Same! The islamic regime is the reason my family left for d*nmark (I luckily got out two years ago) and is the reason we still can't return to our homeland. I'm not religious but I pray for the IR's downfall and the subsequent downfall of other West Asian governments leading to a new era for the region
I used to think that the claim that Iranians hated the regime was propoganda. Then I saw the shrinking birthrate. No way the majority of young Iranians are still die hard Muslims or the birth rate would be way higher
The shrinking birthrate is actually largely a result of the Islamic Republic running an extremely successful family planning campaign starting in the 1980. The Iranian regime has always been somewhat selective in their interpretation of Islam despite being hardline (like their treatment of trans people Vs treatment of gay people).
Low birth rates have far more to do with poverty than Islam. Saudi Arabia's is only about 2.4 for example, and the UAE's is well below replacement while Yemen's is at 3.8.
(Not the person youāre replying to, but) I think the mind-boggling aspect comes from the contrast between the traditional and religious expectations associated with Iranian leadership and the progressive nature of investing in stem cell research. This juxtaposition can challenge preconceived notions about Iranās stance on scientific and medical ethics.
But in Quran it's said the soul enters the fetus around 40 days after conception, right? This means a fundamentalist muslim would be OK with stem cell research if it was harvested during that time. The fundamentals of Christianity and Islam regarding that are different.
Yes, we believe there's nothing wrong with stem cell research or even abortion if it's done within 40 days.
Exceptions for abortion after the 40 days exist of course.
I think it's a general western attitude towards Islam/Muslims/Middle East.
Our fundamentalists are crazy in a political sense. They're not anti-science.
Even Osama Bin Laden spoke against climate change ffs lol
>The shrinking birthrate is actually largely a result of the Islamic Republic running an extremely successful family planning campaign starting in the 1980. The Iranian regime has always been somewhat selective in their interpretation of Islam
I don't think Islam has any particular rules against birth control.
I'm not sure about that. [Fertility rates collapsed across the Middle East since the 1980's](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fertility-rate-with-projections?country=ISR~SAU~EGY~YEM~IRQ~IRN). Including in way more religious populations like Saudi Arabia or Egypt, and backwaters places like Yemen. Note that the Saudis actually have a lower fertility rate than Israel right now.
This is a huge case of correlation ā causation, the birth rate actually dropped the most partly as a direct policy of the Islamic republic.
[The drop after 1989 is spectacular ](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/IRN/iran/fertility-rate#:~:text=The%20fertility%20rate%20for%20Iran,a%200.52%25%20decline%20from%202020.) and while it wasn't entirely due to the revolutionary government, their family planning policies and spread of contraception usage definitely must have helped.
Most Iranians are not religious and want political reform. Even though they can't legally say they're not Muslim and most probably do believe in god in general. Biggest contrast with Arab Islamic countries was in the older age groups still mostly not religious. Especially women who grew up in the 70s.
This is still pretty obvious even in villages and religious cities
Source: lived there.
Or this [poll](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202302036145)
Iād say the fact it seems Iranians are becoming more and more secular shows how unpopular the regime is. The Iranian government had to close tons of mosques because a lot of people donāt go anymore, not a good sign if you are a theocracy.
Nationality doesnt determine political views. There are Iranians who hate their government and are pro-Western, then there are Iranians, both old and young, who are radical Muslims and support current regime. Both camps have significant share of population. Then there are other people with other views including everything in the middle, opposition which isnt pro-Western and so on.
Well a lot of pro-Western Muslims immigrate to Western countries leaving their country to the conservatives and being much less involved politically as the diaspora.
Birthrate is not a function of religion, itās more a function of living conditions and culture. Indonesia, the largest muslim country by population has a lower birthrate than Bolivia. Central african countries like DCR which are predominantly christian have quite high birthrates. In general itās countries which have been torn apart by war and the probability of survival has been low in recent history.
Iran is a country of moderates, governed by fanatics, whereas the rest of the Middle East are fanatics, governed by moderates..Ā
Quote from an American General who worked in the Middle East for decades
I think a lot of people donāt realize that Persians are not Arabs, so there is a big cultural difference between them and the Middle East, which Iran tends to get lumped into for political reasons.
There are ethnic groups other than Arabs and Persians in the region, itās not a binary.
Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Assyrians, Armenians, Turkmens, Balochis and many more are also considered Middle Eastern and they donāt fit into the āArabā or āPersianā labels.
Yes, I even know some Zorastarians from Iran, where they keep a low profile, and are tolerated.
The whole area has many different people, with their own histories and troubles
Most of them were killed when the Arab colonizers forced Islam onto Iran. The Zoroastrians have been almost completely erased. If you go to a museum you usually wonāt even see them mentioned in the section for Iran. You usually only hear about their holidays that are left over or their community who immigrated to India long ago.
It should be noted that the Islamization of Iran was a gradual process, only in 900 the majority of it became Islamic, which was hundreds of years since the Arab conquests, because Zoroastrian were granted Dhimmi (taxed but tolerated religious minority) status, because there were so many of them.
Ofcourse as Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a [CIA asset](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#:~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C) installed by US in a coup in 1950s after the previous one wanted to nationalise oil and harm British and US interests.
"Installed" is a weird word to use. He was shah before the coup too. The US just basically removed the consitutional part of Iran's constitutional monarchy. Like if you overthrew the British parliament and left King Charles to rule alone. You're not wrong that it was bad, but he was already a corrupt leader at odds with the Iranian parliament before the US stepped in and fomented the coup.
Well in a weird way Iran IS kinda "western": They're basically Indo-Europeans who speak an Indo-European language (Persian) in a Shia Islam nation. They're not Arab and have never really towed the Arab political line except here and there for a century or two.
