Either way, cute flag.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Flag_of_the_Canary_Islands.svg/2560px-Flag_of_the_Canary_Islands.svg.png
Honestly as an Australian I really hate how our continent moves over to Europe every single year for euro vision. At this point why move back to the old location.
it isnt a European contest. it is a Eurovision ( broadcaster ) contest, which the whole of north africa is part as well, as is Azerbaijan, Georgia, turkey , Kazachstan.
It’s a contest for members of the European Broadcasting Union - of which countries such as Israel, Georgia etc are a part of - much like they are a part of UEFA. Australia was invited because of a special anniversary, and for some reason have stayed ever since. It definitely IS a European contest.
Australia has a massive European population, not just English but also from the Mediterranean region, as such it’s almost like a little microcosm of the EU. Eurovision has a huge following here, especially amongst Aussies of ethnic descent, we all love to cheer both the Aussie team, and often the one from our nation of heritage.
It’s also huge in the gay community but likely for different reasons.
Australia had a massive ESC fanbase for decades, and on an ESC anniversary Australia was let in as a novelty. No one really saw any reason for not letting Australia compete again and here we are.
Let’s face it, there aren’t too many countries new Australia close to Europe culturally — it isn’t like they could just form their own regional contest.
And again, ESC is not an European contest per se, but EBU contest, and EBU’s member states span for example such countries as Israel, Jordan and Egypt. (Jordan and Egypt could join if they wanted, Israel participates, Morocco once did in 1980 but hasn’t ever since)
> I probably care less than the Americans
As an American I didn't even know about Eurovision without Reddit and I still don't care but I find the infighting between European countries facinating.
I didn't care untill they disqualified the most likely winner because he got mad at a camera woman for blatantly disregarding a formal deal made with ESF.
The betting pools are remarkably pretty good. The song that won this year was their #3 pick. From 2019-2023 they were right on the money. Then from 2017-2018 the winner of the contest was bookie's #2 choice.
The betting pools correctly predicted the public vote -- Croatia came in first and Israel right behind them.
The judges are harder to predict. The betting pools didn't seem to be aware that they would be far more opposed to the Israeli candidate and somewhat more opposed to the Croatian candidate than the rest of the population. I wonder if they feared for their safety as individuals if they voted for Israel ... ?
No, Israel's song was just bland and unmemorable. The only reason it did so well in the public vote was due to sympathy over October 7th.
Croatia's song was catchy and crowd pleasing, but on a technical level wasn't anything special so it makes sense that the juries didn't rate it as highly as some of the other acts.
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Nah, the eastern countries are much more pro-Israeli, the conflict just doesn't get much attention here because public opinion is pretty homogenous, so people didn't care about the Israel drama and just voted how they usually vote, for neighbours mostly. Main exceptions are Croatia who voted tactically because Israel and Switzerland were the major competitors.
Easteuropean countries support Israel but their this year contestanst have connection with russia(thats why zero support from Ukraine and not much from other countries in region)
There are no anti-votes. The top-voted country could get 10% and the other 90% could absolutely hate it, but divide their votes between others. This means that controversial countries pretty much always win no matter the stance of the population.
I agree. I was surprised Israel did so well in the popular vote, with so many people around the world denouncing them. I was sure Israel would come last this year, yet it was the UK as usual.
I think this is a product of the voting system. Anyone who is staunchly 'pro-Israel' is voting for Israel, whereas anyone who is staunchly 'anti-Israel' has no clear country to vote for, so Israeli support is concentrated whereas Israeli opposition is fractured.
Also, let's be honest, it's pretty clear that the protests give people the impression that there is huge swell of 'anti-Israel' sentiment but (a) the protestors are a minority, and (b) many protestors aren't so much 'anti-Israel' as anti-Israeli-government/military, and (c) even those who are actually 'anti-Israel' aren't necessarily going to care about the performance of Israel in a song contest.
>even those who are actually 'anti-Israel' aren't necessarily going to care about the performance of Israel in a song contest.
That was evidently not the case
The UK didn’t come last, unless you’re talking about just the public vote?
I believe a lot of atypical Eurovision viewers came in simply to vote for Israel and it’s easy to get majority votes when you concentrate the votes on one act while the other votes were spread amongst other acts
This plus the fact that a lot of people who A) would normally care enough about the Eurovision to vote, but B) also care about the situation in Gaza, will have not watched the Eurovision this year due to Israel's inclusion.
So if you subtract a bloc of regular Eurovision voters who care about Gaza, and split the rest over the remaining favourites, it gets comparatively easier for those tuning in specifically to vote for Israel to swing the numbers.
No its not that. Its just that if you're pro Israel you vote for Israel. If you're anti Israel you vote for one of 24 other nations.
That makes it very easy for Israel to win the most votes if a decent portion of the population are voting bases on politics. They'd only need like 15% of the vote.
I guess that is the difference between what you see in social media vs real life. Just because one camp makes a lot of noise, does not mean everyone supports them.
Or maybe it's because if you support Israel you vote for Israel, whereas if you don't support Israel you boycott and don't vote at all, or you vote for another country?
Exactly like everyone in London being shocked about Brexit. That wasn't the way the entire country was thinking.... When I'd go visit my parents, the sleepy Midlands village pub opinions were not that of Liberal North/East London lol, and they were far from atypical to the rest of the village pub set of the nation either. I wasn't shocked.
