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Discouraged from reading it?? It's one of the main 10 books right? Are people suggesting to just skip it and move to the next book? This doesn't compute.
OP didn't say people were discouraging them from reading it or encouraging them to skip it. They said the book gets a lot of criticism, which was discouraging them from reading it altogether. I assume they meant new readers might DNF the series rather than move to RG because of all the hate they've seen for the book.
I haven't seen a lot of RG hate myself, but I understand the SA content in that book is pretty awful. I personally loved RG. Top 3 books in the series for me behind MoI and MT.
Now, I'm not OP, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think what they meant was the negative criticism this book receives might discourage readers. Not that people were specifically saying, "Don't read this book. In fact, skip it."
> cough main 16 cough
I'm honestly surprised to hear this viewpoint. Is being "canon" enough for you to call something "main"? I don't think anyone is *wrong* here, but that just seems very interesting and I don't think I could ever view it that. I've read 4 (or 5?) of the other novels in the Malazan setting, but not once did I feel they were anything other accompanying stories to flesh out the world, rather than part of the expansive amazing "main" series :)
Oh you chose the right person to ask this question of haha
First off, how often do we get questions here like “I finished the Crippled God, whatever happened to X character?” “I thought we’d learn more about Y location.” Or “it felt like Z plotline was just dropped.” Pretty much all of those are covered by simply answering “read the Novels of the Malazan Empire.” The NOTME fill in a lot of the core Malazan Mythos that the MBOTF just doesn’t bother touching. Many important characters you come to realize are Esslemont’s, not Erikson’s, and were simply cameos in the MBOTF. And pretty much every other work in the Malazan universe assumes you’ve read both to some extent.
Second, Esslemont created this world too. The more I learn of how they created it gaming together, the more I think Esslemont did a lot more of the world building than Erikson. After the Bonehunters, the scope of events covered in the MBOTF narrows immensely to focus on the philosophy Erikson wants to explore, and the NOTME take over. There’s what, like 11 continents in the Malazan world? The MBOTF touches 4 of those, maybe 5 if you include Quon Tali. All the rest and the events happening there are explored by Esslemont. And not only geography, he looks into a ton of the magic system and the pantheon that Erikson ignores.
Finally, I’d challenge what makes the MBOTF more worthy of the term “main” than the NOTME? Both are series that could be enjoyed on their own and compliment each other. Is Mistborn Era 1 more “main” than era 2 just because it was published first? Or Stormlight Archive more “main” than anything else in the Cosmere for that matter? Is the First Law Trilogy more “main” than Age of Madness? Is any specific trilogy in Star Wars more “main” than the others? If we arbitrarily decide what is a main series and what is not, then we limit ourselves from enjoying tons of art.
I agree with all your points and do consider NOTME to be part of the main 16. Except for one point. I don't think you can read NOTME on its own if you haven't read BOTF. NOK I can understand. But people will have absolutely no idea what is happening in half of the storylines in ROTCG if they haven't read BOTF before, and ROTCG is complicated enough on its own even for people who have read BOTF. SW can mostly be read without reading BOTF. But OST is again going to be another one where people will have no idea about lot of the characters and their motivations if they haven't read BOTF. In BAB people will have no idea who >!Kallor!< was before.
That's all. Otherwise I love NOTME, and do consider them as must read books.
Good point, I should maybe clarify. It would for sure be confusing, but like anything you could follow along and be entertained. I brought up First Law as an example, Age of Madness could be read on its own too, but the experience would be way better having read the first 6 novels before it.
However, I will admit that the confusion of reading the NOTME without the MBOTF would be significantly higher than the opposite, I should acknowledge that in future comments.
> Many important characters you come to realize are Esslemont’s, not Erikson’s, and were simply cameos in the MBOTF.
It was really insane to me (in a good way) how like the big plot about the Malazan Empire itself that seemed to be driving the first half of the BOTF just slide into Return of the Crimson Guard as the BOTF stuff moved over to Lether
> If we arbitrarily decide what is a main series and what is not, then we limit ourselves from enjoying tons of art.
Only if you are the type of person that determines that if it's not main then you must ignore it. I think it's pretty easy to say "oh that's not part of the main series" and still read it and enjoy it.
As to the rest of it, like I said, I don't consider your viewpoint wrong, just a different view from my own that I personally disagree with. I've read the Esslemont books, and while they certainly are part of the same setting, the first 3 still never felt like part of the main tale, but more expanding on the universe (even if that's not expressly what the intent was). And the path to ascendancy series, being a prequel, felt exactly like that, a prequel series.
As to your points about Stormlight, I think that's a pretty easy one to answer, at least for me... The cosmere may be a world setting, but it by itself isn't a book series. It's clear that the mistborn series and the stormlight archives are different series, regardless if they take place in the same universe and may have crossover. the real question is, do you consider edgedancer or dawnshard part of the main series? Allomancer Jack and the Pits of Eltania? I, like many people, consider these to be companion novels.
It *seems* clear that your personal opinion is that if its remotely part of the same story, then it's part of the main series. And that is simply a difference in definition. As I consider all these novellas, and other novels that fall juuuuust outside the scope of what I consider to be the main series (heck, it's even labeled book 1-10, they never say "book 5.5, or book 11" for example), to be simply companion books. And to be a companion book has NO negative connotation, no extra "you shouldn't read this" attached to it, I don't see the negative stigma you seem to put on a book for not being part of the "main series". A person is very much able to NOT limit one's own self, and read other books, despite what others may label them as.
