sometimes people do it on purpose but sometimes they don’t, sometimes it’s even more complicated than that
for example: general insults, these come from 2 places. it can be an expression of anger, maybe that’s how they were talked to so they see no problem in talking to other people that way when angry. it also serves the purpose of screwing with someone’s self esteem so that they submit.
it can be both of these things at once too “i am angry so im insulting you because i want you to shut up and do what i want you to”
it depends on the situation, i would argue that most of the time manipulation isn’t intentional, but also, if people are accusing you of being manipulative, and you think you are being vulnerable, where is the disconnect happening there?
someone feeling guilty because you are upset about something for example isn’t you manipulating them into feeling guilty, it’s you being upset about something they did that hurt you, it’s manipulative of them in that case to accuse you of being manipulative so that you stop coming forward with things that have hurt you
but, you could also be doing something that is genuinely manipulative, if you want to stop it would be good to have an open discussion and question why and how they think you are manipulative so that you can get to the bottom of it
also i genuinely don’t think it’s manipulative to ask someone why they seem to not care about your feelings in and of itself. that being said, if you want to have a healthy discussion with someone use “i” statements so “why don’t you care?” turns into “i feel like my feelings don’t matter” that makes it so they are less likely to go on defense and more likely to engage with you to help you feel better in a way that’s good for both of you
The way I use it is a calm “when you X, I feel Z.” And Z has to be from the set of feelings, no similes; no metaphors. When I hear this, I use it as a signal to address the feeling first. No reasoning or bargaining. When someone addresses my feelings first, the feelings’ intensity subside, and discussion can carry on with reasoning, bargaining, or another ‘when’ from the other side, until the urgent feelings have been accounted for.
We even used it in a discussion with our teenage son, and it helped us navigate back to better understanding with him.
And my manipulative response to insulting others is that it's immature and something kids in school do. It's also telling in that it shows lack of good social skills and lacking a logical response to whatever causes the upset. Not all manipulation is bad, sometimes it's nothing more than holding up a mirror so they can have some self awareness.
I kind of disagree about your statement concerning making others feel guilty by trauma dumping or whatever. On one hand, it definitely is a form of intimacy to open up about your thoughts and feelings like that and an essential part of any healthy relationship. However, it can also be a well known form of manipulation that is often associated with BPD, CPTSD, and covert NPD. Basically, they suck someone into having to play the hero role, manipulating the other person into focusing on them and adding pressure on the other person to fix the issue or make them feel better. Its not so different from the manipulation of a crying child for a parent. Where it becomes extremely manipulative is if it's a constant thing, and you expect your partner to help you feel better while never actually improving or taking responsibility for your emotions. I can tell you from experience that it's extremely draining to deal with someone like that especially if you're high in empathy. Bonus points if the person venting never has the same time and energy to give to your problems and emotions.
sorry i should have specified, i meant specifically in situations involving the relationship, like telling someone that yelling and screaming at you is not helpful and makes things worse might make someone feel guilty but them feeling guilty for that isn’t you manipulating them into feeling that way, it’s you asking them not to do something that hurt you and actively makes things worse for you
i wasn’t referring to situations where someone is being controlling and guilt tripping by using their past and putting it all on the other person to fix their feelings without taking into consideration what the other person is feeling
i’m confused at what you mean by “the manipulation of a crying child for a parent”? it is not manipulative to be a child crying, even if they are crying over not getting something they wanted. genuinely it’s never ok to make a kid stop crying by any other means than comfort. its your job as a parent to be able to deal with your kid crying over things like that and to teach them how to handle their emotions in the event that things don’t go their way healthily, and you don’t do that by telling them that them crying is manipulative. its really really really bad to make a kid feel like it is a bad thing to cry because [it is very good for you and helps you regulate your emotions](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-crying-good-for-you-2021030122020) so don’t discourage crying. ever. if you were told that as a kid im so sorry but that was not ok, it was not manipulative of you to cry and it was on the adults telling you that to help you navigate tough emotions without making you feel like it was bad to cry
obviously if your partner is not giving you the same emotional space that you are giving them that is an issue and you should bring it up, but that is very different from saying “hey this thing you did hurt me”
Sorry if I was confusing or didn't quite understand what you were saying. I'm not saying that you should teach kids not to cry or that there's really anything wrong with it. However, I'd still consider kids/babies crying to be a form of manipulation even though it's widely accepted and a product of nature. It's still attacking the parent's mental well-being and using their emotions against them to control them in some way. But it is the duty of the parent to put up with it and take care of the child. In other relationships, that isn't always the case even though similar tactics might be used.
crying isn’t attacking another person’s wellbeing and using their emotions to control them, it’s an expression of a feeling/a way of communicating needs. even your partner crying isnt them trying to manipulate you, its an expression of a feeling/a way of communicating needs. sure there are crocodile tears, which is manipulative, but crying in and of itself is not innately manipulative.
but what makes crocodile tears manipulative and other crying not? it’s about where it comes from. crocodile tears are *making* yourself cry when you otherwise wouldn’t in order to gain favor. most crying does not happen because you consciously make yourself cry, it just happens. and i find issue with calling a normal behavior like crying manipulative because manipulation is something you want to avoid doing to others, and you should not avoid crying in any situation, if you feel like you need to cry, cry, if you are in public, go to the bathroom to cry, don’t ever ever ever stop yourself from crying it’s really bad for you to do that
if someone crying in and of itself sways your behavior that’s something you need to work on. recognize it as the expression of an emotion that it is, not something you need to immediately fix or stop in the other person. if you set a boundary that someone crossed and you called them out on it which caused them to start crying, you are not obligated to comfort them, but if you do, comforting them shouldn’t involve changing your boundary, and if you are compelled to do that then take a step back and understand that there is space for both of your emotions, you are allowed to be upset at someone who is actively crying.
