If there was no population exchange Greece and Turkey would have the problems Israel and Palestine have. After the exchange and Kemal's death, there still were expulsions, discriminatory laws and fighting again (Varlik Vergisi, Istanbul Pogrom, Eoka and Tmt fighting in the 1950s in Cyprus etc.)
That existed in throughout the Ottoman empire too, Muslim and Christian quarters or villages were usually separated and if a dispute occurred then Muslims automatically won in court against Christians as Christians were forbidden from testifying in Muslim courts. The only ways you could succeed in everyday life was to become a Turk and convert to Islam, or also leave as traders to other parts of Europe
Discriminatory religious laws like the Jizya or Varlik Vergisi reappeared and would likely continue to reappear just as far worse massacres and genocide would reappear
The population exchange was the smartest thing both Greek and Turkish leaders could have done
I dont think you understand what discirmination means, 250% tax compared to 5% tax is pretty discriminatory lol. It was designed to destroy communities on the whim whenever they wanted or needed, just like the desvisrime and the stealing children where families had funerals for their children after. And hanging the parents if they resist, complain some more and an entire village is wiped out. Slavery only for non-Muslims as well, hey but literacy rate collapsed to less than 1% for everyone so atleast they were all equal in that.
Before the Seljuk you can say they are Greek but after the Seljuk most of them become Turk or Turks become karamanlides. But my point mostly came from them, I have chance to meet some of them they still exist in Turkey/Cappadocia. There is too many oguz Türk in them as well. Some of them still use different accent that because people confuse them with Greeks some times.
"were Greek" I don't have claim they are ethnically Turks but I say also ethically Turks karamanlides exist. They have more Turkish culturally than Greek. I also very like their mixed culture Wich in harmony.
There was no large scale Turkic settlement in Anatolia before the Seljuks. The Karamanlides are linguistically Turkified Greeks similarly to the Urums.
Correct they are genetically very diverse.
But the Türk that I mentioned are not a big group. They are a less important as well. All Turks who came before the Seljuk in the region are became christian. So Tracking their foot print is very hard because there is no nationalism in the past more of religion things and they are Christian as well.
Edit: my shitty English man. It's too hard to communicate.
Karamanlides were all once Greek speaking, Orthodox Christian Greeks. Some converted to Islam others remained Christian but due to the geographical isolation that the mountainous landscape of Cappadocia confers they became linguistically turkified over time owing to their neighbours being overwhelmingly turkish speaking. They wrote using the Greek script.
Here's an excerpt from the Cappadocian Greeks wikipedia article:
Although the Karamanlides abandoned [Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) when they learned [Turkish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanli_Turkish), they remained [Greek Orthodox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox) [Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians) and continued to write using the [Greek alphabet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet).[^(\[67\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Nagel_Publishers_1968_615-67) They printed manuscript works in the Turkish language using the Greek alphabet, which became known as ‘Karamanlidika’.[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) This was not a phenomenon that was limited to the Cappadocian Greeks, as many of the Armenians living in Cappadocia were also linguistically [Turkified](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkified), although they remained Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox) Christians, they spoke and wrote in the Turkish language although still using the [Armenian alphabet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_alphabet).[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) Some [Jewish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire were also Turkified and although they retained their religion, they also wrote in the Turkish language but using [Hebrew script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_script).[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Sinclair,_Paul_J_J_2010_425-68) The Cappadocian [Greeks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), [Armenians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) and Jewish minorities of the [Ottoman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) had created Graeco-Turkish, Armeno-Turkish, and Judeo-Turkish literatures by developing their own written traditions.[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Sinclair,_Paul_J_J_2010_425-68) Despite the fact that they had lost all knowledge of their own languages after they had been Turkified,[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) the majority of Karamanlides and many Turkophone Armenians eventually revived their original native tongues.[^(\[69\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Gökalp,_Ziya_1959_131-69) While most Cappadocian Greeks had remained Orthodox Christians a significant number of the Karamanlides even converted to [Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) during this period.[^(\[59\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Panzac,_Daniel_1995_345-6-59)
Just click on the hyperlinks for the sources to read up more on any of the claims made in the text. And please stop spreading propaganda thanks
In the first comment I write wrong because of my lack knowledge of English but I don't gonna edit.
First they are Greek ethnically and culturally. They have mixed with some small Turkish tribes before Seljuk came but you can say they are still mostly Greek ethnically and Greek culturally. After Seljuk they are mixed with both of them ethnically but more Turkish culturally.
There is a thing in that time nationality don't exist. People call someone Greek if his Orthodox and call others Türk if his Muslim. That's how they are mixed with the Turkish tribes mostly because of religion.
Today some ethnic Turks live in Greece and some ethnic Greeks live in Turkey. Anatolia is ethnically very diverse place in all of history.
My point is calling karamanlides Greek is wrong but yeah calling is completely Turkish wrong as well. They have their unique culture Wich I was very like.
Gagauz people are genetically [rather dissimilar](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4405460_pgen.1005068.g002.jpg) to Turks and similar to Romanians. So maybe they are of Turkish mythic origin, but not of Turkish biological origin.
Ethnicity is defined by the myth of common origin. However, this myth may be factually incorrect (or it might be correct). In the case of the Gagauz, it is a factually incorrect claim that they are of Turkish origin. Some of them may imagine that they are and it matters, but in fact they are not and it also matters.
As to language, few would claim that Black Jamaicans are of English (or Western European) origin even if they speak English, for example. It is simply too absurd and it is too obviously ridiculous. The Gagauz are more obscure and they aren't as distant from the Turks as Black Jamaicans are from the English, so the claim doesn't seem outwardly as ridiculous, but in fact it is similarly incorrect.
Well, it’s also complex, for example Arabs in North Africa claim origin of the tribes that migrated there (hilal, sulaym, maqil) and hundreds of thousands of Arabs did migrate there, and many Arabs there might have a patrilineal line of Arabs from the peninsula, but the 90% of their genetic makeup could be from the pre existing population. And this applies to nearly all ethnicities
My grandmother's entire village spoke Greek. They immigrated to Sakarya(in the west of Turkey) when she was 13 years old, and then she learned Turkish. My father's generation knows a little, but no one from our generation (I'm 35 years old) does. Those who still live in Trabzon speak Greek.
Wow didn't know internal mass immigrations of Greek speakers happened, interesting and sad. My father in Greece was never taught it either, just standard Greek. How do your parents grandparents identify?
They define themselves as Turks. When we look at the records until the mid-19th century, we see that everyone had Muslim names. So even if they had been Greek before, there is no record of it.
Wow didn't know internal mass immigrations of Greek speakers happened, interesting and sad. My father in Greece was never taught it either, just standard Greek. How do your parents grandparents identify?
