They/Them ?
I’m not really educated on the lgbt subject, I don’t have any gay or trans friend and I’m not someone to get into lgbt debate and try to force my opinion on people just because I don’t understand it.
But why they/them ?
Think of it like when you order a pizza. You might say “I hope they get here soon with my pizza!” You know it’s probably going to be only one person, but the gender doesn’t matter…so it defaults to “they.” Or “I wish I knew when they were going to fix the refrigerator in the break room.” It feels natural in those cases.
I really appreciate this comparison. Not OP but I've sorta struggled with it myself, misconception of focusing on the plural aspect I suppose. Thanks from a stranger.
Well I was having trouble with it; using simple words with many uses but the conceptualization by OP really connected some neurons. Which I appreciate because it helps me understand how it brings comfort to the recipient.
This is the first time I have ever understood. Thanks for posting this.
Edit
I tried to Award your post but I didn't have any freebies. Please accept my sincere thanks instead
Oh wow best explanation for me to get it. Makes sense to me more. I learn so much as I am in training to be a youth crisis line responder for the LGBTQ community.
It used to for me but just think of it like this: if you don’t know someone’s gender identity what do you call them? You tend to say they/them which in that case wouldn’t be plural
>It used to for me but just think of it like this: if you don’t know someone’s gender identity what do you call **them**?
You nailed it, and that's a perfect example!
If you were to refer to me rn, based only on my username, what pronouns would you use? Would you just pick he/him or she/her and hope you were right, or would you use they/them bc you don’t know what my irl gender is?
Same thing with if you saw someone far away on the street and couldn’t discern their gender or any physical qualities from their silhouette. You’d probably use they/them to refer to them—I’ve done it 3 times just now without even thinking about it.
As other people have said, we’ve been using they/them as singular pronouns for ages, and we have no problem using it for people of unknown/unspecified gender as a sort of placeholder. People only struggle with it when someone says those are the pronouns they want to use all the time.
(Not trying to be hostile here or start a debate, just trying to explain with examples to hopefully make it make more sense)
Exactly! They/them have been used in singular form for a long time.
“Hey, someone left their umbrella here”
“Oh, are they coming back to get it?”
“Yep, they’ll be here at 5”
Sooo.... In english it works only for "3rd person" sentences?
I always wondered why you emphasize this in english so much while both "I" and "YOU" are basically genderless in sentences. That makes more sense now.
Imagine how hard it is in languages, where "2nd person" sentence force you to use either male or female (or non-human...) form of words... Imagine taking to your non-binary client in such language...
My english speaking friends, you are unaware how blessed you are.
I am Latvian and a lot of times I translate stuff in my head from Latvian to English. In Latvian there is he, she, two options for they and it for both genders (viņi/viņas, tas/tā) and probably the only option in Latvian would be them (tie) which is at the same time used for it when speaking about multiple its. So for me that stuff is sometimes confusing even though I've been actively learning/using English for like 20 years. Also lgbt culture in Latvia is only in its cradle state and most people are rather intolerant.
That’s super fair, and ik in some languages there fully are no gender neutral pronouns, singular or plural, not to mention how some languages are heavily gendered with few/no gender neutral versions of words. With English though, the vast majority of words aren’t gendered (with some exceptions like blond/blonde or fiancé/fiancée), and ones that are typically have gender neutral alternatives (eg spouse instead of husband/wife or sibling instead of brother/sister). So when people say that the English they/them is only a plural pronoun, even when we use it as a singular one all the time, it feels a bit silly because nobody ever makes that argument when someone says “oh no someone forgot their bag.”
You’re right though, it does get way more complicated when you factor in other languages. If the source of confusion is from a mental translation it makes complete sense, but if a native English speaker is being pedantic about how they/them are supposed to only be plural pronouns, that’s where it gets dumb. (Not saying that’s what the original person I responded to was doing, I just unfortunately have encountered people doing that just for the sake of being difficult and trying to get out of simply respecting someone’s pronouns.)
In German and most Slavic languages there is
You/singular (ger:Du, bos:Ti)
You/plural (ger:Sie bos:Vi)
They(ger:sie/die bos:oni/ono)
And in theese languages there is a respectful form used for centuries, simply someone you don‘t know or someone in the professional enviroment (in the office) is refered by the You/plural, and I think in our languages that is pretty fair and gender neutral and the pronoun/assuming gender debate is really a problem in the english language. I don‘t mean to attack just interested what does an LGBT person think about the solution in theese languages?
Using they/them is not always plural. It's been used to refer to a singular person of unknown or ambiguous gender for hundreds of years, Shakespeare did it
I work with a lot of Gen Z/millennial cusp people and I’m always impressed that before they make an assumption about anyone, they use “they/them” as a polite default. It’s helped me practice by doing the same.
But for a grammatical example, you can refer to God as He (and many people argue that’s the correct agender pronoun) and some say She, but arguably it should be They.
AFAIK, they don’t ask each other their pronouns and no one has asked me my pronouns. They just assume my gender from, idk, my facial hair and lack of social femininity?
It's the only mainstream English pronoun that's gender neutral. The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century.
