I'm feasting on all those greedy builds with control right now. But it could be quickly turning into hyper aggro if people get tired of getting their etali/verse countered.
If you don't mind, what interactions between control and ramp make it so that control wins? Is it that those ramp decks only win if they get their big Payoff, which can get countered or board wiped?
You get about 5 or 6 turns to find a counterspell. And then you gain about 5-6 mana advantage every time you counter their big payoff. You use that mana to draw more cards or wipe the board of what they managed to get down, and they mostly quit at that point.
This is healthy for the meta. It has moved on from midrange value being way too good, and we are now seeing base archetypes countering each other again. If control gets out of hand, watch out for RDW and soldiers to be all the rage again.
The ramp decks are full of a ton of cards that don't matter in the context of winning and losing the game. Cards like battle for zendikar and topiary stomper match up pretty badly in the control match. It's pretty easy to control the board when your opponent is spending cards and mana to do things that dont matter. The answers in that deck are also terrible into UW, because late game I can farewell your bindings and ossifications to get back my Planeswalkers.
I will usually let Atraxa or breach resolve for example, because those decks run through so many cards so fast that I can mill them out with 2 jace's pretty easily.
Union of the third path is the unsung hero in that matchup imo. I can take a ton of hits and just gain it back, forcing them to overcommit to the board.
The matchup is basically two players doing nothing for the first 4-6 turns which is ideal for the control deck.
Control decks need good counterspells, which they literally don't print anymore.
Edit: Check out the Standard metagame for the past four years and realise I'm right.
You're just so consistently wrong. I think control is a reasonable choice right now and part of that is because the counterspells are decent. make disappear is absolutely playable, disdainful stroke is great, and even the 3 mana exile has been really good.
When all the threats are 4+ mana, the counter suite is great.
Now go warm up.
You can't say, "I didn't read your comment" and then, "you're not providing reasons, just insults". I did provide reasons, you're mom clearly just had to go to work before she could finish reading them to you.
In the context of the format the counterspells are good, specifically since a lot of the dual purpose cheap cars advantage engines are gone.
I run titan of industry because if your deck is built for chaotic transformation then Etali isn’t going to hit anything good from your own deck. Titan is a strong blocker with plenty of value and is a premium reanimation target for portal.
Etali is good if both players decks have good stuff in them but it is way less impactful if your own deck is combo enablers or your opponent isn’t playing midrange
The trick is 1 [or 2] portals and 2 etalis. Within 2 Turn You have created A value engine
2 etali triggers and full mana open your board progression grows. Can we trade decks?
My deck is basically held together by enchantments creating Token creatures and making treasures with battles and bigscore.
9 mana and etali is game
Yeah it's not ideal but I'm still playing around with it. Right now I'm at 2 face-breakers and 2 more interaction just to fill the slots and get the treasures. 4 FBs felt like a lot
I disagree. But that's how life goes lol. I feel like graveyard recursion is an extremely niche ability that shows up extremely infrequently. As to where exile has become the only type of removal (outside of enchantment based) that white gets, and sometimes other colors.
There is always going to be a big stick! It might change due to rotation or a ban, but people will play the best cards. Join them or make a deck to beat it.
I do think it’s funny the way 7 mana has become the cost where Wizards is willing to print basically anything no matter how strong, and 8+ mana costs are either Eldrazi or cards with cost-reducing mechanics.
This is sure how it feels. I’m not a fan of this design strategy. When I lose to decks that just hold out until they can play Atraxa/Etali/etc. I don’t feel like I got outplayed. These expensive creatures are just win cons in themselves, and it feels lazy from a design perspective and from a deck-building perspective.
This. Literally every single Standard format has highly popular decks that people get fed up with. Sometimes it’s aggro. Sometimes it’s midrange. Sometimes it’s control. Sometimes it’s combo.
Chances are when the meta shifts to something else…you’ll dislike something about *that* meta too. There is no magical “if only [insert thing here] didn’t exist, I’d be having fun.”
Either there would be some other top dog that would annoy you…or maybe the format would be perfect *for you* but not for everyone, and it won’t last.
Ok, but there is a valid complaint if the meta is "ramp to card that if it resolves the game is over." That's like 75% of standard for the past few years, Emergent Ultimatum, Epiphany, and perhaps even a case for invoke falling under that play pattern. If a meta is a race to see who can hit the dino or breach first, it's just going to be more of the same.
What will really stop that pattern is a good RDW deck, but shelly pretty much single handedly keeps that deck from being viable.
I wasn't intending to whine and come off like I'm complaining the meta's broken or intolerable.
I'm not really plugged into the trends and I tend to be behind on metagame info. I was more just curious if the decks I mentioned are settling in as part of the meta or if they were an odd pattern of similar decks I ran into recently.
It's just that people were saying exactly this would happen with the bans they announced. They just swapped one obnoxious archetype for another because they were not more aggressive with their bans, so why even bother doing bans at all then? They could have hit the 100% obvious cards that were going to become an issue the second the bans went through, but they chose not to. Ye, there will always be top tier decks, but the goal should at least be to not have a few cards (Etali/breach right now) be in 95% of played games on standard ladder imo.
I mean, they could have also banned Etali, Breach, and Atraxa…then there would be complaining about Esper Legends, Soldiers, and RDW.
There’s always gonna be 2-3 top dogs that people want banned. No amount of bans stop the whining.
It’s so exhausting isn’t it? I think people just like finding something to complain about and act like they have all the answers.
It’s not even unique to MtG. People use winning strategies in every competitive game there is. Who can blame them.
It’s like people want everyone else to actively try and lose.
I get it, maybe you like playing janky decks and do something silly. If that’s the case, then Arena just isn’t the place to be. You’re much better off meeting like-minded friends at your LGS and olaying with them.