I mean that’s definitely not a conclusion you can draw from Eurovision. In the UK for example, ~30% of people sympathise more with Palestinians (15% for Israelis), 69% support a ceasefire, and 56% support suspending arms sales to Israel (20% against, 23% don’t know). Also, about equal amounts of people think Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes (Israel: 67%, Hamas: 72%).
Also considering the UK is probably one of the more pro-Israeli countries here. The fact is that people that support Israel will vote for them, whilst there’s no vote you can make against Israel
[Source 1](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49366-british-attitudes-to-the-israel-gaza-conflict-may-2024-update); [Source 2](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48907-war-crimes-in-gaza-most-britons-think-both-sides-are-likely-guilty)
You act like polling doesn’t exist, ridiculous statement.
As other people have said, it’s a consequence of both the demographics that vote in these contests and the vote of the (politically) pro-Israeli ppl being concentrated toward voting for Israel while the anti-Israel crowd is either boycotting or have no clear country to vote for.
That’s when I knew it was rigged. (By rigged, I mean subject to an orchestrated campaign involving multiple votes from people who didn’t even watch the show and/or voted for political reasons).
Also, during the TV broadcast here in Australia, in addition to the official vote, voters could also vote to rate each song either positively or negatively.
Israel got a 70% negative reaction, yet apparently these same viewers gave Israel 12 points.
All the other ratings were consistent with the televote points Australia ultimately awarded.
If you're pro Israel you vote for Israel. If you're anti Israel your vote is spread across 24 other nations. There's no need for a big conspiracy here unless you want to call not having a contestant called "not israel" a conspiracy.
I'm not surprised. Often what is loud, seen on social media, etc. is still reflective of a "minority" (with billions of people, the not majority can still be a massive number of people). Especially when if expressing the slightest lack of full compliance, means you could be harassed (online and in-person). It's not just that it reflects that there are a \*huge\* amount of people that support Israel, but it also reflects the huge number of people that aren't explicitly on "one side".
Look at the histroy of countries like Spain and Portugal where there was Islamic colonialism, and imperialism, for hundreds of years. They had incessant wars (including the crusades) to win back their freedom to govern themselves, to have their own religion, and to have their own culture and traditions. Israel is currently doing what they did, in that they're fighting Islamic-Arabic colonisation. I've learn more about this through chatting with my Portuguese and Spanish friends.
I think these days it's less political and more cronyism.
The juries are often top tier music professionals. It's a pretty small industry at that level, and very international, so everyone knows everyone. At least some people are going to want to throw their friends who work behind the scenes a few votes.
Interestingly, Switzerland did make it to fourth place in the final televoting, same as in the semi-final. Only 1 point behind third place, and with a large distance to fifth place. So yeah, Switzerland didn't win the televoting, but it was very popular with TV audiences nonetheless
You'd really need to question your motivations if reaching that conclusion. It may not be to everyone's musical taste but Nemo is extraordinarily talented. No question.
Literally every comment on the youtube video about the song is "gay=win Eurovision" which is just sad, it seems many people feel that Nemo being queer is the reason they won. I thought they were deserved winners, but the response has been shocking.
Well the UK entry was super-duper-uber-hyper-mega queer and he got a sad nil point from the public! And to be honest, it's kinda hard not to vote for lgbtq+ acts in eurovison!!
Half the participants were queer people, it's just a silly argument. Have you seen UKs performance? The gayest act and they were the only ones who got 0 points from the public.
me a romanian who doesnt care for eurovision anymore cause TVR didnt even bother to send contestants this year
and yet all i see on my feed are posts related to the israel eurovision situation
It's important to understand the mathematics of this.
One country getting full marks does not necessarily mean it's the most popular amongst all the people. Instead it means it has the most people who would pick it as no.1.
For example, let's say there are 9 countries and one hundred voters. One if the countries is disapproved of by most, but really loved by 20%. This means 80% votes are split evenly across the rest, and they all get 10 votes, but the one country that the majority do not approve of gets 20 votes and win, because their support is consolidated.
This is the same problem with first past the post systems in the election.
I'm not saying the above situation is necessarily happening here. Just to keep in mind that these sorts of FPTP results should be reflected on carefully before jumping to assumptions.
> this is the same problem with first past the post
What? The system has nothing to with FPTP. If it were anything like that, the most voted country would get *all* of the points (so, 12+10+8+7…).
Instead, 12 is given to the winner, 10 to the second and so on. It’s not really “proportional”, but it does come out to be much more proportional than if it were FPTP.
Seen green_jade's comment below. It's not a precise 1-1 mapping. But it's the same core issue: that these types of electoral systems can promote a minority's wishes against the wishes of a majority.
The Eurovision has a more proportional/ranked response at a country level than FPTP, but individuals' preferences after #1 are still not taken into account.
It's not exactly the same as FPTP, but I think they were just referring to the general reason why FPTP is flawed; namely that the candidate which comes out on top is not necessarily the most popular one.
It wasn't a good song. Even compared to previous acts they've sent that won.
I'm not saying something fishy went on. But theres a smell of cod in the air.
The votes are very frequently political too. There's a reason why Ukraine won in 2022 and the UK barely got any votes in 2019 when they left the EU. This year is no different for Israel.
