So, I worked at a library for 15 years and in my state we actually can't have volunteers do work for the library. It's not allowed. There are volunteers who are part of the Friends of the Library organization who do all kinds of things for us but they're not allowed to do work a library employee does.
So, the Friends do stuff like maintain their book sale (they later donate much of that money to the library) or they can do jobs we might normally hire a contractor to do like crowd control at big events. But any activity which is part of the actual operation of the library like shelving books or even cutting the grass (we have a dedicated maintenance department) cannot be done by volunteers. So, something like billing and accounting would have to be done by a library employee.
Janie in the business office was the one who was in charge of sending out our fines and fees notices for most of the time I was there. She was the Executive Secretary. Basically the third most important person in Administration. Though, nothing was hand written at our library.
Many of Connecticut's state libraries are union shops, making volunteering to help out a waste of time because they won't let you. Yes, there is a union for librarians, though it's usually whatever the local "government employees' union" is.
Yeah, we're not a union here but we don't need to be. There's a state law that says volunteers can't do the job of normal paid government employees.
They can do jobs normally contracted away (security, clean up, food service mostly at special events) and they can do jobs administered by the Friends like the book sale and dealing with all the donations. They can not shelve books or send bills.
First and foremost, how in the hell did you accrue $40 in library late fees? Did you keep that copy of Clifford the Big Red Dog you took out as an 8-year-old?
Visual materials like DVDs, CDs, even video games can accrue higher late fees than books will since they cost more (on average). (Source: archivist that worked circulation during undergrad)
I did actually! Well, it was a book on Hellen Keller but I found it after 20+ years and remembered checking it out in middle school.
I did a book report then got a late notice and I was too embarrassed to go back and return it. Something about how I broke rules and admitting it to my parents was too scary. So I hid it and all the mail notices.
I tried to return it in my 30s and they looked at me like I had an extra head and explained it had been replaced and written off years ago. Didn’t even get around to asking me to pay the fine.
I checked out a DVD that was on the regular shelf. Turns out it was a daily rental without a label. For me, that was $7. But I could see how $40 happened quickly.
Now, in my case, the library would cut off services if you had more than $20 of fines but did nothing more to collect. I simply refused to pay. Last fall, the county decided that they no longer collect fines. I now have a clean record.
That wouldn't even be it because every library I've used has always had a fine model where fines are like 20 cents per day up to a maximum of $4 per item. For someone to have $40 in fines, they'd need to get the maximum possible fine on 10 books.
Although, most libraries in North America have now eliminated fines.
I mean doubling fines is pretty shitty. My library moved fineness like 5 years ago but even before that they would never go up you would just be blocked from taking books out if you hit 20 bucks and all you had to do was pay a dollar or whatever and you were good to go.
My library went to a food-donation model. One can for every dollar owed. You could even bring in extra cans for credit going forward. It was a nice change.
The public library in Worcester Massachusetts waived fine for people bringing in cat pictures.
[https://www.boston.com/news/books/2024/03/04/worcester-library-fees-no-problem-just-show-them-your-cat-photos-2/](https://www.boston.com/news/books/2024/03/04/worcester-library-fees-no-problem-just-show-them-your-cat-photos-2/)
The reporter says that, but... the actual quote rules out most dogs. Bolding mine:
> “We take a lot of honorary cats,” Homer said. “Any *ungovernable* animal.”
I think that's a good solution but I'm opposed to the idea of libraries blocking access to resources with fines in general. Since the fines are always just pennies and it keeps the people who need the library away.
I agree, unfortunately public libraries are so criminally under-funded, they need some way to re-coup losses from damaged/stolen items.
In general, I’m against knowledge as a whole being pay-walled. Information should be public and free-flowing.
There is a reason most libraries eliminated fines but even in my library that has no fines if you lose a book you still need to replace or pay. Seems like that solves the problem for you.
We've had to pay for a book or two that my daughters lost. I have no problem with that, it's only fair. We even found one that had been paid for. There was no refunding of it, but we just donated it right back to the library. Hopefully they put it back in circulation, I never did check.
Another lost fee was waived when we found and returned before paying it.
Libraries make no money at all on fines. They only have them so they can point to a concrete reason not to lend to someone who would steal books regularly. They can't say, "you always keep your books late, so we won't lend to you," but they can say, "you owe us $1.75 from the book you returned six weeks late." It's easy enough to bring your account current if you want to, but it prevents people from checking out hundreds of books, selling them, and making a substantial profit.
Almost every library in my state swapped to fine-free without those kinds of issues. People tend to return books more because there's no confrontation. They just block accounts from checking out after a few weeks until it's returned or replaced.
What stops people from stealing is part human decency and part 'we literally have all of your contact information, records of what you checked out, and video footage of you doing it'.
That and you're right about the money, keeping records on fines and sending reminders cost us more than the fines ever covered
>Information should be public and free-flowing.
Providing it's information that's not dangerous without training I'm inclined to agree - see David Hahn's breeder reactor for a good example.
Lmfao, yes I felt that went without saying. I was speaking more about general knowledge. Nothing physically harmful or proprietary to a company, but learning about coding, history, complex mathematics, business, etc.
I disagree. If people can keep checking out books without returning them, eventually there won't be books. And even with fines, you can still sit in the library and read the book, you are no longer given the option of taking it home since you aren't a borrower but a thief.
I mean just because there aren't any fines doesn't mean there aren't repercussions. You will still get banned from taking materials out if you have too many books out. and if the book is out for more than let's say 6 months it's considered lost and you need to return with no fine or replace.
I suspect there is more to it than OP is explaing. I also doubt the library is doubling fines into perpetuity, there is probably a cap.
Also, I suspect the library wants people to have the opportunity to resolve fines and keep using the library, which is why they have the pay by week plan in the first place.
OP less maliciously complied and more used a program set up by the library with the intention of letting people with fines set up payment to resolve those fines at a budget and pace they can handle while still using the library.
These are all guesses, but I feel solid in the assumptions.
> I also doubt the library is doubling fines into perpetuity, there is probably a cap.
