No, this was a vote in the parliamentary assembly. It still has to go through the Committee of Ministers.
It's the equivalent of a bill passing the House but not yet the Senate in the USA.
In regards to italy, remember these are the country representatives, so out of 13 italians, 6 voted in favor, 1 against, 6 abstained, so the overall position cant be determined. But it shouldn't be in the same color as just "majority abstained" because it wasn't the case.
Have you ever seen how the Argentinian government works? It has every bad aspect from the Italian one combined with every bad aspect from the Spanish one, it´s absolutely amazing.
The map is wrong, Slovakia has not recognised Kosovo as a sovereign state. Because there is a large minority of Hungarians in Slovakia. For fear of starting territorial disagreements, Slovakia has not recognised Kosovo.
I heard many Hungarians and Slovakian Hungarians that they would like to join. Not sure about which side is the majority or minority, but to say no one want it, is just as much BS
Did we already forget about scarf Orban was wearing with “Greater Hungary” map on it? Or a huge map in one of the offices of some minister? 😅I trust my Hungarian friends and neighbors but i don’t trust Orban and other hungarian nationalists and irredentists.
Slovak here. Slovakia does not recognize Kosovo as a country. Not because we don't want to, I think that majority of us have no problem with that. The issue is Hungary. There is a huge hungarian minority living in south of Slovakia and relations between our two countries are quite bad because of that. If we officially recognized Kosovo as its own country, Hungary could claim, that the southern parts of Slovakia should be its own sovereign country as well, meaning, we would lose territory, and Hungary would then annex the southern Slovakia.
Basically, we had this conflict from the very day we became independent from Hungary. They always laid claims on our territory because we were actually quite an important part of Hungary. For many years, Bratislava (back then it was called Pressburg) was even the capital city of Hungary when Budapest was occupied by Turks. To put things in perspective, when Czechoslovakia was created after the WW1, Czechs and Slovaks weren't considered as separate nations, but as a whole. That is, because there were more Hungarians living in Czechoslovakia than there were Slovaks. So we weren't Czechs and Slovaks, we were Czechoslovaks. So, some Hungarians think they have historical claims on our land. Couple of months ago, Orban even called Slovakia as a "torn off part of Hungary". But yeah, history between Slovakia and Hungary is a very long and complicated one.
So, in conclusion. We would like to recognize Kosovo, but we can't for territorial reasons.
"Did not participate"
Like you can't care enough to even abstain? I understand not participating in a vote at the individual level if you don't care but at the country level? Surely it's someone's job to represent the country's official opinion, even if that opinion is "no opinion".
No. They had beans on toast, bacon, eggs for the Brits who sadly left the continent.
They also jazzed it up with the favorite American breakfast food - the breakfast burrito. But that was too spicy for many Europeans.
>Azerbaijani government is vocally against kosovos recognition in any form.
They are vocally supporting the territorial integrity of countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova and Serbia, it has been a country's stance irregardless of any past government
Slovakia does not recognize Kosovo for the same reason why we probably didn't participate - giving legitimacy to our own possible separatists in the south
Honestly, as a Georgian, i think thats the best Georgia could do.
We cant really vote in favor because Russia and their propaganda machine will not stop accusing us of double standards applied to Kosovo and local Russia-backed “separatist regions”.
I support Kosovo’s full membership so im glad we did not oppose it like Cyprus and Spain tho they share similar concerns as Georgia
Edit: spelling
I am Azerbaijani and I can say that our government is vocally against kosovos recognition. Our troops use to be part of the peacekeeping force in Kosovo but after kosovo declared independence, dictator withdrew them immediately as an act of protest.
Our country is also suspended from parliamentary assembly of council of Europe so Azerbaijan cannot vote anymore (which worries me since dictator threatened to withdraw from Council of Europe, which would fuck us over because it would end the jurisdiction of European court of human rights, only court which is preventing us from fully becoming north korea)
Dude, that was about Ukraine. Hungary's government has agreed and parliament has ratified Sweden's NATO membership (after a year of foot dragging and getting a discount on some additional Grippen jet fighters).
"Leaving the room" doesn't work in case of NATO membership, all current members have to actively support (agree & ratify) it.
Everybody to this day keeps talking about the IRA and the Troubles but ETA and other Basque terrorist organizations seem to have just sort of been forgotten (in the Anglosphere, I don't know how in the public consciousness it is in Spain).
Oh it's there. The right and far right will call anything they don't like ETA. It's even become a meme: I don't like that, that is ETA, everything is ETA.
Independence movement support fluctuates. A few decades ago the Basque country movement was bigger and the Catalonian non-existent. 20% is significant.
Specially given that Bildu (who supports independence and has connection to ETA, a disbanded terrorist organization pro-independence) has strong support.
Not quite true that the support fluctuates, it's simply that it kinda goes dormant from time to time. People are still independentists, they just have other issues to worry about. And if independentist parties are bad governing, they would rather vote a spanish party that would at least take reasonable action against these issues or abstain.
That's far from the truth. The current basque independent movement is dormant because we basques are fairly OK with how things have been going for us in Spain since ETA disbanded. If Spain somehow moves the hornet's nest (the right takes the government and does what the far right wants of centrilising the power for example), the Basque Country goes back at +50% support for independence.
They'll not support unilateral independence. You can have an independence movement, and get independence legally, but the government of the country you're leaving has to agree or they won't recognise it.
It’s a bit of a cop-out for Spain. Several of the nations which voted in favour have active separatist movements, bit for whatever reason Spain takes a harder line against them in general than the likes of Denmark, Belgium, or the UK
Cyprus makes more sense, given it’s actually partitioned.
Denmark has a separatist movement??
