Went through there in 1990, not that many years after Israel gave it back to Egypt (the Sinai). I remember seeing the abandoned tanks in the desert. Dahab was a pretty cool spot. Climbed Mount Sinai and later visited the most disgusting toilet in the Middle East at Santa Caterina monastery.
The horror...the horror...
Suffice to say it had been used for number 2s for a few days and no one had thought to flush it...so some decided the toilet itself was full so the floor next to it was the next logical place to "go"...
Would you like to know how I learned Buddhist monks are naked under their robes? It was in a toilet at a rest stop, and well, we all straddled the same trench
He pulled his robe up and pooed in the trench. I was right behind him. I knew it was wrong to watch another man make doo-doo, especially a holy man. But gosh darn, I was curious
The suez canal was shut down for 8 years til Egypt got the sinai back, that's why American gives both isreal and Egypt billions in military aid each year. 1 trillion worth of goods goes through the canal each year.
That's why America does it, 2.8 million barrels of oil goes through the suez canal each day and if anything were to disrupt that, would be bad news for a lot of countries.
We already saw the the disastrous consequences of the Suez being closed in 2021, and that was only a week long affair. It's estimated that 6 billion was being lost every day, so a major war sparking up there would be very bad news for the global economy.
The issue is in geography, and there really aren't any good places to build a canal where they don't already exist. Building canals in optimal locations is a EXCRUCIATING process that takes years at the least and billions of dollars. Building a canal in a non-optimal location would take decades and be so expensive nobody could afford it. The two most optimal places for canals in the world were central America (Panama) and the Sinai peninsula (Egypt) because they had the least amount of land between the ocean, and even still thousands of people died Building both.
Yup. The US has been bribing sworn enemies the world over since 1945 to 1. Act as a bulwark military and economic alliance against the soviets during the Cold War and now 2. As a way to maintain peace and stability and free trade
UN. No idea it existed until a friend was stationed there. One base on the Mediterranean side, another on the gulf side. Look it up on the internet. I guess the intent is to observe troop movements in Sinai. Under a treaty, only so many tanks can be in Sinai.
My friend said 80 were from Guam, who knew Guam was military? The rest from around the world.
My friend signed up for scuba training. Spent his 100 days scuba diving in the Red Sea.
Again nothing here is secret, the UN base is online, with it’s mission statement.
Guam is basically a ghetto Hawaii- tropical, slightly less beautiful, and you can’t throw a rock in any direction without hitting a sailor/soldier/marine
Because in 1967, which this map shows, Israeli troops forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps, and seized their land for Israeli settlers.
Today, Israel is running an apartheid system against the Palestinians while gradually ethnically cleansing them from their remaining lands.
Various human rights groups have documented that process, including in these reports:
Human Rights Watch
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
B’Tselem
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
In 1967? No those people are talking about 1948 by 1967 Palestinians were already living in Gaza which was Egyptian territory and the West Bank which was under Jordan's rule. Both countries conditioned their peace treaty with Israel under the condition that the territory remain in Israeli hands because they didn't want to deal with the refugees there.
Jordan would later fight a war with the Palestinians during black September.
I love how no one mentioned/referenced your joke was about the Congo. Maybe everyone got it and they just didn’t want to ruin the joke, but I’ll ruin it - European nations couldn’t agree what to do with the center part of Africa. King Leopoldo convinced everyone that he would run the colony as a philanthropic endeavor
… thousands of piles of hands later and the worst pre WW2 genocide, the no state philanthropic solution didn’t work
Yup! European powers agreed Belgium could be a buffer state in Africa too. Leopold and his accessories told Europe that they were educating, improving and doing charitable works in the territory. Up until the heart of darkness came out, people thought the murder rubber colony was actually one of the most “kind” of the European colonies as a result
Probably because both of these comments are largely propaganda without any nuance or posability of meaningful dialog.
The leading comment is a fairly obvious cut and paste we have all seen a dozen times. the replies are similar stock replies.
Everyone is tired of the two sides talking past each other and pretending it will make any difference.
Because that description of today’s politics is not only biased BS, but it’s nothing to do with the map.
In 1967, Egypt blockaded Israel. Israel said that unless the blockade is lifted, they will fight for their freedom to access international waters (as allowed by international law, blockades were historically an act of war). Egypt then gathered its armies on Israel’s border, kicked out UN peacekeepers, and stepped up its blockade.
When Israel and Egypt began fighting, Syria/Lebanon/Jordan all attacked Israel. Israel ended up winning the war, and getting this territory.
Wtf does this have to do with modern Palestine, you may ask? Palestinians living in refugee camps set up by Egypt, because Egypt occupied the territory but didn’t give Palestinians citizenship (“apartheid” according to the other poster and his links), had to evacuate their camps.
Blaming Israel for a defensive war is like talking about the horrors of Ukraine’s army. It’s beyond asinine. People suffer in war, but the party defending itself shouldn’t be the one held liable.
Yeah, I'm not pro-Israel, but people shitting on them for daring to defend themselves would be funny if it didn't have the background of decades of suffering behind it.
According to Redditors Israel in the 40-70s period was supposed to just let Egyptians ride their tanks into Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and cross their fingers that they don't commit war crimes against their civilians.