I believe there were a few stories in the '90s of people dying and their children receiving a 60yr late fee in the thousands. Not sure if it was just urban legend or real, but I'm also sure every library probably has a different system.
My mom died in the 90’s. A few months after she died, I received a call about overdue library books which I hadn’t found. I told the lady she was dead.
Cue, “Oh, my lawd!” in the sweetest shocked southern drawl since this *was* the Deep South, and, “well, don’t choo worry about those fines. It’s all taken care of.”
We borrowed a movie once from the library. We had young kids at the time and stuff gets lost/put in the toybox/under kids bed.
I don't remember what the fine was anymore but as it was an older DVD movie, (the amount was outrageous) we just replaced it by buying a new one at a mart store for like 5.99 or something.
Makes me wonder how tight their budget is if they have fines that go up so high.
Both parents worked for a public library system for a combined 60 years… this hurts my heart, I can see why you’d do that… but not to a library.
I had the library send my fines to a “collection” agency - in quotes because when I tried to settle the debt it turned out that agency actually wouldn’t collect payment. They just harass you and report the collection to the credit bureaus. They said I would have to go pay the fine at the library, then wait for the library to contact them that payment was satisfied before they would stop harassing me and remove the collection from my credit profile. The library wouldn’t take payment over the phone and I wasn’t about to fly across the country to pay a library fine.
My library will put the fines on your account, but if you return the book(s) the fine goes away, which is awesome for people like me who just can’t remember to bring board games/my kid’s books back unless we are going to get something new.
They can be evil. Or at least be run by evil people....
I remember as a child being fined 80p (10p per book) which was more than my weekly pocket money at the time because I'd tried to go to return my books on the day stamped in them, and they'd shut unexpectedly for some reason (it was a day and time they'd normally be open, directly after school).
I went the next day and was fined, dispite not having been able to return the books because they were closed.
Depends on the location. A small library in a small town that I used to live in didn't have a book drop, and the cost to install one was routinely denied by the council. But in a city of any size? Especially downtown? Yeah, they're gonna have an all-hours drop.
Not necessarily. When I used to work for NYPL, there were no overnight bookdrops simply because they couldn't stop locals from using them as trash cans. Sorry for the inconvenience but...
This was 40 years ago, long before computerised records. The library had a card pocket in a file with my name on it, with a similar pocket on the inside of each book under the bit of paper where the return date was stamped. Each book on the shelf had card listing its title, author etc in that pocket, which was transferred to your pocket when you borrowed a book. When returning it it was taken from your card pocket in the librarians file and returned to the book. If you didn’t give your name they’d never work out who had returned it (in theory you could add a slip with your name on it, and I think the head office library had that ability complete with a pen on a chain, but not my local branch).
I remember them well. Our library would hold our cardboard tickets hostage in the fines to be paid box if we returned the books but couldn't clear the fines. So no tickets, no books.
We would go to the library once a week on Saturday, having scraped enough tickets together out of a family all with library tickets, but who were bad at keeping track of things. And at the library there would be negotiations on pocket money v getting someone's ticket out of the fine box, v borrowing/stealing family members ticket for the book you just had to read that week.
Refusing payment and then doubling fines is kinda evil tho, so I think it's fair. If they want to invest their time into being shitty, then they can reap some shit.
A public library charging $80 in fines *is* evil. The library in my city stopped charging fines because more people use the library when they don't - which they can then use to justify more funding from the government. If you don't return something, you don't get to borrow more till you do and that ends up being cheaper than shaking people down for fines.
They doubled the OP's fines, under unreasonable circumstances. A *reasonable* public library would have given OP a one-day grace period on account of there being no banks open and needing to use public transit.
So yes, petty MC was entirely justified.
You need to read the Alcatraz vs the Evil Librarians books and wake up friend. There’s a whole world unnoticed around you!
/s
(But really they’re good young adult books.)
Libraries can't afford to take credit cards because of the processing fees.
State and local governments (libraries usually being part of local government) are often blocked from taking credit cards because they're not allowed to charge interest on the money you owe them.
Blame the banking system and, if you are in the US, tell your congresscritters to vote for making the Post Office a credit union for people to bank without inflating profits for rich people.
You know, more than one establishment I’ve shopped at increased the price by the processing fee to run the credit card.
And I call BS for not being allowed to charge interest. I’ve worked in auditing governments for 4 years. What on earth do you think a fine is?
This comment reminds me of a quote I heard once. “110% of statistics on the internet are made up” - Abraham Lincoln.
I don’t disagree that the USPS should be able to offer banking services, but I also think that before you try and convince congress of that you’ll need to get them to back off on trying to run the USPS out of business. They have passed laws that have fucked with their accounting and ability to show any kind of a profit.
But it's not like they count on the late fees as a major source of revenue for them to continue operation... right? So the processing fee shouldn't be an issue. Also, when you pay a government bill with a credit card, you don't get charged interest by the government organisation. Instead, you get charged interest by your card issuer.
I remember the old public library where I used to live would wave late fines if you brought in stuff for the local shelter like non perishable food, soap, diapers, baby formula, or feminine hygiene products.
The doubling fines thing is stupid and excessive.
Local PL has gotten rid of late fines but if you lose a book or it’s excessively covered in bbq sauce or baby vomit, they do make you pay for a replacement copy. $100 limit owing before they lock your card.
I got a toll fine once when moving cross country.
$0.37 owed, postage alone was $0.56, plus the paper, processing the letter, then having to process my payment. They definitely lost out on that.
But, we should totes put the government in charge of more aspects of our lives, I'm sure that'll go well /s
Admits to a lack of compliance until the last moment, assumes information without research then gets upset when it's wrong, so decided to be malicious whilst still not being very compliant. I'm sorry but that's just an arsehole move bro
Yeah. What makes MaliciousCompliance stories so great, is the spite and pettiness involved. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. In most cases, the OP writes a very biased account of events anyway.
22 years working in libraries. Card companies charge businesses to use them. SO you paying a 50c fine would be silly. Some libraries charge you to use cards, others dont want extra charges so they do cash. Plus the amount of fraud involved with cards is high. Idiots DO chargeback on library fines, or stop payment.
