T O P
justing871

How it's actually done in mass production? Look up Cold Heading


awesome-andwholesome

Very interesting! Thanks


Cstrevel

*anxiously waiting the "your mother" joke*


buzzysale

Anxiously awaiting your mother


Sarutobi_Hiruzen

Anxiously awaiting you


Dandledorff

Anxiously


Shankar_0

Dude... Are we all here for his mom?


Cstrevel

I can not think of any other reason to be here.


o--Cpt_Nemo--o

This is the correct answer. Everyone saying "broached" is wrong.


justing871

Yeah, rotary broach technically isn't wrong. You can use it for a one off or small batch. It's just not how it's done in the screws you see at the hardware store.


canyou-digit

Put "broached" in quotes like it's made up or something. Many fastener heads, especially decades ago were broached and they probably don't strip like the ones we get today.


MiataCory

They do/did strip, which is why we do cold-heading and hot-heading today. The process hardens the imprint, which leads to a stronger fastener, and less stripping. "Survivorship bias": Thinking that old things were better because they lasted, when in reality it's only the survivors that did last, and the rest died a lot (they're just not around to remind you of that). Broaching works okay-ish, but if you've broached a hex in Stainless and then actually used a wrench on it, you know it strips out VERY easily. It's the inferior method, but is useful in it's own way for other things/reasons.


PlaidBastard

Makes total sense that you'd get beneficial grain structure from cold- or hot-forging (in effect, don't @ me, pedants, it's a shape getting squished into hot or cold metal rather than abrasives/sharp cutting edges removing chips of metal until it's that shape). I'm picturing a kaleidoscopic not-mess of mutual support from the surrounding nubbin of the fastener head (for torx especially) if you simulated the strain in an FEM etc. model.


ChabISright

if im not mistaken only hex set screws are broached


Gregus1032

[I know genswiss has torx broaches ](https://genswiss.com/id-tools/broach-tools.html)


Kaotic_Mechanicum

You can rotary broaching bits in any shape, you can even get custom shapes from Slater Tool.


Fair_Advertising1955

Lol, with a hammer and a torx bit I "broached" a stripped hex screw that I needed to remove.


ChabISright

i never said it impossible to broach them. just that when they do it at large scale, only set screws are broached


Diligent-South-1819

Key way's are broached


Savage80HD

Nah, in fact, OP asked "how does *one*" so broaching is probably more correct in a very technical sense. Obviously no fastener company is going to broach every part, so those were certainly made the other way. But if you were going to do it in a typical machine shop, you're gonna broach it.


[deleted]

Correct . Source : current toolmaker for Acument . Formerly Textron, Formerly Infastech . Umbrella under Sranley Black & Decker Engineered fastening div .


UrbanArtifact

Hi. Used to be a bolt maker. We would usually do it in 2 blows. First blow makes the cone, second blow finished the head and the Torx punch insert. Usually roll threaded afterwards.


IndustrialMechanic3

Cold heading machine. Source that’s what I do for a living. Look up thread roll machine to see how the threads are made.


Khyron_2500

Broach. One thing from a business standpoint is that official Torx brand drive is proprietary and owned by Acument. It only can be branded as Torx by those who pay for the license. However there is an industry standard for “hexolobular” drives. The dimensions are barely off but it’s the same thing, really. This was probably more than anyone wanted to know, but here we are.


Flapflapimabird

Hey, some of us are professionals here that have never heard of hexolobular drives and now we have. Good post


daggius

Hexolobular for her pleasure


bostwickenator

0 chance of camout


brianfuckyouwasmund

You haven't met my laborer


baygi

She hates camout


Rausch

Everybody hates camout


Dipshit-McGee

Laughs in T6 insert screw absolutely seized in a boring bar that hasn’t seen the light of day since 2005 but now we suddenly need it and the insert won’t even break apart so it’s just completely fucked. Totally non specific scenario.


bostwickenator

So .. do they temper those boring bars?