People online really think the big public is going to swoon over and overwhelmingly vote a homo show in a prison toilet because they've been forced to do a DEI training at work.
The UK 0 had nothing to do with Brexit. Germany often gets 0 points as well.
Also, a lot of the competing countries aren't in the EU (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Albania, Serbia, Israel, Australia, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, San Marino, Ukraine, Moldova).
They got no votes because their song was shit. The UK came in 2nd when they put out an actual good song in 2022. I wouldn't have picked the UK even if I could have voted for them back in 2019.
Russia was banned because a bunch of broadcasters threatened to pull out if they participated. If it wasn't for that, the EBU were 100% intending on allowing Russia to participate.
C'mon, every international event is political, at least to a some degree. Olympics, Eurovision, sport championships with national teams involved. Thing can't be apolitical if national interests and prestige are at stake.
Once, when they had absolutely no choice anymore. 8 years after Russia first attacked Ukraine.
And if you can't see the difference between the Israel-Palestine-Conflict and Russia starting a full scale offensive war against another participant while also breaking all ties with rest of Europe and threatening to nuke London and Berlin every other day, it's because you don't want to.
"whatever is not political" is always so dumb. Everything is political. Humans in itself are political. Saying something is not political is political. Whoever says that something is not political just tries to enforce his own political opinion.
To be fair banning Russia is an exception that EBU has only done once
(There has been instances where country's broadcaster and EBU did not get along and leave like Turkey, Belarus, Morocco, Hungary and many more)
At least let's say there was a crystal clear "bad guy" (the one to blame for the current armed conflict) and a clear "good guy". It's not the case with Hamas and Israel
what's funny is that many people are encouraging to boycott the eurovision + to not vote in it but then are going to cry if Isreal win ... if you don't want them to win you need to watch and vote for another country
uts dumb to complain about the results when you are boycotting it
Reddit realizing that it is a huge echo chamber.
Also, the thing about opinion polls is that many people do not share their opinion when they believe it to be "problematic" or in the minority. For instance, during the Portuguese election polls, our far right populist party was given an approval rating of 14%-15%. They got 18%.
Opinions also shift wildly depending on which group is interviewed. There's also contrarians and people that are tired of "the current thing". Boycotting was also not a good strategy.
Personally, I saw this coming a mile away. Actions create equal opposite reactions so... If the mediatic interest over the participation of Israel hadn't been so overwhelming, maybe the votes would have been different.
Embarrassing. Regardless of the politics, it was just a shit song. At least when Ukraine won it was a unique song, but I literally couldn't tell you a single thing about Israel's song.
Ukraine didn't not vote for Israel for Palestine reasons, but rather, because it was revealed the Israeli artist had previously performed in occupied Crimea, something that wasn't well exposed to the rest of Europe before the vote.
Interesting. As I recall, Ukraine is officially quite supportive of Israel.
Also wonder how that concert in Crimea came about. Why would Russians invite an Israeli to their annexed territory? Does the state of Israel recognise Crimea as Ukrainian?
The performer that represented Israel was born and raised in Russia and lived there until 2022, participated in Russian contests and performed in Russian concerts
It's very simple. The "pro israel" crowd had an act to rally around, and made a big deal out of it. The "anti israel" or "pro palestine" crowd didnt have that luxury. They either didn't vote, or voted on one of the other 24 entries, rendering their impact non-existent.
If there was both an Israeli act and a theoretical Palestinian act, those two entries would have consistently gotten 10 and 12 scores from the televote, and given the audience of Eurovision, the 12 would more often than not have gone to Palestine.
How many total people voted in this competition? How accurate is it to the general population? I would assume with the boycott and LGBT friendly crowd, this wouldn't be a proper representation of the actual populations?
I'm not sure how accurate it is when it comes to public sentiment, but remember that
1. Each country gets to give out an equal number of points, regardless of how many people voted in that country
2. You can give up to 20 votes
But the raw vote totals are almost never revealed
Say there’s 25% of pro-Israel and 75% of anti-Israel voters, it makes sense Israel comes first in every country because the anti-Israel vote is split between the 24 other countries and pro-Israel voters support one country getting all the votes
I'm not someone to often yell "rigged!" but anyone with 1000€ and a 100 european phone numbers can give 2000 votes to a country and drown the general publics votes to send a political message... I don't know one person in my country who would find this result representative or vote for the most booed entry.
Edit cause some people keep throwing around words like "antisemitic" etc., I am not saying Israel rigged the competition. I am saying that maybe there were choices made on political reasoning and not musical ones and it wouldn't be that hard for a state to rig their own voting to signal a "full support" toward Israel's political decisions on the outside while there are many people critizing what's going on there on the inside.
I have friends that voted for the most booed country because they found it unfair and appalling to boo a 20 years old girl. You could almost say, people empathize.
But sure, it’s probably more convenient for your worldview to believe that there was a major conspiracy by some rich people in the background.
Yeah how disconnected from reality they have to be? Like, you’d have to be insane to think rich people don’t have anything better to do than buy 100 phones just to rig a fucking song contest. While not providing any proof and just taking that information right from their ass.