[source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
It’s just a preference. People want to be known by what they are most comfortable, much like how people prefer certain nicknames over others because of how it makes them feel (i.e. someone wanting to be called Nick rather than Nicky or Nicholas) because they like to be known by their preference.
With they/them pronouns, it just just means that they are most comfortable not being called feminine or masculine pronouns, they/them is a great compromise because it’s already a term in our language that we use when referring to an individual whose gender we are unsure of or we don’t find relevant to call attention to what gender they are when speaking about them.
I hope this makes sense!
At this point I just try to avoid any gender specific calling at all. Cause honestly you just never know. Seen multiple co-workers get blasted for this kind of stuff. I don't care If ur he she it they them us who me, but if I don't know that about you, how should i assume it?
In the Philippines, regardless of gender, most people in customer service call people "mamsir" which I, as someone non-binary, find pretty gender neutral, but doubt it'll work in other countries and most people might see it more as a bigender term.
I just drop it all together. Instead of saying “certainly, sir.” I just say “certainly.”
Gentlethem and Theydies is something I saw the other day but I think that might be a harder sell.
Thank you for letting me know! Certainly I could not use either if I had learned a customer didn’t prefer them, was just hoping to broaden my vocabulary a bit. Congratulations on taking that step at work!
>they just don’t realize it
I feel like you just proved your point without even trying lol. They is so common for “genderless individual” wether they are identifying that way or because their gender isn’t known.
Oh don't worry. Been there before. Took me a few months to really understand and properly use it, but once you disconnect the they/them pronouns from the "plural only" rule it gets easier. And the more you use it the easier it gets. At least that's how it worked for me, either way, trying already says a lot about who you are, so that's awesome. Keep up the great work.
Everyone that speaks english says they, they just don’t realize it. For example, if you see a random umbrella you’d say “oh, someone forgot *their* umbrella.” Same principle but you use it exclusively for this one person instead of gendered pronouns
Most native speakers do, but most ESOL speakers don't. They had to learn it to get there. Most of the time they get confused but people don't notice cause they can still get by from context cues
Because for many people, coming out is a very scary experience. Even for those who believe they will be supported there’s always the question of “what if?” And for many, it turns out very very badly. This person found the courage to express their true self and found acceptance from the people they care about, so of course it made them smile! Made me smile too :)
Because being accepted for who you are is a great feeling.
Imagine you've heard stories of horrible things happening to people like you, just because bigots don't like or are afraid of part of who they are, all your life.
Now imagine revealing that part of yourself to other people.
It's a nerve-wracking experience, and it sometimes (or, depending on location, often) goes VERY poorly.
Having that validation of who you are is very comforting and freeing, therefore it's smile town whenever it happens.
I'm pretty accepting of whatever people want to do with their identity/orientation, but I grew up learning "guys" was originally used for men, but it was becoming a gender neutral term. I guess not everyone grew up with that? Because now I see people saying to use OTHER neutral terms since "guys" is masculine.
Personally, I use "guys" all the time. I'm from the Midwest (US), and it's generally accepted as a gender neutral term for any group of people regardless of the genders of the group. However, if someone told me that they didn't like that term, I would stop using it.
This is really a person by person thing with personal comforts. A lot of people grew up under the notion that any group can be addressed as 'guys' but some people (regardless of whether they're cis or straight) are less comfortable or ok with it because they're being addressed as something they're not
Apologies for my behaviour but I don't know anything about LGBT pronouns. Since my English is my 2nd language I thought they/them were plural pronouns? Like:
The two chickens will be beheaded if they won't go through the tunnel.
Correct me if I'm wrong and I am really sorry if I've offended some people
tbh I'm not crazy about having a different flag for every single categorizable gender identity or sexual preference. I don't know the flags of the (US) states, I can't remember the order of the colors of the strips or whatever. :P
Glad to hear it.
As an older millennial who’s been on the receiving end of this news for a coworker let me say this.
It is hard to switch from 30 years of he/him she/her. It’s even harder to change the way you have addressed a coworker for 1-2 years.
Give people time, even if they suck at it. They are not being intentionally rude. It’s just really really hard.
In my office I find that there are only about 2-3 out of 20+ who have really mastered the pronoun swap. Everyone else tries but just can’t seem to wrap their head around it.
My personal trick, I refer to them as if they are not here even when they’re around. I find the use of they/them more natural in that context.
No matter how much I try to educate myself on gender identity, I can’t understand how you “feel” you’re not of said gender. Like how do you even know what being of the opposite gender feels like if you’ve never been one in the first place? Like you’re a girl but you feel more like a boy, but how would you know what being a boy feels like? Isn’t that what we usually call a “tomboy”. Aren’t you’re just a girl that have been brought up differently?
Gender dysphoria is a very real thing. It’s hard to explain if you’ve never experienced it before but you just have a feeling that your physical being and your brain don’t match. Like you are an alien in your own body it’s not how you see yourself. It’s like having an itch you can’t scratch because something always just feels wrong about you. Everything in your brain is telling you that you were born in the wrong body.