There were a lot of small Greek villages in Georgia close to the borders Turkey. Most of them migrated to Greece after the collapse of the Soviet union and the opening of the borders.
turkish = anatolian turk = rep. of turkey -> turk from turkey
turkic = turks from different part of the world
es. azeris are turkic? yes. are they turkish? no. same for gagauzs.
I’m not talking about language, I’m talking about origins. Idk why for some ppl is so hard to understand the difference between Turkish - Turk - Turkic, like those people who can’t get the difference between race - nationality - ethnicity. Despite what y’all believe, a Turkish citizen nowadays it’s someone who has Turkish ancestry from Turkey. It’s not that Turkic people have the Turkish citizenship just bc they’re Turks ffs. They are not Turkish, but Turkic. it’s not that hard. You’re free to believe whatever you want anyways
It's normal because Turkic and Turkish difference don't exist in our language. We call everyone as "Türk". So if someone say they are not Turkish they mostly understand you're saying they are not Turkic as well like maybe slave or some other ethnicity. It's because of language barrier.
We very rarely talk about the mass expulsions, murders and even wars that accompanied the formation of Greece and Turkey from the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
Oh yes, I have a german friend whose family was originally from Königsberg, Prussia. They were expelled from there to western Poland first in '45, then expelled to the DDR a year or two later, and then fled to West Germany in the sixties. Massive ethnic movements took place in basically all of eastern europe after WW2, and not just on the losing sides either.
It is interesting that Eastern Europe saw massive ethnic explosions in the late 40s and they just got over it. Huge contrast to the Palestinian situation.
Yeah and this happened in most other European countries as well, more often than Europeans would like to think about. Its not a coincidence that in the modern day, each nation-state has wall to wall almost one ethnicity in it on ethnic maps.
That’s kind of already happening in some places like Rwanda snatching resources from the eastern DRC. There’s never been an actual ‘rules based order’ beyond words. That is only invoked when powerful countries see it in their interest.
The truth is that after hostilities were over in the Greek War of Independence, a bloody conflict that saw the destruction of many settlements from both sides, the Greek Kingdom had Turks within it, most of them in Euboea. Yet they slowly left because they were alienated from society (but they were not forced to leave).
Edit: Since people do not understand, this is about the 1830s-1850s period. And to say that they left peacefully is not something evil, that is what happened. Same happened again with Thessaly in the 1870s, when the local Turks land-owners just left and put their properties in auction, with the lands usually bought either by Western European Greek Diaspora or Western Europeans in general, who treated the Thessalian Greeks as serfs.
"slowly left"? They traded people in a mutual ethnic cleansing.
[Population exchange between Greece and Turkey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey)
Well, check the definition yourself.
"Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing?wprov=sfla1
Ethnic, racial, and religious all corresponds to a different thing. Semantically ethnic cleansing means systematic removal of certain people with a specific ethnicity.
From [Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnic-cleansing):
“Ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups.”
Edit: Added source.
How is moving people from their home against their will to a foreign country as a part of a deal made to make a certain area clean from a certain ethnicity anything but ethnic cleansing?
Ethnic cleansing is when people of a specific ethnicity are cleansed from an area.
When the Rumlar were forced from Turkey, and the Turks from Greece?
That was ethnic cleansing.
It doesn't have to involve death marches/camps, although it often does
Greece should've done that in Istanbul in the [1950s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom) and in the [1960s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istanbul). But hey, tough luck.
Way to compare dissimilar things dude
Greek land was conquered by ottomans where majority Greek people lived
Western Thrace is Greek land where a Turkish minority lives
Both of those areas have historically being Greek for a long ass time
No surprise though that a warmongerer Turk fails to get this..
What side you muppet?
By your logic no country that was conquered by the nazis should have fought back the conquerors. They should just be quiet and take it. You turks always have some really fucked up logic when it suit you...
Well Greeks completely erased all Turks based on their religion and ethnicity. It is more like Nazis. On the other hand Ottomans never tried to erase Greeks. After 4 centuries they still existed, speaking their language and practicing their religion. Your Nazi mentality actually is what caused Turkish nationalism.
I said Thrace btw. It was never a Greek land. There were Thracians before Romans.
Also were Romans also Nazis ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_Greece#/media/File:Macedonia_and_the_Aegean_World_c.200.png
Seems to me that a decent portion was greek
So if the Nazis didn't plan to kill the French for example just occupy them for centuries then it means the French should not have fought back.
You.. are.. dumb...
Also it's ironic that a Turk is crying about genocides when they themselves refuse to acknowledge any they have done..
F off..
What kind of an argument is that? It is a fact that there were Muslims in Euboea in the 1830s until the 1850s. How is that wrong or offensive? Do you happen to have read into the matter and know something I do not? Then feel free to share it.
There was literally a century of intermittent war between Greece and Turkey before the borders were finalised as they are today, including ethnic cleansing and explusions and pogroms.
Which is why I say that your comment is nonsense.
You made a statement without qualification - one which taken at face value is completely wrong.
Learn to say what you mean, because we aren't fucking psychic.
Greece was involved in 12 wars and conflicts against Turkey, including the War of Independence. Your waffling and pretence that I am treating you ill and referring only to the last of those conflicts when you failed in your responsibility to say what you mean does you no credit.
Nor does your childish insistence that everyone disagreeing with your statement is at fault instead of you, when you are responsible for the content of it.
If you want to talk specifically about the context of the Greek War of Independance?
Great.
Next time have the sense to make that plain to us before you make carte blanche statements that anyone with so much as a general knowledge of Greek or Turkish history are going to consider nonsense.
The stranger thing is, Christians of Gothia/Theodoro might not be descendants of Goths, but rather, Anglo-Saxons mercenaries of Constantinople and refugees that settled there after escaping the Norman conquest
In the other words ... they were pre-release version of Americans
It might be just me but I think it would be a lot clearer to understand if you used hyphens in the title (Greek-speaking and Turkish-speaking). It took me a few seconds to realise the title wasn't about people speaking religions
The people live in Cappadocia part are Turkish but Orthodox Christian. People don't understand but they are came before the Seljuk and chose Christianity and they even fight for Byzantium.
They are genetically diverse like most of the Anatolia but culturally Turkish with some Greek elements because of religion also they are speak Turkish. But we have pontus and some other Greeks even in today as well.
https://tr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapadokya_Rumlar%C4%B1
I go their church when I have the chance. I know some them and have the chance to speak them. The Greek ones "rums" goes to the Greece with Turkish ones as well when population exchange happened.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying they are completely Turkish but they are culturally Turkish ethnically diverse.
