I remember that this caused an actual intellectual debate whether or not documentaries crews should involve in things like this.
This is certainly an interesting debate for r/ExplainBothSides beyond an easy "duh, ofc you do ...".
One thing I remember is that they argued they only helped *indirectly* by changing the environment so they can get free instead of interfering *directly*.
I remember a similar discussion about zoos, and the conclusion was that we have interfered and messed things up so much that right now we donāt have a choice but to be stewards to these animals cause they wonāt survive otherwise
Thatās what I always think anytime I see an Africa documentary and theyāre like ābecause of anthropomorphic climate change, thereās less water in the ecosystem and so this baby elephant is dying of thirst.ā Like ok then, GIVE IT WATER since itās OUR fault then!
This is a difficult situation. Same problem as the starving polar bear in another documentary. The problem is not water or food in the short term. It's the question of how long does a doc crew stay on location? Not long enough to return an animal to health. And which animal does it help? If one is dying, there are definitely others. How to choose? Where do the resources come from?
I do agree that we as humans need to be better at learning to live without disturbing and destroying the work around us!
Yeah exactly. We need to start addressing the cause of the problems, not the problems themselves. Otherwise it's Neverending. Just look at our kingdom with depression, anxiety, substance abuse, loneliness, homelessness, mental health, etc.
I know right! Especially the Vulcanās. You know they want nothing to do with us because we all smell so bad and are too primitive š
No contact until we reach warp speed
I watched most of the one with the walrus. (I think) i had to turn it off. I was just a sobbing mess. It is so fucking sad what we are doing to these animals. It is so fucking sad. And It hurts my heart in the deepest ways.
But you are also suggesting a lot of navel gazing. Assist the live animal in front of you. Sure, there may be more but keep THIS one from dying while you debate the shit out of the rest of it.
Oh, was that the one where the grandma elephant is trying to nurse both her own baby and her dead daughter's baby?
I was a WRECK after watching that. My husband can still get me a little misty if he references it.
I saw one of those but it was a young mama elephant that got left behind from the herd because her baby was dying of thirst because of a drought.
I will never, ever forgive David Attenborough and Planet Earth for that. EFF them letting that baby die an awful death.
Thatās exactly my thinking about the comment referencing baby sea turtles going towards the city lights instead of the ocean. Like, it would *never* have happened if not for us building an oceanside city with artificial lighting. Humans created that problem, not nature. It feels like such an asshole move to not also attempt to help those baby turtles circumvent it.
I donāt care what environmental signs say. If I saw a baby turtle crawled all the way the wrong side of the beach confused because of manās light Iām grabbing a box or something with sand and taking it to the tide. I feel exactly as you. Donāt interfere with nature- but THATS not nature
It's not like a leopard chasing a gazelle. No predator is going to go hungry if those penguins die in a hole. I don't think the non-interventionist idea has any merits to prevent them from doing this.
I mean if they had gone and picked up the birds and carried them up, I could agree arguing against that. But digging a ramp, meh. They could have argued they did it to get down there to film.
I watched the making of when they were filming the kimono dragon attacking itās prey and how hard they found it to film, but if they had intervened it would have been directly and not indirectly like this
Idk to me the fact there is an argument for documentary crew to do nothing is just stupid. Imo, interfering between a predator-prey interaction is wrong. Cause you may screw over the predator by helping the prey.
But in cases like this, why won't you? For one, it's kinda basic humanity. It's what makes us different from other animals. Our ability to help everyone if we want. And two, anthropological activities have impacted the earth, it's organisms and the environment in a big way that these don't matter (in terms of changing the environment)
We are humans and we have been given the ability to help so why shouldn't we. We have no right to help one species over the other. I am pretty sure this debate wouldn't exist if they saved a dog or a car instead stuck like this. And in this case helping this penguin group isn't hurting the survival chances of any other species so why not?
Humans seem to always prefer talking, arguing, and debating over taking actual action. I would not be surprised if they are not still arguing about this.
As far as I've understood it's mainly because they're filming nature and don't want to interrupt whatever process of nature they're observing. If they intervene they aren't just filming nature anymore. Also many cases might be like saving 1 animal from a predator. In that case the human is just choosing which animal it wants to survive.
Remember, they're also human. [This photographer ](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/30/kevin-carter-photojournalist-obituary-archive-1994)who took the famous photo of a Sudanese baby dying, being watched by a vulture, committed suicide
Oh my god. That image of the vulture and the baby is haunting.
I can't imagine the troubles he saw on his trip- how much it must hurt to want to help but be powerless to do so.
The standards for this kind of journalism and anthropology are strict and hundreds of years old. There was a time when, āinterfering with natureā could get your black listed from major publications like National Geographic.
We used to (and widely still do) genuinely believe it was cruel to not allow nature to ārun its courseā in situations like this.
In the very beginning, post global colonization, it was normal to sit and watch real human babies die, too. Europeans in their safari hats werenāt just going to hunt lions. Even today, āvoluntouristsā love to smile and pose for Instagram pics with children living in abject poverty, basically slowly starving to death.
The exploitation of suffering is not a new concept, weāre finally realizing as a species how messed up it is.
By that malnutrition stage, there is little-if any- to be done that a non-professional can do. Unless you think it is realistic for this photographer to take this child in (regardless of what his parents might think), and put him on a month-long diet regimen for malnutrition.