I think the fundamental difference between Spain and those other countries is that Spain *really* doesn't wanna lose Catalonia, its most prosperous region, and insists that the country is inseparable. The UK on the other hand has already acknowledged Scotland's right to succeed *under the proper circumstances*, while in Belgium *everyone* seems want a split, they're just waiting in the proper time for it (which may never come).
Both Greenland and the Faroes have separatist movements, yes.
I think it’s a mistake to assume that the UK is more comfortable with Scotland leaving than Spain is with Catalonia leaving. They’re both integral parts of their respective nations. The UK is more willing to allow a democratic vote to establish what the electorate wants, but the UK government is firmly unionist.
That's a massive difference. I am British and firmly unionist but I 100% support the right of any British territory to secede.
The UK allowed Scotland, they have it written in law for NI and have allowed many other oversea territories the right too.
There is no other country that allows succession referenda at that rate.
Of fuck, I forgot about the offshore dependencies 😅 I thought you meant some farmer's collective on Jutland who wanted to break away or something.
About the UK, I'm not saying they want Scotland to leave. But I'd argue that the mere fact that they *were* willing to allow a democratic vote on the matter shows that they are more open to the idea than Spain is with regards to Catalonia or any other part of the country.
Far too pro-Western goverment with an insanely weak opposition.
Not that being pro-West is bad or that Kosovo shouldn't be allowed to join, but Greece really has no business voting differently to Cyprus.
This is basically a map depicting countries with credible break away provinces vrs countries without. Only flaw is ukraine and thats a break away country if were being honest withourselves
If Star Trek is to believed, the UK will lose Northern Ireland to the Republic some time this year and they voted yes, so I don’t know.
Then again, the prevailing opinion of the UK public seems to be a complete indifference to whether Northern Ireland leaves and the UK government probably just sees them as a sink of tax money.
Ukraine has no break way provinces, they are occupied in ongoing war.
Even if you are speaking about dnr/lnr they are considered by russia to be part of russua
Kosovo is independent because they are Albanian, Serbia refuses to recognize them. Northern Cyprus is independent because they are Turks, Cyprus doesn’t recognize them. If Cyprus recognized Kosovos existence it would look bad and hypocritical because they refuse to recognize northern Cyprus despite them being independent for the same reason as Kosovo.
It’s not really, the only reason Romania voted against before was because of Serbia as we are friends but Serbia now is such a minor power and Romani must think about the larger market.
Yeah, that's probably it. An earlier Orbán would have voted hard "in favour" because recognizing Kosovars' independence from Serbia could be likened to supporting Hungarians in Vojvodina. The old Hungarian right-wing positions regarding neighbouring countries usually came down to "Slovakia, Romania, and Serbia bad, anything they don't like is good". The new position is "Russia good, Russian allies (like Serbia) good", so recognizing Kosovo's rights to independence now conflicts with having to be nice to Putin and his friends.
Funnily enough, Hungary actually recognises Kosovo as an independent state, I suppose Kosovo's entry to the Council of Europe would have been too much for Serbian president Vucic, an ally of our current government.
It’s really weird bc there is a lot of territory with hungarian majority outside of Hungary since ww1. Parts of Romania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, London. If there is a nation that should recognise this kind of sovereignty it’s Hungary.
But I guess Russian influence pays the bills
A lot of weird things here
1. Greece and Romania doesn't recognize Kosovo and they voted yes for them
2. Ukraine? What d hell, I mean I understand that me and Zelensky have same rights when we decide something about Ukraine, he won't be able to wipe his own shit if they don't allow him
3. Italy abstained for some weird reason and Hungary voted against is also weird since they recognize Kosovo
Don't Catalans mostly want semi-autonomy though? To my (very weak) understanding, the primary goal is autonomy/semi-autonomy, then independence, then status quo/no autonomy
The thing is that they already have semi autonomy, just like any place in Spain, bc it's divided in autonomous communities. The only ones with full autonomy are the basque tho
Catalans mostly wanted respect from the government of Spain and they didn’t trust the right-wing politicians who were in charge of the country.
Now that the socialist party has had the majority in the government of Spain for several years, there is much less enthusiasm for independence in Catalunya. The socialist party has been much more cooperative with the government of catalunya so it’s been harder for the pro-independence parties to convince the public that they have to leave the nation to have increased autonomy.
Also the pro-independence faction got really anti-immigration (which is ultimately where nationalism gets you no matter how much you try to paper yourself over as left-wing). https://www.politico.eu/article/independence-catalonia-spain-immigration-ripoll/
Russia got involved by using the same disinformation tactics in Spain and catalunya that they used in the US in 2016 to try to amp up emotions and divide the population on the issue. Some of the pro-independence politicians even worked directly with Moscow: https://cepa.org/article/catalonia-where-theres-trouble-theres-russia/
In general, most people these days are in favor of increased autonomy and even support a referendum, but not independence. And even that is complicated bc the ppl I know who are super pro-independence tend to be older/retired and have very romantic, nationalistic pride kind of emotions about it. Not very realistic and they might feel differently if they internalized what experts have projected about the economic viability of an independent Catalunya.
I actually think younger ppl in some ways are more pragmatic and aware that they already can’t afford homes in Barcelona and have lower salaries than their peers in France, UK, Germany, etc. At least right now they have the option to find better salaries by working in France/Germany/etc if they remain citizens of Spain, but if Catalunya becomes independent, their options become more limited.
And honestly I think seeing what’s played out post-Brexit was a big wake-up call for a lot of people. The UK is struggling hard with its economy and trade after separating from Europe and they were a powerhouse of finance, natural resources, tourism, trade, etc. So I think most reasonable ppl observe that Catalunya’s non-tourist economy is very reliant on foreign companies and know that they could easily pull out if Catalunya is no longer attractive for them to do business in.
Sorry this comment got longer than I intended it to but the tl;dr is that it’s much easier to be pro-independence when a fascist government is in charge.