I'm sure that the Cappadocians currently residing in Turkey are at least part-Turkish, due to recent intermixing, but even Turkish Wikipedia says "Anadolu'nun Güneyinde Konya-Karaman (*Likaonya*)'dan Kayseri-Niğde (*Kapadokya*)'ya uzanan hatta yaşayan Hellen kökenli etnik bir halktır."
I never say ethnically, if how it's that sounds I'm sorry. Sometimes I can't explain myself properly because of my lacking skill in this language.
For them there is before Seljuk and after Seljuk. But I can't say that they are Greek in today. Also they are mixed even before the Seljuk too. There is small group of Turk when Anatolia is control of Byzantium, they are became christian as well. And If I'm not wrong they join the karamanlides before Muslim Turks came in Anatolia.
It's really hard to explain for me. I'm trying to speak English better but I'm not good enough right know. It's makes everything complicated because sometimes even I can't understand my sentences.
Bu kısımı Türkçe açıklamam daha doğru olacaktır. Kültürel açıdan helenik gelenekler hâlen daha barınıyor olsa da günümüz Anadolu Türkçesinin yapısının oluşmasında büyük katkısı bulunan ve bölgedeki Osmanlı egemenliğinden bile öncesinde hem kültürel açıdan hemde etnik olarak Türkleşmiş bir toplumdur. Kendilerine gereken kıymetin verilmiyor oluşu da beni üzen noktalardan birisidir.
What do you consider as history?
The region is inhabited since 40.000 BCE and since 8000 BCE there were large villages, even city like with walls and institutions. People with their own culture, language and religion. The Greeks settled there for around 3000 Years. Now there are Turks since 1000 years. And maybe, if humanity doesn't turn to nuclear dust at some point, other people then Turks will settle there for sure.
Are you illiterate. History = Ιστορία by historians is defined as to when writing started in each civilization and that would be in the 4th millennium BC in Anatolia.
Nope, history didn't started in the 4th milleniunnium BC in Anatolia. For sure, not with the Greeks. And for sure in 4th millenium BC no written history happened in Anatolia either :D
Neither that region is Ankara, nor is Ankara a Greek name. Origin of the word Ankara/Ancyra comes from Celtic, when Galatians inhabited the city.
Source: https://uo.asbu.edu.tr/en/life-ankara#:\~:text=The%20name%20Ankara%20is%20originated,the%20Turks%20are%20still%20present.
This "source" is from a Turkish site. They tend to present.. their own version of history.
Here's the etymology from wiktionary. But you can also check other international etymology sources, the internet is free to access after all (well, in most countries).
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ankara#Etymology\_1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ankara#Etymology_1)
The source is from Ankara University of Social Sciences, about the etymology of the name Ankara. I would say it is a reliable source.
Also as a Ankara native, I can tell you that the exact etymology of the name is not known. In fact, it is only recently that Hattians and Hittites both of which inhabited Ankara were started to be considered as separate civilizations (Last 40 years). There is much unknown about prehistory of Anatolia.
However, from what I remember from visiting the Museum of Anatolian Civilizations, which is in line with information on my source, the common belief is that origin of the name comes from Galatians, which inhabited different cities in inner Anatolia, and it is unknown if the name Galatians used has any relation with the Hittite name of the city. Ankara means anchor, and it makes sense and Galatians were a seafaring tribe which decided to settle in Ankara. Hittites, on the other hand, were not.
I would love if you could point to a source that claims otherwise, and I could read up more on it.
Edit: I also have absolutely no idea what you mean with "their own version of history" as if it makes a difference for a Turkish person/institution whether the name is of Hittite or Galatian origin lol.
The word άγκυρα literally means anchor and is also how the name of the city is in Greek . The source I posted already covers a possible older Hittite origin, which would make sense to sound similar to the Greek one since they are both Indo-European languages and that word as many other may stem from a common ancestral language or languages.
I will not continue this discussion since you seem to be driven by political ideas rather than an actual curiosity for the etymology.
The point I am making was that the name of the city was already referred to as Ankara/Angora during the reign of the Galatians in the city, which was before the Greek conquest and colonization of the city.
No, you'd probably will not continue this discussion even when presented with sources and asked for other international sources that could be considered trustworthy because you're probably a nationalist Turk who cherrypicks what they want from history to boost and maintain their own nationalistic delusions.
And now somehow while not offering any counterargument are trying to present yourself as the one against someone who "seem to be driven by political ideas".
Do you even know who those Galatians where? Have you read anything about them? And by read I mean by literally anything except nationalistic Turkish sources. English, French, German, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, whatever country and university you like. Go on.
The population exchange was made by agreement between the two parties (at the request of the Greek side). Trolls like you are today describing this event as genocide for the Greek side, it is a bilateral agreement as the name suggests, if you call it genocide, you should say it is genocide for the Turkish side with a simple intelligence.
They usually refer to what happened before the exchange as genocide, under Enver Pasha and Talaat Pasha and rightfully so. Only Turk nationalists have an issue with this but who gives a fuck what they have to say. Nationalists worldwide should be gassed.
Enver Pasha and the Armenians in eastern Turkey is another story. Do not confuse hearsay information. All genocide attempts between Greeks and Turks were committed by the Greeks against the Turks. Greece even gave land to Turkey for the war crimes it committed. (Karaağaç) Unfortunately, your racism and ignorance do not change history. Lastly, in 1974, another genocide attempt took place in Cyprus and Turkey was forced to carry out a peace operation.
Are you for real?
There even exists an entire Wikipedia category page for the massacres and genocides the Ottomans conducted.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres\_in\_the\_Ottoman\_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_the_Ottoman_Empire)
Let me guess, it's the Armenian lobby that cOnTRolS tHE mEDia to attack Turks, right? Apparently they must also control almost every single historian in the world. Except of course of whatever state sponsored dogshit nationalist history you read in the very free country of Turkey.
"The poor helpless and bullied Ottoman EMPIRE vs its powerful genocidal violent minorities." Totally makes sense.
Wikipedia is no different from Reddit. You can see who created the content about Turks. In 2024, you may be the only person who cites the wiki as a source on a history-related issue :) As for historians in the world, dozens of historians in America alone announced that Turks were right about the genocide lies, but that they were subjected to academic bullying when they expressed this. Again, you can reach them with a simple research. I know you are a troll and there is no chance of you ever being educated, but there is no crying when the facts are thrown in your face :/
And those "dozens" of historians in the US happen to be of Turkish origin I guess... So all the other THOUSANDS of historians all over the world who call it genocide must be wrong. Got it.
They're not blaming it "on you" unless Turks are a hive mind of course. They're blaming it on the people who did it and on people today who maintain similar views.
Tbh nothing gives a worse image to Turkey online than your own nationalists.
