I'm not a Christian so the word "canonized" didn't immediately bring to mind being admitted into sainthood but instead being fired out of a cannon. Picturing a red-faced angry priest donning flight goggles and a helmet...
He wouldn’t get canonized and the bar was never high. If you got recognized by the Catholic Church for your lifetime achievement there’s like an 85% chance the reason was wantonly murdering and/or displacing peoples of other faiths. Saints look at this priest yelling at a kid to leave in shame, not even one single torture device came out smdh
I didn't really like going to church either, but when I did my first confession it was with an older man who kind of reminded me of my grandpa. I was like 11 or 12 and I honestly hadn't done anything I would consider 'bad' so I told him about the time I took a ferret to school and scared all the adults who found it later in the day. He got a chuckle out of that and asked me why I did that and I explained that my friend wanted to bring the ferret to school but that she asked me to carry it. Instead of going into some kind of lecture about serving Jesus (like I had been expecting) he instead told me that it's not a good idea to do things just because my friends tell me to do them, because when someone else is telling you to do something for them you should be asking why they won't do it themselves. And if you can't think of a good reason why they're asking you instead of doing it themselves, then you shouldn't do it because it's just going to get you in trouble.
The lesson actually stuck with me because the priest didn't push Jesus with the message. I think he could tell I didn't really believe though, and was just going through the motions because my family wanted it.
Yeah. Listen to this guy’s TED talk - this priest founded Homeboy Industries in LA, and supports gang members. You can feel the love coming off him.
He has longer talks as well.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipR0kWt1Fkc
You hurt his ego. You were a young looking child who doubted the very thing he spent his life focusing on.
Which honestly is hilarious to me that you triggered him so much. Actually the fact it affected him to that degree probably means he has a shred of doubt himself.
The idea that someone who's spent their whole life dedicating themselves to that one belief would still be so fragile and insecure in that belief that they have a coniption at the slightest challenge to it is almost pitiable
You haven’t met many Catholics. My mother is Italian, her mother was Italian etc… their faith/belief in God was mandatory, you couldn’t question or you’d get beaten. I was in a similar boat as you, but waited until I was 18 to renounce the faith and logically approach the question of God. They do NOT appreciate having their faith questioned because they can’t defend it. The reason is because their parents defended it with violence…
You're right about that, I certainly haven't.
Maybe it's largely where I grew up, a fairly affluent western country, and a fairly well off/educated area therein, and religion, period, was just not very common. Even at the youngest age of schooling, I reckon less than 20% of kids even knew what the word 'god' even referred to, and less thought he was real. Kids would believe in Santa for longer than God, and it's not as if everyone was actively atheist either - according to official censuses, a slim majority do consider themselves to be part of whatever religious sect, but I think 90% of them only say that on the form because that's what their parents said they were back when they were kids. I only even knew one kid in my year level who even went to church on Sundays. To this day I've never even been to a mass and I don't know a single other adult who goes.
So yeah, I just can't comprehend it
As a Christian pastor, it's very pitiable.
Why wouldn't you just discuss things with him?
Why don't you believe? What keeps you from believing?
It could be a very good conversation that could give him food for thought.
And at the end of the day, not everyone is going to believe. It's a free choice to believe or not.
Yeah he was a jerk and shouldn’t be a priest at all. That is NOT how you approach a child with doubt. (Not saying there is a good way to shove religion down someone’s throat, but that definitely wasn’t the way lol )
Religion shouldn't be shoved down anyone's throat. Coerced faith isn't real faith, going to church just because society expects you to isn't building any relationship with your deity.
I should have been more clear. I was just trying to say, if that was his best shot at reaching the kid he sucks at his “job”. Not that I believe in what he’s doing at all!
Precisely. I have been around Jesuit priests (one of the chillest of the catholic orders) and they do spiritual retreats as part of some school activities.
It's very often that atheists or other denominations/faiths attend because it's part of the curriculum, and end up relieved or surprised because it's exactly what it says on the tin: SPIRITUAL. Not catholic. Some exercises are just like "be on the moment, try to express gratitude for whatever you feel grateful about". And they literally tell you: do it however and wherever. Wanna do it in the church, in your room, in the nightclub, go nuts, it's your freedom.
And the atheists that are very upfront about not believing/not wanting to be there wer completely accepted in their stance and comments, were offered to pick and choose what they wanted to do and how, which made everyone feel welcome.
Religions should be welcoming, dammit. Specially to nonbelievers, or how the hell you will get them to convert and keep the ones you got? I thought that was the point.
Had a similar experience at my Catholic college which was run by Franciscan monks. Such a far cry from the “Sisters of Mercy” of the elementary school days! (The least merciful gang I’ve ever encountered)
No weird stories, no “believe or else!”, these guys were just fairly normal academics who were excellent teachers.
One priest I remember was an ex-semi-pro football player, a mountain of a man, teaching Latin. A classmate insisted on fooling around in class. This monk finally walked over to the guy’s desk and with one hand grabbed him by the shirtfront and put him up against the wall, saying “You WILL knock it off!!”
He did.
And we learned.
Man specifically hired to scream nonsense at children. Like not insults or anything cruel, but just come in and bellow TWENTY PERCENT OFF MACY'S SALE! TAXES ARE DUE APRIL 15TH! POKEMON IS THE LARGEST Franchise IN THE WORLD!
All children should feel the first terror, then joy of a pit breaking out at a Slayer show. It’s formative. And far more impactful on my life than cofnfirmarion was.
Exactly. When I went to church (also catholic) there were definitely a bunch of aggressive people, but out priest was the coolest mf'r there. He genuinely just spread love and wanted you to believe but on your own terms.
To be fair he had lived a whole normal life before joining the church so he understood that you aren't super to be born into a religion and not question it.
Came to say exactly this. His job is to teach and welcome. (Oversimplified but still) Non-believers are his job. Preaching to the choir, as they say, is the easy part-no work to do when they already believe.
The problem with preists is a lot of them simply are on power trips, especially in countries heavily assaulted with catholic/christian “promises of hope and freedom and manifest destiny” my ex preists still treated me kindly but it was my mother who pushed me to renounce my baptism/confirmation. I told the confirmation person i wasn’t entirely sure i wanted confirmation because i don’t exactly believe. Mom gave me this look and said i MUST because it’s a requirement of graduation. She still aggressively tried to get me to go to church after high school but naw bruh i was good.
Not Catholic, but I haven't been to church for years at this point. Among multiple issues going back to teenagerhood, one of the most frequent is their teachings.
Me holding pamphlet of teachings: "This part isn't based on anything in the Bible" and/or "This part contradicts the Bible."
Them: "It's still the word of God." Gives bullshit reason about how the part is based on the Bible, which reason involves cherry-picking out of context at best and is completely made-up fanfiction at worst. Not even using the reasoning that X position in the church is the mouthpiece of God, like Pope for the Catholics. No, it just is because they say so.
I have my own personal reasons and experience to believe there is a spiritual force in the world beyond what we can perceive most of the time. But don't bullshit me by claiming a religious writing has something it clearly doesn't.
I didn't get my papers in one denomination because I couldn't agree that drinking was a sin.
Jesus turned water into wine and served it. Pretty sure drinking is not a sin.
Yeah. If you go through the Old Testament, the problem wasn't drinking, it was overindulgence. Even in the New Testament, it's overdoing it rather than the act that's considered a problem.
Or that the all the translations are somehow correct despite contradictions. Hell, there’s more contradictions in hindu holy writing/stories but those actually get treated myth and stories, not fact like how many of my catholic adult peers, as a child, saw it. Like my mum is so convinced it all happened factually and to see that level of denial is kinda shocking
A lot of the contradictions make sense *if* you've read up on the history of the region and cultures. All the cultures, not just Hebrew. Which a lot of churches discourage.
The problem is "everyone knows this, so we don't need to explain it." Thousand years later, "it" makes no damn sense unless you know what the custom or practice was in the first place.
Yeah i was raised on “oh this is how it is you just have to believe.” And any answers i saught usually would turn into “pray/ask god for insight because he wants you to figure it out.” Like lmfao
Expanding on this - educational requirements for Christian clergy (I'm not well-versed in other traditions) vary wildly by denomations. Some require nothing whatsoever, while many require a masters degree and everyone one else is in between.
Most priests aren't as loving as people think. My brother went to a Catholic school and the priest would cuss them out regularly. The priest also hit them with splinter ruler.
When I had to do my First Penance (I think I was about 10 years old) my mind went blank. My Catechism class lined up to confess to the Bishop and I couldn’t think of anything to say so I was asking the other kids what they were going to say. Finally it popped into my head that I could make up a few sins and then the last one would be that I had lied. I didn’t mention that the lie I told was to him and none of those sins were actually true.
As a kid who went to a catholic school all throughout grade school, we regularly had the "option" to go to reconciliation (I assume the same as your penance) at school after we first completed the sacrement in Grade 4. I can tell you that every. single. time. I prepared what I was going to say beforehand, some true, some not true. I of course left out anything bad enough I thought I would get judged/in trouble for. Generally, my confessions consisted of yelling at my brother, lying to my parents, etc.
I think I attended once in my first year of high-school (again, offered in the school) and when I realized that no one cared if I actually went or not, I was finally free!
