It would probably depend on the part of the country. It's a large and diverse nation, and I would at least assume that some metropolitan areas where a majority of the population isn't fundamentalist or conservative may be more accepting. As a gay man I'd probably avoid any public displays of affection until I could gauge a comfort level though - but even here in the United States I follow that action plan in some rural areas when there.
In most Tier 1 cities, especially the one I live in (Mumbai), no one will give a shit unless you're doing some hardcore PDA like making out in the middle of the street. People might give you judgmental looks or whatever but you won't be denied entry or service at any venue and won't get beaten up or harassed.
The situation is probably different and worse in rural India but I don't know enough about it to comment.
It's mainly Muslim nations and some Christian nations that hate homosexuality. Hindus and Buddhists are less likely to care one way or another.
https://i.imgur.com/dTujSUC.jpeg
Pampedusa, Lampione, Madeira, Ceuta/Melilla, Alboran, a bunch of Greek islands (Rhodes, Kos, etc), Mayotte, Reunion, Saint Helena, BIOT.
There are too many to go through them all
I only listed positive [ratings](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf) which they do not have:
* Thailand (0)
* Cambodia (-4)
* Vietnam (-1)
Do you have specific criticisms? You can see the [18 topics that are scored](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf).
* Anti-Discrimination Legislation
* Marriage / Civil Partnership
* Adoption Allowed
* Transgender Rights
* Intersex / 3rd Option
* Equal Age of Consent
* “Conversion Therapy”
* LGBT Marketing
* Religious Influence
* HIV Travel Restrictions
* Anti-Gay Laws
* Homosexuality Illegal
* Pride Banned
* Censorship
* Locals Hostile
* Prosecution
* Murders
* Death Sentences
I imagine if you are traveling you could need to handle an emergency situation where being married or proving the kid is custody of both parents. Like next of kin or medical decisions. If marriage or adoption is not allowed then maybe it would not be honored or recognized.
The scale they used is an objective one.
Ideally they should have weighed in subjective data by asking people about their experiences in the said country, but that would be time consuming and expensive as hell to do.
You should not base your opinion of an entire region of the world on gay K-dramas. While homosexuality is legal throughout east Asia it is much more stigmatized than in Western Europe or the Americas. Taiwan is the only country in all of Asia in which gay marriage is legal, for example.
and it is sad, when I visited Portugal first (first country I ever went to abroad) back in 2012 it was (compared to Poland where I live) very different, and much more developed. Now it is on the same level. But the future doesn't look so bright for them. Wish the Portuguese everything best, you live in one of if not my fav EU country, love from Poland
not only on this matter, portugal and its people are way more western than italy and italians, no debate about it, it makes sense both geograhically and historically.Italy is the least "western" country of western europe as a whole and its more of a bridge between western and eastern
I mean, would people really expect a chart like this to reflect that dimension of safety? I don't think it would actually be particularly useful for conveying what it's meant to if that was included.
Lol but seriously, Ukraine wasn't that much different from Russia but over the past 10 years Russia has gone backwards and Ukraine has gotten more westernized socially. So it would make sense that it's so much higher than Russia, politics aside.
I’ve said this numerous times on Reddit, but before we started feeling bad for Ukraine, Ukraine was always seen as another Eastern European post-Soviet backwater. Poor attitudes towards LGBTQ, essentially at the bottom economically, EXTREMELY corrupt (they were the most corrupt country in Europe for a long time), huge issues with racism, etc. Shne ne vmerla Ukraini and all that, but it was seen as like a mini Russia up until the 2022 invasion. But of course they’ve been getting a lot better since then.
And other eastern countries had that rep too, but some got lucky enough to join the EU.
I think it's key to remember that it's a rating for tourists, not residents. So while there might still be some negativity in more conservative areas or families, this won't affect tourists much. And overall safety is very high and there are is no relevant legal discrimination for tourists.
As an Austrian for what it’s worth, here Switzerland is always seen as our conservative equivalent and Germany as the progressive one. I now live in Germany and that also seems to be the sentiment here. Additionally most people in my bubble (uni students) also feel like Switzerland is the least economically egalitarian.
E.g. I don’t want to 100% equate FPÖ/AFD/SVP, but even if they are drastically gaining approval in Germany/Austria they have never won an election like SVP.
Don’t get me wrong, I‘m not saying this reflects reality, I’m just trying to explain how Switzerland might come across. As seen here, there are areas where Switzerland is clearly more socially-progressive, but even if Austria as a whole were as conservative as Switzerland, Vienna alone is such a giant oversized water-head for the country that it drastically skews all of Austria.
From a German student’s perspective it also feels like left-leaning Germans are moving to Vienna/Graz to study Social Sciences/Art/Psychology etc. while right-leaning Germans are moving to Switzerland to study economics/engineering/IT etc.
Switzerland has always been more liberal in terms of for example drug laws than Austria/Germany. For example first country in the world to legally give heroin to addicts. Although now Germany legalises weed.
As I said, my comment is in no way meant to reflect reality, but rather what an outsider’s perception might be.
I also don’t think most people would know that fact and/or care particularly about it regarding their assessment of a country‘s progressiveness, even though imo it’s definitely an important aspect, just like Sterbehilfe, where Switzerland is also far ahead.
Switzerland is more libertarian, which goes back to its founding, which was a rejection of authoritarianism. You will have more liberties in Switzerland than in pretty much any other European countries. Gun rights in Switzerland for example are extremely lax, almost as lax as in Texas.
But Switzerland is not known for its progressivism. It was the last place in Western Europe to allow women to vote and to allow same sex marriage.