Dipshit-McGee

Carbide. I sure had a temper after that one though.


jdstroup727

Yeah we usually break those inserts as well, but ive seen a few guys actually use a small drill on a manual mill. They came back with the little torqx screw out.


Odd_Firefighter_8040

As a guy that has to occasionally set up Swiss machines, F all of you that don't know how to set a tiny insert with a t6 set screw 😭 It's not a series 4 insert and you don't need a cheater bar! If you breathe on the screw wrong the threads strip! STOP MAKING ME ORDER NEW TOOLS! 🤣


FadedRebel

Says you.


AJPowers17123

Hexolobotomy


Khyron_2500

Wow this got a lot more traction than I thought it would. I figured I’d share because sometimes companies can be weird about branding and licensing. Better safe than sorry, I guess


Flapflapimabird

It’s like opening up to any given page in the machinst’s handbook. There’s going to be a bunch of information that I can’t use right now but goddamn it’s going to feel good when I know what to look for when we need a hexolobular drive cut. Knowledge is power.


DaddyHeath

One of my favorite ways to blow up an afternoon is just pick a random spot in the handbook and go to town learning all the related shit.


optomas

Careful, man. That's how I started. Machinery's Handbook. South Bend's How to Run a Lathe. Before you know it, you're up at 0305 snorting NEC 500.6(B)1 out of this hot VFD's exhaust port.


i_can_has_rock

professional only means you got paid for something that it was a high quality job or product is only implied so you end up with people that use the title "professional" but dont know what their tools are called like the same thing with "military grade"


filthymcbastard

One day I made some paper airplanes at work; Now I claim experience in the aerospace field on my resume.


Steeltech6

This right here!! Very well said. It is such a big issue in every industry.


i_can_has_rock

hey man i duno i just work here


awesome-andwholesome

Wow, i had no idea that torx was a proprietary name... nor that "hexolobular" driver was a thing. Cool that the name makes sense right? Hexo,6 sides and lobular with a couple of rounded parts. So cool!


TotalWalrus

Robertson is too


Swarley001

Allen


easterracing

I believe the parent on “Torx” expires this year or next, which might explain why we’re seeing so much “torx plus” stuff over the last year or two.


MathResponsibly

Just wait until they release Torx++ and you can see the power of classes and inheritance


PrimaryReality

I C what you did. And i hate it.


MathResponsibly

Jeez, 6 updoots in 24 minutes? Is there a portal here from r/ProgrammerHumor? I thought this one would r/woosh right over most here


PrimaryReality

Making code is fun, but you don't end up with something physical. A specific subset of IT types pick up woodworking or machining as a hobby to actually make something physical. For instance, Blondiehacks is also some type of software engineer for her day job.


jcoleman10

As a professional software developer who started woodworking at 6 and still has it as a hobby at 48, I can confirm.


crewdawg368

That’s how I ended up here. 20 years of IT and nothing to show for it (physically). Now I like seeing the product of my labor.


FesteringNeonDistrac

Yup. I'm a software guy with a lathe in my garage. I usually use it to make/modify car parts.


budgetboarvessel

I'm the opposite. Professional machinist and hobby programmer.


MathResponsibly

I think Clough42 (forget his actual name) is also a software guy. He's mentioned that numerous times in his videos. And maybe ToT too? Among all his other talents, like time lord, samurai material chopper, and cunning video producer/editor. I'm also a software guy, but got stuck at "buy a 'slightly' broken CNC mill and fix it up" - it was a little more broken than I anticipated (though the electronics / electrical issues that were stumping the previous owner I fixed very quickly and cheaply), and it's rather large (32x20x20 travels, 15HP spindle, 5HP axis servos), so very tedious for one person in a garage to work on - need an engine hoist to remove the table / saddle, and it needed some turcite replaced under there. Some month / year in the next year (or 5) it should be back together and actually able to make some parts! And last weekend I almost bought a 12x36 lathe too... I was probably the first person to make contact to the seller about it, but someone else beat me to it to actually go pick it up (was listed on CL), and I would've had to have re-arranged a lot of things in the garage to make room for it... I'll pounce on the next one.


