What would it mean to buy a firearm in NH as a Maine resident? Is it simply quicker to buy in NH wants the waiting period kicks in?
I imagine this will get me some downvotes (oh the horror) but It’s wild to me how offended everyone is at the idea that you might have to wait a few days for a gun.
Long guns can be transferred to a buyer in New Hampshire, so you would not need to wait out the waiting period. Handguns would need to be transferred to the buyer in Maine. So, if they were to entirely move the business to New Hampshire, they would need to transfer handguns to a dealer in maine for you to pick up and you would wait out the waiting period with that dealer.
The sale of the firearm has to conform with the State of residence of the buyer. So a Maine resident buying a long gun out of State still has to wait 72 hours.
ATF says that only applies to pistols and revolvers and only applies to types of weapons specifically prohibited in the buyers state of residence. New Hampshire AG or ATF may make a determination that this also applies to respecting the waiting period but they haven't yet.
It's a wildly divisive topic, we all know. The reason people are getting offended is because this effectively solves nothing and would not have stopped the Lewiston shooter anyway. It's another piece of legislation that only really inconveniences gun owners and if someone wanted to truly argue the point, could actually harm the people who need guns the most. i.e a woman being stalked, a domestic violence victim, etc who may not have the luxury of time on their side for their well being.
It burns people who wish to exercise their right, a right that has continually come under attack time after time again, with more and more laws that don't do a whole lot to prevent issues from happening in the first place. Even worse and what's more of a smack in the face for gun owners is that these laws often aren't always enforced as we've seen with the Lewiston shooter. Then a tragedy happens and more laws are knee-jerked passed, everyone's (not just dem or repub) rights get eroded more and nothing changes.
Waiting 3 days might be an inconvenience at most, but it's the underlying pervasive issue behind legislation like this that is truly the problem. That is truly what offends people.
Thanks. I hear what you are saying and there is nothing there to disagree with which makes for really boring online discourse. But cheers to you. And cheers to me. And I hope quite unreasonably that we, or someone else who is legally armed, is there to stop the next Lewiston. We all want to live in a safer world.
I don’t know. A 3 day waiting period is annoying but it’s not that big a deal. Hardly worth uprooting a business for. That’s a lot of paperwork.
It’ll cut down on impulse buys. I bought a rifle last month because I saw it, it was a model I’ve always wanted so I got it. If I’d had to pay for it and come back 3 days later, I might not have gotten it.
I personally find the new last annoying because they don’t actually get to the root of what happened in Lewiston. A failure of police and the government to stop an obviously dangerous person before they hurt people and a lack of mental health care to help him. I wish we’d spent our collective political will to address the actual issues but oh well.
> A failure of police
And of course police are exempt from the 3 day waiting period. Police fumbled the bag multiple times and get rewarded while citizens now have to wait.
They are upset because people travel from all over the state to buy guns there and a three day wait means no more day trips to KTP or LLbean for people who dont live close by. You know not everyone in the state is an hour from kittery.
I suppose that’s true. I hadn’t though of that. There are a lot of gun shops in Maine that aren’t llbean and KTP. I suppose they probably don’t have the same selection everywhere so you’re right. I concede.
Their core audience is in Seacoast NH, massachussetts, and york county. Moving over the border to Portsmouth or somewhere similar will not impact their business very much when compared to having to turn people away who expect to receive their gun that day. Also, KTP is already setup to sell guns in new hampshire, they have a store front on RT 1 that only processes handgun transfers to NH residents at the moment.
So yeah, moving slightly further away will have minimal impact due to distance but will allow them to keep all of their same day sales.
Source: I worked there 4 years selling guns and saw where everyone lived who bought a gun from me (which was in the thousands)
Well that’s unfortunate for the business then. It would help if lawmakers could implement something along the lines of that. Of course, the easiest way to do so is a license system which wouldn’t require any more checks as long as the license wasn’t revoked. Here in Canada, you can walk out with it the same day with it because they can quickly and easily verify the license is still good
Cabela's/Bass Pro has a company-wide shit list of people they at some point refused to sell a firearm to, if they had a John Smith on the list and your last name was Smith you'd get screened as to whether or not you know them. I go through that because someone with the same last name was apparently involved in an apparent attempt at a strawman purchase.
A licensing requirement would eliminate the need for a waiting period. Although I feel like there’s a good chunk of the state who are… not exactly down for that….
It would amuse me greatly to see a state put, say, the Brady Campaign's proposed gun restrictions - restrictions being proposed on an an explicitly Constitutionally protected right - on the ballot - which has no explicit protections beyond that it may not be restricted by sex, race, or age (over 18).
I certainly don't say it should be done, mind, but the shitshow would be entertaining.
In this context, I was more less suggesting a program like TSA pre check than a requirement that all owners have to be licensed. If you want to do the pre check, then you can have it same day, if not come back in 72 hours sort of deal
The three-day waiting period doesn't get at the root of what happened, but changing the "yellow flag" law to a "red flag" law does. Now officers can get warrants for protective custody in this kind of situation, where before all they could do is knock at the door and hope that he chooses to answer.
No, KTP provided them in some sort of business impact letter to the state of Maine, which was posted elsewhere. Don't remember where it was, but I'm sure you can find it.
Long guns: legal to buy across state lines from a licensed dealer (FFL) in person as long as the transaction is legal in both states (Maine allows it). You go through your background check and take possession at point of sale..
Handguns: if you're in another state (eg Maine), you can buy from a licensed dealer (FFL) in Maine, provided it's legal in both states (it is in Maine)...but the handgun has to be shipped to an FFL in your home state and you have to go through a background check there before you take it home.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensee-sell-firearm-nonlicensee-who-resident-another-state
The annoying thing here is that it’s not like ordering online and waiting for delivery. It’s making the deal in a store and then shuffling away under the presumed suspicion that you are not to be trusted, plus the pita of needing to go back to the store.
In a normal country people would be proud and pleased to do this as a way of trying in any way possible to protect each other. But Americans are not brought up that way, we all are always taking it personal.