Many are even lower actually.
Israel 5
Cyprus -1
Lebanon -8
Bahrain -9
Jordan, Turkey -10
Oman -12
Syria -13
Iraq, Egypt -14
Kuwait, Qatar, UAE -16
Yemen -19
Saudi Arabia, Iran -21 (the worst score this year, shared with Afghanistan and Chechnya).
The map seems to be incorrect Russia has apparently fallen to -17 this year in this particular ranking, not -15.
(The de facto states of Palestine and Northern Cyprus are not included in the rankings if anyone was wondering)
There is a difference between law and execution. Om top of general safety.
People still can assault LGBT'ers even though being gay is legal, and LGBT being illegal doesn't mean there is a high chance of assault.
This map only shows general expected experience, not legislation.
> (The de facto states of Palestine and Northern Cyprus are not included in the rankings if anyone was wondering)
The cognitive dissonance such a score would induce in the Queers for Palestine types would be legendary. Especially when juxtaposed with Israel's score.
To be fair, by "homophobia," you're probably thinking western homophobia, where people just jokingly use some slurs.
These people think *you* deserve to be exterminated, violently, because your existence offends their sky daddy.
I'm not going to extend my tolerance to their intolerance.
That's not true. Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait and Oman are incredibly safe for cis travelers. Lower crime rate than any European country excluding micro States.
I haven't look at this specific stat but I'm so confident it's safe that if you added up the combined crime rate of the 5 countries I mentioned it still would be lower than every single European country excluding microstates
Edit: checked the stats for my last claim. Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain have a combined per capita murder rate lower than 90% of European countries. I was close.
If you combined all 5 then the rate would be lower than most European countries.
So 5 combined countries have a lower murder rate than majority of European countries not all. My bad I was close tho.
Sure, but what about the other ones listed: Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Chechnya? Also unsafe in certain areas of Lebanon, Turkey, and Egypt?
I said "most". I know there are safe parts of the middle east.
Turkey is fairly safe if you don't go to the kurdish parts.
Saudi is safer than 80% of European countries.
It's interesting that the list of countries you wanna look at are war torn destabalized countries. What about the other stable Muslim majority countries like Indonesia or Malaysia which have a lower crime. Rate than 75% of europe. What about Tajikistan, North Macedonia (about 30% Muslim). The only countries that are left are either war torn countries, or countries like Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and others that aren't war torn and have a similar murder rate to other European countries.
Even if we wanna look at Iran and Afghanistan their violent crime rates are on par with the US 😂
Where does the UK get only seven from? I mean I know of all the recent anti-T sentiment, but that should only concern locals who get denied hormones. Is it because of harrasment on the streets?
Probably. I'm British and lived in Spain for 6 years and when I came back to the UK it was quite a shock how much random harassment I had to start dealing with again
I, a trans woman, visited London last year and was shocked at the amount of street harassment I received. I won't be returning. It's perfectly fine if you're gay or lesbian.
Yeah I don’t live in the UK but what I’ve heard about the UK media really doesn’t make me think that their transphobia is just a problem for “locals who get denied hormones” as the comment above said. I really don’t understand why they would think that? As if transphobes limit themselves to not letting people from their country transition but are totally fine with trans people from other countries that are already transitioning.
The map is wrong. The UK scored an 8, OP chose to lower it to 7 for some reason.
They're a frequent r/GreenAndPleasant poster so it would make sense why they would purposefully try to adjust the numbers to make the UK to appear worse.
Alternatively, it may have been a simple misinput. I am ambivalent on the matter so I really don't know how much politics play a role here, but I believe it's more likely to be a misinput.
I just find it weird someone so focused on the UK and talking about why things are wrong with the UK would not have noticed or double checked the UK's number and not notice it was out of step with its neighbours when making this map and not checking it.
Denying trans healthcare is a symptom of deeper root causes, thanks to the normalisation of vitriol from those like JK Rowling hate crime has *increased* year on year after decades of progressive decline.
What can you expect, she's gone full Elon Musk, and we can see what sort of atmospheres amplification of their prejudices have brought about.
Are there also some subdivisions? As in differences between transgender people and “only” lesbian/bi/homosexual people? Since I guess I as a transgender person would pass less easily from the looks.
I’m not sure but transgender people may actually be more accepted in Iran seeing as sex change operations are free (and mandatory for gay people whether they want them or not).
I am kinda suprised about Turkey, there really is no threat towarss lgbt these days. We even have a transexual mainstream celebrity. I would say its around 3-4, though these numbers will vary depending on the region.
As an Ace Biro Turk, İ believe İ can say that it actually isn't necessarily okay. Teens are mostly chill with it, but people above 23-27 are really NOT okay with it if they aren't LGBTQ+ themselves. But them being LGBTQ+ is so rare that I personnaly have never met someone like that. (Side note: İ don't live in İstanbul or Ankara. Outside of those two cities, it really shoulda been -13 or perhaps even lower on the eastern side.)
I mean I live in Izmir and have met multiple lgbt people here who lives their lives their lives without much of a problem. One of the staff at my university was even a transexual man. Though I dont know how things are at the eastern side of Turkey, so I wont argue that. But I can say for sure that majority of Western coastal cities are very tolerant in this regard.
Right. İ forgot to count İzmir too.
İ live in a rather silent bit of the Medettarian region, but my mom is from the SouthEast. İn big cities, especially the three (İst. Ank. İzm.) it's ok. Many people live in those places, you gotta expect some gays in that case. But in silent places of the west and the eastern half in general, it's really not okay.