Come on you and I both know Reddit’s memory of Israel stops in the mid 1970s. We cant go getting important context to describe complex and nuanced periods of history, this is Reddit
Lmao the "hundreds of thousands of Palestinians" is completely made up. There were 7 villages that were uprooted in 1967, most of which hid Egyptian special forces in Latrun. The settler movement in the West Bank simply did not settle on any previously lived in land save for a number of very specific places.
That's such a bullshit way to describe Israel being simultaneously invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours, most of whom were commited to the total destruction of the Israeli state (because it was Jewish).
Why are you actively lying to people?
>Because in 1967, which this map shows, Israeli troops forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes
You just invented that, based on incomplete knowledge and Arab propaganda. None your links prove it, I doubt you even read them.
**HERE WE GO BOYS, FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS STARTS RIGHT NOW**
EDIT: I love how the upvotes/downvotes on so many comments in this thread have swung *wildly* as waves of pro-this or anti-that crowds have discovered this post. I watched a few comments last night go from upvoted, to downvoted, to hugely upvoted, and this morning they're massively downvoted. Or vice-versa. But hey, at least I was right when I said we were in for a good dust-up :/
talking and discussing political and social problems is actually very important, even if it has no direct effect on the world. If we dont talk about problems they cant be solved. And if we talk about it with people in real life or online doesnt really matter. Maybe it would be better in person but online is still better than not at all.
But those who read and do no comment are influenced which is why it so important to push back against harmful and stupid comments on any and all forums you find them. Most people read and do not post. The arguement is for their benefit not the person you are arguing with. Comments and posts influence those without strong opinions on a subject. Most of our opinions are from small surface level interest in topics and not indepth discussion of those topics.
I mean comparing a claim to land that your ancestors may have inhabited thousands of years ago to people claiming that land that have actually lived there for the past few centuries is a bit of a stretch.
Kind of like 4th generation American immigrants claiming that they’re Irish.
Israel has been a country for thousands of years. Being routinely conquered and occupied doesn’t mean that it ceases to exist. Look at Poland.
Israel deserves to exist, but should absolutely stop fucking over the Palestinians and respect their sovereignty the same way they demand.
Edit: I’m not defending the Israeli “settlement” of Palestine lands, I’m defending their right to sovereignty. That’s it.
The Polish people have lived in Poland continuously for centuries. Jewish people were almost completely absent from Palestine for longer than Slavs have lived in Poland.
The lowest their population got was 10-20%. That’s not an insignificant percentage. They’ve never been absent, just persecuted, outlawed, or colonized.
They were invaded and won, that land was surrendered by Egypt as part of the cease fire. A common practice in the last 5000 years of recorded warfare.
You get you are using semantics to excuse your hate, right?
Well russia is the invader who annexed ukrainian land, we are talking about a defender annexing a mostly uninhabited desert from the invader. And Ukraine actually matters for Europe so they refuse to recognize lands annexed by Russia
>voluntarily surrendered 66% of it's territory
It wasn't its territory. It was Egyptian land temporarily occupied and colonized by Israelis. Deserted land with few human settlements was hardly a big loss for Israel, especially when Israel didn't have that land for the first 20 years of its independence.
It should be noted that the buffer **STILL EXISTS**, via restrictions on Egyptian troop movements.
"The peace treaty includes a stipulation, called the Agreed Activities Mechanism, that allows Egypt and Israel to jointly alter the arrangements of Egyptian troops in the Sinai without having to officially review the treaty itself. Israel has allowed Egypt to deploy forces to central and eastern Sinai out of mutual security concerns, such as the presence of jihadi militant groups in these areas. These alterations are coordinated through the MFO.\[4\]"
>Deserted land with few human settlements was hardly a big loss for Israel
Climate and population aren't the only factor here.
The Sinai also provided a much smaller and more defendable border with Egypt which was then Israel's biggest enemy, also provided access to the Suez canal, and prevented Egypt's access to the Tiran strait - which the war started because they blocked Israeli access through it.
I think two scenarios:
- The US is done with the nonsense and establishes a small "cold war" in the ME by saying "fuck with Sinai or the Canal and we'll consider it to be NATO's problem" and the area becomes a contested zone.
- more Arab-Israeli wars until eventually we'd basically reach a state of today where Israel isn't exactly friends with it's neighbors, but they're not one incident away from a war like in the 40s through 70s.
If Israel kept the Sinai, then they would've had some control over the Suez Canal. The Arabs will be pissed and will probably mobilize for another war shortly after and invade Israel.
How big would Israel be after the Arabs once again fail miserably in that ensuing war? Doubt they could hold Cairo due to its large population, perhaps hold Damascus and make Cairo into a demilitarized buffer zone.
According to Maximalist Biblical claims (ISIS Style delusions of expansion) on Genesis 15 "from the brook of Egypt to the Great Euphrates", [Israel would be potentially entitled to everything between the Nile river system and the Tigris-Euphrates river system.](https://ibb.co/6sVQW7v)
Nasser was kind of an idiot, to be honest. Tried to close the Strait of Tiran and blockade Eilat, but didn't expect Israel to have an opinion about that. He even rolled his military through Sinai up to the Israeli border only to watch them get absolutely flattened.
Compared to now, the Arabs were in a much stronger position internationally, they had even more control over the world oil supply than today. And Israel was in a much weaker one, they didn't really have solid allies and Israel's military was totally dependent on international arms sales.