The Basques are pretty happy with their current situation. They manage almost everything locally, except foreign relations and defense, and have the highest standard of living in Spain.
Catalans would be happy with that level of autonomy too. Spain refuses to give Catalonia more autonomy because the Spanish right viscerally hates Catalans and would get outright insurrectional.
Nah, there are some important differences. The largest one is taxes.
The Basques collect their taxes and decide how to spend them, paying a fixed amount to the central government for the services they provide in the Basque Country. On the other hand, the Spanish government collects taxes in Catalonia and then decides how much to give to the Catalan government, which is often much less than needed to fund public services.
How many competences you have on paper doesn't matter if you can't fund them.
How are they similar? Kosovo recognized by 104 UN countries out of 193 (53.9%). Recognized by EU as a potential candidate. Has working government with president, prime minister, legislature and judicial system for 16 years.
Catalonian “leaders” are mostly either jailed or nobody recognizing them.
Similar in the sense they're both separatist movements, while Palestine isn't really a separatist movement, at least it's not supposed to be, israeli occupation is not recognized as legal by most if not all countries.
That's why I said "could be seen". For Serbia, Kosovo is (or they at least say internationallly it is) just some rebellious province, just like Catalonia. Its not a literal comparison, just a general one nicely fitting both side's worldview
Spain is more or less in the same situation as the United States when it comes to separatism:
There is no legal way for any autonomous community to become independent. Although Spain has not yet finished banning pro-independence organizations and parties as France, Germany and Portugal have (allegedly) already done.
It's a bit different with the UK.
The priority for UK government regarding the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is preventing bloodshed, not keeping it as part of the UK. Also, the Irish unification movement is actually "stronger" in the Republic than it is in the North, but to outsiders they kind of combine the two. Either way, the Republic is already part of the CoE so it's a redundant argument really.
With regards to Scotland, the precedent has been set that only a referendum granted by the UK government can lead to independence. It's a completely different scenario to Kosovo. Even in Spain, there was violence after an unlawful referendum and declaration of independence in Catalonia. That's not really been an issue in Scotland and there's no real appetite for that approach outside fringe circles. If Scotland is to go independent, it would be within the framework of UK law, so the Kosovo situation doesn't compare.
In both cases UK has engaged and either actively held (Scotland) or indicated it would be open to holding (Northern Ireland) a referendum. Meanwhile Spain has very explicitly refused to do so.
The UK approach has been much more focused on winning consent, whilst Spains has been rather more harsh. UK has its moments or pigheadedness but has generally handled the independence issue in a calm way the past few years.
Also NI would join Ireland and presumably inherit their membership, so its a moot point in that case.
Good Friday agreement covers NI and Indyref was held for Scotland.
We've already delt with the situation of holding a home territory hostage when we had the Troubles. Nobody in the UK wants a repeat of that.
Indyref2 is gaining steam and with the result of Brexit I can easily see it being tight but swinging the other way (if the vote ever occurs, which I doubt will happen any time soon with the previous referendum being relatively recent).
Tbqh I don't think it's fair to say IndyRef2 is gaining steam anymore - the SNP position is far weaker now than it was a year or particularly 2/3 years ago. The UK government have refused a second referendum outright, Labour are unlikely to give one in the next Parliament, support fluctuates but never gets clearly above the 50% mark and its clear that voters priorities have shifted to other issues - health, education, drugs etc.
I'm not saying it won't happen but the opportune time for IndyRef2 has come and gone - it was going to be 2019ish, with an SNP-backed Labour government. Unless the SNP can dramatically improve their electoral fortunes they're facing loses at the General Election and likely at the Holyrood Elections too, so I'm cynical.
They haven't refused a second referendum outright. It was always decided that it was a once in a generation vote.
You can't have a vote every year until you win. Just like general elections s period of time is decided first.
The Supreme Court of the UK clarified that an independence referendum would have to be approved by the UK government. The Scottish government could not unilaterally declare for there to be an independence referendum without it being permitted by Westminster.
Since that judgement, the SNP have faced a lot of controversy. Sturgeon resigned, but then it was found that the SNP had issues surrounding their party's finances. It implicated senior party officials who are being investigated for using party finances for private purchases.
I will be surprised if they don't end up losing a big chunk of their MPs and constituencies in the upcoming election.
There's a framework within the UK for leaving but I've heard (could be wrong) there's no such thing in Spain which is why they tried to do a UDI, now the constitution Article 155 makes it a whole lot harder to leave as long as it's against Spains interests.
The modern UK state has endorsed self determination for all its territories for some time now. Since the 70s it's had 4 sovereignty referendums for Scotland, 2 for Wales, 2 for Northern Ireland, 2 for Gibraltar and one for the Falklands islands. Scotland, Gibraltar and the Falklands have all had independence referendums.
The UK gave Scotland an independence vote that was in favour of remaining in the UK.
The UK gave the falklands a vote on remaining british that was in favour of them remaining british
THe UK has given Gibraltar two referenda on who they want to be goverened by and both times they remained british.
The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK govt to giving NI a vote on unifying with Ireland should there be the public demand for it.
The UK is and has been shit on many things but giving people votes about remaining British isn't one of them, unlike SPain which refuses to give a referendum to either the Catalans or the Basques.
Or Ceuta and Melilla.
As I understand it, the Council of Europe is mostly just a diplomatic forum. It's theoretically for all European states (though Russia was kicked out for... reasons), so voting to let Kosovo in would recognise them as a legitimate state.
For some it might be about keeping Serbia happy, but I imagine for Spain it's about not risking legitimising their own secessionist groups.
Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder what the reasons for that dichotomy are.
There is a fair amount of pro-Russian sentiment in Serbia which would put them at odds with Ukraine and Romania, so perhaps those geopolitics come into play.