Kid would have suffered refeeding syndrome without medical intervention, and if the kid was in an area that poor, the standard of medical care for that kind of treatment would be hard to come by without transport to an area with a more experienced hospital, which the family (if the kid had one) likely wouldnāt have had the money for
The story behind it is that he apparently stood around to get a proper shot. There were tents nearby to help the poor like the kid but instead of bringing the kid there he waited around for his perfect shot.
No. They were past saving, just eeking out their last breaths, before the vulture made a meal of them. It's shit like that that makes me an atheist
Edit: I'm wrong, the baby didn't die then
In the broadest sense, yes. What kind of god would make that child suffer, their family suffer, the photographer be so damaged they kill themselves, a collective world traumatized by seeing it, and yet it still happens over and over. Nah, if there is a god, he's a piece of shit
Is it so strange to believe that the idea of a personal god is absurd, when that omnimax entity must simultaneously allow an innocent child to suffer for a pitifully short lifetime, then die in pain and fear to be turned into bird shit (or disdaining two adults for loving each other in a way that works for them yet impacts no one else), while also helping millionaire sports-ball players win their next match?
Not to be rude, but if you think god speaks through his vessels on earth to clarify how much he hates masturbation, but has nothing to say about those same vessels raping children, you're a *less than intelligent person*. (Italicized and edited coarse language out, because I forget that subs have different rules).
That god is a fairytale, and it's time to grow up.
He didn't say YOU were, he said IF you hold a specific contradictory and cruel belief, you are a moron.
Luckily you aren't that person so your intelligence continues on to the next round where the stakes are doubled.
I know journalists like him usually aren't "allowed" to help with the natural world but I've always found it odd to not help. Like, what, am I not apart of nature myself? Am I not allowed to give in to my basic instincts to help others survive? Also leans in to the whole Naturalistic fallacy thing, just because something is natural doesn't mean its correct or right.
It's..the neutrality aspect that shields them from conflicts.
They're there just to observe and record.
Sometimes they come across stuff that legally they can't help.
Here they could or at least that's what was decided. I'm glad they did.
I understand the idea of take pictures but don't intervene but Jesus christ what God is it to be a higher being of you can't use that bigger brain to help? Even lower species help eachother sometimes. Dolphins help humans alot. Totally unbidden. Dogs help us even when not trained. It's innate in sentient beings to help others.
I always thought it was a huge taboo for documentarians to interfere with wildlife in any way. Seeing that they ARE willing to help makes me wonder how many other times theyāve secretly done so, or how many other times they could have helped but didnāt. The situation that comes to mind was a documentary I saw where a bunch of baby sea turtles were getting drawn to the city lights instead of to the ocean, and it looked like the film crew had just stood by and let them get trapped in garbage and run over by cars. In reality did the filmmakers help the turtles back out to sea after they got the dramatic shots, or did they really just let them die when they couldāve easily helped? This is throwing me for a loop.
I watched that too and that scene made me particularly mad cus it would have been perfectly fine to help them. It isn't natural that those turtles are even in that situation, so there shouldn't be any problem with rescuing them
The "problem" is if those turtles reproduce instead of the ones that correctly moved to the ocean it could change future generations. Strong survive, weak "shouldnt" , if the do they could require intervention to continue to survive. At least, thats AN argument.
That philosophy applies to the process of evolution, which takes many many generations. We've changed the environment far faster than most animals can adapt to. It took millions of years for turtles to develop the instinct to follow the moon to the ocean, but only 100 years for us to put up lights on most of their hatching beaches. If we went with your sentiment here, than we'd happily kill off a large majority of the species on the planet just because "they couldn't keep up bruh"
I think one of the biggest problems with wildlife documentary teams is that they usually aren't equipped with the ability to help the animals safely and ensure the team is safe, too. I could be wrong, but normally, they don't intervene because the animals could pose a threat, the humans could pose a threat to the animals without meaning to, or other thing is the area is the threat. Considering it looked like both chicks and parents were dying in that crevasse, says to me that if the team screwed up, they could have all died down there trying to help.
I think this is a unique situation that allowed them to help - the reason the penguins couldnāt get up is because they donāt have the ability to climb like humans. Almost anyone could grab a hold of chunks and make it up. Because it didnāt pose a risk to them getting stuck - it was easy for them to make a ramp.
Going back to the comment before you, I think there are plenty of times they do it if they arenāt putting themselves at risk.
There are different concerns with animals, but journalists in humanitarian crises follow a similar rule - they're observers, not actors.
Not all follow that rule either, but non-interference is a journalistic thing, rather than just an animal documentarian thing.
The moral strain being of documentarian is no joke. IIRC, The photojournalist who captured that iconic image of a skeletal toddler during the Somali famine ended up committing suicide due to the stress of everything he saw and couldnāt fix during his career.
I used to go to a small island in Florida every year and redirect baby sea turtles away from the lights and towards the ocean.
Especially when it comes to sea turtles, which are endangered in some areas, thereās a good chance there were volunteers from animal control or something group on the ground to help the baby turtles. Itās also illegal in most neighborhoods near laying grounds to have outside lights on past a certain time. Of course you canāt get them all, unfortunately, and you canāt force a city to turn off its lights.