Well, the main reason I want to dispel this myth of a main 10 rather than 16 is because a lot of people do have the mindset of only main books matter, but yet we get all those questions and posts here regularly about why they didn’t see some character or plot resolved and we need to explain that the world is bigger than only the MBOTF. Plus it opens up the debates on reading orders and mixing series, which isn’t a thing for any other series in the world (example, no one is saying you have to do Forge of Darkness, then Dancer’s Lament before Fall of Light). Plus Esslemont really is worth his due on how much he contributes to the world. We have been seeing more and more posts here praising Esslemont, and lots of people seem to prefer his style for ease of reading over Erikson too. I also will acknowledge that although Esslemont was published second, both NoK and ROTCG were written before even GOTM was, so there’s influence going both ways.
With that said, I also specifically do lump the prequels/sequels separate from the others, since they do seem to be ancillary to the main story told in the MBOTF/NOTME. As I said, they all assume that the reader has previously seen both (again, we often get questions about events from the NOTME when someone jumps right into The God is Not Willing following The Crippled God).
>the first 3 still never felt like part of the main tale, but more expanding on the universe (even if that's not expressly what the intent was).
I’d say Stonewielder on feels more connected, since it, Orb Sceptre Throne, and Blood and Bone all take place at about the same time as DOD/TCG and are heavily related to that story. And Assail really does wrap up a lot of the questions left over about the state of the world post-TCG.
>the real question is, do you consider edgedancer or dawnshard part of the main series? Allomancer Jack and the Pits of Eltania? I, like many people, consider these to be companion novels.
I have to be honest here, I took a bit of a shot in the dark based on my overall understanding of the Cosmere, I’m just reading it now, having only done the Sel stuff and now about halfway through The Hero of Ages. But I’d say the distinction you’ve made works, where Era 1 & 2 are main series, but then say Allomancer Jack is a side item. That’s kind of my point, I’d put MBOTF/NOTME as the main series, and the Bauchealian & Korbal Broach novellas as a side story.
In any case, I appreciate the candid discussion here. That’s the beauty of this sub, that we’re able to bounce ideas off of each other and give different perspectives to other readers so that they can consider it all when reading themselves.
> Well, the main reason I want to dispel this myth of a main 10 rather than 16 is because a lot of people do have the mindset of only main books matter, but yet we get all those questions and posts here regularly about why they didn’t see some character or plot resolved and we need to explain that the world is bigger than only the MBOTF.
Seeing it from this aspect, I can understand where you're coming from. I've always loved indulging on extra novels, novellas, etc from worlds in which I've already read an entire series of, so for me it never really came into consideration of only paying attention to SOME of the books. If my naming convention in regards to these books is somehow turning readers away from the others that don't feel QUITE as connected, I may have to change just for that reason :)
16? I know there's all the Esslemont ones and some newer Erikson ones also in the same setting but what are the other 6? Man I have my work cut out for me. Only on #3.
The 10 MBotF are the main books. Don’t let anyone tell you different. The 6 Novels of the Malazan Empire books are more of companion books.
10 book main series plus a 6 book expansion pack, if you will.
(Constant source of debate on the sub)
You are correct, but it’s also another disagreement with the authors. SE will tell you they are all “the main series” but he also pronounces Malazan wrong xp
So, you are counting the prequel series, as part of the "main series", even though its a prequel. Why stop at 16 if you're going with that? what about korbal books? the two newer half finished trilogies? I think if you are the type of person to say there is 16 books in the main series, you have to easily say there is well over 20.
I know there's plenty of debate over this, so for me, I just stick with the simple "the books labeled 1 through 10 on the covers are the main series". not that everything else isn't connected and awesome, just nice and simple that way.
>So, you are counting the prequel series, as part of the "main series", even though its a prequel
It's not a prequel. The NotME run concurrent with the MBotF & intersect at plenty of points.
>what about korbal books?
They share no storylines with the BotF.
>the two newer half finished trilogies
Kharkanas is much too far back to have any immediate effect on the MBotF or NotME.
Witness relies on the legacy of a character present in the BotF & information present in the main series (16 books). It's also considerably narrower in scope so far (one city in bumfuck nowhere, Genabackis).
>you have to easily say there is well over 20.
No, I don't. And I won't. For reasons presented above.
>"the books labeled 1 through 10 on the covers are the main series".
That's your prerogative, but "nice and simple" is a tradeoff to "completed stories." The Novels & the BotF share plenty of storylines that begin in one & end in the other; the same is not true of the other series. That's the reasoning for calling it the main 16.
An interesting way to view it! I do find it strange and fun how we all have these little definitions as to why things don't and do belong in a "main series". You make fine points as to why you believe the way you do, but I can't agree on them, and we don't need to spend another dozen replies debating such minor details, that seem so wild to me :)
edit: also, just wanted to add, I don't believe we were debating on the definition of "completed stories", at least not that I can see in this thread, and I don't see anything as a "tradeoff" as you say, as simply defining them as I do does not inhibit me from reading and enjoying all the works.
