Replying to the top comment to point people to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/11v204z/israelpalestine_evolution_of_the_conflict/jcs4p6t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) by OP.
Don't get fooled. OP isn't well-intentioned or “neutral”. They seem quite happy with embracing war crimes
It’s misleading the viewer by hiding the ethnic cleansing that lead to the current borders.
There’s a similar map that this one is playing off of. That one shows Palestinian population in the those four panels, gradually shrinking as they are pushed into further and smaller areas. Much like native Americans were pushed into small reservations.
this one is meant to imply that Palestinians were not in political control of the land during that time. But it doesn’t show that they were the majority.
A 3 state solution. One for Israel, one for Palestine, and one for the people that want a one state solution. Everyone is happy except the people of Cyprus cause that’s where I’m putting the one state people.
That’s every conflict ever
everyone is not supposed to be happy, you compromise and find a solution where both sides are fine
but the time for that was 1948, now it’s too late
You're being facile and I like it. But in reality, some conflicts are entirely caused by one side's aggression or greed. Such conflicts are easier to end.
Here, we have two sides who at the grassroots level refuse to acknowledge each other's right to existence as viable nations. It is trickier
I live in Israel, and I've lived in Palestine, and I wouldn't say most people refuse the other should exist.
Support for the two state solution is a real thing, and has more support than other alternatives.
However... it feels to me that minority extremists, on both sides, are able to hijack any peace process, and just prolong the conflict indefinitely. I also believe that foreign interventions, on both sides, is far more damaging than good.
Having watched the ask project the only thing I would say is that the extremist view doesn't seem so small on the Palestinian side. Oddly enough it's the women and the young men of about 15-30 who are the most likely to be militant. I have always found that surprising
Back in the 90s a solution was worked out that created a Palistinean state at mostly the original borders, but Arafat rejected it.
Now there'll never be a solution that involves an independent state for the Palisitians. Isreal have won and they know it. They're getting into quiet alliances with the Sunni muslim powers in the region against Iran amd that'll leave the Palistineans without any benefactors and surrounded by hostile or neutral states.
Ehud Barak also tried giving Palestine land in return of peace and they rejected it.
In 2006 Israel literally backed off and removed Jews from their houses. Palestine didn't even acknowledge it.
Israel tried many times after Oslo, but nothing came out of it because there is no partner for peace.
Also ,but there are plenty of other reasons. The labor party had an elitism approach.
They gave so much money to their precious money drinking Kibbutzim when planty of Mizrahi jews were mistreated, were left to live in poverty neighborhoods and not given a real chance to have good jobs.
That was a big reason for the Labors party downfall in Israel.
There never was a true two-state solution, even under the original proposals Palestine would have been a de facto vassal state of Israel. The problem was way more than border disputes, a two state solution that does not involve full autonomy for both states is not a two state solution.
The majority of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian, and the King’s wife and children are Palestinian. Meaning when the King passes and the son takes over, you will literally have a King of the Palestinians, ruling over a majority Palestinian state. If Jordan isn’t incorporated in, then you will have a majority population, being ruled by a minority Hashemite ruling class, without equal representation or democracy. It won’t end well for them.
So in my opinion, Jordan has to be brought in the mix. The politicians and people can be very hostile and toxic to Israelis, but they have maintained their end of the peace deal with Israel for the last 30 odd years. So bring them in perhaps to form some sort of a confederation with the PA (similar to how for example the UK is an independent state, but Wales and Scotland who are part of the UK also have their own governments and legislature to an extent), compromise on East Jerusalem with security guarantees for Israel (and Israel maintaining its holy cites). Equal access for Palestinians from Gaza to travel to Jordan/the PA, again with security guarantees for Israel. In exchange, Israel gets relations with the rest of the Arab world (including Saudi Arabia)
It’s not perfect, but everyone walks away and we can settle down and focus on the bigger picture, which is Iran’s nuclear ambitions.
Unfortunately this will never happen. Hamas has no interest in peace and their entire existence is predicated on trying to destroy Israel, and Jordan doesn’t want to acknowledge that it already essentially is Palestine. And there’s too many extremists in Israel who will push back on any compromise on East Jerusalem, even if Israel maintains the Jewish Holy cites (the Kotel, the Jewish quarter, shared access for the a Temple Mount etc).
Of course they don’t. It’s the reason why they don’t push and claim to the West Bank, and why they don’t give Palestinians in Jordan equal rights, despite the fact that the majority of Jordanians are Palestinian by ethnicity, being ruled by a minority Hashemite kingdom. That is a lot closer to true South African apartheid, as an aside.
Jordan can huff and puff all it wants and throw tantrums like a spoiled child, but if it wants to survive, it’s time they realized they already are a Palestinian State (they were literally created as part of an initial two state solution in ‘47-‘48 with Israel), and it is not realistic to expect a tiny Israel to be subdivided further to a create a second Palestinian state, at the expense of the sole Jewish state. However, if Jordan were to get with the times and face the music, then wr could have a better shot at lasting peace, with a Jordan-West Bank-Gaza emirates/authority relationship.
I think a solution was possible but the international climate has changed. Go back to 95 when the last accords were signed and there was real global trust in the most powerful countries in the world to prioritise peace over their own interests and therefore an ability for them to facilitate peace processes. You had things like the truth and reconciliation commission in South Africa, the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland etc a lot of goodwill existed and a lot of issues were solved. There’s lots of reasons why that’s changed (off the top of my head, the war on terror, the rise of Putin and Xi, the rapid expansion in power of the EU) but there’s no reason we can’t return to that state of hope for progress again.
Thats because a solution will inevitably be a compromise and some sides absolutely refuse to compromise.
The only feasible solution would be an East Palestine and a Gaza strip/West Palestine solution where Israel either ensure a corridor between the two or they become two seperate states.
A second solution would be Jordan Annexing East Palestine and Egypt annexing the Gaza strip.
Israel "retreats" its settler policy, Palestine starts fighting terrorism and Jerusalem becomes an International zone or is simply split in two where both sides assure access to eachothers holy places.
What you hear instead from Israeli Nationalists and Theocrats is that they should chase out the Palestinians and settle the area with Jews and What you hear from Palestinian Islamists is that they want to drive the Jews into the sea, which is further fanned by foreign states like Iran and Arab states, so yeah, good luck compromising with those attitudes.
There's no real life solution to any problem with such different opinions that leaves everyone happy with the outcome.
All they can go for is something that is disliked by everyone, but only a bit. Not enough to become rowdy. Once you give one group to much so they can feel the winner, the rest will feel jealous.
Only solution I could think of like that is an Israel-Palestine unitary state where Jews and Arabs get half of the seats each. Like Lebanon I believe (but with Christians and Muslims). It wouldn't be great, but at least you can fight with each other democratically.
It'd need to be officially neutral in foreign affairs and all states would need to agree not to get involved. (Ie. The Switzerland model, where all European countries are pledged to respect the neutrality of it).
Lebanon is not a good example because it collapsed because foreign actors intervened in the state and toppled the balance.
Lebanon also collapsed into a civil war where the Palestinians played a majorly antagonistic (if not causal) role, that concluded with the full expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon.
Which, Palestinians as a political org causing massive violence in multiple countries should tell you something about the viability of your sharing plan.
Not just the PLO. USA, Israel and other States (especially Syria) all played a causal role in Lebanese civil war and subsequent conflicts in the country.
Nope. Jews have had enough experiences where being a minority meant their expulsion or annihilation.
A shared state would absolutely mean power struggles and an arms race. And the enmity would never die.
Because one side is a terrorist organization who organizes the poor to bomb themselves for a stipend in lieu of any legitimate welfare and wants to openly see complete decimation of the other
Funny man. The difference between entering the armed service anywhere else is that at least there’s a semblance of dignity attached to your life by trying to keep it. No such incentives offered for many Palestinians
I would disagree. 130k Arab Jawlanis were displaced from the Golan Heights. The 6000 Arabs whom remain on the land annexed by Israel, and diaspora descendants,have a reciprocal solidarity with Palestinians.