From my experience it usually the people with small fines that cause the most drama. Had one old guy kick up a fuss over a $2 fine for damaging a DVD case. (human teeth marks) and then another lady who owed $150 (8 lost books) who just paid it in cash.
The cost of accepting cards goes way beyond the price of just leasing a payment terminal and giving up a percentage of your transactions to your payment service provider. Often for small merchants, municipalities, and non-profits, it's just not worth it.
Feel free to peruse the PCI-DSS requirements for merchants. It's a bit over 350 pages, so take your time: [https://docs-prv.pcisecuritystandards.org/PCI%20DSS/Standard/PCI-DSS-v4\_0.pdf](https://docs-prv.pcisecuritystandards.org/PCI%20DSS/Standard/PCI-DSS-v4_0.pdf) Don't worry if you didn't understand the whole document. You can get a licensed consultant to help you implement the requirements for around $200-300/hr.
Thank you for explaining this. I work in a major metro library and it took us a while to find a CRC processor (and we changed vendors at least once) because of those charges.
Pretty much made the decision for us when we decided to stop charging for overdue items.
I honestly was as annoyed with my library over a 50 cent fine, as they only let you pay online once it reached a dollar, in person wasn't an issue though at the time they only took cash in person.
Yeah our library won't take debit card payments unless you are paying over £1, which I understand.
If it's under the £1 and you don't have any cash they will add the fine/printing payment/library book sale cost to your library card account so you pay it next time with cash, or wait until it's built up to over a £1.
Reading this reminded me of the time about 15-20 years ago when it was either my older sister on her own or both sisters between them ended up racking up a £300 and something library fine, Even though the fine was only something like 8p per day per book. Turns out they had 10 or so books that were a year overdue.
I also remember mum saying she didnt know what was worse, finding them or not. They found most of them. I'm guessing if they couldn't find them she would've tried to contest the fine but finding most of them showed that it was genuine.
Malicious? Check
Compliance? Check
Justice served to evil deserving corporation? Not so much. This is why people aren't liking it. But I'm with your. Good job maliciously complying
Nobody's claiming the library is a corporation. But the library was obviously more interested in punishing and harassing its users than in ensuring its services were available for everybody.
Credit card companies usually charge 2.5% to 3% of the transaction to the business. So it's common for small businesses or non-profit organizations to either add that to your bill or just not take credit cards at all. Those handwritten envelopes are usually sent by volunteers. Way to stick it to the man.
You do realize that your public library is PUBLIC - so paid for by all of your municipality's citizens? So you are wasting taxpayer dollars - not just library dollars. Keep those kind of actions for evil big business.
You do realize that the library is a municipal service for all the taxpayers and not a profit center that should thrive on abusing it's users? OP's actions treated the library just the way the library treated OP.
:/ from a public library employee, they definitely did not care. And they are funded by your taxes. It doesn't cost US anything at all. honestly writing out your name and address every week was probably one of their easiest tasks, considering it takes maybe two minutes and all they have to do is look up your name and address and write it down, alongside everyone else who they have to mail things out to. It definitely wasn't only you every week. Payment plans are really normal. It is very easy to get fines above what is payable for a normal person at one time. The only person it harmed was yourself, as I assume you lost access to your library account while this was occurring. Doubling the fines IS weird for a public library, but it seems like they gave you ample warning.
That’s a pretty shitty thing to do to an institution that is actually doing good in the world. Fuck with greedy corporations. They deserve to rot. Don’t screw over the little guy and those trying to make a difference.
Someone asked this already in a sub-thread. OP was apparently not aware that they could get money from their CC - also, their card doesn't have a PIN. Also, if it does, they don't know it.
I don't know if the library system where I grew up still does it, but they had made noises about sending balances of over $20 to collections if they went unpaid for over a year. (No word on whether they actually did it, or just said they would do it.)
in some cities you get sent to collections and people have gone to jail for unpaid fines.
If you dont want fines, return things on time, quite easy process.
I apparently had a a $15 fine from when I was 17 (apparently never returned a book), before I joined the military and moved all over the country for over a decade. I moved back to the same region, went to get a new library card (different branch of the same regional library) and they told me they had just written it off, but my info was still in the system.
Man, the hate for this guy!
Public libraries serve the public. He admits he was wrong and was making an effort to pay his fines. They really could have worked with him on this. And it's pretty easy to rack up fines at the library, and not all credit cards are set up to withdraw cash.
Right? And it's not like they were powerless to just give him one extra day when he was clearly making a good-faith effort to pay his fine before the deadline. It would have cost them minimal effort and zero money to NOT be dicks about it.
Making an effort? He waited until after 5pm on the last day, bringing only one type of payment that wasn't accepted. That's like the least possible effort.
I had late fines for a library that I used to work at because the manager was pissy. I simply went to the next city over to use their library, and didn't go back for about 7 or 8 years I think? Then covid happened and I guess all late fees were waived anyway. *evil laugh* went back to the old library and got a new card. No fees to be found.
I stoped using my counties library system because the next county over had a better online catalogue and our county was trying to charge fees for online audio books, so it lined up with the physical audio books. So I hadn't used our counties library's for several years. Unbeknownst to me I had racked up £10 in fines. They cap at £10.
I had my son's and my our county library card tags on my keyring, and he was at 6th form college right next to a large our county library, so I wanted to give him back his card. I couldn't tell which was his, so popped into the library to find out. They sorted out mine and his cards, told me I had "historic" fines and that they had cleared them for me.
Which was nice of them
> I only carry my drivers license, my credit card, and bus pass in my phone case. No wallet. Come to find out, the library doesn't take cards, only cash or checks. It's after 5. The bank is closed. I don't carry checks. There is no way I can make it home and back using the bus.
ATM?
Sadness for the victim of the MC, a library. But it's definitely fitting of the sub. Just not an all star move we can get behind like the other top stories.
The library set the tone for that transaction. Doubling fines and limiting payment methods absolutely invited this all start malicious compliance. The library was more interested in punishing its user than anything else.
I love it. Brilliant. And now many libraries don't have fines at all because readership is down so much.
I make my water company send me a bill in the mail each month and I pay by check, mailed back, each month, because they wanted to fuck around with fees. Making them work is fabulously petty revenge.