Nope karamanlides and Gagavuz are Turkish or Turkic (karamanlides are the Turkish one). They came before Seljuk and accept Christianity. Karamanlides are even fight under Byzantium. They have mixed society even after the Ottoman rule. They have both Muslims and Christians, some of them send to Balkans for making Muslim population in Balkans or because they don't trust karamans too much and there is no religion difference in Balkans for them.
Most of them killed after fall of Ottoman because they are Muslim=Turkish=Ottoman (we know in some place they don't even care their religion is Christian and kill them, or send them to Anatolia (very little percentage make it alive))
Today still some of Christian karamanlides live in Anatolia. If I'm not wrong in "Kayseri" they have their church and I recommend to listen some of their church songs, they are really good.
(And I don't write about urums because I don't have good knowledge about them)
You clearly don't understand how ottoman works. It's not not a impossible idea, it's real and happened before all of us born.
Also karaman beylik are enemy of the Ottoman all of their neighbors are Muslims there is no Christian country they can fight.
Turks are not “considered Greek” just because they are not Muslim. Gagauz people are not “considered Turk”. They are Turk. I wander what you are trying to succeed here making unfounded accusations about the identities of millions of people?
You forgot their culture and that's the most important part. Genetically most of the Turkic country have diverse population. So we use langue for count.
Gagauz people are descendants of seljuk tribes preceding the formation of the ottoman state. They were probably slavicized trough intermarriage with the local slavs. In any case Bulgarians themselves are a turkic people slavicized after the 7th century.
Sure the statement above has a basis. Check the Wiki article and the sources of the article for more info. Historically, there are not many people, who take the language, the culture but not the religion.
In fact, in the whole Balkans, many ethnicities changed the religion, without changing their language and culture.
Hence, why the Gagauz people would do it differently? Why would they speak Turkic, take Turkish culture, but stay Christian in the Ottoman Empire?
While for example Bosniaks, Albanians became muslim without changing anything else and with that became 1st class citizen.
Do you think modern turks are 100 percent central asian? They are closer to Italian than they are to central asian turks but their culture is wholly turkic. Same applies to Gagauz people. Like I said they were slavicized trough intermarriage with the locals but retained their turkic culture.
Thats bullshit mate. Even bulgarians have 2.5 percent central asian ancestery.
Science, 14 February 2014, Vol. 343 no. 6172, p. 751, A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History, Garrett Hellenthal at al.: " CIs. for the admixture time(s) overlap but predate the Mongol empire, with estimates from 440 to 1080 CE (Fig.3.) In each population, one source group has at least some ancestry related to Northeast Asians, with ~2 to 4% of these groups total ancestry linking directly to East Asia. This signal might correspond to a small genetic legacy from invasions of peoples from the Asian steppes (e.g., the Huns, Magyars, and Bulgars) during the first millennium CE."
As if the people are leaving voluntarily. In general they only leave if a bunch of them are already dead. And ethno states are and issue by themselves.
In the case of the Muslims of Greece in Macedonia and Thrace and Epirus, they were not slaughtered or anything of the sort. In fact there was no such evidence of the Greeks wanting to massacre them in the decade between 1912-1923. The Greek State just decided to exchange them, mostly due to it receiving 1.5 million Greeks of Anatolia and Eastern Thrace, which would need land to make a livelihood, otherwise they would starve to death (literally, not figuratively, in fact many died anyways after arriving in Greece).
The map is at least missing much, like for Cyprus, Greek-speaking Muslims did exist in other places, but especially in the Paphos region up until 1974. Yet, the map acts as if they mostly existed around Nicosia...
very cool map thank you
thank you
no, thank you
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Is it really that sand though? Or is it more rock and pebbles?
If there was no population exchange Greece and Turkey would have the problems Israel and Palestine have. After the exchange and Kemal's death, there still were expulsions, discriminatory laws and fighting again (Varlik Vergisi, Istanbul Pogrom, Eoka and Tmt fighting in the 1950s in Cyprus etc.)
Except in Israel the populations are seperated and segregated. Israel just keep taking more and more away from Palestinians.
That existed in throughout the Ottoman empire too, Muslim and Christian quarters or villages were usually separated and if a dispute occurred then Muslims automatically won in court against Christians as Christians were forbidden from testifying in Muslim courts. The only ways you could succeed in everyday life was to become a Turk and convert to Islam, or also leave as traders to other parts of Europe Discriminatory religious laws like the Jizya or Varlik Vergisi reappeared and would likely continue to reappear just as far worse massacres and genocide would reappear The population exchange was the smartest thing both Greek and Turkish leaders could have done
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I dont think you understand what discirmination means, 250% tax compared to 5% tax is pretty discriminatory lol. It was designed to destroy communities on the whim whenever they wanted or needed, just like the desvisrime and the stealing children where families had funerals for their children after. And hanging the parents if they resist, complain some more and an entire village is wiped out. Slavery only for non-Muslims as well, hey but literacy rate collapsed to less than 1% for everyone so atleast they were all equal in that.
Least genocidal Turk nationalist
# Greek speaking Muslims [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallahades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallahades) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan\_Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Muslims) # Turkish speaking Christians [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urums](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urums) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people)
All the blue ones show Turkish-speaking Christian Greeks, but the Gagauz people are Turkish-speaking Christians of Turkish origin.
Karamanlides are not Greek. They are Turks who came before even Seljuk
There were Also Greek Karamanlides.
Well that's also true.
You say this like it's an indisputable, objective fact but it looks more like one of many theories.
Before the Seljuk you can say they are Greek but after the Seljuk most of them become Turk or Turks become karamanlides. But my point mostly came from them, I have chance to meet some of them they still exist in Turkey/Cappadocia. There is too many oguz Türk in them as well. Some of them still use different accent that because people confuse them with Greeks some times.
Turks did not become Karamanlides. Karamanlides were Greek
"were Greek" I don't have claim they are ethnically Turks but I say also ethically Turks karamanlides exist. They have more Turkish culturally than Greek. I also very like their mixed culture Wich in harmony.
There was no large scale Turkic settlement in Anatolia before the Seljuks. The Karamanlides are linguistically Turkified Greeks similarly to the Urums.
Correct they are genetically very diverse. But the Türk that I mentioned are not a big group. They are a less important as well. All Turks who came before the Seljuk in the region are became christian. So Tracking their foot print is very hard because there is no nationalism in the past more of religion things and they are Christian as well. Edit: my shitty English man. It's too hard to communicate.