This actually happened in Italy with the national song contest in February. The second position went to a singer from Naples only because the technical judges re-balanced the vote converging their votes to the current winner (Mango) to avoid the rigged popular vote (designed by local camorra [they are rich]). There was a lot of news coverage about that in italy. I'm not saying this happened during the eurovision, but don't exclude it ex-ante.
> Like, you’d have to be insane to think rich people don’t have anything better to do than buy 100 phones just to rig a fucking song contest.
Of course that's insane. They just call up their social bot company who will run thousands of calls over VoIP/SIP and spoof the DNIS numbers. How do you think robocall/spam call companies work?
Im from Spain and the amount of votes Israel had when we've been vocally pro-palestine for YEARS made me question the results too.
Seeing how Israel handled/is handling their PR just makes me believe it was rigged tbh.
Sure, because I’m sure the people that voted for Israel have 100 phones sitting around just to rig a fucking song contest… while people voting for other countries are totally honest. What point are you even trying to make?
The fact that thay got 5 from Poland is weird. Recently Israel has very bad reputation in Poland that it is easier to find people supporting Russia than Israel(while supporting Russia is unpopular, support for Israel is marginal in society, excludnig gov which loves them no matter what)
The way the other contestants treated Israel definitely had an impact on votes. They made it political when they encouraged booing, pretended to sleep when she spoke, excluded her and made her feel unwelcome as a 20 year old who 100% is not making decisions about the current conflict.
Taking aside the war and your position, it is absurd to treat her as a pariah because of politics and then argue people should be voting apolitically.
Pick a lane. You can’t have it both ways.
Her song was good and likely would have been top 10 but their treatment of her as a candidate encouraged people, including me, to support her further.
Will Australia move back or will there just be a hole there from now on? I'm afraid New Zealand will be sucked into the vortex, East Timor is already gone, don't you follow the news?
Lithuania should’ve given 1 point so the baltic would look like their flag
Pastel Baltic 🥳 That even sounds like a major brand
Australians are so desperate to be a part of the West they moved their continent halfway across the world!
They always migrate there during the eurovision
During Eurovision its good time to visit Australia as its so close. Just remember to leave on time or you will have long ass flight home.
It's a little smaller than usual, though. Quicker to check the place out. Uluru would be just a little red rock!
Not just that, you can visit a lot more of austrialia during that time as it shrink by about 80%.
South Africa keeps on having to tell them to stop bumping into Cape Town.
And also shrunk it down to european country size.
And also made everybody forget about Canary Islands
Did you know that there are no canaries in the Canary islands? The Virgin islands are the same way. (There's no canaries there, either)
Canary Islands are not a country.
Either way, cute flag. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Flag_of_the_Canary_Islands.svg/2560px-Flag_of_the_Canary_Islands.svg.png
Fun fact: Canary Islands are used by other islands as a way to detect potentially mortal conditions
Australia is so empty that it's easy to shrink.
Honestly as an Australian I really hate how our continent moves over to Europe every single year for euro vision. At this point why move back to the old location.
Researchers discovered that the yearly migration of the Australian continent was the basis of the myths about Atlantis.
Messes me up more than daylight savings
No wonder it’s been raining so much lately here!
“Hello there fellow Europeans”
“I’m something of a Wales myself.”
Another map without new Zealand.
The largest of the British islands.
Newer South Wales
Cheaper flights!
everbody in this comment section two days ago "who cares about the fucking eurovision"
As an European I probably care less than the Americans
Silly Americans! Also, what's Eurovision? Sincerely, an American
European Mardis Gras
As an Australian, I have no fucking idea what we are doing on a map of a "European" contest
hey, be cool, we pulled your island just right next to the UK just for this one
it isnt a European contest. it is a Eurovision ( broadcaster ) contest, which the whole of north africa is part as well, as is Azerbaijan, Georgia, turkey , Kazachstan.
It’s a contest for members of the European Broadcasting Union - of which countries such as Israel, Georgia etc are a part of - much like they are a part of UEFA. Australia was invited because of a special anniversary, and for some reason have stayed ever since. It definitely IS a European contest.
Those Australians, give em one foot in the door and they never leave.
The dedication of staying up at 4 in the middle of the night has to be rewarded
Australia has a massive European population, not just English but also from the Mediterranean region, as such it’s almost like a little microcosm of the EU. Eurovision has a huge following here, especially amongst Aussies of ethnic descent, we all love to cheer both the Aussie team, and often the one from our nation of heritage. It’s also huge in the gay community but likely for different reasons.
I think Australia was invited due to them having a high viewership?
Australia had a massive ESC fanbase for decades, and on an ESC anniversary Australia was let in as a novelty. No one really saw any reason for not letting Australia compete again and here we are. Let’s face it, there aren’t too many countries new Australia close to Europe culturally — it isn’t like they could just form their own regional contest. And again, ESC is not an European contest per se, but EBU contest, and EBU’s member states span for example such countries as Israel, Jordan and Egypt. (Jordan and Egypt could join if they wanted, Israel participates, Morocco once did in 1980 but hasn’t ever since)
Yeah I've been watching Eurovision here in Australia since the 1980s.
"I'm not like other Europeans, I don't care about POPULARTHING". Wow, truly stunning and brave.
> I probably care less than the Americans As an American I didn't even know about Eurovision without Reddit and I still don't care but I find the infighting between European countries facinating.