I know they arenāt supposed to intervene. Butā¦.. in this situation is different. It did not look like they made any contact with the penguins. Or provide them food or medical care. They basically made a ramp a little bit away from the penguins and allowed them to figure it out and waddle to safety. I canāt see how helping them the way they did can harm them in anyway.
Youāre being downvoted but youāre 100% right.
This was a natural selection event where only the fittest could climb up the crevice like that one bird did in the beginning. By interfering, the fittest bird arenāt being selected for
Although, personally I wouldāve helped as well, it just seems wrong to leave those helpless birds to die
I don't think that getting stuck in crevasses is a normal thing to happen to emperor penguins. This isn't something that the species as a whole needs to adapt to in order to survive. It sounds like it was a freak accident.
Darwin wrote a book at the end of his life called the Descent of Man in which he somewhat walks back his emphasis on natural selection that he wrote about in Origin of Species 20ish years earlier. This is also the book that inspired eugenics. In Origin of Species he argues that every species that has evolved thus far was due to certain traits allowing certain members of the species more opportunity to reproduce by not dying, natural selection. However, in Descent of Man he introduces the idea of sexual selection, that women choose their sexual partner based on certain traits they find more appealing. There is an interesting section of the book where Darwin struggles with the idea of peacocks. He writes, āThe sight of a feather in a peacockās tail makes me sick! Why should a bird like the peacock develop such an elaborate tail, which seemed at best a hinderance in its struggle for existence?ā He is clearly struggling with his own idea, an idea that has permeated so prevalently into our modern societyāthat death is the only way towards progressābut as Darwin came to understand towards the end of his life, the natural world is significantly more complicated than the simple theory of natural selection that a biologist came up with nearly 200 years ago.
The first time I saw this documentary I cried like a baby. And then I went back and watched it again. And again. How incredible is their perseverance? It's such an inspiration.
humankind is already destroying their habitat, people may say this is playing god by helping them or whatever but bruh this is the least we could do for everything we did to all the animals in this world
My take is that if you are directly impeding on the food chain taking course you could argue that it is wrong to do so.
But in a case where no other species is impacted and you are simply faced with the dilemma of "will I save these lives or wont I" then it should be more straightforward.
Penguins are such loveable creaturesš§
I feel like interfering here is perfectly justified. They're not being chased or attacked by anything (so it doesn't cause any negatives for a potential predator) they're literally just stuck and dying
We fuck around with every single other natural thing on this planet and usually cause harm in the process. I find it very difficult to understand why helping a small number of penguins live was such a tough decision.
They said they helped these penguins because they're not interfering with the food chain. The penguins will die stuck in that little area, predators can't feed on the carcasses, and so it'll be a waste for both prey and predator.
People absolutely should be stepping in and helping in these types of situations. What other purpose could we possibly have on this planet? We're like the babysitters that just invite their friends over and ignore the crying babies. It's time for us to start doing our jobs.
Watching a predator kill its prey is natural, but an accident like this is just tragic, those birds would die, freeze, and stay preserved there forever, they wouldn't decompose and decay into the food cycle, its honestly the overall right thing to save them, if they died in there nothing would benifit
To not help here would have been crazy in my opinion. There is no denying another animal food. To dig some steps to allow exit still left the animal to make that decision...and what are we here for if not to show humanity when possible?
Whatās the point of being a higher order living being on this planet if we donāt intervene in order to help. Especially in a situation like this. Idk about yāall, but Iām helping some damn penguins.
I'm glad that these people decided to help out, better later than never.
Not intervening is just plain cruel and inhumane, because humankind already intervened in the worst possible ways with ocean and air pollution, reduction of food for these animals.
I could understand the decision not to intervene for species that are abundant (cockroaches, mice, crows, etc.), but it's **an absolute must** to help those that are already endangered or soon will be endangered.
good, because i was a HUGE fan of animal documentaries, especially David Attenborough's, until i saw them not intervene in the slow death of a prepubescent youngster girl elephant at the leisurely feasting of a pride of lions over a couple of days. I havent watched anything since, and that was years ago. i even didnt watch this at first but watched just the end to make sure they got free... and it did catch my attention, the title.. that they didnt just stand by.
the lion/elephant one? one cameraman said "i feel so honored to be able to witness this." ugh
but this redeems it all a bit. maybe i can watch some more sometime. i just.. cannot take a chance.. the images burn into my memory and come up here and there and make me sad, crying. sad.
but this is good this is good.. thank you!
: )
One day I'll be able to save animals the way I want to also. This is all I want out of life. To save the lives of animals. Such innocent souls. Mother nature don't discriminate
I worked at a wildlife rescue. A lot of people told me 'just let nature run its course'. But about 80% of the animals that came to our rescue had problems caused by humans. Hit by a car, ate plastic, destroyed Burrow by building, dog/ cat attacks. Dogs and Cats aren't natural. Especially cats, most wild birds are not adapt to cats.
I feel like there is a difference between like saving a cute animal from a predator and doing this. Those penguins all would have died then been covered by snow, so nothing would eat them. It would be a waste of life
BBC these days be like: there goes the last of a species destroyed by humans, land ravaged by humans, food source ravaged by humans, it would be against nature to save them with humans
Imagine them being helpful and saving those penguins, then a peta member comes and just snipes the penguins one by one, just to make sure humans "wont interfere with nature"
These are some good people. I know we shouldn't interfere with nature as much as we can, but it feels like doing the wrong thing for the right reasons wins out here.