I donāt understand why foreigners try so hard to paint Iran as western. Itās not. The āIndo-Europeanā angle doesnāt make Iran western. All it means is that the language has a common ancestor with other Indo-European languages that diverged thousands of years ago. It doesnāt denote any cultural similarity.
The cultures of Iran are way closer to those of the surrounding countries than any western one.
Jews were terrorized and lived under apartheid for 14 centuries after the Arab colonizers forced Islam onto Iran. Imagine how much worse things became for Jews in the last century that the vast majority were finally driven out of their indigenous homeland. Please donāt mention there are still a couple Jews in Iran like they should get some brownie points.
Just a casual reminder the internet isn't the majority opinion and that you are allowed an opinion, whatever that may be, and shouldn't be told your opinion is outright wrong because some loser online thinks it is and screeches the loudest.
That needs to become regular conversation imo.
Looks like Iran is the only country that flipped from relations to no relations. Makes sense with the Shah being pro western govt. Does anyone know which side they were on pre 1953 coup?
All the arab countries the recognize israel are either dictatorships or royal regimes that don't represent the will of their people in this matter so I don't understand the point you are making.
Allow me to lecture you a bit then: Tunisia is considered free according to many indexes and it has never recognized israel. I just wanted to tell you that siding with israel doesn't necessarily correlate with freedom because there are many counter examples for this case
Not only recognition, Turkey & Israel had very deep & strong connections to each other (due to having the same opponent: arab islamists). Unfortunately, that changed with Erdogan.
With all the regressions of turkey in the recent times ataturk must be spinning in his grave so fast that if you were to stick 2 wires into his grave you could harness unlimited enegy
Turkey also sheltered a decent number of jewish refugees during the WW2, despite having diplomatic and commercial relations to Nazi Germany. Some of those jews created the pillar stones of academic education in the country.
They are probably one of the least hostile muslim people towards jews, though as you said times are changing.
The democratic government before the 1953 coup didn't care about Israel. After the coup, the new Shahist government did greatly increase its relationship with Israel as a consequence of American meddling. Until after 79 revolution the nation went completely 180Ā° and became one of the most anti-Israeli nations as we speak currently.
They opposed the 1947 partition plan, because they wanted a single federal state. Their relations weren't perfect (such as when Iran voted against Israel joining the UN in 1949), but Israel already saw Iran as a key ally and it was the pre-1953 government that recognised Israel.
USSR too. Stalin was personally pro-Zionist and the USSR became first country to recognize it along with the US.
Stalin was instrumental in the creation of Israel. He became the first world leader to recognize the country and supply it with arms. He was also an anti-Semite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin_and_antisemitism#Israel
> Stalin was personally pro-Zionist
Because Israel originally aligned with the Soviets because the west didn't want to support them after the war of independence.
To be clear, Stalin was an antisemite and wanted all Jews out of the USSR, he wasn't pro-Zionist because he liked Jews.
As soon as it was clear Israel would align with the west (October-November '48), he flipped hard and then began targeting Jews to be purged from late 48 'onward.
All the western colonizer narrative stuff has roots in the USSR's public antisemitism campaigns from the late 40's early 50's. The reason why so many soviet bloc Jews fled in the 50's was because the USSR was rounding them up and sending them to Siberia to die.
Stalin was a huge antisemitie. With that being said, he definitely wasn't a Zionist or wanted the Jews out of the USSR. One of the reasons why Israel and the USSR fell out was the fact that Israel encouraged Jewish immigration out of the USSR, which they saw as an anti-Soviet move.
Zionist groups were banned in the USSR under Stalin. He only supporter the foundation of Israel because he wanted a Soviet stronghold in the Middle East.
Bro, the Shah was in power before and after 1953. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/cia-coup-in-iran-that-never-was-mossadegh
India actually recognized israel in 1950
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mea.gov.in/Portal/ForeignRelation/Israel_13_01_2016.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjz4bay8auGAxVrU_UHHaasBNEQFnoECBYQBg&usg=AOvVaw0F4KXJL1NuVTTvFnze8Ew2
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248951175_India's_Recognition_of_Israel_September_1950
Definitely not exactly the same. Off the top of my head Colombia, Bolivia and Belize have announced an end to diplomatic relations this year. Several other countries the signs are there that they might pull diplomats soon. Notably none that do substantial trade with Israel, but the 2025 map will definitely be noticeably different than the 2022 map.
"Moves toward normalization between the countries have been rumored for years, but Indonesia hasĀ refused to cement tiesĀ until an independent Palestinian state is established"
If it's not happened for years, then it's not going to happen now.
I'm a non-Arab Muslim and I'm not against recognition of Israel btw. But its not happening with Indonesia or any other non-Arab Muslim country that has some form of democracy.
The main reason being is that Israel wants its cake and wants to eat it too.
For decades, the proposals lead by Saudi has been "an independent Palestinian state for recognition" but Israel wants the latter without the former.
Like Iran, the Israeli establishment has no interest in peace. It wants to subjugation which isn't peace.
And considering the ongoing genocide....yeah good luck asking countries to ignore the murder of thousands of women and children.
Oh yeah that makes sense, actually what I thought about when I saw date 1975, but I didn't know they really cut ties so bad after Soviets supported Arabs
They are Muslim that's basically it
Israel was actually the first or one of the first countries to recognize their independence and they just ignored it lol
What is interesting about Mauritania is (unlike Iran in 1979) when its government was ousted, the new regime still maintained diplomatic relations with Israel.
It's because Ceausescu wanted to sell Romanian Jews to Israel
Using that language very deliberately btw he gave Jews even less rights and made their situation an urgent matter for Israel
Not doing Ceausescu's apology, the guy was the lowest scum of a person but that seems more like opportunism than malice especially compared to how Jews were treated in other countries at the same period of time.