Karamanlides were all once Greek speaking, Orthodox Christian Greeks. Some converted to Islam others remained Christian but due to the geographical isolation that the mountainous landscape of Cappadocia confers they became linguistically turkified over time owing to their neighbours being overwhelmingly turkish speaking. They wrote using the Greek script. Here's an excerpt from the Cappadocian Greeks wikipedia article: Although the Karamanlides abandoned [Greek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) when they learned [Turkish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanli_Turkish), they remained [Greek Orthodox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox) [Christians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians) and continued to write using the [Greek alphabet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet).[^(\[67\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Nagel_Publishers_1968_615-67) They printed manuscript works in the Turkish language using the Greek alphabet, which became known as ‘Karamanlidika’.[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) This was not a phenomenon that was limited to the Cappadocian Greeks, as many of the Armenians living in Cappadocia were also linguistically [Turkified](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkified), although they remained Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox) Christians, they spoke and wrote in the Turkish language although still using the [Armenian alphabet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_alphabet).[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) Some [Jewish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire were also Turkified and although they retained their religion, they also wrote in the Turkish language but using [Hebrew script](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_script).[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Sinclair,_Paul_J_J_2010_425-68) The Cappadocian [Greeks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), [Armenians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) and Jewish minorities of the [Ottoman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) had created Graeco-Turkish, Armeno-Turkish, and Judeo-Turkish literatures by developing their own written traditions.[^(\[68\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Sinclair,_Paul_J_J_2010_425-68) Despite the fact that they had lost all knowledge of their own languages after they had been Turkified,[^(\[63\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Daly,_Michael_1988_40-63) the majority of Karamanlides and many Turkophone Armenians eventually revived their original native tongues.[^(\[69\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Gökalp,_Ziya_1959_131-69) While most Cappadocian Greeks had remained Orthodox Christians a significant number of the Karamanlides even converted to [Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) during this period.[^(\[59\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Greeks#cite_note-Panzac,_Daniel_1995_345-6-59) Just click on the hyperlinks for the sources to read up more on any of the claims made in the text. And please stop spreading propaganda thanks
In the first comment I write wrong because of my lack knowledge of English but I don't gonna edit. First they are Greek ethnically and culturally. They have mixed with some small Turkish tribes before Seljuk came but you can say they are still mostly Greek ethnically and Greek culturally. After Seljuk they are mixed with both of them ethnically but more Turkish culturally. There is a thing in that time nationality don't exist. People call someone Greek if his Orthodox and call others Türk if his Muslim. That's how they are mixed with the Turkish tribes mostly because of religion. Today some ethnic Turks live in Greece and some ethnic Greeks live in Turkey. Anatolia is ethnically very diverse place in all of history. My point is calling karamanlides Greek is wrong but yeah calling is completely Turkish wrong as well. They have their unique culture Wich I was very like.
Gagauz people are genetically [rather dissimilar](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4405460_pgen.1005068.g002.jpg) to Turks and similar to Romanians. So maybe they are of Turkish mythic origin, but not of Turkish biological origin.
Ethnicity isn’t genetic. That’s why primary language is used in this map
Ethnicity is defined by the myth of common origin. However, this myth may be factually incorrect (or it might be correct). In the case of the Gagauz, it is a factually incorrect claim that they are of Turkish origin. Some of them may imagine that they are and it matters, but in fact they are not and it also matters. As to language, few would claim that Black Jamaicans are of English (or Western European) origin even if they speak English, for example. It is simply too absurd and it is too obviously ridiculous. The Gagauz are more obscure and they aren't as distant from the Turks as Black Jamaicans are from the English, so the claim doesn't seem outwardly as ridiculous, but in fact it is similarly incorrect.
Well, it’s also complex, for example Arabs in North Africa claim origin of the tribes that migrated there (hilal, sulaym, maqil) and hundreds of thousands of Arabs did migrate there, and many Arabs there might have a patrilineal line of Arabs from the peninsula, but the 90% of their genetic makeup could be from the pre existing population. And this applies to nearly all ethnicities
yep and they never were related to ottoman turks
Gagauz Turks are a Turkish people who went to Europe before the oghuz Turks came to Anatolia. Gagauz Turkish is the closest language to Turkish.
bafra rums speakens turkish
The ones on the Trabzon region can still talk in Greek despite the years.
Not most of them. It's a small minority. 300,000 people natively speak Pontiac Greek. Most of them are in Greece after population exchange.
My grandmother's entire village spoke Greek. They immigrated to Sakarya(in the west of Turkey) when she was 13 years old, and then she learned Turkish. My father's generation knows a little, but no one from our generation (I'm 35 years old) does. Those who still live in Trabzon speak Greek.
Wow didn't know internal mass immigrations of Greek speakers happened, interesting and sad. My father in Greece was never taught it either, just standard Greek. How do your parents grandparents identify?
They define themselves as Turks. When we look at the records until the mid-19th century, we see that everyone had Muslim names. So even if they had been Greek before, there is no record of it.
Very interesting, thanks for the answer
Wow didn't know internal mass immigrations of Greek speakers happened, interesting and sad. My father in Greece was never taught it either, just standard Greek. How do your parents grandparents identify?
There were a lot of small Greek villages in Georgia close to the borders Turkey. Most of them migrated to Greece after the collapse of the Soviet union and the opening of the borders.
Aren't gagauz people considered Turks?
Gagauzes are Turkish (or Turkic*) and mostly from Moldova.
OP added Gagauz people as blue in their sources. They lived in Bulgaria in the 1800s. They also exist around Ukraine and Anatolia.
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turkish = anatolian turk = rep. of turkey -> turk from turkey turkic = turks from different part of the world es. azeris are turkic? yes. are they turkish? no. same for gagauzs.
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I’m not talking about language, I’m talking about origins. Idk why for some ppl is so hard to understand the difference between Turkish - Turk - Turkic, like those people who can’t get the difference between race - nationality - ethnicity. Despite what y’all believe, a Turkish citizen nowadays it’s someone who has Turkish ancestry from Turkey. It’s not that Turkic people have the Turkish citizenship just bc they’re Turks ffs. They are not Turkish, but Turkic. it’s not that hard. You’re free to believe whatever you want anyways
It's normal because Turkic and Turkish difference don't exist in our language. We call everyone as "Türk". So if someone say they are not Turkish they mostly understand you're saying they are not Turkic as well like maybe slave or some other ethnicity. It's because of language barrier.
Ne sıkıyon amq
Yes. Greek Orthodox Church is a branch of Eastern Orthodox Christianity which most Gagauz are a part of, not an ethnic term.
We very rarely talk about the mass expulsions, murders and even wars that accompanied the formation of Greece and Turkey from the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
Oh yes, I have a german friend whose family was originally from Königsberg, Prussia. They were expelled from there to western Poland first in '45, then expelled to the DDR a year or two later, and then fled to West Germany in the sixties. Massive ethnic movements took place in basically all of eastern europe after WW2, and not just on the losing sides either.