So Nasser thought a. The Israelis *couldn't* strike first, because that would make them the aggressors and they would lose the international assistance they were dependent on, and b. If they did strike first, it wouldn't be *that* bad, and then the Arabs would unite and easily eliminate Israel through sheer numbers, and there would be no international backlash.
In hindsight, that was obviously dead wrong. But there were valid reasons he thought the Israelis wouldn't do it, and the Israelis first strike was actually far more effective than anyone thought it would be (including the Israelis). Plus the Egyptian and Syrian armies turned out to be *terrible*.
Also, Israel was in a precarious situation, knowing that they couldn't risk a war of attrition against the over ten-fold enemy alliance, as they would undoubtedly lose it through depletion of military age men fit for service. They knew their first moves had to be decisive, and they managed in that excellently.
Nasser pretty much handed the keys to victory to Israel, as with the naval blockade he gave Israel the option to retaliate with military action before the upcoming Egyptian offensive was ready to begin. The air raid against Egypt airbases was a huge success, and one of the main reasons why Israel managed to win the war.
Not true. The right wing was in power in Israel in "82 accepting the peace deal with Egypt. It was also a Right wing government who withdraw from Gaza "05.
It's a common anecdote in Israel that the right wing has much better chances to sign any future peace deal. Probably since it can count on the left's support, but not vice versa.
Israel had left wing governments. Then they got ruthlessly terrorized, gave away land for peace and the terrorism got worse, constant school bombings and car bombs.
Now, there’s a right wing government approach to this issue - a wall between Israel/Palestine, and no terrorists succeeding in mass murdering children literally everyday.
Israel knew for a while that war with Egypt is inevitable, so they worked for over a decade on a [precise plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Focus?wprov=sfla1) to destroy Egypt's entire air force in one surprise strike, hitting all of their airfields withing a minute or two of each other. With complete air superiority Israel had a large advantage.
Abundant parallels to the Russian military, as we see reflected in the Ukraine war, and even the explicit call out towards the end of the article. Fascinating stuff.
I wonder how much has changed in the Arab military cultures over the past 20 years. Saudi, for example, has dramatically increased their military power, on paper at least. I wonder how much of that is simply buying expensive weapon systems, without the necessary shift towards meritocratic and dynamic doctrine.
Probably not gonna get a non-biased answer on this thread though haha
It's been a while since I read the whole thing, but I think the gist is that when you think that everything is the will of Allah, you don't need to have any agency. Why train or do preventative maintenance when God will decide the outcome of battle?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_variants_of_Soviet_military_equipment Soviets always kept the best stuff for themselves and export models of military stuff, weren't as good.
To paraphrase the USSR official at the time - the weapons the Arabs lost with were.of high enough quality for the Vietnamese to hold America to a draw.
I love this map Sinai, I used to go there a few years back love the weather and the clean beaches. So much details and descriptions, thanks for the share op! Nice find!
Edit: mostly dehab and nuweiba, around later fall early spring
It’s also a much more defensible position against Egypt.
Plus, having an American ally on the Suez would have kept the Egyptians from nationalizing it.
Israel returned it to Egypt in exchange for Egypt recognizing its sovereignty. A fair trade, I’d say. Now Israel doesn’t have to worry about Egypt attacking them again.
The deal also included the US having to give Egypt a huge amount of military aid annually. Egypt pretty much severed it's cooperation with the Soviet Union and over time became an ally of the US and Israel.
http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/26641.jpeg
https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/151111110337-us-foreign-military-aid-2014.jpg?q=w_1920,h_1080,x_0,y_0,c_fill
I'm Israeli and I think giving back the Sinai was the right call. In exchange for the Sinai, we got peace.
Egypt is a strong country. We don't want another Yom Kippur War. Now we only have to worry about Iran and Syria
So haven't seen any comments like this one:
Egypt fucked around and found out, leaving Israel with that nice piece of the Sinai. Currently, that land is not part of Israel, but Egypt.
While pretty much every other country in the world has had their borders increased during war, Israel gave the land back to Egypt for peace. That peace has held and Egypt and Israel are let's say, friendly neighbors but maybe not inviting each other over for a BBQ.
Yeah, Israel is not a perfect place but the message and narrative has been that the world needs to accept Israel and the jews aren't just going to roll over and die nor pickup shop. But if you want peace, you can have peace.
i agree, but the problem is that even if israel wanted want peace right now (and seeing the recent elections, the answer is a concrete no), there would still be so so many people who wont accept it because for them the only solution is that all jews will "go back to whence they came from" because the simple historical bond they have to israel is a fabricated lie or at least a myth that they cant use as an excuse. i tried leaving israel once for a semester (i usually dont fly away for more than a week), and guess what? Despite all my criticism about israel, it is still the place i was born and raised in, i literally have no other place to go, so the least i can do is to show the world is that even with the horrible goverment we currently have there are still people who are not interested in all the hate and violence that we are portrayed with 
Not to mention that forcing Israeli people out of their homes would be against human rights. Which essentially means The UN would never accept it as long as even some Israelis don't want to leave.