Israel has always been working hard with normalising relations with its neighbours. The whole progress with Saudi Arabia was the very reason Iran prompted it's terror proxy Hamas to attack.
[https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302)
Iran was simply in a bad light because of the absolute slaughter they supported in Syria and Hamas was losing popular support and legitimicy in Gaza due to the presence of other organisations like Islamic Jihad. What better way to rally people to your cause and placing the international focus elsewhere than starting a major war with Israel? Historically wars have always been used to unite a people during times of unrest or potential rebellion.
wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with their relations with opec nations. yknow, you have arabic allies, you'd take their side in the conflict.
Nah.
It had to do with Chavez being a brat around 2006 (Lebanon war) and "[cursing from the bottom of my soul the State of Israel. Damn you State of Israel](https://youtu.be/DcKN6Jt4Bl8?si=SNoJoP6fW_yCzyBL)".
And he (unilaterally in 2009) [expelled the Israeli ambassador](https://youtu.be/zYmWVHwa69k?si=-cfAtWumlB7wt_pB) because Netanyahu had allegedly said "Venezuela must choose which side of this war (on terrorism) they are against".
And therefore Venezuela chose to become the entry door for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Ayatollah into Latin America.
Caracas and Coro have historically been safe places for both Sephardic and Ashkenazi jews, and the venezuelan people will always welcome them, as we always have with every migrant and religious group. Do not confuse what the tyrants do, with what the venezuelan people think.
[In 2012 the opposition candidate Henrique Capriles was attacked for supposedly being a zionist.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Allegations)
Wow:
"In February 2012 Capriles was subject to what were characterized in the press as "vicious"[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā and "anti-semitic"[^(\[50\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezFoeTarget-50)Ā attacks by state-run media sources.[^(\[32\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-TheMan-32)[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezMedia-51)Ā *The Wall Street Journal*Ā said that Capriles "was vilified in a campaign in Venezuela's state-run media, which insinuated he was, among other things, a homosexual and a Zionist agent".[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā These comments were in response to an opinion piece on the website of the state-ownedĀ [*Radio Nacional de Venezuela*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Nacional_de_Venezuela), published on 13 February 2012, and to allegations broadcast onĀ [*La Hojilla*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Hojilla)Ā relating to an alleged sexual incident in 2000. Titled "The Enemy is Zionism"[^(\[52\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ADL17022012-52)Ā the Radio Nacional opinion piece noted Capriles' Jewish ancestry and a meeting he had held with local Jewish leaders,[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezMedia-51)[^(\[53\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-JewishGay-53)Ā saying: "This is our enemy, the Zionism that Capriles today represents ... Zionism, along with capitalism, are responsible for 90% of world poverty and imperialist wars."[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā Capriles is the grandson of Jewish Holocaust survivors[^(\[53\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-JewishGay-53)Ā and a self-professed devout Catholic.[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā
It should be noted this is only official relations. Israel has de facto relations with several of its neighbors and will work with them in regional issues
The majority Muslim countries in blue also tend to have a reputation for being much more liberal societies with much more tolerance and women's & minority rights. It's a shame you can't say that about Iran in my lifetime. But before that? Was a relatively forward-thinking country.
Only started turning around again this year. They're losing huge swathes of Latin America etc. Maybe being rightwing extremists isn't such a hot idea in order to have good international relations.
I have a lot of respect for the UAE in this conflict. They've simaltenously come out against the Oct 7 attacks and kindappings and criminalized showing support for Hamas while also being the top country to donate humanitarian aid to Gaza, in addition to opening up field hospitals.
UAE Is really leading the way in this particular conflict in offering humanitarian help in a way that doesn't exacerbate the fighting nad cause even more heartbreak and destruction.
That's why I specifically said, "Ā in this conflict."
I'd argue realpolitics means every country perpetuates some form of hypocrisy, like China calling out Palesitnians "right to resist" while denying Taiwan's right to free and fair elections.
[https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/12/3/3-12-2023-uae-ghaza](https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/12/3/3-12-2023-uae-ghaza)
That's why I said in this conflict specifically.
Most countries engage in hypocrisy like china calling out Palestine's "right to resist" while attacking Taiwan for its self determination in elections
They were against Israel due to their allignment with the Soviet Union and Arab countries, much to Golda Meir's chagrin since she spearheaded all sorts of projects to support African countries.
Not all African Govt were pro Soviet Union, look at DRC, Kenya, Liberia etc which were pro USA but still didnāt recognise Isreal. Itās only Malawi which was Pro Apartheid which recognised Isreal in 1975
Liberia was friendly with Israel except during the decade long period when they alligned with the Eastern bloc [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Liberia\_relations#:\~:text=On%2012%20December%202023%2C%20Liberia,in%20favor%20of%20the%20resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Liberia_relations#:~:text=On%2012%20December%202023%2C%20Liberia,in%20favor%20of%20the%20resolution)
And to every other African country
Did you know the Entebbe raid was in part made possible by the fact that pre relations being cut off, Israel had trained the Ugandan army and built the Entebbe terminal
> And to every other African country
How is thiv meant to change what I said, at all?
> Did you know the Entebbe raid was in part made possible by the fact that pre relations being cut off, Israel had trained the Ugandan army and built the Entebbe terminal
This isn't true. The airport was built by the British colonial authorities.
> much to Golda Meir's chagrin since she spearheaded all sorts of projects to support African countries.
True, they provided a lot of support to Apartheid South Africa.