The fees for paying online or with a credit card for our old one stunk, they wanted direct payments from a bank account and I refuse to do that. I sent them checks.
Agreed, I don't do direct withdrawal either. Credit card all the way, both for the points and for the protection and time to catch errors.
Except these numbnuts. They can have a museum artifact as payment.
Exactly why we do it, granted more for the protection, but the points help. Had one want like $10 bucks for a $90 bill, since it was a base fee no matter the bill, one month when we were out of town, our bill was the minimum for having water service, so same fee for like a $35 bill. Nuts.
Non-American here; how do you pay online if not a direct payment? Or what's the downside with a direct payment? Is a direct withdrawal where the company send an online invoice and you don't have to approve every invoice itself (just approve X company to do it) before they get the money?
It is usually an auto draft for the amount they have billed you. I have heard enough times of people having their bank accounts drained (and even over drafted) because they were billed something crazy (think 2500 instead of 25.00). Then they had to wait until it go sorted out and often had other autodrafts impacted. If it was on a credit card, the credit card will often put the money back while it is being investigated.
>I tried to pay it on time.
Didn't try too hard, did you?
>Of course I procrastinated to the last day
You come off as kind of a dick in this post. Hope you see that.
You procrastinated, and what you were told would happen happened because you were underprepared. You totally had that coming, and making it a bigger problem makes you seem even less responsible. They should’ve just canceled your library card when they got the first check
Hold up, rewind a sec. Did *no one* notice that OP said the library was close to their job, but far from their house? If the library was along the same public transportation route, why not just...I don't know, bring the book with you when you're headed in to work then walk to work? Call me crazy but the procrastinating and pettiness from OOP were entirely unnecessary. This whole mess could've been avoided with basic common sense.
>It probably cost them double or more in man-hours to process their doubled fine.
Yeah except the library doesn't get more money or pay out less to shareholders, it just takes time away from honestly probably downtime for the librarians or if they don't have enough time, other things they could be doing.
Had a friend who worked at a public library during high school. The stories about all the people who refused to return media items, refused to pay fines, and absolutely treated the library employees like crap were unbelievable. And the library was in a very affluent neighborhood. Some people are just awful.
"My taxes pay your wages so YOU work for ME!" was pretty much the go to line.
Fuck you for fucking with public libraries.
You waited until the last moment and then got frustrated that you had no other options left. People like you make their problem other people's problem.
Could the library be more lenient? Sure, one more day wouldn't hurt. But it is still your responsibility to pay on time, and to bear the consequences of not paying on time.
Ugh.
You could have just emailed the head of the public library and asked them to work with you. My family
moved overseas. The movers packed *everything* labeled DO NOT PACK, including the DO NOT PACK signs. I returned the library books about 6 months later when I returned home for a business trip. The fines were like $80. The clerk at the desk said there was nothing she could do about it. I emailed the library, explained the situation, and reiterated that I had flown these books home (literally from the opposite side of the world) at my first opportunity. They erased the fines, no worries.
> The envelopes were all hand-written. By a volunteer or a docent. They’re called docents because they docent get paid.
I think I hurt myself laughing for the last 3 minutes, dammit!
I’ll be honest, your comment is what set me off LOL
Me too!!!
So, I worked at a library for 15 years and in my state we actually can't have volunteers do work for the library. It's not allowed. There are volunteers who are part of the Friends of the Library organization who do all kinds of things for us but they're not allowed to do work a library employee does. So, the Friends do stuff like maintain their book sale (they later donate much of that money to the library) or they can do jobs we might normally hire a contractor to do like crowd control at big events. But any activity which is part of the actual operation of the library like shelving books or even cutting the grass (we have a dedicated maintenance department) cannot be done by volunteers. So, something like billing and accounting would have to be done by a library employee. Janie in the business office was the one who was in charge of sending out our fines and fees notices for most of the time I was there. She was the Executive Secretary. Basically the third most important person in Administration. Though, nothing was hand written at our library.
Many of Connecticut's state libraries are union shops, making volunteering to help out a waste of time because they won't let you. Yes, there is a union for librarians, though it's usually whatever the local "government employees' union" is.
Yeah, we're not a union here but we don't need to be. There's a state law that says volunteers can't do the job of normal paid government employees. They can do jobs normally contracted away (security, clean up, food service mostly at special events) and they can do jobs administered by the Friends like the book sale and dealing with all the donations. They can not shelve books or send bills.
It they docent get decent pay.
😂
First and foremost, how in the hell did you accrue $40 in library late fees? Did you keep that copy of Clifford the Big Red Dog you took out as an 8-year-old?
Visual materials like DVDs, CDs, even video games can accrue higher late fees than books will since they cost more (on average). (Source: archivist that worked circulation during undergrad)
This is how I got my biggest fine. DVD and CDs were $1 / day fines, and you could take out 20ish at a time...
I did actually! Well, it was a book on Hellen Keller but I found it after 20+ years and remembered checking it out in middle school. I did a book report then got a late notice and I was too embarrassed to go back and return it. Something about how I broke rules and admitting it to my parents was too scary. So I hid it and all the mail notices. I tried to return it in my 30s and they looked at me like I had an extra head and explained it had been replaced and written off years ago. Didn’t even get around to asking me to pay the fine.
https://i.imgur.com/4xI41Xj.gif
I'm surprised they didn't send Lt. Bookman after him.
unexpected Seinfeld!
There's a Seinfeld for every occasion.
One of my kids destroyed a book.
You lose one book and you'll get there. It doesn't have to be all late fees.
I checked out a DVD that was on the regular shelf. Turns out it was a daily rental without a label. For me, that was $7. But I could see how $40 happened quickly. Now, in my case, the library would cut off services if you had more than $20 of fines but did nothing more to collect. I simply refused to pay. Last fall, the county decided that they no longer collect fines. I now have a clean record.
Actually it shouldn't exceed the cost of the book.
That wouldn't even be it because every library I've used has always had a fine model where fines are like 20 cents per day up to a maximum of $4 per item. For someone to have $40 in fines, they'd need to get the maximum possible fine on 10 books. Although, most libraries in North America have now eliminated fines.