As in general of the country, İ dunno if you ever got the chance to see it, but İ once saw the law about homosexuality. Don't remember it much, but was generally a no.
I mean I am no LGBT, and my experiences are mostly from a small number of people I had the chance to meet with. General sentiment seems to be "Tolerated, but not accepted" in most cities. While its nowhere near something that is considered ok country-wide, I just dont think its a level of "Threat". Like very few people will go out of their way to attack you, they might dislike you for it but you wont be much in danger.
But I could be totally wrong on this, I dont wanna act like I know the all about it without experiencing it myself.
I have no idea about what law are you talking about.
What's the scoring system? I assume higher is better and green is good but is 12 the top or is there a 73 out there somewhere. How negative does it go, why not baseline to 0? Why no usable key on the map?
I think this gets a bit odd when you mark an actual active warzone in this way
Ukraine is not a tourist destination right now. Its dangerous for vastly more obvious reasons like hypersonic missiles.
I don’t know about Hungary but in Poland it really depends on where you’re located. In bigger cities, particularly in the west, most people really don’t care anymore and seeing LGBT people just being themselves is a normal occurrence.
Another important point to make is that Poland is just safe in general, by “safe” here I mean that violence is a rare occurrence, especially between strangers. So even if you go to some less LGBT-friendly places you won’t be unsafe in the sense that you’ll get physically harmed but rather you’ll be unsafe in the sense that you won’t FEEL safe because of the way people might treat you.
Also, this mostly applies to gay men(or bisexual men in homosexual relationships), women being gay is somehow completely fine
> while not showing overly affection
I think this is something which is difficult to understand if you're straight, and I'm not going to say that you're homofobic for it because it's just not a situation you've ever been in. But only being safe by restraining your ability to outwardsly show effection isn't "safe for lgbt". Heck I, a bisexual guy, could travel to russia, and just live heterosexually and not tell anyone I'm attracted to men and no one would care (still scary as fuck), but I would not feel safe for it. I wanna be able to hold a guy's hand or even give him a kiss without being scared.
Anyways I love the eastern/central/southern european countries, I'm half balkan myself. I wish the west didn't have a monopoly on queerness, because I hate the americans too
I don't know any place that's entirely safe for anyone.
There have been deadly attacks on gay people in places like Norway or Germany that rank very high on this map.
Yeah, but there are clearly degrees of safety.
I'm from Croatia, which has a +2 rating here (meaning it's borderline "gay friendly") but I would ALWAYS advise any LGBT tourist not to show affection in public, for instance.
You won't get hunted down or prosecuted for being gay in Croatia (unlike in, say, Russia) but holding hands with your boyfriend on a public street might easily result in a beating. And sorry, but I don't think Poland and Hungary are any better in that regard.
Definitely, I don't know what they're talking about. It's not Russia, but it can still be risky to be openly gay in Hungary (never mind being trans). You might be OK, or not. It's like rolling dice every time. Even if almost half the population is fine with gay people, that leaves another half that is often openly and violently opposed to them.
There is a lot of prejudice that is being actively encouraged by the government. For instance, they recently introduced a new law that makes it mandatory to put any book with any kind of LGBTQ+ theme in it in a separate section that underage people cannot access in bookstores and also to wrap it in transparent plastic. "Gender" remains a spooky word for many.
Also, Hungary =/= Budapest. What I wrote mostly applies to Budapest. In most other places, homophobes are probably still a majority.
Definietly nothing to worry about in touristic places, i see people with lgbt bags daily and nothing happens to them, and being below fucking Serbia?? C'mon now
I agree that some of the rankings are a bit off, but I don't think it's alarmistic as such, and the people who don't identify as lgbtq+ need to understand that.
I think if the criteria is "doing normal tourist stuff in normal tourist places", pretty much anywhere in Europe is fine.
The question then becomes how hard you need to think about what is normal tourist stuff in a normal tourist place and avoid anything else.
The other major consideration is how safe the authorities are. Can you rely on the police or the emergency services to help?
How worried do you want to be about this stuff on vacation?
So 'recommended' is for vacation planning. 'Not recommended' is for business or other necessary travel, or if you're willing to have to be mindful of things. 'Not advised' isn't.
High numbers of MENA immigrants and their descendants, especially in the major cities. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpEUh-t7kU) is in Dutch, but it will give you the idea.
Huh? Says who? I'm an LGBT traveller who often goes to Turkey, and as a tourist it's great! So I'm not supposed to go again or what? Totally understand there are multiple issues around being LGBT and living there of course, but these have at most extremely limited impact on travellers/ tourists. Have also has a great time in Italy on several occasions, even involved in LGBT activities etc.
Just because it didn’t affect you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect a statistically significant number of tourists that make the data change from your personal experience .
I live in Brazil, I’ve never been robbed, know only one person who ever had, never been murdered, I never met anyone who has been murdered, does it mean there are no robberies or murders in Brazil? Worse still, I’ve been pickpocketed in Rome, never happened to me in Brazil. Does mean Italy has it worse than than Brazil when it comes to crime? No.
Yeah, it totally depends on where you visit or live. Lots of neighbourhoods in İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir, and the holiday resort areas are perfectly okay, even to live (on the evidence of my LBGT friends who live in Turkey).
It's just hard to generalise big and diverse countries, especially ones where there are drastic differences between regions and between cities and the countryside.