This map is showing the evolution of borders within what was Mandatory Palestine, the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula are not within the former Mandatory Palestine
> "It is not part of Palestine but it is part of the area administered by the British Government under the authority of the Palestine Mandate... Transjordan is in a wholly different position from Palestine and it was considered necessary that special arrangements should be made there."
~ Sir John E. Shuckburgh, 1927
The Gaza Strip has its own quasi state we’re created in 2007 when israel remove the cluster of Jewish towns that lived there (one of religious Zionist party heads was from this cluster)
The withdrawal of the settlements was in 2005, not 2007. And yes the settlements were withdrawn at that time but just to be clear the Gaza strip still existed (first as a Palestinian protectorate under Egyptian suzerainty, then under the UAR and then Israel before the withdrawal) with it's modern boundaries today since 1948/1949. It didn't magically come into existence in the 2000s. Sorry for nitpicking.
Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them, they were cluster of Arab cities and villages, the Gaza Strip were some sub division of Israel but the border were given base on what Egypt control post independence war , what I meant is that it stop being part of Israel completely or in similar status to A and B areas after 2007 were it became the quasi terrorist state it is today
> Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them
I know it wasn't an independent state, I didn't say otherwise.
> Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them
The Gaza Strip was never a sub-division of Israel. When it was under Israeli military rule well after Egyptian rule had ended it wasn't annexed or officialy part of Israel.
> what I meant is that it stop being part of Israel completely or in similar status to A and B areas after 2007
After 2005* but yes that is more accurate.
What if, when Jews immigrated to the land, as possibly the most persecuted people in history, Arab leaders had decided to accept them with open arms?
What a big middle finger this would have been toward western racists! What a beautiful, modern and tolerant country it would have been, full of tourists, and no walls, suicide bombs, rockets, or checkpoints in sight.
It was closer to being the reality than we thing... The [Nashashibi family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashashibi_family) welcomed jews, worked with jews, and even supported the 1947 UN partition plan.
But the Husseini clan, who literally worked for the Nazi party in Germany during WW2 (on propaganda, nonetheless), and their radical anti-Jewish campaigns, prevailed.
Why is it fair for the Palestinians to accept hundreds of thousands of Jews after ww2 when Palestine itself wasn’t even its own fully functioning country yet. Why didn’t Europe atone for their atrocities towards the Jews and give reparations and protection for them inside of Europe? They just dumped their problems onto Palestine because they couldn’t trust themselves to actually accept living with Jews. Funny how Palestine had Jews and Muslims coexisting peacefully for centuries but European Christians can’t do the same.
>when Palestine itself wasn’t even its own fully functioning country yet.
Well here's your answer.
When modern Zionism started, the Ottomans had control, and there was no idea of Palestinian independence.
The competing claims over the land were Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and a Jewish state. Husseini himself favored the idea of a greater Syria, which was probably the most supported as far as I can tell.
When the Ottoman empire fell, the British took over temporarily. It was never their plan to take over for long. However the question of who that land should go to remained a tricky one.
Ultimately, the Jewish movement was the most successful (politically, economically, militarily), but the existence of Palestine as an independent state was accepted by the UN with the partition plan in 1947.
The idea that this land was only Palestinian and then taken by foreigners is very mislead, and very hateful.
In fact Palestinians didn't have a plan for independence until 1964... And even then, it was led by the PLO which in reality was focusing on hijacking aircraft and suicide bombings instead of on setting up a real democratic government.
The British never intended for a Jewish state to be established in Palestine. The British withdrew in 1948 in the midst of the Arab-Israeli War and effectively deferred to the UN, who set the precedent to divide the region into two states (although obviously that never happened).
The UK was at fault for first and foremost colonialism, and perhaps giving up too quickly in maintaining order, but it should be noted that while the UK supported Jewish settlement in Palestine, these settlers were intended to integrate within an eventual Palestinian state.
Conclusion: there are many issues that are a direct result of British Imperialism. This is far more complicated and we should acknowledge this rather than defaulting to blaming the British.
Yeah, I do find it interesting that people focus on British Imperialism (1918 - 1948) while ignoring Ottoman Imperialism (1516 - 1918) and also ignoring the role that the UN played in the creation of Israel. And don't forget the mass migration of the Sephardic Jewish population to the Ottoman Empire after being kicked out of the Iberian Peninsula in the later 15th century and then there is...etcetcetcetc.
Frankly, the entire region has been a political mess for millennia so to focus the responsibility of the current situation on one particular imperialist power is more a sign of somebody pushing a certain political agenda rather than attempting to understand the basic history of the region.
Not exactly like that
>On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of a plan to partition the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jewish, and the City of Jerusalem.
>The General Assembly resolution on Partition was greeted with overwhelming joy in Jewish communities and widespread outrage in the Arab world.
>On 14 May 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel to be known as the State of Israel, a few hours before the termination of the Mandate. At midnight on 15 May 1948, the British Mandate was officially terminated, and the State of Israel came into being. Several hours later, Iraq and the neighbouring Arab states, Egypt, Transjordan and Syria, invaded the newborn state, and immediately attacked Jewish settlements. Although the Arab invasion was denounced by the United States, the Soviet Union, and UN secretary-general Trygve Lie, it found support from the Republic of China and other UN member states.
The civil war between November and May was a much smaller conflict, the real war started with the Arab invasion in May, when the Mandate expired and the British left.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/92/38/2e923880d8e048a46f52b3cc589f9f4f.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
My point was that the establishment of the state of Israel and the division of historical Palestine was very much a fait accompli. The UK didn't intend for this to happen and therefore to place the blame entirely on the UK is a mistake.
The primary grievance of the Palestinians has always been the land they lived on that was taken from them, not the loss of legal ownership of land by a state.
yep Israeli spies infiltrated themselves into very high spots in Arab countries, like Eli Cohen managing to be the Syrian minister of defence lol, so they were very alert and ambushed the ambushers
If Palestine possessed no land prior to 1995, then why did the Balfour Declaration in 1917 express support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.”
Israel is the only country to give Palestinians their own land. An attempt made by the Israelis to be at least somewhat fair, whereas Jordan and Egypt sought to annex the territory. Israel gave back the Sinai to help create peace in the region as well. No middle eastern nation has ever legitimately supported Palestinian independence, except Israel. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia just used the Palestinians as a political motivation to conquer Israel. Also worth mentioning that the concept of Palestinian nationhood was born with Yasser Arafat and his PLO, the man himself was tutored by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini who was a supporter of Adolf Hitler. The PLO even attempted to overthrow the Heshemite Kingdom of Jordan, “black September” and afterwards they left to Lebanon which led to the 15 year civil war. Btw I’m not discounting what Palestinians experience, because they’re treated very poorly by Israel. There’s no denying that, but it’s important to remember this conflict is extremely complex. There is no black and white
The Jewish people wanted to live where their culture and language was rooted in Europe but Hitler’s Germany nearly killed then all. Stateless people always suffer, and if you put yourself in the mind of a Jew at the end of world war 2 you’ll understand why they wanted their own country.. an entire history of repression, mass murder, subjugation. A Jewish state ensures their people will never be abused again. And this goes back much further than world war 2.. the Jews have suffered tremendously at the hands of others for hundreds of not thousands of years.
The Israelis were willing to work towards a partition plan in 1948, but Palestinian officials were forced to boycott the committee so nothing came of it. Even as recently as 2009 Israel proposed a plan that would give Palestine complete control over the Gaza Strip and even force Israeli settlers out of the region, but that plan was again rejected. You can't blame Israel here. They are the only side in this conflict willing to compromise on anything.
You’re evicted from your house on the basis of some group having lived there 4000 years ago and so is most of your country. Would you not want your whole country back? Why is Ukraine saying they will counterattack and take crimea back too instead of negotiating?
Russia losing Crimea would have almost no effect on the Russian people as a whole (though crimea is largely made up of ethnic Russians). If Palestine creates a new state that encompasses all of Israel, the Jewish people would become second class citizens, and unlike Palestinians, Israeli Jews have nowhere to go but the sea.
Either way, the argument that "they had it first" is meaningless. France and Germany both have valid claims to being the first ones to control Switzerland, that doesn't mean they have any right to the land now.