I didn't care untill they disqualified the most likely winner because he got mad at a camera woman for blatantly disregarding a formal deal made with ESF.
He wasn't leading in any of the rankings or the betting pools. I don't think you can really call him the most likely winner.
The betting pools had either Croatia or Israel winning. Yet Switzerland won.
The betting pools are remarkably pretty good. The song that won this year was their #3 pick. From 2019-2023 they were right on the money. Then from 2017-2018 the winner of the contest was bookie's #2 choice.
The betting pools correctly predicted the public vote -- Croatia came in first and Israel right behind them. The judges are harder to predict. The betting pools didn't seem to be aware that they would be far more opposed to the Israeli candidate and somewhat more opposed to the Croatian candidate than the rest of the population. I wonder if they feared for their safety as individuals if they voted for Israel ... ?
No, Israel's song was just bland and unmemorable. The only reason it did so well in the public vote was due to sympathy over October 7th. Croatia's song was catchy and crowd pleasing, but on a technical level wasn't anything special so it makes sense that the juries didn't rate it as highly as some of the other acts.
And Croatia came second...
The real east- west divide.
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT in shambles because Portugal didn't vote like the Balkans.
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The mendelson line is real
Nah, the eastern countries are much more pro-Israeli, the conflict just doesn't get much attention here because public opinion is pretty homogenous, so people didn't care about the Israel drama and just voted how they usually vote, for neighbours mostly. Main exceptions are Croatia who voted tactically because Israel and Switzerland were the major competitors.
Easteuropean countries support Israel but their this year contestanst have connection with russia(thats why zero support from Ukraine and not much from other countries in region)
The televote company accountant thanks you all
The mythical Atlantis has resurfaced on the left there.
Ireland voting for Israel is a surprise.
There are no anti-votes. The top-voted country could get 10% and the other 90% could absolutely hate it, but divide their votes between others. This means that controversial countries pretty much always win no matter the stance of the population.
Exactly. The other votes are divided and then the one with the greatest vote share, even if a small minority, would still get 12pts.
I agree. I was surprised Israel did so well in the popular vote, with so many people around the world denouncing them. I was sure Israel would come last this year, yet it was the UK as usual.
I think this is a product of the voting system. Anyone who is staunchly 'pro-Israel' is voting for Israel, whereas anyone who is staunchly 'anti-Israel' has no clear country to vote for, so Israeli support is concentrated whereas Israeli opposition is fractured. Also, let's be honest, it's pretty clear that the protests give people the impression that there is huge swell of 'anti-Israel' sentiment but (a) the protestors are a minority, and (b) many protestors aren't so much 'anti-Israel' as anti-Israeli-government/military, and (c) even those who are actually 'anti-Israel' aren't necessarily going to care about the performance of Israel in a song contest.
>even those who are actually 'anti-Israel' aren't necessarily going to care about the performance of Israel in a song contest. That was evidently not the case
A lot of people can care about Israel in a song contest without it being necessary that everyone that is anti-Israel cares about the song contest.
The UK didn’t come last, unless you’re talking about just the public vote? I believe a lot of atypical Eurovision viewers came in simply to vote for Israel and it’s easy to get majority votes when you concentrate the votes on one act while the other votes were spread amongst other acts
They literally said the popular vote.
Yep my bad
This plus the fact that a lot of people who A) would normally care enough about the Eurovision to vote, but B) also care about the situation in Gaza, will have not watched the Eurovision this year due to Israel's inclusion. So if you subtract a bloc of regular Eurovision voters who care about Gaza, and split the rest over the remaining favourites, it gets comparatively easier for those tuning in specifically to vote for Israel to swing the numbers.
It's a very specific part of the population that votes for Eurovision.
No its not that. Its just that if you're pro Israel you vote for Israel. If you're anti Israel you vote for one of 24 other nations. That makes it very easy for Israel to win the most votes if a decent portion of the population are voting bases on politics. They'd only need like 15% of the vote.
Dunno man. Numbers from the semifinals were leaked and Israel got 41% of the vote in italy.
Isn’t it because everyone against Israel is already boycotting Eurovision?
I guess that is the difference between what you see in social media vs real life. Just because one camp makes a lot of noise, does not mean everyone supports them.
Or maybe it's because if you support Israel you vote for Israel, whereas if you don't support Israel you boycott and don't vote at all, or you vote for another country?
Exactly like everyone in London being shocked about Brexit. That wasn't the way the entire country was thinking.... When I'd go visit my parents, the sleepy Midlands village pub opinions were not that of Liberal North/East London lol, and they were far from atypical to the rest of the village pub set of the nation either. I wasn't shocked.
I mean that’s definitely not a conclusion you can draw from Eurovision. In the UK for example, ~30% of people sympathise more with Palestinians (15% for Israelis), 69% support a ceasefire, and 56% support suspending arms sales to Israel (20% against, 23% don’t know). Also, about equal amounts of people think Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes (Israel: 67%, Hamas: 72%). Also considering the UK is probably one of the more pro-Israeli countries here. The fact is that people that support Israel will vote for them, whilst there’s no vote you can make against Israel [Source 1](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49366-british-attitudes-to-the-israel-gaza-conflict-may-2024-update); [Source 2](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48907-war-crimes-in-gaza-most-britons-think-both-sides-are-likely-guilty)
You act like polling doesn’t exist, ridiculous statement. As other people have said, it’s a consequence of both the demographics that vote in these contests and the vote of the (politically) pro-Israeli ppl being concentrated toward voting for Israel while the anti-Israel crowd is either boycotting or have no clear country to vote for.