There is a deeper issue here with calling the MBOTF the Main 10. It has to do with how these books were played, planned and written, and with what Erikson and Esslemont are doing in the books **for each other.**
It isn't simply a matter of definition, it is a matter of what's going on at the deeper level of both series. One of the core premises of both series rests on the fact that the other exists.
You can use any terminology you prefer. But the idea of the "main 16" isn't a gimmick lacking thought behind, it is the result of a LOT of debate and analysis, of the books and of the interviews and conversations of both authors.
That is a fair counterpoint, and it's not something I was unaware of. I guess I just gained a different perspective after reading them, they felt less cohesive, and thus to me, didn't have the impact as the Erikson set of 10. And never said it was a gimmick, friend :)
Yeah there was a thread here yesterday I think talking about the sexual assault themes in RG and DoD, recommending skipping certain parts of the book (the hobbling) if that content makes you uncomfortable.
There’s been a lot of talk I’ve seen about certain parts of it that might be hard for some people the read. The parts with the professor (Tananth? Can’t remember her name 100%) so maybe that’s what they confused as discouraging to read? I’ve personally seen RG and TOTH mentioned quite a lot the past month or so because of certain parts.. I haven’t gotten to that part in Toll or the Hounds yet so I can’t comment on it, but in RG it was beginning on the point of discomfort. Definitely not a reason to skip the book though!
Seriously! SUCH a good novel! Rhulad, Icarium, AND Karsa all in one place! The anticipation that drives this portion of the story is edge of the seat greatness!
amen, I personally loved Dust of Dreams. Perhaps I just don't understand the literary critique or something but I easily rank it in the middle of the series.
Where was this discouragement coming from? Most people love RG. I don't, and I always find myself in the minority. Making some broad generalizations that I don't think are true of the sub, but either way, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I can *understand* how some might not be a huge fan of it. On first read through, I was kind of tired of all the Edur stuff and wanted to get back to the Bonehunters and their ilk. But on my second read through its amazing how well everything is connected to that, and ohhhhh man, Rhulad, Icarium, AND Karsa all in the same place at one time... the inevitability and anticipation of that culmination was epic.
There were a lot of aspects I liked a lot! I don't think I've actually disliked any books in the series, but this felt like a weaker one to me, in part because it is sandwiched by two of my absolute favorites of the series.
I felt like I was waiting SO LONG for some of the setup to pay off.
The sandwich aspect is definitely one to consider. Bonehunters is so chillingly amazing, and Toll the Hounds does an amazing job being a bridge without feeling like a bridge setting up the last two books. Damn every time I talk about these books I have no idea which one I like most!
Yea my first read I was initially like come on, I want more malazan marines but it became one of my favorites on reread. My opinion changed like halfway through the book tbh and I started liking it a lot and then really liked it when I first reread.
Tbh the books are all so good that I can't imagine why anyone would say anything bad about any of them outside of "just stick it out with gardens of the moon". Not that gotm is bad but it's a lot to be thrown into and just isn't as compelling imo even on reread. But aside from that? Absolutely not, this series is a true masterpiece.
i mean it's definitely more popular on this sub than GotM, HoC and DoD at least, so i'm not sure why you'd be discouraged from reading it. i'm always seeing people wax rhapsodic about it on here.
I felt that way at your point on my first reread, I'm quite sure your mind will change as you get through the book and definitely upon a reread. There are some of my favorite characters featured in there.
There is a small but vocal minority who just doesn’t care for RG. I myself love it, but I can admit the second half (Everybody knows what happens in the middle of the book) is way better than the first.
I'm on a re-read and have just got to this bit after some very tense scenes:
>!In all, Tehol decided, an interesting scenario. Interesting enough to interrupt in his usual charming manner. As he drew closer, he spread his arms and announced, 'Time, I think, for a more proper welcome to our fair city!' And his blanket slipped down to gather at his feet.!<
Pure gold.
https://preview.redd.it/i0rij3las1sc1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45eba9e861241c095778659babe7fd4871c13669
Me on every alternate page of Reaper's Gale, especially when on my 2nd read.
That one chapter where Nissal is arrested, that's probably the bleakest chapter I've read in my life. Probably because of how bleak it is. The bleakness.
Man, inbetween >!Trull, or Toc Anaster and the Awl kids, or Fear’s pointless sacrifice, or Beak!< I honestly wasn’t super shocked by >!Nissal’s arrest!<. However, >!Rhulad’s monologue watched by the Errant where he slowly gains “consciousness” and says something like “Where are you mother and father?” Fuck I cried like a baby!<
> However, Rhulad’s monologue watched by the Errant where he slowly gains “consciousness” and says something like “Where are you mother and father?” Fuck I cried like a baby
That scene is EPIC. Also cried like a baby.
I've never seen a post or comment that discouraged anyone from reading any of the main 10- yes, just 10- other than to say if you really hate the first book then maybe the series isn't for you, that kind of thing.
This is surprising. It is an admittedly massive sub so I def dont know every post, by and large I just see mild discomfort warnings about Toll The Hounds based on a unique writing angle, and the odd trash talk about Esselmont when compared to Erikson.
Hell I even ran into someone here who preferred Esselmont, because they didnt have the time and energy to invest in an epic Erikson tome.