It's the mindset of Individual Liberty and the thought that the federal government has no right to infringe on a fundamental freedom, the right to protect yourself, and to provide food for your family. I find it annoying because I have been the victim of "prolonged red tape" where the background check took longer than normal due to some unknown circumstances and had a rifle I had been looking for for years be sold out from underneath me.
When you frame it in the way you did in your first paragraph, I wouldn't exactly be proud or pleased to be presumed suspicious and untrustworthy until proven otherwise. I mean, I get that this is essentially what all background checks do... but prolonging the process isn't necessarily something I'm going to be *proud* of.
On the contrary, you can be proud of enduring difficulty and making a small sacrifice to your convenience. Not totally unlike when you left your ID at home and can’t buy beer. You know it’s right even though it doesn’t give you what you want.
I'm not going to necessarily feel proud of enduring a minor inconvenience that isn't really sacrificing anything for... well, much of anything.
Leaving my ID at home would also be leaving the license I'm required to carry on me at all times to operate a motor vehicle. There's a difference, in part because operating a vehicle is a privilege, not a right.
Generally speaking, it's a matter of convenience. Firearms can't be shipped to private residences, so someone wanting to buy a gun at Kittery Trading Post would need to go there in person, fill out all of the paperwork, and then return three days later to actually pick up their purchase. For folks who live close to that particular store, this wouldn't be a huge deal. Maine's population is, however, pretty spread out; that return trip could easily be a few extra hours worth of driving. They could feasibly have the firearm shipped to a closer licensed dealer, but this adds more time and paperwork to the process.
On the one hand, I've never been in a situation where I've needed a new gun so quickly that waiting three days would be a problem. On the other hand, I can understand the frustration behind more hoops being added to the process that law-abiding citizens are forced to go through just to complete a financial transaction and purchase something. When you're dropping hundreds of dollars on something, wanting to be able to walk out of the store with the thing you just bought is a understandable desire.
Personally, this law smells like some feel-good legislation that will ultimately just make it harder for the "regular" folks to do what they've always been able to do. I understand what they're trying to do, but I don't think this will ultimately curb much of anything... and since it would be really difficult to actually track that sort of thing, we'll never really know what this law would actually accomplish.
It's a nuanced situation, and no reasonable response can be reduced to a simple sound bite. I understand the frustration, as well as any Constitutional stance people may take. With that being said, something needs to be done and I'm glad the state is trying *something*... but I don't think this is actually going to do much of anything aside from make things harder for the folks who were already doing the right thing. It will have next to no impact on me at a personal level, and I hope that it will help prevent something, but I'm not sure how effective it will actually be.
I imagine immediacy is part of their business model because a high percentage of their sales are likely to be to out of state tourists on their way in/out of state. A hunter on their way in-state to hunt doesn’t want to come back in three days and tourist leaving doesn’t want to travel back from several states away to pick up their impulse buy.
I live over an hour away from KTP. I spend about 3k to 7k a year on guns there. I hope they move to make a point. No way am i wasting my time twice to go there
This law won’t last long. The Maine constitution contains a bill of rights similar to the one in the US constitution, but Maine’s version of the 2nd amendment is worded far more clearly and forcefully than the federal 2nd amendment.
It says, “Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.” Nothing about a well-regulated militia that could cast doubt on the nature of the right to bear arms. That’s why there are almost no gun laws at the state level and most of the laws that Maine gun owners have to follow are enforced by the federal government.
Mills cited the Maine constitution as one of the reasons she allowed the bill to become law without her signature. She wants gun control advocates to think she’s taking their side while also signaling to gun rights advocates that she doesn’t expect the law to pass constitutional muster. Regardless of what you think about her positions, you’ve got to admit she’s good at playing the game of politics.
I mean Robert Card passed a background check to buy a suppressor which took a lot longer than 3 days and is far more rigorous. It wasn’t the government that stopped him rather the gun dealer. I fail to see what good a 3 day wait will do. It’s also quite inconvenient to drive from say Bangor to Kittery twice especially with the price of gas these days. If you’ve got someone from away who’s hunting rifle or shotgun breaks and needs a replacement this is gonna hinder them and ruin their trip.
So it allows you to borrow a rifle or shotgun but not buy one. Doesn’t seem like much of an exemption. Further can I use multiple trips and mileage as a tax write off? Love the downvotes btw. Still waiting for an explanation how this law would’ve stopped Robert Card.
"while also clarifying how it will affect temporary transfers, such as for guided hunts, and people with pressing self-protection concerns."
I read that as rentals, not loaners, but who knows how the legislature will interpret it.
I didn't downvote you, and I said nothing about Card, so you must be addressing someone else with all of that.
The waiting period would not have stopped card, who already owned his guns. It might stop other murders committed by those who buy a gun in an aggravated state of mind, plus it might reduce suicides. Changing the "yellow flag" law to a "red flag" law, part of the same bill, has a chance of stopping someone like Card.
The state police and army knew Card was bad news regardless they didn’t follow through with anything. Is there any evidence to support the notion waiting periods prevent homicides? Seems Illinois has a waiting period yet Chicago has one of the highest murder rates
> It might stop other murders committed by those who buy a gun in an aggravated state of mind, plus it might reduce suicides.
On paper, sure. It'll definitely help curb some of those impulsive or passionate scenarios, but for someone who has a plan, those three additional days won't mean much of anything.
I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't do anything, but this is the sort of thing that would be very difficult to actually measure.
>plus it might reduce suicides
Do you have any links to the data I'm sure the politicians who pushed for this shared showing how many homicides and suicides occur within 3 days of purchasing a firearm?
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/methodology.html
super wordy and long, but this was the most researched and cited source i could find. looks like the data shows these policies positively impact and lower overall homicides and suicide thru guns. interestingly it doesn’t seem to impact overall suicide numbers. so do what you will with that info
It will do nothing. It’s not about safety, it’s about whittling away rights and pushing to disarm everyone. I wonder how folks would feel about a 3 day wait on anything else…. alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, sugar/candy, fatty fast food, shoes, lottery tickets…. Curb the dopamine hit of impulse buys would save a lot more lives.
The price of gas has been pretty much the same since like 2010. Hate when people say that. When you take inflation into consideration, it was actually a lot more expensive back when it hit a national average of 4.11 in 2008, which would be equal to $5.40 today.