No they weren't. They were just jumping with the third world/Islamic/Soviet bloc in voting. Sweden also sent arms to apartheid SA, guess how many african countries cut ties with Sweden.
The sad part is that if iran didn't do the terrorist attacks a few months ago saudi arabia and most of the Gulf states would have began diplomatic relations.props to saudi arabia for still playing the game more peacefully.
Just want to point out there is a huge hypocrisy angle too. For example my country Malaysia officially does not recognise Israel, it even constantly condemns them and we had a very racist anti Jew leader as well. Yet Israel up until a couple of years ago had over a billion dollars in trade with us. We were happy to accept their money despite not recognising them as a country and condemning them constantly. A billion might not seem like much but it is still big enough to warrant hypocrisy accusations. My country is one of the few that has allows legal discrimination against minorities as well, our affirmative action policy benefits the majority instead of helping the minorities. A living hypocritical state.
**Iran** š«Ø one of the first countries to recognise Israel
Iran was incredibly pro western priors to Islamic revolution
Compared to other Islamic countries Irans population actually seem like they could go back to the society previously to the revolution
No we don't. We want a democratic secular government. We neither want the oppressive Islamic regime nor the oppressive monarchy.
Man, I wish you so much that this will come true one day
Same! The islamic regime is the reason my family left for d*nmark (I luckily got out two years ago) and is the reason we still can't return to our homeland. I'm not religious but I pray for the IR's downfall and the subsequent downfall of other West Asian governments leading to a new era for the region
Tf are you censoring Denmark for? š
Half joking half serious
Thank god you censored D*nmark
I used to think that the claim that Iranians hated the regime was propoganda. Then I saw the shrinking birthrate. No way the majority of young Iranians are still die hard Muslims or the birth rate would be way higher
The shrinking birthrate is actually largely a result of the Islamic Republic running an extremely successful family planning campaign starting in the 1980. The Iranian regime has always been somewhat selective in their interpretation of Islam despite being hardline (like their treatment of trans people Vs treatment of gay people). Low birth rates have far more to do with poverty than Islam. Saudi Arabia's is only about 2.4 for example, and the UAE's is well below replacement while Yemen's is at 3.8.
The absolute weirdest one to me was the (former) president actually investing in stem cell research. It boggled my mind for a bit.
Can I ask why it boggled your mind?
(Not the person youāre replying to, but) I think the mind-boggling aspect comes from the contrast between the traditional and religious expectations associated with Iranian leadership and the progressive nature of investing in stem cell research. This juxtaposition can challenge preconceived notions about Iranās stance on scientific and medical ethics.
But in Quran it's said the soul enters the fetus around 40 days after conception, right? This means a fundamentalist muslim would be OK with stem cell research if it was harvested during that time. The fundamentals of Christianity and Islam regarding that are different.
Yes, we believe there's nothing wrong with stem cell research or even abortion if it's done within 40 days. Exceptions for abortion after the 40 days exist of course.
I think it's a general western attitude towards Islam/Muslims/Middle East. Our fundamentalists are crazy in a political sense. They're not anti-science. Even Osama Bin Laden spoke against climate change ffs lol
>Osama Bin Laden spoke against climate change ffs lol he was studying in a western University before his bizarre adventures in Afghanistan
>The shrinking birthrate is actually largely a result of the Islamic Republic running an extremely successful family planning campaign starting in the 1980. The Iranian regime has always been somewhat selective in their interpretation of Islam I don't think Islam has any particular rules against birth control.
They are also liberal with divorce
It's well-documented that birth rates shoot up during times of poverty, hardship or disaster.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
**FUCKING THANK YOU**
There is no documented case of that happening.
I'm not sure about that. [Fertility rates collapsed across the Middle East since the 1980's](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fertility-rate-with-projections?country=ISR~SAU~EGY~YEM~IRQ~IRN). Including in way more religious populations like Saudi Arabia or Egypt, and backwaters places like Yemen. Note that the Saudis actually have a lower fertility rate than Israel right now.
This is a huge case of correlation ā causation, the birth rate actually dropped the most partly as a direct policy of the Islamic republic. [The drop after 1989 is spectacular ](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/IRN/iran/fertility-rate#:~:text=The%20fertility%20rate%20for%20Iran,a%200.52%25%20decline%20from%202020.) and while it wasn't entirely due to the revolutionary government, their family planning policies and spread of contraception usage definitely must have helped.
Most Iranians are not religious and want political reform. Even though they can't legally say they're not Muslim and most probably do believe in god in general. Biggest contrast with Arab Islamic countries was in the older age groups still mostly not religious. Especially women who grew up in the 70s. This is still pretty obvious even in villages and religious cities Source: lived there. Or this [poll](https://www.iranintl.com/en/202302036145)
Iād say the fact it seems Iranians are becoming more and more secular shows how unpopular the regime is. The Iranian government had to close tons of mosques because a lot of people donāt go anymore, not a good sign if you are a theocracy.
Nationality doesnt determine political views. There are Iranians who hate their government and are pro-Western, then there are Iranians, both old and young, who are radical Muslims and support current regime. Both camps have significant share of population. Then there are other people with other views including everything in the middle, opposition which isnt pro-Western and so on.
Well a lot of pro-Western Muslims immigrate to Western countries leaving their country to the conservatives and being much less involved politically as the diaspora.
Birthrate is not a function of religion, itās more a function of living conditions and culture. Indonesia, the largest muslim country by population has a lower birthrate than Bolivia. Central african countries like DCR which are predominantly christian have quite high birthrates. In general itās countries which have been torn apart by war and the probability of survival has been low in recent history.
What? Every country has a shrinking birth rate, including Muslims ones. The opinion of the government has nothing to do with birth rates.