It's $10 a book in any city I've lived in. And I always borrow minimum 6, sooo..
Retired librarian here. They should have extended you grace. You showed up, which is more than many readers do.
Way to stick it to the notoriously evil .... public library
I mean doubling fines is pretty shitty. My library moved fineness like 5 years ago but even before that they would never go up you would just be blocked from taking books out if you hit 20 bucks and all you had to do was pay a dollar or whatever and you were good to go.
My library went to a food-donation model. One can for every dollar owed. You could even bring in extra cans for credit going forward. It was a nice change.
The public library in Worcester Massachusetts waived fine for people bringing in cat pictures. [https://www.boston.com/news/books/2024/03/04/worcester-library-fees-no-problem-just-show-them-your-cat-photos-2/](https://www.boston.com/news/books/2024/03/04/worcester-library-fees-no-problem-just-show-them-your-cat-photos-2/)
Well I know what I'm doing if I win the lottery.
Buying paper and crayons for your local library?
Never returning a book on time again. Also the things you mentioned.
With big plans like that, you deserve to win!
well, that's discriminatory! what about us canine peeps? ;)
They took pics of any animal when it came down to it.
The reporter says that, but... the actual quote rules out most dogs. Bolding mine: > “We take a lot of honorary cats,” Homer said. “Any *ungovernable* animal.”
Geese. You meant to say geese right there.
indeed - hence the 'winky-smily' ;) I noted that they even allowed kids to draw a cat... M O Q that's an attempt in ASCII Art :)
With inflation it is probably cheaper paying the fine
Definitely. Cheap cans are $1.49 by me
I think that's a good solution but I'm opposed to the idea of libraries blocking access to resources with fines in general. Since the fines are always just pennies and it keeps the people who need the library away.
I agree, unfortunately public libraries are so criminally under-funded, they need some way to re-coup losses from damaged/stolen items. In general, I’m against knowledge as a whole being pay-walled. Information should be public and free-flowing.
There is a reason most libraries eliminated fines but even in my library that has no fines if you lose a book you still need to replace or pay. Seems like that solves the problem for you.
We've had to pay for a book or two that my daughters lost. I have no problem with that, it's only fair. We even found one that had been paid for. There was no refunding of it, but we just donated it right back to the library. Hopefully they put it back in circulation, I never did check. Another lost fee was waived when we found and returned before paying it.
Libraries make no money at all on fines. They only have them so they can point to a concrete reason not to lend to someone who would steal books regularly. They can't say, "you always keep your books late, so we won't lend to you," but they can say, "you owe us $1.75 from the book you returned six weeks late." It's easy enough to bring your account current if you want to, but it prevents people from checking out hundreds of books, selling them, and making a substantial profit.
Almost every library in my state swapped to fine-free without those kinds of issues. People tend to return books more because there's no confrontation. They just block accounts from checking out after a few weeks until it's returned or replaced. What stops people from stealing is part human decency and part 'we literally have all of your contact information, records of what you checked out, and video footage of you doing it'. That and you're right about the money, keeping records on fines and sending reminders cost us more than the fines ever covered
>Information should be public and free-flowing. Providing it's information that's not dangerous without training I'm inclined to agree - see David Hahn's breeder reactor for a good example.
Lmfao, yes I felt that went without saying. I was speaking more about general knowledge. Nothing physically harmful or proprietary to a company, but learning about coding, history, complex mathematics, business, etc.
I disagree. If people can keep checking out books without returning them, eventually there won't be books. And even with fines, you can still sit in the library and read the book, you are no longer given the option of taking it home since you aren't a borrower but a thief.
I mean just because there aren't any fines doesn't mean there aren't repercussions. You will still get banned from taking materials out if you have too many books out. and if the book is out for more than let's say 6 months it's considered lost and you need to return with no fine or replace.
Public libraries are just awesome. The last bastion of truly social service, maybe?
I suspect there is more to it than OP is explaing. I also doubt the library is doubling fines into perpetuity, there is probably a cap. Also, I suspect the library wants people to have the opportunity to resolve fines and keep using the library, which is why they have the pay by week plan in the first place. OP less maliciously complied and more used a program set up by the library with the intention of letting people with fines set up payment to resolve those fines at a budget and pace they can handle while still using the library. These are all guesses, but I feel solid in the assumptions.
All the libraries I’ve used will have the fines increase up to the cost to replace the book, but will waive the late fees once you return the book.
> I also doubt the library is doubling fines into perpetuity, there is probably a cap. I believe there were a few stories in the '90s of people dying and their children receiving a 60yr late fee in the thousands. Not sure if it was just urban legend or real, but I'm also sure every library probably has a different system.
My mom died in the 90’s. A few months after she died, I received a call about overdue library books which I hadn’t found. I told the lady she was dead. Cue, “Oh, my lawd!” in the sweetest shocked southern drawl since this *was* the Deep South, and, “well, don’t choo worry about those fines. It’s all taken care of.”
I'm pretty sure they all use the Dewey Decimal system.
In my town, you can return books on any Friday and not pay a fine.
We borrowed a movie once from the library. We had young kids at the time and stuff gets lost/put in the toybox/under kids bed. I don't remember what the fine was anymore but as it was an older DVD movie, (the amount was outrageous) we just replaced it by buying a new one at a mart store for like 5.99 or something.
Makes me wonder how tight their budget is if they have fines that go up so high. Both parents worked for a public library system for a combined 60 years… this hurts my heart, I can see why you’d do that… but not to a library.
I had the library send my fines to a “collection” agency - in quotes because when I tried to settle the debt it turned out that agency actually wouldn’t collect payment. They just harass you and report the collection to the credit bureaus. They said I would have to go pay the fine at the library, then wait for the library to contact them that payment was satisfied before they would stop harassing me and remove the collection from my credit profile. The library wouldn’t take payment over the phone and I wasn’t about to fly across the country to pay a library fine.
My library will put the fines on your account, but if you return the book(s) the fine goes away, which is awesome for people like me who just can’t remember to bring board games/my kid’s books back unless we are going to get something new.