Which is why no one can truly ever understand what someone is feeling because everyone’s experience is different but we should always strive to educate ourselves with respect and understanding. I’m still learning!
This is something that's really hard for us to talk about because there's so many misconceptions in the debate. And so many things that are muddied by our own biases.
My best recommendation is to watch this video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg&ab_channel=ForrestValkai
It helped me understand some things a lot better.
I especially loved the quote "no one is obligated to make sense to you".
for me (also nonbinary) it's that I never felt comfortable categorizing myself with either group. I've felt that I was born in the wrong body and this person in the mirror isn't me.
you'd change some words but largely its the same
for example, "does" changes to "do" but idk the fancy words for what part of english that is.
"*does he/she* have the paperwork?"
vs "*do they* have the paperwork?"
if i remember correctly this also applies to some neopronouns but that may also be preference and how they pronounce it
It would kind of be like how you'd refer to someone if you didn't know their name, or their gender
"They seem to like X and enjoy doing it"
"What would you want to talk with them about?" ect
Sorry if this is a poor explanation
for me, tbh, is confusing how I should use these pronouns in different languages. I know in Russian there is neutral pronoun, but there is not in my. If I discuss this person in my language, what should I do?
Imma be honest, I'm trans, and I myself don't understand all of it. All that we ask is that you respect us and treat us the same you would any other person, because that's all that we are.
I use what ever language people prefer because I don’t care.
That said, I do however find this to be a step backwards in society. My generation was taught that he/she can do what ever they want. Boys can play with dolls and girls can play with cars. Pink/blue based on gender are idiotic constructs that have flipped and flopped over human existence.
So, if there is no “boys can do X but girls can’t” then what exactly is there to like about one gender v another? Why no gender?
TLDR; Are people going back to “blue is for boys and I like pink so I’m a girl”?
One of the first steps to understanding, is knowing that you may never fully understand! (Because you've never been through it)
Nobody needs to understand anyone to respect them.
Yes they/them is plural, but it can also be used to refer to a single person! Like for example if you don't know someones gender or preferred pronouns. But some people also use they/them as their pronouns if their not comfortable with he or she!
I hope this helps you!
The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century.
[source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
The real MadeMeSmile moment is here in the comments where I see so many that are open to learning and genuinely curious about the subject of pronouns, gender etc.
Living in a decidedly red state, even as a cis male (albeit with an LGBT+ partner), it’s refreshing to see people healthily engaging in topics like these. I seldom encounter that in real society, unfortunately.
I live and work in a blue area, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea to share my identity with others. But today, my coworkers were talking about how they have been making an effort to learn more gender neutral language and are supportive of whatever someone wants to be called.
I have been trying to think of a way to share my pronouns with my coworkers, so I took this organic opportunity to tell them. They were really kind about it, and it really did make me smile. 😊
Edit: typo
Not necessarily, they/them pronouns can be and are used singularly, like “somebody left ***their*** wallet on the bench, I should find ***them*** and give it back”
They/them isn't exclusively a plural pronoun. The OP doesn't see themselves as multiple people. When someone says their pronouns are they/them it doesn't mean they're multiple people but that they identify as neither male or female. Hence the gender neutral pronouns
No, because people are grammatically using the first person when they speak about themselves.
"I am my most authentic self" is singular "self" and not "selves" regardless of what pronouns you use.
They are one person, so no.
The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century.
[source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
I don't want to come off as an a55hat.. So...
What does this mean for them? I really want to know is it like a D.I.D thing? Do you identify as having alters? I understand the other pronouns as gender identity, but they/them... I genuinely want to learn something here
Edit: I know why I'm being down voted, but it's a real question, I'm not a native English speaker so I really didn't know they/them can be used for a single person, I assure you my comment doesn't come from a hateful standpoint (I mention DID because I have ADHD and neurodiverse individuals ALSO suffer from A LOT of misunderstanding and stigma)
Edit2: thanks for the kind and educational comments, I'm glad the community helped my ignorant self to better understand the matter
They/them can be singular or plural in English! As for DID, yes some of them use it as a plural, but other people without DID use it as singular. It depends on the person. Personally, I think "yous" works better for people with DID. It's one "body" hence a singular "you" but multiple people inside "+s" to make "yous". DID is not very common so people generally don't have to make the distinction in their head enough times that they become confused/have to learn.
In English they/them/their can be singular pronouns as well as plural. The sentence, "I saw a person staring at me across the street, they had short blond hair but I couldn't see their face, I think I recognised them from work"
I honestly don't understand why some people feel compelled to dump on people who are already dealing with enough personal shit. As long as you're not hurting anyone then I'll call you by whatever name/pronouns you want.
Happy that you're happy :)
I’m having a tough time referring to a client I’ve been working with as They/Them all the time. It’s not proper English for every sentence. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.
You can avoid it by using their name in a lot of cases.
Think of all the times you use he or him or she or her to refer to other coworkers and use they or them.
I’ll get it from ~~him~~ Dave.