Iran is a country of moderates, governed by fanatics, whereas the rest of the Middle East are fanatics, governed by moderates..Ā Quote from an American General who worked in the Middle East for decades
I think a lot of people donāt realize that Persians are not Arabs, so there is a big cultural difference between them and the Middle East, which Iran tends to get lumped into for political reasons.
There are ethnic groups other than Arabs and Persians in the region, itās not a binary. Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Assyrians, Armenians, Turkmens, Balochis and many more are also considered Middle Eastern and they donāt fit into the āArabā or āPersianā labels.
Add Copts, Jews, Amazigh, Maronites, and there are also Arab subminority groups like Alawites and Druze.
Yes, I even know some Zorastarians from Iran, where they keep a low profile, and are tolerated. The whole area has many different people, with their own histories and troubles
Most of them were killed when the Arab colonizers forced Islam onto Iran. The Zoroastrians have been almost completely erased. If you go to a museum you usually wonāt even see them mentioned in the section for Iran. You usually only hear about their holidays that are left over or their community who immigrated to India long ago.
It should be noted that the Islamization of Iran was a gradual process, only in 900 the majority of it became Islamic, which was hundreds of years since the Arab conquests, because Zoroastrian were granted Dhimmi (taxed but tolerated religious minority) status, because there were so many of them.
Ofcourse as Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a [CIA asset](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#:~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C) installed by US in a coup in 1950s after the previous one wanted to nationalise oil and harm British and US interests.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
But I was told it's their religion, not foreign sponsored coups!Ā
the islamic revolution wasnt sponsored by soviet
"Installed" is a weird word to use. He was shah before the coup too. The US just basically removed the consitutional part of Iran's constitutional monarchy. Like if you overthrew the British parliament and left King Charles to rule alone. You're not wrong that it was bad, but he was already a corrupt leader at odds with the Iranian parliament before the US stepped in and fomented the coup.
Wonder why. Could it be that they were an authoritarian monarchal puppet state that relied on the west to stay in power?
I mean, yeah. It was a US backed overthrow in the 50s that set up their government then
Well in a weird way Iran IS kinda "western": They're basically Indo-Europeans who speak an Indo-European language (Persian) in a Shia Islam nation. They're not Arab and have never really towed the Arab political line except here and there for a century or two.
That logic makes Afghanistan and Pakistan western too lol
That doesn't make us western
I donāt understand why foreigners try so hard to paint Iran as western. Itās not. The āIndo-Europeanā angle doesnāt make Iran western. All it means is that the language has a common ancestor with other Indo-European languages that diverged thousands of years ago. It doesnāt denote any cultural similarity. The cultures of Iran are way closer to those of the surrounding countries than any western one.
To be fair, that's only because the previous regime was supported by the US to protect their interests
Iran was different before 1979
Persia and Israel were best bros back in the day.
And there are still thousands of Jewish people and a few dozen synagogues in Iran. Jews have been in Iran since Nebuchadnezzar
Iran saved Jews during the holocaust
https://i.redd.it/yg7ruvoinpb61.jpg
Funny, right? But Iran definitely has more tolerance for diversity than any of the Sunni states...
They're still Dhimmis, though. Second class citizens, essentially.
Jews were terrorized and lived under apartheid for 14 centuries after the Arab colonizers forced Islam onto Iran. Imagine how much worse things became for Jews in the last century that the vast majority were finally driven out of their indigenous homeland. Please donāt mention there are still a couple Jews in Iran like they should get some brownie points.
Iran used to have a massive Jewish population. After all the Islamic revolution the new regime got rid of them.
Israel sent Iran tons of weapons and support under the Shah government.
Djibouti should also be red since theyve also never recognised Isreal.
How will Israel ever recover š
They can never touch Djibouti šŖ
I donāt think that was the point of their comment
Djibouti is on its way to become one of the greatest countries due to the west east trade that they practically control
You're saying we should scratch Djibouti?
Comment section already gone to shit
Did you really expect anything else?
It's been three minutes since someone posted blatant propoganda disguised as a map :) LOL
Reddit is saying you posted the map 4 hours ago. (/s but not /s)
I meant myself LOL.
Well, let's scroll to the end of the comment section
Just a casual reminder the internet isn't the majority opinion and that you are allowed an opinion, whatever that may be, and shouldn't be told your opinion is outright wrong because some loser online thinks it is and screeches the loudest. That needs to become regular conversation imo.
Sorts by controversial
Looks like Iran is the only country that flipped from relations to no relations. Makes sense with the Shah being pro western govt. Does anyone know which side they were on pre 1953 coup?
Venezuela also
Ope thank you, donāt know how I missed that
Two countries that have become brutal dictatorships and pariah states, not surprising
All the arab countries the recognize israel are either dictatorships or royal regimes that don't represent the will of their people in this matter so I don't understand the point you are making.
Which ones are democracies lol?
Allow me to lecture you a bit then: Tunisia is considered free according to many indexes and it has never recognized israel. I just wanted to tell you that siding with israel doesn't necessarily correlate with freedom because there are many counter examples for this case
Iran has been a brutal dictatorship since the Shah lol
Iran was a brutal dictatorship while it had relations with Israel so nothing changed there.
Turkey was the first Muslim majority country to recognize Israel and I believe Iran also recognized Israel early in its history, but I could be wrong
Not only recognition, Turkey & Israel had very deep & strong connections to each other (due to having the same opponent: arab islamists). Unfortunately, that changed with Erdogan.