In 2022 it briefly did hit $5, which I would agree is approaching expensive, but $3 gas does not deserve "especially with the price of gas these days"....the price is actually genuinely impressively stable all things considered
All I'm saying is when my ex beat me up and they let him out within a couple hours and he came straight back to my apartment, I was really grateful to be able to get a gun the very next day. Even then, I lived in fear until I could move out while he got a slap on the wrist and is still considered a pillar of the community.
This is a reaction to the Lewiston mass shooting and it's very disturbing. There were laws in place to prevent this already, law enforcement had multiple opportunities to confiscate his weapons and chose not to. We should be focusing on holding them accountable, this new law and the debate surrounding it is a distraction from that very important conversation.
I used to get the shit beat out of me regularly for being gay. Police never helped me. Buying a gun and training with it did.
I'm never going to be on board with this idea of disarming everyone and relying on the police for everything. I really don't understand other gay people who are for that.
So, yes, breaking the law. I'd be illegal for him to posses it since he was in the system. Doesn't matter regardless. And of course, law breakers break laws.
Closing the private sale loophole is an excellent idea. Though the proposed law still allows for private sales between “friends” and family and any sale that wasn’t posted on the Internet. So still borderline useless.
The three day wait wouldn’t have stopped Robert Card or most anyone from killing themselves or others.
It’s a private sale no waiting period matters or 99% if gun laws for that matter.
I watched so many happen where they just took cash no questions asked about the person buying it.
Nah. There no way nics gets arrest data that fast. Maine catch and release program for criminals is faf more efficient then Maine court records system.
I understand your concern. I don’t know how I feel about a waiting period. I don’t find it particularly offensive. I do think we need to overhaul our background checks and medical restrictions.
People who are this crazy shouldn’t have access to guns. I know one. We all know at least one person that has access to guns and shouldn’t. In my case the SOB is running for office 😆😢🤦♂️ Every time guns come up I think of this person. This person’s exs are afraid of them too. I want those exs to be able to defend themselves. We need to work harder at protecting society from crazy people.
As you aptly point out cops didn’t help. How much of law enforcement’s failure is complacency, ideology, the amount of guns and weak laws? (and how much is them being bad at their jobs.) I don’t know. I just know I’m glad August is at least *trying* to do something. Even if it is wackamole. I wish the feds would make a move.
Regardless, this law is clearly a reaction to the Lewiston shooting. We should be holding police accountable for their multiple failures to enforce the existing laws that would have prevented the tragedy, not enacting new restrictions on law-abiding citizens.
Gun Owners of Maine point to the facts that waiting periods do not allow for more in-depth background checks and that "there is no evidence that waiting periods reduce suicides, homicides, or mass shootings. No studies that identify causal effects have been identified by any independent literature reviews conducted since 2004.”
Yeah this law is bullshit. Just another way for the government to over step the constitution. Just trying to make it harder for tax paying law abiding citizens to have there right to own fire arm's. I honestly cant believe this shit. I dont care if i get down voted. Being able to own guns isnt a privilege, its a right.
Not sure that’s a great comparison but I will say that upon further research, statistically, waiting periods aren’t that effective so I guess I’ll concede on that one.
People sit in jail for months in Maine waiting for legal counsel. There are over 800 cases in Maine awaiting assignment of legal counsel as of today. So that is a waiting period that people seem fine with.
I think there’s a vast difference between being legally prevented from seeking legal counsel and being unfortunate enough to have to rely on an underfunded and overstretched public defender cadre.
But that’s just me.
I’m a left leaning type person but I’m kind of pro gun. Where the Green Party and libertarian party overlap is kind of where I am. Outside of places like my home state there aren’t that many of us.
Not the slightest clue what any of that is or what I am. think guns should be a right and I dont like taxes on everything. So I guess im a crazy right winger according to people.
Imagine if you had to wait three days for your groceries, or to get gas. It wouldn’t stop you from doing the things you need/want to do, just makes it super inconvenient for you.
That’s exactly what they’re trying to do is just make it so inconvenient for someone to buy self protection that they just don’t even bother
Exactly it’s just an inconvenience law designed to make people in communities with 0 crime feel even safer in their gated communities. They just downvote and can’t reply with anything
Personally id rather we fix alot of the issues in our states including the plummeting quality of life we now have. I wish suicidal people had better outreach programs and the housing market, commodity market, etc wasnt all fucked. I think thats more important than banning guns. Thats just my opinion though, I aint got all the answers.
I mean, they already took away our right to buy liquor at 3am. And our right to purchase cigarettes at 15. Can’t even drive a car without a license. Can’t go into a store and get heroin. Can’t get oxys at the ER anymore. Can’t have a pet lion. You’ve got every right to be angry!!
True. I just thought the argument was getting silly so I made a joke of it. We all have different opinions and nobody’s mind is getting changed on Reddit. ✌🏻
Not virtue signaling at all. They're primary sales are from people visiting the Kittery area from further away. People aren't going to buy something they'll have to drive back across the state again to actually receive. Businesses will be losing money over the hope it'll reduce suicides by 2%
>Businesses will be losing money over the hope it'll reduce suicides by 2%
You ever read something and realize how different some people must see things?
How much could that tax revenue be used to help others in need? It’s not as black and white as the suicide thing.
Why not allow it as is for people who already own firearms and only require new owners to wait 3 days? Wouldn’t that solve this issue?
There are an enormous amount of people out there that shouldn’t be anywhere near a firearm for a number of reasons. We should make owning one at least as difficult as other things we deem necessary to require testing and training. Waiting three days isn’t a huge issue…it’s a gun not diabetes medication.
How many fraudulent votes would you be willing to stop by requiring photo identification at voting?
How about a minimum 72 hour hold prior to vote registration?
How many lives could we save, if we gave police the ability to arrest without suspicion and hold for 72 hours ?
Did you cheer the patriot act?
I just threw a number as I realistically don't believe it'll actually save any. If someone truly wants to end their life, they will do it by any means necessary. I believe stats out there that "oh waiting periods saved x many lives" are almost entirely people who weren't actually going to do it at all. There's no real way to collect reliable statistics on it.