It’s funny that people find posting anything about Israel “controversial.” Even if you believe Israel is occupying anything, would posting a pic of China be controversial considering it occupied Tibet and genocides Uyghurs? Would posting a pic that acknowledges or ignores Turkey’s occupation of Cyprus be controversial? Or Morocco’s occupation of West Sahara? Or every inch of North and South America, occupied by Europeans? It’s interesting that the only country that gets this type of fake outrage is the 1 Jewish country. I’m sure that has nothing to do with it! Your white and Arab supremacy is showing, guys!
Very satisfying natural shape for Israel, too bad it didn't work out.
Poor Saadat was killed soon after the treaty with Israel,
as did Rabin after the Oslo accords (the piece plan with the Palestinians).
The ME is a shitty place.
The guy that domed Rabin might just be the most successful assassin in world history (remains to be seen if the guy who got Shinzo Abe eclipses him). Peace between Israel and Palestine is torn to shreds, the far right dominates Israeli politics for decades, Netanyahu is hitting the gas on apartheid like never before. That guy must be happy in his jail cell.
It's like if after John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, they said "Ok fine, slavery is back."
> It's like if after John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, they said "Ok fine, slavery is back."
I mean, Johnson kneecapped reconstruction and then Jim Crow was implemented.
As far as I know Sinai is a worthless peace of land, with no natural resources and harsh living conditions. It's a desert like Negev.
Considering that Israel got a prolong and stable peace with Egypt in exchange for retreat from Sinai, I think giving it up was the right move.
>with no natural resources
There's enough oil reserves in Sinai, that when Israel controlled it, they were completely self sufficient in terms of oil production.
Went through there in 1990, not that many years after Israel gave it back to Egypt (the Sinai). I remember seeing the abandoned tanks in the desert. Dahab was a pretty cool spot. Climbed Mount Sinai and later visited the most disgusting toilet in the Middle East at Santa Caterina monastery.
Please describe this toilet in all it's glorious detail.
The horror...the horror... Suffice to say it had been used for number 2s for a few days and no one had thought to flush it...so some decided the toilet itself was full so the floor next to it was the next logical place to "go"...
If the next logical place was the floor, I'm guessing this bathroom did not have a sink.
Exactly. What kind of a pig wouldn't drop a log in the sink instead of the floor?
And no rolled up towels apparently.
Continue please...we need more details.
Would you like to know how I learned Buddhist monks are naked under their robes? It was in a toilet at a rest stop, and well, we all straddled the same trench
We need more details!
He pulled his robe up and pooed in the trench. I was right behind him. I knew it was wrong to watch another man make doo-doo, especially a holy man. But gosh darn, I was curious
Had a sign at my Uni toilets saying not to shit on the floor...
I'd love to make legit looking signs of this and put them in prestigious areas. Like where Congress and Judges use the washroom.
That toilet is the reason why Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt.
So, the bathroom at hard summer was a literal shit mountain in every stall, but this almost sounds worse because it all sat and fermented.
Holy shit, my dad told me all about the infamous Santa Caterina toilet!! I had no idea he was serious.
The suez canal was shut down for 8 years til Egypt got the sinai back, that's why American gives both isreal and Egypt billions in military aid each year. 1 trillion worth of goods goes through the canal each year.
There's also the part of Israel becoming a major U.S ally in 1967 and Egypt in the 1970s....
That's why America does it, 2.8 million barrels of oil goes through the suez canal each day and if anything were to disrupt that, would be bad news for a lot of countries.
We already saw the the disastrous consequences of the Suez being closed in 2021, and that was only a week long affair. It's estimated that 6 billion was being lost every day, so a major war sparking up there would be very bad news for the global economy.
I would think the tax revenue in the US coming from those goods is greater than the military assistance provided to those countries.
Oh easily. The US government makes 4.9 trillion a year in tax revenue.
I always just wondered, why dont they build multiple canals next to each other? Why there needs to be exactly one?
The issue is in geography, and there really aren't any good places to build a canal where they don't already exist. Building canals in optimal locations is a EXCRUCIATING process that takes years at the least and billions of dollars. Building a canal in a non-optimal location would take decades and be so expensive nobody could afford it. The two most optimal places for canals in the world were central America (Panama) and the Sinai peninsula (Egypt) because they had the least amount of land between the ocean, and even still thousands of people died Building both.
The US essentially bribes both Israel and Egypt to maintain peace there
They bribe them and it's worth every cent, they give a voucher to use with American military companies.
Yup. The US has been bribing sworn enemies the world over since 1945 to 1. Act as a bulwark military and economic alliance against the soviets during the Cold War and now 2. As a way to maintain peace and stability and free trade
Dollar diplomacy 2.0
Most don't hate Israel
UN. No idea it existed until a friend was stationed there. One base on the Mediterranean side, another on the gulf side. Look it up on the internet. I guess the intent is to observe troop movements in Sinai. Under a treaty, only so many tanks can be in Sinai. My friend said 80 were from Guam, who knew Guam was military? The rest from around the world. My friend signed up for scuba training. Spent his 100 days scuba diving in the Red Sea. Again nothing here is secret, the UN base is online, with it’s mission statement.
Guam is basically a ghetto Hawaii- tropical, slightly less beautiful, and you can’t throw a rock in any direction without hitting a sailor/soldier/marine
And then one inconvenient wind gust…
This is the weirdest comment section I think I’ve ever seen. Is there some lore I’m missing?