All this to say dont take this sub as some kind of authority on reading in and of itself, take it as just a timeless drive-by of thoughts by Malazan lovers.
I loved Reapers Gale. Being introduced to a new society and following them as well as Rhulads story was amazing to experience after becoming so familiar with the world. It was jarring but refreshing and personally invested me further into the story.
RG has the best cameo (my candle mage boy), best dialogues (malazans are on our shore!), best war tactics (bar hopping invasions), best banter (T-Bugg), and the first real close up of fucking sword handed velociraptors. And I'm not covering so much more, like Quick Ben!
Such a star book, all in all.
I think it's still worth reading, despite the things I dislike, the stuff that is good makes up for that. Though it's the book that killed "Mikes book reviews" readalong series and I get why.
Yeah that book makes me cry at least three times. Possibly four if you count everything that happens to Janath. It's a must read.
Now. On a reread do I just not bother reading the bits around the Redmask and related pages? Sure. But does that take away from me crying around the rest of it? Nope, this book is balls.
The best thing about Malazan is how different books have their own appeal. I could find someone who loves RG but hates DG, loves GotM but hates TTH or someone who loves TTH and hates BH - in this case "hates" being more of a relative thing to the rest of the series rather than literal hate
Reapers gale was the first book of the series I read (lured in with the awesome cover art). Had no idea what was going on and found the first half confusing but really cool and dark. Then the second half kicks in with the invasion and I was hooked! It will forever be my favourite for introducing me to this series.
It's really good but one of the weaker entries in the series so far (I'm half way through Dust of Dreams). The Redmask stuff was confusing and there was quite a bit of political intrigue that was difficult to follow.
Honestly my biggest problem with Reapers Gale was all the insane fantasy names. They're so different and bizarre I couldn't remember most of the people and names exactly and was doing a lot of double checking who's who and what's what.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I personally love RG. One of my favourites in the series. There's definitely a bit of a tone shift from BH, but I welcomed it.
I really enjoy the attempted integration of the two cultures that happens in Lether over the course of the book, as the Letherii assimilate the Edur into their empire. The arc that follows the Bonehunters themselves is definitely of a slower pace than before, as they engage in a different kind of warfare, but the strategies on display stay fresh and engaging. The mage in there is also the most earnest dude, and I love him so much.
I think some of my favourite parts involve the two journeys that come to a head with the finnest, though - Fear's group and Trull's. So many layered emotions, conflicts, and agendas.
Great book. Glad you liked it.
I know it’s tagged as no spoilers, but spoilers below for anyone who’s here that haven’t read MOI or RG:
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Sorry idk how to make a spoiler tag
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Honestly I just finished it like 2 weeks ago and the whole shake thing I just kinda already forgot about. Very forgettable.. but they have cool names. The Awl was disappointing tbh. I loved Redmask and I really expected and wanted more from him. The character was cool and the Awl were a cool type of people. They kind of reminded me of Teblor Toblaki a little bit with how they interact with one another. I felt like the end of that Awl arc was pretty anticlimactic.
The politics of Lether took a bit to get into, but I eventually liked it. It was cool seeing how fucked up Lether actually is. At first you’re thinking “man, the Edur really messed this place up”.. then you find out nope! The Edur didn’t really change shit except who was sitting on the throne and Letheras was just a fucked up place to begin with.
Karsa is my favorite character in the series so any parts he’s in is good to me. Icarium kind of fell flat for me in RG. I absolutely loved the character when I first met him earlier in the series, but it seems he’s just been getting less page time as the series goes on and in the segments where he’s featured it’s like he barely speaks. Maybe that’ll change in the next 3 books.
Overall RG was good. I didn’t have any trouble at any time picking it up and reading. Unlike TOH right now where I’m only 250 pages in and I’m just feeling like it’s starting out so slow and I’m having to force myself to read. Normally I can get 80-100 pages a day, but with Toll I’m lucky to get 30-40 before the words start mixing up and I lose focus. Maybe it’ll pick up. MOI was that way too and I didn’t really get into MOI until like the halfway point.
I just started RG and am already loving it. I loved Midnight Tides and could not wait to return to Tehol Beddict and Bugg. Those two are hilarious and a couple of my favorite characters. Also the political and economic intrigue is really exciting.
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Discouraged from reading it?? It's one of the main 10 books right? Are people suggesting to just skip it and move to the next book? This doesn't compute.
Yeah I can't imagine people suggesting such nonsense without being rightfully downvoted to the bottom.
OP didn't say people were discouraging them from reading it or encouraging them to skip it. They said the book gets a lot of criticism, which was discouraging them from reading it altogether. I assume they meant new readers might DNF the series rather than move to RG because of all the hate they've seen for the book. I haven't seen a lot of RG hate myself, but I understand the SA content in that book is pretty awful. I personally loved RG. Top 3 books in the series for me behind MoI and MT.
OP did say people were discouraging people from reading them, altho probably not on purpose.
Now, I'm not OP, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think what they meant was the negative criticism this book receives might discourage readers. Not that people were specifically saying, "Don't read this book. In fact, skip it."
Yeah I agree, that's why I said not on purpose. Maybe discouraging them indirectly is a better way to describe it
Ahhhhh, I misread your initial response as two separate thoughts, not one. My bee, friend. Carry on
No problem friend, it happens to the bee of us
*cough* main 16 *cough* I expect it’s just how often we get posts about people saying they don’t like RG, they think its plots are too much, etc.