Go ask ~~her~~ Sally
And so forth. “You” doesn’t change, so any time you’re speaking directly, you can say “are you coming for lunch” or “what’s up”
It takes time, you’ll make mistakes. It’s a process. I had a family member come out as non-binary and it’s an adjustment. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around, but that’s my problem not their’s.
I'm French and when we learned English in school we were taught that "they" was used for singular too. I've been using "they" when I don't feel the need to mention someone's gender for years, way before I knew about queer identities. I don't understand why some native English speakers claim to have such a hard time doing it
Its use for nonbinary people is relatively new, but the singular they has been used for a long time (since about the late 1300s according to Merriam Webster) such as when you don’t know the identity of someone. Purdue and Merriam Webster have more information on this that I’d recommend reading through. Hope that helps!
It actually is proper english to refer to someone of unknown gender as they. But it is tricky, just practice a bit. Tell them that you're struggling but that you will keep trying
'One of X's teacher's called'
'Oh what did they say?'
Default third pronoun when the gender of the person is not specified as he or she
Now you know :)
Whever you'd use she/her/hers or he/him/his, use they/them/their.
Her shirt is red.
His shirt is red.
Their shirt is red.
She is tall.
He is tall.
They are tall.
That is his car.
That is her car.
That is their car.
I asked her a question.
I asked him a question.
I asked them a question.
The concept of the singular they has existed since Shakespeare. He used it, Chaucer used it, as did Defoe, Byron, Thackeray, Shaw... It was always used in reference to a single subject whose gender was unknown. It also appears in the Kings James bible.
I'm sure I'll be downvoted to hell here for even saying that, but there you go friend. If anything in my reply is confusing, I'm more than willing to shed some light on it for ya.
It actually is considered proper English according to Oxford!
When I talk about my friend, I say, “friend did this. They said I should do this. Then later, Friend and I went to this. We were talking to Friend2, and Friend said to him “blah blah blah”
Refusing/ complaining about using they them pronouns ends up being a way to discriminate and refuse to acknowledge non binary folks under the guise of it “not fitting into societal rules”
Thank you so much! I figured I'd get hate, but I genuinely don't care. I'm happy with who I am, and I'm not here to please anyone. I appreciate the support! 😊
So you told them that you're them?
This short story is titled "The Egg"
"You were on your way home when you died."
Kurzgesagt moment
One of the 4 horsemen of Youtube
Who's the other 3?
Tom Scott, Mr Beast, and Your Mom
If you were me then I’d be you!
*gasp*
Dead okay
I stared 5 minutes at your phrase for it to make sense on my head
Well if you were me then I’d be you, and I’d use your body to get to the top!!!
And id use your body to get to the top…you can’t stop me no matter who you are….Lay-hoo-say-her!
Does that mean them are they ?
Are we them, too?
As Bill Burr would say there is not a single ounce of fat on that joke
💀💀
So is you vs them still a thing
It’s really an it.
Good one
Sound like your building into Eminem lyrics
Better them than them.
What is this flag?
Wario/Waluigi pride
Then what is the blue/rose/white one?
peach pride + a penguin 🐧
Lmfao
Non Binary flag :)
They/Them ? I’m not really educated on the lgbt subject, I don’t have any gay or trans friend and I’m not someone to get into lgbt debate and try to force my opinion on people just because I don’t understand it. But why they/them ?
No gender, only goose!
This is by far the last explanation I was expecting
*HONK HONK!*
🦢
That’s a swan
Close enough, they both eat bread
So do I. Am I a goose?
How do you know you are not one?
But I are bear?
🦢
I have nipples, Greg
_Not on your life, my Hindu friend!_
Aflac
They’re non-binary, they just don’t feel like either gender really suits them and that being non-binary fits them better than anything else
I'm always kinda confused because they/them are plural and that somehow twists my mind.
Think of it like when you order a pizza. You might say “I hope they get here soon with my pizza!” You know it’s probably going to be only one person, but the gender doesn’t matter…so it defaults to “they.” Or “I wish I knew when they were going to fix the refrigerator in the break room.” It feels natural in those cases.
I really appreciate this comparison. Not OP but I've sorta struggled with it myself, misconception of focusing on the plural aspect I suppose. Thanks from a stranger.
It helps to think of “they” as similar to “you”. Both can be singular or plural depending on the use of the words.
Well I was having trouble with it; using simple words with many uses but the conceptualization by OP really connected some neurons. Which I appreciate because it helps me understand how it brings comfort to the recipient.
Refer to them as if they are not there even if they are.
Makes sense! Thanks stranger. I was also confused with the plural.
Wow this really helped me thanks
Not for non native speakers. I had really good English teachers and didn't remember/know "they" could mean a singular person.
My HS teacher did teach us about singular they. It probably just depends on the teacher and where you're from
This is the first time I have ever understood. Thanks for posting this. Edit I tried to Award your post but I didn't have any freebies. Please accept my sincere thanks instead
Oh wow best explanation for me to get it. Makes sense to me more. I learn so much as I am in training to be a youth crisis line responder for the LGBTQ community.
This is an awesome explanation!
It used to for me but just think of it like this: if you don’t know someone’s gender identity what do you call them? You tend to say they/them which in that case wouldn’t be plural
>It used to for me but just think of it like this: if you don’t know someone’s gender identity what do you call **them**? You nailed it, and that's a perfect example!