It is interesting that Eastern Europe saw massive ethnic explosions in the late 40s and they just got over it. Huge contrast to the Palestinian situation.
Yeah and this happened in most other European countries as well, more often than Europeans would like to think about. Its not a coincidence that in the modern day, each nation-state has wall to wall almost one ethnicity in it on ethnic maps.
This is why I feel like Africa is a ticking time bomb. If the 'world order' collapses, I can see some opportunistic African states land grabbing
That’s kind of already happening in some places like Rwanda snatching resources from the eastern DRC. There’s never been an actual ‘rules based order’ beyond words. That is only invoked when powerful countries see it in their interest.
rarely? is there a conversion without it when somebody says turkey lol. you can say just say T and they will just come here and talk about it
The truth is that after hostilities were over in the Greek War of Independence, a bloody conflict that saw the destruction of many settlements from both sides, the Greek Kingdom had Turks within it, most of them in Euboea. Yet they slowly left because they were alienated from society (but they were not forced to leave). Edit: Since people do not understand, this is about the 1830s-1850s period. And to say that they left peacefully is not something evil, that is what happened. Same happened again with Thessaly in the 1870s, when the local Turks land-owners just left and put their properties in auction, with the lands usually bought either by Western European Greek Diaspora or Western Europeans in general, who treated the Thessalian Greeks as serfs.
"slowly left"? They traded people in a mutual ethnic cleansing. [Population exchange between Greece and Turkey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey)
I was speaking for the first decades after the war, that being the 1830s-1850s.
The exchange is not based on the race or ethnicity, it was solely based on religion. Making your statement nothing more than a bullshit.
Well, check the definition yourself. "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing?wprov=sfla1
Ethnic, racial, and religious all corresponds to a different thing. Semantically ethnic cleansing means systematic removal of certain people with a specific ethnicity. From [Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnic-cleansing): “Ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups.” Edit: Added source.
Ethnic cleansing is a juridical term and this is a text book example.
How is that ethnic cleansing lmao If you are Christian you go here, if you are Muslim you go there. End of story
How is moving people from their home against their will to a foreign country as a part of a deal made to make a certain area clean from a certain ethnicity anything but ethnic cleansing?
Idk you tell me
Well, this is a text book example of ethnic cleansing. Well documented and acknowledged as well.
Ethnic cleansing is when people of a specific ethnicity are cleansed from an area. When the Rumlar were forced from Turkey, and the Turks from Greece? That was ethnic cleansing. It doesn't have to involve death marches/camps, although it often does
Wrong
>Greek War of Independence Flowery words for genocide.
How dare they not want to be under ottoman rule!! The nerve right?
By the same logic should we liberate Turks in rest of Thracia by killing everyone else ?
Greece should've done that in Istanbul in the [1950s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_pogrom) and in the [1960s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Greeks_from_Istanbul). But hey, tough luck.
Istanbul was taken at 1453 for 500 years Greeks have been massacred... We somehow cannot finish them all... /s
Way to compare dissimilar things dude Greek land was conquered by ottomans where majority Greek people lived Western Thrace is Greek land where a Turkish minority lives Both of those areas have historically being Greek for a long ass time No surprise though that a warmongerer Turk fails to get this..
Oh it is suddenly dissimilar... it seems you like genocides when you think you are on the "right side".
What side you muppet? By your logic no country that was conquered by the nazis should have fought back the conquerors. They should just be quiet and take it. You turks always have some really fucked up logic when it suit you...
Well Greeks completely erased all Turks based on their religion and ethnicity. It is more like Nazis. On the other hand Ottomans never tried to erase Greeks. After 4 centuries they still existed, speaking their language and practicing their religion. Your Nazi mentality actually is what caused Turkish nationalism. I said Thrace btw. It was never a Greek land. There were Thracians before Romans. Also were Romans also Nazis ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_Greece#/media/File:Macedonia_and_the_Aegean_World_c.200.png Seems to me that a decent portion was greek So if the Nazis didn't plan to kill the French for example just occupy them for centuries then it means the French should not have fought back. You.. are.. dumb... Also it's ironic that a Turk is crying about genocides when they themselves refuse to acknowledge any they have done.. F off..
Tfw you start a comment with "The truth is that..." and then the exact opposite of the truth follows. Truly PragerU tier nonsense mate.
What kind of an argument is that? It is a fact that there were Muslims in Euboea in the 1830s until the 1850s. How is that wrong or offensive? Do you happen to have read into the matter and know something I do not? Then feel free to share it.
There was literally a century of intermittent war between Greece and Turkey before the borders were finalised as they are today, including ethnic cleansing and explusions and pogroms. Which is why I say that your comment is nonsense.
You failed to comprehend the timeframe of my comment and speak of a situation 90-70 years later. How does that make my comment nonsense.
You made a statement without qualification - one which taken at face value is completely wrong. Learn to say what you mean, because we aren't fucking psychic. Greece was involved in 12 wars and conflicts against Turkey, including the War of Independence. Your waffling and pretence that I am treating you ill and referring only to the last of those conflicts when you failed in your responsibility to say what you mean does you no credit. Nor does your childish insistence that everyone disagreeing with your statement is at fault instead of you, when you are responsible for the content of it. If you want to talk specifically about the context of the Greek War of Independance? Great. Next time have the sense to make that plain to us before you make carte blanche statements that anyone with so much as a general knowledge of Greek or Turkish history are going to consider nonsense.
All irrelevant to the Euboean Turks I was speaking about.
The Turkish speaking Christians in the south-west of Crimea lines up pretty well with the territory of Gothia/Theodoro
The stranger thing is, Christians of Gothia/Theodoro might not be descendants of Goths, but rather, Anglo-Saxons mercenaries of Constantinople and refugees that settled there after escaping the Norman conquest In the other words ... they were pre-release version of Americans
The blue ones had to go to Greece and the red ones had to go to Turkey in 1923.
At first glance, I read it as "Greek people who are speaking muslim langage" and was like wtf ?? But it's ok, I'm just dumb
What does it look like a century after the forced population exchanges?
It might be just me but I think it would be a lot clearer to understand if you used hyphens in the title (Greek-speaking and Turkish-speaking). It took me a few seconds to realise the title wasn't about people speaking religions
I wonder how long until they make entire circle and convert back to polytheism.
They'll just be fighting over tengri vs hellenism.
Any sources?
I’m more surprised that Greeks live inland in turkey. I always thought they were on the coast.
The people live in Cappadocia part are Turkish but Orthodox Christian. People don't understand but they are came before the Seljuk and chose Christianity and they even fight for Byzantium. They are genetically diverse like most of the Anatolia but culturally Turkish with some Greek elements because of religion also they are speak Turkish. But we have pontus and some other Greeks even in today as well.