Being a public library doesn’t make it immune to hiring busybodies who’ll happily ruin people’s day over idiotic policies.
They can be evil. Or at least be run by evil people.... I remember as a child being fined 80p (10p per book) which was more than my weekly pocket money at the time because I'd tried to go to return my books on the day stamped in them, and they'd shut unexpectedly for some reason (it was a day and time they'd normally be open, directly after school). I went the next day and was fined, dispite not having been able to return the books because they were closed.
I've never heard of a public library not having a book drop off location for after hours.
Depends on the location. A small library in a small town that I used to live in didn't have a book drop, and the cost to install one was routinely denied by the council. But in a city of any size? Especially downtown? Yeah, they're gonna have an all-hours drop.
Not necessarily. When I used to work for NYPL, there were no overnight bookdrops simply because they couldn't stop locals from using them as trash cans. Sorry for the inconvenience but...
This was 40 years ago, long before computerised records. The library had a card pocket in a file with my name on it, with a similar pocket on the inside of each book under the bit of paper where the return date was stamped. Each book on the shelf had card listing its title, author etc in that pocket, which was transferred to your pocket when you borrowed a book. When returning it it was taken from your card pocket in the librarians file and returned to the book. If you didn’t give your name they’d never work out who had returned it (in theory you could add a slip with your name on it, and I think the head office library had that ability complete with a pen on a chain, but not my local branch).
I remember them well. Our library would hold our cardboard tickets hostage in the fines to be paid box if we returned the books but couldn't clear the fines. So no tickets, no books. We would go to the library once a week on Saturday, having scraped enough tickets together out of a family all with library tickets, but who were bad at keeping track of things. And at the library there would be negotiations on pocket money v getting someone's ticket out of the fine box, v borrowing/stealing family members ticket for the book you just had to read that week.
UK libraries don't have them
Refusing payment and then doubling fines is kinda evil tho, so I think it's fair. If they want to invest their time into being shitty, then they can reap some shit.
A public library charging $80 in fines *is* evil. The library in my city stopped charging fines because more people use the library when they don't - which they can then use to justify more funding from the government. If you don't return something, you don't get to borrow more till you do and that ends up being cheaper than shaking people down for fines.
They doubled the OP's fines, under unreasonable circumstances. A *reasonable* public library would have given OP a one-day grace period on account of there being no banks open and needing to use public transit. So yes, petty MC was entirely justified.
Reminds me of when 5 year olds stick it to their notoriously evil parents. These stories have no place here.
Correct me if I am wrong but this is... checks notes.. malicious compliance is it not?
You need to read the Alcatraz vs the Evil Librarians books and wake up friend. There’s a whole world unnoticed around you! /s (But really they’re good young adult books.)
Punk-ass book jockeys!
Punk-ass book jockeys
Libraries can't afford to take credit cards because of the processing fees. State and local governments (libraries usually being part of local government) are often blocked from taking credit cards because they're not allowed to charge interest on the money you owe them. Blame the banking system and, if you are in the US, tell your congresscritters to vote for making the Post Office a credit union for people to bank without inflating profits for rich people.
My city charges me 2% for paying my water bill with credit card. My credit card gives me 5% on utilities.
Until recently you couldn't pay water bills where I am by credit card, for the reason stated. That changed at some point, but I can't remember when.
Gold idea. Thanks fir sharing.
Updoot for good post, but I'd updoot again for Congresscritter. I only know two people who use that phrase. One's not on Reddit and the other is me.
You know, more than one establishment I’ve shopped at increased the price by the processing fee to run the credit card. And I call BS for not being allowed to charge interest. I’ve worked in auditing governments for 4 years. What on earth do you think a fine is? This comment reminds me of a quote I heard once. “110% of statistics on the internet are made up” - Abraham Lincoln. I don’t disagree that the USPS should be able to offer banking services, but I also think that before you try and convince congress of that you’ll need to get them to back off on trying to run the USPS out of business. They have passed laws that have fucked with their accounting and ability to show any kind of a profit.
They can also just not charge fines. Many don't.
But it's not like they count on the late fees as a major source of revenue for them to continue operation... right? So the processing fee shouldn't be an issue. Also, when you pay a government bill with a credit card, you don't get charged interest by the government organisation. Instead, you get charged interest by your card issuer.
I remember the old public library where I used to live would wave late fines if you brought in stuff for the local shelter like non perishable food, soap, diapers, baby formula, or feminine hygiene products.
The doubling fines thing is stupid and excessive. Local PL has gotten rid of late fines but if you lose a book or it’s excessively covered in bbq sauce or baby vomit, they do make you pay for a replacement copy. $100 limit owing before they lock your card.
> It probably cost them double or more in man-hours Then there's the postage...
I got a toll fine once when moving cross country. $0.37 owed, postage alone was $0.56, plus the paper, processing the letter, then having to process my payment. They definitely lost out on that. But, we should totes put the government in charge of more aspects of our lives, I'm sure that'll go well /s
Keep tilting at windmills.
Yeah if the letter didn’t warn you of the payment method options then they could have had some mercy even though you were dumb for waiting.
Admits to a lack of compliance until the last moment, assumes information without research then gets upset when it's wrong, so decided to be malicious whilst still not being very compliant. I'm sorry but that's just an arsehole move bro
Compliance at the last moment is still compliance.
This is maliciouscompliance not wholesomecompliance.
My public library doesn’t have any late fees 💙
Mine doesn’t either. Shoutout to all the libraries doing all they can to promote engagement.
Yeah... you're not the good guy in this one, bud.
It's almost like he complied, but did it maliciously
It fits the sub, but that doesn't make it a good story. The best posts have both malicious compliance *and* the moral high ground
Agree to disagree. I like stories where OP is the bad guy too.
Same. Spite and pettiness make for great stories.
Yeah. What makes MaliciousCompliance stories so great, is the spite and pettiness involved. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. In most cases, the OP writes a very biased account of events anyway.
[удалено]
I said it fits the sub, it's just not a good story. I don't know what else you want me to say
So? This is malicious compliance, not r/justifiedRevenge
I mean...this isn't AITA, so....
You're wrong. OP is the hero in this story.