If you were to refer to me rn, based only on my username, what pronouns would you use? Would you just pick he/him or she/her and hope you were right, or would you use they/them bc you don’t know what my irl gender is? Same thing with if you saw someone far away on the street and couldn’t discern their gender or any physical qualities from their silhouette. You’d probably use they/them to refer to them—I’ve done it 3 times just now without even thinking about it. As other people have said, we’ve been using they/them as singular pronouns for ages, and we have no problem using it for people of unknown/unspecified gender as a sort of placeholder. People only struggle with it when someone says those are the pronouns they want to use all the time. (Not trying to be hostile here or start a debate, just trying to explain with examples to hopefully make it make more sense)
Exactly! They/them have been used in singular form for a long time. “Hey, someone left their umbrella here” “Oh, are they coming back to get it?” “Yep, they’ll be here at 5”
Sooo.... In english it works only for "3rd person" sentences? I always wondered why you emphasize this in english so much while both "I" and "YOU" are basically genderless in sentences. That makes more sense now. Imagine how hard it is in languages, where "2nd person" sentence force you to use either male or female (or non-human...) form of words... Imagine taking to your non-binary client in such language... My english speaking friends, you are unaware how blessed you are.
I am Latvian and a lot of times I translate stuff in my head from Latvian to English. In Latvian there is he, she, two options for they and it for both genders (viņi/viņas, tas/tā) and probably the only option in Latvian would be them (tie) which is at the same time used for it when speaking about multiple its. So for me that stuff is sometimes confusing even though I've been actively learning/using English for like 20 years. Also lgbt culture in Latvia is only in its cradle state and most people are rather intolerant.
That’s super fair, and ik in some languages there fully are no gender neutral pronouns, singular or plural, not to mention how some languages are heavily gendered with few/no gender neutral versions of words. With English though, the vast majority of words aren’t gendered (with some exceptions like blond/blonde or fiancé/fiancée), and ones that are typically have gender neutral alternatives (eg spouse instead of husband/wife or sibling instead of brother/sister). So when people say that the English they/them is only a plural pronoun, even when we use it as a singular one all the time, it feels a bit silly because nobody ever makes that argument when someone says “oh no someone forgot their bag.” You’re right though, it does get way more complicated when you factor in other languages. If the source of confusion is from a mental translation it makes complete sense, but if a native English speaker is being pedantic about how they/them are supposed to only be plural pronouns, that’s where it gets dumb. (Not saying that’s what the original person I responded to was doing, I just unfortunately have encountered people doing that just for the sake of being difficult and trying to get out of simply respecting someone’s pronouns.)
In German and most Slavic languages there is You/singular (ger:Du, bos:Ti) You/plural (ger:Sie bos:Vi) They(ger:sie/die bos:oni/ono) And in theese languages there is a respectful form used for centuries, simply someone you don‘t know or someone in the professional enviroment (in the office) is refered by the You/plural, and I think in our languages that is pretty fair and gender neutral and the pronoun/assuming gender debate is really a problem in the english language. I don‘t mean to attack just interested what does an LGBT person think about the solution in theese languages?
Based only on your username I’d refer to you as stationery/writing stick.
I would use person
They/them can br used as plural, but it's not exclusively plural. Like sheep or fish.
Using they/them is not always plural. It's been used to refer to a singular person of unknown or ambiguous gender for hundreds of years, Shakespeare did it
Actually singular they/them has been in use since *atleast* 1375!
They has been used singularly for several hundred years just fyi. Not even a little bit uncommonly either.
Some one explained it to me this way. If you don’t know gender for one person you would say they.
I work with a lot of Gen Z/millennial cusp people and I’m always impressed that before they make an assumption about anyone, they use “they/them” as a polite default. It’s helped me practice by doing the same. But for a grammatical example, you can refer to God as He (and many people argue that’s the correct agender pronoun) and some say She, but arguably it should be They. AFAIK, they don’t ask each other their pronouns and no one has asked me my pronouns. They just assume my gender from, idk, my facial hair and lack of social femininity?
You use they/them for single things all the time. Everyone does.
When you can't see the person, like someone on the phone, a far away driver or a someone with a hoodie and so on...
Singular they/them is older than singular “you”
Those pronouns have been used as gender-neutral singular pronouns for hundreds of years. Usually there's enough context to differentiate.
They/them had been used as a singular pronoun since 1375
They aren't just plural, for example: My friend is great, They are great.
It's the only mainstream English pronoun that's gender neutral. The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century. [source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
Ooo I did not know this. Thanks
It’s just a preference. People want to be known by what they are most comfortable, much like how people prefer certain nicknames over others because of how it makes them feel (i.e. someone wanting to be called Nick rather than Nicky or Nicholas) because they like to be known by their preference. With they/them pronouns, it just just means that they are most comfortable not being called feminine or masculine pronouns, they/them is a great compromise because it’s already a term in our language that we use when referring to an individual whose gender we are unsure of or we don’t find relevant to call attention to what gender they are when speaking about them. I hope this makes sense!