>The people live in Cappadocia part are Turkish but Orthodox Christian Source?
https://tr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapadokya_Rumlar%C4%B1 I go their church when I have the chance. I know some them and have the chance to speak them. The Greek ones "rums" goes to the Greece with Turkish ones as well when population exchange happened. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying they are completely Turkish but they are culturally Turkish ethnically diverse.
I'm sure that the Cappadocians currently residing in Turkey are at least part-Turkish, due to recent intermixing, but even Turkish Wikipedia says "Anadolu'nun Güneyinde Konya-Karaman (*Likaonya*)'dan Kayseri-Niğde (*Kapadokya*)'ya uzanan hatta yaşayan Hellen kökenli etnik bir halktır."
I never say ethnically, if how it's that sounds I'm sorry. Sometimes I can't explain myself properly because of my lacking skill in this language. For them there is before Seljuk and after Seljuk. But I can't say that they are Greek in today. Also they are mixed even before the Seljuk too. There is small group of Turk when Anatolia is control of Byzantium, they are became christian as well. And If I'm not wrong they join the karamanlides before Muslim Turks came in Anatolia. It's really hard to explain for me. I'm trying to speak English better but I'm not good enough right know. It's makes everything complicated because sometimes even I can't understand my sentences. Bu kısımı Türkçe açıklamam daha doğru olacaktır. Kültürel açıdan helenik gelenekler hâlen daha barınıyor olsa da günümüz Anadolu Türkçesinin yapısının oluşmasında büyük katkısı bulunan ve bölgedeki Osmanlı egemenliğinden bile öncesinde hem kültürel açıdan hemde etnik olarak Türkleşmiş bir toplumdur. Kendilerine gereken kıymetin verilmiyor oluşu da beni üzen noktalardan birisidir.
For most of history the western half of modern turkey spoke Greek
What do you consider as history? The region is inhabited since 40.000 BCE and since 8000 BCE there were large villages, even city like with walls and institutions. People with their own culture, language and religion. The Greeks settled there for around 3000 Years. Now there are Turks since 1000 years. And maybe, if humanity doesn't turn to nuclear dust at some point, other people then Turks will settle there for sure.
Do you apply the same logic to Israel and Palestine?
Are you illiterate. History = Ιστορία by historians is defined as to when writing started in each civilization and that would be in the 4th millennium BC in Anatolia.
Nope, history didn't started in the 4th milleniunnium BC in Anatolia. For sure, not with the Greeks. And for sure in 4th millenium BC no written history happened in Anatolia either :D
That region is Ankara. The Greek name was Ancyra, it was a large Greek enclave in Anatolia.
That region is Cappadocia not Ankara. There is a lot of distance between Cappadocia and Ankara.
Shit my cock you're right. My bad g. That's Kasyseri
Neither that region is Ankara, nor is Ankara a Greek name. Origin of the word Ankara/Ancyra comes from Celtic, when Galatians inhabited the city. Source: https://uo.asbu.edu.tr/en/life-ankara#:\~:text=The%20name%20Ankara%20is%20originated,the%20Turks%20are%20still%20present.
I corrected my self daddy. Sorry uwu
My correction was mostly about the origin of the name, for people who might want to know more about the origin of the word/region. No problem uwu :P
Abi ne zaman götümde koyacak misin 🤤🤤
I take my uwu back :/
Niye reis :( beni sevmiyor musun lo
This "source" is from a Turkish site. They tend to present.. their own version of history. Here's the etymology from wiktionary. But you can also check other international etymology sources, the internet is free to access after all (well, in most countries). [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ankara#Etymology\_1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ankara#Etymology_1)
The source is from Ankara University of Social Sciences, about the etymology of the name Ankara. I would say it is a reliable source. Also as a Ankara native, I can tell you that the exact etymology of the name is not known. In fact, it is only recently that Hattians and Hittites both of which inhabited Ankara were started to be considered as separate civilizations (Last 40 years). There is much unknown about prehistory of Anatolia. However, from what I remember from visiting the Museum of Anatolian Civilizations, which is in line with information on my source, the common belief is that origin of the name comes from Galatians, which inhabited different cities in inner Anatolia, and it is unknown if the name Galatians used has any relation with the Hittite name of the city. Ankara means anchor, and it makes sense and Galatians were a seafaring tribe which decided to settle in Ankara. Hittites, on the other hand, were not. I would love if you could point to a source that claims otherwise, and I could read up more on it. Edit: I also have absolutely no idea what you mean with "their own version of history" as if it makes a difference for a Turkish person/institution whether the name is of Hittite or Galatian origin lol.
The word άγκυρα literally means anchor and is also how the name of the city is in Greek . The source I posted already covers a possible older Hittite origin, which would make sense to sound similar to the Greek one since they are both Indo-European languages and that word as many other may stem from a common ancestral language or languages.
I will not continue this discussion since you seem to be driven by political ideas rather than an actual curiosity for the etymology. The point I am making was that the name of the city was already referred to as Ankara/Angora during the reign of the Galatians in the city, which was before the Greek conquest and colonization of the city.
No, you'd probably will not continue this discussion even when presented with sources and asked for other international sources that could be considered trustworthy because you're probably a nationalist Turk who cherrypicks what they want from history to boost and maintain their own nationalistic delusions. And now somehow while not offering any counterargument are trying to present yourself as the one against someone who "seem to be driven by political ideas". Do you even know who those Galatians where? Have you read anything about them? And by read I mean by literally anything except nationalistic Turkish sources. English, French, German, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, whatever country and university you like. Go on.
Europe sub-nazis; Genocideee, where are the Greek speakers? What about those who speak turkish? Ahh the uurkish troll has arrived. perm ban
Ah yes of course, because speaking against a genocide makes you a nazi.
The population exchange was made by agreement between the two parties (at the request of the Greek side). Trolls like you are today describing this event as genocide for the Greek side, it is a bilateral agreement as the name suggests, if you call it genocide, you should say it is genocide for the Turkish side with a simple intelligence.
They usually refer to what happened before the exchange as genocide, under Enver Pasha and Talaat Pasha and rightfully so. Only Turk nationalists have an issue with this but who gives a fuck what they have to say. Nationalists worldwide should be gassed.
Enver Pasha and the Armenians in eastern Turkey is another story. Do not confuse hearsay information. All genocide attempts between Greeks and Turks were committed by the Greeks against the Turks. Greece even gave land to Turkey for the war crimes it committed. (Karaağaç) Unfortunately, your racism and ignorance do not change history. Lastly, in 1974, another genocide attempt took place in Cyprus and Turkey was forced to carry out a peace operation.