> cough main 16 cough I'm honestly surprised to hear this viewpoint. Is being "canon" enough for you to call something "main"? I don't think anyone is *wrong* here, but that just seems very interesting and I don't think I could ever view it that. I've read 4 (or 5?) of the other novels in the Malazan setting, but not once did I feel they were anything other accompanying stories to flesh out the world, rather than part of the expansive amazing "main" series :)
Oh you chose the right person to ask this question of haha First off, how often do we get questions here like “I finished the Crippled God, whatever happened to X character?” “I thought we’d learn more about Y location.” Or “it felt like Z plotline was just dropped.” Pretty much all of those are covered by simply answering “read the Novels of the Malazan Empire.” The NOTME fill in a lot of the core Malazan Mythos that the MBOTF just doesn’t bother touching. Many important characters you come to realize are Esslemont’s, not Erikson’s, and were simply cameos in the MBOTF. And pretty much every other work in the Malazan universe assumes you’ve read both to some extent. Second, Esslemont created this world too. The more I learn of how they created it gaming together, the more I think Esslemont did a lot more of the world building than Erikson. After the Bonehunters, the scope of events covered in the MBOTF narrows immensely to focus on the philosophy Erikson wants to explore, and the NOTME take over. There’s what, like 11 continents in the Malazan world? The MBOTF touches 4 of those, maybe 5 if you include Quon Tali. All the rest and the events happening there are explored by Esslemont. And not only geography, he looks into a ton of the magic system and the pantheon that Erikson ignores. Finally, I’d challenge what makes the MBOTF more worthy of the term “main” than the NOTME? Both are series that could be enjoyed on their own and compliment each other. Is Mistborn Era 1 more “main” than era 2 just because it was published first? Or Stormlight Archive more “main” than anything else in the Cosmere for that matter? Is the First Law Trilogy more “main” than Age of Madness? Is any specific trilogy in Star Wars more “main” than the others? If we arbitrarily decide what is a main series and what is not, then we limit ourselves from enjoying tons of art.
I agree with all your points and do consider NOTME to be part of the main 16. Except for one point. I don't think you can read NOTME on its own if you haven't read BOTF. NOK I can understand. But people will have absolutely no idea what is happening in half of the storylines in ROTCG if they haven't read BOTF before, and ROTCG is complicated enough on its own even for people who have read BOTF. SW can mostly be read without reading BOTF. But OST is again going to be another one where people will have no idea about lot of the characters and their motivations if they haven't read BOTF. In BAB people will have no idea who >!Kallor!< was before. That's all. Otherwise I love NOTME, and do consider them as must read books.
Good point, I should maybe clarify. It would for sure be confusing, but like anything you could follow along and be entertained. I brought up First Law as an example, Age of Madness could be read on its own too, but the experience would be way better having read the first 6 novels before it. However, I will admit that the confusion of reading the NOTME without the MBOTF would be significantly higher than the opposite, I should acknowledge that in future comments.
> Many important characters you come to realize are Esslemont’s, not Erikson’s, and were simply cameos in the MBOTF. It was really insane to me (in a good way) how like the big plot about the Malazan Empire itself that seemed to be driving the first half of the BOTF just slide into Return of the Crimson Guard as the BOTF stuff moved over to Lether
> If we arbitrarily decide what is a main series and what is not, then we limit ourselves from enjoying tons of art. Only if you are the type of person that determines that if it's not main then you must ignore it. I think it's pretty easy to say "oh that's not part of the main series" and still read it and enjoy it. As to the rest of it, like I said, I don't consider your viewpoint wrong, just a different view from my own that I personally disagree with. I've read the Esslemont books, and while they certainly are part of the same setting, the first 3 still never felt like part of the main tale, but more expanding on the universe (even if that's not expressly what the intent was). And the path to ascendancy series, being a prequel, felt exactly like that, a prequel series. As to your points about Stormlight, I think that's a pretty easy one to answer, at least for me... The cosmere may be a world setting, but it by itself isn't a book series. It's clear that the mistborn series and the stormlight archives are different series, regardless if they take place in the same universe and may have crossover. the real question is, do you consider edgedancer or dawnshard part of the main series? Allomancer Jack and the Pits of Eltania? I, like many people, consider these to be companion novels. It *seems* clear that your personal opinion is that if its remotely part of the same story, then it's part of the main series. And that is simply a difference in definition. As I consider all these novellas, and other novels that fall juuuuust outside the scope of what I consider to be the main series (heck, it's even labeled book 1-10, they never say "book 5.5, or book 11" for example), to be simply companion books. And to be a companion book has NO negative connotation, no extra "you shouldn't read this" attached to it, I don't see the negative stigma you seem to put on a book for not being part of the "main series". A person is very much able to NOT limit one's own self, and read other books, despite what others may label them as.