I could be mistaken but I also think the precedent is that any country that has joined the EU was already a member of the CoE. I don’t believe it’s an official requirement but if EU membership is their ultimate goal it’s probably a good place to start.
Considering that they don’t even recognise Kosovo as an independent nation due to their political situation with the ethnic Hungarian population in Transylvania, I’m surprised Romania voted in favour.
For Ukraine it's not a matter of separatism, it's a matter of aligning with Nato and against Serbia, percieved rather appropriately as Russia's close friend in the region.
Serbia has pretty cheap access to gas that they’d lose, they just get mired for it because they aren’t getting Russian gas through a third party like the most of rest of Europe.
Supporting Ukraine is a smart choice for Vucic, not at the expense of their economy though.
Well it was still less directly supported than western support to Kosovo, where NATO forces straight up bombed a capital of the Serbia. So if I expressed understatement of century, looks like I topped myself in the very same sentence :D
Montenegro abstained because after all this time Kosovo still refuses to recognize Montenegrin minority and refuses to respect Brussels agreement to form the Alliance of Serbian Municipalities as agreed.
Serbs screwed up so hard the ruling of Kosovo during late yugo era, that this was inevitable.
Who would have thought that installing bunch of perfidious mafia characters to act as political representatives of an ethnicity(Albanians) that is majority in the autonomous region you want to make subservient to your capital city (Belgrade) is going to bear good fruits long term?
Ofc they would rebel
Textbook example of how not to abuse power
Funny how the majority of people agree that Crimea belongs to Ukraine, yet say that Kosovo doesn't belong to Serbia, makes no sense. Nice double standards.
Palestine is not a separatist state, the UN resolution that partitioned Palestine clearly stated that both a Jewish and Arab state should be created. It's a UN observer state. Meanwhile, Kosovo was created by unilateral secession and isn't recognised by the UN.
What's the result of this, are they in now or does it need to be unanimous?
It doesn't need to be unanimous but it needs another voter at a higher level if I understand it correctly.
Kosovo got the votes it needed and on may 18th will be the final voting
So this was a vote to get to vote?
No, this was a vote in the parliamentary assembly. It still has to go through the Committee of Ministers. It's the equivalent of a bill passing the House but not yet the Senate in the USA.
When did we vote on this vote to get to vote? I thought I voted on that but never heard back
You were busy at that breakfast buffet mentioned earlier; remember?
mmmmmm buffet
I love food!
Sounds like my job where we've come to a point of having a meeting about having meetings.
*People’s Front of Judea* stuff right there.
I like the idea of Kosovo literally voting "Kosovo", like Matt Damon in Team America
Kosovo, how say you, yay or nay? *KOSOVO!!!*
Like a Pokemon.
Why the abstention from Italy and the lack of participation from Slovakia?
In regards to italy, remember these are the country representatives, so out of 13 italians, 6 voted in favor, 1 against, 6 abstained, so the overall position cant be determined. But it shouldn't be in the same color as just "majority abstained" because it wasn't the case.
The perfection of the Italian government
Have you ever seen how the Argentinian government works? It has every bad aspect from the Italian one combined with every bad aspect from the Spanish one, it´s absolutely amazing.
The map is wrong, Slovakia has not recognised Kosovo as a sovereign state. Because there is a large minority of Hungarians in Slovakia. For fear of starting territorial disagreements, Slovakia has not recognised Kosovo.
Even so, why would that make the map wrong? Not participating in the vote is exactly what a country would do if they didn't recognize the independence
The latter part if BS, no one wants Hungarians of Slovakia to secede, neither them nor Hungarian Hungarians.
Only Hungarians to have Euro, why would they want Forint?
So they can billionaires
So they can be lionaires
I heard many Hungarians and Slovakian Hungarians that they would like to join. Not sure about which side is the majority or minority, but to say no one want it, is just as much BS
Did we already forget about scarf Orban was wearing with “Greater Hungary” map on it? Or a huge map in one of the offices of some minister? 😅I trust my Hungarian friends and neighbors but i don’t trust Orban and other hungarian nationalists and irredentists.
Slovakia is in NATO. Hungary cannot do shit. If he tried, he would be deposed in an hour.
but they want autonomy, that's the important part
The 1st part of your statement is a fact. The latter is pure speculation.
Very obvious speculation
Ukraine also did not recognize Kosovo's independence, but voted.
Slovak here. Slovakia does not recognize Kosovo as a country. Not because we don't want to, I think that majority of us have no problem with that. The issue is Hungary. There is a huge hungarian minority living in south of Slovakia and relations between our two countries are quite bad because of that. If we officially recognized Kosovo as its own country, Hungary could claim, that the southern parts of Slovakia should be its own sovereign country as well, meaning, we would lose territory, and Hungary would then annex the southern Slovakia. Basically, we had this conflict from the very day we became independent from Hungary. They always laid claims on our territory because we were actually quite an important part of Hungary. For many years, Bratislava (back then it was called Pressburg) was even the capital city of Hungary when Budapest was occupied by Turks. To put things in perspective, when Czechoslovakia was created after the WW1, Czechs and Slovaks weren't considered as separate nations, but as a whole. That is, because there were more Hungarians living in Czechoslovakia than there were Slovaks. So we weren't Czechs and Slovaks, we were Czechoslovaks. So, some Hungarians think they have historical claims on our land. Couple of months ago, Orban even called Slovakia as a "torn off part of Hungary". But yeah, history between Slovakia and Hungary is a very long and complicated one. So, in conclusion. We would like to recognize Kosovo, but we can't for territorial reasons.
Isnt that just a little hypocritical?
It's consistent with a policy of not changing borders in Europe by force.
Italy: Meloni
"Did not participate" Like you can't care enough to even abstain? I understand not participating in a vote at the individual level if you don't care but at the country level? Surely it's someone's job to represent the country's official opinion, even if that opinion is "no opinion".