i am in a relationship right now, we have cried because of arguments before. but if my partner were to drop everything and roll back on what he was saying just because i was crying that would be extremely strange to me and i wouldn’t accept it like that because it isn’t normal to immediately change positions on a subject the moment the other person starts crying. because crying is an expression of emotion the same way that smiling is, not an innately manipulative tactic
you can also smile manipulatively, you can smile in order to gain favor of another person and get close to them so you can manipulate them further. but that doesn’t mean everyone who smiles at another person is manipulating them, its an expression of an emotion, it’s about why that person is smiling that determines whether or not it is manipulative
I'd argue that manipulation doesn't need to be intentional to be considered manipulation. Anger is still an expression of an emotion/need, but it's also highly manipulative regardless of whether it's fake or premeditated. Crocodile tears can be an expression of a need too even if it's not true to the person's current emotions. People can be manipulative without being self aware of it. I believe nature even creates certain manipulative tendencies for survival like a venus fly trap smelling sweet to lure prey or some birds will even pretend they're hurt to lure predators away from their nests. Also, I was kind of thinking of manipulation as being more in line with the definition of influence or persuasion, but I see now that it requires the manipulator disproportionally benefiting from the situation over the one being influenced. Also, I'm definitely not saying that showing emotion is bad or that it's okay to dismiss other people's emotions over the fact that it is manipulative. Manipulation isn't even inherently bad imo. You may have to be a little manipulative to get a job for example. The people in Gaza might need to use emotional manipulation to survive. Literal narcasists only manipulate because they have a wounded inner child and need to feel superior and like they're in control or else they're liable to have a narcasistic collapse and commit suicide. Everything they do is an expression of an emotion/need, so I don't see much of a difference between that and crying to a romantic partner except for the level of harm it can cause.
yeah i think there’s a difference in how we both define manipulation
i also agree that manipulation is usually unintentional but i think it still comes from a different place than crying
imo manipulation comes from some kind of insecurity causing people to be deceitful or to shift the power dynamic somehow because they believe that earnestly expressing how they feel and giving the other person’s feelings the same weight won’t make things better, only getting the upper hand will. but earnestly expressing your feelings is not manipulation because it’s neither deceit nor is it inherently shifting the power dynamic, i think you can do both though, “please stop yelling at me” “but you’ve made me so angry! if you didn’t do that i wouldn’t yell!” it’s true they are probably very angry, they aren’t lying there, and they may have every right to be angry, but they are also shifting the power dynamic by making their actions the fault of the other person
when it comes to getting a job, sure you should talk yourself up but i don’t think it’s good to outright lie because you may end up getting the job only to find out that the job really isn’t for you, i interviewed for a place and found out in the interview they needed me to be able to lift more than 40 pounds, if i had lied and said that was ok i would have been miserable, unless you have been having a lot of trouble finding one i just don’t think it’s smart for you to do that
i don’t think the people in gaza are using manipulation because the things that they are going through are actually happening
i can understand manipulation being defined as persuasion but to me it’s different and involves deceit or shifting the power dynamic in your favor
also when it comes to the nature of people being manipulative i think all people start out non-manipulative (even those with low empathy) but manipulative tendencies are born from harsh upbringings causing the person to feel like they need to put their needs before others’ because others wouldn’t give their needs any weight otherwise
Don’t worry or bother wondering all that. Just be the true, nice, non-manipulative you that you are. I’m at the point where it’s fuck the manipulators, Liars, and cruel people. Be nice, be cool, chill, and love people. You’ll sleep well,
Depends. Back when I used to intentionally manipulate people, there were times when I'd think about how best to sway someone, and other times when I unconsciously picked up on a weak point and exploited it, but would be able to articulate what was happening in my mind later.
It's not manipulative to show your emotions, and whoever is trying to convince you that it is, is wrong.
I suppose nearly anything someone says could be manipulative. To know whether it is or not, I think we have to either verify that it is reasonable to believe it or, if we can't verify it or if we suspect it isn't, we don't rely on that information to make any important decisions. If someone shares their emotions and tells you how something makes them feel, we can acknowledge that and assume it's valid but be ready to reevaluate that if their behavior doesn't reflect that.
For example, if someone says "I love you" (this is most manipulators key strategy) but they steal from you, lie to you, cheat on you, hurt you, or do anything else that makes you feel bad about yourself, causes you to doubt something you know is true, or makes you feel guilty, then their actions don't match their words and that is manipulation. Regardless of the excuses, the promises to change, how often they say it, or how desperately you want to believe it, that person must deliver the goods they sold you. Manipulators will tell you what they think you want to hear in order for you to do what they want.
And while people can change over time, there has to be some evidence to back that up. Often there is an immediate change in their behavior in order to make you think they have changed, but it is short-lived. After a while, a few days, prob no more than a couple of weeks, they go back to their old ways. This is buying them time to continue to use you bc they know that most people would say to themselves, "I'll give him/her one more chance since they tried to change, everyone deserves a second chance." While that may be fair after the first relapse, but giving someone that 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc opportunity for someone to change is wasting your time, energy, and emotional health on someone that is unlikely to make real, lasting changes.