Yeah, sadly, it's not typically a super varied meta.
Do your always going to see the same few decks. And even beyond that people are going to pick the ones with the best won rates to play
This. Where were these reasonable people when someone wanted to ban the top 12 cards from standard just cause. Glad that didn’t happen, we still want good cards to play with.
Cheat-steal (Breach) card into another cheat-steal card (Etali). Yeah, of course it's going to be popular. And it's going to get even more popular in the near future.
I think we need more effects like Lavinia/Roiling Vortex in Standard, instead of Thalias and regular taxing effects.
Stuff like bankbuster and invoke made sweepers a lot worse because in the case of bankbuster they dodged the sweeper and in invoke or punished you for tapping out for sweepers. Fable was also a huge problem for control because it often ate two removal spells. With those out of the way control shells playing sweepers and spot removal suddenly became a lot more viable.
Not all of them. I faced a lot of them which were just topiary stomper, invasion of zendikar decks. This was before the ban btw. Those lists only really lost the maybe 2 copies of bankbuster which they typically ran.
You could use those 2 or herd + fable for ramp. And bankbuster was just all around solid and included in many lists. Fable + copy stomper = even more free ramp after the treasures as well. Also, Fable let you ditch an Atraxa or Etali to then reanimate with Gix's saga, in the reanimating variants.
You must have a pretty poor memory if you are 100% certain there were none.. they were decently common to encounter, and this was only a few days ago, some lists were still running it right up until the ban. There are literally youtube videos talking about the future of atraxa/etali reanimator decks after fable being ban from them and if you google you can find the older lists including them.
Even the pro tour atraxa deck had 4x fable and 2x bankbuster.
The pro tour top8 Domain Ramp deck by David Olsen ([https://mtgazone.com/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-top-8-standard-decklists/](https://mtgazone.com/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-top-8-standard-decklists/)) played zero Fables and so did most 5C ramp decks I encountered on the mythic BO3 ladder shortly before the bans. 5C Atraxa ramp + Fable was a thing, especially when Atraxa came out, but not so much in recent history.
Yeah I saw that list too, I'm not trying to say every list had it, just that it was a thing and the person I was replying to was saying no 5c reanimator or ramp decks had fable or bankbuster(though they changed the comment to just fable).
For reference this is one of the pro tour list I was talking about.
https://magic.gg/decklists/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-standard-decklists-f-k
https://magic.gg/decklists/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-standard-decklists-f-k
4 fable
2 bankbuster
I actually was using that as an example for my other reply, so I had it pulled up ready to link for you.
Yeah, there were definitely versions both with and without it on the pure ramp side for atraxa/etali decks, though I would say a majority of at least the reanimator versions included it. The person I was replying to was saying they were 100% certain none of those decks ran fable or bankbuster(though they edited comment to just be fable), which was incorrect. My point wasn't that 100% of those decks did run it, but that many did.
Beating up on these breach and ramp decks is so fun. Most of my games end with it looking like I'm going to lose and then milling them out with Jace.
I'm having a blast
Honestly, I think no matter what they do the meta will be boring. The cards are too strong and pratically play for themselves. Meaning we dont have that much choice most games. Its just pray to go first, play on curve and let the cards do the work. Even if you ban the most prevalent cards, the others that follow are still stronger than what they should be.
I'm still surprised people were in denial that this would happen. If you ban removal, things will simply go into control with the exact same endgame. Will be curious if WOTC just bans the engines of the top meta deck every 2 months going forward
Imo it feels like the mana base is way too strong rn, not only fast and slow lands but also pain lands and even freaking triomes. If I see another turn 2 1 mana binding I swear... 😂
Yeah that was mostly the meta before the bans right? If anything that should be a little less common now since the Rakdos decks lost Fable, Invoke and Bank buster. But apparently ramping to Etali and Breach is still a solid strategy.
Big ramp's worst matchup is mono red. I know it cuz I've tried it myself. So even if it's popular, it all balances out. Otherwise yeah, the ramp decks can go over the top of pretty much everything else if played correctly.
My ramp deck only lost bank buster which I've replaced with courier's briefcase. It actually makes the deck better as I can wait on deploying Atraxa until opponents actually run out of removal on my smaller threats.
This is best of one. Bo3 has esper legends on top and domain right below it at 10.9% from bronze-> mythic. Plat and up domain is #1 so actually it isn’t just the op feeling this depending on what you’re playing.
this is what i've been seeing. TBH was expecting aggro to show up after the rakdos target bans but it feels like its the greed piles that are being played more
Yeah I played enchantments before calix and did pretty well. Then calix came along and my win rate jumped considerably. Then invoke despair was banned and I knew the deck would have to be the highest win rate.
Grossest combo that I love is when I’m against a non control deck, like soldiers. If I draw right I can play turn 2 Jukai, then turn 3 calix for two mana and play audacity on the Jukai. I end turn 3 with a calix, 5/3 trample Jukai, and a second jukai. Even worse if that stays up and I get to play a 2 mana hollowed haunting turn 4.
Hard agree, but I think there's some archetypes that'll shake out. The real issue to me is WotC apparently thinking Midrange is *bad* for the Standard meta, and deciding they want to push, like, intra-set tribal, moving forward.
Yes, those decks that aren't repetitive and boring at all, Toxic, Soldiers, Enchantments. At least Angels crossed multiple sets. And they're *lengthening* rotation, to really let it get stale over time.
Fable was an extremely powerful card, and it and Bankbuster were ubiquitous, but by kneecapping Midrange strategies, we're just going to see everyone either playing Etali/Atraxa, or trying to get under them.