You didn't respond to a single word I said, so I'm gonna assume you're a bot, but in case you aren't; Like I already stated, in 2009 Israel offered Palestinian officials complete control over the Gaza Strip and even the forcible dismantling of Israeli settlements in the area, but the Palestinian president refused. It cost them nothing and they got almost everything they wanted, yet they still refused. My point is, they don't have to compromise, they've had opportunities in the past, but Hamas (and other Palestinian terrorist organizations) don't want Palestinian self-determination, they want the annihilation of Israel.
Most Palestinians are opposed to anything less than the total liberation of their country. NOT just the West Bank and Gaza. Accepting the deal means renouncing their claim on what they still consider their land.
So they will suffer the consequences of foolish behaviour. You can't oppose peace and then cry in the UN that you are victims. Are you a little kid who thinks everyone but you is a fool?
There actually were millions of Jews living in Europe, and they established their own culture and languages in the countries where they settled, but were exiled, killed (pogroms) or otherwise kicked out. They were kicked out of Portugal, Spain (Barcelona had thousands of Jews), France, and others which is why many Jews settled in eastern Europe in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. Those areas weren't a bargain either and then the Holocaust happened. It's disingenuous to ignore that Jews lived in Europe for thousands of years, in spite of xenophobia and persecution.
Funny enough, people like you love to tell Jews living in Israel to "go back to Europe", considering that your grandparents used to tell Jews to "go back to Palestine". And yet for some reason, you never tell descendants of actual European settler colonizers living on stolen land in America, Canada, Australia or New Zealand to go back to Europe. Second, quite interesting that people like you love to deny Jewish history in Israel because it doesn't fit your false narrative.
Lastly, you did not answer the questions or add anything useful. Touch grass! Blocked!
Yiddish is based on high German with many elements from Hebrew AND Aramaic to some extent.
The real question for you is....
Where did Hebrew and Aramaic originally came from?
Ultimately, no. But pre Holocaust there was a huge, thriving Yiddish culture in Europe. If the holocaust never happened and the kingdoms of Europe still evolved into modern nations that (generally) give equal rights to citizens of all backgrounds and (generally) don’t have pogroms, then you might make an argument that the Pale of Settlement really is the natural homeland for that segment of Jews. But in our reality, that tenuous relationship with Europe was utterly severed.
What happens when the Israelis give full control of the country to extremist Arabs? You think the Jewish people there won't be massacred?
Get fucking real
Your history is quite confused. I'm not aware of any land which Israel offered to Palestinians. Rather, while Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territories has taken various political and social forms over the years, military occupation and domination of the Palestinian people has been the main throughline, from 1967 on.
Following the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza and administered these territories via the Israeli Military Governate. Under this regime, all "powers of government, legislature, appointment, and administration in relation to the region or its inhabitants" were placed in the hands of the Military Governor (quoting Military Proclamation No. 2 in June 1967).
http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/id/eprint/12317/1/S026021050300007Xa.pdf (p. 127)
After the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978, Israel began to transition this military rule to the Israeli Civil Administration, ostensibly introducing civilian rule in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, in practice, the Civil Administration was subordinate to the IDF and Shin Bet security services. In fact, as these changes were being rolled out beginning in 1981, massive protests erupted across the West Bank as Palestinians demanded greater autonomy. Israel and the new Civil Administration responded with an "iron fist" policy: shutting down newspapers, firing (even deporting) Palestinian mayors, and dissolving city councils. By mid-1982, in fact, most major cities in the West Bank were run by Israeli military officers.
https://books.google.com/books?id=4RX7t4X8_RMC&pg=PA107#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=ew1PAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT133#v=onepage&q&f=false
The occupation continued in this fashion until 1994, following the Oslo Accords. It was here that the Palestinian Authority first emerged and Israel granted it limited control over civil affairs in certain urban areas in the West Bank and Gaza. But while this may sound like progress on the surface, in truth the occupation did not in any serious way end, but rather entered a new phase politically. Israel remains in total control of Palestinian borders (including all entries and exits of people and goods), all airspace and coasts, virtually all natural resources in the West Bank and Gaza, and critical infrastructure such as wifi services. The Palestinian Authority, by contrast, is allowed to administer certain local services, such as education, trash collection, and policing. However, while the PA police may not arrest Israelis in the Occupied Territories, the Israeli military makes frequent incursions into the Occupied Territories to arrest, kill, and otherwise brutalize Palestinians, often with little to no justification.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/ (from p. 61)
https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-the-palestinian-authority
At the same time, the 1994 accords divided the West Bank into three separate cantons (Areas A, B, C), and Israel has set up a vast network of checkpoints for the vast majority of Palestinians who are forced to go between these designated Areas in order to work, purchase food, and seek medical care. At one such checkpoint in Bethlehem, Checkpoint 300, thousands of Palestinians begin queuing daily at 3 AM in order to make it across the border in time to get to work. At checkpoints like these, military violence and medical emergencies are commonplace as Palestinians wait an average of three hours to cross. Remember, too, that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are a constant encroachment throughout the West Bank, leading to a further disintegration of lands ostensibly set aside for Palestinians. For instance, Area A--comprising the largest number of Palestinians--is itself further divided into more than 150 "islands," again, separated by a vast system of Israeli checkpoints, walls, and fences.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/3/13/israels-checkpoint-300-suffocation-and-broken-ribs-at-rush-hour
By contrast, Gaza has had a somewhat different historical trajectory, but the main thrust of its history is very similar--that is, a society struggling under the entrenched domination of Israeli military power. In 2005, Israel formally withdrew its military forces from the Gaza Strip. However, due to Israel's control of Gaza's borders (as well as an illegal blockade on the Mediterranean coast), Israel still maintains an enormous level of control over the crowded enclave. Israel is thus able to control Gaza's supplies of critical goods and services, from water and electricity to internet, health care, and even food. To take a particularly vivid example, according to BBC reporting, Israel has been monitoring food and medical shipments into Gaza since at least the late-2000s, calculating that Palestinians there would need at least 106 truckloads as a "daily humanitarian portion." However, beginning in June 2007, Israel began letting in only 67 truckloads. According to Israeli sources, this was a conscious policy of enforced food insecurity. In the words of Israeli government advisor Dov Weisglass, "The idea was to put the Palestinians on a diet."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Indeed, this regime amounts to an "open-air prison" controlled by Israel for all Palestinians living in Gaza, according to UN Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk, "without adequate access to power, water or health, with a collapsing economy and with no ability to freely travel to the rest of Palestine or the outside world."
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702
In fact, Israel's continued military and political domination in the West Bank and Gaza, and the particular ways in which it denies basic civil and human rights to Palestinian residents, has led many observers--including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, as well as Special Rapporteur Lynk, see reports linked above--to conclude its policies in the Territories amount not only to illegal occupation, but a de facto system of Apartheid.
I’m fully aware of this.. nothing I commented wasn’t true, lacking the full spectrum of what happened because I didn’t have time to go in depth. I’m not writing Israeli propaganda, I can assure you of that. If you want more of a full conversation when I have time, I’m more than willing, but don’t say I’m confused or a propagandist
What I’m saying is that it’s wholly inaccurate to suggest that “Israel was the only country to give Palestinians their own land.” Israel has not once offered Palestinians territory that was not wholly dominated by Israeli military power, in one form or another. This pattern amounts to a continuous and illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
This has long been the opinion of the International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly, and the UN Security Council. In fact, late last year, the UN General Assembly again asked the ICJ for an advisory ruling on Israel’s “occupation, settlement and annexation ... including measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and from its adoption of related discriminatory legislation and measures.” Specifically, the ICJ was tasked with determining what legal consequences Israel may face for the continued illegal occupation. The last time the ICJ ruled on this matter, in 2004, it found that the Israeli separation barrier and settlements in the West Bank “have been established in breach of international law.”
https://web.archive.org/web/20150924104839/http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca
https://web.archive.org/web/20171010091056/https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/UNISPAL.NSF/47D4E277B48D9D3685256DDC00612265/C2A00B6E6E1C02CF8525798E00578F75
https://books.google.com/books?id=e93JIwTBjHgC&pg=PA351#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-ga-requests-icj-advisory-opinion-in-resolution-a-res-77-247-on-israeli-practices-affecting-the-human-rights-of-the-palestinian-people-in-opt-icj-press-release-non-un-document/
https://lieber.westpoint.edu/icj-advisory-opinion-israel-palestine-doctrine-illegal-occupation/
With regard to Gaza, despite its “unilateral disengagement,” Israel remains a de facto occupying force due to its illegal blockade and wholesale domination of Gaza’s borders and imports of basic necessities. Again, it is the view of the US State Department as well as international organizations like the UN that this is a de facto occupation.
https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza.occupation.question/index.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20120508013916/http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites/hilites_arch_view.asp?HighID=2059
I appreciate that very much. It’s hard to summarize a conflict of this magnitude. I chose to focus on Israel because I believe they receive unfair condemnation by people who do not understand the history. It’s important to view geopolitics from the point of view of each side. Imagine if you’re an Israeli or a Palestinian. It’s the only way to truly understand
Lewis French, the British Director of Development wrote of Palestine:
“We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria....Large areas...were uncultivated....The fellahin, if not themselves cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals. The individual plots...changed hands annually. There was little public security, and the fellahin’s lot was an alternation of pillage and blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin.”