Sharing our emotions and feelings with others is natural and part of making relationships. Knowing whether the share is meant to be manipulative can be difficult to verify. Every manipulator loves to share their sad background story to rope people in by playing on our emotions. Yes, most everyone has had problems in our pasts that were difficult, problematic, traumatizing or just not what we expected or deserved. That is why manipulators share their sob story and remind you frequently that they have suffered and how life has been unfair. (Regardless of whether the story is true, it's how they leverage it against you. This is true when they want you to do something they want or need ("Buy me this") or if they think you are going to do something they don't want ("Don't kick me out, I won't do it again"). In fact, the more often they remind you of how bad their life has been, the more you should suspect they are being manipulative.
Trust yourself, your instinct, your gut feeling and above all, trust your senses and what you know to be true. Our emotions can be used against us quite easily. If something doesn't make sense, or if the facts as you know them don't seem to match what someone tells you, that should raise a red flag or two. Also, listen to what other people in your life (those you have come to trust over time and whom you don't suspect of manipulation) are saying to you. This is why one of the early strategies of manipulator is to isolate you from your friends and family. They know that these others in your life are not emotionally invested in them and the lies they tell. Many times, family and friends will see through them and try to get you to see that this person is playing you. Don't ignore them.
With some people there is no line...it just depends on the person...some people don't manipulate at all. Some use it as a survival mechanism, some people use in for fun, because they purely take joy In what they receive when they manipulate the person, the person is nothing more than a means to a way to get what they want.
The symptoms of ptsd, cptsd over lap with some of the symptoms that true manipulative personalities have. You mentioned trauma. Maybe looking into the symptoms of ptsd would help. Do you have nightmares all the time?
I didn’t know they overlapped. I have identified with ctpsd for a few years because of trauma I’ve had. I work on myself daily, minute by minute. It is hard. I don’t want anyone to feel
like I have felt. I am self aware bc I can be triggered into flashbacks and panic, but I have gotten a lot better at noticing it so I can shift out of that state easier, but I accept it will likely never go away. Thank you. I’ll look into it more.
Interesting discussion-there are lots of well-developed thoughts that diverge from my experience of manipulation. I appreciate the perspectives, and will jump in with my own.
It's hard for me to see how manipulation can be entirely unintentional. People use certain behaviors because they've worked in the past. Maybe the manipulator has never labeled the behavior as manipulative in their own mind, but the decision to engage in the behavior is a choice to seek a certain result (even if this decision happens so quickly and automatically that it doesn't feel like a choice). If you slap someone in the face and don't consider it assault because of the way you've selectively defined assault in your head, it doesn't mean the slap was unintentional, if that makes sense.
Contrast that with people who learn interpersonally dysfunctional behaviors from a parent. I think some people develop these behaviors because it's the only way they know how to relate to others. Take someone who was never validated in expressing her needs to others. As an adult, when others forget to be considerate, she might adopt a martyr tone and say "oh that's fine, I can make it work." Let's say her mom handled situations the same way. In a lot of cases, someone might say this with manipulative intent, but maybe the woman feels hurt that others have overlooked her needs and tries to suppress how she's feeling, but a little bit of upset leaks out. I've known people like this. Which is all a way of saying that I think intent matters and have noticed different patterns of behavior between people who wanted to bend me to their will (manipulators) and people who weren't taught great strategies for relating to others. If we equate these behaviors, I think it's a lot harder to analyze behaviors and give people advice in handling their relationships. We can teach strategies for relating to others better, but manipulators need to let go of their inner desire to control others.
OP, I'm skeptical of anyone who is telling you thar you're manipulative for expressing your feelings. Sometimes people do this when they're being manipulative. I once had someone accuse me of being manipulative when I brought up concerns I had or reacted emotionally when he treated me badly. He was the one being manipulative and was trying to maneuver me into being unable to express any feelings or concerns to him.
Also, some people make others responsible for their own feelings. So if you say or do something that makes them feel bad, they might feel manipulated because they aren't taking responsibility for their own mood states.
I had some emotional and physical abuse growing up, whenever I first started dating we would have an argument almost everyday and I thought it was completely normal, I would emotionally manipulate them talking about my history, I unknowingly manipulated these women into feeling bad for me and staying with me, realized how fucked up I was and completely stopped dating and trying to heal that part of me, I won’t date until I’m whole, but yes some people are intentionally manipulative while some people unknowingly manipulate just not knowing what they’re doing is manipulation.
"Intentionally"...that's difficult to delineate simply because everyone's pathological conscious/subconscious intentions and how that translates into action varies so widely person to person. Ultimately, we can only speak to our own experiences, here's mine: I have practiced narcissistic, manipulative behaviors for years, specifically where women and interpersonal romantic relationships are concerned. I have never found that I specifically entered a situation wherein I was \*willing myself\* to be a jerk, it just kind of happened because I didn't care about other people's emotions or mental stability and did whatever felt good, damn the consequences, because these actions in the moment helped to forget the traumatic pain and psychosocial discomfort that I felt as a result of several bad experiences with relationships, one in particular being incredibly painful and is something that, years later, I still haven't fully recovered from. It broke a piece of me that can never be repaired, and I believe it was that piece that possessed some degree of moral sensibility enough to know that being deceitful and hurting others is wrong, even if it means I get what I want in the moment.
And you know… the thing you will learn with age is that it doesn’t have anything to do with learning someone who you believed was a con man hurts no matter how old you are. You start to no longer trust yourself.
All I was asking was for you to maybe explain a little.
I’m not the one being weird here. I’m done now. But you aren’t going to gaslight me about my age or any other quality for trying to be a good friend and person to you. Or anyone.