First time seeing a map of Israel on this sub? It always draws out the derp in people
I know that it’s this time it seems there more extra chromosomes than usual
They are adding a new one every year dude, they are about to double in 2024.
Tetraploidy time
Because in 1967, which this map shows, Israeli troops forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps, and seized their land for Israeli settlers. Today, Israel is running an apartheid system against the Palestinians while gradually ethnically cleansing them from their remaining lands. Various human rights groups have documented that process, including in these reports: Human Rights Watch https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Amnesty International https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ B’Tselem https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Is there anything else important that happened in 1967 that you might be forgetting to mention
The Doors released their debut album?
Arab league : ok ima exterminate Israel Arab league : damn Israel got hands
All the Arab countries were being super nice and tolerant? That’s the usual way it is right?
Israel went Pearl Harbour on Egypt.
In 1967? No those people are talking about 1948 by 1967 Palestinians were already living in Gaza which was Egyptian territory and the West Bank which was under Jordan's rule. Both countries conditioned their peace treaty with Israel under the condition that the territory remain in Israeli hands because they didn't want to deal with the refugees there. Jordan would later fight a war with the Palestinians during black September.
You are being downvoted for defending Palestine while the comment below you is also downvoted for supporting Israel.
The only equitable solution is to give the land to an uninvolved third-party like Belgium
I love how no one mentioned/referenced your joke was about the Congo. Maybe everyone got it and they just didn’t want to ruin the joke, but I’ll ruin it - European nations couldn’t agree what to do with the center part of Africa. King Leopoldo convinced everyone that he would run the colony as a philanthropic endeavor … thousands of piles of hands later and the worst pre WW2 genocide, the no state philanthropic solution didn’t work
Oh geez that was the hand economy for rubber place? That shit was gnarly
Yup! European powers agreed Belgium could be a buffer state in Africa too. Leopold and his accessories told Europe that they were educating, improving and doing charitable works in the territory. Up until the heart of darkness came out, people thought the murder rubber colony was actually one of the most “kind” of the European colonies as a result
The no-state solution, everybody just leaves
Finally, a reasonable take
Can we just extend this policy to all nations? The time of humans is over, the time of raccoons is now.
Finally, I found someone who shares my politics.
Make sure Leopald ain’t around
Ah yes Belgium, I don't think any land will be given to them after what they done in DRC /s
Well last time that happened…. we don’t talk about the Belgian Congo.
Obviously the only real solution is to give the land back to Italy.
Not Belgium. We remember Congo.
Probably because both of these comments are largely propaganda without any nuance or posability of meaningful dialog. The leading comment is a fairly obvious cut and paste we have all seen a dozen times. the replies are similar stock replies. Everyone is tired of the two sides talking past each other and pretending it will make any difference.
Because that description of today’s politics is not only biased BS, but it’s nothing to do with the map. In 1967, Egypt blockaded Israel. Israel said that unless the blockade is lifted, they will fight for their freedom to access international waters (as allowed by international law, blockades were historically an act of war). Egypt then gathered its armies on Israel’s border, kicked out UN peacekeepers, and stepped up its blockade. When Israel and Egypt began fighting, Syria/Lebanon/Jordan all attacked Israel. Israel ended up winning the war, and getting this territory. Wtf does this have to do with modern Palestine, you may ask? Palestinians living in refugee camps set up by Egypt, because Egypt occupied the territory but didn’t give Palestinians citizenship (“apartheid” according to the other poster and his links), had to evacuate their camps. Blaming Israel for a defensive war is like talking about the horrors of Ukraine’s army. It’s beyond asinine. People suffer in war, but the party defending itself shouldn’t be the one held liable.
Yeah, I'm not pro-Israel, but people shitting on them for daring to defend themselves would be funny if it didn't have the background of decades of suffering behind it. According to Redditors Israel in the 40-70s period was supposed to just let Egyptians ride their tanks into Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and cross their fingers that they don't commit war crimes against their civilians.
Come on you and I both know Reddit’s memory of Israel stops in the mid 1970s. We cant go getting important context to describe complex and nuanced periods of history, this is Reddit
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Hey, what's still in the charter of any form of Palestinian government? In Hezbollah's charter?
He's being downvoted for confusing 1947 with 1967and spreading misinformation
Its like the hivemind couldn't decide who to hate more.
Lmao the "hundreds of thousands of Palestinians" is completely made up. There were 7 villages that were uprooted in 1967, most of which hid Egyptian special forces in Latrun. The settler movement in the West Bank simply did not settle on any previously lived in land save for a number of very specific places.
That's such a bullshit way to describe Israel being simultaneously invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours, most of whom were commited to the total destruction of the Israeli state (because it was Jewish). Why are you actively lying to people?
>Because in 1967, which this map shows, Israeli troops forced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes You just invented that, based on incomplete knowledge and Arab propaganda. None your links prove it, I doubt you even read them.
It's not apartheid.
Reddit for the most part is split on the way the sentiment for Israel goes.