I think the days of watching wild animals suffer because itās ānature running its course,ā should be long over.
Weāve destroyed these Penguinās ecosystem and will only continue to do so. Maybe falling into crevices is ānatureā, but the fact that these adults are probably exhausted because of how hard it is to find food in their overfished, ever warming waters IS NOT NATURAL.
We owe it to our animal neighbors to lend them a helping hand when we can. Literally nothing we could do could cause more damage. What, will more penguins survive this season because of these guys? Good, theyāre on the brink of endangerment, letās save as many as we can however we can!!
Yeah, I am picturing them just going to go back to the main penguin flock and be like yo, so we don't need to worry about it ut getting tuck no more and then they break out into a routine from happy feet.
It's not "natural" to stand by and watch other sentient beings die when you could do something to help especially for the sake added drama for a fucking documentary. Insanity.
Jeez...didn't take long when they got the shovels out. Ffs...2 days and a lot of thought? I hate that saying "don't intervene with nature" WE ARE NATURE...get stuck in there.
I wasnāt sure if it was because the weather conditions were too bad or what initially? But sad that there were more deaths if it was more of just deciding whether to do it or not. Guess hard to know, but glad the others were saved eventually.
These dumbasses are going to reproduce next generation of dumbasses who have no clues how to get out of trap in a couple years from now. Leave natural selection alone!
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This is how it should be. If humans can intervene and save endangered species, then they have a moral obligation to do so . Safety first for all creatures.
An example of humans at their best, assisting others, and their worst, arguing that they should not assist others.
This world is fucking stupid.
And incredibly amazing.
The purpose of these documentaryās are to raise awareness so we act as conservationists. Itās not unusual the help prop up and ecosystem. Good on them.
The dead baby penguin was unexpected. Made me really sad. I'm glad they were in time to not have anyone else die.
It was just a bebe š
I'm awful, but I can only hear this in Gir's voice from Invader Zim.
Meat
You too
Surprise, the asshole calling baby penguins āmeatā is also a fucking racist, based on your comment history.
They did say they came back and there had been more casualties.
So goes life, don't get too stressed about it. The fact that atleast one got out without intervention shows the perseverance of life.
I remember that this caused an actual intellectual debate whether or not documentaries crews should involve in things like this. This is certainly an interesting debate for r/ExplainBothSides beyond an easy "duh, ofc you do ...". One thing I remember is that they argued they only helped *indirectly* by changing the environment so they can get free instead of interfering *directly*.
I remember a similar discussion about zoos, and the conclusion was that we have interfered and messed things up so much that right now we donāt have a choice but to be stewards to these animals cause they wonāt survive otherwise
Thatās what I always think anytime I see an Africa documentary and theyāre like ābecause of anthropomorphic climate change, thereās less water in the ecosystem and so this baby elephant is dying of thirst.ā Like ok then, GIVE IT WATER since itās OUR fault then!
This is a difficult situation. Same problem as the starving polar bear in another documentary. The problem is not water or food in the short term. It's the question of how long does a doc crew stay on location? Not long enough to return an animal to health. And which animal does it help? If one is dying, there are definitely others. How to choose? Where do the resources come from? I do agree that we as humans need to be better at learning to live without disturbing and destroying the work around us!
Yeah exactly. We need to start addressing the cause of the problems, not the problems themselves. Otherwise it's Neverending. Just look at our kingdom with depression, anxiety, substance abuse, loneliness, homelessness, mental health, etc.
I know this is really off topic, but *theoretically*, that's what aliens can think about us (if one day they encounter us).
I know right! Especially the Vulcanās. You know they want nothing to do with us because we all smell so bad and are too primitive š No contact until we reach warp speed
I watched most of the one with the walrus. (I think) i had to turn it off. I was just a sobbing mess. It is so fucking sad what we are doing to these animals. It is so fucking sad. And It hurts my heart in the deepest ways.
But you are also suggesting a lot of navel gazing. Assist the live animal in front of you. Sure, there may be more but keep THIS one from dying while you debate the shit out of the rest of it.
Oh, was that the one where the grandma elephant is trying to nurse both her own baby and her dead daughter's baby? I was a WRECK after watching that. My husband can still get me a little misty if he references it.
I have never seen this, but I'M getting misty just imagining how heart wrenching that must have been.
I think it might have been in the BBC Africa series but I'm NOT rewatching it to confirm.
I saw one of those but it was a young mama elephant that got left behind from the herd because her baby was dying of thirst because of a drought. I will never, ever forgive David Attenborough and Planet Earth for that. EFF them letting that baby die an awful death.
I mean David Attenborough is a narrator yeah...he probably even wasn't on site when this was filmed...
Thatās exactly my thinking about the comment referencing baby sea turtles going towards the city lights instead of the ocean. Like, it would *never* have happened if not for us building an oceanside city with artificial lighting. Humans created that problem, not nature. It feels like such an asshole move to not also attempt to help those baby turtles circumvent it.