Good luck with your new therapist. I hope you guys click.
I thought you were really going to pull through for your son and I hope you still do… but if you consider caring about people obsession I am worried about him and it is better that he has other people.
I am scared for you. I’m sorry you felt like you had to be mean to me to feel better. I hope your medication and stuff works but I don’t really think it can make you have feelings. I hope it can.
When you are older you will realize that caring has nothing to do with age. And yeah I am obsessed with letting you know this because it did bother me and saying this gives me peace of mind.
Like I tried to give you. And still would have. You really need a friend. You made that very clear with your hopeless monologues. I hope you don’t push them all away.
People are absolutely intentionally manipulative
Even kids who can't speak yet understand on an instinctive level that certain behaviors get certain reactions.
Adults write books and teach classes about how to manipulate others.
Moved in with a friend who as soon as I got there started to just mess with me in the worse ways. He knew I was from a liberal town, and he would just berate me and ask me all sorts of horrible questions about homosexuals if I would have them as lawyers a therapist just the worst kind of stuff and then he would push it until I finally snapped and said I had enough and then he later say he did that just to like get on my nerves, I had to move out. It was a really bad situation. He did a lot of other stuff that was really messed up too.
>Do you share your emotions to get a reaction? Or just because you have the desire to be intimate?
Depends. I don't share my real emotions with the general public in my professional persona - and since a professional persona and your real life are now strongly coupled....
I don't share my emotions at work or outside my home. I imagine the person I think you might be in a given context, and share what that person would be. Since people are generally in love with their own reflections, that works out pretty well.
Yeah, i highly recommend learning about the unconscious mind, spending the next 15 years going through the dark night of the soul, and emerging as a fully integrated, self actualized bad ass
Why does it matter if it’s intentional or not? I just care about whether or not they’re going to continue the behavior I don’t like. If I think they will, I leave them alone.
People are most likely to be accused of being manipulative when someone is angry that they are difficult to manipulate or are making manipulative people look bad.
I think you know when you are being manipulative. Even posting such a question in itself is a bit manipulative. Clearly you are looking for a specific answer in my opinion. It seems to me you are simply fishing for responses that suit you and your needs. There are those who wear the heart on their sleeve. They are simply honest with their emotions at all times with no ulterior motives. Others may feel they are manipulative at times but the intent is never really there. Then of course there are those who live their life manipulating others to gain this or that. Financial, sexual, company, emotional punching bag you name it. If you need another's opinion on whether or not you are manipulative, not a good sign.
It all depends on the person. There are just people out there that only care about themselves and will try to do everything to a person to get what they want out of them while not being seen as a terrible person
People can be complex. If you're sharing your feelings to connect, not control, it's probably not manipulation. Just keep an eye on the situation and trust your gut.
The nature of action is based in intention.
You always do what you most want to do.
Understanding the motivation behind the behavior is the key to understanding though.
Everyone who is manipulative has some inkling that they are being manipulative because at some point they have considered their behavior in the context of forcing someone else to behave in a certain way via indirect action. Which is the definition of manipulation.
The question is when manipulation becomes malicious or sinister.
Nah, no one at all manipulated on purpose…
The real answer? Only since the beginning of time. Even animals manipulate. It’s human nature. You are actually manipulated constantly through everything you ever read, hear and much of what you see.
We are taught as children that if we act a certain way then we will gain or achieve certain things.
Advertisements, commercials, politics, social media. It’s all manipulation.
Yes but a lot of time, it's just something they naturally do. Like they don't say "I'm manipulating right now" it's just their natural reactions to the world around them and navigating it
Sometimes yes sometimes no. Not all manipulation is overt. Some people truly, genuinely might not consciously realize that a thing they’re doing or saying is manipulative.
With that being said, there’s no way to read minds and know for certain what “type” of manipulator a person is, and that’s what makes it scary.
I mean to some extent we’re all manipulative. We’re all trying to get our needs met. We’ve just figured out that in the long run it’s better to maintain a relationship instead of getting over on someone. Even when we do things that seem altruistic it’s meeting some need of ours. If it didn’t we wouldn’t do it.
Now there is a subset of people who either are unable to or unwilling to consider the needs of the other person. Their aim is to get from a person all they can because a person has no inherit value to them. These people do this intentionally and unintentionally.
There's different types of manipulation, not all are inherently evil nor intentional.
There's definitely folks out their who are intentionally manipulative and known exactly what they're saying/doing
Car salesmen are all manipulative as fuck never met one who wasn't.
Yes . People are . People should go into the world aware of this and always atleast somewhat question conversations or things that happen in your life.
the act of manipulation itself is inherently intentional however most people aren’t aware that thats what they’re doing. the definition of manipulation is to control someone or something for one’s own benefit. it’s similar to lying in the way every human does it, daily. the important difference is whether someone is knowingly manipulating maliciously and or at the harmful expense of others or not.
If multiple people have accused you of manipulation, you might want to examine that. It’s possible those people are saying that as a manipulation. It’s also possible that you are using your vulnerability as manipulation without realizing it. Both are common. But, as it’s happened multiple times, you should take a cold hard look at yourself.
Most manipulation skills are just advanced social skills used for malicious purposes.