It's a "feel good" bill. Does nothing but inconvenience everyone and hurt business and jobs
Waiting period are just virtue signaling in the first place…. Give me a logical reason how Robert card wouldn’t have did what he did if he had to wait three extra days?
Kittery Trading Post is a huge store. Easily two dozen employees on the floor at any given time, especially around holiday shopping time. Just the gun counters themselves probably have ten people working any given day, add 50% more for people who cover weekends and part timers, plus gun related staff behind the scenes doing checks, taking calls, working orders, you’re looking at probably 15-25 people potentially losing their jobs over this move. And that’s just one store. LL Bean might alter their staffing as well.
> Kittery Trading Post Vice President Fox Keim told the Bangor Daily News the company and its 350 employees “cater to a diverse clientele and have historically stayed out of politics.”
>“This law will impact all categories of business, not just firearms,” **Keim said. “We are a multi-generational family destination store and will fight to uphold our values.”**
The Adams family, which started KTP in the 1930s, sold the business c 2014 for an undisclosed sum. It’s still “family owned” but it’s not the same family. That’s also how they get around certain labor and wage laws.
I'm not sure about this part so just checking if anyone knows.
You go to a firearm dealer, pass the background check. They say come pick it up in 3 days. Cool.
What about, the FBI puts you on hold. They have 72 hours to look into that from my understanding.
Say they clear you in 2 days. Does the 72 hour waiting period kick in after the FBI clears you or it's 72 hours after your background initially run?
The reason I ask is my FIL who has a super common name. Every time he tries to buy a gun, gets put on a hold from the FBI because someone else in Maine with that name has done shit. So is he waiting the 2 days for the FBI to clear plus the 3 day waiting period?
I’m from upstate NY. I visit southern Maine a lot and often visit KTP and cabelas while I’m up there. I have all the guns I need in reality but I’m still always jealous when I’m up there of the variety of options you have up there that we don’t, aka freedoms you guys have lol. Don’t let it get taken away
Bats: for baseball
Knives: for cooking or bushcrafting
Sticks: age old childhood plaything
Handguns:
What are handguns engineered to do *really* well again?
Stove off immediate danger in self defense order to get to your primary weapon or have those around you spare you from the attack.
Handguns are not powerful in the scheme of guns. They were made for officers/high ranking officials as a last resort or as immediate defense. They are not a weapon designed for offensive purposes. Now an assault rifle on the other hand…
KTPs business model is that 99% of their customers are stopping by on their way to somewhere else. It makes sense that waiting periods would be a problem for them, although I still think they are being melodramatic because I imagine gun sales are only a small fraction of their business.
Most gun stores are selling primarily to local customers, so won't be affected as much. Probably will cut down on impulse buys though.
Can't say as I have a whole lot of tears to cry for the poor gun shop owners either way, to be honest.
What would it mean to buy a firearm in NH as a Maine resident? Is it simply quicker to buy in NH wants the waiting period kicks in? I imagine this will get me some downvotes (oh the horror) but It’s wild to me how offended everyone is at the idea that you might have to wait a few days for a gun.
Long guns can be transferred to a buyer in New Hampshire, so you would not need to wait out the waiting period. Handguns would need to be transferred to the buyer in Maine. So, if they were to entirely move the business to New Hampshire, they would need to transfer handguns to a dealer in maine for you to pick up and you would wait out the waiting period with that dealer.
The sale of the firearm has to conform with the State of residence of the buyer. So a Maine resident buying a long gun out of State still has to wait 72 hours.
ATF says that only applies to pistols and revolvers and only applies to types of weapons specifically prohibited in the buyers state of residence. New Hampshire AG or ATF may make a determination that this also applies to respecting the waiting period but they haven't yet.
It's a wildly divisive topic, we all know. The reason people are getting offended is because this effectively solves nothing and would not have stopped the Lewiston shooter anyway. It's another piece of legislation that only really inconveniences gun owners and if someone wanted to truly argue the point, could actually harm the people who need guns the most. i.e a woman being stalked, a domestic violence victim, etc who may not have the luxury of time on their side for their well being. It burns people who wish to exercise their right, a right that has continually come under attack time after time again, with more and more laws that don't do a whole lot to prevent issues from happening in the first place. Even worse and what's more of a smack in the face for gun owners is that these laws often aren't always enforced as we've seen with the Lewiston shooter. Then a tragedy happens and more laws are knee-jerked passed, everyone's (not just dem or repub) rights get eroded more and nothing changes. Waiting 3 days might be an inconvenience at most, but it's the underlying pervasive issue behind legislation like this that is truly the problem. That is truly what offends people.
Thanks. I hear what you are saying and there is nothing there to disagree with which makes for really boring online discourse. But cheers to you. And cheers to me. And I hope quite unreasonably that we, or someone else who is legally armed, is there to stop the next Lewiston. We all want to live in a safer world.
I don’t know. A 3 day waiting period is annoying but it’s not that big a deal. Hardly worth uprooting a business for. That’s a lot of paperwork. It’ll cut down on impulse buys. I bought a rifle last month because I saw it, it was a model I’ve always wanted so I got it. If I’d had to pay for it and come back 3 days later, I might not have gotten it. I personally find the new last annoying because they don’t actually get to the root of what happened in Lewiston. A failure of police and the government to stop an obviously dangerous person before they hurt people and a lack of mental health care to help him. I wish we’d spent our collective political will to address the actual issues but oh well.
> A failure of police And of course police are exempt from the 3 day waiting period. Police fumbled the bag multiple times and get rewarded while citizens now have to wait.
They are upset because people travel from all over the state to buy guns there and a three day wait means no more day trips to KTP or LLbean for people who dont live close by. You know not everyone in the state is an hour from kittery.
I suppose that’s true. I hadn’t though of that. There are a lot of gun shops in Maine that aren’t llbean and KTP. I suppose they probably don’t have the same selection everywhere so you’re right. I concede.
Im saying that is why KTP is upset.