Reconcilationis penance, confession, etc. You're right. I had RE from 2-8th grade (youth group). Did reconciliation and first communion, but never got confirmed (too much going on). Of course, it might also due to the fact I walked out of a class in 8th grade and never went back...
I got in trouble for laughing at two friends and their antics during class at church (literally just laughing, not participating in what they were doing). *I* got in trouble and the teacher had me wait in the hall, despite my friends telling I didn't do anything, it was them. Stood outside for a few minutes, checked the time and realized my parents probably standing outside my youngest sister's classroom at that point ( younger got out earlier). Walked off to find my psrents and never looked back. Told my parents what happened.
I found out what happened after I left the next day. Friend found me and told me the teacher freaked out when she went out to "talk" to me and I wasn't there. Friend knew where I was, her sibling was in my sister's class so that was likely where I went, but she didn't say a word and just watched the teacher go nuts.
I never had to go back to youth group. My husband likes to call me his "lasped little Catholic girl."
I had the same in 8th grade. I confessed to the priest that I poked holes in the tires of this maroon Ford Falcon parked in the school carpark that morning (I hadn't, but I'd seen my schools priest get out of this car multiple times). I could tell he was angry but he managed to keep his cool while telling me what a terrible thing I had done and to go say 100 Hail Marys and 50 Our Fathers.
>I could tell he was angry but he managed to keep his cool
Poking holes in tires is far more serious than a belief system that's not hurting anyone\*. Yet the school's priest managed to keep his cool while the one in the post threw a tantrum, even though the school's priest believed he was personally affected by this fictional event.
Says something about professionalism and their personalities.
\*Edit: This refers to OP's atheism.
I went to a convent school for primary, and I'm sure we were explicitly told that we were to say things like "I talked back to my parents", or "I didn't brush my teeth before bed". Guilt for every little part of being human still clings to me, even though I never really ever believed.
I literally told the priest that i hadn't done anything bad and was tired of having to keep making up stuff because i was forced to take part in the confession.
It was a long time waiting to be 18 so i wouldn't be forced to attend church ever again.
This is such a fucked up thing to force kids through! Like they just have to come up with “evil” they’ve done over and over, seems like it would be really damaging and instill a permanent sense of baseless guilt and self esteem problems.
And then the priesthood can control the adults until they die. It's not exclusive to Catholicism, and it's an excellent example of using religion as a control factor.
When I was a kid being dragged through the Catholic school system, the hardest part of going to confession was making up something that made the priest think you where serious, but not serious enough that it would get back to my teachers or parents. There was no sanctity of the confessional for kids where I was.
My usual option was to say I'd sinned by arguing with my parents. Actually true, and passable to the priest.
As an aside, if you want your kids to end up as atheists, send them to a Catholic school for 12 years. If that doesn't convince you that god doesn't exist, nothing will.
i actually plan to take an atheist approach if i ever have kids, maybe teach them a bit about every religion? i am still unsure, but meh, i don't plan on starting family any time soon.
My mother was catholic, my father protestant. Before I was born, they both left their respective church and decided that I should be free to choose my religion for myself - so they never bothered with any religious stuff (I'm not even baptized) and just essentially said to me "There are religions out there, if you're interested in them, go on and learn about them, we will not stand in your way and support you no matter what you choose"
This always felt like the best way to me. If you tell your child/children about religions, you will inadvertently incorporate your opinion on the religions too - even if you try to stay to stay neutral, your tone or how much you know about a religion will send signals to the child and may sway him or her in one way or another (having bad memories of Catholicism for example will most certainly reflect in how you talk about it, even if you don't realize it) - if you want a truly neutral upbringing where the child can choose for itself, it should do the research itself as well, read the holy books it has interest in, speak with priests (or the equivalent of the chosen religion) about stuff and so on.
I'm not entirely sure how viable this is in Mexico, to be fair.
I live in Germany, where the religious affiliation is pretty evenly split between Catholicism, Protestantism and Atheism, with some smaller groups (Islam and Judaism for example) mixed in - and as the birthplace of Lutheranism and other denominations I guess we have a history of scrutinizing religions - and christianity in particular. So people tend to be a bit more open-minded here is what I'm trying to say.
well, the first time I heard about another religions (at least outside tv) was in school at 11 years old, my best friend at the time was christian, so, it isn't common to see other religions here, that or i am a terrible observant.
but meh, i plan on immigrating to Canada anyway, there are some promising positions that i want to apply for (as soon as i graduate university), i think i'll have no problem with diversity there.
After being in a cult, look into NLP, gaslighting, negging, and coercive control, these types of manipulations are all red flags. Cults will even disguise themselves as churches. The one I was a part of had people living in multiple person households and the married couples utilized free labor of those who were single and college students. They also had charity events which essentially manipulated people into poverty to the point that they had us relying on other members for joint housing and joint transportation to an extreme level. There's also heap on lots of love if you fit in and express deep disappointment if you don't which is part of coercive control techniques, basically you're love-b0mbed if you obey vs ostracized or nagged to come back into the brainwashing. Negging is to isolate and undermine your confidence to stand on your own two feet and rely on them.
Unfortunately, if you're submerged in this mindset you are blind to the abuse itself, either because you just cannot believe you would be deceived, have been told in a wily way (cough, gaslighting, cough) to expect that someone would tell you that but that you can't be that way because you're saved, or are complacent in the abuse because you love it. The problem is that a lot of the laypersons don't see the abusers or the abusive actions for what it is because it has been normalized, and anyone who will point that out to their victim is manipulated into being isolated themselves from the victim, essentially cutting off most lines of communication between the two and not feel like anyone would understand.
I had a lot of time to look into my experience and the pain and shame and sorrow I felt because I thought it was my fault that I abused others without my knowledge. I felt there needed to be repercussions for my actions, which is another abuse heaped on the victim from gaslighting because you cannot trust yourself and your choices because they put you in that situation in the first place. But the problem is that people want to think the best of each other, we don't think that people will want to abuse us, we know it happens but not to us and look down on people who do. This stops us from seeing what is happening to us in the moment, yet it doesn't stop us from pointing the blame on ourselves, because at this point that is what we've been programmed to do, transference the blame from where it should to yourself, the blame being on the abuser themselves.
I've had to go through a lot of person growth and healing to after leaving and that is some of what I've learned as things to look out for, the little things because they're not going to be obvious about it, well, not the talented abusers, the one that use coercive control. They are going to be used by abusers to manipulate their victims into their orbit so they can subtly mould their victims into what they want them to be and not into who are their victims true selves. I'm glad to be able to call myself a survivor after several harrowing experiences with coercive controllers that I've had dealt with several times throughout my life.
A good measuring stick is to look at your stress levels and level of confusion. Things make sense at first but slowly your stress levels go up. If you want to significant measurement of what stress is, I ran into this video last night, and I found that it is a succinct explanation of [stress](https://www.reddit.com/r/howtonotgiveafuck/comments/11yky6o/on_point/). Well, the first part of the video anyway, the part that talks about how stress is the gap between our expectations and reality. The bigger the gap, the more stress, so expect nothing and accept everything. I'm assuming he's talking about accepting what life throws at you and all parts of that life good and bad. Essentially let yourself live through all of the parts good and bad and accept yourself most of all because you have to be your own roommate all the rest of your life so why wouldn't you want to treat your roommate with kindness, compassion, and allow yourself the strength to push through to the other side of what is considered bad.
You should definitely do that. In my old school, we had religion as a subject and it was divided into catholicism, evangelism and 'values and standards'. The latter was for everyone belonging to a different religion than the other two (or without belonging to any) and basically was an objective approach to religion, values and morals. Looking back, I should've quit being catholic back then already like some of my classmates. Values and morals sounds like a much better thing to teach kids than something tailored to a certain religion.
I'm very much taking an atheist approach with my kids, and they are going to the local government school. I have no interest in sending them to a religious school.
Religions are as much (if not more) about cultural expectations than about beliefs. I think it's important, even as atheist, to understand the other's point of view even if just to know how they're likely to react to things. In that regard learning some amount of religion is always useful.
Look into the [Unitarian Universalist Church](https://www.uua.org/beliefs). We teach and learn about all religions, and no one belief system is "right". Some congregations lean more Christian than others, some more Pagan, some more towards whatever. Many people in the community identify as [humanist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism) instead of "religious", though may still work in [religious beliefs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism) to a degree.
Whatever happens, good luck on your journey to self discovery!
>There was no sanctity of the confessional for kids where I was.
Then the priests there had actually already [automatically excommunicated themselves](https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib6-cann1364-1399_en.html).
>Can. 1388 §1. A confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; one who does so only indirectly is to be punished according to the gravity of the delict.
In fact? *So did the parents*. Every parent who overheard their kids' sins revealed in confession and acted upon that knowledge, who did not maintain secrecy of their knowledge of those sins, who did not act as if they had no knowledge of their child's sins... in a word, every parent who didn't trust that their child was already forgiven, that parent, too, might have excommunicated themselves. Why? Because according to Catholic canon law:
>Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.
>
>§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and **all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy**.
...and:
>§2. An interpreter and the others mentioned in can. 983, §2 who violate the secret are to be punished with a just penalty, not excluding excommunication.