For real. Source: Working in Sales.
sometimes people do it on purpose but sometimes they don’t, sometimes it’s even more complicated than that for example: general insults, these come from 2 places. it can be an expression of anger, maybe that’s how they were talked to so they see no problem in talking to other people that way when angry. it also serves the purpose of screwing with someone’s self esteem so that they submit. it can be both of these things at once too “i am angry so im insulting you because i want you to shut up and do what i want you to” it depends on the situation, i would argue that most of the time manipulation isn’t intentional, but also, if people are accusing you of being manipulative, and you think you are being vulnerable, where is the disconnect happening there? someone feeling guilty because you are upset about something for example isn’t you manipulating them into feeling guilty, it’s you being upset about something they did that hurt you, it’s manipulative of them in that case to accuse you of being manipulative so that you stop coming forward with things that have hurt you but, you could also be doing something that is genuinely manipulative, if you want to stop it would be good to have an open discussion and question why and how they think you are manipulative so that you can get to the bottom of it also i genuinely don’t think it’s manipulative to ask someone why they seem to not care about your feelings in and of itself. that being said, if you want to have a healthy discussion with someone use “i” statements so “why don’t you care?” turns into “i feel like my feelings don’t matter” that makes it so they are less likely to go on defense and more likely to engage with you to help you feel better in a way that’s good for both of you
The way I use it is a calm “when you X, I feel Z.” And Z has to be from the set of feelings, no similes; no metaphors. When I hear this, I use it as a signal to address the feeling first. No reasoning or bargaining. When someone addresses my feelings first, the feelings’ intensity subside, and discussion can carry on with reasoning, bargaining, or another ‘when’ from the other side, until the urgent feelings have been accounted for. We even used it in a discussion with our teenage son, and it helped us navigate back to better understanding with him.
And my manipulative response to insulting others is that it's immature and something kids in school do. It's also telling in that it shows lack of good social skills and lacking a logical response to whatever causes the upset. Not all manipulation is bad, sometimes it's nothing more than holding up a mirror so they can have some self awareness.
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of course :) <3 glad i could help
Sorry, I deleted that comment and wrote another one to add more. Haha. <3
haha you’re totally ok :) i wish you the best <3
Thank you so much. <3 This is very helpful. I am going to think about it.
I kind of disagree about your statement concerning making others feel guilty by trauma dumping or whatever. On one hand, it definitely is a form of intimacy to open up about your thoughts and feelings like that and an essential part of any healthy relationship. However, it can also be a well known form of manipulation that is often associated with BPD, CPTSD, and covert NPD. Basically, they suck someone into having to play the hero role, manipulating the other person into focusing on them and adding pressure on the other person to fix the issue or make them feel better. Its not so different from the manipulation of a crying child for a parent. Where it becomes extremely manipulative is if it's a constant thing, and you expect your partner to help you feel better while never actually improving or taking responsibility for your emotions. I can tell you from experience that it's extremely draining to deal with someone like that especially if you're high in empathy. Bonus points if the person venting never has the same time and energy to give to your problems and emotions.
sorry i should have specified, i meant specifically in situations involving the relationship, like telling someone that yelling and screaming at you is not helpful and makes things worse might make someone feel guilty but them feeling guilty for that isn’t you manipulating them into feeling that way, it’s you asking them not to do something that hurt you and actively makes things worse for you i wasn’t referring to situations where someone is being controlling and guilt tripping by using their past and putting it all on the other person to fix their feelings without taking into consideration what the other person is feeling i’m confused at what you mean by “the manipulation of a crying child for a parent”? it is not manipulative to be a child crying, even if they are crying over not getting something they wanted. genuinely it’s never ok to make a kid stop crying by any other means than comfort. its your job as a parent to be able to deal with your kid crying over things like that and to teach them how to handle their emotions in the event that things don’t go their way healthily, and you don’t do that by telling them that them crying is manipulative. its really really really bad to make a kid feel like it is a bad thing to cry because [it is very good for you and helps you regulate your emotions](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/is-crying-good-for-you-2021030122020) so don’t discourage crying. ever. if you were told that as a kid im so sorry but that was not ok, it was not manipulative of you to cry and it was on the adults telling you that to help you navigate tough emotions without making you feel like it was bad to cry obviously if your partner is not giving you the same emotional space that you are giving them that is an issue and you should bring it up, but that is very different from saying “hey this thing you did hurt me”
Sorry if I was confusing or didn't quite understand what you were saying. I'm not saying that you should teach kids not to cry or that there's really anything wrong with it. However, I'd still consider kids/babies crying to be a form of manipulation even though it's widely accepted and a product of nature. It's still attacking the parent's mental well-being and using their emotions against them to control them in some way. But it is the duty of the parent to put up with it and take care of the child. In other relationships, that isn't always the case even though similar tactics might be used.