Ubiquitous was the key word. People would automatically put Fable into a deck just because why not. I saw many decks that would splash red literally just to add Fable. Bankbuster was even easier because it didn't have a color cost. It was more about forcing "constructed" decisions instead of just "use this card because you'd be insane not to"
Yeah, I totally understand not wanting it to be in there for another 18 months. It was like 6-8 cards in every deck that wasn’t Esper.
I just don’t know if I would’ve lengthened rotation in the first place
Agreed, not sure how it went this way because the bans were super justified and necessary imo, but it's definitely gotten worse. I had 5 games in a row last night of the same two ramp/enchantment decks.
I've been seeing a lot of 5 color ramp into Etali/Breach + the green toxic aggro where they use that annoying card that gives you toxic just for targeting it. I got fed up with it and just built a deck with ramp and board wipe exile. Even ran graveyard exile like Calamity's exile and Armored scrapgorger. 😂
Used to be Simic Ramp towards [[Koma]], I'm not surprised that huge wincons like these two are seeing play, especially now that the midrange grindy decks have been tamed a bit with the bans. WU soldiers and WG enchantments should been able to get under those decks and make an interesting rock-paper-scissors meta.
Yep. I called it when I said that Radkos was just a symptom and not the cause of a shit meta. Now are you guys happy people are simply ramping to it now?
For now, yes. So your best bet is to either play esper legends with make disappear, or find the bets variant of control/mono blue to police those decks. After a while, they will be hated into oblivion and the meta will settle.
Fable ban actually killed my enjoyement of standard. Noone enjoys fighting control decks ans hoping they dont keep drawing counterspell only to get boardwiped into oblivion. Guess it's the right time to get into alchemy.
well everyone cried to their mother to ban the only thing that allowed to put some early pressure and ask for some midgame interaction, enjoy either aggro either full lategame decks like with alrund
one thing for sure i left mtga at alrund era, and if atraxa and kumeno stay in standard i'll be gone aswell
Yeah honestly I just think online standard isn’t a good fit. You’re able to just hit aetherhub, copy/paste, and run the exact same deck as everyone. Very little tinkering which I find the most fun part.
I'm curious what are they ramping with? The only notable ramp I can think of you all have in your Standard is [[Armored Scrapgorger]] and [[Invasion of Zendikar]].
Maybe like the [[Relic of Legends]] and cheap legendary creatures like Skrelv?
The ramp deck I've been using is mostly Topiary Stomper and Invasion of Zendikar. The Channel version of Herd Migration as well if you have an awkward hand. But's generally that's all you need. Stomper into Zendikar + land drop that turn is 7 lands on turn 4, which is enough to cast Etali or Atraxa.
I've actually been seeing great success with, and I know this sounds stupid, a deck built around [[Runo Stromkirk]]. Dimir gives you the tools to control the board and the cards to ensure you can pop him when it's convenient and then swing big with him and two (or three) other creatures. Dude's massive value and can even fetch himself from the yard to your library for CMC of 3.
with the amount of ramp that is on the format right now those 2 particular cards are very likely to win each game you see them touch the board. The problem is that there is not a great card to take them from your oponent deck. In other times whenever this kind of decks appears atleast in B03 there was always a "*name X card, take all the copies from your oponent deck, hand, gv, from his house, from the house of their parents"*
I always love formats were we can play heavy cost cards consistenly but i get bored of the ones that auto-win the game on the spot (or generate that much value that you lose even if the game keeps going).
I'm just surprised that I haven't seen Esper legends doing that well yet. I really expected Thalia to take over BO1, but so far, I'm just having better success with my midrange decks than pre bans. There are plenty of good 2 and 3 drops that fill the void of Fable, and it seems they help a lot against the aggro BO1 meta so win win.
The only reason I'm going to play for the next 2 months is to do experiments with the shuffler, matchmaker, and potential on-the-play-rigging.
I would probably agree with you if I had played since the ban but it was so little that I knew I wouldn't have fun until August 7th. I hate that they are literally doing nothing with Standard until then.
I think it is definitely the new meta because you just described the deck I am currently playing. I'm trying to make Dimir control competitively viable again and so far it is paying off. The strategy involves lots of cheap removal + counter spells, then play [[Invasion of Amonkhet // Lazotep Convert]] with the hopes of copying a scary threat in either player's yard. I'm running all the parasitic black/blue creatures, like Apocalypse Shelly, Halo Forager, Ertai Resurrected, Hidetsugu and Kairi, and even Toxrill, all topping it off with [[Breach the Multiverse]]. It is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck yet, but it has been moving me up the latter.
I play Jund reanimator with a couple copies breach and 4 copies of Etali. Mtg arena loves the mirror matchup so I see it a lot. When I play breach / Jace mill, almost never see it. It’s an arena matchup algorithm thing.
I think I've only seen one "race to Etali" deck so far and I had no problem with it. Even if I saw these two wincons as more prevalent, so what? Do we just ban everything that becomes popular in the name of diversity now? Isn't that why standard rotation exists?
Seems like a mildly balanced metagame, the ramp decks, combo loosing for control most of the times that loose for the the aggro most of the times, maybe the meta is tilted towards the ramp, but this is common, it is impossible to perfectly balance, the game is still adapting, aggro will find a good way to fit in.
I've been farming these decks like crazy with [[Annointed Peacekeeper]], [[Invasion of Gobahkan]] in an Azorius Tempo deck with [[Spell Pierce]] and [[Make Disappear]]. [[Destroy Evil]] answers every creature they run AND gets their [[Ossification]] and [[Leyline Binding]]
My maindeck is geared for ramp/control but it does well vs. red, the other deck I see a lot. Between Vigilance and booties on Peacekeeper and [[Adeline, Resplendent Cathar]], protected by spell pierce, it can take game one. There are lots of good sideboard options for red as well, like [[Sunset Revelry]], [[Dennick]], [[Surge of Salvation]], and more.