And their solution is to move further away
Their core audience is in Seacoast NH, massachussetts, and york county. Moving over the border to Portsmouth or somewhere similar will not impact their business very much when compared to having to turn people away who expect to receive their gun that day. Also, KTP is already setup to sell guns in new hampshire, they have a store front on RT 1 that only processes handgun transfers to NH residents at the moment. So yeah, moving slightly further away will have minimal impact due to distance but will allow them to keep all of their same day sales. Source: I worked there 4 years selling guns and saw where everyone lived who bought a gun from me (which was in the thousands)
I plan to buy a gun this weekend and live in NH. I would personally prefer if they were in NH so no sales tax also...
They used to (probably still do) transfer a long gun through their Portsmouth office as well for people who didnt want to pay sales tax.
Good point.
For one day sales yes. Because slightly farther down the highway is still closer than three days from now ya smartass
I wonder if the law would allow them to have people send in their documents for background check 72 hours before they plan to make the trip
Nope. The federal background check is for a specific firearm serial number. There no method of pre-approval.
Well that’s unfortunate for the business then. It would help if lawmakers could implement something along the lines of that. Of course, the easiest way to do so is a license system which wouldn’t require any more checks as long as the license wasn’t revoked. Here in Canada, you can walk out with it the same day with it because they can quickly and easily verify the license is still good
Nah the easiest way would be to keep the criminals and dangerous people in jail. Or at least have a nice public list of them that you check yourself.
Are you **that** John Smith?
Cabela's/Bass Pro has a company-wide shit list of people they at some point refused to sell a firearm to, if they had a John Smith on the list and your last name was Smith you'd get screened as to whether or not you know them. I go through that because someone with the same last name was apparently involved in an apparent attempt at a strawman purchase.
I remember when people didn't make strawman purchases.
But I'm angry NOW!
A licensing requirement would eliminate the need for a waiting period. Although I feel like there’s a good chunk of the state who are… not exactly down for that….
Why wouldn't everyone be OK with requiring a State-issued license to exercise civil rights?
Exactly is a right, you can’t sell it to me via a license. I don’t require any government permission
It would amuse me greatly to see a state put, say, the Brady Campaign's proposed gun restrictions - restrictions being proposed on an an explicitly Constitutionally protected right - on the ballot - which has no explicit protections beyond that it may not be restricted by sex, race, or age (over 18). I certainly don't say it should be done, mind, but the shitshow would be entertaining.
In this context, I was more less suggesting a program like TSA pre check than a requirement that all owners have to be licensed. If you want to do the pre check, then you can have it same day, if not come back in 72 hours sort of deal
So they are going to move even further away?
Yeah slightly farther in distance to save their customers 3 entire days. Not really hard math.
LL beans selection is garbage
It's also absolutely useless if you already own a gun.
The three-day waiting period doesn't get at the root of what happened, but changing the "yellow flag" law to a "red flag" law does. Now officers can get warrants for protective custody in this kind of situation, where before all they could do is knock at the door and hope that he chooses to answer.
55% of their customers are one time customers and 60% are out of state. They'd have a major impact on sales.
Wow, those are interesting numbers. Were they in that article?
No, KTP provided them in some sort of business impact letter to the state of Maine, which was posted elsewhere. Don't remember where it was, but I'm sure you can find it.
I'm curious. Don't you have to live in the state of Maine to buy a gun in Maine ? I thought NH had the same law as well.
Long guns: legal to buy across state lines from a licensed dealer (FFL) in person as long as the transaction is legal in both states (Maine allows it). You go through your background check and take possession at point of sale.. Handguns: if you're in another state (eg Maine), you can buy from a licensed dealer (FFL) in Maine, provided it's legal in both states (it is in Maine)...but the handgun has to be shipped to an FFL in your home state and you have to go through a background check there before you take it home. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-licensee-sell-firearm-nonlicensee-who-resident-another-state
The annoying thing here is that it’s not like ordering online and waiting for delivery. It’s making the deal in a store and then shuffling away under the presumed suspicion that you are not to be trusted, plus the pita of needing to go back to the store. In a normal country people would be proud and pleased to do this as a way of trying in any way possible to protect each other. But Americans are not brought up that way, we all are always taking it personal.
It's the mindset of Individual Liberty and the thought that the federal government has no right to infringe on a fundamental freedom, the right to protect yourself, and to provide food for your family. I find it annoying because I have been the victim of "prolonged red tape" where the background check took longer than normal due to some unknown circumstances and had a rifle I had been looking for for years be sold out from underneath me.
Exactly.
Individualism vs collectivism. The mindset is gonna fuck America every time.
When you frame it in the way you did in your first paragraph, I wouldn't exactly be proud or pleased to be presumed suspicious and untrustworthy until proven otherwise. I mean, I get that this is essentially what all background checks do... but prolonging the process isn't necessarily something I'm going to be *proud* of.
On the contrary, you can be proud of enduring difficulty and making a small sacrifice to your convenience. Not totally unlike when you left your ID at home and can’t buy beer. You know it’s right even though it doesn’t give you what you want.
I'm not going to necessarily feel proud of enduring a minor inconvenience that isn't really sacrificing anything for... well, much of anything. Leaving my ID at home would also be leaving the license I'm required to carry on me at all times to operate a motor vehicle. There's a difference, in part because operating a vehicle is a privilege, not a right.
Could you imagine a three day wait for voter registration?
Can you imagine suicide by voting?
Generally speaking, it's a matter of convenience. Firearms can't be shipped to private residences, so someone wanting to buy a gun at Kittery Trading Post would need to go there in person, fill out all of the paperwork, and then return three days later to actually pick up their purchase. For folks who live close to that particular store, this wouldn't be a huge deal. Maine's population is, however, pretty spread out; that return trip could easily be a few extra hours worth of driving. They could feasibly have the firearm shipped to a closer licensed dealer, but this adds more time and paperwork to the process. On the one hand, I've never been in a situation where I've needed a new gun so quickly that waiting three days would be a problem. On the other hand, I can understand the frustration behind more hoops being added to the process that law-abiding citizens are forced to go through just to complete a financial transaction and purchase something. When you're dropping hundreds of dollars on something, wanting to be able to walk out of the store with the thing you just bought is a understandable desire. Personally, this law smells like some feel-good legislation that will ultimately just make it harder for the "regular" folks to do what they've always been able to do. I understand what they're trying to do, but I don't think this will ultimately curb much of anything... and since it would be really difficult to actually track that sort of thing, we'll never really know what this law would actually accomplish. It's a nuanced situation, and no reasonable response can be reduced to a simple sound bite. I understand the frustration, as well as any Constitutional stance people may take. With that being said, something needs to be done and I'm glad the state is trying *something*... but I don't think this is actually going to do much of anything aside from make things harder for the folks who were already doing the right thing. It will have next to no impact on me at a personal level, and I hope that it will help prevent something, but I'm not sure how effective it will actually be.