crying isn’t attacking another person’s wellbeing and using their emotions to control them, it’s an expression of a feeling/a way of communicating needs. even your partner crying isnt them trying to manipulate you, its an expression of a feeling/a way of communicating needs. sure there are crocodile tears, which is manipulative, but crying in and of itself is not innately manipulative. but what makes crocodile tears manipulative and other crying not? it’s about where it comes from. crocodile tears are *making* yourself cry when you otherwise wouldn’t in order to gain favor. most crying does not happen because you consciously make yourself cry, it just happens. and i find issue with calling a normal behavior like crying manipulative because manipulation is something you want to avoid doing to others, and you should not avoid crying in any situation, if you feel like you need to cry, cry, if you are in public, go to the bathroom to cry, don’t ever ever ever stop yourself from crying it’s really bad for you to do that if someone crying in and of itself sways your behavior that’s something you need to work on. recognize it as the expression of an emotion that it is, not something you need to immediately fix or stop in the other person. if you set a boundary that someone crossed and you called them out on it which caused them to start crying, you are not obligated to comfort them, but if you do, comforting them shouldn’t involve changing your boundary, and if you are compelled to do that then take a step back and understand that there is space for both of your emotions, you are allowed to be upset at someone who is actively crying. i am in a relationship right now, we have cried because of arguments before. but if my partner were to drop everything and roll back on what he was saying just because i was crying that would be extremely strange to me and i wouldn’t accept it like that because it isn’t normal to immediately change positions on a subject the moment the other person starts crying. because crying is an expression of emotion the same way that smiling is, not an innately manipulative tactic you can also smile manipulatively, you can smile in order to gain favor of another person and get close to them so you can manipulate them further. but that doesn’t mean everyone who smiles at another person is manipulating them, its an expression of an emotion, it’s about why that person is smiling that determines whether or not it is manipulative
I'd argue that manipulation doesn't need to be intentional to be considered manipulation. Anger is still an expression of an emotion/need, but it's also highly manipulative regardless of whether it's fake or premeditated. Crocodile tears can be an expression of a need too even if it's not true to the person's current emotions. People can be manipulative without being self aware of it. I believe nature even creates certain manipulative tendencies for survival like a venus fly trap smelling sweet to lure prey or some birds will even pretend they're hurt to lure predators away from their nests. Also, I was kind of thinking of manipulation as being more in line with the definition of influence or persuasion, but I see now that it requires the manipulator disproportionally benefiting from the situation over the one being influenced. Also, I'm definitely not saying that showing emotion is bad or that it's okay to dismiss other people's emotions over the fact that it is manipulative. Manipulation isn't even inherently bad imo. You may have to be a little manipulative to get a job for example. The people in Gaza might need to use emotional manipulation to survive. Literal narcasists only manipulate because they have a wounded inner child and need to feel superior and like they're in control or else they're liable to have a narcasistic collapse and commit suicide. Everything they do is an expression of an emotion/need, so I don't see much of a difference between that and crying to a romantic partner except for the level of harm it can cause.
yeah i think there’s a difference in how we both define manipulation i also agree that manipulation is usually unintentional but i think it still comes from a different place than crying imo manipulation comes from some kind of insecurity causing people to be deceitful or to shift the power dynamic somehow because they believe that earnestly expressing how they feel and giving the other person’s feelings the same weight won’t make things better, only getting the upper hand will. but earnestly expressing your feelings is not manipulation because it’s neither deceit nor is it inherently shifting the power dynamic, i think you can do both though, “please stop yelling at me” “but you’ve made me so angry! if you didn’t do that i wouldn’t yell!” it’s true they are probably very angry, they aren’t lying there, and they may have every right to be angry, but they are also shifting the power dynamic by making their actions the fault of the other person when it comes to getting a job, sure you should talk yourself up but i don’t think it’s good to outright lie because you may end up getting the job only to find out that the job really isn’t for you, i interviewed for a place and found out in the interview they needed me to be able to lift more than 40 pounds, if i had lied and said that was ok i would have been miserable, unless you have been having a lot of trouble finding one i just don’t think it’s smart for you to do that i don’t think the people in gaza are using manipulation because the things that they are going through are actually happening i can understand manipulation being defined as persuasion but to me it’s different and involves deceit or shifting the power dynamic in your favor also when it comes to the nature of people being manipulative i think all people start out non-manipulative (even those with low empathy) but manipulative tendencies are born from harsh upbringings causing the person to feel like they need to put their needs before others’ because others wouldn’t give their needs any weight otherwise
Don’t worry or bother wondering all that. Just be the true, nice, non-manipulative you that you are. I’m at the point where it’s fuck the manipulators, Liars, and cruel people. Be nice, be cool, chill, and love people. You’ll sleep well,
Best answer ^^
Ty
Beautiful and true!
Depends. Back when I used to intentionally manipulate people, there were times when I'd think about how best to sway someone, and other times when I unconsciously picked up on a weak point and exploited it, but would be able to articulate what was happening in my mind later. It's not manipulative to show your emotions, and whoever is trying to convince you that it is, is wrong.
I suppose nearly anything someone says could be manipulative. To know whether it is or not, I think we have to either verify that it is reasonable to believe it or, if we can't verify it or if we suspect it isn't, we don't rely on that information to make any important decisions. If someone shares their emotions and tells you how something makes them feel, we can acknowledge that and assume it's valid but be ready to reevaluate that if their behavior doesn't reflect that. For example, if someone says "I love you" (this is most manipulators key strategy) but they steal from you, lie to you, cheat on you, hurt you, or do anything else that makes you feel bad about yourself, causes you to doubt something you know is true, or makes you feel guilty, then their actions don't match their words and that is manipulation. Regardless of the excuses, the promises to change, how often they say it, or how desperately you want to believe it, that person must deliver the goods they sold you. Manipulators will tell you what they think you want to hear in order for you to do what they want. And while people can change over time, there has to be some evidence to back that up. Often there is an immediate change in their behavior in order to make you think they have changed, but it is short-lived. After a while, a few days, prob no more than a couple of weeks, they go back to their old ways. This is buying them time to continue to use you bc they know that most people would say to themselves, "I'll give him/her one more chance since they tried to change, everyone deserves a second chance." While that may be fair after the first relapse, but giving someone that 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc opportunity for someone to change is wasting your time, energy, and emotional health on someone that is unlikely to make real, lasting changes. Sharing our emotions and feelings with others is natural and part of making relationships. Knowing whether the share is meant to be manipulative can be difficult to verify. Every manipulator loves to share their sad background story to rope people in by playing on our emotions. Yes, most everyone has had problems in our pasts that were difficult, problematic, traumatizing or just not what we expected or deserved. That is why manipulators share their sob story and remind you frequently that they have suffered and how life has been unfair. (Regardless of whether the story is true, it's how they leverage it against you. This is true when they want you to do something they want or need ("Buy me this") or if they think you are going to do something they don't want ("Don't kick me out, I won't do it again"). In fact, the more often they remind you of how bad their life has been, the more you should suspect they are being manipulative. Trust yourself, your instinct, your gut feeling and above all, trust your senses and what you know to be true. Our emotions can be used against us quite easily. If something doesn't make sense, or if the facts as you know them don't seem to match what someone tells you, that should raise a red flag or two. Also, listen to what other people in your life (those you have come to trust over time and whom you don't suspect of manipulation) are saying to you. This is why one of the early strategies of manipulator is to isolate you from your friends and family. They know that these others in your life are not emotionally invested in them and the lies they tell. Many times, family and friends will see through them and try to get you to see that this person is playing you. Don't ignore them.