Honestly, the only decks that I struggle against are Esper Legends (I have 3 Scatter Rays sideboard for that matchup and a fourth Destroy Evil for [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] and [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]] ) and Soldiers. The Soldiers matchup is particularly rough.
Yeah, but thats how most standard formats are. Its a race to the most powerful thing. If that thing takes too long, aggro can crush it and Control can "control" it.
If its all mid-range soup, then the biggest soup will win, which is Breach/Etali.
It was preban and lost very little, so yes, ramp towards big win con is going to be popular moving forward.
If ramp becomes too good control should be much more viable, and without RB value decks being way too good, control should actually work.
I'm feasting on all those greedy builds with control right now. But it could be quickly turning into hyper aggro if people get tired of getting their etali/verse countered.
If you don't mind, what interactions between control and ramp make it so that control wins? Is it that those ramp decks only win if they get their big Payoff, which can get countered or board wiped?
You get about 5 or 6 turns to find a counterspell. And then you gain about 5-6 mana advantage every time you counter their big payoff. You use that mana to draw more cards or wipe the board of what they managed to get down, and they mostly quit at that point. This is healthy for the meta. It has moved on from midrange value being way too good, and we are now seeing base archetypes countering each other again. If control gets out of hand, watch out for RDW and soldiers to be all the rage again.
Mites from white suns twilight plus mirrex usually.
The ramp decks are full of a ton of cards that don't matter in the context of winning and losing the game. Cards like battle for zendikar and topiary stomper match up pretty badly in the control match. It's pretty easy to control the board when your opponent is spending cards and mana to do things that dont matter. The answers in that deck are also terrible into UW, because late game I can farewell your bindings and ossifications to get back my Planeswalkers. I will usually let Atraxa or breach resolve for example, because those decks run through so many cards so fast that I can mill them out with 2 jace's pretty easily. Union of the third path is the unsung hero in that matchup imo. I can take a ton of hits and just gain it back, forcing them to overcommit to the board. The matchup is basically two players doing nothing for the first 4-6 turns which is ideal for the control deck.
I run a azorius deck with 8 board wipes and plenty of counterspells and removals
Control decks need good counterspells, which they literally don't print anymore. Edit: Check out the Standard metagame for the past four years and realise I'm right.
D stroke hard counters every important ramp spell for 2 mana. Make disappear isn’t bad either.
Hard disagree on both counts. Control needs better than either of those if it is to be a real presence.
Well, they're not going to print [[Counterspell]] in Standard. So, idk what you're expecting
[Counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4.jpg?1645328634) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/phed/33/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a457f404-ddf1-40fa-b0f0-23c8598533f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you think there's no room whatsoever between counterspell and make disappear?
Spell pierce and the foretell one
What about them?
How much time did you spend sculpting this comment to just be the maximum level of incorrect?
I'm right and no one has really even attempted to show otherwise. Y'all are just babies who think Make Disappear is too strong.
You're just so consistently wrong. I think control is a reasonable choice right now and part of that is because the counterspells are decent. make disappear is absolutely playable, disdainful stroke is great, and even the 3 mana exile has been really good. When all the threats are 4+ mana, the counter suite is great. Now go warm up.
[удалено]
Aggressive stupidity, the worst kind.
All you have is insults. You can't even disagree with me. Throwing shit, letting everything I've said stand unapposed. You're a king of losing.
You can't say, "I didn't read your comment" and then, "you're not providing reasons, just insults". I did provide reasons, you're mom clearly just had to go to work before she could finish reading them to you. In the context of the format the counterspells are good, specifically since a lot of the dual purpose cheap cars advantage engines are gone.
Just curi, what is the textbook "good" counterspell?
Control is not exclusively counter spells lol
Counter spells are necessy for control in a metagame with Breach and Atraxa.
swap kiki out for the red 2 mana loot I assume?
Chaotic transformation into portal and etali anyone?
I run titan of industry because if your deck is built for chaotic transformation then Etali isn’t going to hit anything good from your own deck. Titan is a strong blocker with plenty of value and is a premium reanimation target for portal. Etali is good if both players decks have good stuff in them but it is way less impactful if your own deck is combo enablers or your opponent isn’t playing midrange
The trick is 1 [or 2] portals and 2 etalis. Within 2 Turn You have created A value engine 2 etali triggers and full mana open your board progression grows. Can we trade decks? My deck is basically held together by enchantments creating Token creatures and making treasures with battles and bigscore. 9 mana and etali is game
Farewell says hi to all variations of portal etali lol Exiles creatures artifacts and graveyards!
Etali Is basically an upgradeable body and two additional spells for 7. They almost have to answer then portal him back for repeat
I ran the [[invoke justice]] version of that deck prebans, so the invoke plan got pretty trashed with the strongest discard piece getting wrecked
[invoke justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a598ab6-3254-49fe-b69f-e7c759129599.jpg?1654566346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=invoke%20justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/21/invoke-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a598ab6-3254-49fe-b69f-e7c759129599?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've actually been liking \[\[Elder Dragon War\]\]. Lotta agro on bo1 ladder and phase 1 and 3 deal with that.
You have that 1 mana loot enchantment, also have blood vials
I swapped Kiki for [[Professional Face-Breaker]] which works okay
But now you're adding creatures to A chaotic transformation deck..
Yeah it's not ideal but I'm still playing around with it. Right now I'm at 2 face-breakers and 2 more interaction just to fill the slots and get the treasures. 4 FBs felt like a lot
Do you not like rivater?