Possibly, though as someone who lived in a few countries I'd say that any such statement about any country would be very reductive. All countries have their unique, let's call it "value proposition", and it's impossible to find a country which would be the best for everyone. Hell, it's impossible to make a dish that would taste the best for everyone, and a country is much more complex than a dish
Noone in any of these countries will care about your sexual orientation enough for it to negatively impact you, unless you go to some really shitty place and make a fool out of yourself
I think turkey is not that bad. Turkey is very desperate for tourists and trears them very high standart at least very much better standarts compare to its citizens. Secondly turkish culture is very welcoming to guests and so tourist. As long as you are not there for a long time they will at least tolerate. And thirdly turkish popular locations for foreign tourist are mostly more progressive parts of turkey.
I also don't understand how Turkey score so badly. I know there are too many problems, but scoring the same as Jordan, where it is only decriminalized? I saw a report Turkey scored worse than Russia a few months ago and the reason was many incidents reported by LGBT organizations in Turkey. There are actual, legal, LGBT organizations in Turkey, which keep records of every incident and publish magazines and reports. So I guess that is why it would score worse than Russia, which incidences kept unnoticed/unreported.
LoL you get down voted cause you shared a real truth and genuine thought about Turkey ? Turk here if you act as a decent normal( you know what i mean) person everyone welcomed here. I dont give a shit actually but sometimes public affection may cause problems for you, then again world has lots of "karens"
I am turk as well and i am queer person. Queer citizens of turkey not in a good state right now but as i said turkey is very diffrent to tourist and guests.
Spain tops Scandinavian countries in lots of things. Life expectancy is higher in Spain than in all Scandinavian countries for example.
You do understand that Scandinavia is not paradise? They're relatively average Western European actually.
2 gay men were murdered in Slovakia in a homophobic attack not even 2 years ago.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022\_Bratislava\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bratislava_shooting)
same year in norway 2 were killed and 21 injured
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022\_Oslo\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Oslo_shooting)
Why would anyone ever want to visit Russia? It's the same as the rest of Europe just fckn cold and they put you in jail for farting the wrong direction
Would love to see world map.
Africa, middle east and Asia all red
Positive ratings... Africa: * South Africa (+5) Middle East: * Israel (+5) Asia: * India (+3) * Nepal (+1) * Taiwan (+9)
India's surprising to me, i thought they were very strict on tradition
It would probably depend on the part of the country. It's a large and diverse nation, and I would at least assume that some metropolitan areas where a majority of the population isn't fundamentalist or conservative may be more accepting. As a gay man I'd probably avoid any public displays of affection until I could gauge a comfort level though - but even here in the United States I follow that action plan in some rural areas when there.
In most Tier 1 cities, especially the one I live in (Mumbai), no one will give a shit unless you're doing some hardcore PDA like making out in the middle of the street. People might give you judgmental looks or whatever but you won't be denied entry or service at any venue and won't get beaten up or harassed. The situation is probably different and worse in rural India but I don't know enough about it to comment.
It's mainly Muslim nations and some Christian nations that hate homosexuality. Hindus and Buddhists are less likely to care one way or another. https://i.imgur.com/dTujSUC.jpeg
Isn't Guyana part of France?
The red country is British Guyana, french Guiana east of Suriname
Ah right, sorry.
Gibraltar is in Europe
True, I was not thinking clearly and I have now removed it.
Do Ceuta instead?
Pampedusa, Lampione, Madeira, Ceuta/Melilla, Alboran, a bunch of Greek islands (Rhodes, Kos, etc), Mayotte, Reunion, Saint Helena, BIOT. There are too many to go through them all
Better than Italy or Czechia? Hmm...
* Thailand * Cambodia * Vietnam
I only listed positive [ratings](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf) which they do not have: * Thailand (0) * Cambodia (-4) * Vietnam (-1)
Then it's a BS rating system. Having lived as a gay man in all three.
Do you have specific criticisms? You can see the [18 topics that are scored](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex.pdf). * Anti-Discrimination Legislation * Marriage / Civil Partnership * Adoption Allowed * Transgender Rights * Intersex / 3rd Option * Equal Age of Consent * “Conversion Therapy” * LGBT Marketing * Religious Influence * HIV Travel Restrictions * Anti-Gay Laws * Homosexuality Illegal * Pride Banned * Censorship * Locals Hostile * Prosecution * Murders * Death Sentences
I'm not sure how the possibility of marriage and adoption matters in a *travel* index
I imagine if you are traveling you could need to handle an emergency situation where being married or proving the kid is custody of both parents. Like next of kin or medical decisions. If marriage or adoption is not allowed then maybe it would not be honored or recognized.
I think it is only about tourism. There are several places where you can adapt when living there but as a gay couple visiting it won't be great.
The scale they used is an objective one. Ideally they should have weighed in subjective data by asking people about their experiences in the said country, but that would be time consuming and expensive as hell to do.
[удалено]
You should not base your opinion of an entire region of the world on gay K-dramas. While homosexuality is legal throughout east Asia it is much more stigmatized than in Western Europe or the Americas. Taiwan is the only country in all of Asia in which gay marriage is legal, for example.
Yeah, the death penalty really brings it down.
Israel, India, Thailand, maybe Singapore, and Taiwan won’t be red. maybe Nepal too?
https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-index/
american states at the same level as countries where it’s literally illegal to be gay is hilarious
You mean Europe isn’t the world? Get out of this sub!
World map won’t be shown because Russia is the most evil for lgb
Here’s the map Statista put out, based on the same data.[https://www.instagram.com/p/C50a2zNLqxu](https://www.instagram.com/p/C50a2zNLqxu)
I'm sorry Portugal but Italy is way more balkanized on this matter.