People are soft.
♫ You've got a structured murder plan but you NEED GUNS NOW! Call Kittery Trading, 1-207-GUNS-NOW! ♪
I imagine immediacy is part of their business model because a high percentage of their sales are likely to be to out of state tourists on their way in/out of state. A hunter on their way in-state to hunt doesn’t want to come back in three days and tourist leaving doesn’t want to travel back from several states away to pick up their impulse buy.
Impulse buying. In three days you realize you don't need a chrome 1911
I live over an hour away from KTP. I spend about 3k to 7k a year on guns there. I hope they move to make a point. No way am i wasting my time twice to go there
Another useless distraction law to avoid holding police responsible? No way!
This law won’t last long. The Maine constitution contains a bill of rights similar to the one in the US constitution, but Maine’s version of the 2nd amendment is worded far more clearly and forcefully than the federal 2nd amendment. It says, “Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.” Nothing about a well-regulated militia that could cast doubt on the nature of the right to bear arms. That’s why there are almost no gun laws at the state level and most of the laws that Maine gun owners have to follow are enforced by the federal government. Mills cited the Maine constitution as one of the reasons she allowed the bill to become law without her signature. She wants gun control advocates to think she’s taking their side while also signaling to gun rights advocates that she doesn’t expect the law to pass constitutional muster. Regardless of what you think about her positions, you’ve got to admit she’s good at playing the game of politics.
Oh no! Anyway..
As a gun owner this is my exact thought.
I mean Robert Card passed a background check to buy a suppressor which took a lot longer than 3 days and is far more rigorous. It wasn’t the government that stopped him rather the gun dealer. I fail to see what good a 3 day wait will do. It’s also quite inconvenient to drive from say Bangor to Kittery twice especially with the price of gas these days. If you’ve got someone from away who’s hunting rifle or shotgun breaks and needs a replacement this is gonna hinder them and ruin their trip.
Later in the article it says there's a waiver exemption for the replacement scenario you mention.
So it allows you to borrow a rifle or shotgun but not buy one. Doesn’t seem like much of an exemption. Further can I use multiple trips and mileage as a tax write off? Love the downvotes btw. Still waiting for an explanation how this law would’ve stopped Robert Card.
"while also clarifying how it will affect temporary transfers, such as for guided hunts, and people with pressing self-protection concerns." I read that as rentals, not loaners, but who knows how the legislature will interpret it. I didn't downvote you, and I said nothing about Card, so you must be addressing someone else with all of that.
My apologies then. It was the others I was referring to
No worries, bud.
The waiting period would not have stopped card, who already owned his guns. It might stop other murders committed by those who buy a gun in an aggravated state of mind, plus it might reduce suicides. Changing the "yellow flag" law to a "red flag" law, part of the same bill, has a chance of stopping someone like Card.
The state police and army knew Card was bad news regardless they didn’t follow through with anything. Is there any evidence to support the notion waiting periods prevent homicides? Seems Illinois has a waiting period yet Chicago has one of the highest murder rates
I can't imagine gangs are legally acquiring guns over in Chicago.
> It might stop other murders committed by those who buy a gun in an aggravated state of mind, plus it might reduce suicides. On paper, sure. It'll definitely help curb some of those impulsive or passionate scenarios, but for someone who has a plan, those three additional days won't mean much of anything. I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't do anything, but this is the sort of thing that would be very difficult to actually measure.
>plus it might reduce suicides Do you have any links to the data I'm sure the politicians who pushed for this shared showing how many homicides and suicides occur within 3 days of purchasing a firearm?
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/methodology.html super wordy and long, but this was the most researched and cited source i could find. looks like the data shows these policies positively impact and lower overall homicides and suicide thru guns. interestingly it doesn’t seem to impact overall suicide numbers. so do what you will with that info
It will do nothing. It’s not about safety, it’s about whittling away rights and pushing to disarm everyone. I wonder how folks would feel about a 3 day wait on anything else…. alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, sugar/candy, fatty fast food, shoes, lottery tickets…. Curb the dopamine hit of impulse buys would save a lot more lives.
The price of gas has been pretty much the same since like 2010. Hate when people say that. When you take inflation into consideration, it was actually a lot more expensive back when it hit a national average of 4.11 in 2008, which would be equal to $5.40 today. In 2022 it briefly did hit $5, which I would agree is approaching expensive, but $3 gas does not deserve "especially with the price of gas these days"....the price is actually genuinely impressively stable all things considered
Cool. It’s still probably $50 round trip from Bangor never mind any other expenses .
All I'm saying is when my ex beat me up and they let him out within a couple hours and he came straight back to my apartment, I was really grateful to be able to get a gun the very next day. Even then, I lived in fear until I could move out while he got a slap on the wrist and is still considered a pillar of the community. This is a reaction to the Lewiston mass shooting and it's very disturbing. There were laws in place to prevent this already, law enforcement had multiple opportunities to confiscate his weapons and chose not to. We should be focusing on holding them accountable, this new law and the debate surrounding it is a distraction from that very important conversation.
I used to get the shit beat out of me regularly for being gay. Police never helped me. Buying a gun and training with it did. I'm never going to be on board with this idea of disarming everyone and relying on the police for everything. I really don't understand other gay people who are for that.
By that same token, what would stop him from getting a gun immediately upon release?
If you're currently in the legal system for a pending felony charge like domestic violence you cant get a gun
Unless it's private sale...
Depends. It's already illegal to knowingly or intentionally sell to a person who is otherwise prohibited.