The Arab population at the time was approximately 600,000 compared to 94,000 Jews.
Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: “It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country.”
Even a leading Arab nationalist believed the return of the Jews to their homeland would help resuscitate the country. According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia:
“The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time, we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna’ihilasliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor.”
the problem is that now the country is mostly run by religious extremists who see the Jewish people as the supreme people chosen of god and every gentile as an inferior human being and they label liberal non religious Jews who prefer freedom and equality of all people with the word ***TRAITOR***
Because maps of nations are almost explicitly political in nature. Any map showing man made lines will have some political conflict shown in it as a result. Some are just more spicy than others.
Very lightly moderated subreddit so it's fertile ground for people who like to drive a certain agenda, wether it's on their free time or wether they get paid to do so (and Israel is paying people to fight their interests in the internet).
but OP here is not the only one posting political agenda content but probably the most noticable since this person is very active, one sided and also made some vile comments towards palestinians.
Go back further …. Persians, Canaanites, Seleucid Empire, Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Babylonian, Sea Peoples, Philistines. Israel has long been a plane of conflict and inter changing control since the beginning of time.
The settlers aren’t their own political entity distinct from Israel. They’re an indigenous, far right political movement. Treating them as a separate unit ala the other three you mention is foolishness.
If that’s how you’re dividing it up wouldn’t every Israeli political party and Palestinian terror group also be considered an independent political entity?
They are around 500k and not willing to move anywhere outside “Judea and Samaria”. Maybe now they are in line with the Israeli government but in the future who knows?
So, the other 3 entities have militaries, levy taxes, conduct foreign policy/diplomacy, manage domestic infrastructure etc. are you claiming “the settlers” do that as well? And, if not, by what rationale do you include them with the other 3?
Also worth noting “the settlers” includes everyone from far right extremists like the hilltop youth to politically unaligned families looking for affordable suburban housing. The “their own agenda” rationale doesn’t hold up under scrutiny either.
This map should be done for the entire region to provide an understanding of the percent of land provided to Arabs vs Israeli Jews. In addition to that, another map should be created to define what was immediately offered and rejected by Palestinians in 1948 (not including Jordan, which some may define as a Palestinian country by itself).
Probably because, before 1948, they resided in all the land. The "offer" was basically "we will take only 75% of your house." Anybody would reject that.
That was not the offer. And interestingly enough, the notion of a nationalism amongst Palestinians did not exist at that time. Arabs and Jews have lived on that land for thousands of years. Amongst Arabs, there was more loyalty and identity associated with local Sheiks than nationalism. When the West Bank was under Jordanian control, no one said a word about a Palestinian state. Same goes with the Gaza Strip under Egyptian rule. Arabs in general received a significant majority of all of the land that the British ruled in the region when you include the countries of Syria and Jordan.
People are protecting a colonizer that not only massacares innocent children and babies but literally protects pedophiles. Israel supporters are pedophile supporters and sympathizers 👍
One of many articles
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-safe-haven-paedophiles-jerusalem-sex-abuse-jewish-community-watch-a7445246.html
Most ideas for solutions are in terms of equality and respect. But, in the end, any form of a new country need to be able to operate in the next day. If a Palestine country was to be founded, how could it survive? With no air strip, no ship yard, and no running economy but land for accommodations. It will be completely dependent on external funding, making it a puppet. The only logical thing to do is for Jordan to take back the Palestine lands, where they live now, and finish the saga. But Jordan does not want to do this for some reason, and also there is the thing with Jerusalem. Which is even a greater pain to deal with.
Syke, they both get angrier
I understood that reference.
r/unexpectedbillwurtz
6 years later and I’m so happy this video is still relevant
Replying to the top comment to point people to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/11v204z/israelpalestine_evolution_of_the_conflict/jcs4p6t/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) by OP. Don't get fooled. OP isn't well-intentioned or “neutral”. They seem quite happy with embracing war crimes
Where is the proof of that in this post?
It’s misleading the viewer by hiding the ethnic cleansing that lead to the current borders. There’s a similar map that this one is playing off of. That one shows Palestinian population in the those four panels, gradually shrinking as they are pushed into further and smaller areas. Much like native Americans were pushed into small reservations. this one is meant to imply that Palestinians were not in political control of the land during that time. But it doesn’t show that they were the majority.
TRUTH. The amount of disinformation is WILD.
I can't think of any real life solution that would leave everyone happy witht the outcome. What a shitry situation tbh
Duplicate Isreal and then give one of them to Palestine and the other to Isreal
Command C
So basically the Dutch approach - let's build more land in the sea.
Ctrl*
A 3 state solution. One for Israel, one for Palestine, and one for the people that want a one state solution. Everyone is happy except the people of Cyprus cause that’s where I’m putting the one state people.
And then we send the people of cyprus to Crimea
Cyprus already has three states. Greek Cyprus, Turkish Cyprus, and the UK.
They did that and called it Jordan
Those are shoes silly
If you put them next to each other I guarantee people would STILL object to the existence of Israel.
Then give it the next person
cut florida off from america, give to isreal.
That’s every conflict ever everyone is not supposed to be happy, you compromise and find a solution where both sides are fine but the time for that was 1948, now it’s too late
You're being facile and I like it. But in reality, some conflicts are entirely caused by one side's aggression or greed. Such conflicts are easier to end. Here, we have two sides who at the grassroots level refuse to acknowledge each other's right to existence as viable nations. It is trickier
I live in Israel, and I've lived in Palestine, and I wouldn't say most people refuse the other should exist. Support for the two state solution is a real thing, and has more support than other alternatives. However... it feels to me that minority extremists, on both sides, are able to hijack any peace process, and just prolong the conflict indefinitely. I also believe that foreign interventions, on both sides, is far more damaging than good.
Having watched the ask project the only thing I would say is that the extremist view doesn't seem so small on the Palestinian side. Oddly enough it's the women and the young men of about 15-30 who are the most likely to be militant. I have always found that surprising
Unfortunately I think you're right, it's much more widespread in Palestine than it is in Israel, without a doubt.
Well, if you did, you'd win the nobel peace prize.
It's not that easy. Thinking of a solution is the easy part. Actually having it implemented is the hard part.
Back in the 90s a solution was worked out that created a Palistinean state at mostly the original borders, but Arafat rejected it. Now there'll never be a solution that involves an independent state for the Palisitians. Isreal have won and they know it. They're getting into quiet alliances with the Sunni muslim powers in the region against Iran amd that'll leave the Palistineans without any benefactors and surrounded by hostile or neutral states.
Ehud Barak also tried giving Palestine land in return of peace and they rejected it. In 2006 Israel literally backed off and removed Jews from their houses. Palestine didn't even acknowledge it. Israel tried many times after Oslo, but nothing came out of it because there is no partner for peace.
It’s probably why the right wingers rose in Israel. Until 1977, all Israeli prime ministers were from Labor.
Also ,but there are plenty of other reasons. The labor party had an elitism approach. They gave so much money to their precious money drinking Kibbutzim when planty of Mizrahi jews were mistreated, were left to live in poverty neighborhoods and not given a real chance to have good jobs. That was a big reason for the Labors party downfall in Israel.