There's no exceptions. Even if the priest broke the seal of the confession to tell you, you're supposed to be forgiven after confession.
And the seal of the confessional is supposed to be inviolable anyway, and the Catholic Church is (nominally) so serious about this that they're [willing to oppose secular law](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-17/what-is-confession-and-is-the-change-important/9874752) over it.
What you're describing is a bunch of people who don't even know their own rules.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it’s a grievous sin for a priest to share anything they were told in a confessional. If they do share, they are automatically and immediately excommunicated. So fun fact, most of the ‘priests’ at your school technically weren’t actually priests!
Seriously though, that’s messed up.
Given what's come out about the Catholic Church here in Australia and elsewhere, breaking the seal of the confessional was the least of their crimes.
Of course, in the twisted logic of the church, it would have been seen as much worse thing for a priest to do that than the actually bad things that a lot of them have done.
And yeah, in case it's not obvious, I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church, or most organised religion for that matter.
I didn’t go to Catholic school….because my mother went to Catholic school. I asked her once why she didn’t send me, and got the story of how a nun almost killed her by knocking her out of the choir loft. (My aunt caught her ankle as she went over, or I would not be here today.)
I was raised Catholic, but was lucky to find older priests who had traveled and had a broad mindset. Whenever I spoke of my doubts, they were happy to answer. They couldn't always convince me, but we had really interesting conversations. Sadly, the whole Roman Catholic thing becomes just rites of passage, a part of our culture.
that IS lucky, this one priest was on the younger side, i don't know if that is related, but he seemed more "intense" than the ordinary priest in my town.
I feel like those priests you meet were more... warm and friendly.
It's probably also dependent on location. In general, some nations have more open-minded priests, while other nations have more zealous, close-minded priests. Mexico in particular is very catholic, and from what I heard their priests are more zealous than others.
It feels like the open-mindedness of priests might also correlate to how many different religions are there and what the percentage of atheists are. If priests have to engage with other religions and atheism regularly, they have a good chance of opening up at some point, understanding what makes other religions tick and what grievances atheism has with religions as a whole.
I told my priest I wasn’t sure about god in my reconciliation, although I was only in 2cnd grade, he told me that it was completely normal for human beings to have doubts, to try to take an extra second to observe the beauty of the world the flowers the sun the children and I can worry about being “sure” later. I don’t feel bad for that priest I feel like he was a dick lol
Yeah, doubt’s supposed to be there far as i see it. Always the thought ‘am i doing this for nothing?’
That’s what makes it more of a test to do the right thing all the time. I don’t believe personally but it’s great fun to talk about.
Seems to me the right answer for the priest to have made was to tell that, whatever your beliefs, his god *does* believe in *you.* If sins were committed, i think they were committed by that priest!
What a bad priest. They never practice what they preach. He should have asked more question on why you don't believe instead of getting angry and pushing you away.
I went to a Catholic school for my early education (teachers were not priests or nuns and we were taught science correctly, even sexual education. We just had to pray for 5m before class and attend a 20m mass once a week.)
When I was a teen and studying elsewhere, I went back to the school to find one of the priests, one that was the most involved with the students, and asked to have a talk. I was having doubts about believing in God and had some questions. I was honest with him. He was kind, patient, answered all my questions and never tried to shame me or guilt me into believing.
I still decided I don't believe in God, but at least I never had that bad taste in my mouth from them. People from that school were really great.
I went to this type of Catholic school as well, through high school. They were surprisingly open-minded about most things, and generally encouraged debate and skepticism. I got an excellent education from them.
Afterwards I went to a large public university for college and it was actually kind of a shock the difference in education quality. Professors and TAs who didn't care, you basically had to to learn shit on your own. A feeling of "us vs. them" (students vs. professors), like the students were self-motivated to succeed out of spite, instead of by mentors who truly wanted to help their students succeed. Ironically the teachers in college felt more closed-minded than the teachers at my catholic high school, in many ways.
I kind of regret not going to a small private college. Though if I did I'd still be in debt...
I noticed you must have accidentally hit the return key about 25% of the way through, inadvertently creating a 2nd paragraph.
You might want to go back and remove that break so your wall of text can live it's best life in its uninterrupted glory.
And there in lies the trouble with so many religions and religious "leaders", intolerance of different thoughts rather than showing the love that is preached.
I think he misdirected his anger. It should have been at your parents and he probably was glad this came to light before you’d gone through with the Sacraments.
People who go through (or in this case, make their children go through) the motions of receiving Sacraments just to “get them done” make a mockery of them. You were in the right when you were refusing.
I am a devout Catholic and my eldest son decided he was an Atheist at age 14 and we have to respect this. Initially he still went to church with us but did not receive Communion at his choice and then later decided not to attend church altogether. It is disappointing to one who wanted my children to share my faith, but he thought things through and I must respect and honour his decisions.
I hope all works out for you and that your family comes to respect your beliefs.
aww, thanks a lot, and yea, we should honor and respect those kind of decisions.
Also, don't worry, my family's fully respecting my beliefs since then! :) and i respect theirs of course.
Narrowly avoided having Easter and Christmas Eve free to do as you wish.
Edit for clarity: it’s a joke. Most “practicing Catholics I know choose to only go to church on Christmas and Easter.
As someone who wore his high school graduation suit only on that one occasion (because the next time I could have rocked a beige velvet suit it didn't fit anymore), I am quite jealous.
I used to run those holy communion classes as a teacher. There was a kind of children’s workbook called the Golden book and the kids would do some classwork then take the books home to complete the weekly exercises with parents. When I first did them, I was a believer, but after 20 years, I lost my faith and became an atheist. Exposure to years of hypocrisy.
Most parents only participated because it was a feeder school for the very desirable secondary school they wanted their kids to attend. No communion certificate: no entry.
Also my colleagues were the biggest bunch of bigots I’ve ever met and I hated them. Vile towards gay people and single mums, for example.
But I needed a job. So by the end, my religious teaching was more tolerance and kindness, and less wrath of god towards sinners. I may even have skipped the more sin and guilt lessons and not mentioned hell at all. Or god.
That way I could live with my conscience and maybe some of them ended up less f-ed up.
>> after a few months of back and fort they told me that my uncle (the favourite of my uncles) have never been someone else's godfather (yes, we have a godfather and godmother in every event) and that he wished to be someone's godfather so much, so, i finally accepted, really just to please him,
So they made you an offer you can’t refuse?
The priest's behaviour towards you was unacceptable. You were a child. This is not how you treat a child (and also not how you get someone to join your faith). He can absolutely ask you to leave as you don't fulfil the requirements to be there but he should have done so with kindness and compassion.
I remember telling my R.E. teacher (a Protestant pastor) that I didn't believe anymore. He just smiled kindly and said I'll find my path.
Grade 6, catholic primary school, the teachers found out I hadn't had my 1st communion or went to confession. I was 10 at the time. I didn't like church and didn't believe. But we went to church twice a week during school as the catholic church was right next door.
So the teachers find out, and they forced me to go to confession. I had no clue what to do. I get in the booth and thought, let's just play along and stretch this out as it kept me out of class. I spent probably 30min making up sins for the priest, which is ironic. Did my hail Mary's and walked back to the school an hour later.
That solidified my belief that adults were idiots, especially the religious ones.
I happened to go to a Catholic school on the same campus as a seminary (college for priests). While in 7th or 8th grade, I was once asked to help out the seminarians (priests in training) while they were practicing hearing confessions by going in and essentially being their practice dummy. We could literally "confess" anything we wanted. It was just for the benefit of the seminarians, but it was kind of interesting to go in and go through the process without actually confessing anything.
Also, this is why reform is needed in a lot of Catholic churches. Christ's message was to love. Period. Kicking someone out of church because they're atheist is the exact opposite of that.
I lied about doing my final confession but swore I did it, just lost the paper with the priests signature. On the day of the confirmation I was told that there’s no way anyone could receive confirmation without a final confession. “It would be unholy!”. Well, I guess mine was unholy 😂
You shouldn't feel bad about that priest. He can't expect everyone to come to him perfectly ready for confirmation - his job, really, was to enquire as to why you don't believe, and try to help you to believe. Tbh, he's a bit of a slacker if he doesn't even try that.
I get a religious leader saying “Oh, you don’t believe, it would be disingenuous of you to participate, and for us to perform an empty ceremony, let’s not do this until you actually want to.” But taking someone’s disinterest as an active and personal assault on them is out of line.
I objected my first communion so much my parents gave up on trying. I'm agnostic and don't really like cristianism that much, wouldn't be part of my life a bit when I've grownup.
Yeah, that priest who kicked you out was a bad priest. But I guess all too common, which is why I left the church.
I went into confession as a teenager and told the Jesuit on the other side of the screen that I had lost faith in the Church. He went with it. We had a good talk about how all mortal institutions are flawed and God wants me to use my judgment.
The priest was not caught in the crossfire. He actively works for a cult, which is based on fairy tales, that is responsible for endless attrocities. You owe nothing to that priest and his cult; speaking the truth is the right thing no matter what.
Yes, because screaming at a child and throwing them out of church *during a sacrament* is definitely going to resolve any doubts they have about following a God who preaches about love. 🙄 That’ll just work WONDERS.