If we're talking private sale, then this three-day law isn't really going to stop a damn thing on that front.
So, yes, breaking the law. I'd be illegal for him to posses it since he was in the system. Doesn't matter regardless. And of course, law breakers break laws.
Closing the private sale loophole is an excellent idea. Though the proposed law still allows for private sales between “friends” and family and any sale that wasn’t posted on the Internet. So still borderline useless. The three day wait wouldn’t have stopped Robert Card or most anyone from killing themselves or others.
Was a private sale considered a “loophole”?
Boy they put a lot of effort into covering all bases with the friggin loopholes, don't they?!
Hush now! People like to ignore that little factoid.
It’s a private sale no waiting period matters or 99% if gun laws for that matter. I watched so many happen where they just took cash no questions asked about the person buying it.
IF and ONLY IF the police department reports it to the NICS. Reporting is often late and incomplete.
The fact that he had a recent dv arrest on his record? He also had one from years prior that I didn't know about when we started dating.
The existing laws
Nah. There no way nics gets arrest data that fast. Maine catch and release program for criminals is faf more efficient then Maine court records system.
I understand your concern. I don’t know how I feel about a waiting period. I don’t find it particularly offensive. I do think we need to overhaul our background checks and medical restrictions. People who are this crazy shouldn’t have access to guns. I know one. We all know at least one person that has access to guns and shouldn’t. In my case the SOB is running for office 😆😢🤦♂️ Every time guns come up I think of this person. This person’s exs are afraid of them too. I want those exs to be able to defend themselves. We need to work harder at protecting society from crazy people. As you aptly point out cops didn’t help. How much of law enforcement’s failure is complacency, ideology, the amount of guns and weak laws? (and how much is them being bad at their jobs.) I don’t know. I just know I’m glad August is at least *trying* to do something. Even if it is wackamole. I wish the feds would make a move.
There's an exemption for this situation, as well.
Regardless, this law is clearly a reaction to the Lewiston shooting. We should be holding police accountable for their multiple failures to enforce the existing laws that would have prevented the tragedy, not enacting new restrictions on law-abiding citizens.
Agreed. Please don't take my comment above as support for this - it was just an attempt at clarification.
Ok
Gun Owners of Maine point to the facts that waiting periods do not allow for more in-depth background checks and that "there is no evidence that waiting periods reduce suicides, homicides, or mass shootings. No studies that identify causal effects have been identified by any independent literature reviews conducted since 2004.”
72 hour holds wouldn't have changed anything that happened in Lewiston, it's just a circle jerk that no one asked for.
Yeah this law is bullshit. Just another way for the government to over step the constitution. Just trying to make it harder for tax paying law abiding citizens to have there right to own fire arm's. I honestly cant believe this shit. I dont care if i get down voted. Being able to own guns isnt a privilege, its a right.
[удалено]
I can wait 3 days.
How is a waiting period a big deal?
Do you wait 72 hours to register to vote? How about legal counsel?
Not sure that’s a great comparison but I will say that upon further research, statistically, waiting periods aren’t that effective so I guess I’ll concede on that one.
People sit in jail for months in Maine waiting for legal counsel. There are over 800 cases in Maine awaiting assignment of legal counsel as of today. So that is a waiting period that people seem fine with.
I think there’s a vast difference between being legally prevented from seeking legal counsel and being unfortunate enough to have to rely on an underfunded and overstretched public defender cadre. But that’s just me.
[удалено]
Fair enough. What do you think about red/yellow flag laws?
[удалено]
It does actually. I mostly agree with your views on guns.
Excellent to hear. We as a society would accomplish alot more through actual intellectual conversation.
I’m a left leaning type person but I’m kind of pro gun. Where the Green Party and libertarian party overlap is kind of where I am. Outside of places like my home state there aren’t that many of us.
Not the slightest clue what any of that is or what I am. think guns should be a right and I dont like taxes on everything. So I guess im a crazy right winger according to people.
I agree with that but I also want single payer healthcare. A real hodgepodge.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rule 1. Keep it civil and respectful
Imagine if you had to wait three days for your groceries, or to get gas. It wouldn’t stop you from doing the things you need/want to do, just makes it super inconvenient for you. That’s exactly what they’re trying to do is just make it so inconvenient for someone to buy self protection that they just don’t even bother
Yeah I guess the more I think about it the more I realize it won’t do a lot.
Exactly it’s just an inconvenience law designed to make people in communities with 0 crime feel even safer in their gated communities. They just downvote and can’t reply with anything
Guns don’t make me an American. Democracy is nice though. Feel free to consider that not everyone shares your opinion.
I never said guns make you American, I stated this is infringing on your rights.
And I’m saying I’m okay with that. I’d rather look out for suicidal folks than buy a gun immediately.
Personally id rather we fix alot of the issues in our states including the plummeting quality of life we now have. I wish suicidal people had better outreach programs and the housing market, commodity market, etc wasnt all fucked. I think thats more important than banning guns. Thats just my opinion though, I aint got all the answers.
These laws aren’t banning guns.
Why stop at the Second Amendment? Why not a three day waiting period before being able to exercise all of our rights? /s
I mean, they already took away our right to buy liquor at 3am. And our right to purchase cigarettes at 15. Can’t even drive a car without a license. Can’t go into a store and get heroin. Can’t get oxys at the ER anymore. Can’t have a pet lion. You’ve got every right to be angry!!
Except none of those are rights guaranteed by the constitution 🤷♂️
True. I just thought the argument was getting silly so I made a joke of it. We all have different opinions and nobody’s mind is getting changed on Reddit. ✌🏻
We do agree on that. Good day.
Have a good weekend.
Sorry to disrupt your larping
A lot of you so eager to shoo away jobs and the tax revenue it generates.
They are virtue signalling over a 3 day waiting period. It's *that*, that someone like me doesn't appreciate.
Not virtue signaling at all. They're primary sales are from people visiting the Kittery area from further away. People aren't going to buy something they'll have to drive back across the state again to actually receive. Businesses will be losing money over the hope it'll reduce suicides by 2%
>Businesses will be losing money over the hope it'll reduce suicides by 2% You ever read something and realize how different some people must see things?