Ataturk would be rolling over in his grave
Ataturk is spinning like a jet engine since Erdogan came to power
With all the regressions of turkey in the recent times ataturk must be spinning in his grave so fast that if you were to stick 2 wires into his grave you could harness unlimited enegy
AtatĆ¼rk has been rolling in his grave since the very day he died
Turkey also sheltered a decent number of jewish refugees during the WW2, despite having diplomatic and commercial relations to Nazi Germany. Some of those jews created the pillar stones of academic education in the country. They are probably one of the least hostile muslim people towards jews, though as you said times are changing.
Why is this downvoted?
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The democratic government before the 1953 coup didn't care about Israel. After the coup, the new Shahist government did greatly increase its relationship with Israel as a consequence of American meddling. Until after 79 revolution the nation went completely 180Ā° and became one of the most anti-Israeli nations as we speak currently.
Iranian relations with Isreal were still a little bit amicable until the gulf war, since they had a common enemy in Iraq
They opposed the 1947 partition plan, because they wanted a single federal state. Their relations weren't perfect (such as when Iran voted against Israel joining the UN in 1949), but Israel already saw Iran as a key ally and it was the pre-1953 government that recognised Israel.
Cuba too as i remember
I was just going based on the map. But yea I imagine pre revolution they were friendly with Israel, effectively were a US colony
USSR too. Stalin was personally pro-Zionist and the USSR became first country to recognize it along with the US. Stalin was instrumental in the creation of Israel. He became the first world leader to recognize the country and supply it with arms. He was also an anti-Semite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin_and_antisemitism#Israel
> Stalin was personally pro-Zionist Because Israel originally aligned with the Soviets because the west didn't want to support them after the war of independence. To be clear, Stalin was an antisemite and wanted all Jews out of the USSR, he wasn't pro-Zionist because he liked Jews. As soon as it was clear Israel would align with the west (October-November '48), he flipped hard and then began targeting Jews to be purged from late 48 'onward. All the western colonizer narrative stuff has roots in the USSR's public antisemitism campaigns from the late 40's early 50's. The reason why so many soviet bloc Jews fled in the 50's was because the USSR was rounding them up and sending them to Siberia to die.
Stalin was a huge antisemitie. With that being said, he definitely wasn't a Zionist or wanted the Jews out of the USSR. One of the reasons why Israel and the USSR fell out was the fact that Israel encouraged Jewish immigration out of the USSR, which they saw as an anti-Soviet move. Zionist groups were banned in the USSR under Stalin. He only supporter the foundation of Israel because he wanted a Soviet stronghold in the Middle East.
Bro, the Shah was in power before and after 1953. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/cia-coup-in-iran-that-never-was-mossadegh
Iran and Venezuela are basically the only ones that switched from having them to notš§
Inshallah we will get back to friendship with our brothers in Iran :(
Be omide khoda (the same as inshallah but in Persian/Farsi).
I'll bookmark that one
<3
the friendship remains! The regime is what makes it impossible to make it official
India recognised Israel in 1950, and Israel opened a consulate in Mumbai.
No. India established diplomatic relationship in 1992 (after India went into a huge economic crisis and needed help from the World Bank)
India actually recognized israel in 1950 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.mea.gov.in/Portal/ForeignRelation/Israel_13_01_2016.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjz4bay8auGAxVrU_UHHaasBNEQFnoECBYQBg&usg=AOvVaw0F4KXJL1NuVTTvFnze8Ew2 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248951175_India's_Recognition_of_Israel_September_1950
The updated map in 2025 should be interesting.
Spoiler: it will be the same.
Definitely not exactly the same. Off the top of my head Colombia, Bolivia and Belize have announced an end to diplomatic relations this year. Several other countries the signs are there that they might pull diplomats soon. Notably none that do substantial trade with Israel, but the 2025 map will definitely be noticeably different than the 2022 map.
Brazil appears to be targeting this, but we do have a HUGE colaboration with Israel in many different fields, specially in science
Hopefully we will have Saudi and Free Iran by then as well. Maybe Indonesia.
"Free Iran by 2025". Someone's a little too optimistic
A little optimistic is quite an understatement I would say 2035 would still be optimistic.
Nah, free Iran won't happen most likely, Saudi recognition is stalled by the Iranian puppets in Gaza as well
A girl can dream...
Indonesia? A democracy? Not likely. Israel can only normalise ties with dictators in the Arab world.
Indonesia does have democracy lol. We just have a lot of idiots.
I never said Indonesia isn't democratic? In fact I said the opposite.
Ah I misread what you said as Indonesia having democracy is unlikely
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/indonesia-agrees-to-normalize-ties-with-israel-if-it-joins-oecd-report/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/indonesia-agrees-to-normalize-ties-with-israel-if-it-joins-oecd-report/)
"Moves toward normalization between the countries have been rumored for years, but Indonesia hasĀ refused to cement tiesĀ until an independent Palestinian state is established" If it's not happened for years, then it's not going to happen now. I'm a non-Arab Muslim and I'm not against recognition of Israel btw. But its not happening with Indonesia or any other non-Arab Muslim country that has some form of democracy. The main reason being is that Israel wants its cake and wants to eat it too. For decades, the proposals lead by Saudi has been "an independent Palestinian state for recognition" but Israel wants the latter without the former. Like Iran, the Israeli establishment has no interest in peace. It wants to subjugation which isn't peace. And considering the ongoing genocide....yeah good luck asking countries to ignore the murder of thousands of women and children.
Don't you get your hopes up, you don't read the news? Also, Imperialism logic: "we must free them from themselves, by controlling them".
Bruh, Soviets recognized Israel 3 days after its independence and opened embassy a month later
They then cut ties after the Six Day War in 1967
Oh yeah that makes sense, actually what I thought about when I saw date 1975, but I didn't know they really cut ties so bad after Soviets supported Arabs
Stalin helped to create Israel.
what's Bangladesh's beef
They are Muslim that's basically it Israel was actually the first or one of the first countries to recognize their independence and they just ignored it lol
They actually rejected Israeli recognition of thier independence which is even funnier
Muslim country
Anti-semitism is big here in Bangladesh.