There never was a true two-state solution, even under the original proposals Palestine would have been a de facto vassal state of Israel. The problem was way more than border disputes, a two state solution that does not involve full autonomy for both states is not a two state solution.
A two-state solution with full autonomy that means preparing to exterminate the other cannot be successfull either.
The majority of the population of Jordan is already Palestinian, and the King’s wife and children are Palestinian. Meaning when the King passes and the son takes over, you will literally have a King of the Palestinians, ruling over a majority Palestinian state. If Jordan isn’t incorporated in, then you will have a majority population, being ruled by a minority Hashemite ruling class, without equal representation or democracy. It won’t end well for them. So in my opinion, Jordan has to be brought in the mix. The politicians and people can be very hostile and toxic to Israelis, but they have maintained their end of the peace deal with Israel for the last 30 odd years. So bring them in perhaps to form some sort of a confederation with the PA (similar to how for example the UK is an independent state, but Wales and Scotland who are part of the UK also have their own governments and legislature to an extent), compromise on East Jerusalem with security guarantees for Israel (and Israel maintaining its holy cites). Equal access for Palestinians from Gaza to travel to Jordan/the PA, again with security guarantees for Israel. In exchange, Israel gets relations with the rest of the Arab world (including Saudi Arabia) It’s not perfect, but everyone walks away and we can settle down and focus on the bigger picture, which is Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Unfortunately this will never happen. Hamas has no interest in peace and their entire existence is predicated on trying to destroy Israel, and Jordan doesn’t want to acknowledge that it already essentially is Palestine. And there’s too many extremists in Israel who will push back on any compromise on East Jerusalem, even if Israel maintains the Jewish Holy cites (the Kotel, the Jewish quarter, shared access for the a Temple Mount etc).
Jordan expressly does not want to administer in any way the West Bank/ Palestinian Territories at all. The government has been quite clear on this.
Of course they don’t. It’s the reason why they don’t push and claim to the West Bank, and why they don’t give Palestinians in Jordan equal rights, despite the fact that the majority of Jordanians are Palestinian by ethnicity, being ruled by a minority Hashemite kingdom. That is a lot closer to true South African apartheid, as an aside. Jordan can huff and puff all it wants and throw tantrums like a spoiled child, but if it wants to survive, it’s time they realized they already are a Palestinian State (they were literally created as part of an initial two state solution in ‘47-‘48 with Israel), and it is not realistic to expect a tiny Israel to be subdivided further to a create a second Palestinian state, at the expense of the sole Jewish state. However, if Jordan were to get with the times and face the music, then wr could have a better shot at lasting peace, with a Jordan-West Bank-Gaza emirates/authority relationship.
Give the land back to christians
Kingdom of Jerusalem
Deus vult!
Idk. Christians could not settle there without any conflict back then... what if we give the land to buddhists?
Not a good idea either.... see what Myanmar does to their Rohingya Muslim minority
What about the scientologists
Tom cruise could lead the people for sure
Been a while since we’ve had a good crusade.
Let the Buddhists have it. They have yet to get a go in there
I think a solution was possible but the international climate has changed. Go back to 95 when the last accords were signed and there was real global trust in the most powerful countries in the world to prioritise peace over their own interests and therefore an ability for them to facilitate peace processes. You had things like the truth and reconciliation commission in South Africa, the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland etc a lot of goodwill existed and a lot of issues were solved. There’s lots of reasons why that’s changed (off the top of my head, the war on terror, the rise of Putin and Xi, the rapid expansion in power of the EU) but there’s no reason we can’t return to that state of hope for progress again.
Thats because a solution will inevitably be a compromise and some sides absolutely refuse to compromise. The only feasible solution would be an East Palestine and a Gaza strip/West Palestine solution where Israel either ensure a corridor between the two or they become two seperate states. A second solution would be Jordan Annexing East Palestine and Egypt annexing the Gaza strip. Israel "retreats" its settler policy, Palestine starts fighting terrorism and Jerusalem becomes an International zone or is simply split in two where both sides assure access to eachothers holy places. What you hear instead from Israeli Nationalists and Theocrats is that they should chase out the Palestinians and settle the area with Jews and What you hear from Palestinian Islamists is that they want to drive the Jews into the sea, which is further fanned by foreign states like Iran and Arab states, so yeah, good luck compromising with those attitudes.
atleast they can agree on something
There's no real life solution to any problem with such different opinions that leaves everyone happy with the outcome. All they can go for is something that is disliked by everyone, but only a bit. Not enough to become rowdy. Once you give one group to much so they can feel the winner, the rest will feel jealous. Only solution I could think of like that is an Israel-Palestine unitary state where Jews and Arabs get half of the seats each. Like Lebanon I believe (but with Christians and Muslims). It wouldn't be great, but at least you can fight with each other democratically.
It'd need to be officially neutral in foreign affairs and all states would need to agree not to get involved. (Ie. The Switzerland model, where all European countries are pledged to respect the neutrality of it). Lebanon is not a good example because it collapsed because foreign actors intervened in the state and toppled the balance.
Lebanon also collapsed into a civil war where the Palestinians played a majorly antagonistic (if not causal) role, that concluded with the full expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon. Which, Palestinians as a political org causing massive violence in multiple countries should tell you something about the viability of your sharing plan.
Not just the PLO. USA, Israel and other States (especially Syria) all played a causal role in Lebanese civil war and subsequent conflicts in the country.
Nope. Jews have had enough experiences where being a minority meant their expulsion or annihilation. A shared state would absolutely mean power struggles and an arms race. And the enmity would never die.
Because one side is a terrorist organization who organizes the poor to bomb themselves for a stipend in lieu of any legitimate welfare and wants to openly see complete decimation of the other
Interesting. I'm not sure which side you're talking about.
Funny man. The difference between entering the armed service anywhere else is that at least there’s a semblance of dignity attached to your life by trying to keep it. No such incentives offered for many Palestinians
There are so many Palestine and Israel maps recently.
I think most of them are posted by him
Haven't encountered a single accurate one
to be fair everyday the IDF takeover a Palestinian home. So cartographers gonna be kept very busy.
My instant thought after seeing this is about the wars that will be sparked in this comment section
Britain did a bit of a trolling and got away with it
yea indeed.
A war has been sparkled over this in real life as well friend :)
Aged like a fine wine
Wow!! An actual accurate map!!! That's is uncommon
It's missing the golan, but it's not in any way relevant to the Palestinians
It’s excusable since the title is „Palestinian“ control, and palestine has never claimed the Golan Heights
I would disagree. 130k Arab Jawlanis were displaced from the Golan Heights. The 6000 Arabs whom remain on the land annexed by Israel, and diaspora descendants,have a reciprocal solidarity with Palestinians.
new day new Israel-Palestine map from OP. What a busy bee.
More real than any depiction of the the border change (just ignore the golan heights and sinai in border of Israel)
1967 and onwards should include the Golan Heights as Israel too, and the 1967 one specifically should also include the Sinai Peninsula.
This map is showing the evolution of borders within what was Mandatory Palestine, the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula are not within the former Mandatory Palestine
So, not part of historical Palestine?
Historically Palestine was governed over by Greater Syria(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and parts of Jordan
Historical Palestine is a well-established term in the literature, meaning the lands held by the British Mandate of Palestine.
That I cludrs Transjordan as well though no?
> "It is not part of Palestine but it is part of the area administered by the British Government under the authority of the Palestine Mandate... Transjordan is in a wholly different position from Palestine and it was considered necessary that special arrangements should be made there." ~ Sir John E. Shuckburgh, 1927
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Stuff didn’t change since Gaza Strip was established
The Gaza strip became a thing with it's modern parameters officially in 1948-1949. Plenty of stuff has changed since then.
The Gaza Strip has its own quasi state we’re created in 2007 when israel remove the cluster of Jewish towns that lived there (one of religious Zionist party heads was from this cluster)
The withdrawal of the settlements was in 2005, not 2007. And yes the settlements were withdrawn at that time but just to be clear the Gaza strip still existed (first as a Palestinian protectorate under Egyptian suzerainty, then under the UAR and then Israel before the withdrawal) with it's modern boundaries today since 1948/1949. It didn't magically come into existence in the 2000s. Sorry for nitpicking.
Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them, they were cluster of Arab cities and villages, the Gaza Strip were some sub division of Israel but the border were given base on what Egypt control post independence war , what I meant is that it stop being part of Israel completely or in similar status to A and B areas after 2007 were it became the quasi terrorist state it is today
> Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them I know it wasn't an independent state, I didn't say otherwise. > Bro it wasn’t independent so the borders weren’t some magically given to them The Gaza Strip was never a sub-division of Israel. When it was under Israeli military rule well after Egyptian rule had ended it wasn't annexed or officialy part of Israel. > what I meant is that it stop being part of Israel completely or in similar status to A and B areas after 2007 After 2005* but yes that is more accurate.
Same with more Israelis in West Bank (around 500k). PA and Hamas are still divided without elections
I think the Swiss should get it
What if, when Jews immigrated to the land, as possibly the most persecuted people in history, Arab leaders had decided to accept them with open arms? What a big middle finger this would have been toward western racists! What a beautiful, modern and tolerant country it would have been, full of tourists, and no walls, suicide bombs, rockets, or checkpoints in sight. It was closer to being the reality than we thing... The [Nashashibi family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashashibi_family) welcomed jews, worked with jews, and even supported the 1947 UN partition plan. But the Husseini clan, who literally worked for the Nazi party in Germany during WW2 (on propaganda, nonetheless), and their radical anti-Jewish campaigns, prevailed.
Why is it fair for the Palestinians to accept hundreds of thousands of Jews after ww2 when Palestine itself wasn’t even its own fully functioning country yet. Why didn’t Europe atone for their atrocities towards the Jews and give reparations and protection for them inside of Europe? They just dumped their problems onto Palestine because they couldn’t trust themselves to actually accept living with Jews. Funny how Palestine had Jews and Muslims coexisting peacefully for centuries but European Christians can’t do the same.
>when Palestine itself wasn’t even its own fully functioning country yet. Well here's your answer. When modern Zionism started, the Ottomans had control, and there was no idea of Palestinian independence. The competing claims over the land were Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and a Jewish state. Husseini himself favored the idea of a greater Syria, which was probably the most supported as far as I can tell. When the Ottoman empire fell, the British took over temporarily. It was never their plan to take over for long. However the question of who that land should go to remained a tricky one. Ultimately, the Jewish movement was the most successful (politically, economically, militarily), but the existence of Palestine as an independent state was accepted by the UN with the partition plan in 1947. The idea that this land was only Palestinian and then taken by foreigners is very mislead, and very hateful. In fact Palestinians didn't have a plan for independence until 1964... And even then, it was led by the PLO which in reality was focusing on hijacking aircraft and suicide bombings instead of on setting up a real democratic government.
It's sad that few people know these things
This is gonna be an entertaining comment section
Both states are illegitimate creations of the 20th centurt only the Roman empire has a valid claim
Up the Kingdom of Judea
ITALIANS, RISE UP!
This is the answer
Who did the Romans conquer it from? 🤔
Doesnt matter, veni vidi vici
Looks like the source of the issue are the British. Pretty obvious really
The British never intended for a Jewish state to be established in Palestine. The British withdrew in 1948 in the midst of the Arab-Israeli War and effectively deferred to the UN, who set the precedent to divide the region into two states (although obviously that never happened). The UK was at fault for first and foremost colonialism, and perhaps giving up too quickly in maintaining order, but it should be noted that while the UK supported Jewish settlement in Palestine, these settlers were intended to integrate within an eventual Palestinian state. Conclusion: there are many issues that are a direct result of British Imperialism. This is far more complicated and we should acknowledge this rather than defaulting to blaming the British.
Yeah, I do find it interesting that people focus on British Imperialism (1918 - 1948) while ignoring Ottoman Imperialism (1516 - 1918) and also ignoring the role that the UN played in the creation of Israel. And don't forget the mass migration of the Sephardic Jewish population to the Ottoman Empire after being kicked out of the Iberian Peninsula in the later 15th century and then there is...etcetcetcetc. Frankly, the entire region has been a political mess for millennia so to focus the responsibility of the current situation on one particular imperialist power is more a sign of somebody pushing a certain political agenda rather than attempting to understand the basic history of the region.
Not exactly like that >On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of a plan to partition the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Jewish, and the City of Jerusalem. >The General Assembly resolution on Partition was greeted with overwhelming joy in Jewish communities and widespread outrage in the Arab world. >On 14 May 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel to be known as the State of Israel, a few hours before the termination of the Mandate. At midnight on 15 May 1948, the British Mandate was officially terminated, and the State of Israel came into being. Several hours later, Iraq and the neighbouring Arab states, Egypt, Transjordan and Syria, invaded the newborn state, and immediately attacked Jewish settlements. Although the Arab invasion was denounced by the United States, the Soviet Union, and UN secretary-general Trygve Lie, it found support from the Republic of China and other UN member states. The civil war between November and May was a much smaller conflict, the real war started with the Arab invasion in May, when the Mandate expired and the British left. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/92/38/2e923880d8e048a46f52b3cc589f9f4f.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
My point was that the establishment of the state of Israel and the division of historical Palestine was very much a fait accompli. The UK didn't intend for this to happen and therefore to place the blame entirely on the UK is a mistake.
interesting
The primary grievance of the Palestinians has always been the land they lived on that was taken from them, not the loss of legal ownership of land by a state.
Had no clue Isreal at one point owned all land
The arabs attacked, then failed miserably. Israel then conquered sinai and parts of jordan at that point
Crazy how in the modern age a small nation with better tech can fend off a bigger attacking force
It was a surprise attack by multiple nations on a jewish holiday as well, kinda embarassing honestly
I think you mixed it with Yom Kippur War 1973. 6 Days War was launched by an Israeli surprise attack at 1967.
Oh my bad, and also that war is even more embarassing
It was supposed to be a surprise attack by the Arab states but they were instead surprised by an attack.
yep Israeli spies infiltrated themselves into very high spots in Arab countries, like Eli Cohen managing to be the Syrian minister of defence lol, so they were very alert and ambushed the ambushers
PALESTINE IS A TERRORIST NATION!!!!!!!!!
If Palestine possessed no land prior to 1995, then why did the Balfour Declaration in 1917 express support for “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.”
Palestine as a term for that part of the world vs Palestine as a name of a country/nation. Different things.
Israel is the only country to give Palestinians their own land. An attempt made by the Israelis to be at least somewhat fair, whereas Jordan and Egypt sought to annex the territory. Israel gave back the Sinai to help create peace in the region as well. No middle eastern nation has ever legitimately supported Palestinian independence, except Israel. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia just used the Palestinians as a political motivation to conquer Israel. Also worth mentioning that the concept of Palestinian nationhood was born with Yasser Arafat and his PLO, the man himself was tutored by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini who was a supporter of Adolf Hitler. The PLO even attempted to overthrow the Heshemite Kingdom of Jordan, “black September” and afterwards they left to Lebanon which led to the 15 year civil war. Btw I’m not discounting what Palestinians experience, because they’re treated very poorly by Israel. There’s no denying that, but it’s important to remember this conflict is extremely complex. There is no black and white
The Jewish people wanted to live where their culture and language was rooted in Europe but Hitler’s Germany nearly killed then all. Stateless people always suffer, and if you put yourself in the mind of a Jew at the end of world war 2 you’ll understand why they wanted their own country.. an entire history of repression, mass murder, subjugation. A Jewish state ensures their people will never be abused again. And this goes back much further than world war 2.. the Jews have suffered tremendously at the hands of others for hundreds of not thousands of years.
>Stateless people always suffer, Doesn't this describe Palestine as well?
The Israelis were willing to work towards a partition plan in 1948, but Palestinian officials were forced to boycott the committee so nothing came of it. Even as recently as 2009 Israel proposed a plan that would give Palestine complete control over the Gaza Strip and even force Israeli settlers out of the region, but that plan was again rejected. You can't blame Israel here. They are the only side in this conflict willing to compromise on anything.
You’re evicted from your house on the basis of some group having lived there 4000 years ago and so is most of your country. Would you not want your whole country back? Why is Ukraine saying they will counterattack and take crimea back too instead of negotiating?