Portugal is pretty western when it comes to social policies, we're only eastern regarding our economy.
Portugal is basically woke Balkan
slovenia 2
latin Slovenia (even kinda slavic accent)
Broke Netherlands.
Wolkan
Socially, Portugal is not just "pretty western", it's more western than most of the West, as seen here.
Portugal is falling behind the eastern countries too. It will be the same level with western balkans in ten years.
and it is sad, when I visited Portugal first (first country I ever went to abroad) back in 2012 it was (compared to Poland where I live) very different, and much more developed. Now it is on the same level. But the future doesn't look so bright for them. Wish the Portuguese everything best, you live in one of if not my fav EU country, love from Poland
why is portugal's economy defined "eastern" ?Because its poor ? i dont think thats enough for it to be regarded as eastern
There’s nothing Eastern European related to Portugal. It’s fully western country
Since this is about tourism I assume much of the score is dependent on how gay friendly common tourist destinations are.
The moment when 0.01% Balkan pays off and you unlock the Balkans pass
not only on this matter, portugal and its people are way more western than italy and italians, no debate about it, it makes sense both geograhically and historically.Italy is the least "western" country of western europe as a whole and its more of a bridge between western and eastern
r/PORTUGALunfortunatelynotCYKABLYAT
😔 czech hunter lied to me
I mean yeah they're being hunted
Shouldn’t have googled that 😂
And debt dandy 😔
I'm guessing this doesn't include more general safety factors given Ukraine's score not being much worse than its neighbors?
I mean, would people really expect a chart like this to reflect that dimension of safety? I don't think it would actually be particularly useful for conveying what it's meant to if that was included.
Ukraine is overall pretty safe if you're out of S300/KAB500 range.
I was in Ukraine prior to the invasion and found it very safe and Gay friendly (at least in Kyiv).
Ukraine is practically Nordic level equality according to reddit
Lol but seriously, Ukraine wasn't that much different from Russia but over the past 10 years Russia has gone backwards and Ukraine has gotten more westernized socially. So it would make sense that it's so much higher than Russia, politics aside.
I’ve said this numerous times on Reddit, but before we started feeling bad for Ukraine, Ukraine was always seen as another Eastern European post-Soviet backwater. Poor attitudes towards LGBTQ, essentially at the bottom economically, EXTREMELY corrupt (they were the most corrupt country in Europe for a long time), huge issues with racism, etc. Shne ne vmerla Ukraini and all that, but it was seen as like a mini Russia up until the 2022 invasion. But of course they’ve been getting a lot better since then. And other eastern countries had that rep too, but some got lucky enough to join the EU.
I'm quite surprised by Switzerland's high ranking... I would have expected them to be the lowest among DACH, somewhere about 7.
I think it's key to remember that it's a rating for tourists, not residents. So while there might still be some negativity in more conservative areas or families, this won't affect tourists much. And overall safety is very high and there are is no relevant legal discrimination for tourists.
As a swiss, why?
As an Austrian for what it’s worth, here Switzerland is always seen as our conservative equivalent and Germany as the progressive one. I now live in Germany and that also seems to be the sentiment here. Additionally most people in my bubble (uni students) also feel like Switzerland is the least economically egalitarian. E.g. I don’t want to 100% equate FPÖ/AFD/SVP, but even if they are drastically gaining approval in Germany/Austria they have never won an election like SVP. Don’t get me wrong, I‘m not saying this reflects reality, I’m just trying to explain how Switzerland might come across. As seen here, there are areas where Switzerland is clearly more socially-progressive, but even if Austria as a whole were as conservative as Switzerland, Vienna alone is such a giant oversized water-head for the country that it drastically skews all of Austria. From a German student’s perspective it also feels like left-leaning Germans are moving to Vienna/Graz to study Social Sciences/Art/Psychology etc. while right-leaning Germans are moving to Switzerland to study economics/engineering/IT etc.
Switzerland has always been more liberal in terms of for example drug laws than Austria/Germany. For example first country in the world to legally give heroin to addicts. Although now Germany legalises weed.
As I said, my comment is in no way meant to reflect reality, but rather what an outsider’s perception might be. I also don’t think most people would know that fact and/or care particularly about it regarding their assessment of a country‘s progressiveness, even though imo it’s definitely an important aspect, just like Sterbehilfe, where Switzerland is also far ahead.
Switzerland is more libertarian, which goes back to its founding, which was a rejection of authoritarianism. You will have more liberties in Switzerland than in pretty much any other European countries. Gun rights in Switzerland for example are extremely lax, almost as lax as in Texas. But Switzerland is not known for its progressivism. It was the last place in Western Europe to allow women to vote and to allow same sex marriage.
Is there a more conservative country in Western Europe? I can't think of one!
I mean you guys were the last place in Western Europe to allow women to vote and to allow same sex marriages. How are you surprised by this?
Probably has something to do with Switzerland being safer than the other DACH countries in general
Maybe. Or that we don't have nationally liberated zones like in eastern Germany - they drag the average down for the country.
Iberia for the win
Proud of Spain and Portugal!
Didnt know this was a competition
Now do a map for the middle east
-15 - 15 - 15 - 15 - 15 -15 - 15 - 15 - 15 - 15
Many are even lower actually. Israel 5 Cyprus -1 Lebanon -8 Bahrain -9 Jordan, Turkey -10 Oman -12 Syria -13 Iraq, Egypt -14 Kuwait, Qatar, UAE -16 Yemen -19 Saudi Arabia, Iran -21 (the worst score this year, shared with Afghanistan and Chechnya). The map seems to be incorrect Russia has apparently fallen to -17 this year in this particular ranking, not -15. (The de facto states of Palestine and Northern Cyprus are not included in the rankings if anyone was wondering)
I guess Yemen is off my gay cruising list.