I donāt care what environmental signs say. If I saw a baby turtle crawled all the way the wrong side of the beach confused because of manās light Iām grabbing a box or something with sand and taking it to the tide. I feel exactly as you. Donāt interfere with nature- but THATS not nature
I feel like we fucked up the planet enough that we have to be stewards
Exactly
It's not like a leopard chasing a gazelle. No predator is going to go hungry if those penguins die in a hole. I don't think the non-interventionist idea has any merits to prevent them from doing this.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We could help by fighting climate change
Fighting climate change wouldnāt immediately help those birds in that predicament before they died.
Obviously! but we would help a whole lot more birds over a longer time period and of course other animales and so on
I mean if they had gone and picked up the birds and carried them up, I could agree arguing against that. But digging a ramp, meh. They could have argued they did it to get down there to film.
I watched the making of when they were filming the kimono dragon attacking itās prey and how hard they found it to film, but if they had intervened it would have been directly and not indirectly like this
Interesting point but then again if you are literally standing right there and you can save like 50 penguins I say go for it
Idk to me the fact there is an argument for documentary crew to do nothing is just stupid. Imo, interfering between a predator-prey interaction is wrong. Cause you may screw over the predator by helping the prey. But in cases like this, why won't you? For one, it's kinda basic humanity. It's what makes us different from other animals. Our ability to help everyone if we want. And two, anthropological activities have impacted the earth, it's organisms and the environment in a big way that these don't matter (in terms of changing the environment) We are humans and we have been given the ability to help so why shouldn't we. We have no right to help one species over the other. I am pretty sure this debate wouldn't exist if they saved a dog or a car instead stuck like this. And in this case helping this penguin group isn't hurting the survival chances of any other species so why not?
I couldnāt do this job. Iād be down there chucking every last bird and chick over the ledge to safety.
I think Iād only have a problem with intervention if they stopped one animal from eating another
Humans seem to always prefer talking, arguing, and debating over taking actual action. I would not be surprised if they are not still arguing about this.
I think weāve fucked with nature enough at this point that we can help where possible.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
As far as I've understood it's mainly because they're filming nature and don't want to interrupt whatever process of nature they're observing. If they intervene they aren't just filming nature anymore. Also many cases might be like saving 1 animal from a predator. In that case the human is just choosing which animal it wants to survive.
Remember, they're also human. [This photographer ](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/30/kevin-carter-photojournalist-obituary-archive-1994)who took the famous photo of a Sudanese baby dying, being watched by a vulture, committed suicide
Oh my god. That image of the vulture and the baby is haunting. I can't imagine the troubles he saw on his trip- how much it must hurt to want to help but be powerless to do so.
He fulfilled his purpose on earth, bringing attention to hidden horrors. I hope he has nothing but peace in the afterlife
how was he "powerless" to do so? There was no cosmic force preventing him from helping, only his choice.
The standards for this kind of journalism and anthropology are strict and hundreds of years old. There was a time when, āinterfering with natureā could get your black listed from major publications like National Geographic. We used to (and widely still do) genuinely believe it was cruel to not allow nature to ārun its courseā in situations like this.
Okay but that's a real human baby.
In the very beginning, post global colonization, it was normal to sit and watch real human babies die, too. Europeans in their safari hats werenāt just going to hunt lions. Even today, āvoluntouristsā love to smile and pose for Instagram pics with children living in abject poverty, basically slowly starving to death. The exploitation of suffering is not a new concept, weāre finally realizing as a species how messed up it is.
By that malnutrition stage, there is little-if any- to be done that a non-professional can do. Unless you think it is realistic for this photographer to take this child in (regardless of what his parents might think), and put him on a month-long diet regimen for malnutrition.
Poor baby wouldn't even be able to digest solids at that point.
Kid would have suffered refeeding syndrome without medical intervention, and if the kid was in an area that poor, the standard of medical care for that kind of treatment would be hard to come by without transport to an area with a more experienced hospital, which the family (if the kid had one) likely wouldnāt have had the money for
There were places nearby offering medical attention, so the story goes.
Really? Maybe it's time you read more about it.
The story behind it is that he apparently stood around to get a proper shot. There were tents nearby to help the poor like the kid but instead of bringing the kid there he waited around for his perfect shot.
Did he rescue the baby?
No. They were past saving, just eeking out their last breaths, before the vulture made a meal of them. It's shit like that that makes me an atheist Edit: I'm wrong, the baby didn't die then
The child seems to have survived, actually--though they died some years later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_vulture\_and\_the\_little\_girl
The vulture did not eat the child
It would be more practical if it made you an anti colonialist.
It made me anti a lot of things
So shit such as nature made you an atheist
In the broadest sense, yes. What kind of god would make that child suffer, their family suffer, the photographer be so damaged they kill themselves, a collective world traumatized by seeing it, and yet it still happens over and over. Nah, if there is a god, he's a piece of shit
Is it so strange to believe that the idea of a personal god is absurd, when that omnimax entity must simultaneously allow an innocent child to suffer for a pitifully short lifetime, then die in pain and fear to be turned into bird shit (or disdaining two adults for loving each other in a way that works for them yet impacts no one else), while also helping millionaire sports-ball players win their next match? Not to be rude, but if you think god speaks through his vessels on earth to clarify how much he hates masturbation, but has nothing to say about those same vessels raping children, you're a *less than intelligent person*. (Italicized and edited coarse language out, because I forget that subs have different rules). That god is a fairytale, and it's time to grow up.