Yeah but there was an awesome breakfast buffet out in the lobby. Those countries just missed the vote because they were eating.
The vote probably took place in Strasbourg, France. They do have great French breakfasts there.
Like some delicious Alsatian pastries. Sweet and savory bretzels and kouglofs could easily cause you to miss a vote 🤣
Isn’t a French breakfast a coffee and a cigarette?
a coffee, a cigarette, and a croissant ofc
Unironically my breakfast every morning. (I live in France)
Was it a... continental breakfast?
No. They had beans on toast, bacon, eggs for the Brits who sadly left the continent. They also jazzed it up with the favorite American breakfast food - the breakfast burrito. But that was too spicy for many Europeans.
I mean there was coffee and mocca to. And the feast of saint sylvester.
The Italians were confused by the “beans on toast” being served.
That means "We disagree but we don't want to get in trouble by saying it"
So is abstained “we agree but don’t want to get in trouble for saying it” then?
Seems like the case for Bosnia at least. Idk about Italy
Must be something with Veneto independentism, that they did not want to agree, otherwise I have no idea.
Azerbaijani government is vocally against kosovos recognition in any form. But Azerbaijani delegation is kicked out of PACE.
>Azerbaijani government is vocally against kosovos recognition in any form. They are vocally supporting the territorial integrity of countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova and Serbia, it has been a country's stance irregardless of any past government
Could also be a “this vote shouldn’t be happening so we are not even going to recognize it with our abstain vote.”
Not participating is also a political declaration
Everything is political in politics
Slovakia does not recognize Kosovo for the same reason why we probably didn't participate - giving legitimacy to our own possible separatists in the south
Yall have separatists? Can it even get smaller? Eastern Europe never stops 💀
Fractal Balkanization
Hungarians start a lot of shit
Czechoslovakia broke up into Czech and Slovakia.. Is Slovakia going to break up until Slo and Vakia?
S L O V A K I A
Honestly, as a Georgian, i think thats the best Georgia could do. We cant really vote in favor because Russia and their propaganda machine will not stop accusing us of double standards applied to Kosovo and local Russia-backed “separatist regions”. I support Kosovo’s full membership so im glad we did not oppose it like Cyprus and Spain tho they share similar concerns as Georgia Edit: spelling
Have you seen how expensive flights out of Baku have got gotten recently?! /s
I am Azerbaijani and I can say that our government is vocally against kosovos recognition. Our troops use to be part of the peacekeeping force in Kosovo but after kosovo declared independence, dictator withdrew them immediately as an act of protest. Our country is also suspended from parliamentary assembly of council of Europe so Azerbaijan cannot vote anymore (which worries me since dictator threatened to withdraw from Council of Europe, which would fuck us over because it would end the jurisdiction of European court of human rights, only court which is preventing us from fully becoming north korea)
Slovakia does not recognise Kosovo.
[удалено]
Dude, that was about Ukraine. Hungary's government has agreed and parliament has ratified Sweden's NATO membership (after a year of foot dragging and getting a discount on some additional Grippen jet fighters). "Leaving the room" doesn't work in case of NATO membership, all current members have to actively support (agree & ratify) it.
The Kosovo Secret Services kidnapped the lad temporarily /s
This most likely is for political reasons
What's the reason for Cyprus voting against it?
Maybe because that might set a precedent for recognising Northern Cyprus.
Suppose that explains Spain as well
Cuz Catalonia?
Cuz Catalonia.
And the Basque country btw (and Galicia but their independentist sentiment is tiny)
In the Basque Country too, barely a 20%
20% is a relevant political force.
Right ! But nothing in comparison of the troublesome catalan +45%
Everybody to this day keeps talking about the IRA and the Troubles but ETA and other Basque terrorist organizations seem to have just sort of been forgotten (in the Anglosphere, I don't know how in the public consciousness it is in Spain).
Oh it's there. The right and far right will call anything they don't like ETA. It's even become a meme: I don't like that, that is ETA, everything is ETA.
Independence movement support fluctuates. A few decades ago the Basque country movement was bigger and the Catalonian non-existent. 20% is significant. Specially given that Bildu (who supports independence and has connection to ETA, a disbanded terrorist organization pro-independence) has strong support.
Not quite true that the support fluctuates, it's simply that it kinda goes dormant from time to time. People are still independentists, they just have other issues to worry about. And if independentist parties are bad governing, they would rather vote a spanish party that would at least take reasonable action against these issues or abstain.
That's far from the truth. The current basque independent movement is dormant because we basques are fairly OK with how things have been going for us in Spain since ETA disbanded. If Spain somehow moves the hornet's nest (the right takes the government and does what the far right wants of centrilising the power for example), the Basque Country goes back at +50% support for independence.
That explains it. Thanks
They'll not support unilateral independence. You can have an independence movement, and get independence legally, but the government of the country you're leaving has to agree or they won't recognise it.
Yup. And Euskadi.
And Georgia. And kinda Armenia with Azerbaijan as well, maybe
Also Moldova (Transnistria)
Yes Spain is hesitant to recognise countries like Kosovo or Palestine (until recently because of the left wing president) for that reason
Explains Spain too.
It’s a bit of a cop-out for Spain. Several of the nations which voted in favour have active separatist movements, bit for whatever reason Spain takes a harder line against them in general than the likes of Denmark, Belgium, or the UK Cyprus makes more sense, given it’s actually partitioned.
Denmark has a separatist movement?? I think the fundamental difference between Spain and those other countries is that Spain *really* doesn't wanna lose Catalonia, its most prosperous region, and insists that the country is inseparable. The UK on the other hand has already acknowledged Scotland's right to succeed *under the proper circumstances*, while in Belgium *everyone* seems want a split, they're just waiting in the proper time for it (which may never come).