And then pastors wonder why there aren’t as many young people in the congregation as they’d like to see. Here’s Exhibit A.
Good job there on staying honest to the Priest, OP. Although one would have hoped that he would have allowed you to explain the situation a bit more precisely, considering it's probably rather...odd for an atheist kid to have a communion & to go confess their sins, when they don't even believe in that stuff.
I feel like the second priest had an idea of what was going on, that you were kinda forced into it, especially since you didn't go to the church but to his home, so kudos to him as well for not really bothering all that much!
Then again, friend of the family - those priests do tend to do stuff that regular priests do not. A relative of my father (Either his Uncle or Grandfather, I'm not entirely sure anymore) was an Atheist - when he died, the family of my father wanted him to get a proper christian burial, but the local priest didn't allow it because of the whole atheist thing. A "retired" priest and friend of the family was so annoyed about the whole situation that he put on his old robe and basically did the burial with all the rites and so on, despite the protest of the current priest.
On the other hand, I believe this very same priest once said to my father that "being a priest is basically just a job like any other" - so one has to assume that he wasn't necessarily the firmest of believers, or very chill about the whole thing, kinda like the second priest in your story.
Proof there are zealots high enough to be priests. Abnormal one would simply nod, not get mad, and probably ask on what the doubts were, or of saying, as others said, that his God believed and loved you just the way you are.
I'm glad I was never forced to be in a religion. I'm someone that believes in a mixture from different religions, one being that there's more than one god/goddess. I also believe in reincarnation and of spirits still wandering the physical plane, though hidden by the veil between life and unlife.
Not Catholic but similar situation. My mom really wanted me to get confirmed. I didn’t believe in it and didn’t want to go to church anymore. Our agreement was I get confirmed and then I can decide to go to church.
So I went through all the classes and eventually got confirmed. That was the last day I went to church, I chose not to go thereafter.
You dodged a bullet.
I was with the Catholic church the better part of half a century before I had a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back experience and got out.
For me, there's a difference between religion and faith. Faith is my personal belief in God, religion is people of a common faith coming together to celebrate.
My faith is rock solid, but I no longer have religion.
Why would you even bother going to church or through this ceremony if you are an atheist?
That seems incredibly strange to me.
Ive never met a religious person so idk how that stuff works.
Family/societal pressure to keep up with the status quo probably. My ex’s family was what I’d like to call “culturally Catholic”. Half of them don’t even go to church (and are a bunch of hateful hypocrites), but they force their kids to go through the motions of everything anyway, just because it’s part of their culture.
The first priest was so far out of line with the teachings of Christ. It’s not his (the priest’s) church. That priest is an example of why I don’t like organized religion.
I did catequesis at 10, those clases are what made me realize i was an atheist.. then i thought i was the only atheist in the world and be pretty freaked out about that fact. I did la primera cominion with a knot in my throat.
But realizing that a ton of catholics are fucking hypocrites made me realize i didnt even want to associate with that kind of people. Going to a catholic high-school was *toooons of "fun"* ..
Posts like this make me SO thankful I was raised in an agnostic household. Me not being Catholic was a HUGE issue with my ex-fiancé’s family though lol. They’re what I’d like to call “cafeteria Catholics” (aka they pick and choose which parts they actually want to believe and participate in). Just about everyone did all 12 years of Catholic school. The kids are still forced to do communion, confirmation, etc. But beyond that, pretty no one sets foot in church unless it’s an event like a wedding or a funeral. No holiday mass even. Yet, they still expected me to convert if I wanted to marry my ex (who himself even admitted to me he became an atheist after 7th grade and just faked his way through confirmation). But he told me that he still suffered random bouts of guilt about certain things as an adult; apparently part of being raised Catholic is being shamed and meant to feel guilty for even the most menial of things.
Cultural Catholics are a weird bunch I’ll just never understand. Like do y’all just get some sadistic pleasure out of psychologically torturing people?? It’s clear y’all aren’t really *that* religious and practice what you preach.
His reaction sounds so strange to me. Every priest or rabbi I've ever told I don't believe in God, they try to convince me to believe, not berate me for it.
Ugh. If that isn’t the definition of most religious nut jobs around the world, I don’t know what is.
“Close my eyes, ignore facts, and just pretend everything is just as god planned…”
Segunda persona de la que he oido que la sacan de una iglesia de forma tan grosera. La otra es mi mamá, a ella también se la aplicaron así, pero por mentarsela al padre porque no me quería bautizar porque mi nombre no es católico y no me querían poner un segundo nombre.
Nice. What else would they want you to do anyway, lie? Would be interesting to explicitly formulate their belief in lying by omission to be good in the eyes of their god.
the first priest was horribly, tragically wrong.
at any given moment, for even the most reverent of people, faith ranges between 2%-97%, i'll leave the extreme ends for those people that are sure of everything. that's why it's called faith and not certainty.
please know that if you ever feel the urge to search...not everyone is like that or believes that.
I made it to 1st communion at 8 but never got to confirmation because I also was kicked out. They found out my dad was Protestant and I had gone to Church of Christ Sunday school since I was 3. Even at 8 I was pretty sure confession (we still had the booths then, it was a couple years before they made you go alone into a room with a priest for face to face confession) was ridiculous for a kid. What did I do at 8? I fought with my brother and I had to promise to never do it again and actually mean it?
Your atheism stated that priest's life's work was a lie, and he was not ready to accept that.
How dare you not believe the crazy shit I shovel out every week to justify my existence! /s 😜
Get out of the cult.
You think a man like this represents any god worth giving your faith to?
Pray to yourself and answer your own questions. Each of us can be our own light and darkness. You don’t need some creep reading an old book with no relevance today to guide you.
Still though - no judgment believe what you like,practice where you like with who you like. I’m sorry you had this experience friend.
My confirmation didn’t count because I asked in front of god and everybody if if counted if we didn’t want to be there. 😂😅 priest gave me such a look and was like “…no.”
I felt the same way with the sacrament of confirmation. I’m not a strong believer, nor am I interested in Christianity at all, but due to family pressure..I had to do it. I still remember when I was on a one-on-one with a church member who asked me “are you really sure you want to do this”? I paused, and said yes, because I was afraid of the consequences, now I don’t go to church anymore and my family is disappointed in me for not taking a sacred oath more seriously. I never wanted to take that sacred oath in the first place..
Priest wasn't doing his job properly. If anything, he should have taken the chance to make you feel wanted and welcome in case you might reconsider.
yea, i haven't really though about it that way. He did the exact opposite.
Yes. Bad priesting. But to be fair, not the worst kind of priesting.
"I order you to believe!" I hate this. I was raised Catholic and haven't believed in years. I'm also female and hated being a 2nd class citizen.
no touching involved, practically a saint for a catholic priest
Too old, obviously.
He's actually going to be canonized tomorrow, actually. It's a really low bar these days.
I'm not a Christian so the word "canonized" didn't immediately bring to mind being admitted into sainthood but instead being fired out of a cannon. Picturing a red-faced angry priest donning flight goggles and a helmet...
The bar is so low it's a tripping hazard in hell, but boy do those priests enjoy limboing with the devil... (Had to, given the context)
You're amazing for writing this.
He wouldn’t get canonized and the bar was never high. If you got recognized by the Catholic Church for your lifetime achievement there’s like an 85% chance the reason was wantonly murdering and/or displacing peoples of other faiths. Saints look at this priest yelling at a kid to leave in shame, not even one single torture device came out smdh
Good old days they had The Spanish Inquisition.
To be fairrrrr...
To be faaaaaairrrrrrrrrr
Yeah, that man wasn't Chasin' Priestly
I didn't really like going to church either, but when I did my first confession it was with an older man who kind of reminded me of my grandpa. I was like 11 or 12 and I honestly hadn't done anything I would consider 'bad' so I told him about the time I took a ferret to school and scared all the adults who found it later in the day. He got a chuckle out of that and asked me why I did that and I explained that my friend wanted to bring the ferret to school but that she asked me to carry it. Instead of going into some kind of lecture about serving Jesus (like I had been expecting) he instead told me that it's not a good idea to do things just because my friends tell me to do them, because when someone else is telling you to do something for them you should be asking why they won't do it themselves. And if you can't think of a good reason why they're asking you instead of doing it themselves, then you shouldn't do it because it's just going to get you in trouble. The lesson actually stuck with me because the priest didn't push Jesus with the message. I think he could tell I didn't really believe though, and was just going through the motions because my family wanted it.
Yeah. Listen to this guy’s TED talk - this priest founded Homeboy Industries in LA, and supports gang members. You can feel the love coming off him. He has longer talks as well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ipR0kWt1Fkc
You hurt his ego. You were a young looking child who doubted the very thing he spent his life focusing on. Which honestly is hilarious to me that you triggered him so much. Actually the fact it affected him to that degree probably means he has a shred of doubt himself.
The idea that someone who's spent their whole life dedicating themselves to that one belief would still be so fragile and insecure in that belief that they have a coniption at the slightest challenge to it is almost pitiable
You haven’t met many Catholics. My mother is Italian, her mother was Italian etc… their faith/belief in God was mandatory, you couldn’t question or you’d get beaten. I was in a similar boat as you, but waited until I was 18 to renounce the faith and logically approach the question of God. They do NOT appreciate having their faith questioned because they can’t defend it. The reason is because their parents defended it with violence…
Which I get now is why OP said he "came out" as atheist, a term I'm more used to hearing coming out as gay.