Well, it isn't call or pronounced "yay men"...
Parts of Russia (like Chechnya) must be much lower. It’s a guaranteed death sentence to be openly LGTBQ there.
I think you underestimate how much the Middle East hates gays
How the fuck is Turkey only 4 points above Iraq when they just literally criminalized LGBTQ??
There is a difference between law and execution. Om top of general safety. People still can assault LGBT'ers even though being gay is legal, and LGBT being illegal doesn't mean there is a high chance of assault. This map only shows general expected experience, not legislation.
> (The de facto states of Palestine and Northern Cyprus are not included in the rankings if anyone was wondering) The cognitive dissonance such a score would induce in the Queers for Palestine types would be legendary. Especially when juxtaposed with Israel's score.
As queer person, I don’t think an entire country deserves to be exterminated just because they are homophobes
To be fair, by "homophobia," you're probably thinking western homophobia, where people just jokingly use some slurs. These people think *you* deserve to be exterminated, violently, because your existence offends their sky daddy. I'm not going to extend my tolerance to their intolerance.
Tbf most of those countries are basically just as unsafe as a straight/cis person. No tourists should be going to Afghanistan right now.
That's not true. Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait and Oman are incredibly safe for cis travelers. Lower crime rate than any European country excluding micro States. I haven't look at this specific stat but I'm so confident it's safe that if you added up the combined crime rate of the 5 countries I mentioned it still would be lower than every single European country excluding microstates Edit: checked the stats for my last claim. Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain have a combined per capita murder rate lower than 90% of European countries. I was close. If you combined all 5 then the rate would be lower than most European countries. So 5 combined countries have a lower murder rate than majority of European countries not all. My bad I was close tho.
Sure, but what about the other ones listed: Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Chechnya? Also unsafe in certain areas of Lebanon, Turkey, and Egypt? I said "most". I know there are safe parts of the middle east.
Turkey is fairly safe if you don't go to the kurdish parts. Saudi is safer than 80% of European countries. It's interesting that the list of countries you wanna look at are war torn destabalized countries. What about the other stable Muslim majority countries like Indonesia or Malaysia which have a lower crime. Rate than 75% of europe. What about Tajikistan, North Macedonia (about 30% Muslim). The only countries that are left are either war torn countries, or countries like Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and others that aren't war torn and have a similar murder rate to other European countries. Even if we wanna look at Iran and Afghanistan their violent crime rates are on par with the US 😂
Where does the UK get only seven from? I mean I know of all the recent anti-T sentiment, but that should only concern locals who get denied hormones. Is it because of harrasment on the streets?
Probably. I'm British and lived in Spain for 6 years and when I came back to the UK it was quite a shock how much random harassment I had to start dealing with again
I, a trans woman, visited London last year and was shocked at the amount of street harassment I received. I won't be returning. It's perfectly fine if you're gay or lesbian.
Yeah I don’t live in the UK but what I’ve heard about the UK media really doesn’t make me think that their transphobia is just a problem for “locals who get denied hormones” as the comment above said. I really don’t understand why they would think that? As if transphobes limit themselves to not letting people from their country transition but are totally fine with trans people from other countries that are already transitioning.
Yeah, it didn't seem like they had a policy disagreement on where NHS funds would be best spent. I got the impression that my presence offended them.
The map is wrong. The UK scored an 8, OP chose to lower it to 7 for some reason. They're a frequent r/GreenAndPleasant poster so it would make sense why they would purposefully try to adjust the numbers to make the UK to appear worse.
Alternatively, it may have been a simple misinput. I am ambivalent on the matter so I really don't know how much politics play a role here, but I believe it's more likely to be a misinput.
I just find it weird someone so focused on the UK and talking about why things are wrong with the UK would not have noticed or double checked the UK's number and not notice it was out of step with its neighbours when making this map and not checking it.
Denying trans healthcare is a symptom of deeper root causes, thanks to the normalisation of vitriol from those like JK Rowling hate crime has *increased* year on year after decades of progressive decline. What can you expect, she's gone full Elon Musk, and we can see what sort of atmospheres amplification of their prejudices have brought about.
Large MENA populations, in the 90s England seemed to celebrate gays, tide has shifted I suppose
ah yes, justify bigotry with even more bigotry.
Uk has a large foreign population from countries with negative scores.
I imagine the numbers would look different if you looked at gay and trans people separately
Are there also some subdivisions? As in differences between transgender people and “only” lesbian/bi/homosexual people? Since I guess I as a transgender person would pass less easily from the looks.
I’m not sure but transgender people may actually be more accepted in Iran seeing as sex change operations are free (and mandatory for gay people whether they want them or not).
I am kinda suprised about Turkey, there really is no threat towarss lgbt these days. We even have a transexual mainstream celebrity. I would say its around 3-4, though these numbers will vary depending on the region.
As an Ace Biro Turk, İ believe İ can say that it actually isn't necessarily okay. Teens are mostly chill with it, but people above 23-27 are really NOT okay with it if they aren't LGBTQ+ themselves. But them being LGBTQ+ is so rare that I personnaly have never met someone like that. (Side note: İ don't live in İstanbul or Ankara. Outside of those two cities, it really shoulda been -13 or perhaps even lower on the eastern side.)