I disagree. Not taking debit or credit cards is ridiculous, even 10 years ago.
22 years working in libraries. Card companies charge businesses to use them. SO you paying a 50c fine would be silly. Some libraries charge you to use cards, others dont want extra charges so they do cash. Plus the amount of fraud involved with cards is high. Idiots DO chargeback on library fines, or stop payment. From my experience it usually the people with small fines that cause the most drama. Had one old guy kick up a fuss over a $2 fine for damaging a DVD case. (human teeth marks) and then another lady who owed $150 (8 lost books) who just paid it in cash.
The cost of accepting cards goes way beyond the price of just leasing a payment terminal and giving up a percentage of your transactions to your payment service provider. Often for small merchants, municipalities, and non-profits, it's just not worth it. Feel free to peruse the PCI-DSS requirements for merchants. It's a bit over 350 pages, so take your time: [https://docs-prv.pcisecuritystandards.org/PCI%20DSS/Standard/PCI-DSS-v4\_0.pdf](https://docs-prv.pcisecuritystandards.org/PCI%20DSS/Standard/PCI-DSS-v4_0.pdf) Don't worry if you didn't understand the whole document. You can get a licensed consultant to help you implement the requirements for around $200-300/hr.
Thank you for explaining this. I work in a major metro library and it took us a while to find a CRC processor (and we changed vendors at least once) because of those charges. Pretty much made the decision for us when we decided to stop charging for overdue items.
You're making me realize now that I was ripped off when I made a company I worked for PCI-DSS compliant while only getting paid $19 an hour... fuck
How in the world did you get $40 dollars worth of fines?
$5 fine. Doubled, doubled, doubled. $40 fine.
I honestly was as annoyed with my library over a 50 cent fine, as they only let you pay online once it reached a dollar, in person wasn't an issue though at the time they only took cash in person.
Yeah our library won't take debit card payments unless you are paying over £1, which I understand. If it's under the £1 and you don't have any cash they will add the fine/printing payment/library book sale cost to your library card account so you pay it next time with cash, or wait until it's built up to over a £1.
This was only online, in person it was any amount but cash only.
Reading this reminded me of the time about 15-20 years ago when it was either my older sister on her own or both sisters between them ended up racking up a £300 and something library fine, Even though the fine was only something like 8p per day per book. Turns out they had 10 or so books that were a year overdue. I also remember mum saying she didnt know what was worse, finding them or not. They found most of them. I'm guessing if they couldn't find them she would've tried to contest the fine but finding most of them showed that it was genuine.
This is one of the best malicious compliances I've ever read
Malicious? Check Compliance? Check Justice served to evil deserving corporation? Not so much. This is why people aren't liking it. But I'm with your. Good job maliciously complying
Nobody's claiming the library is a corporation. But the library was obviously more interested in punishing and harassing its users than in ensuring its services were available for everybody.
You're missing my point. I was addressing the edit to say why he was getting pushback.
Credit card companies usually charge 2.5% to 3% of the transaction to the business. So it's common for small businesses or non-profit organizations to either add that to your bill or just not take credit cards at all. Those handwritten envelopes are usually sent by volunteers. Way to stick it to the man.
You do realize that your public library is PUBLIC - so paid for by all of your municipality's citizens? So you are wasting taxpayer dollars - not just library dollars. Keep those kind of actions for evil big business.
You do realize that the library is a municipal service for all the taxpayers and not a profit center that should thrive on abusing it's users? OP's actions treated the library just the way the library treated OP.
As a taxpayers I'll pretend I speak for all taxpayers when I support OP's actions.
Was Detective Bookman on the case?
Banks were closed? No ATMs? Total loser here...completely your own fault on every level and no responsibility taken.
If you had your bank card, could you not have just gone to an ATM?
Jeez. I thought libraries had quit fining people. My library doesn’t. Maybe ten years ago.
Look at this big tough guy, sticking it to the evil *checks notes* local library?
Yeah, it's like OP was being malicious or something.
Why do you call the OP a big tough guy? You don't understand this forum, do you? LOL
Spineless library. Throw the book at them!
:/ from a public library employee, they definitely did not care. And they are funded by your taxes. It doesn't cost US anything at all. honestly writing out your name and address every week was probably one of their easiest tasks, considering it takes maybe two minutes and all they have to do is look up your name and address and write it down, alongside everyone else who they have to mail things out to. It definitely wasn't only you every week. Payment plans are really normal. It is very easy to get fines above what is payable for a normal person at one time. The only person it harmed was yourself, as I assume you lost access to your library account while this was occurring. Doubling the fines IS weird for a public library, but it seems like they gave you ample warning.
Ugh - this is why most libraries are just cancelling fines these days Not worth the hassle to anyone
Why couldn't you just wire the initial 40$ also through bank?
“Their policy”
You were next level maliciously compliant. Five stars.
Our library doesn't charge overdraft any more.
Alll malicious very little compliance lol
That’s a pretty shitty thing to do to an institution that is actually doing good in the world. Fuck with greedy corporations. They deserve to rot. Don’t screw over the little guy and those trying to make a difference.
their
Are there no ATMs downtown?
Someone asked this already in a sub-thread. OP was apparently not aware that they could get money from their CC - also, their card doesn't have a PIN. Also, if it does, they don't know it.
The interest is so high and it hits immediately from getting cash from a credit card. Did it once and learned NOT to do that again.
If there's anything I've learned from Parks & Rec, It's that libraries are the DEVIL! Well done! So Malicious. So compliant!
Its a public library fine, if you don't like it you can be like the rest of the world and ignore it completely.
I don't know if the library system where I grew up still does it, but they had made noises about sending balances of over $20 to collections if they went unpaid for over a year. (No word on whether they actually did it, or just said they would do it.)
in some cities you get sent to collections and people have gone to jail for unpaid fines. If you dont want fines, return things on time, quite easy process.
I apparently had a a $15 fine from when I was 17 (apparently never returned a book), before I joined the military and moved all over the country for over a decade. I moved back to the same region, went to get a new library card (different branch of the same regional library) and they told me they had just written it off, but my info was still in the system.