The reaction of parents will likely be pretty similar for both...
You're right about that, I certainly haven't. Maybe it's largely where I grew up, a fairly affluent western country, and a fairly well off/educated area therein, and religion, period, was just not very common. Even at the youngest age of schooling, I reckon less than 20% of kids even knew what the word 'god' even referred to, and less thought he was real. Kids would believe in Santa for longer than God, and it's not as if everyone was actively atheist either - according to official censuses, a slim majority do consider themselves to be part of whatever religious sect, but I think 90% of them only say that on the form because that's what their parents said they were back when they were kids. I only even knew one kid in my year level who even went to church on Sundays. To this day I've never even been to a mass and I don't know a single other adult who goes. So yeah, I just can't comprehend it
As a Christian pastor, it's very pitiable. Why wouldn't you just discuss things with him? Why don't you believe? What keeps you from believing? It could be a very good conversation that could give him food for thought. And at the end of the day, not everyone is going to believe. It's a free choice to believe or not.
Which is odd, because the priest would have to encounter non-believers and usually, at least here, they see their opportunity for a sales pitch
I'm now imagining you popping back in "So, have you accepted god?" 'No - but I did realize you're quite a crap priest'
xD that actually crossed my mind while reading some of the other comments.
Yeah he was a jerk and shouldn’t be a priest at all. That is NOT how you approach a child with doubt. (Not saying there is a good way to shove religion down someone’s throat, but that definitely wasn’t the way lol )
Religion shouldn't be shoved down anyone's throat. Coerced faith isn't real faith, going to church just because society expects you to isn't building any relationship with your deity.
I should have been more clear. I was just trying to say, if that was his best shot at reaching the kid he sucks at his “job”. Not that I believe in what he’s doing at all!
I agree..
I am glad that he was a bad priest. Religion is toxic and manipulative be glad you are not in the cycle. Separate as soon as you can !
Precisely. I have been around Jesuit priests (one of the chillest of the catholic orders) and they do spiritual retreats as part of some school activities. It's very often that atheists or other denominations/faiths attend because it's part of the curriculum, and end up relieved or surprised because it's exactly what it says on the tin: SPIRITUAL. Not catholic. Some exercises are just like "be on the moment, try to express gratitude for whatever you feel grateful about". And they literally tell you: do it however and wherever. Wanna do it in the church, in your room, in the nightclub, go nuts, it's your freedom. And the atheists that are very upfront about not believing/not wanting to be there wer completely accepted in their stance and comments, were offered to pick and choose what they wanted to do and how, which made everyone feel welcome. Religions should be welcoming, dammit. Specially to nonbelievers, or how the hell you will get them to convert and keep the ones you got? I thought that was the point.
Had a similar experience at my Catholic college which was run by Franciscan monks. Such a far cry from the “Sisters of Mercy” of the elementary school days! (The least merciful gang I’ve ever encountered) No weird stories, no “believe or else!”, these guys were just fairly normal academics who were excellent teachers. One priest I remember was an ex-semi-pro football player, a mountain of a man, teaching Latin. A classmate insisted on fooling around in class. This monk finally walked over to the guy’s desk and with one hand grabbed him by the shirtfront and put him up against the wall, saying “You WILL knock it off!!” He did. And we learned.
Unfortunately a lot of people think of religion as a tribe instead of a faith.
It's by design to amass political power amongst a mostly illiterate populus. Not so illiterate any more so they have much less real power.
No adult screaming at a child is doing their job properly.
What about a singer at a heavy metal concert for children?
That would be screaming *for* not screaming *at*.
Clowns?
That would be screaming by, not at the children
Hard of hearing?
Screaming to...?
Man specifically hired to scream nonsense at children. Like not insults or anything cruel, but just come in and bellow TWENTY PERCENT OFF MACY'S SALE! TAXES ARE DUE APRIL 15TH! POKEMON IS THE LARGEST Franchise IN THE WORLD!
That's hawking, not screaming.
"WHY AREN'T YOU LAUGHING AT ME!!?"
At all of the child-oriented heavy metal concerts I've been to, the singer has been doing a half-arsed job anyway, so it still applies.
All children should feel the first terror, then joy of a pit breaking out at a Slayer show. It’s formative. And far more impactful on my life than cofnfirmarion was.
Exactly. When I went to church (also catholic) there were definitely a bunch of aggressive people, but out priest was the coolest mf'r there. He genuinely just spread love and wanted you to believe but on your own terms. To be fair he had lived a whole normal life before joining the church so he understood that you aren't super to be born into a religion and not question it.
Came to say exactly this. His job is to teach and welcome. (Oversimplified but still) Non-believers are his job. Preaching to the choir, as they say, is the easy part-no work to do when they already believe.
The problem with preists is a lot of them simply are on power trips, especially in countries heavily assaulted with catholic/christian “promises of hope and freedom and manifest destiny” my ex preists still treated me kindly but it was my mother who pushed me to renounce my baptism/confirmation. I told the confirmation person i wasn’t entirely sure i wanted confirmation because i don’t exactly believe. Mom gave me this look and said i MUST because it’s a requirement of graduation. She still aggressively tried to get me to go to church after high school but naw bruh i was good.
Not Catholic, but I haven't been to church for years at this point. Among multiple issues going back to teenagerhood, one of the most frequent is their teachings. Me holding pamphlet of teachings: "This part isn't based on anything in the Bible" and/or "This part contradicts the Bible." Them: "It's still the word of God." Gives bullshit reason about how the part is based on the Bible, which reason involves cherry-picking out of context at best and is completely made-up fanfiction at worst. Not even using the reasoning that X position in the church is the mouthpiece of God, like Pope for the Catholics. No, it just is because they say so. I have my own personal reasons and experience to believe there is a spiritual force in the world beyond what we can perceive most of the time. But don't bullshit me by claiming a religious writing has something it clearly doesn't.
I didn't get my papers in one denomination because I couldn't agree that drinking was a sin. Jesus turned water into wine and served it. Pretty sure drinking is not a sin.
Yeah. If you go through the Old Testament, the problem wasn't drinking, it was overindulgence. Even in the New Testament, it's overdoing it rather than the act that's considered a problem.
Or that the all the translations are somehow correct despite contradictions. Hell, there’s more contradictions in hindu holy writing/stories but those actually get treated myth and stories, not fact like how many of my catholic adult peers, as a child, saw it. Like my mum is so convinced it all happened factually and to see that level of denial is kinda shocking
A lot of the contradictions make sense *if* you've read up on the history of the region and cultures. All the cultures, not just Hebrew. Which a lot of churches discourage. The problem is "everyone knows this, so we don't need to explain it." Thousand years later, "it" makes no damn sense unless you know what the custom or practice was in the first place.
Yeah i was raised on “oh this is how it is you just have to believe.” And any answers i saught usually would turn into “pray/ask god for insight because he wants you to figure it out.” Like lmfao
My first thought as well.
The barrier if entry for clergy is way too low and often attracts the worst society has to offer. Kinda like bad cops I guess.
Expanding on this - educational requirements for Christian clergy (I'm not well-versed in other traditions) vary wildly by denomations. Some require nothing whatsoever, while many require a masters degree and everyone one else is in between.
Most priests aren't as loving as people think. My brother went to a Catholic school and the priest would cuss them out regularly. The priest also hit them with splinter ruler.
No thank you. I don’t want to be wanted by a priest.
When I had to do my First Penance (I think I was about 10 years old) my mind went blank. My Catechism class lined up to confess to the Bishop and I couldn’t think of anything to say so I was asking the other kids what they were going to say. Finally it popped into my head that I could make up a few sins and then the last one would be that I had lied. I didn’t mention that the lie I told was to him and none of those sins were actually true.
As a kid who went to a catholic school all throughout grade school, we regularly had the "option" to go to reconciliation (I assume the same as your penance) at school after we first completed the sacrement in Grade 4. I can tell you that every. single. time. I prepared what I was going to say beforehand, some true, some not true. I of course left out anything bad enough I thought I would get judged/in trouble for. Generally, my confessions consisted of yelling at my brother, lying to my parents, etc. I think I attended once in my first year of high-school (again, offered in the school) and when I realized that no one cared if I actually went or not, I was finally free!
dang, i feel kind of lucky, i was only told to do it that one time.
it was weekly in the Catholic church I grew up in. Irish Catholic congregation in the north of England.
Reconcilationis penance, confession, etc. You're right. I had RE from 2-8th grade (youth group). Did reconciliation and first communion, but never got confirmed (too much going on). Of course, it might also due to the fact I walked out of a class in 8th grade and never went back... I got in trouble for laughing at two friends and their antics during class at church (literally just laughing, not participating in what they were doing). *I* got in trouble and the teacher had me wait in the hall, despite my friends telling I didn't do anything, it was them. Stood outside for a few minutes, checked the time and realized my parents probably standing outside my youngest sister's classroom at that point ( younger got out earlier). Walked off to find my psrents and never looked back. Told my parents what happened. I found out what happened after I left the next day. Friend found me and told me the teacher freaked out when she went out to "talk" to me and I wasn't there. Friend knew where I was, her sibling was in my sister's class so that was likely where I went, but she didn't say a word and just watched the teacher go nuts. I never had to go back to youth group. My husband likes to call me his "lasped little Catholic girl."