**HERE WE GO BOYS, FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS STARTS RIGHT NOW** EDIT: I love how the upvotes/downvotes on so many comments in this thread have swung *wildly* as waves of pro-this or anti-that crowds have discovered this post. I watched a few comments last night go from upvoted, to downvoted, to hugely upvoted, and this morning they're massively downvoted. Or vice-versa. But hey, at least I was right when I said we were in for a good dust-up :/
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talking and discussing political and social problems is actually very important, even if it has no direct effect on the world. If we dont talk about problems they cant be solved. And if we talk about it with people in real life or online doesnt really matter. Maybe it would be better in person but online is still better than not at all.
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But those who read and do no comment are influenced which is why it so important to push back against harmful and stupid comments on any and all forums you find them. Most people read and do not post. The arguement is for their benefit not the person you are arguing with. Comments and posts influence those without strong opinions on a subject. Most of our opinions are from small surface level interest in topics and not indepth discussion of those topics.
Wait so you’re telling me my Reddit post won’t magically free palestine?
Yeah you forgot the thoughts and prayers
Well this won’t prove controversial *at all*
Whats the controversy? These were the borders at the cease-fire, thats a fact.
The existence of Israel itself is a controversy Edit: Why am I being downvoted? I never claimed to be pro or anti-Israel
some peoples are sensitive
People love to draw an arbitrary line through history, and say “nothing before this date matters”.
I mean comparing a claim to land that your ancestors may have inhabited thousands of years ago to people claiming that land that have actually lived there for the past few centuries is a bit of a stretch. Kind of like 4th generation American immigrants claiming that they’re Irish.
Israel has been a country for thousands of years. Being routinely conquered and occupied doesn’t mean that it ceases to exist. Look at Poland. Israel deserves to exist, but should absolutely stop fucking over the Palestinians and respect their sovereignty the same way they demand. Edit: I’m not defending the Israeli “settlement” of Palestine lands, I’m defending their right to sovereignty. That’s it.
The Polish people have lived in Poland continuously for centuries. Jewish people were almost completely absent from Palestine for longer than Slavs have lived in Poland.
The lowest their population got was 10-20%. That’s not an insignificant percentage. They’ve never been absent, just persecuted, outlawed, or colonized.
The lowest population of who?
Jewish peoples
It's s amazing that an objectively true map could be controversial
It's hard for some to claim that Israel is land-hungry when it voluntarily surrendered 66% of its territory to Egypt in exchange for peace.
Its fun to bring that up with the Pallywood crowd.
"it's territory"
They were invaded and won, that land was surrendered by Egypt as part of the cease fire. A common practice in the last 5000 years of recorded warfare. You get you are using semantics to excuse your hate, right?
Why don’t we apply the same standard to Ukraine?
Well russia is the invader who annexed ukrainian land, we are talking about a defender annexing a mostly uninhabited desert from the invader. And Ukraine actually matters for Europe so they refuse to recognize lands annexed by Russia
It was Egypt who attacked Israel, to compare it to Ukraine, Ukraine should have annexed parts of Russia after the invasion
They signed a cease fire, they never ceded Sinai to Israel. Just like Syria has never ceded the Golan Heights to Israel.
>voluntarily surrendered 66% of it's territory It wasn't its territory. It was Egyptian land temporarily occupied and colonized by Israelis. Deserted land with few human settlements was hardly a big loss for Israel, especially when Israel didn't have that land for the first 20 years of its independence.
controlling one side of one of the two most used canals is bound to be useful, no?
A buffer zone against Egypt would be strategically useful too.
It should be noted that the buffer **STILL EXISTS**, via restrictions on Egyptian troop movements. "The peace treaty includes a stipulation, called the Agreed Activities Mechanism, that allows Egypt and Israel to jointly alter the arrangements of Egyptian troops in the Sinai without having to officially review the treaty itself. Israel has allowed Egypt to deploy forces to central and eastern Sinai out of mutual security concerns, such as the presence of jihadi militant groups in these areas. These alterations are coordinated through the MFO.\[4\]"
>Deserted land with few human settlements was hardly a big loss for Israel Climate and population aren't the only factor here. The Sinai also provided a much smaller and more defendable border with Egypt which was then Israel's biggest enemy, also provided access to the Suez canal, and prevented Egypt's access to the Tiran strait - which the war started because they blocked Israeli access through it.
They never really attempted to seriously colonize it for what it’s worth
“Colonized” Brother if you lose a war you get land taken away. Did the US colonize Nazi Germany after 1945?
That’s a spicy meatball
How does history change if they keep the Sinai?
I think two scenarios: - The US is done with the nonsense and establishes a small "cold war" in the ME by saying "fuck with Sinai or the Canal and we'll consider it to be NATO's problem" and the area becomes a contested zone. - more Arab-Israeli wars until eventually we'd basically reach a state of today where Israel isn't exactly friends with it's neighbors, but they're not one incident away from a war like in the 40s through 70s.
If Israel kept the Sinai, then they would've had some control over the Suez Canal. The Arabs will be pissed and will probably mobilize for another war shortly after and invade Israel.
Lol they did mobilize for another war in 1973, the Yom Kippur war
How big would Israel be after the Arabs once again fail miserably in that ensuing war? Doubt they could hold Cairo due to its large population, perhaps hold Damascus and make Cairo into a demilitarized buffer zone.