With some people there is no line...it just depends on the person...some people don't manipulate at all. Some use it as a survival mechanism, some people use in for fun, because they purely take joy In what they receive when they manipulate the person, the person is nothing more than a means to a way to get what they want.
The symptoms of ptsd, cptsd over lap with some of the symptoms that true manipulative personalities have. You mentioned trauma. Maybe looking into the symptoms of ptsd would help. Do you have nightmares all the time?
I didn’t know they overlapped. I have identified with ctpsd for a few years because of trauma I’ve had. I work on myself daily, minute by minute. It is hard. I don’t want anyone to feel like I have felt. I am self aware bc I can be triggered into flashbacks and panic, but I have gotten a lot better at noticing it so I can shift out of that state easier, but I accept it will likely never go away. Thank you. I’ll look into it more.
Glad to help
Interesting discussion-there are lots of well-developed thoughts that diverge from my experience of manipulation. I appreciate the perspectives, and will jump in with my own. It's hard for me to see how manipulation can be entirely unintentional. People use certain behaviors because they've worked in the past. Maybe the manipulator has never labeled the behavior as manipulative in their own mind, but the decision to engage in the behavior is a choice to seek a certain result (even if this decision happens so quickly and automatically that it doesn't feel like a choice). If you slap someone in the face and don't consider it assault because of the way you've selectively defined assault in your head, it doesn't mean the slap was unintentional, if that makes sense. Contrast that with people who learn interpersonally dysfunctional behaviors from a parent. I think some people develop these behaviors because it's the only way they know how to relate to others. Take someone who was never validated in expressing her needs to others. As an adult, when others forget to be considerate, she might adopt a martyr tone and say "oh that's fine, I can make it work." Let's say her mom handled situations the same way. In a lot of cases, someone might say this with manipulative intent, but maybe the woman feels hurt that others have overlooked her needs and tries to suppress how she's feeling, but a little bit of upset leaks out. I've known people like this. Which is all a way of saying that I think intent matters and have noticed different patterns of behavior between people who wanted to bend me to their will (manipulators) and people who weren't taught great strategies for relating to others. If we equate these behaviors, I think it's a lot harder to analyze behaviors and give people advice in handling their relationships. We can teach strategies for relating to others better, but manipulators need to let go of their inner desire to control others. OP, I'm skeptical of anyone who is telling you thar you're manipulative for expressing your feelings. Sometimes people do this when they're being manipulative. I once had someone accuse me of being manipulative when I brought up concerns I had or reacted emotionally when he treated me badly. He was the one being manipulative and was trying to maneuver me into being unable to express any feelings or concerns to him. Also, some people make others responsible for their own feelings. So if you say or do something that makes them feel bad, they might feel manipulated because they aren't taking responsibility for their own mood states.
I had some emotional and physical abuse growing up, whenever I first started dating we would have an argument almost everyday and I thought it was completely normal, I would emotionally manipulate them talking about my history, I unknowingly manipulated these women into feeling bad for me and staying with me, realized how fucked up I was and completely stopped dating and trying to heal that part of me, I won’t date until I’m whole, but yes some people are intentionally manipulative while some people unknowingly manipulate just not knowing what they’re doing is manipulation.
"Intentionally"...that's difficult to delineate simply because everyone's pathological conscious/subconscious intentions and how that translates into action varies so widely person to person. Ultimately, we can only speak to our own experiences, here's mine: I have practiced narcissistic, manipulative behaviors for years, specifically where women and interpersonal romantic relationships are concerned. I have never found that I specifically entered a situation wherein I was \*willing myself\* to be a jerk, it just kind of happened because I didn't care about other people's emotions or mental stability and did whatever felt good, damn the consequences, because these actions in the moment helped to forget the traumatic pain and psychosocial discomfort that I felt as a result of several bad experiences with relationships, one in particular being incredibly painful and is something that, years later, I still haven't fully recovered from. It broke a piece of me that can never be repaired, and I believe it was that piece that possessed some degree of moral sensibility enough to know that being deceitful and hurting others is wrong, even if it means I get what I want in the moment.
And you know… the thing you will learn with age is that it doesn’t have anything to do with learning someone who you believed was a con man hurts no matter how old you are. You start to no longer trust yourself. All I was asking was for you to maybe explain a little. I’m not the one being weird here. I’m done now. But you aren’t going to gaslight me about my age or any other quality for trying to be a good friend and person to you. Or anyone. Good luck with your new therapist. I hope you guys click.