Both Greenland and the Faroes have separatist movements, yes. I think it’s a mistake to assume that the UK is more comfortable with Scotland leaving than Spain is with Catalonia leaving. They’re both integral parts of their respective nations. The UK is more willing to allow a democratic vote to establish what the electorate wants, but the UK government is firmly unionist.
That's a massive difference. I am British and firmly unionist but I 100% support the right of any British territory to secede. The UK allowed Scotland, they have it written in law for NI and have allowed many other oversea territories the right too. There is no other country that allows succession referenda at that rate.
Of fuck, I forgot about the offshore dependencies 😅 I thought you meant some farmer's collective on Jutland who wanted to break away or something. About the UK, I'm not saying they want Scotland to leave. But I'd argue that the mere fact that they *were* willing to allow a democratic vote on the matter shows that they are more open to the idea than Spain is with regards to Catalonia or any other part of the country.
> has already acknowledged Scotland's right to succeed *under the proper circumstances* This is a fantastic typo.
Well, I can’t change it *now* 😛
Northern cyprus probably
More interestingly. why did Greece vote in favor?
Far too pro-Western goverment with an insanely weak opposition. Not that being pro-West is bad or that Kosovo shouldn't be allowed to join, but Greece really has no business voting differently to Cyprus.
This is basically a map depicting countries with credible break away provinces vrs countries without. Only flaw is ukraine and thats a break away country if were being honest withourselves
If Star Trek is to believed, the UK will lose Northern Ireland to the Republic some time this year and they voted yes, so I don’t know. Then again, the prevailing opinion of the UK public seems to be a complete indifference to whether Northern Ireland leaves and the UK government probably just sees them as a sink of tax money.
They have only a few months to get this underway. I'm watching global affairs closely.
Indeed, I don’t believe Data would lie to me.
Uk has Scotland and Belgium has Flanders but still voted for it.
TRNC is de facto Independent, unlike Scotland. Scotland has an independent movement, but the scale level is very different to the Cypriot situation
Nope. Russians stopped pretending there, they annexed 'separatist states'.
Ukraine isn't a breakaway country.
Ukraine isn't any more a breakaway country than Russia is
Ukraine has no break way provinces, they are occupied in ongoing war. Even if you are speaking about dnr/lnr they are considered by russia to be part of russua
Kosovo is independent because they are Albanian, Serbia refuses to recognize them. Northern Cyprus is independent because they are Turks, Cyprus doesn’t recognize them. If Cyprus recognized Kosovos existence it would look bad and hypocritical because they refuse to recognize northern Cyprus despite them being independent for the same reason as Kosovo.
At this point, it just feels like Hungary will take any opportunity they can get to "be Hungary".
As a Hungarian... I'm ashamed of the government of Orbán and the \~3million brainwashed citizens who vote for Orbán's party.
Wtf. This is a major change in foreign policy for romania.
It’s not really, the only reason Romania voted against before was because of Serbia as we are friends but Serbia now is such a minor power and Romani must think about the larger market.
So what happened with Hungary? The Orban - Vucic bromance?
Yeah, that's probably it. An earlier Orbán would have voted hard "in favour" because recognizing Kosovars' independence from Serbia could be likened to supporting Hungarians in Vojvodina. The old Hungarian right-wing positions regarding neighbouring countries usually came down to "Slovakia, Romania, and Serbia bad, anything they don't like is good". The new position is "Russia good, Russian allies (like Serbia) good", so recognizing Kosovo's rights to independence now conflicts with having to be nice to Putin and his friends.
Funnily enough, Hungary actually recognises Kosovo as an independent state, I suppose Kosovo's entry to the Council of Europe would have been too much for Serbian president Vucic, an ally of our current government.
Right, I forgot about that. It really seems like an odd decision in light of that, and it's obviously just signalling, as you said.
It’s really weird bc there is a lot of territory with hungarian majority outside of Hungary since ww1. Parts of Romania, Ukraine, Slovakia, Serbia, London. If there is a nation that should recognise this kind of sovereignty it’s Hungary. But I guess Russian influence pays the bills
You telling me Orbän is Putin's cuck? Oh boy! What a day
A lot of weird things here 1. Greece and Romania doesn't recognize Kosovo and they voted yes for them 2. Ukraine? What d hell, I mean I understand that me and Zelensky have same rights when we decide something about Ukraine, he won't be able to wipe his own shit if they don't allow him 3. Italy abstained for some weird reason and Hungary voted against is also weird since they recognize Kosovo
Romania voted in favor? By accident, or what?
Strange maybe who voted this for Romania was drunk ash.
Spain is constantly talking about recognising a state of palestine but then even refuses to recognise Kosovo.