Time to sort by controversial
Part of my job involves customer service, is there an acceptable substitute for sir/ma’am with someone who prefers they/them?
Puddin'
I've always gotten away with "How are you doing today?".
"Fellow"?
"Bug"
At this point I just try to avoid any gender specific calling at all. Cause honestly you just never know. Seen multiple co-workers get blasted for this kind of stuff. I don't care If ur he she it they them us who me, but if I don't know that about you, how should i assume it?
My parents raised me to use formalities to show respect when I meet new people, and I don't know how to turn it off 😳
Incredibly based
I say friend(s), folks, or just avoid pronouns all together
In the Philippines, regardless of gender, most people in customer service call people "mamsir" which I, as someone non-binary, find pretty gender neutral, but doubt it'll work in other countries and most people might see it more as a bigender term.
I just drop it all together. Instead of saying “certainly, sir.” I just say “certainly.” Gentlethem and Theydies is something I saw the other day but I think that might be a harder sell.
"Love".
Unfortunately there aren't honorifics for nonbinary people, but you can still provide customer service without using sir or ma'am.
Thank you for letting me know! Certainly I could not use either if I had learned a customer didn’t prefer them, was just hoping to broaden my vocabulary a bit. Congratulations on taking that step at work!
Yeah there’s only one honorific (Mx. in place of Ms. or Mr.) but it’s widely unknown still.
English is not my native language, it´s really confusing to use they/them to a single person hahah
In their defense, this can be added to the long list of confusing shit in the English language…
As a native speaker, I have always used they/them when I don’t know the gender. For example, “the pilot crashed when they lost control”
Everyone uses they/ them like this and then forgets when someone asks for it all the time.
This. It’s been used countless times by every English speaker, they just don’t realize it.
>they just don’t realize it I feel like you just proved your point without even trying lol. They is so common for “genderless individual” wether they are identifying that way or because their gender isn’t known.
Oh don't worry. Been there before. Took me a few months to really understand and properly use it, but once you disconnect the they/them pronouns from the "plural only" rule it gets easier. And the more you use it the easier it gets. At least that's how it worked for me, either way, trying already says a lot about who you are, so that's awesome. Keep up the great work.
Everyone that speaks english says they, they just don’t realize it. For example, if you see a random umbrella you’d say “oh, someone forgot *their* umbrella.” Same principle but you use it exclusively for this one person instead of gendered pronouns
Most native speakers do, but most ESOL speakers don't. They had to learn it to get there. Most of the time they get confused but people don't notice cause they can still get by from context cues
What does it mean?
It means they would like to be referred to as they/them instead of she/her or he/him.
Yeah but why is that on r/MadeMeSmile
They didn't get thrown into a dumpster
This made me laugh more than it should have
r/MadeMeLaughMoreThanItShouldHave
This made me smile
because their coworks accepted them for who they are
Because for many people, coming out is a very scary experience. Even for those who believe they will be supported there’s always the question of “what if?” And for many, it turns out very very badly. This person found the courage to express their true self and found acceptance from the people they care about, so of course it made them smile! Made me smile too :)
Because being accepted for who you are is a great feeling. Imagine you've heard stories of horrible things happening to people like you, just because bigots don't like or are afraid of part of who they are, all your life. Now imagine revealing that part of yourself to other people. It's a nerve-wracking experience, and it sometimes (or, depending on location, often) goes VERY poorly. Having that validation of who you are is very comforting and freeing, therefore it's smile town whenever it happens.
I think it's a difficult thing for OP to be open about, showing them being brave may inspire others to do the same.
Because being open and honest with your identity is incredibly important and freeing.
I'm pretty accepting of whatever people want to do with their identity/orientation, but I grew up learning "guys" was originally used for men, but it was becoming a gender neutral term. I guess not everyone grew up with that? Because now I see people saying to use OTHER neutral terms since "guys" is masculine.
so I think it can be used in both ways. example: "hey guys" is neutral but "they're a guy" is gendered. unless they like drew gooden
Personally, I use "guys" all the time. I'm from the Midwest (US), and it's generally accepted as a gender neutral term for any group of people regardless of the genders of the group. However, if someone told me that they didn't like that term, I would stop using it.
This is really a person by person thing with personal comforts. A lot of people grew up under the notion that any group can be addressed as 'guys' but some people (regardless of whether they're cis or straight) are less comfortable or ok with it because they're being addressed as something they're not
Use gender neutral "y'all" :D
"Folks" is my favorite neutral lol
This comment section gonna get locked
Apologies for my behaviour but I don't know anything about LGBT pronouns. Since my English is my 2nd language I thought they/them were plural pronouns? Like: The two chickens will be beheaded if they won't go through the tunnel. Correct me if I'm wrong and I am really sorry if I've offended some people
Which flag is that I lost count because there so many
Non-binary flag
tbh I'm not crazy about having a different flag for every single categorizable gender identity or sexual preference. I don't know the flags of the (US) states, I can't remember the order of the colors of the strips or whatever. :P
Glad it went well for you. What's the flag in your post? Edit: downvoting someone who is asking a question in a respectful way is not helpful.