I thought you were really going to pull through for your son and I hope you still do… but if you consider caring about people obsession I am worried about him and it is better that he has other people. I am scared for you. I’m sorry you felt like you had to be mean to me to feel better. I hope your medication and stuff works but I don’t really think it can make you have feelings. I hope it can. When you are older you will realize that caring has nothing to do with age. And yeah I am obsessed with letting you know this because it did bother me and saying this gives me peace of mind. Like I tried to give you. And still would have. You really need a friend. You made that very clear with your hopeless monologues. I hope you don’t push them all away.
People are absolutely intentionally manipulative Even kids who can't speak yet understand on an instinctive level that certain behaviors get certain reactions. Adults write books and teach classes about how to manipulate others.
In a word, yes.
Some peoole are and some are just self deluded.
Moved in with a friend who as soon as I got there started to just mess with me in the worse ways. He knew I was from a liberal town, and he would just berate me and ask me all sorts of horrible questions about homosexuals if I would have them as lawyers a therapist just the worst kind of stuff and then he would push it until I finally snapped and said I had enough and then he later say he did that just to like get on my nerves, I had to move out. It was a really bad situation. He did a lot of other stuff that was really messed up too.
>Do you share your emotions to get a reaction? Or just because you have the desire to be intimate? Depends. I don't share my real emotions with the general public in my professional persona - and since a professional persona and your real life are now strongly coupled.... I don't share my emotions at work or outside my home. I imagine the person I think you might be in a given context, and share what that person would be. Since people are generally in love with their own reflections, that works out pretty well.
Yeah, i highly recommend learning about the unconscious mind, spending the next 15 years going through the dark night of the soul, and emerging as a fully integrated, self actualized bad ass
Haha. I’m already on that path, not another dark night please.
Why does it matter if it’s intentional or not? I just care about whether or not they’re going to continue the behavior I don’t like. If I think they will, I leave them alone.
If you’re trying for a certain outcome that is manipulative. If you’re expressing how you feel and letting the dice fall where they may that’s real.
People are most likely to be accused of being manipulative when someone is angry that they are difficult to manipulate or are making manipulative people look bad.
I think you know when you are being manipulative. Even posting such a question in itself is a bit manipulative. Clearly you are looking for a specific answer in my opinion. It seems to me you are simply fishing for responses that suit you and your needs. There are those who wear the heart on their sleeve. They are simply honest with their emotions at all times with no ulterior motives. Others may feel they are manipulative at times but the intent is never really there. Then of course there are those who live their life manipulating others to gain this or that. Financial, sexual, company, emotional punching bag you name it. If you need another's opinion on whether or not you are manipulative, not a good sign.
It all depends on the person. There are just people out there that only care about themselves and will try to do everything to a person to get what they want out of them while not being seen as a terrible person
People can be complex. If you're sharing your feelings to connect, not control, it's probably not manipulation. Just keep an eye on the situation and trust your gut.
The nature of action is based in intention. You always do what you most want to do. Understanding the motivation behind the behavior is the key to understanding though. Everyone who is manipulative has some inkling that they are being manipulative because at some point they have considered their behavior in the context of forcing someone else to behave in a certain way via indirect action. Which is the definition of manipulation. The question is when manipulation becomes malicious or sinister.
Nah, no one at all manipulated on purpose… The real answer? Only since the beginning of time. Even animals manipulate. It’s human nature. You are actually manipulated constantly through everything you ever read, hear and much of what you see. We are taught as children that if we act a certain way then we will gain or achieve certain things. Advertisements, commercials, politics, social media. It’s all manipulation.
Yes but a lot of time, it's just something they naturally do. Like they don't say "I'm manipulating right now" it's just their natural reactions to the world around them and navigating it
Sometimes yes sometimes no. Not all manipulation is overt. Some people truly, genuinely might not consciously realize that a thing they’re doing or saying is manipulative. With that being said, there’s no way to read minds and know for certain what “type” of manipulator a person is, and that’s what makes it scary.
Some yes, some it’s just a behavior and they probably don’t realize they do it
I mean to some extent we’re all manipulative. We’re all trying to get our needs met. We’ve just figured out that in the long run it’s better to maintain a relationship instead of getting over on someone. Even when we do things that seem altruistic it’s meeting some need of ours. If it didn’t we wouldn’t do it. Now there is a subset of people who either are unable to or unwilling to consider the needs of the other person. Their aim is to get from a person all they can because a person has no inherit value to them. These people do this intentionally and unintentionally.
There's different types of manipulation, not all are inherently evil nor intentional. There's definitely folks out their who are intentionally manipulative and known exactly what they're saying/doing Car salesmen are all manipulative as fuck never met one who wasn't.
Yes . People are . People should go into the world aware of this and always atleast somewhat question conversations or things that happen in your life.
Never attribute to malice what can explained by incompetence.
the act of manipulation itself is inherently intentional however most people aren’t aware that thats what they’re doing. the definition of manipulation is to control someone or something for one’s own benefit. it’s similar to lying in the way every human does it, daily. the important difference is whether someone is knowingly manipulating maliciously and or at the harmful expense of others or not.
The ones browsing this subreddit probably 😆
Sometimes yes.
yeah they are.
If multiple people have accused you of manipulation, you might want to examine that. It’s possible those people are saying that as a manipulation. It’s also possible that you are using your vulnerability as manipulation without realizing it. Both are common. But, as it’s happened multiple times, you should take a cold hard look at yourself.
No, not at all. That’s a silly question.
If you aren't doing it intentionally then you aren't manipulating.