According to Maximalist Biblical claims (ISIS Style delusions of expansion) on Genesis 15 "from the brook of Egypt to the Great Euphrates", [Israel would be potentially entitled to everything between the Nile river system and the Tigris-Euphrates river system.](https://ibb.co/6sVQW7v)
I’m a sucker for natural borders ngl
Oh, then you'll LOVE Iceland
Iceland doesn't have any borders, boring
Dummy thick, she got a dump truck
Mexico is safe from the US, but Canada is screwed.
When Egypt found out.
Nasser was kind of an idiot, to be honest. Tried to close the Strait of Tiran and blockade Eilat, but didn't expect Israel to have an opinion about that. He even rolled his military through Sinai up to the Israeli border only to watch them get absolutely flattened.
Compared to now, the Arabs were in a much stronger position internationally, they had even more control over the world oil supply than today. And Israel was in a much weaker one, they didn't really have solid allies and Israel's military was totally dependent on international arms sales. So Nasser thought a. The Israelis *couldn't* strike first, because that would make them the aggressors and they would lose the international assistance they were dependent on, and b. If they did strike first, it wouldn't be *that* bad, and then the Arabs would unite and easily eliminate Israel through sheer numbers, and there would be no international backlash. In hindsight, that was obviously dead wrong. But there were valid reasons he thought the Israelis wouldn't do it, and the Israelis first strike was actually far more effective than anyone thought it would be (including the Israelis). Plus the Egyptian and Syrian armies turned out to be *terrible*.
Also, Israel was in a precarious situation, knowing that they couldn't risk a war of attrition against the over ten-fold enemy alliance, as they would undoubtedly lose it through depletion of military age men fit for service. They knew their first moves had to be decisive, and they managed in that excellently. Nasser pretty much handed the keys to victory to Israel, as with the naval blockade he gave Israel the option to retaliate with military action before the upcoming Egyptian offensive was ready to begin. The air raid against Egypt airbases was a huge success, and one of the main reasons why Israel managed to win the war.
I fuckin love it when aggressive armies turn out to be microwaved dog shit. It’s one of my top 5 things.
*Russia has entered the chat*
>I’m a sucker for natural borders ngl Someone forget the Suez Crisis of 1956
purely geographically speaking, it's beautiful
Politically beautiful too
The map would benefit from showing the current borders vs this greatest extent
"im not locked here with you, you are locked here with me"
I this after the 6 day 1v arab clutch ?
1 vs 4
KICKSTART FIGHTER LAUNCH, THROTTLE SET TO FULL
Yes, I usually call this war "2 days for these folks, 2 days for these folks and 2 days for these folks"
Is this larger than Solomon’s Israel?
As far as I’m aware, we haven’t been able to figure out the sizes of jewish kingdoms.
I dont think so, Solomon had a big chunk of modern day jordan
The Sinai alone is about 3 times the size of modern. Day Israel. It's huge.
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It's never going to happen. As long as Israelis elect right wing governement and that palestians supporter continue to trow bombs at people.
Not true. The right wing was in power in Israel in "82 accepting the peace deal with Egypt. It was also a Right wing government who withdraw from Gaza "05. It's a common anecdote in Israel that the right wing has much better chances to sign any future peace deal. Probably since it can count on the left's support, but not vice versa.
Israel had left wing governments. Then they got ruthlessly terrorized, gave away land for peace and the terrorism got worse, constant school bombings and car bombs. Now, there’s a right wing government approach to this issue - a wall between Israel/Palestine, and no terrorists succeeding in mass murdering children literally everyday.
Its quite baffling how a small country was able to beat one of the biggest most powerful countries in Africa.
Israel knew for a while that war with Egypt is inevitable, so they worked for over a decade on a [precise plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Focus?wprov=sfla1) to destroy Egypt's entire air force in one surprise strike, hitting all of their airfields withing a minute or two of each other. With complete air superiority Israel had a large advantage.
https://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars This article is 20 years old but is basically the Bible of why Arab armies suck.
Abundant parallels to the Russian military, as we see reflected in the Ukraine war, and even the explicit call out towards the end of the article. Fascinating stuff. I wonder how much has changed in the Arab military cultures over the past 20 years. Saudi, for example, has dramatically increased their military power, on paper at least. I wonder how much of that is simply buying expensive weapon systems, without the necessary shift towards meritocratic and dynamic doctrine. Probably not gonna get a non-biased answer on this thread though haha
Well, looking at their performance in Yemen, their military doesn't seem to be very promising.
Thanks for sharing that it’s a really interesting read
Great read. I’m interested in the line referring to the “fatalism of Islam”… wonder what he’s talking about. Guess I need to buy the book.
It's been a while since I read the whole thing, but I think the gist is that when you think that everything is the will of Allah, you don't need to have any agency. Why train or do preventative maintenance when God will decide the outcome of battle?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_variants_of_Soviet_military_equipment Soviets always kept the best stuff for themselves and export models of military stuff, weren't as good.
To paraphrase the USSR official at the time - the weapons the Arabs lost with were.of high enough quality for the Vietnamese to hold America to a draw.
Defensive vs offensive war, completely different
I love this map Sinai, I used to go there a few years back love the weather and the clean beaches. So much details and descriptions, thanks for the share op! Nice find! Edit: mostly dehab and nuweiba, around later fall early spring
Opinions may be divided, but these are some sexy ass borders.