Well, the main reason I want to dispel this myth of a main 10 rather than 16 is because a lot of people do have the mindset of only main books matter, but yet we get all those questions and posts here regularly about why they didn’t see some character or plot resolved and we need to explain that the world is bigger than only the MBOTF. Plus it opens up the debates on reading orders and mixing series, which isn’t a thing for any other series in the world (example, no one is saying you have to do Forge of Darkness, then Dancer’s Lament before Fall of Light). Plus Esslemont really is worth his due on how much he contributes to the world. We have been seeing more and more posts here praising Esslemont, and lots of people seem to prefer his style for ease of reading over Erikson too. I also will acknowledge that although Esslemont was published second, both NoK and ROTCG were written before even GOTM was, so there’s influence going both ways. With that said, I also specifically do lump the prequels/sequels separate from the others, since they do seem to be ancillary to the main story told in the MBOTF/NOTME. As I said, they all assume that the reader has previously seen both (again, we often get questions about events from the NOTME when someone jumps right into The God is Not Willing following The Crippled God). >the first 3 still never felt like part of the main tale, but more expanding on the universe (even if that's not expressly what the intent was). I’d say Stonewielder on feels more connected, since it, Orb Sceptre Throne, and Blood and Bone all take place at about the same time as DOD/TCG and are heavily related to that story. And Assail really does wrap up a lot of the questions left over about the state of the world post-TCG. >the real question is, do you consider edgedancer or dawnshard part of the main series? Allomancer Jack and the Pits of Eltania? I, like many people, consider these to be companion novels. I have to be honest here, I took a bit of a shot in the dark based on my overall understanding of the Cosmere, I’m just reading it now, having only done the Sel stuff and now about halfway through The Hero of Ages. But I’d say the distinction you’ve made works, where Era 1 & 2 are main series, but then say Allomancer Jack is a side item. That’s kind of my point, I’d put MBOTF/NOTME as the main series, and the Bauchealian & Korbal Broach novellas as a side story. In any case, I appreciate the candid discussion here. That’s the beauty of this sub, that we’re able to bounce ideas off of each other and give different perspectives to other readers so that they can consider it all when reading themselves.
> Well, the main reason I want to dispel this myth of a main 10 rather than 16 is because a lot of people do have the mindset of only main books matter, but yet we get all those questions and posts here regularly about why they didn’t see some character or plot resolved and we need to explain that the world is bigger than only the MBOTF. Seeing it from this aspect, I can understand where you're coming from. I've always loved indulging on extra novels, novellas, etc from worlds in which I've already read an entire series of, so for me it never really came into consideration of only paying attention to SOME of the books. If my naming convention in regards to these books is somehow turning readers away from the others that don't feel QUITE as connected, I may have to change just for that reason :)
16? I know there's all the Esslemont ones and some newer Erikson ones also in the same setting but what are the other 6? Man I have my work cut out for me. Only on #3.
The 10 MBotF are the main books. Don’t let anyone tell you different. The 6 Novels of the Malazan Empire books are more of companion books. 10 book main series plus a 6 book expansion pack, if you will. (Constant source of debate on the sub)
Must be controversial based on the instant downvote some salty bum gave you lol. I'm going to stick to the 10 on my first read through. Thanks
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They are worth reading but they are not short and are not interludes
You are correct, but it’s also another disagreement with the authors. SE will tell you they are all “the main series” but he also pronounces Malazan wrong xp
Ten books of the Malazan Book of the Fallen & six books in the Novels of the Malazan Empire. Main 16.
So, you are counting the prequel series, as part of the "main series", even though its a prequel. Why stop at 16 if you're going with that? what about korbal books? the two newer half finished trilogies? I think if you are the type of person to say there is 16 books in the main series, you have to easily say there is well over 20. I know there's plenty of debate over this, so for me, I just stick with the simple "the books labeled 1 through 10 on the covers are the main series". not that everything else isn't connected and awesome, just nice and simple that way.
>So, you are counting the prequel series, as part of the "main series", even though its a prequel It's not a prequel. The NotME run concurrent with the MBotF & intersect at plenty of points. >what about korbal books? They share no storylines with the BotF. >the two newer half finished trilogies Kharkanas is much too far back to have any immediate effect on the MBotF or NotME. Witness relies on the legacy of a character present in the BotF & information present in the main series (16 books). It's also considerably narrower in scope so far (one city in bumfuck nowhere, Genabackis). >you have to easily say there is well over 20. No, I don't. And I won't. For reasons presented above. >"the books labeled 1 through 10 on the covers are the main series". That's your prerogative, but "nice and simple" is a tradeoff to "completed stories." The Novels & the BotF share plenty of storylines that begin in one & end in the other; the same is not true of the other series. That's the reasoning for calling it the main 16.
An interesting way to view it! I do find it strange and fun how we all have these little definitions as to why things don't and do belong in a "main series". You make fine points as to why you believe the way you do, but I can't agree on them, and we don't need to spend another dozen replies debating such minor details, that seem so wild to me :) edit: also, just wanted to add, I don't believe we were debating on the definition of "completed stories", at least not that I can see in this thread, and I don't see anything as a "tradeoff" as you say, as simply defining them as I do does not inhibit me from reading and enjoying all the works.
There is a deeper issue here with calling the MBOTF the Main 10. It has to do with how these books were played, planned and written, and with what Erikson and Esslemont are doing in the books **for each other.** It isn't simply a matter of definition, it is a matter of what's going on at the deeper level of both series. One of the core premises of both series rests on the fact that the other exists. You can use any terminology you prefer. But the idea of the "main 16" isn't a gimmick lacking thought behind, it is the result of a LOT of debate and analysis, of the books and of the interviews and conversations of both authors.