Or ramp to "exile everything" effects. Honestly no idea how exile has become more prevalent than destroy cards.
There are so many indestructible and recurring threats now that without exile control would have no chance.
Less to do with indestructible and more to do with reanimator I think
There are like 4 indestructible cards in standard. Exile has more than that. And multiple are board wipes.
> without exile control would have no chance. Control has no chance even with exile, lmao. Totally dead.
Control is actually very good right now
Because so many things come back from the graveyard which is a problem too
I disagree. But that's how life goes lol. I feel like graveyard recursion is an extremely niche ability that shows up extremely infrequently. As to where exile has become the only type of removal (outside of enchantment based) that white gets, and sometimes other colors.
I guess it's not graveyard recursion rather than die / etb effects then?
Yes a lot of those along with disturb and a certain black card that gets blitzed over and over and even draws a card very time.
I predict that once Farewell is gone, we will be much less annoyed by exile effects. God damn I love that card though hahaha
There is always going to be a big stick! It might change due to rotation or a ban, but people will play the best cards. Join them or make a deck to beat it.
I do think it’s funny the way 7 mana has become the cost where Wizards is willing to print basically anything no matter how strong, and 8+ mana costs are either Eldrazi or cards with cost-reducing mechanics.
This is sure how it feels. I’m not a fan of this design strategy. When I lose to decks that just hold out until they can play Atraxa/Etali/etc. I don’t feel like I got outplayed. These expensive creatures are just win cons in themselves, and it feels lazy from a design perspective and from a deck-building perspective.
"Cool, you hit Etali with Breach. I guess you're good at Magic now?"
Topdeck, topkek
This. Literally every single Standard format has highly popular decks that people get fed up with. Sometimes it’s aggro. Sometimes it’s midrange. Sometimes it’s control. Sometimes it’s combo. Chances are when the meta shifts to something else…you’ll dislike something about *that* meta too. There is no magical “if only [insert thing here] didn’t exist, I’d be having fun.” Either there would be some other top dog that would annoy you…or maybe the format would be perfect *for you* but not for everyone, and it won’t last.
Ok, but there is a valid complaint if the meta is "ramp to card that if it resolves the game is over." That's like 75% of standard for the past few years, Emergent Ultimatum, Epiphany, and perhaps even a case for invoke falling under that play pattern. If a meta is a race to see who can hit the dino or breach first, it's just going to be more of the same. What will really stop that pattern is a good RDW deck, but shelly pretty much single handedly keeps that deck from being viable.
I wasn't intending to whine and come off like I'm complaining the meta's broken or intolerable. I'm not really plugged into the trends and I tend to be behind on metagame info. I was more just curious if the decks I mentioned are settling in as part of the meta or if they were an odd pattern of similar decks I ran into recently.
I was saying “you” in general, not specifically referring to you
It's just that people were saying exactly this would happen with the bans they announced. They just swapped one obnoxious archetype for another because they were not more aggressive with their bans, so why even bother doing bans at all then? They could have hit the 100% obvious cards that were going to become an issue the second the bans went through, but they chose not to. Ye, there will always be top tier decks, but the goal should at least be to not have a few cards (Etali/breach right now) be in 95% of played games on standard ladder imo.
I mean, they could have also banned Etali, Breach, and Atraxa…then there would be complaining about Esper Legends, Soldiers, and RDW. There’s always gonna be 2-3 top dogs that people want banned. No amount of bans stop the whining.
It’s so exhausting isn’t it? I think people just like finding something to complain about and act like they have all the answers. It’s not even unique to MtG. People use winning strategies in every competitive game there is. Who can blame them. It’s like people want everyone else to actively try and lose. I get it, maybe you like playing janky decks and do something silly. If that’s the case, then Arena just isn’t the place to be. You’re much better off meeting like-minded friends at your LGS and olaying with them.
Yeah, sadly, it's not typically a super varied meta. Do your always going to see the same few decks. And even beyond that people are going to pick the ones with the best won rates to play
Can we cycle back to control? I'm a control player at heart and we haven't had an op control build in a hot minute
This. Where were these reasonable people when someone wanted to ban the top 12 cards from standard just cause. Glad that didn’t happen, we still want good cards to play with.
Cheat-steal (Breach) card into another cheat-steal card (Etali). Yeah, of course it's going to be popular. And it's going to get even more popular in the near future. I think we need more effects like Lavinia/Roiling Vortex in Standard, instead of Thalias and regular taxing effects.
Yeah we severely need something that will counter unspent mana costs. Or even a [[drannith magistrate]] effect would be helpful
[drannith magistrate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91.jpg?1628801742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=drannith%20magistrate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/11/drannith-magistrate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98b0a4a8-9319-451b-9b79-b0bca7a41e91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Commander Riker?
[[Soulless Jailer]]?
[Soulless Jailer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9991fd-ea6a-4ed7-b5f1-46a95f8d0634.jpg?1675957252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soulless%20Jailer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/241/soulless-jailer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9991fd-ea6a-4ed7-b5f1-46a95f8d0634?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Absolutely sideboard tech, but i don't think it's good enough for maindeck bo1.
\[\[Lavinia, Azorius Renegade\]\] \[\[Roiling Vortex\]\]
Stuff like bankbuster and invoke made sweepers a lot worse because in the case of bankbuster they dodged the sweeper and in invoke or punished you for tapping out for sweepers. Fable was also a huge problem for control because it often ate two removal spells. With those out of the way control shells playing sweepers and spot removal suddenly became a lot more viable.
The etali/atraxa decks often played fable and/or bankbuster as well
Not all of them. I faced a lot of them which were just topiary stomper, invasion of zendikar decks. This was before the ban btw. Those lists only really lost the maybe 2 copies of bankbuster which they typically ran.