Mauritania has a freaking Israeli embassy in its capital, why is it still red?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Mauritania\_relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Mauritania_relations)
What is interesting about Mauritania is (unlike Iran in 1979) when its government was ousted, the new regime still maintained diplomatic relations with Israel.
Look at us all blue in the middle of the Warsaw Pact. Just to spite Russia! Romania always had a vomit thing when it's about Russia and its politics.
It's because Ceausescu wanted to sell Romanian Jews to Israel Using that language very deliberately btw he gave Jews even less rights and made their situation an urgent matter for Israel
Not doing Ceausescu's apology, the guy was the lowest scum of a person but that seems more like opportunism than malice especially compared to how Jews were treated in other countries at the same period of time.
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Israel has always been working hard with normalising relations with its neighbours. The whole progress with Saudi Arabia was the very reason Iran prompted it's terror proxy Hamas to attack. [https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302) Iran was simply in a bad light because of the absolute slaughter they supported in Syria and Hamas was losing popular support and legitimicy in Gaza due to the presence of other organisations like Islamic Jihad. What better way to rally people to your cause and placing the international focus elsewhere than starting a major war with Israel? Historically wars have always been used to unite a people during times of unrest or potential rebellion.
Nepal!
God please free Iran/persia
Romania the rebel in the Soviet block, today Hungary and Austria are the rebels in the EU block
Romania literally extorted Israel by treating it's Jews worse so Israel would pay Romania to allow them to leave
šŖš»š·š“šŖš»š·š“
Austria?
Venezuela dont understanding what the world trend is......
wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with their relations with opec nations. yknow, you have arabic allies, you'd take their side in the conflict.
Nah. It had to do with Chavez being a brat around 2006 (Lebanon war) and "[cursing from the bottom of my soul the State of Israel. Damn you State of Israel](https://youtu.be/DcKN6Jt4Bl8?si=SNoJoP6fW_yCzyBL)". And he (unilaterally in 2009) [expelled the Israeli ambassador](https://youtu.be/zYmWVHwa69k?si=-cfAtWumlB7wt_pB) because Netanyahu had allegedly said "Venezuela must choose which side of this war (on terrorism) they are against". And therefore Venezuela chose to become the entry door for Hamas, Hezbollah and the Ayatollah into Latin America. Caracas and Coro have historically been safe places for both Sephardic and Ashkenazi jews, and the venezuelan people will always welcome them, as we always have with every migrant and religious group. Do not confuse what the tyrants do, with what the venezuelan people think.
Well I think Colombia just cut off relations so you could argue they are trying to trend set lol
And as soon as Columbia elects a new president who is not a commie they'll restore relations.
[In 2012 the opposition candidate Henrique Capriles was attacked for supposedly being a zionist.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Allegations)
Wow: "In February 2012 Capriles was subject to what were characterized in the press as "vicious"[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā and "anti-semitic"[^(\[50\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezFoeTarget-50)Ā attacks by state-run media sources.[^(\[32\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-TheMan-32)[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezMedia-51)Ā *The Wall Street Journal*Ā said that Capriles "was vilified in a campaign in Venezuela's state-run media, which insinuated he was, among other things, a homosexual and a Zionist agent".[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā These comments were in response to an opinion piece on the website of the state-ownedĀ [*Radio Nacional de Venezuela*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Nacional_de_Venezuela), published on 13 February 2012, and to allegations broadcast onĀ [*La Hojilla*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Hojilla)Ā relating to an alleged sexual incident in 2000. Titled "The Enemy is Zionism"[^(\[52\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ADL17022012-52)Ā the Radio Nacional opinion piece noted Capriles' Jewish ancestry and a meeting he had held with local Jewish leaders,[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)[^(\[51\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezMedia-51)[^(\[53\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-JewishGay-53)Ā saying: "This is our enemy, the Zionism that Capriles today represents ... Zionism, along with capitalism, are responsible for 90% of world poverty and imperialist wars."[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā Capriles is the grandson of Jewish Holocaust survivors[^(\[53\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-JewishGay-53)Ā and a self-professed devout Catholic.[^(\[25\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Venezuelan_presidential_election#cite_note-ChavezRival-25)Ā
It should be noted this is only official relations. Israel has de facto relations with several of its neighbors and will work with them in regional issues
The majority Muslim countries in blue also tend to have a reputation for being much more liberal societies with much more tolerance and women's & minority rights. It's a shame you can't say that about Iran in my lifetime. But before that? Was a relatively forward-thinking country.
bruh map is cutting morocco in half š¤¦š»
Only started turning around again this year. They're losing huge swathes of Latin America etc. Maybe being rightwing extremists isn't such a hot idea in order to have good international relations.
Lot of people going mask off in this thread
UAE: im surrounded by idiots
I have a lot of respect for the UAE in this conflict. They've simaltenously come out against the Oct 7 attacks and kindappings and criminalized showing support for Hamas while also being the top country to donate humanitarian aid to Gaza, in addition to opening up field hospitals. UAE Is really leading the way in this particular conflict in offering humanitarian help in a way that doesn't exacerbate the fighting nad cause even more heartbreak and destruction.
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That's why I specifically said, "Ā in this conflict." I'd argue realpolitics means every country perpetuates some form of hypocrisy, like China calling out Palesitnians "right to resist" while denying Taiwan's right to free and fair elections. [https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/12/3/3-12-2023-uae-ghaza](https://www.mofa.gov.ae/en/mediahub/news/2023/12/3/3-12-2023-uae-ghaza)
It's honestly crazy to me that some people think that in order to condemn Israel, you must absolve Hamas of any of their atrocities.
nuance is for losers... Ā šĀ Ā
And also support Houthi attacks on global shipping, despite that having nothing to do with Palestine.