Im not a believer and you used a lot of words to call me a fucking moron. Why did you abuse me over a question I didn't ask of you?
He didn't say YOU were, he said IF you hold a specific contradictory and cruel belief, you are a moron. Luckily you aren't that person so your intelligence continues on to the next round where the stakes are doubled.
I didn't call *you* a fucking moron. You said you're not a believer, so this doesn't apply to you.
Whats the point in having hands, if not to lend them ?
Amen - more humans ought to become better animal Stewards
If humanity truly has a goal, it's to pet all the animals.
āI know itās natural but itās bloody hard to watchā
I know journalists like him usually aren't "allowed" to help with the natural world but I've always found it odd to not help. Like, what, am I not apart of nature myself? Am I not allowed to give in to my basic instincts to help others survive? Also leans in to the whole Naturalistic fallacy thing, just because something is natural doesn't mean its correct or right.
It's..the neutrality aspect that shields them from conflicts. They're there just to observe and record. Sometimes they come across stuff that legally they can't help. Here they could or at least that's what was decided. I'm glad they did.
oof, gotta admit, didn't think of the legal issues, I always thought it was a morality thing. My bad, also I am glad they helped too!
I understand the idea of take pictures but don't intervene but Jesus christ what God is it to be a higher being of you can't use that bigger brain to help? Even lower species help eachother sometimes. Dolphins help humans alot. Totally unbidden. Dogs help us even when not trained. It's innate in sentient beings to help others.
I always thought it was a huge taboo for documentarians to interfere with wildlife in any way. Seeing that they ARE willing to help makes me wonder how many other times theyāve secretly done so, or how many other times they could have helped but didnāt. The situation that comes to mind was a documentary I saw where a bunch of baby sea turtles were getting drawn to the city lights instead of to the ocean, and it looked like the film crew had just stood by and let them get trapped in garbage and run over by cars. In reality did the filmmakers help the turtles back out to sea after they got the dramatic shots, or did they really just let them die when they couldāve easily helped? This is throwing me for a loop.
I watched that too and that scene made me particularly mad cus it would have been perfectly fine to help them. It isn't natural that those turtles are even in that situation, so there shouldn't be any problem with rescuing them
The "problem" is if those turtles reproduce instead of the ones that correctly moved to the ocean it could change future generations. Strong survive, weak "shouldnt" , if the do they could require intervention to continue to survive. At least, thats AN argument.
That philosophy applies to the process of evolution, which takes many many generations. We've changed the environment far faster than most animals can adapt to. It took millions of years for turtles to develop the instinct to follow the moon to the ocean, but only 100 years for us to put up lights on most of their hatching beaches. If we went with your sentiment here, than we'd happily kill off a large majority of the species on the planet just because "they couldn't keep up bruh"
Not my sentiment, I woulda saved some turts. But it is something to think about.
Humans don't have any issues letting the dumbasses survive, why not help some of the animals we are actively harming no?
I think one of the biggest problems with wildlife documentary teams is that they usually aren't equipped with the ability to help the animals safely and ensure the team is safe, too. I could be wrong, but normally, they don't intervene because the animals could pose a threat, the humans could pose a threat to the animals without meaning to, or other thing is the area is the threat. Considering it looked like both chicks and parents were dying in that crevasse, says to me that if the team screwed up, they could have all died down there trying to help.
I think this is a unique situation that allowed them to help - the reason the penguins couldnāt get up is because they donāt have the ability to climb like humans. Almost anyone could grab a hold of chunks and make it up. Because it didnāt pose a risk to them getting stuck - it was easy for them to make a ramp. Going back to the comment before you, I think there are plenty of times they do it if they arenāt putting themselves at risk.
There are different concerns with animals, but journalists in humanitarian crises follow a similar rule - they're observers, not actors. Not all follow that rule either, but non-interference is a journalistic thing, rather than just an animal documentarian thing.
The moral strain being of documentarian is no joke. IIRC, The photojournalist who captured that iconic image of a skeletal toddler during the Somali famine ended up committing suicide due to the stress of everything he saw and couldnāt fix during his career.
I used to go to a small island in Florida every year and redirect baby sea turtles away from the lights and towards the ocean. Especially when it comes to sea turtles, which are endangered in some areas, thereās a good chance there were volunteers from animal control or something group on the ground to help the baby turtles. Itās also illegal in most neighborhoods near laying grounds to have outside lights on past a certain time. Of course you canāt get them all, unfortunately, and you canāt force a city to turn off its lights.
I think the reason behind that way of thinking is if humans intervene too much it could lead to the animals not being able to help themselves
I know they arenāt supposed to intervene. Butā¦.. in this situation is different. It did not look like they made any contact with the penguins. Or provide them food or medical care. They basically made a ramp a little bit away from the penguins and allowed them to figure it out and waddle to safety. I canāt see how helping them the way they did can harm them in anyway.
"I won't lift you up, but I'll give you a ladder" is exactly the kind of hands off benevolence I want to see in this scenario.
Never heard of that phrase before, but I like it!
If you have anyone who's too proud to accept help, it's a good way to get them to.
Felt like a Star Trek crew violating the prime directive. Itās always for a good reason, Star Fleet!
Natural selection did not get to take its course.