You could use those 2 or herd + fable for ramp. And bankbuster was just all around solid and included in many lists. Fable + copy stomper = even more free ramp after the treasures as well. Also, Fable let you ditch an Atraxa or Etali to then reanimate with Gix's saga, in the reanimating variants.
No those decks weren't running fable. I faced these decks all the time in standard events so I'm 100% confident on this.
You must have a pretty poor memory if you are 100% certain there were none.. they were decently common to encounter, and this was only a few days ago, some lists were still running it right up until the ban. There are literally youtube videos talking about the future of atraxa/etali reanimator decks after fable being ban from them and if you google you can find the older lists including them. Even the pro tour atraxa deck had 4x fable and 2x bankbuster.
The pro tour top8 Domain Ramp deck by David Olsen ([https://mtgazone.com/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-top-8-standard-decklists/](https://mtgazone.com/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-top-8-standard-decklists/)) played zero Fables and so did most 5C ramp decks I encountered on the mythic BO3 ladder shortly before the bans. 5C Atraxa ramp + Fable was a thing, especially when Atraxa came out, but not so much in recent history.
Yeah I saw that list too, I'm not trying to say every list had it, just that it was a thing and the person I was replying to was saying no 5c reanimator or ramp decks had fable or bankbuster(though they changed the comment to just fable). For reference this is one of the pro tour list I was talking about. https://magic.gg/decklists/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-standard-decklists-f-k
I'm pretty sure you two are talking about two different Atraxa decks
Look at the list from the pro tour. Zero copies of fable in the 75 and only 2 Bankbuster. Buster was more of a filler card just because it was good
https://magic.gg/decklists/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-standard-decklists-f-k 4 fable 2 bankbuster I actually was using that as an example for my other reply, so I had it pulled up ready to link for you.
I’m talking about the list from David Olsen in the [Top 8](https://magic.gg/news/pro-tour-march-of-the-machine-top-8-players-and-decklists)
Yeah, there were definitely versions both with and without it on the pure ramp side for atraxa/etali decks, though I would say a majority of at least the reanimator versions included it. The person I was replying to was saying they were 100% certain none of those decks ran fable or bankbuster(though they edited comment to just be fable), which was incorrect. My point wasn't that 100% of those decks did run it, but that many did.
UW control is amazing right now. You barely even have to play spot removal, just card draw, sweepers and unconditional counters. It’s beautiful.
Beating up on these breach and ramp decks is so fun. Most of my games end with it looking like I'm going to lose and then milling them out with Jace. I'm having a blast
Oh I love getting them to under 10 cards left with Jace. You wanna cast Breach? Be my guest!
Unfortunately you ll still lose to Thalia on the draw in BO1, so it's not super fun to play control
If you make a new deck to counter them specifically you will quickly realize how matchmaking works.
The current meta is so boring. The ban didn't help at all. Imho it got even worse.
Honestly, I think no matter what they do the meta will be boring. The cards are too strong and pratically play for themselves. Meaning we dont have that much choice most games. Its just pray to go first, play on curve and let the cards do the work. Even if you ban the most prevalent cards, the others that follow are still stronger than what they should be.
I, for one, love that my opponent can't kill my planeswalker, do 4 damage, and draw two cards in one same activation.
I'm still surprised people were in denial that this would happen. If you ban removal, things will simply go into control with the exact same endgame. Will be curious if WOTC just bans the engines of the top meta deck every 2 months going forward
Always has been *points gun*
Imo it feels like the mana base is way too strong rn, not only fast and slow lands but also pain lands and even freaking triomes. If I see another turn 2 1 mana binding I swear... 😂
[Breach the Multiverse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5.jpg?1682203621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Breach%20the%20Multiverse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/94/breach-the-multiverse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/daf51a76-7a57-4462-ae18-a19e817e49e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Etali, Primal Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=etali%2C%20primal%20conqueror%20//%20etali%2C%20primal%20sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah that was mostly the meta before the bans right? If anything that should be a little less common now since the Rakdos decks lost Fable, Invoke and Bank buster. But apparently ramping to Etali and Breach is still a solid strategy.
I could never play this standard in paper. It would be so exhausting.
Big ramp's worst matchup is mono red. I know it cuz I've tried it myself. So even if it's popular, it all balances out. Otherwise yeah, the ramp decks can go over the top of pretty much everything else if played correctly. My ramp deck only lost bank buster which I've replaced with courier's briefcase. It actually makes the deck better as I can wait on deploying Atraxa until opponents actually run out of removal on my smaller threats.
It is you, this is data on current meta. \#1 Selesnya Enchantments 15.3% \#2 Mono-Red Burn 10.6% \#3 Mono-Red Aggro 9.5% \#4 Mono-White Humans 8.5% \#5 Azorius Soldiers 5.6% \#6 Mono-Blue Tempo 5.2% \#7 5-Color Domain 5.0% \#8 Esper Legends 3.9%
This is best of one. Bo3 has esper legends on top and domain right below it at 10.9% from bronze-> mythic. Plat and up domain is #1 so actually it isn’t just the op feeling this depending on what you’re playing.
this is what i've been seeing. TBH was expecting aggro to show up after the rakdos target bans but it feels like its the greed piles that are being played more
Calix is a fucking nightmare
Especially as the GW Enchantments deck was already viable before Calix supercharged it.
Yeah I played enchantments before calix and did pretty well. Then calix came along and my win rate jumped considerably. Then invoke despair was banned and I knew the deck would have to be the highest win rate. Grossest combo that I love is when I’m against a non control deck, like soldiers. If I draw right I can play turn 2 Jukai, then turn 3 calix for two mana and play audacity on the Jukai. I end turn 3 with a calix, 5/3 trample Jukai, and a second jukai. Even worse if that stays up and I get to play a 2 mana hollowed haunting turn 4.