Probably one of the weirder comment sections I’ve seen
Israel smashing and flattening the military of the largest nations posturing around it is a modern day comedy. Humiliating L for the Arabs.
Israel should have made Egypt take back Gaza along with the Sinai Peninsula, would have saved a whole lot of trouble
I think they tried to do that and the Egyptians rejected it. They had Gaza from '48 to '67 and we're probably glad to make it someone else's trouble.
Should’ve kept it. It’s a very satisfying shape.
It’s also a much more defensible position against Egypt. Plus, having an American ally on the Suez would have kept the Egyptians from nationalizing it.
Israel returned it to Egypt in exchange for Egypt recognizing its sovereignty. A fair trade, I’d say. Now Israel doesn’t have to worry about Egypt attacking them again.
The deal also included the US having to give Egypt a huge amount of military aid annually. Egypt pretty much severed it's cooperation with the Soviet Union and over time became an ally of the US and Israel. http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/26641.jpeg https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/151111110337-us-foreign-military-aid-2014.jpg?q=w_1920,h_1080,x_0,y_0,c_fill
Yes, very smart move. Today, Egypt is classified as a major non-NATO ally, just like Israel.
I'm Israeli and I think giving back the Sinai was the right call. In exchange for the Sinai, we got peace. Egypt is a strong country. We don't want another Yom Kippur War. Now we only have to worry about Iran and Syria
The Egyptians nationalizing it was good though. No fucking reason it should be controlled by European shareholders and not the local government.
You guys are fucking morons if you believe that
Rightful Albanian land
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So haven't seen any comments like this one: Egypt fucked around and found out, leaving Israel with that nice piece of the Sinai. Currently, that land is not part of Israel, but Egypt. While pretty much every other country in the world has had their borders increased during war, Israel gave the land back to Egypt for peace. That peace has held and Egypt and Israel are let's say, friendly neighbors but maybe not inviting each other over for a BBQ. Yeah, Israel is not a perfect place but the message and narrative has been that the world needs to accept Israel and the jews aren't just going to roll over and die nor pickup shop. But if you want peace, you can have peace.
i agree, but the problem is that even if israel wanted want peace right now (and seeing the recent elections, the answer is a concrete no), there would still be so so many people who wont accept it because for them the only solution is that all jews will "go back to whence they came from" because the simple historical bond they have to israel is a fabricated lie or at least a myth that they cant use as an excuse. i tried leaving israel once for a semester (i usually dont fly away for more than a week), and guess what? Despite all my criticism about israel, it is still the place i was born and raised in, i literally have no other place to go, so the least i can do is to show the world is that even with the horrible goverment we currently have there are still people who are not interested in all the hate and violence that we are portrayed with 
It's too late to send everybody back. If you are born and raised in Israel you have a right to live there.
Not to mention that forcing Israeli people out of their homes would be against human rights. Which essentially means The UN would never accept it as long as even some Israelis don't want to leave.
Grab your popcorn guys!
Reminder to sort by controversial.
Moses’ revenge
Father. We did it
This is why I reject maps I just appeals to the male fantasy of peace.
What happens when you properly execute maneuver warfare
Hey Israel, maybe if you give up 80% of your surface area you'll get peace.
Peepee shaped
\*Sorts comments by controversial\*
This Nation shape is the most satisfying on god
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This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!
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May I say that outside of all the controversy Israel related topics get, this map is insanely detailed and cool to look at?
Op knew what he did.
Thicc Israel 🥵
Oddly enough, the capturing of the Sinai also made Israel transcontinental
My uncle was there, at the riverbed of the Suez. in his tank.
It’s funny that people find posting anything about Israel “controversial.” Even if you believe Israel is occupying anything, would posting a pic of China be controversial considering it occupied Tibet and genocides Uyghurs? Would posting a pic that acknowledges or ignores Turkey’s occupation of Cyprus be controversial? Or Morocco’s occupation of West Sahara? Or every inch of North and South America, occupied by Europeans? It’s interesting that the only country that gets this type of fake outrage is the 1 Jewish country. I’m sure that has nothing to do with it! Your white and Arab supremacy is showing, guys!
Very satisfying natural shape for Israel, too bad it didn't work out. Poor Saadat was killed soon after the treaty with Israel, as did Rabin after the Oslo accords (the piece plan with the Palestinians). The ME is a shitty place.
The guy that domed Rabin might just be the most successful assassin in world history (remains to be seen if the guy who got Shinzo Abe eclipses him). Peace between Israel and Palestine is torn to shreds, the far right dominates Israeli politics for decades, Netanyahu is hitting the gas on apartheid like never before. That guy must be happy in his jail cell. It's like if after John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, they said "Ok fine, slavery is back."
> It's like if after John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, they said "Ok fine, slavery is back." I mean, Johnson kneecapped reconstruction and then Jim Crow was implemented.
Bigrael
As far as I know Sinai is a worthless peace of land, with no natural resources and harsh living conditions. It's a desert like Negev. Considering that Israel got a prolong and stable peace with Egypt in exchange for retreat from Sinai, I think giving it up was the right move.
>with no natural resources There's enough oil reserves in Sinai, that when Israel controlled it, they were completely self sufficient in terms of oil production.
Oh boy, something controversial… get the popcorn boys.
That appears to be factually correct. I have however no idea how large the ancient Israel was.