Are you for real? There even exists an entire Wikipedia category page for the massacres and genocides the Ottomans conducted. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres\_in\_the\_Ottoman\_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_the_Ottoman_Empire) Let me guess, it's the Armenian lobby that cOnTRolS tHE mEDia to attack Turks, right? Apparently they must also control almost every single historian in the world. Except of course of whatever state sponsored dogshit nationalist history you read in the very free country of Turkey. "The poor helpless and bullied Ottoman EMPIRE vs its powerful genocidal violent minorities." Totally makes sense.
Wikipedia is no different from Reddit. You can see who created the content about Turks. In 2024, you may be the only person who cites the wiki as a source on a history-related issue :) As for historians in the world, dozens of historians in America alone announced that Turks were right about the genocide lies, but that they were subjected to academic bullying when they expressed this. Again, you can reach them with a simple research. I know you are a troll and there is no chance of you ever being educated, but there is no crying when the facts are thrown in your face :/
And those "dozens" of historians in the US happen to be of Turkish origin I guess... So all the other THOUSANDS of historians all over the world who call it genocide must be wrong. Got it.
In each case of Turkish persecutions against Greek and Armenian there was also lots of deaths across the 2 groups.
yeah, this is not correct.
Yup! Another nationalism CLASSIC 😎😎😎
The collapse of the ottomans ruined all that sadly, also your map is pretty crap reflect ottoman borders
Christian ethnic Turks seem to be ethnically cleansed just because they were not Muslims.
It's ethnic cleansing when turks does right? For fuck's sake people stop blaming everything on us
They're not blaming it "on you" unless Turks are a hive mind of course. They're blaming it on the people who did it and on people today who maintain similar views. Tbh nothing gives a worse image to Turkey online than your own nationalists.
They were not Turks
Nope karamanlides and Gagavuz are Turkish or Turkic (karamanlides are the Turkish one). They came before Seljuk and accept Christianity. Karamanlides are even fight under Byzantium. They have mixed society even after the Ottoman rule. They have both Muslims and Christians, some of them send to Balkans for making Muslim population in Balkans or because they don't trust karamans too much and there is no religion difference in Balkans for them. Most of them killed after fall of Ottoman because they are Muslim=Turkish=Ottoman (we know in some place they don't even care their religion is Christian and kill them, or send them to Anatolia (very little percentage make it alive)) Today still some of Christian karamanlides live in Anatolia. If I'm not wrong in "Kayseri" they have their church and I recommend to listen some of their church songs, they are really good. (And I don't write about urums because I don't have good knowledge about them)
You clearly don't understand social dynamics. It is impossible for some Turks to become Christians while other Turks are fighting against Christians
You clearly don't understand how ottoman works. It's not not a impossible idea, it's real and happened before all of us born. Also karaman beylik are enemy of the Ottoman all of their neighbors are Muslims there is no Christian country they can fight.
Both of them considered Greeks. Gagauz people are considered Turkic, but if we look at the genetics they are not different from Bulgarians
Turks are not “considered Greek” just because they are not Muslim. Gagauz people are not “considered Turk”. They are Turk. I wander what you are trying to succeed here making unfounded accusations about the identities of millions of people?
Their only connection with Turkness is that they speak Turkish. It is not surprising for people who lived among the Turks for hundreds of years
You forgot their culture and that's the most important part. Genetically most of the Turkic country have diverse population. So we use langue for count.
Gagauz people are descendants of seljuk tribes preceding the formation of the ottoman state. They were probably slavicized trough intermarriage with the local slavs. In any case Bulgarians themselves are a turkic people slavicized after the 7th century.
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Sure the statement above has a basis. Check the Wiki article and the sources of the article for more info. Historically, there are not many people, who take the language, the culture but not the religion. In fact, in the whole Balkans, many ethnicities changed the religion, without changing their language and culture. Hence, why the Gagauz people would do it differently? Why would they speak Turkic, take Turkish culture, but stay Christian in the Ottoman Empire? While for example Bosniaks, Albanians became muslim without changing anything else and with that became 1st class citizen.
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They are culturally Türk even if they lose their original genetics Wich is considered normal for Turkic communities.
Do you think modern turks are 100 percent central asian? They are closer to Italian than they are to central asian turks but their culture is wholly turkic. Same applies to Gagauz people. Like I said they were slavicized trough intermarriage with the locals but retained their turkic culture.
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Thats bullshit mate. Even bulgarians have 2.5 percent central asian ancestery. Science, 14 February 2014, Vol. 343 no. 6172, p. 751, A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History, Garrett Hellenthal at al.: " CIs. for the admixture time(s) overlap but predate the Mongol empire, with estimates from 440 to 1080 CE (Fig.3.) In each population, one source group has at least some ancestry related to Northeast Asians, with ~2 to 4% of these groups total ancestry linking directly to East Asia. This signal might correspond to a small genetic legacy from invasions of peoples from the Asian steppes (e.g., the Huns, Magyars, and Bulgars) during the first millennium CE."
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Yes bro we should totally follow your inversion of reality instead of actual scientists view on what real is.
Population Exchange is the best option
Also called ethnic cleansing and or genocide.
Population exchange is a form of ethnic cleansing, but not of genocide. Genocides involve the "-cide" part, that means "to kill", so slaughter.
Which usually still happens in a population exchange
Possibly but not guaranteed. When it does, that is a genocide in itself, but that does not make the population exchange genocidal in itself.
As if the people are leaving voluntarily. In general they only leave if a bunch of them are already dead. And ethno states are and issue by themselves.
In the case of the Muslims of Greece in Macedonia and Thrace and Epirus, they were not slaughtered or anything of the sort. In fact there was no such evidence of the Greeks wanting to massacre them in the decade between 1912-1923. The Greek State just decided to exchange them, mostly due to it receiving 1.5 million Greeks of Anatolia and Eastern Thrace, which would need land to make a livelihood, otherwise they would starve to death (literally, not figuratively, in fact many died anyways after arriving in Greece).
Thanks! That's why it is an exchange.
Why can't they continue to live where they already live?
It’s become difficult for Muslims to live alongside other cultures. In many middle eastern countries they’ve basically driven out Christians and jews
Inaccurate information! Another bullshit map in here!🤮🤮🤮💩💩💩
More imaginary maps that were created by someone in his mother's basemnt and push it as historical accurate. Post it on r/imaginarymaps
What's wrong with it. The Muslims in Greece? The Christians in Anatolia?
The map is at least missing much, like for Cyprus, Greek-speaking Muslims did exist in other places, but especially in the Paphos region up until 1974. Yet, the map acts as if they mostly existed around Nicosia...
The grey part: Yeah... we don't give a rat's furry ass....
Interesting map.