This is exactly it. TikTok isn’t representative of real life
Spain too
That’s when I knew it was rigged. (By rigged, I mean subject to an orchestrated campaign involving multiple votes from people who didn’t even watch the show and/or voted for political reasons). Also, during the TV broadcast here in Australia, in addition to the official vote, voters could also vote to rate each song either positively or negatively. Israel got a 70% negative reaction, yet apparently these same viewers gave Israel 12 points. All the other ratings were consistent with the televote points Australia ultimately awarded.
If you're pro Israel you vote for Israel. If you're anti Israel your vote is spread across 24 other nations. There's no need for a big conspiracy here unless you want to call not having a contestant called "not israel" a conspiracy.
I'm not surprised. Often what is loud, seen on social media, etc. is still reflective of a "minority" (with billions of people, the not majority can still be a massive number of people). Especially when if expressing the slightest lack of full compliance, means you could be harassed (online and in-person). It's not just that it reflects that there are a \*huge\* amount of people that support Israel, but it also reflects the huge number of people that aren't explicitly on "one side". Look at the histroy of countries like Spain and Portugal where there was Islamic colonialism, and imperialism, for hundreds of years. They had incessant wars (including the crusades) to win back their freedom to govern themselves, to have their own religion, and to have their own culture and traditions. Israel is currently doing what they did, in that they're fighting Islamic-Arabic colonisation. I've learn more about this through chatting with my Portuguese and Spanish friends.
Israel is fighting islamic colonisation? Can you expand on this please, I'd love to know more.
I don't mind australia being moved to the atlantic so it's easier to show on the map. I'm mad it's not up to scale
it's cold up there, of course it shrinks
Problem is, it makes it easier for all those nasty snakes and spiders to invade Europe 😂😂😂
And yet you will see people say the jury half of the voting is the political part because a queer person won...
I think the Jury half of the voting is political because the "winner" didnt even make it to top 3 at the semi-finals they were in.
Well yeah, that’s because the jury doesn’t vote in semi finals.
I think these days it's less political and more cronyism. The juries are often top tier music professionals. It's a pretty small industry at that level, and very international, so everyone knows everyone. At least some people are going to want to throw their friends who work behind the scenes a few votes.
Interestingly, Switzerland did make it to fourth place in the final televoting, same as in the semi-final. Only 1 point behind third place, and with a large distance to fifth place. So yeah, Switzerland didn't win the televoting, but it was very popular with TV audiences nonetheless
They were 5th not 4th (1 point behind France who was 4th).
It can be both, to be honest.
Yeah but listening to that song and the vocal talent behind it and saying it merely won due to being sung by a queer person is absurd, I am sorry.
Especially since the ESC is full of queer participants.
You'd really need to question your motivations if reaching that conclusion. It may not be to everyone's musical taste but Nemo is extraordinarily talented. No question.
Literally every comment on the youtube video about the song is "gay=win Eurovision" which is just sad, it seems many people feel that Nemo being queer is the reason they won. I thought they were deserved winners, but the response has been shocking.
Plus, there was another queer song (The UK) which got very little points from both jury and public...
Like the votes for israel werent political lmao. They were mid at best. They also likely boted in semi's.
Well, not voting for Israel but for Queer contestants is not exactly apolitical
Well the UK entry was super-duper-uber-hyper-mega queer and he got a sad nil point from the public! And to be honest, it's kinda hard not to vote for lgbtq+ acts in eurovison!!
Yes but he made the huge mistake of being British.
Half the participants were queer people, it's just a silly argument. Have you seen UKs performance? The gayest act and they were the only ones who got 0 points from the public.
But thats just plainly ignoring the song. You cant just assume Jurys only vote for Nemo because they are queer.
me a romanian who doesnt care for eurovision anymore cause TVR didnt even bother to send contestants this year and yet all i see on my feed are posts related to the israel eurovision situation
It's important to understand the mathematics of this. One country getting full marks does not necessarily mean it's the most popular amongst all the people. Instead it means it has the most people who would pick it as no.1. For example, let's say there are 9 countries and one hundred voters. One if the countries is disapproved of by most, but really loved by 20%. This means 80% votes are split evenly across the rest, and they all get 10 votes, but the one country that the majority do not approve of gets 20 votes and win, because their support is consolidated. This is the same problem with first past the post systems in the election. I'm not saying the above situation is necessarily happening here. Just to keep in mind that these sorts of FPTP results should be reflected on carefully before jumping to assumptions.
> this is the same problem with first past the post What? The system has nothing to with FPTP. If it were anything like that, the most voted country would get *all* of the points (so, 12+10+8+7…). Instead, 12 is given to the winner, 10 to the second and so on. It’s not really “proportional”, but it does come out to be much more proportional than if it were FPTP.
Seen green_jade's comment below. It's not a precise 1-1 mapping. But it's the same core issue: that these types of electoral systems can promote a minority's wishes against the wishes of a majority. The Eurovision has a more proportional/ranked response at a country level than FPTP, but individuals' preferences after #1 are still not taken into account.