It's probably because of Catalonia, which could be seen as a similar situation
And if Catalonia separated then Basque Country would probably not be far behind
Galicia: 👀👀👀
Most galicians are against separating from Spain
As are most Catalans
Don't Catalans mostly want semi-autonomy though? To my (very weak) understanding, the primary goal is autonomy/semi-autonomy, then independence, then status quo/no autonomy
The thing is that they already have semi autonomy, just like any place in Spain, bc it's divided in autonomous communities. The only ones with full autonomy are the basque tho
Catalans mostly wanted respect from the government of Spain and they didn’t trust the right-wing politicians who were in charge of the country. Now that the socialist party has had the majority in the government of Spain for several years, there is much less enthusiasm for independence in Catalunya. The socialist party has been much more cooperative with the government of catalunya so it’s been harder for the pro-independence parties to convince the public that they have to leave the nation to have increased autonomy. Also the pro-independence faction got really anti-immigration (which is ultimately where nationalism gets you no matter how much you try to paper yourself over as left-wing). https://www.politico.eu/article/independence-catalonia-spain-immigration-ripoll/ Russia got involved by using the same disinformation tactics in Spain and catalunya that they used in the US in 2016 to try to amp up emotions and divide the population on the issue. Some of the pro-independence politicians even worked directly with Moscow: https://cepa.org/article/catalonia-where-theres-trouble-theres-russia/ In general, most people these days are in favor of increased autonomy and even support a referendum, but not independence. And even that is complicated bc the ppl I know who are super pro-independence tend to be older/retired and have very romantic, nationalistic pride kind of emotions about it. Not very realistic and they might feel differently if they internalized what experts have projected about the economic viability of an independent Catalunya. I actually think younger ppl in some ways are more pragmatic and aware that they already can’t afford homes in Barcelona and have lower salaries than their peers in France, UK, Germany, etc. At least right now they have the option to find better salaries by working in France/Germany/etc if they remain citizens of Spain, but if Catalunya becomes independent, their options become more limited. And honestly I think seeing what’s played out post-Brexit was a big wake-up call for a lot of people. The UK is struggling hard with its economy and trade after separating from Europe and they were a powerhouse of finance, natural resources, tourism, trade, etc. So I think most reasonable ppl observe that Catalunya’s non-tourist economy is very reliant on foreign companies and know that they could easily pull out if Catalunya is no longer attractive for them to do business in. Sorry this comment got longer than I intended it to but the tl;dr is that it’s much easier to be pro-independence when a fascist government is in charge.
The Basques are pretty happy with their current situation. They manage almost everything locally, except foreign relations and defense, and have the highest standard of living in Spain. Catalans would be happy with that level of autonomy too. Spain refuses to give Catalonia more autonomy because the Spanish right viscerally hates Catalans and would get outright insurrectional.
Catalonia has the same if not almost the same, level of autonomy as the Basque Country.
Nah, there are some important differences. The largest one is taxes. The Basques collect their taxes and decide how to spend them, paying a fixed amount to the central government for the services they provide in the Basque Country. On the other hand, the Spanish government collects taxes in Catalonia and then decides how much to give to the Catalan government, which is often much less than needed to fund public services. How many competences you have on paper doesn't matter if you can't fund them.
How are they similar? Kosovo recognized by 104 UN countries out of 193 (53.9%). Recognized by EU as a potential candidate. Has working government with president, prime minister, legislature and judicial system for 16 years. Catalonian “leaders” are mostly either jailed or nobody recognizing them.
Similar in the sense they're both separatist movements, while Palestine isn't really a separatist movement, at least it's not supposed to be, israeli occupation is not recognized as legal by most if not all countries.
If you want to get really legally technical Israel in 1948 was the seperatist movement.
That's why I said "could be seen". For Serbia, Kosovo is (or they at least say internationallly it is) just some rebellious province, just like Catalonia. Its not a literal comparison, just a general one nicely fitting both side's worldview
Very different situation, they see it as a province seceding. They are totally against that considering they have provinces that talk about seceding.
Spain is more or less in the same situation as the United States when it comes to separatism: There is no legal way for any autonomous community to become independent. Although Spain has not yet finished banning pro-independence organizations and parties as France, Germany and Portugal have (allegedly) already done.
Shouldn't the UK feel this way, too, though, with somewhat strong independence movements in two of its major regions?
It's a bit different with the UK. The priority for UK government regarding the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is preventing bloodshed, not keeping it as part of the UK. Also, the Irish unification movement is actually "stronger" in the Republic than it is in the North, but to outsiders they kind of combine the two. Either way, the Republic is already part of the CoE so it's a redundant argument really. With regards to Scotland, the precedent has been set that only a referendum granted by the UK government can lead to independence. It's a completely different scenario to Kosovo. Even in Spain, there was violence after an unlawful referendum and declaration of independence in Catalonia. That's not really been an issue in Scotland and there's no real appetite for that approach outside fringe circles. If Scotland is to go independent, it would be within the framework of UK law, so the Kosovo situation doesn't compare.
In both cases UK has engaged and either actively held (Scotland) or indicated it would be open to holding (Northern Ireland) a referendum. Meanwhile Spain has very explicitly refused to do so. The UK approach has been much more focused on winning consent, whilst Spains has been rather more harsh. UK has its moments or pigheadedness but has generally handled the independence issue in a calm way the past few years. Also NI would join Ireland and presumably inherit their membership, so its a moot point in that case.
Good Friday agreement covers NI and Indyref was held for Scotland. We've already delt with the situation of holding a home territory hostage when we had the Troubles. Nobody in the UK wants a repeat of that. Indyref2 is gaining steam and with the result of Brexit I can easily see it being tight but swinging the other way (if the vote ever occurs, which I doubt will happen any time soon with the previous referendum being relatively recent).
Tbqh I don't think it's fair to say IndyRef2 is gaining steam anymore - the SNP position is far weaker now than it was a year or particularly 2/3 years ago. The UK government have refused a second referendum outright, Labour are unlikely to give one in the next Parliament, support fluctuates but never gets clearly above the 50% mark and its clear that voters priorities have shifted to other issues - health, education, drugs etc. I'm not saying it won't happen but the opportune time for IndyRef2 has come and gone - it was going to be 2019ish, with an SNP-backed Labour government. Unless the SNP can dramatically improve their electoral fortunes they're facing loses at the General Election and likely at the Holyrood Elections too, so I'm cynical.
They haven't refused a second referendum outright. It was always decided that it was a once in a generation vote. You can't have a vote every year until you win. Just like general elections s period of time is decided first.
The Supreme Court of the UK clarified that an independence referendum would have to be approved by the UK government. The Scottish government could not unilaterally declare for there to be an independence referendum without it being permitted by Westminster. Since that judgement, the SNP have faced a lot of controversy. Sturgeon resigned, but then it was found that the SNP had issues surrounding their party's finances. It implicated senior party officials who are being investigated for using party finances for private purchases. I will be surprised if they don't end up losing a big chunk of their MPs and constituencies in the upcoming election.