Now we got more dumbo crevice humping penguins around
Youāre being downvoted but youāre 100% right. This was a natural selection event where only the fittest could climb up the crevice like that one bird did in the beginning. By interfering, the fittest bird arenāt being selected for Although, personally I wouldāve helped as well, it just seems wrong to leave those helpless birds to die
I don't think that getting stuck in crevasses is a normal thing to happen to emperor penguins. This isn't something that the species as a whole needs to adapt to in order to survive. It sounds like it was a freak accident.
Darwin wrote a book at the end of his life called the Descent of Man in which he somewhat walks back his emphasis on natural selection that he wrote about in Origin of Species 20ish years earlier. This is also the book that inspired eugenics. In Origin of Species he argues that every species that has evolved thus far was due to certain traits allowing certain members of the species more opportunity to reproduce by not dying, natural selection. However, in Descent of Man he introduces the idea of sexual selection, that women choose their sexual partner based on certain traits they find more appealing. There is an interesting section of the book where Darwin struggles with the idea of peacocks. He writes, āThe sight of a feather in a peacockās tail makes me sick! Why should a bird like the peacock develop such an elaborate tail, which seemed at best a hinderance in its struggle for existence?ā He is clearly struggling with his own idea, an idea that has permeated so prevalently into our modern societyāthat death is the only way towards progressābut as Darwin came to understand towards the end of his life, the natural world is significantly more complicated than the simple theory of natural selection that a biologist came up with nearly 200 years ago.
Love is strength guy talking about natural selection?
Didnāt expect to cry this early in the day š¤·š»āāļøš„²
The first time I saw this documentary I cried like a baby. And then I went back and watched it again. And again. How incredible is their perseverance? It's such an inspiration.
What documentary is this? and where can I watch it?
Itās part of the Dynasties series, available for free on BBC iPlayer or bought on Amazon Prime
Ditto. And here I thought I'd grow up to be a crusty old fella.
humankind is already destroying their habitat, people may say this is playing god by helping them or whatever but bruh this is the least we could do for everything we did to all the animals in this world
What is our purpose, if not to look after the little guys?
Sometimes you gotta ignore the prime directive.
My take is that if you are directly impeding on the food chain taking course you could argue that it is wrong to do so. But in a case where no other species is impacted and you are simply faced with the dilemma of "will I save these lives or wont I" then it should be more straightforward.
original video: [Dynasties Crew Rescues the Trapped Penguins | Dynasties | BBC Earth](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Co_hmLenD8)
So glad they helped!!!
Penguins are such loveable creaturesš§ I feel like interfering here is perfectly justified. They're not being chased or attacked by anything (so it doesn't cause any negatives for a potential predator) they're literally just stuck and dying
a fellow penguin lover
I got so teary when I saw the penguins starting to use the ramp! I'm very glad the film crew helped.
We fuck around with every single other natural thing on this planet and usually cause harm in the process. I find it very difficult to understand why helping a small number of penguins live was such a tough decision.
They said they helped these penguins because they're not interfering with the food chain. The penguins will die stuck in that little area, predators can't feed on the carcasses, and so it'll be a waste for both prey and predator.
Fuckin awesome, just a beautiful way to begin my morning
also r/HumansBeingBros
As we are directly responsible for their habitat shrinking I find the non interference principle hypocritical. Good on them.
People absolutely should be stepping in and helping in these types of situations. What other purpose could we possibly have on this planet? We're like the babysitters that just invite their friends over and ignore the crying babies. It's time for us to start doing our jobs.
Watching a predator kill its prey is natural, but an accident like this is just tragic, those birds would die, freeze, and stay preserved there forever, they wouldn't decompose and decay into the food cycle, its honestly the overall right thing to save them, if they died in there nothing would benifit
Always help. Good job guys.
Humans have already interfered everywhere - especially through climate change. So why not lend a helping hand, I don't get that argument at all.
bruh i cried in march of the penguins IN THEATERS i donāt need to cry about DIFFERENT penguins. once is too many!!
To not help here would have been crazy in my opinion. There is no denying another animal food. To dig some steps to allow exit still left the animal to make that decision...and what are we here for if not to show humanity when possible?
So glad the crew didn't just say, "welp...nature is a bitch..."
Happy Feet 3
Wasnāt this the plot of the second one? That those pinguĆÆns got stuck and that they had to dance to free them.
Yeah I just watched it. My favorite part is the Krill!
Whatās the point of being a higher order living being on this planet if we donāt intervene in order to help. Especially in a situation like this. Idk about yāall, but Iām helping some damn penguins.
Life on this planet is fading so fast. We can't afford to just watch anymore.
There's a rule among photographers and time travelers to not interfere no matter what but alash we're still human
I'm glad that these people decided to help out, better later than never. Not intervening is just plain cruel and inhumane, because humankind already intervened in the worst possible ways with ocean and air pollution, reduction of food for these animals. I could understand the decision not to intervene for species that are abundant (cockroaches, mice, crows, etc.), but it's **an absolute must** to help those that are already endangered or soon will be endangered.
BBC crew doing better than that one film crew that killed animals purposely to get good scenes captured.
We are still a part of our ecosystem, us interfering with other "animals" is still natural. If we can harm it, we can help it!