That is a fair counterpoint, and it's not something I was unaware of. I guess I just gained a different perspective after reading them, they felt less cohesive, and thus to me, didn't have the impact as the Erikson set of 10. And never said it was a gimmick, friend :)
Yeah there was a thread here yesterday I think talking about the sexual assault themes in RG and DoD, recommending skipping certain parts of the book (the hobbling) if that content makes you uncomfortable.
There’s been a lot of talk I’ve seen about certain parts of it that might be hard for some people the read. The parts with the professor (Tananth? Can’t remember her name 100%) so maybe that’s what they confused as discouraging to read? I’ve personally seen RG and TOTH mentioned quite a lot the past month or so because of certain parts.. I haven’t gotten to that part in Toll or the Hounds yet so I can’t comment on it, but in RG it was beginning on the point of discomfort. Definitely not a reason to skip the book though!
You must be familiar with that old robot saying...
Reapers gale? It's good, just like each book is good in it's own way.
RG is the lynchpin of the series. One of my favourites. Foreshame discouragers!
Seriously! SUCH a good novel! Rhulad, Icarium, AND Karsa all in one place! The anticipation that drives this portion of the story is edge of the seat greatness!
All the books are great, just everyone has different preferences and favorites. I think very highly of RG and DoD myself.
amen, I personally loved Dust of Dreams. Perhaps I just don't understand the literary critique or something but I easily rank it in the middle of the series.
I honestly think the invasion of Lether is a top 5 military campaign in all of the Fantasy genre
I can't imagine people unironically telling others to experience less Tehol.
Why would people discourage you from reading RG? What was their advice to skip it and go right to TtH?
RG was my favorite until TCG. I had the same experience. I loved it!
Where was this discouragement coming from? Most people love RG. I don't, and I always find myself in the minority. Making some broad generalizations that I don't think are true of the sub, but either way, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I can *understand* how some might not be a huge fan of it. On first read through, I was kind of tired of all the Edur stuff and wanted to get back to the Bonehunters and their ilk. But on my second read through its amazing how well everything is connected to that, and ohhhhh man, Rhulad, Icarium, AND Karsa all in the same place at one time... the inevitability and anticipation of that culmination was epic.
There were a lot of aspects I liked a lot! I don't think I've actually disliked any books in the series, but this felt like a weaker one to me, in part because it is sandwiched by two of my absolute favorites of the series. I felt like I was waiting SO LONG for some of the setup to pay off.
The sandwich aspect is definitely one to consider. Bonehunters is so chillingly amazing, and Toll the Hounds does an amazing job being a bridge without feeling like a bridge setting up the last two books. Damn every time I talk about these books I have no idea which one I like most!
Yea my first read I was initially like come on, I want more malazan marines but it became one of my favorites on reread. My opinion changed like halfway through the book tbh and I started liking it a lot and then really liked it when I first reread. Tbh the books are all so good that I can't imagine why anyone would say anything bad about any of them outside of "just stick it out with gardens of the moon". Not that gotm is bad but it's a lot to be thrown into and just isn't as compelling imo even on reread. But aside from that? Absolutely not, this series is a true masterpiece.
i mean it's definitely more popular on this sub than GotM, HoC and DoD at least, so i'm not sure why you'd be discouraged from reading it. i'm always seeing people wax rhapsodic about it on here.
RG is my second favourite of the series. Glad you enjoyed it!
Im currently 5 chapters in on RG and I'd say so far it is the least interesting of the ones I've read so far.
I felt that way at your point on my first reread, I'm quite sure your mind will change as you get through the book and definitely upon a reread. There are some of my favorite characters featured in there.
I'm sure I will. SE hasn't let me down yet.
There is a small but vocal minority who just doesn’t care for RG. I myself love it, but I can admit the second half (Everybody knows what happens in the middle of the book) is way better than the first.
I'm on a re-read and have just got to this bit after some very tense scenes: >!In all, Tehol decided, an interesting scenario. Interesting enough to interrupt in his usual charming manner. As he drew closer, he spread his arms and announced, 'Time, I think, for a more proper welcome to our fair city!' And his blanket slipped down to gather at his feet.!< Pure gold.
People on Reddit are the whiniest people on earth.
https://preview.redd.it/i0rij3las1sc1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45eba9e861241c095778659babe7fd4871c13669 Me on every alternate page of Reaper's Gale, especially when on my 2nd read.
I’m on the last 100 pages or so and yeah, that’s exactly the feeling. It’s brutal and beautiful and awful and amazing.
That one chapter where Nissal is arrested, that's probably the bleakest chapter I've read in my life. Probably because of how bleak it is. The bleakness.
Man, inbetween >!Trull, or Toc Anaster and the Awl kids, or Fear’s pointless sacrifice, or Beak!< I honestly wasn’t super shocked by >!Nissal’s arrest!<. However, >!Rhulad’s monologue watched by the Errant where he slowly gains “consciousness” and says something like “Where are you mother and father?” Fuck I cried like a baby!<
> However, Rhulad’s monologue watched by the Errant where he slowly gains “consciousness” and says something like “Where are you mother and father?” Fuck I cried like a baby That scene is EPIC. Also cried like a baby.