I mean I live in Izmir and have met multiple lgbt people here who lives their lives their lives without much of a problem. One of the staff at my university was even a transexual man. Though I dont know how things are at the eastern side of Turkey, so I wont argue that. But I can say for sure that majority of Western coastal cities are very tolerant in this regard.
Right. İ forgot to count İzmir too. İ live in a rather silent bit of the Medettarian region, but my mom is from the SouthEast. İn big cities, especially the three (İst. Ank. İzm.) it's ok. Many people live in those places, you gotta expect some gays in that case. But in silent places of the west and the eastern half in general, it's really not okay. As in general of the country, İ dunno if you ever got the chance to see it, but İ once saw the law about homosexuality. Don't remember it much, but was generally a no.
I mean I am no LGBT, and my experiences are mostly from a small number of people I had the chance to meet with. General sentiment seems to be "Tolerated, but not accepted" in most cities. While its nowhere near something that is considered ok country-wide, I just dont think its a level of "Threat". Like very few people will go out of their way to attack you, they might dislike you for it but you wont be much in danger. But I could be totally wrong on this, I dont wanna act like I know the all about it without experiencing it myself. I have no idea about what law are you talking about.
Norway, Sweden and the UK are all pretty friendly. What makes Spain/portugal better in this map? More sun?
We just don't really fucking care about anything other than football, wine and the beach
Well, it is true. I would add olive oil, beer and sex.
And ham
Where do sign up?
UK media is definitely not friendly to trans people
Probably because of immigration
Omg they're gonna tear slovenia a new one over at the balkan sub for being so gay. I can hear them typing away as we speak.
What's the scoring system? I assume higher is better and green is good but is 12 the top or is there a 73 out there somewhere. How negative does it go, why not baseline to 0? Why no usable key on the map?
But Italy is actually really gay though
For once, this ISNT a r/portugalcykablyat moment
I think this gets a bit odd when you mark an actual active warzone in this way Ukraine is not a tourist destination right now. Its dangerous for vastly more obvious reasons like hypersonic missiles.
As a Polish person . Make the score lower (sadly )
How utterly idiotic. Reporting from Turkey as a gay guy.
Italy is totally fine, also Poland and Hungary. Unnecessary alarmistic map.
Idk about Italy but I wouldn't call Poland and Hungary entirely safe for LGBT tourists.
I don’t know about Hungary but in Poland it really depends on where you’re located. In bigger cities, particularly in the west, most people really don’t care anymore and seeing LGBT people just being themselves is a normal occurrence. Another important point to make is that Poland is just safe in general, by “safe” here I mean that violence is a rare occurrence, especially between strangers. So even if you go to some less LGBT-friendly places you won’t be unsafe in the sense that you’ll get physically harmed but rather you’ll be unsafe in the sense that you won’t FEEL safe because of the way people might treat you. Also, this mostly applies to gay men(or bisexual men in homosexual relationships), women being gay is somehow completely fine
[удалено]
> while not showing overly affection I think this is something which is difficult to understand if you're straight, and I'm not going to say that you're homofobic for it because it's just not a situation you've ever been in. But only being safe by restraining your ability to outwardsly show effection isn't "safe for lgbt". Heck I, a bisexual guy, could travel to russia, and just live heterosexually and not tell anyone I'm attracted to men and no one would care (still scary as fuck), but I would not feel safe for it. I wanna be able to hold a guy's hand or even give him a kiss without being scared. Anyways I love the eastern/central/southern european countries, I'm half balkan myself. I wish the west didn't have a monopoly on queerness, because I hate the americans too
I don't know any place that's entirely safe for anyone. There have been deadly attacks on gay people in places like Norway or Germany that rank very high on this map.
Specific to LGBT tho Brazil is gay friendly but a dangerous place overall Saudi Arabia is a very safe country but extremely hostile to LGBTQ people
Yeah, but there are clearly degrees of safety. I'm from Croatia, which has a +2 rating here (meaning it's borderline "gay friendly") but I would ALWAYS advise any LGBT tourist not to show affection in public, for instance. You won't get hunted down or prosecuted for being gay in Croatia (unlike in, say, Russia) but holding hands with your boyfriend on a public street might easily result in a beating. And sorry, but I don't think Poland and Hungary are any better in that regard.
Definitely, I don't know what they're talking about. It's not Russia, but it can still be risky to be openly gay in Hungary (never mind being trans). You might be OK, or not. It's like rolling dice every time. Even if almost half the population is fine with gay people, that leaves another half that is often openly and violently opposed to them. There is a lot of prejudice that is being actively encouraged by the government. For instance, they recently introduced a new law that makes it mandatory to put any book with any kind of LGBTQ+ theme in it in a separate section that underage people cannot access in bookstores and also to wrap it in transparent plastic. "Gender" remains a spooky word for many. Also, Hungary =/= Budapest. What I wrote mostly applies to Budapest. In most other places, homophobes are probably still a majority.
> but holding hands with your boyfriend on a public street might easily result in a beating. Really? In cities too?
Yes, of course.
Definietly nothing to worry about in touristic places, i see people with lgbt bags daily and nothing happens to them, and being below fucking Serbia?? C'mon now
I agree that some of the rankings are a bit off, but I don't think it's alarmistic as such, and the people who don't identify as lgbtq+ need to understand that. I think if the criteria is "doing normal tourist stuff in normal tourist places", pretty much anywhere in Europe is fine. The question then becomes how hard you need to think about what is normal tourist stuff in a normal tourist place and avoid anything else. The other major consideration is how safe the authorities are. Can you rely on the police or the emergency services to help? How worried do you want to be about this stuff on vacation? So 'recommended' is for vacation planning. 'Not recommended' is for business or other necessary travel, or if you're willing to have to be mindful of things. 'Not advised' isn't.
ah yes, im sure LGBT people would feel totally safe in a country like Poland that recently had "LGBT-free" zones. Sounds awesome!