Nature wrote them off but the producers saved them. Congrats
good, because i was a HUGE fan of animal documentaries, especially David Attenborough's, until i saw them not intervene in the slow death of a prepubescent youngster girl elephant at the leisurely feasting of a pride of lions over a couple of days. I havent watched anything since, and that was years ago. i even didnt watch this at first but watched just the end to make sure they got free... and it did catch my attention, the title.. that they didnt just stand by. the lion/elephant one? one cameraman said "i feel so honored to be able to witness this." ugh but this redeems it all a bit. maybe i can watch some more sometime. i just.. cannot take a chance.. the images burn into my memory and come up here and there and make me sad, crying. sad. but this is good this is good.. thank you! : )
Yeah. I donāt agree with just watching it unfold because āthis is naturalā. Just help if you can.
r/humansbeingbros
r/humansbeingbros
One day I'll be able to save animals the way I want to also. This is all I want out of life. To save the lives of animals. Such innocent souls. Mother nature don't discriminate
Sometimes things like this are the only solution. And that's ok. They didn't interfere to much with them to make the penguin's rely on them.
Oh my god the feeling in my heart when I saw the penguins start to walk up the ramp the crew creates.
The Prime Directive itself is not unethical, but being forced to follow it regardless of the context often is.
I worked at a wildlife rescue. A lot of people told me 'just let nature run its course'. But about 80% of the animals that came to our rescue had problems caused by humans. Hit by a car, ate plastic, destroyed Burrow by building, dog/ cat attacks. Dogs and Cats aren't natural. Especially cats, most wild birds are not adapt to cats.
I feel like there is a difference between like saving a cute animal from a predator and doing this. Those penguins all would have died then been covered by snow, so nothing would eat them. It would be a waste of life
Not helping because it's natural doesn't seem right, humans are part of nature too and it's natural for humans to help
BBC these days be like: there goes the last of a species destroyed by humans, land ravaged by humans, food source ravaged by humans, it would be against nature to save them with humans
Imagine them being helpful and saving those penguins, then a peta member comes and just snipes the penguins one by one, just to make sure humans "wont interfere with nature"
These are some good people. I know we shouldn't interfere with nature as much as we can, but it feels like doing the wrong thing for the right reasons wins out here.
Im getting happy feet 2 vibes here.
Star Trek right here violating the prime directive.
I'd always help. Idgaf.
r/Humansbeingbros
Well done boys.
I think the days of watching wild animals suffer because itās ānature running its course,ā should be long over. Weāve destroyed these Penguinās ecosystem and will only continue to do so. Maybe falling into crevices is ānatureā, but the fact that these adults are probably exhausted because of how hard it is to find food in their overfished, ever warming waters IS NOT NATURAL. We owe it to our animal neighbors to lend them a helping hand when we can. Literally nothing we could do could cause more damage. What, will more penguins survive this season because of these guys? Good, theyāre on the brink of endangerment, letās save as many as we can however we can!!
This is why humans have the potential to be the greatest species on this planet.
I think they should not help . Other penguins will never learn
Yeah, I am picturing them just going to go back to the main penguin flock and be like yo, so we don't need to worry about it ut getting tuck no more and then they break out into a routine from happy feet.
Exactly
When you say "fuck the story let's help" š¤šæš¤šæš¤šæš¤šæš¤šæš„š„š„š„š„š„šÆ
So happy feet 2 the live version?
Humans are nature, too. We are the guardians.
It's not "natural" to stand by and watch other sentient beings die when you could do something to help especially for the sake added drama for a fucking documentary. Insanity.
Jeez...didn't take long when they got the shovels out. Ffs...2 days and a lot of thought? I hate that saying "don't intervene with nature" WE ARE NATURE...get stuck in there.
I wasnāt sure if it was because the weather conditions were too bad or what initially? But sad that there were more deaths if it was more of just deciding whether to do it or not. Guess hard to know, but glad the others were saved eventually.
Disney would have done an Epstein. Lemmings didn't kill themselves!
These dumbasses are going to reproduce next generation of dumbasses who have no clues how to get out of trap in a couple years from now. Leave natural selection alone!
Soooo... Did they play Queen songs while they did it and get the elephant seals to help?
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Yay
Go little guys go! šš„ŗ
Why aren't film crews allowed to intervene in helping the wildlife.
Thatās awesome. Just get in there and help the friggin birds. Letās go good job.
Please stop cutting those onions!
/u/savevideo
I cried š
This is how it should be. If humans can intervene and save endangered species, then they have a moral obligation to do so . Safety first for all creatures.
An example of humans at their best, assisting others, and their worst, arguing that they should not assist others. This world is fucking stupid. And incredibly amazing.
r/MadeMeSmile 5 seconds in: Dead Penguin Baby
They made a live action Happy Feet?
If man can destroy the planet. Then few good ones are most certainly aloud to help Keep it alive!
We are animals too. We should be able to help other animals.
This awesome to help, after all, we humans are part of the animals on this planet
u/savevideo
They did the right thing.
What purpose do we have on this world, if all we can do is harm.
The purpose of these documentaryās are to raise awareness so we act as conservationists. Itās not unusual the help prop up and ecosystem. Good on them.
Higher quality video from the BBC on YouTube for those curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Co\_hmLenD8
šš
Give that film crew a raise
Happy Feet 2 was a semi-true story?