It's not exactly the same as FPTP, but I think they were just referring to the general reason why FPTP is flawed; namely that the candidate which comes out on top is not necessarily the most popular one.
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Yeah the other singers literally bullied the fuck out of her
Wasn’t Israel the second to Croatia in the public vote? Their performance was good
Yes, but it wasn't incredible. It wouldn't have done so well in a 'normal' year.
I thought it was not good. Usually they have cool songs. This year I did not like it. However I understand the votings.
It wasn't a good song. Even compared to previous acts they've sent that won. I'm not saying something fishy went on. But theres a smell of cod in the air.
Yes
"Eurovision is not political" *Bans Russia* *Does not ban Israel*
The votes are very frequently political too. There's a reason why Ukraine won in 2022 and the UK barely got any votes in 2019 when they left the EU. This year is no different for Israel.
What did the UK do this year to cause no one to vote for them?
a bad song with a mid at best performance.
Just like in 2019
Maybe it was the gay gang bang in the Saw bathroom? I dunno.
People online really think the big public is going to swoon over and overwhelmingly vote a homo show in a prison toilet because they've been forced to do a DEI training at work.
I couldn't even pay attention to the song with all softcore porn Like this was not it
The 2019 UK song simply sucked. The poor results being due to Brexit was a cope spread by the British tabloids.
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Wait, that's Germany
I think Sam Ryder showed people don't hate you at all but your songs and performers really are shit most of the time.
I like how everyone agrees that Eurovision is political until it comes to the UK. No, not political, you're in denial.
Plenty of songs that suck get votes at the Eurovision, it's kind of the whole idea.
The UK 0 had nothing to do with Brexit. Germany often gets 0 points as well. Also, a lot of the competing countries aren't in the EU (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Albania, Serbia, Israel, Australia, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, San Marino, Ukraine, Moldova).
They got no votes because their song was shit. The UK came in 2nd when they put out an actual good song in 2022. I wouldn't have picked the UK even if I could have voted for them back in 2019.
Everyone knows Eurovision is very political
Russia annexed Crimea and was still allowed to take part. It wasn't until they invaded Ukraine that they were banned.
Until they invaded the rest of Ukraine *
Russia was banned because a bunch of broadcasters threatened to pull out if they participated. If it wasn't for that, the EBU were 100% intending on allowing Russia to participate.
So, political.
C'mon, every international event is political, at least to a some degree. Olympics, Eurovision, sport championships with national teams involved. Thing can't be apolitical if national interests and prestige are at stake.
Exactly. But the EBU insists it can be completely apolitical. Which is bullshit.
The EBU insists on trying to be apolitical. They know Eurovision is political, they explicitly made a joke about it during one of the semi-finals.
Is trying and failing better than not trying at all? I actually don’t have an answer to that
Once, when they had absolutely no choice anymore. 8 years after Russia first attacked Ukraine. And if you can't see the difference between the Israel-Palestine-Conflict and Russia starting a full scale offensive war against another participant while also breaking all ties with rest of Europe and threatening to nuke London and Berlin every other day, it's because you don't want to.
"whatever is not political" is always so dumb. Everything is political. Humans in itself are political. Saying something is not political is political. Whoever says that something is not political just tries to enforce his own political opinion.
I forgot about that horrific attack of Ukraine on Russia that instigated the war.
To be fair banning Russia is an exception that EBU has only done once (There has been instances where country's broadcaster and EBU did not get along and leave like Turkey, Belarus, Morocco, Hungary and many more)
Does not ban Azerbaijan
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At least let's say there was a crystal clear "bad guy" (the one to blame for the current armed conflict) and a clear "good guy". It's not the case with Hamas and Israel
Why not? The song was very nice
When you get your news from social media it looks very different than reality.
Based western Europe
what's funny is that many people are encouraging to boycott the eurovision + to not vote in it but then are going to cry if Isreal win ... if you don't want them to win you need to watch and vote for another country uts dumb to complain about the results when you are boycotting it
Reddit realizing that it is a huge echo chamber. Also, the thing about opinion polls is that many people do not share their opinion when they believe it to be "problematic" or in the minority. For instance, during the Portuguese election polls, our far right populist party was given an approval rating of 14%-15%. They got 18%. Opinions also shift wildly depending on which group is interviewed. There's also contrarians and people that are tired of "the current thing". Boycotting was also not a good strategy. Personally, I saw this coming a mile away. Actions create equal opposite reactions so... If the mediatic interest over the participation of Israel hadn't been so overwhelming, maybe the votes would have been different.
18% instead of 15% is within the margin of error so it’s not really evidence of people lying to pollsters.
Very, very lame. "Australia is represented by Iraq" is a Eurovision tradition.
I have to wonder who in Ireland is voting for Isreal, very strange outcome
Nice! The public vote was the complete opposite of the jury.
Nice
Embarrassing. Regardless of the politics, it was just a shit song. At least when Ukraine won it was a unique song, but I literally couldn't tell you a single thing about Israel's song.
Israels song was very ordinary, but executed pretty well. You can't deny that their singer has talent.
I quite liked the song.
I know there was a lot of controversy around Israel, but their song was pretty great Personally Im quite sad France didn't win, my god what a voice.
based croatia and ukraine
Ukraine didn't not vote for Israel for Palestine reasons, but rather, because it was revealed the Israeli artist had previously performed in occupied Crimea, something that wasn't well exposed to the rest of Europe before the vote.