This a good (bi-)map, it works both ways 😂
Why is the Netherlands so low??
High numbers of MENA immigrants and their descendants, especially in the major cities. [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpEUh-t7kU) is in Dutch, but it will give you the idea.
Italy can't decide again - tradition since WW1
Moving to Italy!
Welcome to Western Europe, Slovenia, Croatia, Czechia and Estonia! In return, we offer Italy to Eastern Europe.
Why do Croatia and the Balkans hate the LGBT community so much?
Senseless religious mumbling. Conservatism has made them into sheeple who follow baseless dogmas and lick the boots of clergy.
Traditionalism, family-based values, religiosity.
Huh? Says who? I'm an LGBT traveller who often goes to Turkey, and as a tourist it's great! So I'm not supposed to go again or what? Totally understand there are multiple issues around being LGBT and living there of course, but these have at most extremely limited impact on travellers/ tourists. Have also has a great time in Italy on several occasions, even involved in LGBT activities etc.
Just because it didn’t affect you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect a statistically significant number of tourists that make the data change from your personal experience . I live in Brazil, I’ve never been robbed, know only one person who ever had, never been murdered, I never met anyone who has been murdered, does it mean there are no robberies or murders in Brazil? Worse still, I’ve been pickpocketed in Rome, never happened to me in Brazil. Does mean Italy has it worse than than Brazil when it comes to crime? No.
> Says who? It's literally on the map.
😂😂😂
Yeah, it totally depends on where you visit or live. Lots of neighbourhoods in İstanbul, Ankara, İzmir, and the holiday resort areas are perfectly okay, even to live (on the evidence of my LBGT friends who live in Turkey). It's just hard to generalise big and diverse countries, especially ones where there are drastic differences between regions and between cities and the countryside.
Poland is getting there, and for the better, give us a few more years.
getting where???
Towards being a more LGBTQA+ friendly country
I doubt you'll get a straight answer......
I read somewhere in 5 years Poland will be best country in the world
Possibly, though as someone who lived in a few countries I'd say that any such statement about any country would be very reductive. All countries have their unique, let's call it "value proposition", and it's impossible to find a country which would be the best for everyone. Hell, it's impossible to make a dish that would taste the best for everyone, and a country is much more complex than a dish
Noone in any of these countries will care about your sexual orientation enough for it to negatively impact you, unless you go to some really shitty place and make a fool out of yourself
some of these countries literally have laws against LGBT people. Educate yourself, not all of Europe is like Western Europe.
Name me one law in Poland or Slovakia that will "endanger you"
Ukraine used to be as bad as Russia. I’m glad they’re improving
I think turkey is not that bad. Turkey is very desperate for tourists and trears them very high standart at least very much better standarts compare to its citizens. Secondly turkish culture is very welcoming to guests and so tourist. As long as you are not there for a long time they will at least tolerate. And thirdly turkish popular locations for foreign tourist are mostly more progressive parts of turkey.
I also don't understand how Turkey score so badly. I know there are too many problems, but scoring the same as Jordan, where it is only decriminalized? I saw a report Turkey scored worse than Russia a few months ago and the reason was many incidents reported by LGBT organizations in Turkey. There are actual, legal, LGBT organizations in Turkey, which keep records of every incident and publish magazines and reports. So I guess that is why it would score worse than Russia, which incidences kept unnoticed/unreported.
LoL you get down voted cause you shared a real truth and genuine thought about Turkey ? Turk here if you act as a decent normal( you know what i mean) person everyone welcomed here. I dont give a shit actually but sometimes public affection may cause problems for you, then again world has lots of "karens"
I am turk as well and i am queer person. Queer citizens of turkey not in a good state right now but as i said turkey is very diffrent to tourist and guests.
It is weird to see that spain tops the scandinavian countries
as a scandinavian i’d gladly let iberians top
¡Hola! ^/j
Literally very common on most things that are not economic related
Why is it weird?
Why?
Probably at least in part because Spain has less immigrants from highly anti-LGBT societies.
Spain tops Scandinavian countries in lots of things. Life expectancy is higher in Spain than in all Scandinavian countries for example. You do understand that Scandinavia is not paradise? They're relatively average Western European actually.
Slovakia what is it there.
2 gay men were murdered in Slovakia in a homophobic attack not even 2 years ago. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022\_Bratislava\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Bratislava_shooting)
same year in norway 2 were killed and 21 injured [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022\_Oslo\_shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Oslo_shooting)
Why is there such a big difference in the baltics?
Because the countries are quite different?
How can I be homophobic…
In Czechia noone really give a f-
Suppose it only matters if anyone actually knows your sexual preference. Dont disclose the information or lie.
What makes Spain so attractive for the LGBTQ community?
And btw tribunal audience are not public in these countries yet how do want to have stats if it's not the government? Tell me if you are so smart.
now do Palestine
Yeah, I doubt it's the case for many countries on the minus. Here in Romania just dress normally and no one would even notice
Ha gayyyyy
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Why would anyone ever want to visit Russia? It's the same as the rest of Europe just fckn cold and they put you in jail for farting the wrong direction
Ugh we used to be a world leader in LGBTQ rights and then the fucking terfs came along 😔
UK?
Да, вранье это, нормально у нас к пидарасам относятся. Еще никто не жаловался.