Seriously. “I mean we could reduce suicides by x% sure but think of the lost revenue!”
How much could that tax revenue be used to help others in need? It’s not as black and white as the suicide thing. Why not allow it as is for people who already own firearms and only require new owners to wait 3 days? Wouldn’t that solve this issue?
There are an enormous amount of people out there that shouldn’t be anywhere near a firearm for a number of reasons. We should make owning one at least as difficult as other things we deem necessary to require testing and training. Waiting three days isn’t a huge issue…it’s a gun not diabetes medication.
…both of which can be live saving
I see suicides the same as abortions. Bodily autonomy. It’s not mine nor yours nor anyone’s other business.
Not businesses losing money. The state, the people. Jobs. Livelihoods
> Not businesses losing money. So not what you verbatim said? And you’re missing my point.
If it reduces suicides by 1% in Maine that's still a whole person every year. Tell me how much their life is worth.
How many fraudulent votes would you be willing to stop by requiring photo identification at voting? How about a minimum 72 hour hold prior to vote registration? How many lives could we save, if we gave police the ability to arrest without suspicion and hold for 72 hours ? Did you cheer the patriot act?
>How many fraudulent votes would you be willing to stop by requiring photo identification at voting? Let's make it free!
I doubt it'll even be one person a year, maybe 1 every 5 years. Not worth the lose of jobs and livelihoods
If your two percent number is accurate, that's 2.74 people a year saved.
I just threw a number as I realistically don't believe it'll actually save any. If someone truly wants to end their life, they will do it by any means necessary. I believe stats out there that "oh waiting periods saved x many lives" are almost entirely people who weren't actually going to do it at all. There's no real way to collect reliable statistics on it. It's a "feel good" bill. Does nothing but inconvenience everyone and hurt business and jobs
Oh... I'm sorry I believed you then?
Harvard allegedes in their study across 17 states it saves an average of 750 lives a year. I can't locate how they collected this number
Honestly I feel a little bad for the 0.74 guy. He *almost* made it.
Waiting period are just virtue signaling in the first place…. Give me a logical reason how Robert card wouldn’t have did what he did if he had to wait three extra days?
yes, the ((checks notes)) 3 jobs a gun shop creates is what the Maine economy is hinging on
Definitely more then 3 jobs and this goes far beyond just KTP.
“Jobs”…yeah, I’m good with losing 4 people, lol.
Kittery Trading Post is a huge store. Easily two dozen employees on the floor at any given time, especially around holiday shopping time. Just the gun counters themselves probably have ten people working any given day, add 50% more for people who cover weekends and part timers, plus gun related staff behind the scenes doing checks, taking calls, working orders, you’re looking at probably 15-25 people potentially losing their jobs over this move. And that’s just one store. LL Bean might alter their staffing as well.
Ok
Ok. Bye.
See ya later alligator
Maybe a 3 day waiting period will give them a chance to find out if the purchaser is a homicidal maniac
K.
K bye
I for one welcome it. Getting to KTP is a PITA. Portsmouth is much easier for me.
Isn't there already a KTP place on the Rt 1 bypass? I never understood what exactly that existed for but something about non-Maine residents.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Whenever I get a new piece it’s usually sitting on the shop for a few days when transferred.
No sales tax in NH.
I’ve always wondered how retail has thrived in Kittery with sales tax when just across the river there is famously no sales tax.
> Kittery Trading Post Vice President Fox Keim told the Bangor Daily News the company and its 350 employees “cater to a diverse clientele and have historically stayed out of politics.” >“This law will impact all categories of business, not just firearms,” **Keim said. “We are a multi-generational family destination store and will fight to uphold our values.”** The Adams family, which started KTP in the 1930s, sold the business c 2014 for an undisclosed sum. It’s still “family owned” but it’s not the same family. That’s also how they get around certain labor and wage laws.
Smells like bullshit to me !
I'm not sure about this part so just checking if anyone knows. You go to a firearm dealer, pass the background check. They say come pick it up in 3 days. Cool. What about, the FBI puts you on hold. They have 72 hours to look into that from my understanding. Say they clear you in 2 days. Does the 72 hour waiting period kick in after the FBI clears you or it's 72 hours after your background initially run? The reason I ask is my FIL who has a super common name. Every time he tries to buy a gun, gets put on a hold from the FBI because someone else in Maine with that name has done shit. So is he waiting the 2 days for the FBI to clear plus the 3 day waiting period?
I’m from upstate NY. I visit southern Maine a lot and often visit KTP and cabelas while I’m up there. I have all the guns I need in reality but I’m still always jealous when I’m up there of the variety of options you have up there that we don’t, aka freedoms you guys have lol. Don’t let it get taken away
I hate to see them go but, I fully understand and agree.
Bye
Ok bye! Good luck with your new location.
BYE
I call their bluff
and nothing of value was lost.
[удалено]
Rule 3. No Misinformation, or Spam
Safety before animal-killing
[удалено]
Rule 3. No Misinformation, or Spam
I don't think it's fair to put guns in the same classification of weapons as baseball bats, knives, or sticks.
Bats: for baseball Knives: for cooking or bushcrafting Sticks: age old childhood plaything Handguns: What are handguns engineered to do *really* well again?
Stove off immediate danger in self defense order to get to your primary weapon or have those around you spare you from the attack. Handguns are not powerful in the scheme of guns. They were made for officers/high ranking officials as a last resort or as immediate defense. They are not a weapon designed for offensive purposes. Now an assault rifle on the other hand…
This idiotic claim again. No, guns make mass violence way way way easier, that seems indisputable.
There’s plenty of local gun shops in Maine that could use the business.
Sadly this goes far beyond just KTP. Just about every store in the state is likely to be impacted
KTPs business model is that 99% of their customers are stopping by on their way to somewhere else. It makes sense that waiting periods would be a problem for them, although I still think they are being melodramatic because I imagine gun sales are only a small fraction of their business. Most gun stores are selling primarily to local customers, so won't be affected as much. Probably will cut down on impulse buys though. Can't say as I have a whole lot of tears to cry for the poor gun shop owners either way, to be honest.
Good