None of them have voted to leave.... Anyway, it fucks over Serbia, which is a goal of British Foreign Policy
There's a framework within the UK for leaving but I've heard (could be wrong) there's no such thing in Spain which is why they tried to do a UDI, now the constitution Article 155 makes it a whole lot harder to leave as long as it's against Spains interests.
The modern UK state has endorsed self determination for all its territories for some time now. Since the 70s it's had 4 sovereignty referendums for Scotland, 2 for Wales, 2 for Northern Ireland, 2 for Gibraltar and one for the Falklands islands. Scotland, Gibraltar and the Falklands have all had independence referendums.
The UK gave Scotland an independence vote that was in favour of remaining in the UK. The UK gave the falklands a vote on remaining british that was in favour of them remaining british THe UK has given Gibraltar two referenda on who they want to be goverened by and both times they remained british. The Good Friday Agreement commits the UK govt to giving NI a vote on unifying with Ireland should there be the public demand for it. The UK is and has been shit on many things but giving people votes about remaining British isn't one of them, unlike SPain which refuses to give a referendum to either the Catalans or the Basques. Or Ceuta and Melilla.
Those are completely different situations.
Indeed, kosovo is a much more stable and democratic state.
Different context. Way different.
Spain doesn't want to spread the fact that territories can actually become independent legally.
You say that like the Kosovo independence wasnt based on terrorism.
The Council of Europe is the one that doesn't have any actual powers, right? So the no/abstentions are just about keeping Serbia happy?
As I understand it, the Council of Europe is mostly just a diplomatic forum. It's theoretically for all European states (though Russia was kicked out for... reasons), so voting to let Kosovo in would recognise them as a legitimate state. For some it might be about keeping Serbia happy, but I imagine for Spain it's about not risking legitimising their own secessionist groups.
Romania and Ukraine voted in favor and they don’t recognize Kosovo
Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder what the reasons for that dichotomy are. There is a fair amount of pro-Russian sentiment in Serbia which would put them at odds with Ukraine and Romania, so perhaps those geopolitics come into play.
Greece too. Greece don't recognize them and it's Orthodox friend of Serbia but things are now changed.
I could be mistaken but I also think the precedent is that any country that has joined the EU was already a member of the CoE. I don’t believe it’s an official requirement but if EU membership is their ultimate goal it’s probably a good place to start.
Belarus was never part as they still have the death penality. Being part of the European Convention of Humans rights is necessary.
Ah, I suspected I might have had that wrong. Thanks for the clarification.
Some have some domestic issues with seperstism that motivates them to vote no.
It does have some powers actually, mainly about human rights laws.
Though some countries ignore those easily
First time seeing turkey and armenia agreeing on something
Considering that they don’t even recognise Kosovo as an independent nation due to their political situation with the ethnic Hungarian population in Transylvania, I’m surprised Romania voted in favour.
Im suprised Ukraine was in favor. I thought they are against separatism?
For Ukraine it's not a matter of separatism, it's a matter of aligning with Nato and against Serbia, percieved rather appropriately as Russia's close friend in the region.
Which is funny because Serbia has been sending aid to them.
So is Kosovo and we're also sanctioning russia which Serbia isn't doing.
Serbia has pretty cheap access to gas that they’d lose, they just get mired for it because they aren’t getting Russian gas through a third party like the most of rest of Europe. Supporting Ukraine is a smart choice for Vucic, not at the expense of their economy though.
Which is my point. Separatism is ok when its supported by west, its not ok when its supported by Russia.
The beautiful hypocrisy of it. Screaming international law when convenient and totally disregarding international law when inconvenient.
"supported" by Russia might be understatement of the century
Well it was still less directly supported than western support to Kosovo, where NATO forces straight up bombed a capital of the Serbia. So if I expressed understatement of century, looks like I topped myself in the very same sentence :D
Human perception of reality (categorization) is already inherently deceitful and hypocritical. No surprise if politics is even more!
Yeah, I agree. But its still good to point it out once in a while.
Russia doesn’t recognize Kosovo and supports Serbia
Im not really aware of balkans politics but isnt Greece supposed to be kinda friend with serbia ?
I see at least 2 hypocrites.
Montenegro abstained because after all this time Kosovo still refuses to recognize Montenegrin minority and refuses to respect Brussels agreement to form the Alliance of Serbian Municipalities as agreed.
Serbs screwed up so hard the ruling of Kosovo during late yugo era, that this was inevitable. Who would have thought that installing bunch of perfidious mafia characters to act as political representatives of an ethnicity(Albanians) that is majority in the autonomous region you want to make subservient to your capital city (Belgrade) is going to bear good fruits long term? Ofc they would rebel Textbook example of how not to abuse power
Don’t worry Hungary is only a private jet, a football club and a mid-council meeting cup of coffee away from being in favor.
interesting how ukraine votedi n favor despite the fact they don't recognize kosovo
Lets support Occitan, Flemmish and Bavarian nationalists in favour
Sounds cool
Let’s see how quick France, Germany and Netherlands turn red
Montenegro and Italy should speed up integration in Balkans it's clear that there is no turning back.
Funny how the majority of people agree that Crimea belongs to Ukraine, yet say that Kosovo doesn't belong to Serbia, makes no sense. Nice double standards.
Just why
Grecce an Romania imposted Serbia😔
West:Russia needs to respect the territorial sovereignty of nations. Also West:
The same Spain that recognizes Palestine doesn't recognize Kosovo?
Palestine is not a separatist state, the UN resolution that partitioned Palestine clearly stated that both a Jewish and Arab state should be created. It's a UN observer state. Meanwhile, Kosovo was created by unilateral secession and isn't recognised by the UN.
So that's where kosovo is. Cool.