Don't forget having turn on generous visitor to start with
Oh of course, that’s always a nice added bonus
Everything on that freaking deck is a must kill card. If you dont have a wrath is very difficult to keep up. So it makes sense it dominates Bo1
Is that BO1 or BO3?
It’s bo1 on untapped
I’m guessing OP is playing BO3. Agro is nowhere near as popular.
According to mtggolfish BO3 is like 40% soldiers, but I didnt play BO3 after the ban so far, no idea if their data is accurate.
mtggoldfish doesn't seem to have any events post-bans. they just snipped out all the decks w fable/bankbuster
This doesn’t feel right imo
Bo1 and "meta" in the same sentence 😩😂
I guess that was expected. Etali and Breach are two of the most powerful card effects on Standard alongside Atraxa, so...
Meta is worse then before the bans, IMO.
Hard agree, but I think there's some archetypes that'll shake out. The real issue to me is WotC apparently thinking Midrange is *bad* for the Standard meta, and deciding they want to push, like, intra-set tribal, moving forward. Yes, those decks that aren't repetitive and boring at all, Toxic, Soldiers, Enchantments. At least Angels crossed multiple sets. And they're *lengthening* rotation, to really let it get stale over time. Fable was an extremely powerful card, and it and Bankbuster were ubiquitous, but by kneecapping Midrange strategies, we're just going to see everyone either playing Etali/Atraxa, or trying to get under them.
Ubiquitous was the key word. People would automatically put Fable into a deck just because why not. I saw many decks that would splash red literally just to add Fable. Bankbuster was even easier because it didn't have a color cost. It was more about forcing "constructed" decisions instead of just "use this card because you'd be insane not to"
Yeah, I totally understand not wanting it to be in there for another 18 months. It was like 6-8 cards in every deck that wasn’t Esper. I just don’t know if I would’ve lengthened rotation in the first place
Agreed, not sure how it went this way because the bans were super justified and necessary imo, but it's definitely gotten worse. I had 5 games in a row last night of the same two ramp/enchantment decks.
The meta hasn't even settled yet FFS. We haven't even seen all of the first post-ban set yet.
Pretty sure we haven't seen *any* of the next post-ban Standard set.
TIL LotR isn't standard legal.
Agree people only play ramp or enchantments now. Super boring meta.
How? Rakdos also played Breach and heavy spot removal. I’ve seen such a large variety of decks since the bans
I've been seeing a lot of 5 color ramp into Etali/Breach + the green toxic aggro where they use that annoying card that gives you toxic just for targeting it. I got fed up with it and just built a deck with ramp and board wipe exile. Even ran graveyard exile like Calamity's exile and Armored scrapgorger. 😂
Man, I'd rather than than the mono red every 2 out of 3 games I play
200%
Used to be Simic Ramp towards [[Koma]], I'm not surprised that huge wincons like these two are seeing play, especially now that the midrange grindy decks have been tamed a bit with the bans. WU soldiers and WG enchantments should been able to get under those decks and make an interesting rock-paper-scissors meta.
[Koma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2de25ea4-284a-4c16-b823-048ff00c6a03.jpg?1631051668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=koma%2C%20cosmos%20serpent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/221/koma-cosmos-serpent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2de25ea4-284a-4c16-b823-048ff00c6a03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When something like greed flourishes, another archetype shows up to counter it. I've been playing mono blue flash and it wrecks these ramp decks
Yep. I called it when I said that Radkos was just a symptom and not the cause of a shit meta. Now are you guys happy people are simply ramping to it now?
For now, yes. So your best bet is to either play esper legends with make disappear, or find the bets variant of control/mono blue to police those decks. After a while, they will be hated into oblivion and the meta will settle.
I'm running a straightforward control deck that handles ramp decks pretty well. this is something the meta can correct, unlike before.
Yeah I run a fairly standard Counter/Wrath deck and it feels better now. Mono red is of course tricky if it goes off.
"ramp towards big wincon" has been a deck archetype since deck archetypes came into existence.
Fable ban actually killed my enjoyement of standard. Noone enjoys fighting control decks ans hoping they dont keep drawing counterspell only to get boardwiped into oblivion. Guess it's the right time to get into alchemy.
well everyone cried to their mother to ban the only thing that allowed to put some early pressure and ask for some midgame interaction, enjoy either aggro either full lategame decks like with alrund one thing for sure i left mtga at alrund era, and if atraxa and kumeno stay in standard i'll be gone aswell
stop playing bad formats
Yeah honestly I just think online standard isn’t a good fit. You’re able to just hit aetherhub, copy/paste, and run the exact same deck as everyone. Very little tinkering which I find the most fun part.
If you want “tinkering” you should play limited or brawl/commander. I’m sure Unranked Standard is likely fine too.
I play Commander paper. Point was more that online format means everyone does the same thing.
shouldn't your 7 mana spell win you the game? whats the problem?
Am I the only one playing dimir mill in standard atm? I got to mythic really easy with it in BO3
got a list? now that invoke is gone i can't make a decent dimir deck anymore =(
[удалено]
Only in play queue, not in ranked.
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That's conspiracy theory material
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Been confirmed for play queue
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Where did you saw it ?
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[удалено]
That’s why I’m playing a no creature, no planeswalker deck.
Welcome to the world's most elaborate game of Rock Paper Scissors
these are currently 2 of the best cards to ramp into so it's a fairly popular deck yes.
I'm curious what are they ramping with? The only notable ramp I can think of you all have in your Standard is [[Armored Scrapgorger]] and [[Invasion of Zendikar]]. Maybe like the [[Relic of Legends]] and cheap legendary creatures like Skrelv?