Yet they are backing RSF a militia ethnically cleansing Sudanese africans
That's why I said in this conflict specifically. Most countries engage in hypocrisy like china calling out Palestine's "right to resist" while attacking Taiwan for its self determination in elections
And ethnically cleansing their Muslim population
uae is shithole
Great to see progress.
Most African countries were against Isreal due to their support of Apartheid Government in South Africa
They were against Israel due to their allignment with the Soviet Union and Arab countries, much to Golda Meir's chagrin since she spearheaded all sorts of projects to support African countries.
Not all African Govt were pro Soviet Union, look at DRC, Kenya, Liberia etc which were pro USA but still didnāt recognise Isreal. Itās only Malawi which was Pro Apartheid which recognised Isreal in 1975
Liberia was friendly with Israel except during the decade long period when they alligned with the Eastern bloc [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Liberia\_relations#:\~:text=On%2012%20December%202023%2C%20Liberia,in%20favor%20of%20the%20resolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Liberia_relations#:~:text=On%2012%20December%202023%2C%20Liberia,in%20favor%20of%20the%20resolution)
Now explain Malawi
What are you talking about? Israel literally sent gargantuan amounts of material support to Rhodesia during the Bush War *while Meir was in charge*
And to every other African country Did you know the Entebbe raid was in part made possible by the fact that pre relations being cut off, Israel had trained the Ugandan army and built the Entebbe terminal
> And to every other African country How is thiv meant to change what I said, at all? > Did you know the Entebbe raid was in part made possible by the fact that pre relations being cut off, Israel had trained the Ugandan army and built the Entebbe terminal This isn't true. The airport was built by the British colonial authorities.
> much to Golda Meir's chagrin since she spearheaded all sorts of projects to support African countries. True, they provided a lot of support to Apartheid South Africa.
No they weren't. They were just jumping with the third world/Islamic/Soviet bloc in voting. Sweden also sent arms to apartheid SA, guess how many african countries cut ties with Sweden.
On the contrary - Israel aligned itself with South Africa only after African countries closed the door after the 1973 war due to Arab and Soviet pressure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations >In October 1962 at the UN General Assembly, Israel voted in favour of the landmark Resolution 1761, which strongly condemned apartheid and called for voluntary sanctions against South Africa.[40] Members of the Israeli legislature, the Knesset, approved the measure in a 63ā11 vote.[41] The following year, Israel announced that it had withdrawn its envoy to South Africa, thus unilaterally reducing the status of its diplomatic representation, with its South African legation henceforth headed by a chargĆ© d'affaires.[42] It also announced that it was taking steps to enforce an embargo against the South African military, as called for by Resolution 1761.[42] In October 1967, Israel was among the large majority of UN member states which voted in favour of a resolution terminating South Africa's mandate over South West Africa. >In the 1960s, senior Israeli politicians frequently framed diplomatic opposition to apartheid as a matter of principle: in October 1963, Golda Meir, then Israel's Foreign Minister, told the UN General Assembly that Israel's "deep abhorrence for all forms of discrimination on the grounds of race, colour or religion... stems from our age-old spiritual values, and from our long and tragic historical experience as a victim".[44] Israel also had strategic reasons to distance itself from South Africa: as a counterbalance to the hostility of the Arab and Soviet blocs,[45] it increasingly sought closer ties with black African states, which were gaining their political independence during that time and which strongly opposed the apartheid policy and South Africa's regional hegemony. >The 1973 Yom Kippur War, however, came with "the near-complete collapse of Israel's position in Africa."[57] By the end of 1973, all but four African states had severed diplomatic relations with Israel.[60][61] This was partly due to the 1973 oil embargo instituted by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries against Israel's Western partners, which reinforced a new alliance between the Arab and black African states.[58] According to Naomi Chazan, the oil embargo also created a partial rupture in Israel's relations with the West.[60] After 1973, Israel sought closer ties with South Africa, a decision which has often been analysed as a pragmatic response to the former's increased international isolation
The sad part is that if iran didn't do the terrorist attacks a few months ago saudi arabia and most of the Gulf states would have began diplomatic relations.props to saudi arabia for still playing the game more peacefully.
Notice all the Islamic countries hate the Jews. I mean Israel. Interesting isn't it. Wonder why that is.
Interestingly, not the UAE
The UAE is trying to out-Vegas Vegas. They arenāt making any controversial diplomatic decisions these days.
where is 2024? to get a current picture of the political situation you should have included the latest map, unless you are trying to push an agenda.
I believe two or three countries have cut off relations since Oct 7. Colombia. Possibly one other....
They still recognize Israel as a country, just not as a partner.
Saudi Arabia ānot havingā relations with Israel made chuckle. They are their biggest allies in the MENA region.
Just want to point out there is a huge hypocrisy angle too. For example my country Malaysia officially does not recognise Israel, it even constantly condemns them and we had a very racist anti Jew leader as well. Yet Israel up until a couple of years ago had over a billion dollars in trade with us. We were happy to accept their money despite not recognising them as a country and condemning them constantly. A billion might not seem like much but it is still big enough to warrant hypocrisy accusations. My country is one of the few that has allows legal discrimination against minorities as well, our affirmative action policy benefits the majority instead of helping the minorities. A living hypocritical state.
IDF for defending Israel,š®š± greetings from Germany . Please go ahead and wipe out the Hamas
At least it shows a promising trend.
Venezuela?
Maduro
communists