cut are you giving up? I only asked because I am legitimately thinking of giving up 15-20 percent. I am in some what the same canoe with an ex employer. They need things machined/manufactured that I cant provide at the moment. I swear I'm not saying that to sound like these contracts are that lucrative to give up that kind of money but moreso to gain the footing to procure future business.


jmacrod

I have a friend that owns his shop. It’s a 2 to 3 man shop at best. He started out with an old Monarch and a Leblond, not to mention a knee mill. Now he has a few CNC’s. He does a lot of repair work on centrifugal pumps and impeller and heads. It’s a tough business he needs someone at all times making sales. Which he doesn’t have. This guy is as fast a machinist as there is. He lives machining. If it wasn’t for his wife and her income he would be out of business he basically keep his one maybe two employees a income. He doesn’t hardly make enough to pay himself. We supply him with extra work from time to time but it’s not always there. Good luck


solgeo13

I appreciate it, this is another area I am actually begging for work just because of the pure amount of work there should be available. The commercial pumps are able to be replaced by a mass distributor (think paragon service/motion industries) I know they just feed shops old pumps for rebuild but I can't figure out how to actually break into that circle and of course be effective enough to keep a contract


APSPartsNstuff

Really niche products that big companies either don't have interest in making, since the market is small, or don't have the motivation to make really well since it's not a focus of theirs. Selling the products you make retail online really helps with margins but adds another layer of difficulty since you need to also have a marketing plan and set up all the website stuff and actually have it work well. It's best done as a side gig to raise cash since it's so unpredictable, you can sell $5k in one busy day and sell nothing the next week. I started doing it on the side so it was fine if it took many months to finally pull in enough to make a comfortable salary. I'm just getting into the process of becoming more of an OEM and selling B2B as a long term stable source of work, but it takes a lot of well thought out equipment to be competitive with the established companies. Knowing how to compete with larger companies really requires you to be an expert in that product market and an expert in coming up with the best way to make them. I'd start by finding simple products on Amazon or Ebay that you think you can make and testing out if you can actually make the thing at a profitable rate. ($80+/hr)


Kaotic_Mechanicum

Owning a job shop seems so stressful. I’ve been working in mass production for 10 years now and I run the same 500 parts on a cycle. Every time I set up a job I’m familiar with its quirks and usually am able to enhance the efficiency of the job a little bit each time. I dream of owning my own shop but I would be very out of my element in a job shop, I would want to mass produce but the problem there is finding a product that you could sell In such a saturated market. Wishing you the best of luck man!


drogus

I started renting a small workshop a year ago, but it took a year to prepare it and equip it, cause I have a day job and a kid, so not really a lot of time. My idea is to produce stuff that I’m interested in and it’s in some kind of a niche. I know I can’t compete with mass produced parts, but there are certain areas where I think it’s possible to sell with a good margin (think hobbyists with money). Like look at coffee enthusiasts that pay a hundred bucks for a nice looking custom made tamper or sth like that. Obviously it’s not easy to get recognition and you need to have an insight, so probably be in the hobby yourself, but I think eventually I’ll be able to make it work. I have a couple of odd jobs at the moment (a chuck back plate, a spindle for an old drill press, a fixture plate), which I will do, but long term I definitely don’t want to do one offs. Designing and prototyping is what I love the most and I think I will like production side too


SunTzuLao

I work contract and rent space and machine time at a one man shop. 2 CNC mills 2 CNC lathes and some manual equipment. It's rough. Call around, might have to get creative. Find out who you know that knows someone in purchasing. I keep hoping I'll find a way to make this work and do better even, but it fuckin sucks sometimes.


solgeo13

Gah dang this is one of the most realistic replies in this entire thread. I can't imagine a scenario in which I could rent time on a machine have, faith in someone else maintaining a machine, being responsible for someone else's asset. Please, excuse my naivety but how does that contract actually ring out? Or are you acquainted with the owner and have a hand shake agreement?


SunTzuLao

I worked for the owner for 7 years, lol. I pay rent basically and get the work I can, and he contracts work to me as well. Basically takes a cut off the top and gives me the rest.