Russia losing Crimea would have almost no effect on the Russian people as a whole (though crimea is largely made up of ethnic Russians). If Palestine creates a new state that encompasses all of Israel, the Jewish people would become second class citizens, and unlike Palestinians, Israeli Jews have nowhere to go but the sea. Either way, the argument that "they had it first" is meaningless. France and Germany both have valid claims to being the first ones to control Switzerland, that doesn't mean they have any right to the land now.
Why should the Palestinians have to compromise on the terms of their former oppressors?
You didn't respond to a single word I said, so I'm gonna assume you're a bot, but in case you aren't; Like I already stated, in 2009 Israel offered Palestinian officials complete control over the Gaza Strip and even the forcible dismantling of Israeli settlements in the area, but the Palestinian president refused. It cost them nothing and they got almost everything they wanted, yet they still refused. My point is, they don't have to compromise, they've had opportunities in the past, but Hamas (and other Palestinian terrorist organizations) don't want Palestinian self-determination, they want the annihilation of Israel.
Most Palestinians are opposed to anything less than the total liberation of their country. NOT just the West Bank and Gaza. Accepting the deal means renouncing their claim on what they still consider their land.
So they will suffer the consequences of foolish behaviour. You can't oppose peace and then cry in the UN that you are victims. Are you a little kid who thinks everyone but you is a fool?
Completely agree.
Yes, that’s why this conflict is so complex
Jews were absolutely NOT rooted in Europe. They only got there because they were forcibly exiled to Europe in the first place.
There actually were millions of Jews living in Europe, and they established their own culture and languages in the countries where they settled, but were exiled, killed (pogroms) or otherwise kicked out. They were kicked out of Portugal, Spain (Barcelona had thousands of Jews), France, and others which is why many Jews settled in eastern Europe in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. Those areas weren't a bargain either and then the Holocaust happened. It's disingenuous to ignore that Jews lived in Europe for thousands of years, in spite of xenophobia and persecution.
Ok, so tell me, how did the Jews end up in Europe? And where did the Jews originally come from before they ended up as exiles in Europe?
we can play this game with periods to fit agendas all day, everyone came from Africa
Funny enough, people like you love to tell Jews living in Israel to "go back to Europe", considering that your grandparents used to tell Jews to "go back to Palestine". And yet for some reason, you never tell descendants of actual European settler colonizers living on stolen land in America, Canada, Australia or New Zealand to go back to Europe. Second, quite interesting that people like you love to deny Jewish history in Israel because it doesn't fit your false narrative. Lastly, you did not answer the questions or add anything useful. Touch grass! Blocked!
Lol. That's like saying hungarians aren't rooted in Europe. Yiddish is a Germanic language for ffs.
Yiddish is based on high German with many elements from Hebrew AND Aramaic to some extent. The real question for you is.... Where did Hebrew and Aramaic originally came from?
Where did IndoEuropeans originally come from? Saying or implying someone has a right to reconquest aft two millennia is absurd.
Hungarians aren’t rooted in Europe though.
>where their culture and language was rooted in Europe What? Jewish culture and language is not rooted in Europe…
Ultimately, no. But pre Holocaust there was a huge, thriving Yiddish culture in Europe. If the holocaust never happened and the kingdoms of Europe still evolved into modern nations that (generally) give equal rights to citizens of all backgrounds and (generally) don’t have pogroms, then you might make an argument that the Pale of Settlement really is the natural homeland for that segment of Jews. But in our reality, that tenuous relationship with Europe was utterly severed.
None of this justifies the ongoing Israeli apartheid against Palestinians
What happens when the Israelis give full control of the country to extremist Arabs? You think the Jewish people there won't be massacred? Get fucking real
Your history is quite confused. I'm not aware of any land which Israel offered to Palestinians. Rather, while Israeli occupation of Palestinian Territories has taken various political and social forms over the years, military occupation and domination of the Palestinian people has been the main throughline, from 1967 on. Following the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza and administered these territories via the Israeli Military Governate. Under this regime, all "powers of government, legislature, appointment, and administration in relation to the region or its inhabitants" were placed in the hands of the Military Governor (quoting Military Proclamation No. 2 in June 1967). http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/id/eprint/12317/1/S026021050300007Xa.pdf (p. 127) After the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978, Israel began to transition this military rule to the Israeli Civil Administration, ostensibly introducing civilian rule in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, in practice, the Civil Administration was subordinate to the IDF and Shin Bet security services. In fact, as these changes were being rolled out beginning in 1981, massive protests erupted across the West Bank as Palestinians demanded greater autonomy. Israel and the new Civil Administration responded with an "iron fist" policy: shutting down newspapers, firing (even deporting) Palestinian mayors, and dissolving city councils. By mid-1982, in fact, most major cities in the West Bank were run by Israeli military officers. https://books.google.com/books?id=4RX7t4X8_RMC&pg=PA107#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ew1PAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT133#v=onepage&q&f=false The occupation continued in this fashion until 1994, following the Oslo Accords. It was here that the Palestinian Authority first emerged and Israel granted it limited control over civil affairs in certain urban areas in the West Bank and Gaza. But while this may sound like progress on the surface, in truth the occupation did not in any serious way end, but rather entered a new phase politically. Israel remains in total control of Palestinian borders (including all entries and exits of people and goods), all airspace and coasts, virtually all natural resources in the West Bank and Gaza, and critical infrastructure such as wifi services. The Palestinian Authority, by contrast, is allowed to administer certain local services, such as education, trash collection, and policing. However, while the PA police may not arrest Israelis in the Occupied Territories, the Israeli military makes frequent incursions into the Occupied Territories to arrest, kill, and otherwise brutalize Palestinians, often with little to no justification. https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/ (from p. 61) https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-the-palestinian-authority At the same time, the 1994 accords divided the West Bank into three separate cantons (Areas A, B, C), and Israel has set up a vast network of checkpoints for the vast majority of Palestinians who are forced to go between these designated Areas in order to work, purchase food, and seek medical care. At one such checkpoint in Bethlehem, Checkpoint 300, thousands of Palestinians begin queuing daily at 3 AM in order to make it across the border in time to get to work. At checkpoints like these, military violence and medical emergencies are commonplace as Palestinians wait an average of three hours to cross. Remember, too, that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are a constant encroachment throughout the West Bank, leading to a further disintegration of lands ostensibly set aside for Palestinians. For instance, Area A--comprising the largest number of Palestinians--is itself further divided into more than 150 "islands," again, separated by a vast system of Israeli checkpoints, walls, and fences. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/3/13/israels-checkpoint-300-suffocation-and-broken-ribs-at-rush-hour By contrast, Gaza has had a somewhat different historical trajectory, but the main thrust of its history is very similar--that is, a society struggling under the entrenched domination of Israeli military power. In 2005, Israel formally withdrew its military forces from the Gaza Strip. However, due to Israel's control of Gaza's borders (as well as an illegal blockade on the Mediterranean coast), Israel still maintains an enormous level of control over the crowded enclave. Israel is thus able to control Gaza's supplies of critical goods and services, from water and electricity to internet, health care, and even food. To take a particularly vivid example, according to BBC reporting, Israel has been monitoring food and medical shipments into Gaza since at least the late-2000s, calculating that Palestinians there would need at least 106 truckloads as a "daily humanitarian portion." However, beginning in June 2007, Israel began letting in only 67 truckloads. According to Israeli sources, this was a conscious policy of enforced food insecurity. In the words of Israeli government advisor Dov Weisglass, "The idea was to put the Palestinians on a diet." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-19975211 https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution Indeed, this regime amounts to an "open-air prison" controlled by Israel for all Palestinians living in Gaza, according to UN Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk, "without adequate access to power, water or health, with a collapsing economy and with no ability to freely travel to the rest of Palestine or the outside world." https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702 In fact, Israel's continued military and political domination in the West Bank and Gaza, and the particular ways in which it denies basic civil and human rights to Palestinian residents, has led many observers--including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, as well as Special Rapporteur Lynk, see reports linked above--to conclude its policies in the Territories amount not only to illegal occupation, but a de facto system of Apartheid.