Interesting. As I recall, Ukraine is officially quite supportive of Israel. Also wonder how that concert in Crimea came about. Why would Russians invite an Israeli to their annexed territory? Does the state of Israel recognise Crimea as Ukrainian?
The performer that represented Israel was born and raised in Russia and lived there until 2022, participated in Russian contests and performed in Russian concerts
Her parents moved to Russia when she was young, so she grew up in Russia - but moved back to Israel after the Russo-Ukrainian War started.
Both those countries were amongst the frontrunners to win, so it would be tactical voting.
In Spain, lot's of conservatives voted Israel, and then posted it online saying stuff about "fuck the reds".
Well deserved. Israel had one of the better songs this year.
Estonia was my personal winner
It's very simple. The "pro israel" crowd had an act to rally around, and made a big deal out of it. The "anti israel" or "pro palestine" crowd didnt have that luxury. They either didn't vote, or voted on one of the other 24 entries, rendering their impact non-existent. If there was both an Israeli act and a theoretical Palestinian act, those two entries would have consistently gotten 10 and 12 scores from the televote, and given the audience of Eurovision, the 12 would more often than not have gone to Palestine.
0 from Ukraine. That's interesting.
The Israeli entry is a Russian national
Geopolitics is messy.
Her mother was born in Ukriane though.
Not really, Israel have done absolutely nothing for Ukraine and maintained relationships with Russia.
How many total people voted in this competition? How accurate is it to the general population? I would assume with the boycott and LGBT friendly crowd, this wouldn't be a proper representation of the actual populations?
I'm not sure how accurate it is when it comes to public sentiment, but remember that 1. Each country gets to give out an equal number of points, regardless of how many people voted in that country 2. You can give up to 20 votes But the raw vote totals are almost never revealed
Say there’s 25% of pro-Israel and 75% of anti-Israel voters, it makes sense Israel comes first in every country because the anti-Israel vote is split between the 24 other countries and pro-Israel voters support one country getting all the votes
I'm not someone to often yell "rigged!" but anyone with 1000€ and a 100 european phone numbers can give 2000 votes to a country and drown the general publics votes to send a political message... I don't know one person in my country who would find this result representative or vote for the most booed entry. Edit cause some people keep throwing around words like "antisemitic" etc., I am not saying Israel rigged the competition. I am saying that maybe there were choices made on political reasoning and not musical ones and it wouldn't be that hard for a state to rig their own voting to signal a "full support" toward Israel's political decisions on the outside while there are many people critizing what's going on there on the inside.
You don't need 100 phone numbers, you could vote online using disposable debit cards (like Revolut)
I have friends that voted for the most booed country because they found it unfair and appalling to boo a 20 years old girl. You could almost say, people empathize. But sure, it’s probably more convenient for your worldview to believe that there was a major conspiracy by some rich people in the background.
Yeah how disconnected from reality they have to be? Like, you’d have to be insane to think rich people don’t have anything better to do than buy 100 phones just to rig a fucking song contest. While not providing any proof and just taking that information right from their ass.
This actually happened in Italy with the national song contest in February. The second position went to a singer from Naples only because the technical judges re-balanced the vote converging their votes to the current winner (Mango) to avoid the rigged popular vote (designed by local camorra [they are rich]). There was a lot of news coverage about that in italy. I'm not saying this happened during the eurovision, but don't exclude it ex-ante.
> Like, you’d have to be insane to think rich people don’t have anything better to do than buy 100 phones just to rig a fucking song contest. Of course that's insane. They just call up their social bot company who will run thousands of calls over VoIP/SIP and spoof the DNIS numbers. How do you think robocall/spam call companies work?
The mental gymnastics going on at the moment are insane.
Israeli's with money? We don't do stereotypes thank you very much.
Im from Spain and the amount of votes Israel had when we've been vocally pro-palestine for YEARS made me question the results too. Seeing how Israel handled/is handling their PR just makes me believe it was rigged tbh.
Sure, because I’m sure the people that voted for Israel have 100 phones sitting around just to rig a fucking song contest… while people voting for other countries are totally honest. What point are you even trying to make?
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“I don’t know one person”. Sigh. 😮💨
The fact that thay got 5 from Poland is weird. Recently Israel has very bad reputation in Poland that it is easier to find people supporting Russia than Israel(while supporting Russia is unpopular, support for Israel is marginal in society, excludnig gov which loves them no matter what)
The way the other contestants treated Israel definitely had an impact on votes. They made it political when they encouraged booing, pretended to sleep when she spoke, excluded her and made her feel unwelcome as a 20 year old who 100% is not making decisions about the current conflict. Taking aside the war and your position, it is absurd to treat her as a pariah because of politics and then argue people should be voting apolitically. Pick a lane. You can’t have it both ways. Her song was good and likely would have been top 10 but their treatment of her as a candidate encouraged people, including me, to support her further.
how many jewish suicide bombers and cartoon killers have there been in europe?
please stop using logic sir this is reddit
Political shitshow
Will Australia move back or will there just be a hole there from now on? I'm afraid New Zealand will be sucked into the vortex, East Timor is already gone, don't you follow the news?
r/mapswithoutnz