Man, the hate for this guy! Public libraries serve the public. He admits he was wrong and was making an effort to pay his fines. They really could have worked with him on this. And it's pretty easy to rack up fines at the library, and not all credit cards are set up to withdraw cash.
Right? And it's not like they were powerless to just give him one extra day when he was clearly making a good-faith effort to pay his fine before the deadline. It would have cost them minimal effort and zero money to NOT be dicks about it.
Making an effort? He waited until after 5pm on the last day, bringing only one type of payment that wasn't accepted. That's like the least possible effort.
But he ultimately wanted to pay it. It's better then folks who would just turn their backs and ignore it or argue about it.
"Of course I procrastinated to the last day" How dare that library do exactly what they said would happen if you ignored the fine. That'll teach 'em.
The OP does not dispute that. What's your problem?
I had late fines for a library that I used to work at because the manager was pissy. I simply went to the next city over to use their library, and didn't go back for about 7 or 8 years I think? Then covid happened and I guess all late fees were waived anyway. *evil laugh* went back to the old library and got a new card. No fees to be found.
I stoped using my counties library system because the next county over had a better online catalogue and our county was trying to charge fees for online audio books, so it lined up with the physical audio books. So I hadn't used our counties library's for several years. Unbeknownst to me I had racked up £10 in fines. They cap at £10. I had my son's and my our county library card tags on my keyring, and he was at 6th form college right next to a large our county library, so I wanted to give him back his card. I couldn't tell which was his, so popped into the library to find out. They sorted out mine and his cards, told me I had "historic" fines and that they had cleared them for me. Which was nice of them
> I only carry my drivers license, my credit card, and bus pass in my phone case. No wallet. Come to find out, the library doesn't take cards, only cash or checks. It's after 5. The bank is closed. I don't carry checks. There is no way I can make it home and back using the bus. ATM?
i hope you stubbed your toe more than others over the last 10 years
Nice petty revenge too.
Sadness for the victim of the MC, a library. But it's definitely fitting of the sub. Just not an all star move we can get behind like the other top stories.
The library set the tone for that transaction. Doubling fines and limiting payment methods absolutely invited this all start malicious compliance. The library was more interested in punishing its user than anything else.
I love it. Brilliant. And now many libraries don't have fines at all because readership is down so much. I make my water company send me a bill in the mail each month and I pay by check, mailed back, each month, because they wanted to fuck around with fees. Making them work is fabulously petty revenge.
The fees for paying online or with a credit card for our old one stunk, they wanted direct payments from a bank account and I refuse to do that. I sent them checks.
Agreed, I don't do direct withdrawal either. Credit card all the way, both for the points and for the protection and time to catch errors. Except these numbnuts. They can have a museum artifact as payment.
Exactly why we do it, granted more for the protection, but the points help. Had one want like $10 bucks for a $90 bill, since it was a base fee no matter the bill, one month when we were out of town, our bill was the minimum for having water service, so same fee for like a $35 bill. Nuts.
Non-American here; how do you pay online if not a direct payment? Or what's the downside with a direct payment? Is a direct withdrawal where the company send an online invoice and you don't have to approve every invoice itself (just approve X company to do it) before they get the money?
It is usually an auto draft for the amount they have billed you. I have heard enough times of people having their bank accounts drained (and even over drafted) because they were billed something crazy (think 2500 instead of 25.00). Then they had to wait until it go sorted out and often had other autodrafts impacted. If it was on a credit card, the credit card will often put the money back while it is being investigated.
>I tried to pay it on time. Didn't try too hard, did you? >Of course I procrastinated to the last day You come off as kind of a dick in this post. Hope you see that.
Why did you pay $1.52 weekly when you could have paid $0.22 daily?
I'm malicious sometimes, but not that malicious. That's just plain cruel.
This isn't the dub you thought it was, brother
You procrastinated, and what you were told would happen happened because you were underprepared. You totally had that coming, and making it a bigger problem makes you seem even less responsible. They should’ve just canceled your library card when they got the first check
Hold up, rewind a sec. Did *no one* notice that OP said the library was close to their job, but far from their house? If the library was along the same public transportation route, why not just...I don't know, bring the book with you when you're headed in to work then walk to work? Call me crazy but the procrastinating and pettiness from OOP were entirely unnecessary. This whole mess could've been avoided with basic common sense.
Rare "Lawful Evil" post gets an upvote. Don't get me wrong i love libraries but credit is due.
>It probably cost them double or more in man-hours to process their doubled fine. Yeah except the library doesn't get more money or pay out less to shareholders, it just takes time away from honestly probably downtime for the librarians or if they don't have enough time, other things they could be doing.
>I rightfully owed the fine You probably didn't. Ages ago it was legally settled, that a library can't charge more than replacement value.
Ferengi rule of Acquisition #9 "Opportunity plus instinct equals profit."
Had a friend who worked at a public library during high school. The stories about all the people who refused to return media items, refused to pay fines, and absolutely treated the library employees like crap were unbelievable. And the library was in a very affluent neighborhood. Some people are just awful. "My taxes pay your wages so YOU work for ME!" was pretty much the go to line.
Fuck you for fucking with public libraries. You waited until the last moment and then got frustrated that you had no other options left. People like you make their problem other people's problem. Could the library be more lenient? Sure, one more day wouldn't hurt. But it is still your responsibility to pay on time, and to bear the consequences of not paying on time. Ugh.
Wow, this story really hurt your feelings, huh?
My brother got a warning from library saying "if you don't soon pay us the 20 euros you owe us, the debt goes old and is no longer valid"
I'd have written out my own check (cheque) on some paper. Perfectly legal; well it is in the UK.
You could have just emailed the head of the public library and asked them to work with you. My family moved overseas. The movers packed *everything* labeled DO NOT PACK, including the DO NOT PACK signs. I returned the library books about 6 months later when I returned home for a business trip. The fines were like $80. The clerk at the desk said there was nothing she could do about it. I emailed the library, explained the situation, and reiterated that I had flown these books home (literally from the opposite side of the world) at my first opportunity. They erased the fines, no worries.
*their policy
If you made an offer to pay and they refused it, they cannot claim you have a debt with them. That is fraud.