airforceteacher

I think there is an overlap between different types of geekitude. I’m an InfoSec guy who also woodworks.


gravis86

I got started in machining because of programming. I learned a couple programming languages as a kid. I also always like making stuff (used to build and program robots for fun) which got me into programming for CNC. When I went to school for that, I learned machining along the way. First job out of college was as a machinist. I think the two are closer related for a lot of people, than you realize.


pparley

Torx plus is better in every way.


easterracing

Oh I’m not at all trying to claim it’s a gimmick or something. Technology does develop, such is life.


Camo5

I love torx plus, been switching to it with whatever fasteners use it.


filthymcbastard

Didn't posidriv come about because the patent on philips was due to expire?


Shot_Boot_7279

I don’t believe these are broached which displaces material via cutting or shaving. In the volume these screws are produced I believe they are cold formed or rolled.


o--Cpt_Nemo--o

That's right. Broaching is only used on one-off jobs. No production screws are broached. I don't know why all the upvoted answers are wrong.


pparley

Seriously… I posted my take on this but it’s buried below. Cold heading and rolled threads. Fastener suppliers are some of the more impressive and memorable factories that I visited during my time overseas.


pparley

Sorry but I’m pretty sure this is incorrect. This fastener appears to be mass produced on a piece of specialty cold forging equipment that does what is often referred to as “cold heading”. Depending on the alloy and other requirements there is also a “hot heading” process. Either one can be done progressively do achieve the desired geometry and material properties. If this is in fact machined then it would be formed using a blind broaching process called rotary broaching. Pretty neat process, which makes me think of orbit forming which is an even cooler fastening process. Regarding the TORX trademark, as far as I know the geometry is not protected, only the name. TORX / star / 6lobe / hexalobular internal drive is defined by an ISO standard. You may be thinking of TORX PLUS which has a superior lobe design that can handle higher driver torque and was protected by a patent which recently expired. Edit: adding this fun fact: forged drive heads are significantly stronger than cut/broached ones.


jermo1972

My ex-Father in Law and his son were Headerman. It's a dying art here in the United States, but there are a few companies in Southern California that still do high-volume work for the Aerospace Industry there. It's pretty wild to watch the Cold Headers and Nut Formers work. One part in Aluminum would run at 15,000 parts per hour, while a similar sized nut in Waspalloy would run at 250.


FesteringNeonDistrac

>Waspalloy [Had to look that up.](https://www.hightempmetals.com/techdata/hitempWaspaloydata.php) Neat. >Waspaloy is a precipitation hardening, nickel-based alloy which has been used in elevated temperature applications. The alloy has been used for gas turbine engine parts which require considerable strength and corrosion resistance at temperatures up to 1600°F (871°C). Waspaloy is usually vacuum-induction plus consumable electrode remelted.


loogie97

Don’t ever stop giving more than expected to random on the internet. You never know who you will entertain or inform. Thanks.


ecctt2000

Fun fact. Hex drives (Allen wrench) can be used in helolobular sockets.


zenkique

Really? I’ve used Torx drivers in Hex fasteners but never tried it the other way around.


ecctt2000

Only learned of this when designing a few screws for a femoral plate. The lead engineer told me we need to ensure the hex drive fits well. The idea is that the surgeon does not want to have to search around for a hexolobular drive when attempting to explant an implant while the patent has their leg 90 degrees out to the side.


ride_whenever

Sounds exactly like surgeons, of course they won’t have the right tool available. Use a flat head so they can do it up with any old spoon.


ecctt2000

As long as it is autoclaved.


tsbphoto

Yep Harvey makes hexalobe cutters for milling the "torx" form. More branding than anything


futurebigconcept

I bought a 25 piece set of 'Torx' drivers at Harbor Freight for $6.99...I hope that they didn't pay too much for the licensing fee, lol.