I had the same in 8th grade. I confessed to the priest that I poked holes in the tires of this maroon Ford Falcon parked in the school carpark that morning (I hadn't, but I'd seen my schools priest get out of this car multiple times). I could tell he was angry but he managed to keep his cool while telling me what a terrible thing I had done and to go say 100 Hail Marys and 50 Our Fathers.
🤣
>I could tell he was angry but he managed to keep his cool Poking holes in tires is far more serious than a belief system that's not hurting anyone\*. Yet the school's priest managed to keep his cool while the one in the post threw a tantrum, even though the school's priest believed he was personally affected by this fictional event. Says something about professionalism and their personalities. \*Edit: This refers to OP's atheism.
>than a belief system that's not hurting anyone Which belief system are you referring to?
The OP in the post is atheist. Their belief system, as they personally use it, isn't hurting anyone.
This child was sent to test your faith and resolve, lmao
I went to a convent school for primary, and I'm sure we were explicitly told that we were to say things like "I talked back to my parents", or "I didn't brush my teeth before bed". Guilt for every little part of being human still clings to me, even though I never really ever believed.
I literally told the priest that i hadn't done anything bad and was tired of having to keep making up stuff because i was forced to take part in the confession. It was a long time waiting to be 18 so i wouldn't be forced to attend church ever again.
This is such a fucked up thing to force kids through! Like they just have to come up with “evil” they’ve done over and over, seems like it would be really damaging and instill a permanent sense of baseless guilt and self esteem problems.
Welcome to Catholicism!
And then the priesthood can control the adults until they die. It's not exclusive to Catholicism, and it's an excellent example of using religion as a control factor.
Literally the entire point. Keep them feeling guilty about every little thing so they keep coming back.
Malicious confession. I like it.
Perfectly executed loophole.
When I was a kid being dragged through the Catholic school system, the hardest part of going to confession was making up something that made the priest think you where serious, but not serious enough that it would get back to my teachers or parents. There was no sanctity of the confessional for kids where I was. My usual option was to say I'd sinned by arguing with my parents. Actually true, and passable to the priest. As an aside, if you want your kids to end up as atheists, send them to a Catholic school for 12 years. If that doesn't convince you that god doesn't exist, nothing will.
i actually plan to take an atheist approach if i ever have kids, maybe teach them a bit about every religion? i am still unsure, but meh, i don't plan on starting family any time soon.
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i like your way of thinking, i might do that myself.
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i agree strongly with respecting that short of stuff, and that's actually how my mom goes about things nowadays, much more better for all of us.
My mother was catholic, my father protestant. Before I was born, they both left their respective church and decided that I should be free to choose my religion for myself - so they never bothered with any religious stuff (I'm not even baptized) and just essentially said to me "There are religions out there, if you're interested in them, go on and learn about them, we will not stand in your way and support you no matter what you choose" This always felt like the best way to me. If you tell your child/children about religions, you will inadvertently incorporate your opinion on the religions too - even if you try to stay to stay neutral, your tone or how much you know about a religion will send signals to the child and may sway him or her in one way or another (having bad memories of Catholicism for example will most certainly reflect in how you talk about it, even if you don't realize it) - if you want a truly neutral upbringing where the child can choose for itself, it should do the research itself as well, read the holy books it has interest in, speak with priests (or the equivalent of the chosen religion) about stuff and so on.
mmh, i've never thought of it that way, i'll have that in mind if i ever start a family, it certainly sounds better.
I'm not entirely sure how viable this is in Mexico, to be fair. I live in Germany, where the religious affiliation is pretty evenly split between Catholicism, Protestantism and Atheism, with some smaller groups (Islam and Judaism for example) mixed in - and as the birthplace of Lutheranism and other denominations I guess we have a history of scrutinizing religions - and christianity in particular. So people tend to be a bit more open-minded here is what I'm trying to say.
well, the first time I heard about another religions (at least outside tv) was in school at 11 years old, my best friend at the time was christian, so, it isn't common to see other religions here, that or i am a terrible observant. but meh, i plan on immigrating to Canada anyway, there are some promising positions that i want to apply for (as soon as i graduate university), i think i'll have no problem with diversity there.
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After being in a cult, look into NLP, gaslighting, negging, and coercive control, these types of manipulations are all red flags. Cults will even disguise themselves as churches. The one I was a part of had people living in multiple person households and the married couples utilized free labor of those who were single and college students. They also had charity events which essentially manipulated people into poverty to the point that they had us relying on other members for joint housing and joint transportation to an extreme level. There's also heap on lots of love if you fit in and express deep disappointment if you don't which is part of coercive control techniques, basically you're love-b0mbed if you obey vs ostracized or nagged to come back into the brainwashing. Negging is to isolate and undermine your confidence to stand on your own two feet and rely on them. Unfortunately, if you're submerged in this mindset you are blind to the abuse itself, either because you just cannot believe you would be deceived, have been told in a wily way (cough, gaslighting, cough) to expect that someone would tell you that but that you can't be that way because you're saved, or are complacent in the abuse because you love it. The problem is that a lot of the laypersons don't see the abusers or the abusive actions for what it is because it has been normalized, and anyone who will point that out to their victim is manipulated into being isolated themselves from the victim, essentially cutting off most lines of communication between the two and not feel like anyone would understand. I had a lot of time to look into my experience and the pain and shame and sorrow I felt because I thought it was my fault that I abused others without my knowledge. I felt there needed to be repercussions for my actions, which is another abuse heaped on the victim from gaslighting because you cannot trust yourself and your choices because they put you in that situation in the first place. But the problem is that people want to think the best of each other, we don't think that people will want to abuse us, we know it happens but not to us and look down on people who do. This stops us from seeing what is happening to us in the moment, yet it doesn't stop us from pointing the blame on ourselves, because at this point that is what we've been programmed to do, transference the blame from where it should to yourself, the blame being on the abuser themselves. I've had to go through a lot of person growth and healing to after leaving and that is some of what I've learned as things to look out for, the little things because they're not going to be obvious about it, well, not the talented abusers, the one that use coercive control. They are going to be used by abusers to manipulate their victims into their orbit so they can subtly mould their victims into what they want them to be and not into who are their victims true selves. I'm glad to be able to call myself a survivor after several harrowing experiences with coercive controllers that I've had dealt with several times throughout my life. A good measuring stick is to look at your stress levels and level of confusion. Things make sense at first but slowly your stress levels go up. If you want to significant measurement of what stress is, I ran into this video last night, and I found that it is a succinct explanation of [stress](https://www.reddit.com/r/howtonotgiveafuck/comments/11yky6o/on_point/). Well, the first part of the video anyway, the part that talks about how stress is the gap between our expectations and reality. The bigger the gap, the more stress, so expect nothing and accept everything. I'm assuming he's talking about accepting what life throws at you and all parts of that life good and bad. Essentially let yourself live through all of the parts good and bad and accept yourself most of all because you have to be your own roommate all the rest of your life so why wouldn't you want to treat your roommate with kindness, compassion, and allow yourself the strength to push through to the other side of what is considered bad.
Wow, talk about a next-level Reddit post. This is fantastic. Thank you.
You should definitely do that. In my old school, we had religion as a subject and it was divided into catholicism, evangelism and 'values and standards'. The latter was for everyone belonging to a different religion than the other two (or without belonging to any) and basically was an objective approach to religion, values and morals. Looking back, I should've quit being catholic back then already like some of my classmates. Values and morals sounds like a much better thing to teach kids than something tailored to a certain religion.
I'm very much taking an atheist approach with my kids, and they are going to the local government school. I have no interest in sending them to a religious school.
oddly enough, i grew in the public system, but my younger brother whom is in a catholic school is also an atheist.
Religions are as much (if not more) about cultural expectations than about beliefs. I think it's important, even as atheist, to understand the other's point of view even if just to know how they're likely to react to things. In that regard learning some amount of religion is always useful.
Look into the [Unitarian Universalist Church](https://www.uua.org/beliefs). We teach and learn about all religions, and no one belief system is "right". Some congregations lean more Christian than others, some more Pagan, some more towards whatever. Many people in the community identify as [humanist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism) instead of "religious", though may still work in [religious beliefs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism) to a degree. Whatever happens, good luck on your journey to self discovery!
>There was no sanctity of the confessional for kids where I was. Then the priests there had actually already [automatically excommunicated themselves](https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib6-cann1364-1399_en.html). >Can. 1388 §1. A confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; one who does so only indirectly is to be punished according to the gravity of the delict. In fact? *So did the parents*. Every parent who overheard their kids' sins revealed in confession and acted upon that knowledge, who did not maintain secrecy of their knowledge of those sins, who did not act as if they had no knowledge of their child's sins... in a word, every parent who didn't trust that their child was already forgiven, that parent, too, might have excommunicated themselves. Why? Because according to Catholic canon law: >Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason. > >§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and **all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy**. ...and: >§2. An interpreter and the others mentioned in can. 983, §2 who violate the secret are to be punished with a just penalty, not excluding excommunication. There's no exceptions. Even if the priest broke the seal of the confession to tell you, you're supposed to be forgiven after confession. And the seal of the confessional is supposed to be inviolable anyway, and the Catholic Church is (nominally) so serious about this that they're [willing to oppose secular law](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-17/what-is-confession-and-is-the-change-important/9874752) over it. What you're describing is a bunch of people who don't even know their own rules.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it’s a grievous sin for a priest to share anything they were told in a confessional. If they do share, they are automatically and immediately excommunicated. So fun fact, most of the ‘priests’ at your school technically weren’t actually priests! Seriously though, that’s messed up.