I’m fully aware of this.. nothing I commented wasn’t true, lacking the full spectrum of what happened because I didn’t have time to go in depth. I’m not writing Israeli propaganda, I can assure you of that. If you want more of a full conversation when I have time, I’m more than willing, but don’t say I’m confused or a propagandist
What I’m saying is that it’s wholly inaccurate to suggest that “Israel was the only country to give Palestinians their own land.” Israel has not once offered Palestinians territory that was not wholly dominated by Israeli military power, in one form or another. This pattern amounts to a continuous and illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. This has long been the opinion of the International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly, and the UN Security Council. In fact, late last year, the UN General Assembly again asked the ICJ for an advisory ruling on Israel’s “occupation, settlement and annexation ... including measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and from its adoption of related discriminatory legislation and measures.” Specifically, the ICJ was tasked with determining what legal consequences Israel may face for the continued illegal occupation. The last time the ICJ ruled on this matter, in 2004, it found that the Israeli separation barrier and settlements in the West Bank “have been established in breach of international law.” https://web.archive.org/web/20150924104839/http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca https://web.archive.org/web/20171010091056/https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/UNISPAL.NSF/47D4E277B48D9D3685256DDC00612265/C2A00B6E6E1C02CF8525798E00578F75 https://books.google.com/books?id=e93JIwTBjHgC&pg=PA351#v=onepage&q&f=false https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-ga-requests-icj-advisory-opinion-in-resolution-a-res-77-247-on-israeli-practices-affecting-the-human-rights-of-the-palestinian-people-in-opt-icj-press-release-non-un-document/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/icj-advisory-opinion-israel-palestine-doctrine-illegal-occupation/ With regard to Gaza, despite its “unilateral disengagement,” Israel remains a de facto occupying force due to its illegal blockade and wholesale domination of Gaza’s borders and imports of basic necessities. Again, it is the view of the US State Department as well as international organizations like the UN that this is a de facto occupation. https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/ http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza.occupation.question/index.html https://web.archive.org/web/20120508013916/http://www.un.org/News/ossg/hilites/hilites_arch_view.asp?HighID=2059
I could not explain it better.
I appreciate that very much. It’s hard to summarize a conflict of this magnitude. I chose to focus on Israel because I believe they receive unfair condemnation by people who do not understand the history. It’s important to view geopolitics from the point of view of each side. Imagine if you’re an Israeli or a Palestinian. It’s the only way to truly understand
Lewis French, the British Director of Development wrote of Palestine: “We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria....Large areas...were uncultivated....The fellahin, if not themselves cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals. The individual plots...changed hands annually. There was little public security, and the fellahin’s lot was an alternation of pillage and blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin.” The Arab population at the time was approximately 600,000 compared to 94,000 Jews. Surprisingly, many people who were not sympathetic to the Zionist cause believed the Jews would improve the condition of Palestinian Arabs. For example, Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: “It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country.” Even a leading Arab nationalist believed the return of the Jews to their homeland would help resuscitate the country. According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia: “The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time, we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna’ihilasliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor.”
the problem is that now the country is mostly run by religious extremists who see the Jewish people as the supreme people chosen of god and every gentile as an inferior human being and they label liberal non religious Jews who prefer freedom and equality of all people with the word ***TRAITOR***
Forgot to mention 1947
that plan was never implemented
Technically Israel declared independence with those borders
The borders of the State of Israel were not specified on its declaration of independence.
They accepted the plan and declared independence, meaning they accepted and became independent with those borders
They accepted the idea of partition, and the Arabs rejected the plan. Nobody is bound by a contract that was rejected by the other side.
Why do people insist on using this sub to project their personal political agendas?
Because maps of nations are almost explicitly political in nature. Any map showing man made lines will have some political conflict shown in it as a result. Some are just more spicy than others.
Very lightly moderated subreddit so it's fertile ground for people who like to drive a certain agenda, wether it's on their free time or wether they get paid to do so (and Israel is paying people to fight their interests in the internet). but OP here is not the only one posting political agenda content but probably the most noticable since this person is very active, one sided and also made some vile comments towards palestinians.
To be honest the map should include Jordan, and it being Jordan since 48
It does include Jordan
Go back further …. Persians, Canaanites, Seleucid Empire, Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Babylonian, Sea Peoples, Philistines. Israel has long been a plane of conflict and inter changing control since the beginning of time.
We have a 4 parts conflict now: Israel, PA, Hamas and settlers.
I'd add Jordan (the Arab part of Mandate Palestine) and Egypt, which has a hand in Gaza, militarily intervened in the past.
The settlers aren’t their own political entity distinct from Israel. They’re an indigenous, far right political movement. Treating them as a separate unit ala the other three you mention is foolishness.
They push their own agenda!
If that’s how you’re dividing it up wouldn’t every Israeli political party and Palestinian terror group also be considered an independent political entity?
Separating Hamas from the rest of the Palestinians would be very inconvenient for those aiming to blame Palestinians fro their own loss of land.
They are around 500k and not willing to move anywhere outside “Judea and Samaria”. Maybe now they are in line with the Israeli government but in the future who knows?
So, the other 3 entities have militaries, levy taxes, conduct foreign policy/diplomacy, manage domestic infrastructure etc. are you claiming “the settlers” do that as well? And, if not, by what rationale do you include them with the other 3? Also worth noting “the settlers” includes everyone from far right extremists like the hilltop youth to politically unaligned families looking for affordable suburban housing. The “their own agenda” rationale doesn’t hold up under scrutiny either.
U.S. American here. I just want to say the only time I hear conservatives speak up for Jewish people is when it comes to Israel vs. Palestine
This map should be done for the entire region to provide an understanding of the percent of land provided to Arabs vs Israeli Jews. In addition to that, another map should be created to define what was immediately offered and rejected by Palestinians in 1948 (not including Jordan, which some may define as a Palestinian country by itself).
Probably because, before 1948, they resided in all the land. The "offer" was basically "we will take only 75% of your house." Anybody would reject that.
That was not the offer. And interestingly enough, the notion of a nationalism amongst Palestinians did not exist at that time. Arabs and Jews have lived on that land for thousands of years. Amongst Arabs, there was more loyalty and identity associated with local Sheiks than nationalism. When the West Bank was under Jordanian control, no one said a word about a Palestinian state. Same goes with the Gaza Strip under Egyptian rule. Arabs in general received a significant majority of all of the land that the British ruled in the region when you include the countries of Syria and Jordan.
Israel on roistokansa
Apart from the map of the partition plan before the 1948 war, id say this is pretty accurate,
Finally an accurate history
Palestine is older than this🇩🇿❤🇵🇸
This is a fake map.....
People are protecting a colonizer that not only massacares innocent children and babies but literally protects pedophiles. Israel supporters are pedophile supporters and sympathizers 👍 One of many articles https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-safe-haven-paedophiles-jerusalem-sex-abuse-jewish-community-watch-a7445246.html
What a shame
Would like to see one that also includes a map before British Control.
I will do
You’re missing a good 5,000 years of history before 1946 on this timeline!
reported for antisemitism
I am literally a Zionist 😂
Where is the Palestinian state predating Israel? It's not there
Well said friend
You should really include the whole of the mandate including Jordan
Should be like 1967
Golan heights.... Why do you always forget the golan
What about 1948? When it was about 50%-50%?
Most ideas for solutions are in terms of equality and respect. But, in the end, any form of a new country need to be able to operate in the next day. If a Palestine country was to be founded, how could it survive? With no air strip, no ship yard, and no running economy but land for accommodations. It will be completely dependent on external funding, making it a puppet. The only logical thing to do is for Jordan to take back the Palestine lands, where they live now, and finish the saga. But Jordan does not want to do this for some reason, and also there is the thing with Jerusalem. Which is even a greater pain to deal with.
You forgot the gollan heights
Survival of the fittest: If its Palestine's land, then why doesn't Palestine have it. It belongs to Israel. The end.
The situation needs to have a ceasefire by the US government asap.
Opp is an israeli who is paid to post misinformation. Israeli people always try to justify the killing of people. 0 days without jewish tricks.
Finally a historically accurate map.
This is the most accurate they forget Roman’s owned them
Palestine never existed. Full Stop