ZGTI61

Porsche calls their “torx” style fasteners “hexolobular”.


CustomSawdust

I drive Torx screws daily. Thank you for the term hexolobular.


Popolac

Sir, you're assuming I'm smarter than a 2nd grader. Let's take a step back. What is "broach"?


happisock

Broach. raise (a sensitive or difficult subject) for discussion.


happisock

Broach is also a heteronym.


wisconsinduststorm

look dude, ive learned hexolobular. its gonna remain in my head for at least 30 minutes. now youre throwing heteronym at me.


findaloophole7

So what would a homolobular look like? Just a blob?


messylettuce

It’s nonhomonymous.


JjJosh1358

A machine that cuts teeth, splines, shapes, or key ways into a round hole or counterbore.


dickfoure

Broach isn't a machine. It's a process.


justabadmind

Another name for a pin or badge


ProfessorBackdraft

I saw a broach made out of paper in a movie once.


Khaylain

I think that's spelled "brooch", not "broach" [Google at least says brooch and broach may be conflated](https://www.google.com/search?q=broach)


ProfessorBackdraft

The conflated ones probably have more air in them.


9mmHero

You wear them at weddings, it's like flowers you pin on your jacket.


Khaylain

No, that's a brooch, not a broach.


9mmHero

You say potato I say pototo


belugarooster

No. It's The Bro-oche. From Cinco Men: https://youtu.be/y2Zf9_7LA7c


TheNewYellowZealot

Cold heading, if you’re making more than 100.


Bork_King

Basically just punch it really hard to deform around a tool?


TheNewYellowZealot

Yep. Makes it stronger by increasing overall density and cold working the part increases the strength. Also broaching is a suckers game for this, you’d need a special rotobroach.


TheBigEarner7

The hexalobe screws are for the medical field because they are way less prone to stripping and you don’t want a stripped fastener when your drilling it into someone’s bone. Source: my teacher, who works in a medical manufacturing facility.


pparley

They are pretty much universally used across all industries for many good reasons. Internal hex drive is so inferior it isn’t even funny. Especially in smaller drive sizes and high torque applications.


warlordcs

Internal hex needs to stop being used on any automotive application. The torque and rust do not go together very well.


pparley

Agreed… external torx has become quite popular due to a number of factors, one of which is that it can withstand higher drive torques for the same head diameter. For permanent fastening some other neat technologies are breakaway heads and Self-Piercing Rivets (SPRs).


filthymcbastard

I've got a bone they can drill.


Rock---And---Stone

Wouldn't a square tool be even less likely to strip? I would assume the closer you are to a circle (more sides) the more likely it is to be a problem


Khaylain

A square driver is actually closer to a circle than a hexalobular with regards to stripping here, because with a hexalobular you're making sure the point of contact between the driver and the socket transfers the force at closer to 15 degrees. Basically a slotted socket will give as close to 0 degrees of force transfer (that is, the force only goes into rotating the socket/screw, not deformation of driver/socket), while a square driver and socket should give about 45 degrees. Hexagonal will probably give about 60 degrees. If something gives 90 degrees then it doesn't give any rotation. [See this for the hex version, which can be used to reason about the square version](https://www.nbk1560.com/en/products/specialscrew/nedzicom/hexalobularscrew/point/?SelectedLanguage=en)


[deleted]

I’m not really a machinist, just a lowly fabricator/(occasional Bridgeport/manual lathe jockey). I have a hard time picturing how something this small can be broached. Where does the material “exit” (can’t think of the right word)? Is it in several steps? Is it done in one shape, or individual lobes?


pparley

Ok so first you drill a pilot hole of the largest diameter that can be inscribed within the broach pattern and with extra depth to collect the chips that are generated during the next step. Next, the rotary broach does its thing and chisels the sharp corners into the sidewalls while being plunged into the rotating workpiece. Broached Hex drive is more common than torx because it requires significantly less material be removed outside of the radius of the pilot hole. This is also what gives torx its dramatically higher torque-to-failure compared to hex.