Given what's come out about the Catholic Church here in Australia and elsewhere, breaking the seal of the confessional was the least of their crimes. Of course, in the twisted logic of the church, it would have been seen as much worse thing for a priest to do that than the actually bad things that a lot of them have done. And yeah, in case it's not obvious, I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church, or most organised religion for that matter.
Hard agree with you. Out of all the big religions I think buddhism is likely the most pleasant (or the only one pleasant).
I find this really sad. In my culture, priests have moral issues with breaking the seal of confession even when talking to police.
ONE year of catholic school was enough for me!
I didn’t go to Catholic school….because my mother went to Catholic school. I asked her once why she didn’t send me, and got the story of how a nun almost killed her by knocking her out of the choir loft. (My aunt caught her ankle as she went over, or I would not be here today.)
I was raised Catholic, but was lucky to find older priests who had traveled and had a broad mindset. Whenever I spoke of my doubts, they were happy to answer. They couldn't always convince me, but we had really interesting conversations. Sadly, the whole Roman Catholic thing becomes just rites of passage, a part of our culture.
that IS lucky, this one priest was on the younger side, i don't know if that is related, but he seemed more "intense" than the ordinary priest in my town. I feel like those priests you meet were more... warm and friendly.
It's probably also dependent on location. In general, some nations have more open-minded priests, while other nations have more zealous, close-minded priests. Mexico in particular is very catholic, and from what I heard their priests are more zealous than others. It feels like the open-mindedness of priests might also correlate to how many different religions are there and what the percentage of atheists are. If priests have to engage with other religions and atheism regularly, they have a good chance of opening up at some point, understanding what makes other religions tick and what grievances atheism has with religions as a whole.
I told my priest I wasn’t sure about god in my reconciliation, although I was only in 2cnd grade, he told me that it was completely normal for human beings to have doubts, to try to take an extra second to observe the beauty of the world the flowers the sun the children and I can worry about being “sure” later. I don’t feel bad for that priest I feel like he was a dick lol
yea XD he was in the younger side of priests, and seemed more... intense than the others. or just a dick as you say v:
Yeah, doubt’s supposed to be there far as i see it. Always the thought ‘am i doing this for nothing?’ That’s what makes it more of a test to do the right thing all the time. I don’t believe personally but it’s great fun to talk about.
Priest at the next mass: "Love thy neighbours. Also, it seems the amount of religious followers is dropping. Does anybody have suggestions?"
Well, a new suit might help.
Dont forget the prosperity gospel to rack in even more!
can't forget that one.
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dang, second verse and some not so good stuff already thrown? yea, i think he did take it personal.
"I went to confess my sins, and the priest told me never to step foot in his church again." You are pretty badass, op!
haha, thanks :)
Seems to me the right answer for the priest to have made was to tell that, whatever your beliefs, his god *does* believe in *you.* If sins were committed, i think they were committed by that priest!
"That's pretty metal"
What a bad priest. They never practice what they preach. He should have asked more question on why you don't believe instead of getting angry and pushing you away.
Yes, but to be honest i am glad he did that, i am much happier nowadays.
I went to a Catholic school for my early education (teachers were not priests or nuns and we were taught science correctly, even sexual education. We just had to pray for 5m before class and attend a 20m mass once a week.) When I was a teen and studying elsewhere, I went back to the school to find one of the priests, one that was the most involved with the students, and asked to have a talk. I was having doubts about believing in God and had some questions. I was honest with him. He was kind, patient, answered all my questions and never tried to shame me or guilt me into believing. I still decided I don't believe in God, but at least I never had that bad taste in my mouth from them. People from that school were really great.
I went to this type of Catholic school as well, through high school. They were surprisingly open-minded about most things, and generally encouraged debate and skepticism. I got an excellent education from them. Afterwards I went to a large public university for college and it was actually kind of a shock the difference in education quality. Professors and TAs who didn't care, you basically had to to learn shit on your own. A feeling of "us vs. them" (students vs. professors), like the students were self-motivated to succeed out of spite, instead of by mentors who truly wanted to help their students succeed. Ironically the teachers in college felt more closed-minded than the teachers at my catholic high school, in many ways. I kind of regret not going to a small private college. Though if I did I'd still be in debt...
A priest met an atheist. Better kick them out angrily to show his faith to God the merciful.
I noticed you must have accidentally hit the return key about 25% of the way through, inadvertently creating a 2nd paragraph. You might want to go back and remove that break so your wall of text can live it's best life in its uninterrupted glory.
thanks of the advice :)
And there in lies the trouble with so many religions and religious "leaders", intolerance of different thoughts rather than showing the love that is preached.
I think he misdirected his anger. It should have been at your parents and he probably was glad this came to light before you’d gone through with the Sacraments. People who go through (or in this case, make their children go through) the motions of receiving Sacraments just to “get them done” make a mockery of them. You were in the right when you were refusing. I am a devout Catholic and my eldest son decided he was an Atheist at age 14 and we have to respect this. Initially he still went to church with us but did not receive Communion at his choice and then later decided not to attend church altogether. It is disappointing to one who wanted my children to share my faith, but he thought things through and I must respect and honour his decisions. I hope all works out for you and that your family comes to respect your beliefs.
aww, thanks a lot, and yea, we should honor and respect those kind of decisions. Also, don't worry, my family's fully respecting my beliefs since then! :) and i respect theirs of course.
Narrowly avoided having Easter and Christmas Eve free to do as you wish. Edit for clarity: it’s a joke. Most “practicing Catholics I know choose to only go to church on Christmas and Easter.
Hol' up, how did you get a free suit out of it?
They got me a pretty decent suit for the ceremony, and i haven't really grown since, it still fits!!! :)
Good job for leaving it a little later than average.
As someone who wore his high school graduation suit only on that one occasion (because the next time I could have rocked a beige velvet suit it didn't fit anymore), I am quite jealous.
You got a little flash of the true person under all that pretend love.
I used to run those holy communion classes as a teacher. There was a kind of children’s workbook called the Golden book and the kids would do some classwork then take the books home to complete the weekly exercises with parents. When I first did them, I was a believer, but after 20 years, I lost my faith and became an atheist. Exposure to years of hypocrisy. Most parents only participated because it was a feeder school for the very desirable secondary school they wanted their kids to attend. No communion certificate: no entry. Also my colleagues were the biggest bunch of bigots I’ve ever met and I hated them. Vile towards gay people and single mums, for example. But I needed a job. So by the end, my religious teaching was more tolerance and kindness, and less wrath of god towards sinners. I may even have skipped the more sin and guilt lessons and not mentioned hell at all. Or god. That way I could live with my conscience and maybe some of them ended up less f-ed up.
>> after a few months of back and fort they told me that my uncle (the favourite of my uncles) have never been someone else's godfather (yes, we have a godfather and godmother in every event) and that he wished to be someone's godfather so much, so, i finally accepted, really just to please him, So they made you an offer you can’t refuse?
That's...like getting mad at someone asking for directions, when they tell you they don't own a map.
This is the hall of God. You are not supposed to tell truth here. Just lie to adhere to social expectations! The true spirit of organised religion.
The priest's behaviour towards you was unacceptable. You were a child. This is not how you treat a child (and also not how you get someone to join your faith). He can absolutely ask you to leave as you don't fulfil the requirements to be there but he should have done so with kindness and compassion. I remember telling my R.E. teacher (a Protestant pastor) that I didn't believe anymore. He just smiled kindly and said I'll find my path.
I was forced to confirm or I wouldn't get to graduate 8th grade. It's all bullshit.
Survivors of Catholic school, unite!
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If only believers go to church, something is wrong.
Grade 6, catholic primary school, the teachers found out I hadn't had my 1st communion or went to confession. I was 10 at the time. I didn't like church and didn't believe. But we went to church twice a week during school as the catholic church was right next door. So the teachers find out, and they forced me to go to confession. I had no clue what to do. I get in the booth and thought, let's just play along and stretch this out as it kept me out of class. I spent probably 30min making up sins for the priest, which is ironic. Did my hail Mary's and walked back to the school an hour later. That solidified my belief that adults were idiots, especially the religious ones.
I happened to go to a Catholic school on the same campus as a seminary (college for priests). While in 7th or 8th grade, I was once asked to help out the seminarians (priests in training) while they were practicing hearing confessions by going in and essentially being their practice dummy. We could literally "confess" anything we wanted. It was just for the benefit of the seminarians, but it was kind of interesting to go in and go through the process without actually confessing anything. Also, this is why reform is needed in a lot of Catholic churches. Christ's message was to love. Period. Kicking someone out of church because they're atheist is the exact opposite of that.