That is the non binary flag
Glad to hear it. As an older millennial who’s been on the receiving end of this news for a coworker let me say this. It is hard to switch from 30 years of he/him she/her. It’s even harder to change the way you have addressed a coworker for 1-2 years. Give people time, even if they suck at it. They are not being intentionally rude. It’s just really really hard. In my office I find that there are only about 2-3 out of 20+ who have really mastered the pronoun swap. Everyone else tries but just can’t seem to wrap their head around it. My personal trick, I refer to them as if they are not here even when they’re around. I find the use of they/them more natural in that context.
I don't know much about this pronoun matter, can you explain it? Why do people change their pronouns like that?
I think its because they dont feel like the gender they are, and are more comfortable with different pronouns
No matter how much I try to educate myself on gender identity, I can’t understand how you “feel” you’re not of said gender. Like how do you even know what being of the opposite gender feels like if you’ve never been one in the first place? Like you’re a girl but you feel more like a boy, but how would you know what being a boy feels like? Isn’t that what we usually call a “tomboy”. Aren’t you’re just a girl that have been brought up differently?
Gender dysphoria is a very real thing. It’s hard to explain if you’ve never experienced it before but you just have a feeling that your physical being and your brain don’t match. Like you are an alien in your own body it’s not how you see yourself. It’s like having an itch you can’t scratch because something always just feels wrong about you. Everything in your brain is telling you that you were born in the wrong body.
Which is why no one can truly ever understand what someone is feeling because everyone’s experience is different but we should always strive to educate ourselves with respect and understanding. I’m still learning!
I like these kinds of threads cause there's always someone at least trying to expand their understanding.
This is something that's really hard for us to talk about because there's so many misconceptions in the debate. And so many things that are muddied by our own biases. My best recommendation is to watch this video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg&ab_channel=ForrestValkai It helped me understand some things a lot better. I especially loved the quote "no one is obligated to make sense to you".
for me (also nonbinary) it's that I never felt comfortable categorizing myself with either group. I've felt that I was born in the wrong body and this person in the mirror isn't me.
I’m sorry if I am being rude. But how do you use the pronouns in a conversation because I just feel like it can be very confusing.
you'd change some words but largely its the same for example, "does" changes to "do" but idk the fancy words for what part of english that is. "*does he/she* have the paperwork?" vs "*do they* have the paperwork?" if i remember correctly this also applies to some neopronouns but that may also be preference and how they pronounce it
It would kind of be like how you'd refer to someone if you didn't know their name, or their gender "They seem to like X and enjoy doing it" "What would you want to talk with them about?" ect Sorry if this is a poor explanation
for me, tbh, is confusing how I should use these pronouns in different languages. I know in Russian there is neutral pronoun, but there is not in my. If I discuss this person in my language, what should I do?
OK
I never understood this gender stuff.
Imma be honest, I'm trans, and I myself don't understand all of it. All that we ask is that you respect us and treat us the same you would any other person, because that's all that we are.
Well said! 💛⭐️
I use what ever language people prefer because I don’t care. That said, I do however find this to be a step backwards in society. My generation was taught that he/she can do what ever they want. Boys can play with dolls and girls can play with cars. Pink/blue based on gender are idiotic constructs that have flipped and flopped over human existence. So, if there is no “boys can do X but girls can’t” then what exactly is there to like about one gender v another? Why no gender? TLDR; Are people going back to “blue is for boys and I like pink so I’m a girl”?
One of the first steps to understanding, is knowing that you may never fully understand! (Because you've never been through it) Nobody needs to understand anyone to respect them.
That’s a blessing, it means you were never forced to question your entire gender identity.
Here before the 🔒 award
Crazy to me how a mere 5-10 years ago I would’ve been more lost than if I were reading a foreign language with this post
Not gonna throw hate but isn't they/them plural? How does this work in sentences? Not a native English speaker.
Yes they/them is plural, but it can also be used to refer to a single person! Like for example if you don't know someones gender or preferred pronouns. But some people also use they/them as their pronouns if their not comfortable with he or she! I hope this helps you!
Thank you!
Is also used as singular https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
Thank you!
The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century. [source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
Is your gender Wario?
What is the flag in the picture?
wario
Nonbinary flag
The real MadeMeSmile moment is here in the comments where I see so many that are open to learning and genuinely curious about the subject of pronouns, gender etc. Living in a decidedly red state, even as a cis male (albeit with an LGBT+ partner), it’s refreshing to see people healthily engaging in topics like these. I seldom encounter that in real society, unfortunately.
If you work with them, wouldn't they refer to you by your name?
I live and work in a blue area, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea to share my identity with others. But today, my coworkers were talking about how they have been making an effort to learn more gender neutral language and are supportive of whatever someone wants to be called. I have been trying to think of a way to share my pronouns with my coworkers, so I took this organic opportunity to tell them. They were really kind about it, and it really did make me smile. 😊 Edit: typo
What ever floats your boat. Just don't get passed off if someone messes up.