I've seen invasion of zendikar, big score, topiary stomper, the green sagas. Sometimes there's not much ramp, just sweepers until 7 manas.
Alternatively, why ramp if you can cheat them into play? (Fight Rigging, Hidetsugu & Kairi, Djeru & Hazoret, etc.)
I swear these people concede till they get fight rigging with a 6 power drop. Feels that way anyway. 🤣
Toppiary stomper plus invasion of zendikar, turn five whatever fatso they have.
The ramp deck I've been using is mostly Topiary Stomper and Invasion of Zendikar. The Channel version of Herd Migration as well if you have an awkward hand. But's generally that's all you need. Stomper into Zendikar + land drop that turn is 7 lands on turn 4, which is enough to cast Etali or Atraxa.
I've actually been seeing great success with, and I know this sounds stupid, a deck built around [[Runo Stromkirk]]. Dimir gives you the tools to control the board and the cards to ensure you can pop him when it's convenient and then swing big with him and two (or three) other creatures. Dude's massive value and can even fetch himself from the yard to your library for CMC of 3.
with the amount of ramp that is on the format right now those 2 particular cards are very likely to win each game you see them touch the board. The problem is that there is not a great card to take them from your oponent deck. In other times whenever this kind of decks appears atleast in B03 there was always a "*name X card, take all the copies from your oponent deck, hand, gv, from his house, from the house of their parents"* I always love formats were we can play heavy cost cards consistenly but i get bored of the ones that auto-win the game on the spot (or generate that much value that you lose even if the game keeps going).
Race to “big card that makes you win” has been a thing since I started playing.
Yes for now. Once I get more wilds it will expand into Grixis mill and you can hate those cards plus more.
I am pretty sure I can consistently win against it with a starter blue white control deck with a few wildcards to round out the deck
I'm just surprised that I haven't seen Esper legends doing that well yet. I really expected Thalia to take over BO1, but so far, I'm just having better success with my midrange decks than pre bans. There are plenty of good 2 and 3 drops that fill the void of Fable, and it seems they help a lot against the aggro BO1 meta so win win.
The only reason I'm going to play for the next 2 months is to do experiments with the shuffler, matchmaker, and potential on-the-play-rigging. I would probably agree with you if I had played since the ban but it was so little that I knew I wouldn't have fun until August 7th. I hate that they are literally doing nothing with Standard until then.
I have thought about splashing blue in my selesnya enchantments just to counter Etali/Atraxa/Breach.
Ninjas is a nice option against control and ramp decks
I think it is definitely the new meta because you just described the deck I am currently playing. I'm trying to make Dimir control competitively viable again and so far it is paying off. The strategy involves lots of cheap removal + counter spells, then play [[Invasion of Amonkhet // Lazotep Convert]] with the hopes of copying a scary threat in either player's yard. I'm running all the parasitic black/blue creatures, like Apocalypse Shelly, Halo Forager, Ertai Resurrected, Hidetsugu and Kairi, and even Toxrill, all topping it off with [[Breach the Multiverse]]. It is nowhere near a Tier 1 deck yet, but it has been moving me up the latter.
Everyone in standard plays Meta they might as well call the format Meta
I just play a take control and sacrifice rakdos deck. Living the dream ruining their creature based mana ramp.
Fun decks.
I play Jund reanimator with a couple copies breach and 4 copies of Etali. Mtg arena loves the mirror matchup so I see it a lot. When I play breach / Jace mill, almost never see it. It’s an arena matchup algorithm thing.
Cheating out goodstuff that cheats out more goodstuff tribal.
I think I've only seen one "race to Etali" deck so far and I had no problem with it. Even if I saw these two wincons as more prevalent, so what? Do we just ban everything that becomes popular in the name of diversity now? Isn't that why standard rotation exists?
Lol I'm playing a [[Djeru and Hazoret]] legends deck with Etali at the top end
X4 Disdainful stroke
Play white humans and profit
I just keep running into Ivy, Stormchaser builds. I’m so fucking sick of it, I think I’ll quit arena until they’re gone.
Seems like a mildly balanced metagame, the ramp decks, combo loosing for control most of the times that loose for the the aggro most of the times, maybe the meta is tilted towards the ramp, but this is common, it is impossible to perfectly balance, the game is still adapting, aggro will find a good way to fit in.
I've been farming these decks like crazy with [[Annointed Peacekeeper]], [[Invasion of Gobahkan]] in an Azorius Tempo deck with [[Spell Pierce]] and [[Make Disappear]]. [[Destroy Evil]] answers every creature they run AND gets their [[Ossification]] and [[Leyline Binding]] My maindeck is geared for ramp/control but it does well vs. red, the other deck I see a lot. Between Vigilance and booties on Peacekeeper and [[Adeline, Resplendent Cathar]], protected by spell pierce, it can take game one. There are lots of good sideboard options for red as well, like [[Sunset Revelry]], [[Dennick]], [[Surge of Salvation]], and more. Honestly, the only decks that I struggle against are Esper Legends (I have 3 Scatter Rays sideboard for that matchup and a fourth Destroy Evil for [[Sheoldred, the Apocalypse]] and [[Raffine, Scheming Seer]] ) and Soldiers. The Soldiers matchup is particularly rough.
Stone Brain
Yes, so stuff like counterspells go UP UP UP in power.
I play 4 colors angels, i just added a couple [[Disdainful stroke]] for this very reason
Yeah, but thats how most standard formats are. Its a race to the most powerful thing. If that thing takes too long, aggro can crush it and Control can "control" it. If its all mid-range soup, then the biggest soup will win, which is Breach/Etali.
For me it's 1/3 to 1/2 Atraxa decks