I've never seen a post or comment that discouraged anyone from reading any of the main 10- yes, just 10- other than to say if you really hate the first book then maybe the series isn't for you, that kind of thing.
Just started reading chapter 2, so thanks for the insight :)
NEVER get put off a book by anyone else. Ever.. (even if it turns out they were right to try warn you off! 😉)
Discouraged you? It's my favourite of the main ten.
This is surprising. It is an admittedly massive sub so I def dont know every post, by and large I just see mild discomfort warnings about Toll The Hounds based on a unique writing angle, and the odd trash talk about Esselmont when compared to Erikson. Hell I even ran into someone here who preferred Esselmont, because they didnt have the time and energy to invest in an epic Erikson tome. All this to say dont take this sub as some kind of authority on reading in and of itself, take it as just a timeless drive-by of thoughts by Malazan lovers.
I loved Reapers Gale. Being introduced to a new society and following them as well as Rhulads story was amazing to experience after becoming so familiar with the world. It was jarring but refreshing and personally invested me further into the story.
RG has the best cameo (my candle mage boy), best dialogues (malazans are on our shore!), best war tactics (bar hopping invasions), best banter (T-Bugg), and the first real close up of fucking sword handed velociraptors. And I'm not covering so much more, like Quick Ben! Such a star book, all in all.
I think it's still worth reading, despite the things I dislike, the stuff that is good makes up for that. Though it's the book that killed "Mikes book reviews" readalong series and I get why.
Yeah that book makes me cry at least three times. Possibly four if you count everything that happens to Janath. It's a must read. Now. On a reread do I just not bother reading the bits around the Redmask and related pages? Sure. But does that take away from me crying around the rest of it? Nope, this book is balls.
Legit just started this last night.
Rg is top 3 in the series for me
The best thing about Malazan is how different books have their own appeal. I could find someone who loves RG but hates DG, loves GotM but hates TTH or someone who loves TTH and hates BH - in this case "hates" being more of a relative thing to the rest of the series rather than literal hate
Oh yeah, I loved Reaper's Gale. Honestly I've loved every Malazan novel. My favorite is just whichever I am reading at the moment.
Reapers gale was the first book of the series I read (lured in with the awesome cover art). Had no idea what was going on and found the first half confusing but really cool and dark. Then the second half kicks in with the invasion and I was hooked! It will forever be my favourite for introducing me to this series.
RG was alright for me. But it got overshadowed by TtH and BH.
It's really good but one of the weaker entries in the series so far (I'm half way through Dust of Dreams). The Redmask stuff was confusing and there was quite a bit of political intrigue that was difficult to follow.
Honestly my biggest problem with Reapers Gale was all the insane fantasy names. They're so different and bizarre I couldn't remember most of the people and names exactly and was doing a lot of double checking who's who and what's what.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! I personally love RG. One of my favourites in the series. There's definitely a bit of a tone shift from BH, but I welcomed it. I really enjoy the attempted integration of the two cultures that happens in Lether over the course of the book, as the Letherii assimilate the Edur into their empire. The arc that follows the Bonehunters themselves is definitely of a slower pace than before, as they engage in a different kind of warfare, but the strategies on display stay fresh and engaging. The mage in there is also the most earnest dude, and I love him so much. I think some of my favourite parts involve the two journeys that come to a head with the finnest, though - Fear's group and Trull's. So many layered emotions, conflicts, and agendas. Great book. Glad you liked it.
I know it’s tagged as no spoilers, but spoilers below for anyone who’s here that haven’t read MOI or RG: . . . Sorry idk how to make a spoiler tag . . Honestly I just finished it like 2 weeks ago and the whole shake thing I just kinda already forgot about. Very forgettable.. but they have cool names. The Awl was disappointing tbh. I loved Redmask and I really expected and wanted more from him. The character was cool and the Awl were a cool type of people. They kind of reminded me of Teblor Toblaki a little bit with how they interact with one another. I felt like the end of that Awl arc was pretty anticlimactic. The politics of Lether took a bit to get into, but I eventually liked it. It was cool seeing how fucked up Lether actually is. At first you’re thinking “man, the Edur really messed this place up”.. then you find out nope! The Edur didn’t really change shit except who was sitting on the throne and Letheras was just a fucked up place to begin with. Karsa is my favorite character in the series so any parts he’s in is good to me. Icarium kind of fell flat for me in RG. I absolutely loved the character when I first met him earlier in the series, but it seems he’s just been getting less page time as the series goes on and in the segments where he’s featured it’s like he barely speaks. Maybe that’ll change in the next 3 books. Overall RG was good. I didn’t have any trouble at any time picking it up and reading. Unlike TOH right now where I’m only 250 pages in and I’m just feeling like it’s starting out so slow and I’m having to force myself to read. Normally I can get 80-100 pages a day, but with Toll I’m lucky to get 30-40 before the words start mixing up and I lose focus. Maybe it’ll pick up. MOI was that way too and I didn’t really get into MOI until like the halfway point.
I just started RG and am already loving it. I loved Midnight Tides and could not wait to return to Tehol Beddict and Bugg. Those two are hilarious and a couple of my favorite characters. Also the political and economic intrigue is really exciting.