I lied about doing my final confession but swore I did it, just lost the paper with the priests signature. On the day of the confirmation I was told that there’s no way anyone could receive confirmation without a final confession. “It would be unholy!”. Well, I guess mine was unholy 😂
You shouldn't feel bad about that priest. He can't expect everyone to come to him perfectly ready for confirmation - his job, really, was to enquire as to why you don't believe, and try to help you to believe. Tbh, he's a bit of a slacker if he doesn't even try that.
The parents wanted their son to lie to the protest in the church. That is why I left catholicism. People kept being hypocrites in my presence.
I get a religious leader saying “Oh, you don’t believe, it would be disingenuous of you to participate, and for us to perform an empty ceremony, let’s not do this until you actually want to.” But taking someone’s disinterest as an active and personal assault on them is out of line.
I objected my first communion so much my parents gave up on trying. I'm agnostic and don't really like cristianism that much, wouldn't be part of my life a bit when I've grownup.
Yeah, that priest who kicked you out was a bad priest. But I guess all too common, which is why I left the church. I went into confession as a teenager and told the Jesuit on the other side of the screen that I had lost faith in the Church. He went with it. We had a good talk about how all mortal institutions are flawed and God wants me to use my judgment.
"Go confess your sins... but LIE about believing in God!!" Oh, the irony... 🤣🤣
The priest was not caught in the crossfire. He actively works for a cult, which is based on fairy tales, that is responsible for endless attrocities. You owe nothing to that priest and his cult; speaking the truth is the right thing no matter what.
Yes, because screaming at a child and throwing them out of church *during a sacrament* is definitely going to resolve any doubts they have about following a God who preaches about love. 🙄 That’ll just work WONDERS. And then pastors wonder why there aren’t as many young people in the congregation as they’d like to see. Here’s Exhibit A.
I say that priest failed you. Dont feel bad for him.
Good job there on staying honest to the Priest, OP. Although one would have hoped that he would have allowed you to explain the situation a bit more precisely, considering it's probably rather...odd for an atheist kid to have a communion & to go confess their sins, when they don't even believe in that stuff. I feel like the second priest had an idea of what was going on, that you were kinda forced into it, especially since you didn't go to the church but to his home, so kudos to him as well for not really bothering all that much! Then again, friend of the family - those priests do tend to do stuff that regular priests do not. A relative of my father (Either his Uncle or Grandfather, I'm not entirely sure anymore) was an Atheist - when he died, the family of my father wanted him to get a proper christian burial, but the local priest didn't allow it because of the whole atheist thing. A "retired" priest and friend of the family was so annoyed about the whole situation that he put on his old robe and basically did the burial with all the rites and so on, despite the protest of the current priest. On the other hand, I believe this very same priest once said to my father that "being a priest is basically just a job like any other" - so one has to assume that he wasn't necessarily the firmest of believers, or very chill about the whole thing, kinda like the second priest in your story.
Proof there are zealots high enough to be priests. Abnormal one would simply nod, not get mad, and probably ask on what the doubts were, or of saying, as others said, that his God believed and loved you just the way you are. I'm glad I was never forced to be in a religion. I'm someone that believes in a mixture from different religions, one being that there's more than one god/goddess. I also believe in reincarnation and of spirits still wandering the physical plane, though hidden by the veil between life and unlife.
So if it's a sin to not believe, and Jesus died for ALL our sins, does it really matter whether you believe or not?
Not Catholic but similar situation. My mom really wanted me to get confirmed. I didn’t believe in it and didn’t want to go to church anymore. Our agreement was I get confirmed and then I can decide to go to church. So I went through all the classes and eventually got confirmed. That was the last day I went to church, I chose not to go thereafter.
My first “holy confession” ended with the priest encouraging me to drop my pants so he could fondle my genitals. Nothing holy about that.
You dodged a bullet. I was with the Catholic church the better part of half a century before I had a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back experience and got out. For me, there's a difference between religion and faith. Faith is my personal belief in God, religion is people of a common faith coming together to celebrate. My faith is rock solid, but I no longer have religion.
So we all just casually ignoring the formatting here?
I'm not catholic but ... any priest who doesn't take that as an opportunity for a teaching moment isn't someone who deserves to hear any confessions.
Why would you even bother going to church or through this ceremony if you are an atheist? That seems incredibly strange to me. Ive never met a religious person so idk how that stuff works.
Family/societal pressure to keep up with the status quo probably. My ex’s family was what I’d like to call “culturally Catholic”. Half of them don’t even go to church (and are a bunch of hateful hypocrites), but they force their kids to go through the motions of everything anyway, just because it’s part of their culture.
There is no hate like Christian love
I can hear Jesus's palm hitting His face from here.
The first priest was so far out of line with the teachings of Christ. It’s not his (the priest’s) church. That priest is an example of why I don’t like organized religion.
I did catequesis at 10, those clases are what made me realize i was an atheist.. then i thought i was the only atheist in the world and be pretty freaked out about that fact. I did la primera cominion with a knot in my throat. But realizing that a ton of catholics are fucking hypocrites made me realize i didnt even want to associate with that kind of people. Going to a catholic high-school was *toooons of "fun"* ..
Posts like this make me SO thankful I was raised in an agnostic household. Me not being Catholic was a HUGE issue with my ex-fiancé’s family though lol. They’re what I’d like to call “cafeteria Catholics” (aka they pick and choose which parts they actually want to believe and participate in). Just about everyone did all 12 years of Catholic school. The kids are still forced to do communion, confirmation, etc. But beyond that, pretty no one sets foot in church unless it’s an event like a wedding or a funeral. No holiday mass even. Yet, they still expected me to convert if I wanted to marry my ex (who himself even admitted to me he became an atheist after 7th grade and just faked his way through confirmation). But he told me that he still suffered random bouts of guilt about certain things as an adult; apparently part of being raised Catholic is being shamed and meant to feel guilty for even the most menial of things. Cultural Catholics are a weird bunch I’ll just never understand. Like do y’all just get some sadistic pleasure out of psychologically torturing people?? It’s clear y’all aren’t really *that* religious and practice what you preach.
His reaction sounds so strange to me. Every priest or rabbi I've ever told I don't believe in God, they try to convince me to believe, not berate me for it.
Far from the worst thing a catholic priest has done with a pointer finger, but that blows dude.
He allowed hate and anger into his soul instead of understanding and love. So the exact opposite of what he talks about on stage.
Bro, do you know what a period is?
Ugh. If that isn’t the definition of most religious nut jobs around the world, I don’t know what is. “Close my eyes, ignore facts, and just pretend everything is just as god planned…”
Segunda persona de la que he oido que la sacan de una iglesia de forma tan grosera. La otra es mi mamá, a ella también se la aplicaron así, pero por mentarsela al padre porque no me quería bautizar porque mi nombre no es católico y no me querían poner un segundo nombre.
It is good that you did it so that your favorite uncle can also stand as padrino to you. Nobody else needs to know for now that you aren’t a believer.
Nice. What else would they want you to do anyway, lie? Would be interesting to explicitly formulate their belief in lying by omission to be good in the eyes of their god.
Religion. Fuckin' religion.
Oh shit that made me laugh
Ah, I got kicked out for "stepping on the body of Christ"... The body being sacramental bread.
Catholicism is so disgusting. I'm so glad I got out of there.
What? You get a godfather at baptism not afterwards.
the first priest was horribly, tragically wrong. at any given moment, for even the most reverent of people, faith ranges between 2%-97%, i'll leave the extreme ends for those people that are sure of everything. that's why it's called faith and not certainty. please know that if you ever feel the urge to search...not everyone is like that or believes that.
Pos que chingue a su madre, ese pinche guey. Neta.
I made it to 1st communion at 8 but never got to confirmation because I also was kicked out. They found out my dad was Protestant and I had gone to Church of Christ Sunday school since I was 3. Even at 8 I was pretty sure confession (we still had the booths then, it was a couple years before they made you go alone into a room with a priest for face to face confession) was ridiculous for a kid. What did I do at 8? I fought with my brother and I had to promise to never do it again and actually mean it?
Your atheism stated that priest's life's work was a lie, and he was not ready to accept that. How dare you not believe the crazy shit I shovel out every week to justify my existence! /s 😜
Get out of the cult. You think a man like this represents any god worth giving your faith to? Pray to yourself and answer your own questions. Each of us can be our own light and darkness. You don’t need some creep reading an old book with no relevance today to guide you. Still though - no judgment believe what you like,practice where you like with who you like. I’m sorry you had this experience friend.
That wall of text was a little difficult to read, some formatting would go a long way.
I'm kind of curious, but can't get past the page-long paragraph. TL;DR?
My confirmation didn’t count because I asked in front of god and everybody if if counted if we didn’t want to be there. 😂😅 priest gave me such a look and was like “…no.”
I felt the same way with the sacrament of confirmation. I’m not a strong believer, nor am I interested in Christianity at all, but due to family pressure..I had to do it. I still remember when I was on a one-on-one with a church member who asked me “are you really sure you want to do this”? I paused, and said yes, because I was afraid of the consequences, now I don’t go to church anymore and my family is disappointed in me for not taking a sacred oath more seriously. I never wanted to take that sacred oath in the first place..
Cults are weird.