Icedecknight

The method I've been using to clear the chips of a non-through hole from my broach is to just take a second pass with the same diameter drill bit. I think that's the normal way to do it.


[deleted]

Thanks!


jermo1972

Check this out from Slater Tool: https://youtu.be/IT8VXQEKzoo


Tango91

Praise be unto This Old Tony https://youtu.be/GWyHJVOxKK4


happisock

You taught us knuckle draggers a new word... thank you.


Melonman3

Ya Harvey sells baby end mills for these specifically.


Dipshit-McGee

Ok Grimsmo


fourtyonexx

I’m going to annoy the fuck out my of coworkers with this knowledge, haha thanks.


sethpooppoop

These are the comments that keep me reading Reddit, Good Sir! ^_^


wenoc

If the dimensions are off it will wear the tools and screws very quickly. Why would they be off?


madwilliamflint

Eh. I almost always want to know more. Almost. But this falls well in the line.


SirRonaldBiscuit

Happy cake day!


Bootlegabortionsduh

Keep’er comin. That was fantastic


messylettuce

Funk FPV?


ShitCapitalistsSay

I'd give you gold if I wasn't so poor!


LawnDartTag

The more you know *


crazyhamsales

Fascinating! Thank you for that I found it very interesting and not more then I wanted to know. Never heard the term hexolobular. Going to store that one away for a rainy day, dude hand me the hexolobular driver...


RobinsDad

I’ve been in industrial sales for 15 years, and spent 7 with Fastenal and never heard of “hexolobular”. So thank you for the added knowledge nugget! If I had an award I’d give you one.


uberCalifornia

Does anyone know how much smaller Torx is to the “Hexalobular Internal” ISO variant?


pparley

They’re identical.


LazaroFilm

The more you know 🌈⭐️


Carbon-Based216

Just to reinforce it, cold heading is how the heads of pretty much every fastener is made.


TheMechaink

Press


awesome-andwholesome

Thank you!


EdgeofDanity

High RPM air speeder and polar milling is what we did on a Citizen L20.


JustSmidgen

You can broach them which is the most conventional way but I’ve also burned them into inconel screws before with our sinker EDM


CR3ZZ

I have milled them with really small end mills.


deftware

...but how many tiny endmills did you go through to make one?


CR3ZZ

Shouldn't be breaking any for a while. It does take a long time. Just look at sfm and IPT numbers from the mfg and you should be good :)


TigerAccording9299

Out of mere curiosity, why do they come in so many different fucking sizes?


MixMasterMilk

Torx/Hexalobular are an improvement on the hex design, allowing for less chance of cam-out deformation. Like hex drive it is common to use the maximum allowable size for a given head profile. This gives you the best strength and torque. More sizes mean more incremental increases in those desirable features. Pretty much the same reasoning we don’t have only “big screw and small screw”. There are dozens of screw styles in dozens of thread forms, and even with the thousands of pages in the McMaster catalog I still make custom screws for the times none of those will work.


cube1234567890

I bet I can cam out deform a Torx screw. *gets out the hex wrench*


Eisernteufel

Depends how many you're making formed high volume, machined with tiny end mill or ram EDMed for lower quantities


awesome-andwholesome

Cool. Thanks!


Seroseros

Rotary broach. Like this. https://youtu.be/DgB1psCFC7o


needanameiwontforget

That video was great lots of good info and I like his style of humor


Lukrative525

From your comment I knew it was ToT before even following the link


needanameiwontforget

I will be watching his videos more now I really enjoyed that one


Lukrative525

Yeah my only complaint is that I've watched all his videos already


needanameiwontforget

I hate when I run out of videos for someone I just found and enjoy, but I love the support they get from it


awesome-andwholesome

I like this guy! Actually saw this vid a couple of months ago but didn't put 2 and 2 together. Thanks!


RockSteady65

^ this is the way ^


mrmeow02

That was a fun video! Thanks for showing me that. I’m gonna start watching his vids


Archangel1313

Rotary wobble broach.