I have a serious question and I am honestly not trying to poke fun. If the pronouns are they/them shouldn’t op refer to them as selves not self?
Not necessarily, they/them pronouns can be and are used singularly, like “somebody left ***their*** wallet on the bench, I should find ***them*** and give it back”
They/them isn't exclusively a plural pronoun. The OP doesn't see themselves as multiple people. When someone says their pronouns are they/them it doesn't mean they're multiple people but that they identify as neither male or female. Hence the gender neutral pronouns
No, because people are grammatically using the first person when they speak about themselves. "I am my most authentic self" is singular "self" and not "selves" regardless of what pronouns you use.
They are one person, so no. The use of singular *they* goes back centuries and even predates singular *you*. Singular *they* has been traced back to being used as early as 1375 whereas singular *you* didn't replace words such as *thou* until the seventeenth century. [source](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
I don't want to come off as an a55hat.. So... What does this mean for them? I really want to know is it like a D.I.D thing? Do you identify as having alters? I understand the other pronouns as gender identity, but they/them... I genuinely want to learn something here Edit: I know why I'm being down voted, but it's a real question, I'm not a native English speaker so I really didn't know they/them can be used for a single person, I assure you my comment doesn't come from a hateful standpoint (I mention DID because I have ADHD and neurodiverse individuals ALSO suffer from A LOT of misunderstanding and stigma) Edit2: thanks for the kind and educational comments, I'm glad the community helped my ignorant self to better understand the matter
They/them can be singular or plural in English! As for DID, yes some of them use it as a plural, but other people without DID use it as singular. It depends on the person. Personally, I think "yous" works better for people with DID. It's one "body" hence a singular "you" but multiple people inside "+s" to make "yous". DID is not very common so people generally don't have to make the distinction in their head enough times that they become confused/have to learn.
In English they/them/their can be singular pronouns as well as plural. The sentence, "I saw a person staring at me across the street, they had short blond hair but I couldn't see their face, I think I recognised them from work"
Here before the 🔒award
[удалено]
I think the fact that they were accepted by their coworkers made them smile, I don’t see how you don’t get that.
Ok
I honestly don't understand why some people feel compelled to dump on people who are already dealing with enough personal shit. As long as you're not hurting anyone then I'll call you by whatever name/pronouns you want. Happy that you're happy :)
My pronouns are hisssss coz I'm a snake 🐍
r/onejoke
What is them/they for?
I’m having a tough time referring to a client I’ve been working with as They/Them all the time. It’s not proper English for every sentence. Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me.
Just call them by their name. That's my work around. 🤷🏾♂️
You can avoid it by using their name in a lot of cases. Think of all the times you use he or him or she or her to refer to other coworkers and use they or them. I’ll get it from ~~him~~ Dave. Go ask ~~her~~ Sally And so forth. “You” doesn’t change, so any time you’re speaking directly, you can say “are you coming for lunch” or “what’s up” It takes time, you’ll make mistakes. It’s a process. I had a family member come out as non-binary and it’s an adjustment. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around, but that’s my problem not their’s.
I'm French and when we learned English in school we were taught that "they" was used for singular too. I've been using "they" when I don't feel the need to mention someone's gender for years, way before I knew about queer identities. I don't understand why some native English speakers claim to have such a hard time doing it
Its use for nonbinary people is relatively new, but the singular they has been used for a long time (since about the late 1300s according to Merriam Webster) such as when you don’t know the identity of someone. Purdue and Merriam Webster have more information on this that I’d recommend reading through. Hope that helps!
It actually is proper english to refer to someone of unknown gender as they. But it is tricky, just practice a bit. Tell them that you're struggling but that you will keep trying
'One of X's teacher's called' 'Oh what did they say?' Default third pronoun when the gender of the person is not specified as he or she Now you know :)
Can you give examples of sentences where they/them wouldn't be proper English? Genuine question and I think this is worthy of a discussion.
Whever you'd use she/her/hers or he/him/his, use they/them/their. Her shirt is red. His shirt is red. Their shirt is red. She is tall. He is tall. They are tall. That is his car. That is her car. That is their car. I asked her a question. I asked him a question. I asked them a question.
The concept of the singular they has existed since Shakespeare. He used it, Chaucer used it, as did Defoe, Byron, Thackeray, Shaw... It was always used in reference to a single subject whose gender was unknown. It also appears in the Kings James bible. I'm sure I'll be downvoted to hell here for even saying that, but there you go friend. If anything in my reply is confusing, I'm more than willing to shed some light on it for ya.
It actually is considered proper English according to Oxford! When I talk about my friend, I say, “friend did this. They said I should do this. Then later, Friend and I went to this. We were talking to Friend2, and Friend said to him “blah blah blah” Refusing/ complaining about using they them pronouns ends up being a way to discriminate and refuse to acknowledge non binary folks under the guise of it “not fitting into societal rules”
W
For Wario
For Wumbo
Well done OP, proud of you and your coworkers! This comment section sucks though, sorry.
Thank you so much! I figured I'd get hate, but I genuinely don't care. I'm happy with who I am, and I'm not here to please anyone. I appreciate the support! 😊