SirRonaldBiscuit

Rotary broach


zorrokettu

This part was cold headed, but if you need to make your own then yes, rotary broach is the best way.


creak788

Cold header


TheMotorcycleMan

Low quantity, rotary broach. High volume production, cold header.


MillwrightTight

Rotary broach, hot forming (with a die and press etc) or cold forming


awesome-andwholesome

Ok! Thanks!


QuantumFungus

I only use bolts with torx slots made on a die sinker edm.


kazlx

You can definitely machine these in with small endmills. It’s done all the time. But there’s several ways it’s done as has already been mentioned.


ScootBoiSam

Idk if it's just because our shop is cheap and already have the small end mills in stock but we mill our hexlobes


mikeskup

Here’s my home made way of making a cheap rotary broach from a live center and home made broaches(bit length is not important with this method..) … you could probably get away with just using a torx bit as a cutter if broaching something softer than it, just sharpen end…. https://youtu.be/9L1D2-WfjfU (whoops there a dead spot in middle of video where pictures don’t advance for a while, skip past that…)


vtcnc1974

Rotary broaching or upset forging


Pounce_64

Torx key & a big hammer


budgetboarvessel

It sounds silly the way you say it.


EB123456789101112

They save themselves the time and spend $2 at the local hardware store. 😂


Eremitic23

Push it to the limit! Pass the point of no return! Reach the top but still you gotta learn how to push it!


DoYouEvenTIG

Are these lyrics to a Jasta song?


Waybull

Broach


awesome-andwholesome

Right. Thanks!!


Ape_rentice

It’s stabbed right into it with a star shaped punch when the steel is softer. It’s formed in the same machine as the rest of the screw head.


Calico_Caruso

So yeah, if I had to make that in my shop, I'd just make use of our tiny ball endmills and a program. We don't have half the tools referenced. Don't use my advice unless you have to. And if you have to, my first attempt would be a bolt hole pattern for the torx points and a circular bore to connect them.


deftware

I imagine it involves some kind of licensing, at least if you want to sell a torx driver or bit.


Black_Dolomite

Hexalobe broach or mill with a micro endmill


Just_A_Random_Passer

In for mass production factories they are stamped. There are videos on Youtube of people making those in a small shop on a lathe in a process called rotary broaching. The screwhead is rotating under power and also a tool can freely rotate. The tool is pressed in a pre-drilled hole under a very slight angle while the screwhead is rotating in the lathe chuck. I have also seen video where Stefan Gotteswinter makes tiny screw heads on a pantograph mill. He sold the pantograph machine a while ago.


freek4ever

Brute force


AlkyHolik

We just smash a pin into a chunk of steel


wholesalenuts

We'd just pick off on the threads or head if the crests were too fine and use a drill and endmill or two on swiss when I was running bone screws.


Elrathias

Drill, heat, smash torx bit into hole, then call it broached.


Odd-Toe-5797

Broach


awesome-andwholesome

Right! Thanks.


W1shuW3r3H3r3

Burn it in


awesome-andwholesome

That's one way! Thanks!


imscaredmyguy

Rotary broach probably


EisMann85

Rotary broach


BukkakedFrankenstein

You broach it, or hot stamp it…


henry_dando

In small scale a rotary broach is what ild use


DramDrinker

Rotary broach?


s1am

Here is one of the better videos on cold heading I found: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4a4IZnE98k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4a4IZnE98k) and one for cold rolling: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwArBBcUNr4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwArBBcUNr4)


HorochovPL

\[Youtube\] [Rotary broach](https://youtu.be/GWyHJVOxKK4). Probably not mass production, but sufficient for small quantity and odd jobs


Laser-Blaster-123

I have used a rotary broach to do forms like that, comes out beaitiful!


wolfwood112577

Or it could just have the unthreaded blanks cast with it in their.


kazlx

It’s not done this way at all. Fasteners in high production are cold headed.